It's easy and perhaps cathartic to rant against the government for the state of Brexit.
The problem is that Brexit is not doable, any government would be in the same mess.
A complex change is one that is likely to become chaotic. Brexit is demonstrably and objectively off the scale for complexity. Therefore, it is and was always going to be chaotic.
The third or fourth country with no regional assemblies leaving the EU, taking several years and going through a number of transitional phases might just about avoid chaos. Brexit is none of those.
If blame is to be sought, it should be given to those who understated the impending complexity. Or maybe to those who were hyperbolic in their threats of chaos. You take your pick.
Where do we go from here? Revert to the status quo or make sufficient concessions to secure a very gradual withdrawal.
Food standards probably didn't appear on the list because the vast majority of voters had no idea what on earth the EU did and why. The Blue Flag clean beach thing would be another. Pro-Europeans bear a heavy responsibility for not explaining the positives over the years.
I remember a vox pox being conducted by I think Sky somewhere in Wales, were a few young people said the EU had done nothing for them or Wales.
They were stood outside an apprenticeship training centre (which they used) that had been built with EU structural funds.
Perhaps the young people you saw were bright enough to know that the EU funds were in fact UK taxpayers' money.
What annoys me the remainers is they paint an idealised picture of the EU. The bureaucracy is clearly not the land of milk and honey. Yet they talk it's like we're leaving the garden of Eden.
Brexiteers are worse. They totally overlook that he Westminster/Whitehall system is broken, has been for years and has proven its ability to resist reform. It is an ivory tower unfit to meet the needs of the British people. It has let us down consistently for decades. Yet Brexiteers cast it as a vibrant democracy, Another Eden.
Rock and hard place.
I'd happily campaign to reform parliament, including abolishing the lords, cutting MPs to 300 and axing county councils.
F1: practice underway. On the BBC livefeed I saw this: "Objections are based on aesthetics and philosophy, not safety. After that, people have to make up their own minds."
Sent a couple of tweets asking the chap who wrote it about the doubling of cockpit evacuation times following the halo's planned inclusion. He's either unaware, or that line is quite misleading.
I'm still fairly neutral on the halo, but overlooking a serious detriment is just presenting a false picture.
Mike and Jonathan nicely demonstrating the two contradictory sides of the Remoaner line on Brexit and the economy today.
Another Brextremist.
If the last few years have shown anything, it is surely that Europeanism is the extreme position.
Some think having a say in setting the technical rules in a larger supranational regulatory regime is worth it economically, notwithstanding any of the political consequences, which a sub-set of them welcome anyway.
Others think that having a minor say in making those technical rules, increasingly as a peripheral member, isn't worth the political implications, and greater principles of democracy are at stake in any event, and believe the economic consequences to be over-hyped.
Both sides hurl accusations of extremism against each other, according to their own priorities and values.
Senior Whitehall figures suggested, however, that the British were unlikely to cave in to the EU’s demands by providing detail on the financial settlement this summer.
The UK negotiating team further feel that they do not need to provide matching position papers in order for talks to be successful. “That might be what they want, but that’s not what is going to happen”, the source said.
And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.
52% ain't the tory right
52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
I wouldn't be so sure about that.
The electorate don't tend to like unnecessary elections or a bad loser.
So you don't think that Brexit is a fiasco that's making us all poorer? Brexit will do to the Tories what the corn laws did in the 19th century.
I don't think so, no.
I think you're totally obsessed with it, and need to get a grip.
I'm sure that not everybody will be worse off when we leave but who has most to gain over the next ten years, i assume lawyers and ex politicians will but who else?
The EU yesterday moving to take sanctions against Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic for refusing to help mitigate German migration policy shows just what direction it's going in. As do their broader moves against Poland.
Absolutely delighted we're leaving.
To equivocate a little, yes and no.
The issue of the 160,000 or so migrants in Italy and Greece isn't, like the migrants, going to go away and there are plenty of reports about the stress it has put on the local economies in these countries and it's entirely understandable Italy and Greece would want other EU countries to play their part and that was "agreed" (under QMV presumably) in 2015.
The EU functions (presumably) on the basis that all the club members respect the decisions - now we know this doesn't happen and one of the things that annoyed the British for years was the inconsistent handling of transgression within the EU. Some countries seemed to be punished for the slightest deviation while others got away with flagrant breaches.
The problem is, there are more migrants coming from sub-Saharan Africa through the power vacuum that is Libya and trying to cross the Med in basically anything that usually won't float.
Leaving the EU isn't going to make the problem go away for us and even if we're not in the EU it's a problem that involves us and should concern us and about which we should get involved.
I don't have any answers or rather any practical ones - one thing I do know is pretending it's all Europe's problem isn't an answer.
As I keep saying, you lost, either suck it up or change direction, it ain't working.
That's it?
That's the reasoned debate we have come to expect from the Brexiteers...
"The reason we don't need food trading standards is Leave won the referendum. Neener, neener"
Yes that's it actually, we had a reasoned debate and Leave won.
For the umpteenth time I invite you to make a positive case for us to rejoin the EU. In the meantime, in the list of priorities that included immigration, sovereignty, cost etc please tell me where food trading standards appeared on the list.
You're not waving you're drowning.
Is it listening to Philip Hammond this morning that has wound you up?
I haven't listened to Philip Hammond and I'm totally relaxed. I'm off to Ascot races with a spring in my step happily watching you lot in denial.
Your arguments and assertions are growing more desperate by the day.
I can tell you're totally relaxed by the tone of your ranting
Food standards probably didn't appear on the list because the vast majority of voters had no idea what on earth the EU did and why. The Blue Flag clean beach thing would be another. Pro-Europeans bear a heavy responsibility for not explaining the positives over the years.
I remember a vox pox being conducted by I think Sky somewhere in Wales, were a few young people said the EU had done nothing for them or Wales.
They were stood outside an apprenticeship training centre (which they used) that had been built with EU structural funds.
Perhaps the young people you saw were bright enough to know that the EU funds were in fact UK taxpayers' money.
Possibly. But then it would not be true to say that the EU has done nothing for their area, even if it was UK money. I doubt it though. I think they genuinely had absolutely no idea who built the building or why.
Even it was recycled UK money, a point most Leavers don't get, is that the centralised, Westminster dominated government in UK would not have been doing these things in the regions. Look at all the EU structural funds money that went into former coalfields of Derbyshire and S Yorks for example. Or new roads in the Highlands and Islands.
Perhaps the young people you saw were bright enough to know that the EU funds were in fact UK taxpayers' money.
Smart cookies! I wonder if they considered how much of that UK tax is directly attributable to membership of the EU? For instance, how much of the £70 billion of tax from the City will be at risk if we kill the golden goose?
As I keep saying, you lost, either suck it up or change direction, it ain't working.
That's it?
That's the reasoned debate we have come to expect from the Brexiteers...
