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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Former runaway favourite Johnson now slips to just a 6.6% chan

SystemSystem Posts: 12,143
edited July 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Former runaway favourite Johnson now slips to just a 6.6% chance in the next CON leader betting

One of the little commented upon factors since GE2017 is that the former Tory golden boy appears to have lost the midas touch. Certainly there has been a big move away from him on the betting markets and he’s now in fourth place.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    First, like Mogg!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Second like Remain, Corbyn and Yes!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,893

    Second like Remain, Corbyn and Yes!

    You forgot Scottish Tories. :smiley:
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Such a pity he's been put in a job that would put his weaknesses on public display and keep him out of the country for long stretches so he can't build support in the PCP......who could have been so thoughtless?

    They'll be asking Liam Fox to secure Trade Deals next!
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    It would be fantastic to have JRM as PM, politics is full of dullards. Besides that I like toffs, primarily because I wish I was one.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    RobD said:

    Second like Remain, Corbyn and Yes!

    You forgot Scottish Tories. :smiley:
    True, although current polling has SCON as not quite second!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,371
    A question:

    Have SeanT and Scaramucci ever been seen in the same room?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40735613
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    One bit from the polling OGH omitted to mention:

    Party members are reluctant for May to stand down now – with 71% backing her to stay and 22% saying she should quit.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/22/david-davis-theresa-may-conservative-leadership

    I'm sure Davis's henchmen have sober judgment (Mitchell (!?!) - ed.) and Davis himself is unlikely to indulge in rash melodramatic gestures.....

    What would happen if Davis' henchmen try to mount a coup/coronation that comes unstuck, leaving May in place? She could hardly leave him in situ, but then again sacking your BREXIT negotiator half-way through his job is far from ideal.....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,371
    London's latest passenger tube line opens in September.

    https://arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2017/07/london-mail-rail-postal-museum/
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784
    Scott_P said:
    So, watch Trump attack Cancer ridden McCain in 3, 2, 1...
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,802
    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,802

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,246
    edited July 2017
    Given the choice - would it be better to have world trade dominated by rules set by the EU or the US?

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-trade-idUKKBN1AC0KK

    My sense is the EU would be better. But what do others think?
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I'm not terrified of anything. There was a referendum that asked us if we wanted to leave the EU, the majority said yes. There is no fiasco, the country isn't divided, most people don't give a toss.

    Its time you sucked it up and stopped whining like a child.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    rkrkrk said:

    Given the choice - would it be better to have world trade dominated by rules set by the EU or the US?

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-trade-idUKKBN1AC0KK

    My sense is the EU would be better. But what do others think?

    Given the choice there'd be no rules, just free trade.

    Walk down the High Street and decide where you buy your lunch.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,188

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that.

    The electorate don't tend to like unnecessary elections or a bad loser.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,246

    rkrkrk said:

    Given the choice - would it be better to have world trade dominated by rules set by the EU or the US?

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-trade-idUKKBN1AC0KK

    My sense is the EU would be better. But what do others think?

    Given the choice there'd be no rules, just free trade.

    Walk down the High Street and decide where you buy your lunch.
    There are always rules.
    Even when you buy your lunch on the high street there are standards food has to meet, labeling requirements etc.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,802

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I'm not terrified of anything. There was a referendum that asked us if we wanted to leave the EU, the majority said yes. There is no fiasco, the country isn't divided, most people don't give a toss.

    Its time you sucked it up and stopped whining like a child.
    Nope, you and your ilk are driving us over the cliff, with support dribbling away, slowly but dribbling away none the less, I'd be worried if I was you.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Given the choice - would it be better to have world trade dominated by rules set by the EU or the US?

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-trade-idUKKBN1AC0KK

    My sense is the EU would be better. But what do others think?

    Given the choice there'd be no rules, just free trade.

    Walk down the High Street and decide where you buy your lunch.
    There are always rules.
    Even when you buy your lunch on the high street there are standards food has to meet, labeling requirements etc.
    Minor details. I hear talk of tariffs, I don't see M&S charging you to go into their stores. We have become obsessed with rules, free trade should be our goal.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    rkrkrk said:

    Given the choice - would it be better to have world trade dominated by rules set by the EU or the US?

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-trade-idUKKBN1AC0KK

    My sense is the EU would be better. But what do others think?

    While there is regulatory competition, the real issue is how EU rules are shaped. Many of them are adopted through reference to higher bodies, UNECE WP29 for vehicle regulations, ISO, Codex Alimentarius in Rome for food and animal welfare standards. Then of course there are the industries themselves who form trade bodies, who propose standards, or cooperate to set blueprint for categorisation so that their products are interchangeable (like batteries, it's not a coincidence that you can buy a battery in Nairobi that fits your Japanese transistor radio).

    All these are adopted by many nations, the EU tends to gold.plate them, ms sets some standard independently to protect specific industries, but often that is because the industries themselves are strong lobbyists in Brussels, and there is a degree of protectionism that finds its way into he system there too.

    The Reuters article is over simplifying an incredibly complex subject
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Minor details. I hear talk of tariffs, I don't see M&S charging you to go into their stores. We have become obsessed with rules, free trade should be our goal.

    Repeat, 1000 times, IT'S NOT ABOUT TARIFFS!

    Food standards are not tariffs
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    rkrkrk said:

    Given the choice - would it be better to have world trade dominated by rules set by the EU or the US?

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-trade-idUKKBN1AC0KK

    My sense is the EU would be better. But what do others think?

    The EU and the USA are both effective trade negotiators. The EU is a better fit for the UK as long as it is a member because it is a multilateral body that the UK can have a big influence over. As a non-member the UK will be in a similar position to Japan as described in the article, with little influence and squeezed between the two blocks.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,802

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that.

    The electorate don't tend to like unnecessary elections or a bad loser.
    They aren't stupid either. What was the last election if it wasn't a referendum on the Tory handling of Brexit and the associated political climate that comes with it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    But would you win the re-run of the re-run?

    That way madness lies....
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that.

    The electorate don't tend to like unnecessary elections or a bad loser.
    So you don't think that Brexit is a fiasco that's making us all poorer? Brexit will do to the Tories what the corn laws did in the 19th century.