"The reason we don't need food trading standards is Leave won the referendum. Neener, neener"
Yes that's it actually, we had a reasoned debate and Leave won.
For the umpteenth time I invite you to make a positive case for us to rejoin the EU. In the meantime, in the list of priorities that included immigration, sovereignty, cost etc please tell me where food trading standards appeared on the list.
You're not waving you're drowning.
Food standards probably didn't appear on the list because the vast majority of voters had no idea what on earth the EU did and why. The Blue Flag clean beach thing would be another. Pro-Europeans bear a heavy responsibility for not explaining the positives over the years.
I remember a vox pox being conducted by I think Sky somewhere in Wales, were a few young people said the EU had done nothing for them or Wales.
They were stood outside an apprenticeship training centre (which they used) that had been built with EU structural funds.
EU structural funds using UK money.
Just how naïve do you expect voters to be?
Part of the EU political project is using member state contributions to implement a Europe-wide regional policy that undermines national identities in favour of regional ones that owe fealty to Brussels.
It's easy and perhaps cathartic to rant against the government for the state of Brexit.
The problem is that Brexit is not doable, any government would be in the same mess.
A complex change is one that is likely to become chaotic. Brexit is demonstrably and objectively off the scale for complexity. Therefore, it is and was always going to be chaotic.
The third or fourth country with no regional assemblies leaving the EU, taking several years and going through a number of transitional phases might just about avoid chaos. Brexit is none of those.
If blame is to be sought, it should be given to those who understated the impending complexity. Or maybe to those who were hyperbolic in their threats of chaos. You take your pick.
Where do we go from here? Revert to the status quo or make sufficient concessions to secure a very gradual withdrawal.
We recently introduced a system into our company where decisions are not made by those at the top of the tree but those with the best knowledge of the issue. Our politicians desperately want to make decisions to show they are strong but are no where near the best person to make the decision they talk about. They are getting destroyed on detail.
In my sector the medical device industry the best decision is to stick with the status quo. The European regulations are in major transition. The UK is driving many of the changes in Europe and without its input they would become basically German regulations. Leaving the system would add costs as we need to comply with another regulatory body and force us to kowtow to the Germans to get access to Europe.
What annoys me the remainers is they paint an idealised picture of the EU. The bureaucracy is clearly not the land of milk and honey. Yet they talk it's like we're leaving the garden of Eden.
Brexiteers are worse. They totally overlook that he Westminster/Whitehall system is broken, has been for years and has proven its ability to resist reform. It is an ivory tower unfit to meet the needs of the British people. It has let us down consistently for decades. Yet Brexiteers cast it as a vibrant democracy, Another Eden.
Rock and hard place.
In all honesty, Jonathan, it could best be described as a clash of ideologies on both sides: the Europhiles, like Jean Monnet, have their idealistic vision, and brook no argument, and so do some Brexiteers around what the Anglosphere could become.
Both sides have some obsessions with the myths and legacies of WWII, even more than 70 years on.
The critical error is a refusal to compromise, and the UK/EU political fissures simply became too great to bridge, so we took the nuclear option.
As I keep saying, you lost, either suck it up or change direction, it ain't working.
That's it?
That's the reasoned debate we have come to expect from the Brexiteers...
"The reason we don't need food trading standards is Leave won the referendum. Neener, neener"
Yes that's it actually, we had a reasoned debate and Leave won.
For the umpteenth time I invite you to make a positive case for us to rejoin the EU. In the meantime, in the list of priorities that included immigration, sovereignty, cost etc please tell me where food trading standards appeared on the list.
You're not waving you're drowning.
Is it listening to Philip Hammond this morning that has wound you up?
I haven't listened to Philip Hammond and I'm totally relaxed. I'm off to Ascot races with a spring in my step happily watching you lot in denial.
Your arguments and assertions are growing more desperate by the day.
I can tell you're totally relaxed by the tone of your ranting
My dear boy, even arch deniers like you can see the ranting is coming only from the tiny minority of deluded remainers.
I can't ever remember feeling this content. I'll be indulging in the ultimate free market, walking round the betting ring at a racecourse.
We are in phase 10 of the remain in the EU panic side which is corn laws,tories gone from government for a generation,immigration controls may take a little longer and the country/economy is fcuked.
What annoys me the remainers is they paint an idealised picture of the EU. The bureaucracy is clearly not the land of milk and honey. Yet they talk it's like we're leaving the garden of Eden.
Brexiteers are worse. They totally overlook that he Westminster/Whitehall system is broken, has been for years and has proven its ability to resist reform. It is an ivory tower unfit to meet the needs of the British people. It has let us down consistently for decades. Yet Brexiteers cast it as a vibrant democracy, Another Eden.
Rock and hard place.
Leaving though gives us a chance to do something about the Westminster/Whitehall system (along with a whole host of other things). Whether we are capable of taking this opportunity is another matter.
As I keep saying, you lost, either suck it up or change direction, it ain't working.
That's it?
That's the reasoned debate we have come to expect from the Brexiteers...
"The reason we don't need food trading standards is Leave won the referendum. Neener, neener"
Yes that's it actually, we had a reasoned debate and Leave won.
For the umpteenth time I invite you to make a positive case for us to rejoin the EU. In the meantime, in the list of priorities that included immigration, sovereignty, cost etc please tell me where food trading standards appeared on the list.
You're not waving you're drowning.
Is it listening to Philip Hammond this morning that has wound you up?
I haven't listened to Philip Hammond and I'm totally relaxed. I'm off to Ascot races with a spring in my step happily watching you lot in denial.
Your arguments and assertions are growing more desperate by the day.
Leaving though gives us a chance to do something about the Westminster/Whitehall system (along with a whole host of other things). Whether we are capable of taking this opportunity is another matter.
In all the decades of stalled or fudged constitutional reforms in the UK, I don't think it occurred to anyone that they could have used the excuse that we needed to leave the EU first before we could change anything.
Republican senators can thank their lucky star in the form of John McCain, while publicly piling opprobrium on him, for killing off an Obamacare repeal that everyone knows to be a disaster.
We are in phase 10 of the remain in the EU panic side which is corn laws,tories gone from government for a generation,immigration controls may take a little longer and the country/economy is fcuked.
Nazis, Ku Klux Klan, the Confederacy, Cancer, 1914 and the outbreak WW1, appeasement, and echoes of the holocaust.
I'm not sure where you go from there.. Genghis Khan? The siege of Carthage? The Borg?
When your opponents have to resort to such hyberbole, it tells you an awful lot.
Mike and Jonathan nicely demonstrating the two contradictory sides of the Remoaner line on Brexit and the economy today.
The EU yesterday moving to take sanctions against Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic for refusing to help mitigate German migration policy shows just what direction it's going in. As do their broader moves against Poland.
What annoys me the remainers is they paint an idealised picture of the EU. The bureaucracy is clearly not the land of milk and honey. Yet they talk it's like we're leaving the garden of Eden.
Brexiteers are worse. They totally overlook that he Westminster/Whitehall system is broken, has been for years and has proven its ability to resist reform. It is an ivory tower unfit to meet the needs of the British people. It has let us down consistently for decades. Yet Brexiteers cast it as a vibrant democracy, Another Eden.
Rock and hard place.
Leaving though gives us a chance to do something about the Westminster/Whitehall system (along with a whole host of other things). Whether we are capable of taking this opportunity is another matter.
I agree with that. Westminster needs serious reform.
Mike and Jonathan nicely demonstrating the two contradictory sides of the Remoaner line on Brexit and the economy today.
The EU yesterday moving to take sanctions against Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic for refusing to help mitigate German migration policy shows just what direction it's going in. As do their broader moves against Poland.
Absolutely delighted we're leaving.
That Farage poster was bang on the money.
The broader moves against Poland are precisely why I am in favour of the EU - it is attempting to stop a democracy sliding into authoritarian control.
Mike and Jonathan nicely demonstrating the two contradictory sides of the Remoaner line on Brexit and the economy today.
The EU yesterday moving to take sanctions against Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic for refusing to help mitigate German migration policy shows just what direction it's going in. As do their broader moves against Poland.
Absolutely delighted we're leaving.
That Farage poster was bang on the money.
The broader moves against Poland are precisely why I am in favour of the EU - it is attempting to stop a democracy sliding into authoritarian control.
I don't know much about the situation in Poland, but I don't consider it our responsibility to foster democracy around the world.
What annoys me the remainers is they paint an idealised picture of the EU. The bureaucracy is clearly not the land of milk and honey. Yet they talk it's like we're leaving the garden of Eden.
Brexiteers are worse. They totally overlook that he Westminster/Whitehall system is broken, has been for years and has proven its ability to resist reform. It is an ivory tower unfit to meet the needs of the British people. It has let us down consistently for decades. Yet Brexiteers cast it as a vibrant democracy, Another Eden.
Rock and hard place.
Leaving though gives us a chance to do something about the Westminster/Whitehall system (along with a whole host of other things). Whether we are capable of taking this opportunity is another matter.
Very true. I also agree with Jonathan that "the Westminster/Whitehall system is broken". In the post EU world for the UK our politicians will have lost a place to blame for their ineffectiveness.
As I keep saying, you lost, either suck it up or change direction, it ain't working.
That's it?
That's the reasoned debate we have come to expect from the Brexiteers...
"The reason we don't need food trading standards is Leave won the referendum. Neener, neener"
Yes that's it actually, we had a reasoned debate and Leave won.
For the umpteenth time I invite you to make a positive case for us to rejoin the EU. In the meantime, in the list of priorities that included immigration, sovereignty, cost etc please tell me where food trading standards appeared on the list.
You're not waving you're drowning.
Is it listening to Philip Hammond this morning that has wound you up?
I haven't listened to Philip Hammond and I'm totally relaxed. I'm off to Ascot races with a spring in my step happily watching you lot in denial.
Your arguments and assertions are growing more desperate by the day.
My wife and I are going tomorrow.
Looking forward to it.
Yes big day tomorrow, less crowded today.
Hoping for some winners to buy a cave when Brexit hits home ;-)
Mike and Jonathan nicely demonstrating the two contradictory sides of the Remoaner line on Brexit and the economy today.
The EU yesterday moving to take sanctions against Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic for refusing to help mitigate German migration policy shows just what direction it's going in. As do their broader moves against Poland.
Absolutely delighted we're leaving.
That Farage poster was bang on the money.
The broader moves against Poland are precisely why I am in favour of the EU - it is attempting to stop a democracy sliding into authoritarian control.
I don't know much about the situation in Poland, but I don't consider it our responsibility to foster democracy around the world.
Republican senators can thank their lucky star in the form of John McCain, while publicly piling opprobrium on him, for killing off an Obamacare repeal that everyone knows to be a disaster.
As I keep saying, you lost, either suck it up or change direction, it ain't working.
That's it?
That's the reasoned debate we have come to expect from the Brexiteers...
"The reason we don't need food trading standards is Leave won the referendum. Neener, neener"
Yes that's it actually, we had a reasoned debate and Leave won.
For the umpteenth time I invite you to make a positive case for us to rejoin the EU. In the meantime, in the list of priorities that included immigration, sovereignty, cost etc please tell me where food trading standards appeared on the list.
You're not waving you're drowning.
Is it listening to Philip Hammond this morning that has wound you up?
I haven't listened to Philip Hammond and I'm totally relaxed. I'm off to Ascot races with a spring in my step happily watching you lot in denial.
Your arguments and assertions are growing more desperate by the day.
My wife and I are going tomorrow.
Looking forward to it.
One of my odder experiences as an MP was being asked if I could get two constituents tickets for IIRC the Royal enclosure for a special anniversary. I scratched my head and asked Nicholas Soames if he could advise. He arranged it without fuss - I always had a soft spot for him after that. It's an example of the quiet amiability that most MPs have towards each other in private.
Leaving though gives us a chance to do something about the Westminster/Whitehall system (along with a whole host of other things). Whether we are capable of taking this opportunity is another matter.
In all the decades of stalled or fudged constitutional reforms in the UK, I don't think it occurred to anyone that they could have used the excuse that we needed to leave the EU first before we could change anything.
That would seem to be obvious. In fact Brexit will be so all consuming, we will hardly have the time, the resources or, most importantly, the mindset to tackle any of our real problems.
Leaving though gives us a chance to do something about the Westminster/Whitehall system (along with a whole host of other things). Whether we are capable of taking this opportunity is another matter.
In all the decades of stalled or fudged constitutional reforms in the UK, I don't think it occurred to anyone that they could have used the excuse that we needed to leave the EU first before we could change anything.
But it was an excuse to other non constitutional changes. Outside the EU and then with "the buck stops here" in Westminster becoming a fact, it will bring more pressure for improvements at Westminster.
"How do you see the process from where you are now to where you want to be? Because whatever you want to do, there's not only what you want to do, but the practical way you see it coming about."
We are in phase 10 of the remain in the EU panic side which is corn laws,tories gone from government for a generation,immigration controls may take a little longer and the country/economy is fcuked.
Nazis, Ku Klux Klan, the Confederacy, Cancer, 1914 and the outbreak WW1, appeasement, and echoes of the holocaust.
I'm not sure where you go from there.. Genghis Khan? The siege of Carthage? The Borg?
When your opponents have to resort to such hyberbole, it tells you an awful lot.
Brexit supporters would do better to listen, address concerns and meet people half way.
Instead we get deaf ears, platitudes and ideological zeal.
As I keep saying, you lost, either suck it up or change direction, it ain't working.
That's it?
That's the reasoned debate we have come to expect from the Brexiteers...
"The reason we don't need food trading standards is Leave won the referendum. Neener, neener"
Yes that's it actually, we had a reasoned debate and Leave won.