  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    edited July 2017

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Given the choice - would it be better to have world trade dominated by rules set by the EU or the US?

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-trade-idUKKBN1AC0KK

    My sense is the EU would be better. But what do others think?

    Given the choice there'd be no rules, just free trade.

    Walk down the High Street and decide where you buy your lunch.
    There are always rules.
    Even when you buy your lunch on the high street there are standards food has to meet, labeling requirements etc.
    Minor details. I hear talk of tariffs, I don't see M&S charging you to go into their stores. We have become obsessed with rules, free trade should be our goal.
    While the EU exists ( and to a degree the USA), global free trade will forever be but a dream. Their aim is not free trade, but protectionism. Thier first focus is to keep themselves wealthy, as ensure organisational integrity. Free trade would threaten that, as each has a number of vested interests which cannot be sacrificed politically (largely in the agricultural sector, but there are others).

    While many were concerned about TTIP, I would be surprised if it ever concludes. There simply isn't the will, not in either side, to compromise.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Scott_P said:

    Minor details. I hear talk of tariffs, I don't see M&S charging you to go into their stores. We have become obsessed with rules, free trade should be our goal.

    Repeat, 1000 times, IT'S NOT ABOUT TARIFFS!

    Food standards are not tariffs
    Free trade is about choice, nobody is forced to buy anything. By all means apply standards, standards don't equal rules.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that.

    The electorate don't tend to like unnecessary elections or a bad loser.
    So you don't think that Brexit is a fiasco that's making us all poorer? Brexit will do to the Tories what the corn laws did in the 19th century.


    Out of interest, what evidence do you have that Brexit is "making us all poorer"?
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I'm not terrified of anything. There was a referendum that asked us if we wanted to leave the EU, the majority said yes. There is no fiasco, the country isn't divided, most people don't give a toss.

    Its time you sucked it up and stopped whining like a child.
    Nope, you and your ilk are driving us over the cliff, with support dribbling away, slowly but dribbling away none the less, I'd be worried if I was you.
    What should I be worried about?

    Please be specific without any hyperbole
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    standards don't equal rules.

    Food standards are explicitly rules. It is illegal not to meet them if you want to trade.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Scott_P said:

    standards don't equal rules.

    Food standards are explicitly rules. It is illegal not to meet them if you want to trade.
    Illegal according to who?

    We should trade freely and let the market find its price. You do understand why Poundland and Harrods both make money don't you? Nobody is forced to shop there.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,735
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: practice starts in about an hour. In the meantime, my book's out today:
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Traitors-Prize-Bloody-Crown-Trilogy-ebook/dp/B073WGRF3W/

    On F1, decided to just stick with my bets on No Safety Car and Vettel at 5.2. Tempted by Bottas at 9... but decided against it.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that.

    The electorate don't tend to like unnecessary elections or a bad loser.
    So you don't think that Brexit is a fiasco that's making us all poorer? Brexit will do to the Tories what the corn laws did in the 19th century.


    Out of interest, what evidence do you have that Brexit is "making us all poorer"?
    Well its cost me about e6,000 in a year due to exchange rates
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    Scott_P said:

    standards don't equal rules.

    Food standards are explicitly rules. It is illegal not to meet them if you want to trade.
    Where are food standards set though? How much of the total food industry is cross border? These are important issues to address when looking at which rules are pertinent to an argument on regulation. Who enforces food standards in the main?

    Mostly it's national government. Animal welfare standards are UK based and UK enforced. Food and hygiene standards are based on wider rules, but UK is free to set many of its own very high hurdles on high Street food retailers and restaurants, and does. Your local council is the body which enforces most food regulation.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    TonyE said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Given the choice - would it be better to have world trade dominated by rules set by the EU or the US?

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-trade-idUKKBN1AC0KK

    My sense is the EU would be better. But what do others think?

    Given the choice there'd be no rules, just free trade.

    Walk down the High Street and decide where you buy your lunch.
    There are always rules.
    Even when you buy your lunch on the high street there are standards food has to meet, labeling requirements etc.
    Minor details. I hear talk of tariffs, I don't see M&S charging you to go into their stores. We have become obsessed with rules, free trade should be our goal.
    While the EU exists ( and to a degree the USA), global free trade will forever be but a dream. Their aim is not free trade, but protectionism. Thier first focus is to keep themselves wealthy, as ensure organisational integrity. Free trade would threaten that, as each has a number of vested interests which cannot be sacrificed politically (largely in the agricultural sector, but there are others).

    While many were concerned about TTIP, I would be surprised if it ever concludes. There simply isn't the will, not in either side, to compromise.
    Correct. The EU is a hindrance to trade.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    You do understand why Poundland and Harrods both make money don't you?

    Yes, they both comply with trading standards.

    Otherwise neither would be making money. Or trading.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,802

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that.

    The electorate don't tend to like unnecessary elections or a bad loser.
    So you don't think that Brexit is a fiasco that's making us all poorer? Brexit will do to the Tories what the corn laws did in the 19th century.


    Out of interest, what evidence do you have that Brexit is "making us all poorer"?
    Fall in value of the pound, associated inflation, shrinkflation. Hols in Spain are going to be getting more expensive. Things like that are gamechangers.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    nichomar said:

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that.

    The electorate don't tend to like unnecessary elections or a bad loser.
    So you don't think that Brexit is a fiasco that's making us all poorer? Brexit will do to the Tories what the corn laws did in the 19th century.


    Out of interest, what evidence do you have that Brexit is "making us all poorer"?
    Well its cost me about e6,000 in a year due to exchange rates
    So still absolutely no evidence that Brexit is "making us all poorer".

    And nor will there be. Come on Remoaners, destroy us with facts that prove we are all becoming poorer.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Scott_P said:

    You do understand why Poundland and Harrods both make money don't you?

    Yes, they both comply with trading standards.

    Otherwise neither would be making money. Or trading.
    Trading standards set by who?

    You see we don't need to belong to the EU to set trading standards.

    You do understand that don't you?
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that.

    The electorate don't tend to like unnecessary elections or a bad loser.
    So you don't think that Brexit is a fiasco that's making us all poorer? Brexit will do to the Tories what the corn laws did in the 19th century.