For the umpteenth time I invite you to make a positive case for us to rejoin the EU. In the meantime, in the list of priorities that included immigration, sovereignty, cost etc please tell me where food trading standards appeared on the list.
You're not waving you're drowning.
Is it listening to Philip Hammond this morning that has wound you up?
I haven't listened to Philip Hammond and I'm totally relaxed. I'm off to Ascot races with a spring in my step happily watching you lot in denial.
Your arguments and assertions are growing more desperate by the day.
My wife and I are going tomorrow.
Looking forward to it.
One of my odder experiences as an MP was being asked if I could get two constituents tickets for IIRC the Royal enclosure for a special anniversary. I scratched my head and asked Nicholas Soames if he could advise. He arranged it without fuss - I always had a soft spot for him after that. It's an example of the quiet amiability that most MPs have towards each other in private.
If I may be so bold were there any MPs to whom that didn't apply ?
As I keep saying, you lost, either suck it up or change direction, it ain't working.
That's it?
That's the reasoned debate we have come to expect from the Brexiteers...
"The reason we don't need food trading standards is Leave won the referendum. Neener, neener"
Yes that's it actually, we had a reasoned debate and Leave won.
For the umpteenth time I invite you to make a positive case for us to rejoin the EU. In the meantime, in the list of priorities that included immigration, sovereignty, cost etc please tell me where food trading standards appeared on the list.
You're not waving you're drowning.
Is it listening to Philip Hammond this morning that has wound you up?
I haven't listened to Philip Hammond and I'm totally relaxed. I'm off to Ascot races with a spring in my step happily watching you lot in denial.
Your arguments and assertions are growing more desperate by the day.
My wife and I are going tomorrow.
Looking forward to it.
One of my odder experiences as an MP was being asked if I could get two constituents tickets for IIRC the Royal enclosure for a special anniversary. I scratched my head and asked Nicholas Soames if he could advise. He arranged it without fuss - I always had a soft spot for him after that. It's an example of the quiet amiability that most MPs have towards each other in private.
Mike and Jonathan nicely demonstrating the two contradictory sides of the Remoaner line on Brexit and the economy today.
The EU yesterday moving to take sanctions against Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic for refusing to help mitigate German migration policy shows just what direction it's going in. As do their broader moves against Poland.
Absolutely delighted we're leaving.
That Farage poster was bang on the money.
The broader moves against Poland are precisely why I am in favour of the EU - it is attempting to stop a democracy sliding into authoritarian control.
I don't know much about the situation in Poland, but I don't consider it our responsibility to foster democracy around the world.
Blair'sGod's work.
We'll soon know about it half of East Europe becomes in thrall to anti-democratic, non-pluralist populist/nationalist governments and leaders. We have been here before.
I agree with that. Westminster needs serious reform.
Yes and one of the aspects of the A50 negotiations which worries me considerably is the eagerness for Westminster/Whitehall to take back authority in areas which were passed over to the EU.
In some areas this will be valid and understandable but it's also an opportunity for another wave of devolution to return real authority and responsibility to the lower tiers of democracy.
I fear too many in the current Government (and Opposition) are centralisers whose sole motive in wanting us out of the EU is to gain more powers for themselves.
Republican senators can thank their lucky star in the form of John McCain, while publicly piling opprobrium on him, for killing off an Obamacare repeal that everyone knows to be a disaster.
Trump mocked John McCain's war record, but revenge is a dish best served cold.
Did anyone catch Trump's Boy Scout speech yesterday? Beyond satire...
Leaving though gives us a chance to do something about the Westminster/Whitehall system (along with a whole host of other things). Whether we are capable of taking this opportunity is another matter.
In all the decades of stalled or fudged constitutional reforms in the UK, I don't think it occurred to anyone that they could have used the excuse that we needed to leave the EU first before we could change anything.
But it was an excuse to other non constitutional changes. Outside the EU then with "the buck stops here" in Westminster becoming the usual view, it will bring more pressure for improvements at Westminster.
It's such a sad and uninspiring take on the UK, full of fatalism and defeatism in the face of our political class.
You want to tear up 40 years of economic and geopolitical cooperation in order that your own politicians feel a bit more pressure from the public? Surely if you're that cynical you should realise that having learnt the power of blaming the EU, they will not stop once we've left.
Mike and Jonathan nicely demonstrating the two contradictory sides of the Remoaner line on Brexit and the economy today.
The EU yesterday moving to take sanctions against Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic for refusing to help mitigate German migration policy shows just what direction it's going in. As do their broader moves against Poland.
Absolutely delighted we're leaving.
That Farage poster was bang on the money.
The broader moves against Poland are precisely why I am in favour of the EU - it is attempting to stop a democracy sliding into authoritarian control.
I don't know much about the situation in Poland, but I don't consider it our responsibility to foster democracy around the world.
Blair'sGod's work.
We'll soon know about it half of East Europe becomes in thrall to anti-democratic, non-pluralist populist/nationalist governments and leaders. We have been here before.
Putin's fomenting and supporting populist demagogues across the West, from Trump, to Le Pen to Eastern Europe is the diplomatic goal of the decade. Avery high risk of blowback though.
Republican senators can thank their lucky star in the form of John McCain, while publicly piling opprobrium on him, for killing off an Obamacare repeal that everyone knows to be a disaster.
Trump mocked John McCain's war record, but revenge is a dish best served cold.
Did anyone catch Trump's Boy Scout speech yesterday? Beyond satire...
Even more remarkable was the Chief Scout's response to that speech. He listed scout values of honesty, courage, honour, knowing right from wrong and implied Trump was none of those things and that those in audience were better leaders than the incumbent president.
We are in phase 10 of the remain in the EU panic side which is corn laws,tories gone from government for a generation,immigration controls may take a little longer and the country/economy is fcuked.
Nazis, Ku Klux Klan, the Confederacy, Cancer, 1914 and the outbreak WW1, appeasement, and echoes of the holocaust.
I'm not sure where you go from there.. Genghis Khan? The siege of Carthage? The Borg?
When your opponents have to resort to such hyberbole, it tells you an awful lot.
This is what they expected to be talking about now:
' Today, we are setting out our assessment of what would happen in the weeks and months after a vote to Leave on June 23.
It is clear that there would be an immediate and profound shock to our economy.
The analysis produced by the Treasury today shows that a vote to leave will push our economy into a recession that would knock 3.6 per cent off GDP and, over two years, put hundreds of thousands of people out of work right across the country, compared to the forecast for continued growth if we vote to remain in the EU.
In a more severe shock scenario, Treasury economists estimate that our economy could be hit by 6 per cent, there would be a deeper recession and unemployment would rise by even more. '
Perhaps the young people you saw were bright enough to know that the EU funds were in fact UK taxpayers' money.
Smart cookies! I wonder if they considered how much of that UK tax is directly attributable to membership of the EU? For instance, how much of the £70 billion of tax from the City will be at risk if we kill the golden goose?
Lose a £1billion and gain many more £ billions.
We were once told how having the euro was going to be essential to the City.... “Staying out of the Euro will mean progressive economic isolation for Britain. It will mean fewer foreign businesses investing here, fewer good jobs created and less trade being done with our European partners.” – Peter Mandelson, Sunday Mirror, 18 May 2003.
My dear boy, even arch deniers like you can see the ranting is coming only from the tiny minority of deluded remainers.
I can't ever remember feeling this content. I'll be indulging in the ultimate free market, walking round the betting ring at a racecourse.
Enjoy licking that window :-)
If you think a racecourse betting ring is a free market, you don't know much about betting.
Really?
Each bookie lays out his odds, each punter choose whether to bet or not. Oh of course you can talk about big bookies and betfair etc etc but the betting ring, along with ebay, is a perfect example of the free market.
We are in phase 10 of the remain in the EU panic side which is corn laws,tories gone from government for a generation,immigration controls may take a little longer and the country/economy is fcuked.
Nazis, Ku Klux Klan, the Confederacy, Cancer, 1914 and the outbreak WW1, appeasement, and echoes of the holocaust.
I'm not sure where you go from there.. Genghis Khan? The siege of Carthage? The Borg?
When your opponents have to resort to such hyberbole, it tells you an awful lot.
Brexit supporters would do better to listen, address concerns and meet people half way.
Instead we get deaf ears, platitudes and ideological zeal.
If Remain had won how would their supporters have listened, addressed concerns and met people half way ?
Perhaps the young people you saw were bright enough to know that the EU funds were in fact UK taxpayers' money.
Smart cookies! I wonder if they considered how much of that UK tax is directly attributable to membership of the EU? For instance, how much of the £70 billion of tax from the City will be at risk if we kill the golden goose?
Lose a £1billion and gain many more £ billions.
We were once told how having the euro was going to be essential to the City.... “Staying out of the Euro will mean progressive economic isolation for Britain. It will mean fewer foreign businesses investing here, fewer good jobs created and less trade being done with our European partners.” – Peter Mandelson, Sunday Mirror, 18 May 2003.
We are in phase 10 of the remain in the EU panic side which is corn laws,tories gone from government for a generation,immigration controls may take a little longer and the country/economy is fcuked.
Nazis, Ku Klux Klan, the Confederacy, Cancer, 1914 and the outbreak WW1, appeasement, and echoes of the holocaust.
I'm not sure where you go from there.. Genghis Khan? The siege of Carthage? The Borg?
When your opponents have to resort to such hyberbole, it tells you an awful lot.
This is what they expected to be talking about now:
' Today, we are setting out our assessment of what would happen in the weeks and months after a vote to Leave on June 23.
It is clear that there would be an immediate and profound shock to our economy.
The analysis produced by the Treasury today shows that a vote to leave will push our economy into a recession that would knock 3.6 per cent off GDP and, over two years, put hundreds of thousands of people out of work right across the country, compared to the forecast for continued growth if we vote to remain in the EU.
In a more severe shock scenario, Treasury economists estimate that our economy could be hit by 6 per cent, there would be a deeper recession and unemployment would rise by even more. '
We are in phase 10 of the remain in the EU panic side which is corn laws,tories gone from government for a generation,immigration controls may take a little longer and the country/economy is fcuked.
Nazis, Ku Klux Klan, the Confederacy, Cancer, 1914 and the outbreak WW1, appeasement, and echoes of the holocaust.
I'm not sure where you go from there.. Genghis Khan? The siege of Carthage? The Borg?
When your opponents have to resort to such hyberbole, it tells you an awful lot.
Brexit supporters would do better to listen, address concerns and meet people half way.
Instead we get deaf ears, platitudes and ideological zeal.
If Remain had won how would their supporters have listened, addressed concerns and met people half way ?
I don't recall much of that before July 2016.
Of course the PM, Chancellor, Home Secretary, Defence Secretary, Health Secretary, Education Secretary etc were all Remain supporters.
Or aren't they the 'right' sort of Remain supporters ?
F1: ha. Decided against backing Bottas at over 9, he's currently fastest chap (only practice, but I'd still expect his price to decline if that remains the case).
We are in phase 10 of the remain in the EU panic side which is corn laws,tories gone from government for a generation,immigration controls may take a little longer and the country/economy is fcuked.
Nazis, Ku Klux Klan, the Confederacy, Cancer, 1914 and the outbreak WW1, appeasement, and echoes of the holocaust.
I'm not sure where you go from there.. Genghis Khan? The siege of Carthage? The Borg?
When your opponents have to resort to such hyberbole, it tells you an awful lot.
Brexit supporters would do better to listen, address concerns and meet people half way.
Instead we get deaf ears, platitudes and ideological zeal.
If Remain had won how would their supporters have listened, addressed concerns and met people half way ?
We are in phase 10 of the remain in the EU panic side which is corn laws,tories gone from government for a generation,immigration controls may take a little longer and the country/economy is fcuked.
Nazis, Ku Klux Klan, the Confederacy, Cancer, 1914 and the outbreak WW1, appeasement, and echoes of the holocaust.
I'm not sure where you go from there.. Genghis Khan? The siege of Carthage? The Borg?
When your opponents have to resort to such hyberbole, it tells you an awful lot.
Brexit supporters would do better to listen, address concerns and meet people half way.
Instead we get deaf ears, platitudes and ideological zeal.
If Remain had won how would their supporters have listened, addressed concerns and met people half way ?
I don't recall much of that before July 2016.
They didn't win. So we'll never know.
We know what they did about immigration concerns during the previous decade.
Namely tell lies and do nothing.
Were you one of the Labour supporters cheering Gordon Brown's "British Jobs For British Workers" ?
@DanielJHannan: It would surely be logistically easier to treat the British Isles as what it has always been - a single customs area. Checks only at ports.
I'm very relaxed about a transitional arrangement but if the Tories want any chance of winning the next election they need to make it two years rather than three so that we properly leave in 2021 and the Tories can go into the 2022 election with Brexit done.
If it's still dragging on at the next election they'll more than likely be obliterated in 2022.
Re Scaramucci, has anyone read what he's said about Bannon? It was trending on Twitter last night. That New Yorker piece really is extraordinary.
Meanwhile prolife Conservatives aren't happy at all with The Guardian's op-Ed piece on the Charlie Gard case: https://twitter.com/hashtaggriswold/status/889852278148149248 I've seen several on Twitter now use this case as a reason against single payer healthcare.
Each bookie lays out his odds, each punter choose whether to bet or not. Oh of course you can talk about big bookies and betfair etc etc but the betting ring, along with ebay, is a perfect example of the free market.
Nobody HAS to trade, its a choice
It's not a FREE market - the weight of off course money means all the on-course layers trade within a very narrow band. If a horse is on the Coral board at 5/2 it's not going to be 5/1 on the Hills board - it might be 11/4 or 9/4 but it's more likely to be 5/2 and the smaller bookies have no option but to follow the big boys.