    Out of interest, what evidence do you have that Brexit is "making us all poorer"?
    Fall in value of the pound, associated inflation, shrinkflation. Hols in Spain are going to be getting more expensive. Things like that are gamechangers.
    Ahhhh "going to be", I've got you.

    So no evidence at all, just guesses.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    You see we don't need to belong to the EU to set trading standards.

    You do understand that don't you?

    And being in the EU doesn't stop them trading

    You do understand that don't you?
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Scott_P said:

    You see we don't need to belong to the EU to set trading standards.

    You do understand that don't you?

    And being in the EU doesn't stop them trading

    You do understand that don't you?
    I understand it perfectly thanks. So if we can trade freely in or out why pay to join?

    You'll get there in the end
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,602
    Brexit hasn't happened yet.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that.

    The electorate don't tend to like unnecessary elections or a bad loser.
    So you don't think that Brexit is a fiasco that's making us all poorer? Brexit will do to the Tories what the corn laws did in the 19th century.


    Out of interest, what evidence do you have that Brexit is "making us all poorer"?
    Things like that are gamechangers.
    I expect that's why the Lib Dems vote share fell in GE2017......
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    So if we can trade freely in or out why pay to join?

    We can trade freely as long as we meet the International trade standards.

    We can be part of the body that sets the standards, or not.

    Which would be better for us?

    I would like to think you'll get there in the end, but I am not confident...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Jonathan said:

    Brexit hasn't happened yet.

    Only if its good news. If its bad news its because its going to happen....
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    TonyE said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Given the choice - would it be better to have world trade dominated by rules set by the EU or the US?

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-trade-idUKKBN1AC0KK

    My sense is the EU would be better. But what do others think?

    Given the choice there'd be no rules, just free trade.

    Walk down the High Street and decide where you buy your lunch.
    There are always rules.
    Even when you buy your lunch on the high street there are standards food has to meet, labeling requirements etc.
    Minor details. I hear talk of tariffs, I don't see M&S charging you to go into their stores. We have become obsessed with rules, free trade should be our goal.
    While the EU exists ( and to a degree the USA), global free trade will forever be but a dream. Their aim is not free trade, but protectionism. Thier first focus is to keep themselves wealthy, as ensure organisational integrity. Free trade would threaten that, as each has a number of vested interests which cannot be sacrificed politically (largely in the agricultural sector, but there are others).

    While many were concerned about TTIP, I would be surprised if it ever concludes. There simply isn't the will, not in either side, to compromise.
    Correct. The EU is a hindrance to trade.
    As is the United States. It is a big bad world out there. My fear is that some free trade headbanger signs any old piece of paper Donald Trump flashes in front of him, which subjugates us to American standards and jurisdiction but does nothing to counter rampant American protectionism.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    I hope @Cyclefree enjoys her travels and has great success with her future endeavours.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Scott_P said:

    So if we can trade freely in or out why pay to join?

    We can trade freely as long as we meet the International trade standards.

    We can be part of the body that sets the standards, or not.

    Which would be better for us?

    I would like to think you'll get there in the end, but I am not confident...
    More obfuscation.

    You stated clearly that we can trade in or out - why on earth would we pay to join?

    This is your big chance, after a year of whining, to put it to bed.

    Knock yourself out mate.......
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,802

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that.

    The electorate don't tend to like unnecessary elections or a bad loser.
    So you don't think that Brexit is a fiasco that's making us all poorer? Brexit will do to the Tories what the corn laws did in the 19th century.


    Out of interest, what evidence do you have that Brexit is "making us all poorer"?
    Things like that are gamechangers.
    I expect that's why the Lib Dems vote share fell in GE2017......
    And yet their wins in Oxford, Twickenham, Eastbourne, Bath and Surbiton cost you a narrow majority.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    The Senate republicans, except for three, all look as if they have faces like smacked arses. Mitch McConnell looked like a constipated owl.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    The idea that once we leave the EU there will be a sudden tearing up of EU standards is laughable. Because many of those standards in cross border trade are adopted much more widely ( not under EU or ECJ jurisdiction but by equivalence due to the the WTO technical barriers to trade agreement), and are not set in principle by the EU itself, it would simply be counter productive.

    It's not about trade standards, Brexit is about political Independence. The right to have a voice in the places where those standards are set, UNECE, Codex, WTO - we are currently bond by the common commercial policy. But Britain is an Innovator, drowned out in the EU by the massive continental conglomerates who don't want always to move forward. Dyson's experience against EU protection for 'old technology' is instructive - fixing the ratings test for vacuum cleaners so the bag is always "empty" was a big deal to the new bag less innovators. This is a common issue, where there are big players close to Brussels, they hold up progress in many cases. This then plays out more widely due to the common commercial policy, silencing Britain where it has most to offer.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    why on earth would we pay to join?

    So we can set the standards we need to meet to trade.

    This is not complicated, but clearly too much for some...
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Mike and Jonathan nicely demonstrating the two contradictory sides of the Remoaner line on Brexit and the economy today.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The Senate republicans, except for three, all look as if they have faces like smacked arses. Mitch McConnell looked like a constipated owl.

    He's awake...

    @realDonaldTrump: 3 Republicans and 48 Democrats let the American people down. As I said from the beginning, let ObamaCare implode, then deal. Watch!
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Scott_P said:

    why on earth would we pay to join?

    So we can set the standards we need to meet to trade.

    This is not complicated, but clearly too much for some...
    Must do better, let me explain.

    We voted to leave, in the unlikely event of another referendum you need to make the argument to join.

    Go on tv and talk about trading standards in the EU, I'm sure 99% of the electorate will get excited and follow you.

    As I keep saying, you lost, either suck it up or change direction, it ain't working.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    TonyE said:

    The idea that once we leave the EU there will be a sudden tearing up of EU standards is laughable. Because many of those standards in cross border trade are adopted much more widely ( not under EU or ECJ jurisdiction but by equivalence due to the the WTO technical barriers to trade agreement), and are not set in principle by the EU itself, it would simply be counter productive.