You can't walk up to a bookie and say - you're offering that horse at 5/2 but I want to back it at 4/1 and he'll say "okay you can have £500 on 4/1 because I like you". That doesn't happen.
It's also not free because the bookies have finite liabilities - they'll take £500 at 5/2 but if you want £5000 they might let you have £1000 at 5/2 and the rest at 9/4 or 2/1.
In other words, the betting market is controlled by risk management - the bookies don't allow a free betting ring because there is too much risk. Allowing £5 bets and £50,000 bets at the same price without hedging or laying off would be suicide and if any of the smaller bookies tries to draw punters in by offering 3/1 about a 5/2 chance one of the big boys will come down with £10k and force him back to 5/2.
Your so-called free market is tightly controlled and regulated - you may not be aware of it. If you can nick a little value and beat the SP, good luck to you but don't go eulogising it for what it isn't.
@DanielJHannan: It would surely be logistically easier to treat the British Isles as what it has always been - a single customs area. Checks only at ports.
It's all part of the imperial Brexiteer fantasy shared by the likes of Boris and Fox. This should be filed along with the notion that grateful formal colonials are all breathlessly waiting for the Mother Country to break free from the Brussels yoke to lead the English-speaking world once more. Of course, its relationship with reality is entirely non-existent.
Mr. P, two countries that share a land border only with one another are in a rather different situation than dozens of countries with multiple borders.
And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.
52% ain't the tory right
52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
I wouldn't be so sure about that.
The electorate don't tend to like unnecessary elections or a bad loser.
So you don't think that Brexit is a fiasco that's making us all poorer? Brexit will do to the Tories what the corn laws did in the 19th century.
Out of interest, what evidence do you have that Brexit is "making us all poorer"?
Well its cost me about e6,000 in a year due to exchange rates
Conversely it instantly made me about £50,000 richer because I have share options expressed in US dollars.
If we're basing the economic benefits or drawbacks of Brexit on those that apparent so far, 13 months after the vote and 20 months before actual exit, then it's surely clear that it's made some of us richer, some poorer, and in most cases has made no difference.
Mr. P, two countries that share a land border only with one another are in a rather different situation than dozens of countries with multiple borders.
He is arguing that 2 independent countries share Sovereignty over border controls.
But that we shouldn't do the same with other countries.
That's either illogical. or xenophobic. Like the rest of Brexit.
A country asserting its independence from a larger supra-national body is the antithesis of imperialism. We aren't seeking to impose our will on others but to end others imposing their will on us.
Republican senators can thank their lucky star in the form of John McCain, while publicly piling opprobrium on him, for killing off an Obamacare repeal that everyone knows to be a disaster.
What a mess US politics is in.
Apparently moving on to tax reform is going to be difficult for the GOP, now that the Senate 'skinny repeal' has failed.
Mr. P, no. It's more sensible for two countries whose only land border is with one another to agree to work together (if they so wish), rather than have one of those countries have a customs union with 26 countries with whom it has no border, but not with the only country it does.
And what's xenophobic about not wanting to be in the customs union/the EU?
It's ridiculous to assert opposing the EU equates to xenophobia.
Republican senators can thank their lucky star in the form of John McCain, while publicly piling opprobrium on him, for killing off an Obamacare repeal that everyone knows to be a disaster.
Yes - I suspect McCain has saved Trump/Republicans from electoral disaster.
What I'm not clear on is why Trump doesn't push for a repeal bill which does very little (maybe withdraws health insurance from transgender people for instance), gets it passed and then declares victory.
@The_Apocalypse - whilst I'm not impressed with some of the stuff that's gone in the Charlie Gard case, and I think the parents are misguided, I think the Left need to be a bit careful here.
It's worth remembering that there are cases where doctors get it wrong (the Ashya King case is an example of this). If I was GOSH I'd have told them, "okay, you sort out the necessary arrangements, and get on with it." But I guess that's why I'm not a doctor!
Furthermore, we only have to look at issues like FGM to realise that the state is happy to let things happen when intervening is seen as being too difficult.
@DanielJHannan: It would surely be logistically easier to treat the British Isles as what it has always been - a single customs area. Checks only at ports.
It's all part of the imperial Brexiteer fantasy shared by the likes of Boris and Fox. This should be filed along with the notion that grateful formal colonials are all breathlessly waiting for the Mother Country to break free from the Brussels yoke to lead the English-speaking world once more. Of course, its relationship with reality is entirely non-existent.
Where is Cromwell* nowadays when we need him to subdue these rebellious Irish once again?
Is he sleeping, like Arthur, to arise at our hour of need?
*Also fought other foreigners too. Other enemies are available.
A country asserting its independence from a larger supra-national body is the antithesis of imperialism. We aren't seeking to impose our will on others but to end others imposing their will on us.
A coterie of well spoken, articulate, rather stupid former public schoolboys has a fantasy that we can reignite Empire 2.0 once we break free from the tyranny of Brussels that has held us under its oppressive yoke for 40 years. We will bring the Irish back into the fold and across the world former colonies will look again to the Mother Country to lead as they form orderly queues to do trade deals the likes of which have never been seen before. It's post-modern imperialism, is based upon delusion and is set to cause long-lasting damage to this country's interests. But boys will be boys and must play their games.
The Senate republicans, except for three, all look as if they have faces like smacked arses. Mitch McConnell looked like a constipated owl.
It's interesting how often those one disagrees with politically are also grotesquely ugly. As you note, Senate Republicans are so hideous that most verge on looking deformed. Many Tories likewise find Diane Abbott or John Prescott to be fat, ugly, and ignorant-looking.
These are important challenges and such people should be held up to derision and made to explain themselves - as indeed should fat or unattractive women in all walks of life. The real reason for the BBC gender pay gap is that it is deserved. By and large its women are ugly and thus deserving of scorn and poor pay.
@The_Apocalypse - whilst I'm not impressed with some of the stuff that's gone in the Charlie Gard case, and I think the parents are misguided, I think the Left need to be a bit careful here.
It's worth remembering that there are cases where doctors get it wrong (the Ashya King case is an example of this). If I was GOSH I'd have told them, "okay, you sort out the necessary arrangements, and get on with it." But I guess that's why I'm not a doctor!
Furthermore, we only have to look at issues like FGM to realise that the state is happy to let things happen when intervening is seen as being too difficult.
Don't get me wrong I don't think doctors are infallible, although I must admit I find it difficult to understand/find common ground with the perspectives of prolife Conservatives on the Charlie Gard case and more generally.
Re FGM - all that I've read suggests that the government is keen to intervene to stop FGM from happening. But I'll search Google now on the matter to get more info on what you're saying is the case.
Boris's decline is surely an allegory of Brexit itself. The fun and frolics have all gone out of it, and everyone is now looking on with deadly seriousness if not trepidation.
Mr. Observer, was that empire nonsense not used in derisive terms by civil servants who then leaked it to the press? Who has actually spoken in serious terms of such a thing?
None, only the derisory comments of pro-EU types come out with it.
Free Trade was just another expression of British Imperialism, as with our Navy we could strangle others trade routes. Even then we set the rules so that within the Empire, native industries were pushed aside by British ones.
Republican senators can thank their lucky star in the form of John McCain, while publicly piling opprobrium on him, for killing off an Obamacare repeal that everyone knows to be a disaster.
Yes - I suspect McCain has saved Trump/Republicans from electoral disaster.
What I'm not clear on is why Trump doesn't push for a repeal bill which does very little (maybe withdraws health insurance from transgender people for instance), gets it passed and then declares victory.
Not sure about that: trying to do that was bad enough for the moderates, and the crazies are pissed off.
On your second point, a bill like that won't pass because there are a couple of GOP senators who wouldn't vote for it. And Trump will declare victory anyway like a crazy person.
@The_Apocalypse - whilst I'm not impressed with some of the stuff that's gone in the Charlie Gard case, and I think the parents are misguided, I think the Left need to be a bit careful here.
It's worth remembering that there are cases where doctors get it wrong (the Ashya King case is an example of this). If I was GOSH I'd have told them, "okay, you sort out the necessary arrangements, and get on with it." But I guess that's why I'm not a doctor!
Furthermore, we only have to look at issues like FGM to realise that the state is happy to let things happen when intervening is seen as being too difficult.
Would be interesting to know how much money this case has cost GOSH both in terms of the extended court action and donors pulling the plug.
I know someone who was a donor to GOSH for years but cancelled her subscription a couple of months ago over the way she thought GOSH was bullying the parents of Charlie.
So far she's had two letters and one phone call trying to get get to reinstate her donations...
A country asserting its independence from a larger supra-national body is the antithesis of imperialism. We aren't seeking to impose our will on others but to end others imposing their will on us.
A coterie of well spoken, articulate, rather stupid former public schoolboys has a fantasy that we can reignite Empire 2.0 once we break free from the tyranny of Brussels that has held us under its oppressive yoke for 40 years. We will bring the Irish back into the fold and across the world former colonies will look again to the Mother Country to lead as they form orderly queues to do trade deals the likes of which have never been seen before. It's post-modern imperialism, is based upon delusion and is set to cause long-lasting damage to this country's interests. But boys will be boys and must play their games.
Mr. Observer, was that empire nonsense not used in derisive terms by civil servants who then leaked it to the press? Who has actually spoken in serious terms of such a thing?
None, only the derisory comments of pro-EU types come out with it.
Yep, it is nonsense. But it is a clear driver of the "intellectual" (:-D) Brexit wing - some of whose main members - Lilico and Hannan spring to mind - are themselves colonial boys. I mean, look at the background to Dan's Twitter feed: https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan
Comments
The problem is that Brexit is not doable, any government would be in the same mess.
A complex change is one that is likely to become chaotic. Brexit is demonstrably and objectively off the scale for complexity. Therefore, it is and was always going to be chaotic.
The third or fourth country with no regional assemblies leaving the EU, taking several years and going through a number of transitional phases might just about avoid chaos. Brexit is none of those.
If blame is to be sought, it should be given to those who understated the impending complexity. Or maybe to those who were hyperbolic in their threats of chaos. You take your pick.
Where do we go from here? Revert to the status quo or make sufficient concessions to secure a very gradual withdrawal.
The Private Eye front page:
'Where to, guv?'
'1957 and step on it'
increasingly sums up real life.
In other words, the May govt. seeks to take us back to before not just the EEC but before EFTA.
EFTA/1960 was a UK creation, i.e. economic and not political.
On Today, Philip Hammond dodged the accusation that Brexit = a damage limitation exercise. But it's true. He's outnumbered by headbangers.
Food standards probably didn't appear on the list because the vast majority of voters had no idea what on earth the EU did and why. The Blue Flag clean beach thing would be another. Pro-Europeans bear a heavy responsibility for not explaining the positives over the years.
I remember a vox pox being conducted by I think Sky somewhere in Wales, were a few young people said the EU had done nothing for them or Wales.
They were stood outside an apprenticeship training centre (which they used) that had been built with EU structural funds.
Perhaps the young people you saw were bright enough to know that the EU funds were in fact UK taxpayers' money.
This is off the scale stuff:
" “Reince is a fucking paranoid schizophrenic, a paranoiac,” Scaramucci said."
http://www.newyorker.com/news/ryan-lizza/anthony-scaramucci-called-me-to-unload-about-white-house-leakers-reince-priebus-and-steve-bannon
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/27/anthony-scaramucci-white-house-reince-priebus-steve-bannon
Sent a couple of tweets asking the chap who wrote it about the doubling of cockpit evacuation times following the halo's planned inclusion. He's either unaware, or that line is quite misleading.
I'm still fairly neutral on the halo, but overlooking a serious detriment is just presenting a false picture.
Others think that having a minor say in making those technical rules, increasingly as a peripheral member, isn't worth the political implications, and greater principles of democracy are at stake in any event, and believe the economic consequences to be over-hyped.
Both sides hurl accusations of extremism against each other, according to their own priorities and values.
Senior Whitehall figures suggested, however, that the British were unlikely to cave in to the EU’s demands by providing detail on the financial settlement this summer.
The UK negotiating team further feel that they do not need to provide matching position papers in order for talks to be successful. “That might be what they want, but that’s not what is going to happen”, the source said.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/27/early-talks-on-post-brexit-trade-deal-increasingly-unlikely
The issue of the 160,000 or so migrants in Italy and Greece isn't, like the migrants, going to go away and there are plenty of reports about the stress it has put on the local economies in these countries and it's entirely understandable Italy and Greece would want other EU countries to play their part and that was "agreed" (under QMV presumably) in 2015.
The EU functions (presumably) on the basis that all the club members respect the decisions - now we know this doesn't happen and one of the things that annoyed the British for years was the inconsistent handling of transgression within the EU. Some countries seemed to be punished for the slightest deviation while others got away with flagrant breaches.
The problem is, there are more migrants coming from sub-Saharan Africa through the power vacuum that is Libya and trying to cross the Med in basically anything that usually won't float.
Leaving the EU isn't going to make the problem go away for us and even if we're not in the EU it's a problem that involves us and should concern us and about which we should get involved.
I don't have any answers or rather any practical ones - one thing I do know is pretending it's all Europe's problem isn't an answer.
https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/890804127260958720
Even it was recycled UK money, a point most Leavers don't get, is that the centralised, Westminster dominated government in UK would not have been doing these things in the regions. Look at all the EU structural funds money that went into former coalfields of Derbyshire and S Yorks for example. Or new roads in the Highlands and Islands.
Just how naïve do you expect voters to be?