    It's not about trade standards, Brexit is about political Independence. The right to have a voice in the places where those standards are set, UNECE, Codex, WTO - we are currently bond by the common commercial policy. But Britain is an Innovator, drowned out in the EU by the massive continental conglomerates who don't want always to move forward. Dyson's experience against EU protection for 'old technology' is instructive - fixing the ratings test for vacuum cleaners so the bag is always "empty" was a big deal to the new bag less innovators. This is a common issue, where there are big players close to Brussels, they hold up progress in many cases. This then plays out more widely due to the common commercial policy, silencing Britain where it has most to offer.

    Surely this could just as easily be evidence for Remain. After Brexit we shall still need to comply with European standards on vacuum cleaners but now we will have no voice in setting them.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    Scott_P said:

    why on earth would we pay to join?

    So we can set the standards we need to meet to trade.

    This is not complicated, but clearly too much for some...
    But with the common commercial policy, the upward movement of wider global standards is set by the vested interests of the big European conglomerates, while the British innovator is often left voiceless as the EU speaks for us.

    The future of trade is much more based at a global level when talking about NTB issues. WTO,Codex, UNECE, Independent sectoral trade bodies. To influence them, we need to have a free hand.

    The USA is a big internal market, larger than the EU, and presently under both republican and democratic control has tended to resist international conformity, because its large enough to do so. Reference to the USA is therefore generally a red herring such discussion.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956

    TonyE said:

    The idea that once we leave the EU there will be a sudden tearing up of EU standards is laughable. Because many of those standards in cross border trade are adopted much more widely ( not under EU or ECJ jurisdiction but by equivalence due to the the WTO technical barriers to trade agreement), and are not set in principle by the EU itself, it would simply be counter productive.

    It's not about trade standards, Brexit is about political Independence. The right to have a voice in the places where those standards are set, UNECE, Codex, WTO - we are currently bond by the common commercial policy. But Britain is an Innovator, drowned out in the EU by the massive continental conglomerates who don't want always to move forward. Dyson's experience against EU protection for 'old technology' is instructive - fixing the ratings test for vacuum cleaners so the bag is always "empty" was a big deal to the new bag less innovators. This is a common issue, where there are big players close to Brussels, they hold up progress in many cases. This then plays out more widely due to the common commercial policy, silencing Britain where it has most to offer.

    Surely this could just as easily be evidence for Remain. After Brexit we shall still need to comply with European standards on vacuum cleaners but now we will have no voice in setting them.
    To sell into the EU.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    As I keep saying, you lost, either suck it up or change direction, it ain't working.

    That's it?

    That's the reasoned debate we have come to expect from the Brexiteers...

    "The reason we don't need food trading standards is Leave won the referendum. Neener, neener"

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TonyE said:

    The future of trade is much more based at a global level when talking about NTB issues. WTO,Codex, UNECE, Independent sectoral trade bodies. To influence them, we need to have a free hand.

    How much does this "free" hand cost?

    Could you explain membership of trade standards bodies to @freetochoose ?

    Use small words. Maybe pictures would help.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCr4today: Philip Hammond says it will be some time before "we can introduce full migration controls between the UK and EU" #r4today

    @nickeardleybbc: Chancellor says he hopes transition will mean goods continue to flow in "much the same way they do now" in period immediately after Brexit
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436
    TonyE said:

    Scott_P said:

    why on earth would we pay to join?

    So we can set the standards we need to meet to trade.

    This is not complicated, but clearly too much for some...
    But with the common commercial policy, the upward movement of wider global standards is set by the vested interests of the big European conglomerates, while the British innovator is often left voiceless as the EU speaks for us.

    The future of trade is much more based at a global level when talking about NTB issues. WTO,Codex, UNECE, Independent sectoral trade bodies. To influence them, we need to have a free hand.

    The USA is a big internal market, larger than the EU, and presently under both republican and democratic control has tended to resist international conformity, because its large enough to do so. Reference to the USA is therefore generally a red herring such discussion.
    Do you not see the obvious contradiction in simultaneously saying that everything will be done globally and then saying that the US does what it wants because of its scale? The fact is that if global influence is our aim, leaving the EU is the last thing we should be doing.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    TonyE said:

    The idea that once we leave the EU there will be a sudden tearing up of EU standards is laughable. Because many of those standards in cross border trade are adopted much more widely ( not under EU or ECJ jurisdiction but by equivalence due to the the WTO technical barriers to trade agreement), and are not set in principle by the EU itself, it would simply be counter productive.

    It's not about trade standards, Brexit is about political Independence. The right to have a voice in the places where those standards are set, UNECE, Codex, WTO - we are currently bond by the common commercial policy. But Britain is an Innovator, drowned out in the EU by the massive continental conglomerates who don't want always to move forward. Dyson's experience against EU protection for 'old technology' is instructive - fixing the ratings test for vacuum cleaners so the bag is always "empty" was a big deal to the new bag less innovators. This is a common issue, where there are big players close to Brussels, they hold up progress in many cases. This then plays out more widely due to the common commercial policy, silencing Britain where it has most to offer.

    Surely this could just as easily be evidence for Remain. After Brexit we shall still need to comply with European standards on vacuum cleaners but now we will have no voice in setting them.
    No, because as the WTO TBT agreement starts to bite, then the EU will have to be more internationalist in its approach.

    Taking the issue of domestic law, then the test that Dyson had to face in its home market which tended to show it's competitors in and unfairly positive light would also be gone, and as we would not have to use that test when advertising that product in international markets, we could use a more accurate one. We could then campaign to have that test adopted more widely as others would want to see that transparency. Common commercial policy prevents this.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    The Irish proposal, for the hard border to be a sea one with customs at Holyhead is the only one that works for a UK outside the Customs Union, but is the point at which the DUP brings down the Tories. Watch this space.
    TonyE said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Given the choice - would it be better to have world trade dominated by rules set by the EU or the US?

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-trade-idUKKBN1AC0KK

    My sense is the EU would be better. But what do others think?

    Given the choice there'd be no rules, just free trade.

    Walk down the High Street and decide where you buy your lunch.
    There are always rules.
    Even when you buy your lunch on the high street there are standards food has to meet, labeling requirements etc.
    Minor details. I hear talk of tariffs, I don't see M&S charging you to go into their stores. We have become obsessed with rules, free trade should be our goal.
    While the EU exists ( and to a degree the USA), global free trade will forever be but a dream. Their aim is not free trade, but protectionism. Thier first focus is to keep themselves wealthy, as ensure organisational integrity. Free trade would threaten that, as each has a number of vested interests which cannot be sacrificed politically (largely in the agricultural sector, but there are others).

    While many were concerned about TTIP, I would be surprised if it ever concludes. There simply isn't the will, not in either side, to compromise.
    I think you can add a lot of other countries to that list. Nearly all are protectionist to degree.

    The heyday for the fetish of Free Trade was in the 19th Century, and then mostly a British one. It existed as a manifestation of British economic and Naval power. Free Trade was just another expression of British Imperialism, as with our Navy we could strangle others trade routes. Even then we set the rules so that within the Empire, native industries were pushed aside by British ones.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Do you not see the obvious contradiction in simultaneously saying that everything will be done globally and then saying that the US does what it wants because of its scale? The fact is that if global influence is our aim, leaving the EU is the last thing we should be doing.

    And chickens have already provided the perfect example.

    Once we are "free", we can either comply with US standards we don't set, or EU standards we don't set, or we don't buy or sell chickens...

    "Let them eat Sovereignty..."
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JasonGroves1: Philip Hammond says EU transition period will look much like EU membership: 'On the first day after we leave, many things will look similar'
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436
    TonyE said:

    TonyE said:

    The idea that once we leave the EU there will be a sudden tearing up of EU standards is laughable. Because many of those standards in cross border trade are adopted much more widely ( not under EU or ECJ jurisdiction but by equivalence due to the the WTO technical barriers to trade agreement), and are not set in principle by the EU itself, it would simply be counter productive.

    It's not about trade standards, Brexit is about political Independence. The right to have a voice in the places where those standards are set, UNECE, Codex, WTO - we are currently bond by the common commercial policy. But Britain is an Innovator, drowned out in the EU by the massive continental conglomerates who don't want always to move forward. Dyson's experience against EU protection for 'old technology' is instructive - fixing the ratings test for vacuum cleaners so the bag is always "empty" was a big deal to the new bag less innovators. This is a common issue, where there are big players close to Brussels, they hold up progress in many cases. This then plays out more widely due to the common commercial policy, silencing Britain where it has most to offer.

    Surely this could just as easily be evidence for Remain. After Brexit we shall still need to comply with European standards on vacuum cleaners but now we will have no voice in setting them.
    No, because as the WTO TBT agreement starts to bite, then the EU will have to be more internationalist in its approach.

    Taking the issue of domestic law, then the test that Dyson had to face in its home market which tended to show it's competitors in and unfairly positive light would also be gone, and as we would not have to use that test when advertising that product in international markets, we could use a more accurate one. We could then campaign to have that test adopted more widely as others would want to see that transparency. Common commercial policy prevents this.
    'We could campaign'? Bully for us! Germany will look on in impotent envy at our newfound global influence while they remain shackled to the EU...
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Scott_P said:

    As I keep saying, you lost, either suck it up or change direction, it ain't working.

    That's it?

    That's the reasoned debate we have come to expect from the Brexiteers...

    "The reason we don't need food trading standards is Leave won the referendum. Neener, neener"

    Yes that's it actually, we had a reasoned debate and Leave won.

    For the umpteenth time I invite you to make a positive case for us to rejoin the EU. In the meantime, in the list of priorities that included immigration, sovereignty, cost etc please tell me where food trading standards appeared on the list.

    You're not waving you're drowning.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,602
    Essexit said:

    Mike and Jonathan nicely demonstrating the two contradictory sides of the Remoaner line on Brexit and the economy today.

    No. Just two sides of the same coin.

    The anticipation of Brexit and the incompetence of the current administration is having an impact. Some things are being priced in, look at the pound.

    Uncertainty about the definition of Brexit is doing damage. Everyone hates uncertainty. It's churlish to argue that this is untrue.

    But then we get to the impact of Brexit itself. That we simply don't know because it hasn't happened yet.

    But given what is currently happening the prognosis is not good.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436

    Scott_P said:

    As I keep saying, you lost, either suck it up or change direction, it ain't working.

    That's it?

    That's the reasoned debate we have come to expect from the Brexiteers...

    "The reason we don't need food trading standards is Leave won the referendum. Neener, neener"

    Yes that's it actually, we had a reasoned debate and Leave won.

    For the umpteenth time I invite you to make a positive case for us to rejoin the EU. In the meantime, in the list of priorities that included immigration, sovereignty, cost etc please tell me where food trading standards appeared on the list.

    You're not waving you're drowning.
    Is it listening to Philip Hammond this morning that has wound you up?
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    TonyE said:

    Scott_P said:

    why on earth would we pay to join?

    So we can set the standards we need to meet to trade.

    This is not complicated, but clearly too much for some...
    But with the common commercial policy, the upward movement of wider global standards is set by the vested interests of the big European conglomerates, while the British innovator is often left voiceless as the EU speaks for us.

    The future of trade is much more based at a global level when talking about NTB issues. WTO,Codex, UNECE, Independent sectoral trade bodies. To influence them, we need to have a free hand.

    The USA is a big internal market, larger than the EU, and presently under both republican and democratic control has tended to resist international conformity, because its large enough to do so. Reference to the USA is therefore generally a red herring such discussion.
    Do you not see the obvious contradiction in simultaneously saying that everything will be done globally and then saying that the US does what it wants because of its scale? The fact is that if global influence is our aim, leaving the EU is the last thing we should be doing.
    No, not really. The USA has economic strength that the EU does not have, simply because of its own unique financial position as the global currency provider. Plus, it really is one nation, and its homogeneity is longer established. As time goes by, and other currencies compete with the dollar,I suspect that hey will have to emerge from behind their self imposed Non tariff wall in may sectors. Looking to the future, I would expect to see the Block approach begin to subside as the WTO TBT agreement begins to be more advantageous, and the Trade Facilitation Agreement starts to take lager effect.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    TonyE said:

    TonyE said:

    The idea that once we leave the EU there will be a sudden tearing up of EU standards is laughable. Because many of those standards in cross border trade are adopted much more widely ( not under EU or ECJ jurisdiction but by equivalence due to the the WTO technical barriers to trade agreement), and are not set in principle by the EU itself, it would simply be counter productive.

    It's not about trade standards, Brexit is about political Independence. The right to have a voice in the places where those standards are set, UNECE, Codex, WTO - we are currently bond by the common commercial policy. But Britain is an Innovator, drowned out in the EU by the massive continental conglomerates who don't want always to move forward. Dyson's experience against EU protection for 'old technology' is instructive - fixing the ratings test for vacuum cleaners so the bag is always "empty" was a big deal to the new bag less innovators. This is a common issue, where there are big players close to Brussels, they hold up progress in many cases. This then plays out more widely due to the common commercial policy, silencing Britain where it has most to offer.

    Surely this could just as easily be evidence for Remain. After Brexit we shall still need to comply with European standards on vacuum cleaners but now we will have no voice in setting them.
    No, because as the WTO TBT agreement starts to bite, then the EU will have to be more internationalist in its approach.

    Taking the issue of domestic law, then the test that Dyson had to face in its home market which tended to show it's competitors in and unfairly positive light would also be gone, and as we would not have to use that test when advertising that product in international markets, we could use a more accurate one. We could then campaign to have that test adopted more widely as others would want to see that transparency. Common commercial policy prevents this.
    As I recall, Dysons are no longer made here. They are however a very large share of the German market. They are going to continue manufacturing for that market.

    I think that you have to buy a Henry if you want a UK made vacuum cleaner.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    TonyE said:

    TonyE said:

    The idea that once we leave the EU there will be a sudden tearing up of EU standards is laughable. Because many of those standards in cross border trade are adopted much more widely ( not under EU or ECJ jurisdiction but by equivalence due to the the WTO technical barriers to trade agreement), and are not set in principle by the EU itself, it would simply be counter productive.

    It's not about trade standards, Brexit is about political Independence. The right to have a voice in the places where those standards are set, UNECE, Codex, WTO - we are currently bond by the common commercial policy. But Britain is an Innovator, drowned out in the EU by the massive continental conglomerates who don't want always to move forward. Dyson's experience against EU protection for 'old technology' is instructive - fixing the ratings test for vacuum cleaners so the bag is always "empty" was a big deal to the new bag less innovators. This is a common issue, where there are big players close to Brussels, they hold up progress in many cases. This then plays out more widely due to the common commercial policy, silencing Britain where it has most to offer.

    Surely this could just as easily be evidence for Remain. After Brexit we shall still need to comply with European standards on vacuum cleaners but now we will have no voice in setting them.
    No, because as the WTO TBT agreement starts to bite, then the EU will have to be more internationalist in its approach.

    Taking the issue of domestic law, then the test that Dyson had to face in its home market which tended to show it's competitors in and unfairly positive light would also be gone, and as we would not have to use that test when advertising that product in international markets, we could use a more accurate one. We could then campaign to have that test adopted more widely as others would want to see that transparency. Common commercial policy prevents this.
    'We could campaign'? Bully for us! Germany will look on in impotent envy at our newfound global influence while they remain shackled to the EU...
    You make my point for me. In your world, you contend that Germany is the CCP, and the CCP is Germany. We had no voice. We will have one.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114
    Jonathan said:

    Essexit said:

    Mike and Jonathan nicely demonstrating the two contradictory sides of the Remoaner line on Brexit and the economy today.

    No. Just two sides of the same coin.

    The anticipation of Brexit and the incompetence of the current administration is having an impact. Some things are being priced in, look at the pound.

    Uncertainty about the definition of Brexit is doing damage. Everyone hates uncertainty. It's churlish to argue that this is untrue.

    But then we get to the impact of Brexit itself. That we simply don't know because it hasn't happened yet.

    But given what is currently happening the prognosis is not good.
    I'm going bullish again on the economy. The slowdown I was seeing in my sector looks to have been brought on by the eleection. Best July (internal and export) since I began trading.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Essexit said:

    Mike and Jonathan nicely demonstrating the two contradictory sides of the Remoaner line on Brexit and the economy today.

    Another Brextremist.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436
    TonyE said:

    TonyE said:

    TonyE said:

    The idea that once we leave the EU there will be a sudden tearing up of EU standards is laughable. Because many of those standards in cross border trade are adopted much more widely ( not under EU or ECJ jurisdiction but by equivalence due to the the WTO technical barriers to trade agreement), and are not set in principle by the EU itself, it would simply be counter productive.

    It's not about trade standards, Brexit is about political Independence. The right to have a voice in the places where those standards are set, UNECE, Codex, WTO - we are currently bond by the common commercial policy. But Britain is an Innovator, drowned out in the EU by the massive continental conglomerates who don't want always to move forward. Dyson's experience against EU protection for 'old technology' is instructive - fixing the ratings test for vacuum cleaners so the bag is always "empty" was a big deal to the new bag less innovators. This is a common issue, where there are big players close to Brussels, they hold up progress in many cases. This then plays out more widely due to the common commercial policy, silencing Britain where it has most to offer.

    Surely this could just as easily be evidence for Remain. After Brexit we shall still need to comply with European standards on vacuum cleaners but now we will have no voice in setting them.
    No, because as the WTO TBT agreement starts to bite, then the EU will have to be more internationalist in its approach.

    Taking the issue of domestic law, then the test that Dyson had to face in its home market which tended to show it's competitors in and unfairly positive light would also be gone, and as we would not have to use that test when advertising that product in international markets, we could use a more accurate one. We could then campaign to have that test adopted more widely as others would want to see that transparency. Common commercial policy prevents this.
    'We could campaign'? Bully for us! Germany will look on in impotent envy at our newfound global influence while they remain shackled to the EU...
    You make my point for me. In your world, you contend that Germany is the CCP, and the CCP is Germany. We had no voice. We will have one.
    I contend no such thing. If we had no voice, how did Peter Mandelson end up in charge of trade in the Commission?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114

    Essexit said:

    Mike and Jonathan nicely demonstrating the two contradictory sides of the Remoaner line on Brexit and the economy today.

    Another Brextremist.
    If the last few years have shown anything, it is surely that Europeanism is the extreme position.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    in the list of priorities that included immigration, sovereignty, cost etc please tell me where food trading standards appeared on the list.

    Food trading standards are integral to the questions of Sovereignty and cost.

    Can we set the standards (Sovereignty) or not?

    Do standards drive the cost?

    The fact Brexiteers don't understand any of this is why the project is going to be such an epic fail...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCNormanS: Seems clear UK leaves EU in March 2019 in name only , pending further three year transition period.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    TonyE said:

    TonyE said:

    TonyE said:

    The idea that once we leave the EU there will be a sudden tearing up of EU standards is laughable. Because many of those standards in cross border trade are adopted much more widely ( not under EU or ECJ jurisdiction but by equivalence due to the the WTO technical barriers to trade agreement), and are not set in principle by the EU itself, it would simply be counter productive.

    It's not about trade standards, Brexit is about political Independence. The right to have a voice in the places where those standards are set, UNECE, Codex, WTO - we are currently bond by the common commercial policy. But Britain is an Innovator, drowned out in the EU by the massive continental conglomerates who don't want always to move forward. Dyson's experience against EU protection for 'old technology' is instructive - fixing the ratings test for vacuum cleaners so the bag is always "empty" was a big deal to the new bag less innovators. This is a common issue, where there are big players close to Brussels, they hold up progress in many cases. This then plays out more widely due to the common commercial policy, silencing Britain where it has most to offer.

    Surely this could just as easily be evidence for Remain. After Brexit we shall still need to comply with European standards on vacuum cleaners but now we will have no voice in setting them.
    No, because as the WTO TBT agreement starts to bite, then the EU will have to be more internationalist in its approach.

    Taking the issue of domestic law, then the test that Dyson had to face in its home market which tended to show it's competitors in and unfairly positive light would also be gone, and as we would not have to use that test when advertising that product in international markets, we could use a more accurate one. We could then campaign to have that test adopted more widely as others would want to see that transparency. Common commercial policy prevents this.
    'We could campaign'? Bully for us! Germany will look on in impotent envy at our newfound global influence while they remain shackled to the EU...
    You make my point for me. In your world, you contend that Germany is the CCP, and the CCP is Germany. We had no voice. We will have one.
    I contend no such thing. If we had no voice, how did Peter Mandelson end up in charge of trade in the Commission?
    Commissioners represent the Commission, not their nation states. And he did, which is why you have such things as a privatised postal service which you probably didn't want.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,188

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that.

    The electorate don't tend to like unnecessary elections or a bad loser.
    So you don't think that Brexit is a fiasco that's making us all poorer? Brexit will do to the Tories what the corn laws did in the 19th century.


    I don't think so, no.

    I think you're totally obsessed with it, and need to get a grip.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535
    Morning all,

    Enjoying waking up to the news that John McCain has got his revenge on Trump two years after the original slur on his war record: always a dish best eaten cold.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,188

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that.

    The electorate don't tend to like unnecessary elections or a bad loser.
    They aren't stupid either. What was the last election if it wasn't a referendum on the Tory handling of Brexit and the associated political climate that comes with it.
    It was a general election fought largely on domestic policy.

    You wanting it to be a verdict on Brexit that supports your viewpoint doesn't make it so.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833
    The obvious problem with Boris is that he is clearly unsuitable for the job.

    The risk of course is that he wants the job more than anyone else, has managed to get jobs before that he is clearly unsuitable for (arguably all of them), and there remain Tory members who inexplicably think he is going to lead them towards national credibility and success.

    His risk is that more of his own colleagues share the former view than the latter.

    The catch is that MPs habe a growing list of people they will want to keep away from the members and a shortage of eligible prospects.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,602
    Brexit is a bit like finding a lump. We've had a biopsy, we're waiting on the results and they're taking their time. We don't quite trust the doctor. The uncertainty is giving us sleepless nights. It might be benign, it might kill us. We just don't know.

    But don't mistake that anxiety for the pain of surgery or the consequences of it not being benign.

    Fingers crossed. Unfortunately you can't turn back the clock and unfind the lump. We now have to deal with it and work for a good outcome, hard or soft, leave or remain.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that.

    The electorate don't tend to like unnecessary elections or a bad loser.
    So you don't think that Brexit is a fiasco that's making us all poorer? Brexit will do to the Tories what the corn laws did in the 19th century.


    I don't think so, no.

    I think you're totally obsessed with it, and need to get a grip.
    I'm sure that not everybody will be worse off when we leave but who has most to gain over the next ten years, i assume lawyers and ex politicians will but who else?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,188
    Essexit said:

    Mike and Jonathan nicely demonstrating the two contradictory sides of the Remoaner line on Brexit and the economy today.

    The EU yesterday moving to take sanctions against Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic for refusing to help mitigate German migration policy shows just what direction it's going in. As do their broader moves against Poland.

    Absolutely delighted we're leaving.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114

    Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107

    And the more I read about (and hear at work) the cluelessness with which we are approaching Brexit, the greater my level of fury with the Tories for bringing this utter stinking pile of poo down upon us all. This was wholly unnecessary, the country is now bitterly divided, our national reputation is being trashed daily in the eyes of all, and in honesty I was perfectly happy with arrangements as they were. A plague on the Tory right.

    52% ain't the tory right
    52% who weren't offered a clear choice, just vague slogans, lies and competing views of outcome - and that on both sides. The whole thing is a fucking fiasco. What you are terrified of is that you wouldn't win a re-run.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that.

    The electorate don't tend to like unnecessary elections or a bad loser.
    So you don't think that Brexit is a fiasco that's making us all poorer? Brexit will do to the Tories what the corn laws did in the 19th century.


    I don't think so, no.

    I think you're totally obsessed with it, and need to get a grip.
    The irony of course is that the Peelite position on the Corn Laws was the bang on right decision for the country; it may have restricted the short term electoral prospects of the Tories, but it made them the natural Party of government from 1870-now.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436
    TonyE said:

    TonyE said:

    TonyE said:

    TonyE said:

    The idea that once we leave the EU there will be a sudden tearing up of EU standards is laughable. Because many of those standards in cross border trade are adopted much more widely ( not under EU or ECJ jurisdiction but by equivalence due to the the WTO technical barriers to trade agreement), and are not set in principle by the EU itself, it would simply be counter productive.

    It's not about trade standards, Brexit is about political Independence. The right to have a voice in the places where those standards are set, UNECE, Codex, WTO - we are currently bond by the common commercial policy. But Britain is an Innovator, drowned out in the EU by the massive continental conglomerates who don't want always to move forward. Dyson's experience against EU protection for 'old technology' is instructive - fixing the ratings test for vacuum cleaners so the bag is always "empty" was a big deal to the new bag less innovators. This is a common issue, where there are big players close to Brussels, they hold up progress in many cases. This then plays out more widely due to the common commercial policy, silencing Britain where it has most to offer.

    Surely this could just as easily be evidence for Remain. After Brexit we shall still need to comply with European standards on vacuum cleaners but now we will have no voice in setting them.
    No, because as the WTO TBT agreement starts to bite, then the EU will have to be more internationalist in its approach.

    Taking the issue of domestic law, then the test that Dyson had to face in its home market which tended to show it's competitors in and unfairly positive light would also be gone, and as we would not have to use that test when advertising that product in international markets, we could use a more accurate one. We could then campaign to have that test adopted more widely as others would want to see that transparency. Common commercial policy prevents this.
    'We could campaign'? Bully for us! Germany will look on in impotent envy at our newfound global influence while they remain shackled to the EU...
    You make my point for me. In your world, you contend that Germany is the CCP, and the CCP is Germany. We had no voice. We will have one.
    I contend no such thing. If we had no voice, how did Peter Mandelson end up in charge of trade in the Commission?
    Commissioners represent the Commission, not their nation states. And he did, which is why you have such things as a privatised postal service which you probably didn't want.
    Why do you think I probably didn't want it?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535

    Scott_P said:

    As I keep saying, you lost, either suck it up or change direction, it ain't working.

    That's it?

    That's the reasoned debate we have come to expect from the Brexiteers...

    "The reason we don't need food trading standards is Leave won the referendum. Neener, neener"

    Yes that's it actually, we had a reasoned debate and Leave won.

    For the umpteenth time I invite you to make a positive case for us to rejoin the EU. In the meantime, in the list of priorities that included immigration, sovereignty, cost etc please tell me where food trading standards appeared on the list.

    You're not waving you're drowning.
    Food standards probably didn't appear on the list because the vast majority of voters had no idea what on earth the EU did and why. The Blue Flag clean beach thing would be another. Pro-Europeans bear a heavy responsibility for not explaining the positives over the years.

    I remember a vox pox being conducted by I think Sky somewhere in Wales, were a few young people said the EU had done nothing for them or Wales.

    They were stood outside an apprenticeship training centre (which they used) that had been built with EU structural funds.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,380
    Scott_P said:

    @BBCr4today: Philip Hammond says it will be some time before "we can introduce full migration controls between the UK and EU" #r4today

    @nickeardleybbc: Chancellor says he hopes transition will mean goods continue to flow in "much the same way they do now" in period immediately after Brexit

    The Minister for Immigration (Control) said very recently that there would be migration controls on 30th March 2019.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,188

    Morning all,

    Enjoying waking up to the news that John McCain has got his revenge on Trump two years after the original slur on his war record: always a dish best eaten cold.

    I'm not sure McCain is like that actually, he's not Osborne.

    But, he is independent-minded and does his own thing.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Scott_P said:

    As I keep saying, you lost, either suck it up or change direction, it ain't working.

    That's it?

    That's the reasoned debate we have come to expect from the Brexiteers...

    "The reason we don't need food trading standards is Leave won the referendum. Neener, neener"

    Yes that's it actually, we had a reasoned debate and Leave won.

    For the umpteenth time I invite you to make a positive case for us to rejoin the EU. In the meantime, in the list of priorities that included immigration, sovereignty, cost etc please tell me where food trading standards appeared on the list.

    You're not waving you're drowning.
    Is it listening to Philip Hammond this morning that has wound you up?
    I haven't listened to Philip Hammond and I'm totally relaxed. I'm off to Ascot races with a spring in my step happily watching you lot in denial.

    Your arguments and assertions are growing more desperate by the day.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,735
    Mr. Borough, hmm. As we're a massive net contributor, that's just using British money but slapping an EU flag on it.

    Mr. Royale, interesting. I read the other day that Austria and Slovenia (I think) had won a court case unexpectedly, allowing them to return migrants to the point of origin (namely Italy/Greece).

    Germany unilaterally deciding on an EU policy for enabling mass migration does not speak of the EU as a partnership of equals.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Scott_P said:

    As I keep saying, you lost, either suck it up or change direction, it ain't working.

    That's it?

    That's the reasoned debate we have come to expect from the Brexiteers...

    "The reason we don't need food trading standards is Leave won the referendum. Neener, neener"

    Yes that's it actually, we had a reasoned debate and Leave won.

    For the umpteenth time I invite you to make a positive case for us to rejoin the EU. In the meantime, in the list of priorities that included immigration, sovereignty, cost etc please tell me where food trading standards appeared on the list.

    You're not waving you're drowning.
    Food standards probably didn't appear on the list because the vast majority of voters had no idea what on earth the EU did and why. The Blue Flag clean beach thing would be another. Pro-Europeans bear a heavy responsibility for not explaining the positives over the years.

    I remember a vox pox being conducted by I think Sky somewhere in Wales, were a few young people said the EU had done nothing for them or Wales.

    They were stood outside an apprenticeship training centre (which they used) that had been built with EU structural funds.
    And these EU structural funds, where did that money come from?

    Hint - google net contributors.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,602
    What annoys me the remainers is they paint an idealised picture of the EU. The bureaucracy is clearly not the land of milk and honey. Yet they talk it's like we're leaving the garden of Eden.

    Brexiteers are worse. They totally overlook that he Westminster/Whitehall system is broken, has been for years and has proven its ability to resist reform. It is an ivory tower unfit to meet the needs of the British people. It has let us down consistently for decades. Yet Brexiteers cast it as a vibrant democracy, Another Eden.

    Rock and hard place.
This discussion has been closed.