Part of the EU political project is using member state contributions to implement a Europe-wide regional policy that undermines national identities in favour of regional ones that owe fealty to Brussels.
In my sector the medical device industry the best decision is to stick with the status quo. The European regulations are in major transition. The UK is driving many of the changes in Europe and without its input they would become basically German regulations. Leaving the system would add costs as we need to comply with another regulatory body and force us to kowtow to the Germans to get access to Europe.
Both sides have some obsessions with the myths and legacies of WWII, even more than 70 years on.
The critical error is a refusal to compromise, and the UK/EU political fissures simply became too great to bridge, so we took the nuclear option.
There is no going back.
I can't ever remember feeling this content. I'll be indulging in the ultimate free market, walking round the betting ring at a racecourse.
Enjoy licking that window :-)
Looking forward to it.
I'm not sure where you go from there.. Genghis Khan? The siege of Carthage? The Borg?
When your opponents have to resort to such hyberbole, it tells you an awful lot.
Hoping for some winners to buy a cave when Brexit hits home ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cADKFsQRl2s
If only the Brexiteers had heeded her advice:
"How do you see the process from where you are now to where you want to be? Because whatever you want to do, there's not only what you want to do, but the practical way you see it coming about."
Instead we get deaf ears, platitudes and ideological zeal.
In some areas this will be valid and understandable but it's also an opportunity for another wave of devolution to return real authority and responsibility to the lower tiers of democracy.
I fear too many in the current Government (and Opposition) are centralisers whose sole motive in wanting us out of the EU is to gain more powers for themselves.
Did anyone catch Trump's Boy Scout speech yesterday? Beyond satire...
You want to tear up 40 years of economic and geopolitical cooperation in order that your own politicians feel a bit more pressure from the public? Surely if you're that cynical you should realise that having learnt the power of blaming the EU, they will not stop once we've left.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/pakistan-calibri-font-microsoft-prime-minister-nawaz-sharif-corruption-maryam-sharif-panama-papers-a7841381.html
' Today, we are setting out our assessment of what would happen in the weeks and months after a vote to Leave on June 23.
It is clear that there would be an immediate and profound shock to our economy.
The analysis produced by the Treasury today shows that a vote to leave will push our economy into a recession that would knock 3.6 per cent off GDP and, over two years, put hundreds of thousands of people out of work right across the country, compared to the forecast for continued growth if we vote to remain in the EU.
In a more severe shock scenario, Treasury economists estimate that our economy could be hit by 6 per cent, there would be a deeper recession and unemployment would rise by even more. '
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/22/david-cameron-and-george-osborne-brexit-would-put-our-economy-in/
We were once told how having the euro was going to be essential to the City....
“Staying out of the Euro will mean progressive economic isolation for Britain. It will mean fewer foreign businesses investing here, fewer good jobs created and less trade being done with our European partners.” – Peter Mandelson, Sunday Mirror, 18 May 2003.
Each bookie lays out his odds, each punter choose whether to bet or not. Oh of course you can talk about big bookies and betfair etc etc but the betting ring, along with ebay, is a perfect example of the free market.
Nobody HAS to trade, its a choice
I don't recall much of that before July 2016.
https://twitter.com/ianpaisleymp/status/890704304348295171
Or aren't they the 'right' sort of Remain supporters ?
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/890857042684108800
Namely tell lies and do nothing.
Were you one of the Labour supporters cheering Gordon Brown's "British Jobs For British Workers" ?
@DanielJHannan: It would surely be logistically easier to treat the British Isles as what it has always been - a single customs area. Checks only at ports.
If it's still dragging on at the next election they'll more than likely be obliterated in 2022.
Meanwhile prolife Conservatives aren't happy at all with The Guardian's op-Ed piece on the Charlie Gard case: https://twitter.com/hashtaggriswold/status/889852278148149248
I've seen several on Twitter now use this case as a reason against single payer healthcare.
You can't walk up to a bookie and say - you're offering that horse at 5/2 but I want to back it at 4/1 and he'll say "okay you can have £500 on 4/1 because I like you". That doesn't happen.
It's also not free because the bookies have finite liabilities - they'll take £500 at 5/2 but if you want £5000 they might let you have £1000 at 5/2 and the rest at 9/4 or 2/1.
In other words, the betting market is controlled by risk management - the bookies don't allow a free betting ring because there is too much risk. Allowing £5 bets and £50,000 bets at the same price without hedging or laying off would be suicide and if any of the smaller bookies tries to draw punters in by offering 3/1 about a 5/2 chance one of the big boys will come down with £10k and force him back to 5/2.
Your so-called free market is tightly controlled and regulated - you may not be aware of it. If you can nick a little value and beat the SP, good luck to you but don't go eulogising it for what it isn't.
If we're basing the economic benefits or drawbacks of Brexit on those that apparent so far, 13 months after the vote and 20 months before actual exit, then it's surely clear that it's made some of us richer, some poorer, and in most cases has made no difference.
This to me seems likely to remain the case.
But that we shouldn't do the same with other countries.
That's either illogical. or xenophobic. Like the rest of Brexit.
A country asserting its independence from a larger supra-national body is the antithesis of imperialism. We aren't seeking to impose our will on others but to end others imposing their will on us.
And what's xenophobic about not wanting to be in the customs union/the EU?
It's ridiculous to assert opposing the EU equates to xenophobia.
Why does Dublin think hardening its stance will lead to a better outcome?
What I'm not clear on is why Trump doesn't push for a repeal bill which does very little (maybe withdraws health insurance from transgender people for instance), gets it passed and then declares victory.
It's worth remembering that there are cases where doctors get it wrong (the Ashya King case is an example of this). If I was GOSH I'd have told them, "okay, you sort out the necessary arrangements, and get on with it." But I guess that's why I'm not a doctor!
Furthermore, we only have to look at issues like FGM to realise that the state is happy to let things happen when intervening is seen as being too difficult.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0509/873610-eu_poll/
Would need a big, big shift in opinion.
Is he sleeping, like Arthur, to arise at our hour of need?
*Also fought other foreigners too. Other enemies are available.
These are important challenges and such people should be held up to derision and made to explain themselves - as indeed should fat or unattractive women in all walks of life. The real reason for the BBC gender pay gap is that it is deserved. By and large its women are ugly and thus deserving of scorn and poor pay.
Re FGM - all that I've read suggests that the government is keen to intervene to stop FGM from happening. But I'll search Google now on the matter to get more info on what you're saying is the case.
None, only the derisory comments of pro-EU types come out with it.
https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/890695066922225664
On your second point, a bill like that won't pass because there are a couple of GOP senators who wouldn't vote for it. And Trump will declare victory anyway like a crazy person.
I know someone who was a donor to GOSH for years but cancelled her subscription a couple of months ago over the way she thought GOSH was bullying the parents of Charlie.
So far she's had two letters and one phone call trying to get get to reinstate her donations...
https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan