Results of council by elections and deferred elections held yesterday
Con defended 20 seats held 14 lost 4 to Lab 1 to LD 1 to Ind Lab defended 14 seats held 14 LDem defended 1 seat held 1 UKIP defended 1 seat lost to LD Plaid defended 1 seat held 1 Merthyr Ind defended 2 seats lost 1 to Ind
It may be given the election result that the EU stance hardens into a take it or leave it strategy. The idea would be that EU leaders would decide this would be the time for the UK either to be fully in or fully out - no halfway house.
So either the UK would be
a) Hard Brexit - out of EU, out of customs union, out of Single Market - no preferential access whatsoever - no trade deal i.e. WTO rules.
or
b) Full EU membership - join Eurozone (ditch £ sterling), join Schengen, no rebate.
What would the minority UK government do then?
What would the UK electorate want?
In those circumstances there would be a large majority for Hard Brexit. If you can't even muster a majority for remaining in the EU on the old terms you have no chance of getting us to remain in under those terms.
No, the choice we are heading toward is between soft Brexit and no deal or, just as likely, between soft Brexit and Remain.
Remain simply isn't an option. The country would be ungovernable.
Why? As someone said earlier if it had to go to a second referendum the result would probably be different with the new, young and enthused
Because any party that tried to do that would be destroyed and a UKIP like party would end up holding the balance of power. Don't underestimate the justified sense of betrayal that would drive such a movement.
If you aren't a Tory then resurrecting the split in the Tory party is surely a spin-off benefit?
I have no interest in either supporting or destroying the Tory party. But it is basic maths again. Do you really think you couldn't find 5 or 6 dedicated Eurosceptics to bring the party down on a point of principle as fundamental as reneging on the Brexit commitment?
Out of the wreckage there remains a possible path towards no Brexit. Which is my only point. I don't argue it's the most likely route, but simply that something that looked almost impossible yesterday now looks at least possible.
Not this side of at least one more GE.
Have both votes on the same day? Even more reason for younger voters to keep up the habit.
Tractional deal = cuddling up. You will be tainted either way.
Quite possibly, although nothing could conceivably be worse than being tainted with a leader who invited convicted terrorists into the workplace of their fellow-terrorists' victims, within days of the murders and maimings, nor a Shadow Chancellor who openly celebrated the 'achievements of those murderers, and neither of these seems to have caused much electoral damage.
Nope, we're Tories and evil baby-eating scum, c*nts etc.
That's the sort of game being played by Corbynites in Britain today, and they just did very well in a GE.
Not only should we thank Ruth Davidson for preserving a Conservative government, we should also thank London's Jews. Harrow East, Hendon, Finchley, and Chipping Barnet all held out against the tide.
As leader of the Conservative Party, yes, as PM, no, until her replacement is elected in a proper campaign fully contested.
Given the largest Tory vote in a quarter of a century I'd have more sympathy if she hadn't run a 'presidential' campaign, but she did, so I don't.
I'm still slightly mystified by the 'presidential' nature of the campaign - its not in the character of the young woman I knew - possibly she was ill advised, but she took the advice, so the buck stops with her.
I was out hard canvassing in Ealing Central and Acton. I gave a few notes when I started but then we were told not to share the campaign on social media, so I STFU.
I could have written @david_herdson's post on the day pre-election. Literally dozens and dozens of previously Cons-voting Remainers absolutely furious with the Cons in general and Tezza in particular. Whole families (in multi-million pound houses) not only not voting Cons but telling me they were going to vote Lab. Lab FFS.
I asked why Jezza got a free pass on his misdemeanours and not Tezza but they weren't having any of it. They blamed the Cons for holding the EU Ref in the first place and that anger was going to be expressed at the ballot box.
They were not in the mood to hear that the EU was a boil that had to be lanced, and were of the view that no one (apart from a few themselves, they told me) understood the issues of Brexit well enough to be able to vote for it.
And now? Well as @MaxPB said earlier today, it's not all bad. A restraining factor on hard Brexit (which absolutely was the plan previously) and an awareness that the public services need investment. I am in two minds about Tezza herself. If it wasn't for the sheer opportunism (which is, of course, a part of politics), I would be strongly in favour of her staying - Gordo suffered for not calling an election and to call one showed balls. Instead, because her calling an election began the snowball of distrust in her, I am weakly in favour of her staying.
We shall see what happens over the next weeks and months but I don't see a reason to be overly pessimistic if she listens (this morning's speech not hugely indicative that she will).
Tractional deal = cuddling up. You will be tainted either way.
Quite possibly, although nothing could conceivably be worse than being tainted with a leader who invited convicted terrorists into the workplace of their fellow-terrorists' victims, within days of the murders and maimings, nor a Shadow Chancellor who openly celebrated the 'achievements of those murderers, and neither of these seems to have caused much electoral damage.
Quit it with that ad hom stuff, it didn't work, it just makes you look silly.
Your ad hom stuff on the Tories is ok, but not the same on Labour?
It may be given the election result that the EU stance hardens into a take it or leave it strategy. The idea would be that EU leaders would decide this would be the time for the UK either to be fully in or fully out - no halfway house.
So either the UK would be
a) Hard Brexit - out of EU, out of customs union, out of Single Market - no preferential access whatsoever - no trade deal i.e. WTO rules.
or
b) Full EU membership - join Eurozone (ditch £ sterling), join Schengen, no rebate.
What would the minority UK government do then?
What would the UK electorate want?
In those circumstances there would be a large majority for Hard Brexit. If you can't even muster a majority for remaining in the EU on the old terms you have no chance of getting us to remain in under those terms.
No, the choice we are heading toward is between soft Brexit and no deal or, just as likely, between soft Brexit and Remain.
Remain simply isn't an option. The country would be ungovernable.
Why? As someone said earlier if it had to go to a second referendum the result would probably be different with the new, young and enthused
Because any party that tried to do that would be destroyed and a UKIP like party would end up holding the balance of power. Don't underestimate the justified sense of betrayal that would drive such a movement.
If you aren't a Tory then resurrecting the split in the Tory party is surely a spin-off benefit?
I have no interest in either supporting or destroying the Tory party. But it is basic maths again. Do you really think you couldn't find 5 or 6 dedicated Eurosceptics to bring the party down on a point of principle as fundamental as reneging on the Brexit commitment?
Out of the wreckage there remains a possible path towards no Brexit. Which is my only point. I don't argue it's the most likely route, but simply that something that looked almost impossible yesterday now looks at least possible.
Not this side of at least one more GE.
Have both votes on the same day? Even more reason for younger voters to keep up the habit.
That would be the equivalent of mainlining heroin for political junkies. ODs everywhere.
Not only should we thank Ruth Davidson for preserving a Conservative government, we should also thank London's Jews. Harrow East, Hendon, Finchley, and Chipping Barnet all held out against the tide.
My Jewish friend from Hendon is delighted.
I had 16 text messages from him last night that are unprintable.
Tractional deal = cuddling up. You will be tainted either way.
Quite possibly, although nothing could conceivably be worse than being tainted with a leader who invited convicted terrorists into the workplace of their fellow-terrorists' victims, within days of the murders and maimings, nor a Shadow Chancellor who openly celebrated the 'achievements of those murderers, and neither of these seems to have caused much electoral damage.
Nope, we're Tories and evil baby-eating scum, c*nts etc.
That's the sort of game being played by Corbynites in Britain today, and they just did very well in a GE.
Very, very well indeed.
Come of it. The Tories and the outrides attacked Corbyn every day. Some of it was nasty. It didn't work.
Tractional deal = cuddling up. You will be tainted either way.
Quite possibly, although nothing could conceivably be worse than being tainted with a leader who invited convicted terrorists into the workplace of their fellow-terrorists' victims, within days of the murders and maimings, nor a Shadow Chancellor who openly celebrated the 'achievements of those murderers, and neither of these seems to have caused much electoral damage.
Quit it with that ad hom stuff, it didn't work, it just makes you look silly.
He's not saying it with the intention to insult. He also knows it doesn't work - he's just seen the election results! He's saying it because he thinks it's true, he thinks it's important, and it presumably scares the bejeezus out of him that the electorate do not seem to care about it - and I think he's got every right to say it. Though I don't think it would serve the Tories well to think their main mistake was not going personal enough on Jezza if we have a re-run election later this year.
Tractional deal = cuddling up. You will be tainted either way.
Quite possibly, although nothing could conceivably be worse than being tainted with a leader who invited convicted terrorists into the workplace of their fellow-terrorists' victims, within days of the murders and maimings, nor a Shadow Chancellor who openly celebrated the 'achievements of those murderers, and neither of these seems to have caused much electoral damage.
Quit it with that ad hom stuff, it didn't work, it just makes you look silly.
Edit: Deleted, because @MyBurningEars expressed my view better than I did!
I was out hard canvassing in Ealing Central and Acton. I gave a few notes when I started but then we were told not to share the campaign on social media, so I STFU.
I could have written @david_herdson's post on the day pre-election. Literally dozens and dozens of previously Cons-voting Remainers absolutely furious with the Cons in general and Tezza in particular. Whole families (in multi-million pound houses) not only not voting Cons but telling me they were going to vote Lab. Lab FFS.
I asked why Jezza got a free pass on his misdemeanours and not Tezza but they weren't having any of it. They blamed the Cons for holding the EU Ref in the first place and that anger was going to be expressed at the ballot box.
They were not in the mood to hear that the EU was a boil that had to be lanced, and were of the view that no one (apart from a few themselves, they told me) understood the issues of Brexit well enough to be able to vote for it.
And now? Well as @MaxPB said earlier today, it's not all bad. A restraining factor on hard Brexit (which absolutely was the plan previously) and an awareness that the public services need investment. I am in two minds about Tezza herself. If it wasn't for the sheer opportunism (which is, of course, a part of politics), I would be strongly in favour of her staying. Instead, because her calling an election began the snowball of distrust in here, I am weakly in favour of her staying.
We shall see what happens over the next weeks and months but I don't see a reason to be overly pessimistic if she listens (this morning's speech not hugely indicative that she will).
A very fair post, Topping. Good for you.
Sadly, I don't think Theresa is capable of listening. She has serious personality flaws.
It hangs on Labour. The default option is that they vote through the final Tory/DUP Brexit plan, despite not approving of it. This they may well do, of course. But there is nevertheless a possibility that, if the climate changes, a second referendum might become an attractive route toward doing what most of them actually want, backed by the authority of a fresh vote. As downthread, temporarily at least we have a cohort of younger voters who now know where their polling station is.
There is no vote on the final plan. One of the parties would have to introduce a bill to reverse Article 50. Do you really see anyone out there brave or stupid enough to do so?
A Farage-led UKIP would poll 30% almost overnight if anyone thought of trying it.
Brexit is happening, and for all the comment about it on here a 'hard Brexit' is now much more likely to be the outcome than a 'soft Brexit'.
We'll have to see how things play out.
Remarkable that, despite Alastair's lead, being proved wrong just a few hours ago hasn't reduced PB'ers self-belief and appetite for certain knowledge of what can and cannot happen in the future.
My advice to the more headbanging variety of PB Tory. Take a break from posting and get some rest! It wasn't a great night for you guys and think your frustrations are beginning to show in some of your posts.
Tractional deal = cuddling up. You will be tainted either way.
Quite possibly, although nothing could conceivably be worse than being tainted with a leader who invited convicted terrorists into the workplace of their fellow-terrorists' victims, within days of the murders and maimings, nor a Shadow Chancellor who openly celebrated the 'achievements of those murderers, and neither of these seems to have caused much electoral damage.
Quit it with that ad hom stuff, it didn't work, it just makes you look silly.
'It didn't work'
Exactly my point, which you seem to have missed.
But, to be clear, I am making an honest assessment of Corbyn and especially McDonnell, who are absolutely vile in my opinion. Nor it that a partisan point; many decent Labour MPs, and former MPs, agree with me, as you well know.
It's overblown. Listen to yourself. "Absolutely vile", surely that is something you might normally reserve for the likes of Saville. No wonder it didn't connect.
So, tell me, Corbynites, if Jeremy Corbyn does become PM thanks to Sinn Fein, does that validate all the Tories points about his past links with supporters of terrorism and his propensity to ally with anyone who's an enemy of his enemy*?
My advice to the more headbanging variety of PB Tory. Take a break from posting and get some rest! It wasn't a great night for you guys and think your frustrations are beginning to show in some of your posts.
Yes, getting rather nasty here. I have advised Casino to go to bed.
Seriously has anyone – anyone – though this DUP deal through? A last desperate act of a defeated woman.
You should admire TM for toughing it out and doing what she can to avoid letting the government of the UK into the hands of a bunch of spendthrift Marxists who befriend terrorists, would like to cut the army, have voted against stronger measures against terrorist, etc, etc. The reason we have had "austerity" is because the mess which the last Labour government left required difficult decisions to get back on track economically, funding public services while still reducing the deficit. Labour's manifesto was not affordable. They and the youngsters don't care about that. It would result in a repeat of the economic debacle.
Tractional deal = cuddling up. You will be tainted either way.
Quite possibly, although nothing could conceivably be worse than being tainted with a leader who invited convicted terrorists into the workplace of their fellow-terrorists' victims, within days of the murders and maimings, nor a Shadow Chancellor who openly celebrated the 'achievements of those murderers, and neither of these seems to have caused much electoral damage.
Quit it with that ad hom stuff, it didn't work, it just makes you look silly.
'It didn't work'
Exactly my point, which you seem to have missed.
But, to be clear, I am making an honest assessment of Corbyn and especially McDonnell, who are absolutely vile in my opinion. Nor it that a partisan point; many decent Labour MPs, and former MPs, agree with me, as you well know.
It's overblown. Listen to yourself. "Absolutely vile", surely that is something you might normally reserve for the likes of Saville. No wonder it didn't connect.
I agree. You would too if Corbyn and McDonnell has lost badly.
The Labour victory has brought out your donkey-in-a-red-rosette side.
Deep-down, and you are a clever chap, you know they are dangerous tossers.
I was out hard canvassing in Ealing Central and Acton. I gave a few notes when I started but then we were told not to share the campaign on social media, so I STFU.
I could have written @david_herdson's post on the day pre-election. Literally dozens and dozens of previously Cons-voting Remainers absolutely furious with the Cons in general and Tezza in particular. Whole families (in multi-million pound houses) not only not voting Cons but telling me they were going to vote Lab. Lab FFS.
I asked why Jezza got a free pass on his misdemeanours and not Tezza but they weren't having any of it. They blamed the Cons for holding the EU Ref in the first place and that anger was going to be expressed at the ballot box.....
Thanks for that.
One question: was it like that from the start, or only towards the end of the campaign?
If we have another election soon (is that still something being mooted? I've been asleep for the past few hours), I can immediately see two risks for the Tories:
1. if Scottish independence disappears from the radar as an issue and the SNP continue falling back, a lot of that split Scottish vote could drift back to Labour.
2. UKIP has nowhere to go but up, and despite how crap they were this election it's not impossible they could capitalise on hard leavers' frustrations with a soft brexit (especially if Farage comes back... has he ruled it out?)
Tractional deal = cuddling up. You will be tainted either way.
Quite possibly, although nothing could conceivably be worse than being tainted with a leader who invited convicted terrorists into the workplace of their fellow-terrorists' victims, within days of the murders and maimings, nor a Shadow Chancellor who openly celebrated the 'achievements of those murderers, and neither of these seems to have caused much electoral damage.
Nope, we're Tories and evil baby-eating scum, c*nts etc.
That's the sort of game being played by Corbynites in Britain today, and they just did very well in a GE.
Very, very well indeed.
Come of it. The Tories and the outrides attacked Corbyn every day. Some of it was nasty. It didn't work.
It didn't work, it wasn't nasty, and it was fully justified.
Tractional deal = cuddling up. You will be tainted either way.
Quite possibly, although nothing could conceivably be worse than being tainted with a leader who invited convicted terrorists into the workplace of their fellow-terrorists' victims, within days of the murders and maimings, nor a Shadow Chancellor who openly celebrated the 'achievements of those murderers, and neither of these seems to have caused much electoral damage.
Quit it with that ad hom stuff, it didn't work, it just makes you look silly.
Edit: Deleted, because @MyBurningEars expressed my view better than I did!
Cheers Richard. I voted for Corbyn (I'm a three quidder). I voted Labour yesterday. But you have one hell of a point and I think you're quite right to mention it. I just don't think you can rely on it to help you win the next GE! I guess the truth is almost all voters have something they dislike about the people they vote for, we all vote with dirty hands, and I'll add that the young'uns have no strong impression of the IRA or, perhaps excepting Jewish communities, quite how bad having "friends from Hamas" really is.
Theresa May must resign. I know, there’s some grim parody of a government being hawked from the streets of Downing Street — a Strong-and-Stable coalition of Tories and Ulster Unionists of one stripe or another — but it isn’t just incoherent of Theresa May (who fought against such coalitions of chaos, remember) to insist on being our Prime Minister, despite the election result. It’s an obscenity.
Let’s count the ways Theresa May has ruined Britain and the Conservative Party. She took a Tory majority delivered by David Cameron just two years ago and destroyed it, ending the careers of fine parliamentarians such as Ben Gummer, Jane Ellison and Gavin Barwell in the process.
She lost this general election — which she didn’t need to hold — against the most disgusting man ever to lead the Labour Party.
By losing to Corbyn — because not crushing his insidious politics is to lose to it — she has made Britain more extreme, because Corbynism is now the default position of the Left.
Tractional deal = cuddling up. You will be tainted either way.
Quite possibly, although nothing could conceivably be worse than being tainted with a leader who invited convicted terrorists into the workplace of their fellow-terrorists' victims, within days of the murders and maimings, nor a Shadow Chancellor who openly celebrated the 'achievements of those murderers, and neither of these seems to have caused much electoral damage.
Nope, we're Tories and evil baby-eating scum, c*nts etc.
That's the sort of game being played by Corbynites in Britain today, and they just did very well in a GE.
Very, very well indeed.
Come of it. The Tories and the outrides attacked Corbyn every day. Some of it was nasty. It didn't work.
It didn't work, it wasn't nasty, and it was fully justified.
You need to reappraise that. Your absolute certainty on that was part of your undoing. People disagree with you. You left yourself with nowhere to go.
So, tell me, Corbynites, if Jeremy Corbyn does become PM thanks to Sinn Fein, does that validate all the Tories points about his past links with supporters of terrorism and his propensity to ally with anyone who's an enemy of his enemy*?
(*the UK)
The Tories have just neutralised buddying up with Irish extremists!
Tractional deal = cuddling up. You will be tainted either way.
Quite possibly, although nothing could conceivably be worse than being tainted with a leader who invited convicted terrorists into the workplace of their fellow-terrorists' victims, within days of the murders and maimings, nor a Shadow Chancellor who openly celebrated the 'achievements of those murderers, and neither of these seems to have caused much electoral damage.
Quit it with that ad hom stuff, it didn't work, it just makes you look silly.
It may not have worked but those are still the facts even if you choose to ignore them or place no weight on them.
One day those facts - and all the other facts about your leader and his associates - will come back and bite your leader and your party hard.
No-one thought much about how every British government cosied up to the Saudis. Now it's something which is repelling a lot of people. Rightly, IMO.
Don't be so complacent as to assume that your own leader's associations might not come to assume more importance in the public's minds as a result of events than they currently do.
That is quite apart from any argument that such associations are bad per se as a matter of simple morality and judgment, even though I am fully aware that only a very few care about the issue on this ground.
I was out hard canvassing in Ealing Central and Acton. I gave a few notes when I started but then we were told not to share the campaign on social media, so I STFU.
I could have written @david_herdson's post on the day pre-election. Literally dozens and dozens of previously Cons-voting Remainers absolutely furious with the Cons in general and Tezza in particular. Whole families (in multi-million pound houses) not only not voting Cons but telling me they were going to vote Lab. Lab FFS.
I asked why Jezza got a free pass on his misdemeanours and not Tezza but they weren't having any of it. They blamed the Cons for holding the EU Ref in the first place and that anger was going to be expressed at the ballot box.
They were not in the mood to hear that the EU was a boil that had to be lanced, and were of the view that no one (apart from a few themselves, they told me) understood the issues of Brexit well enough to be able to vote for it.
And now? Well as @MaxPB said earlier today, it's not all bad. A restraining factor on hard Brexit (which absolutely was the plan previously) and an awareness that the public services need investment. I am in two minds about Tezza herself. If it wasn't for the sheer opportunism (which is, of course, a part of politics), I would be strongly in favour of her staying - Gordo suffered for not calling an election and to call one showed balls. Instead, because her calling an election began the snowball of distrust in her, I am weakly in favour of her staying.
We shall see what happens over the next weeks and months but I don't see a reason to be overly pessimistic if she listens (this morning's speech not hugely indicative that she will).
I think it is very wise for the actively engaged to put themselves in purdah, so far as PB is concerned, from the very start of the campaign. I can see the temptation of proclaiming that the general public thinks such and such a party looks good enough to eat, but if things turn sour then the unattractive choice is between putting it out there that your own campaign is in the shit, or whistling in the dark/suddenly going silent, which runs the risk of accusations of being less than frank with PB (and esp PBers with money at stake).
I was out hard canvassing in Ealing Central and Acton. I gave a few notes when I started but then we were told not to share the campaign on social media, so I STFU.
I could have written @david_herdson's post on the day pre-election. Literally dozens and dozens of previously Cons-voting Remainers absolutely furious with the Cons in general and Tezza in particular. Whole families (in multi-million pound houses) not only not voting Cons but telling me they were going to vote Lab. Lab FFS.
I asked why Jezza got a free pass on his misdemeanours and not Tezza but they weren't having any of it. They blamed the Cons for holding the EU Ref in the first place and that anger was going to be expressed at the ballot box.....
Thanks for that.
One question: was it like that from the start, or only towards the end of the campaign?
From the very start. ECA is a super-Remain constituency and there was a lot of anger. I spoke to several people directly affected by the social care announcements but they put it in to a "policy" bucket rather than an ideological one where Brexit was.
Something I forgot to add - there were dozens and dozens of young Lab GOTV-ers on the street yesterday. No idea how much GOTV works, but if it does, it did yesterday. There were plenty of us but they were in a different league, numbers-wise. (Not quality-wise, obvs )
Mr. Royale, that *might* be a positive for the Conservatives.
If such people were going to vote Labour anyway, best they do it in an election the blues end up (just) winning. If they return to the Conservatives next time, we might see another rise in blue seats as the poison of the EU referendum has been drawn.
On the other hand, they may have gotten into the habit of voting Labour. We'll see in five years (or a few months).
I was out hard canvassing in Ealing Central and Acton. I gave a few notes when I started but then we were told not to share the campaign on social media, so I STFU.
I could have written @david_herdson's post on the day pre-election. Literally dozens and dozens of previously Cons-voting Remainers absolutely furious with the Cons in general and Tezza in particular. Whole families (in multi-million pound houses) not only not voting Cons but telling me they were going to vote Lab. Lab FFS.
I asked why Jezza got a free pass on his misdemeanours and not Tezza but they weren't having any of it. They blamed the Cons for holding the EU Ref in the first place and that anger was going to be expressed at the ballot box.....
Thanks for that.
One question: was it like that from the start, or only towards the end of the campaign?
From the very start. ECA is a super-Remain constituency and there was a lot of anger. I spoke to several people directly affected by the social care announcements but they put it in to a "policy" bucket rather than an ideological one where Brexit was.
Something I forgot to add - there were dozens and dozens of young Lab GOTV-ers on the street yesterday. No idea how much GOTV works, but if it does, it did yesterday. There were plenty of us but they were in a different league, numbers-wise. (Not quality-wise, obvs )
IOS will be posting here shortly........ can it get any worse?
Tractional deal = cuddling up. You will be tainted either way.
Quite possibly, although nothing could conceivably be worse than being tainted with a leader who invited convicted terrorists into the workplace of their fellow-terrorists' victims, within days of the murders and maimings, nor a Shadow Chancellor who openly celebrated the 'achievements of those murderers, and neither of these seems to have caused much electoral damage.
Quit it with that ad hom stuff, it didn't work, it just makes you look silly.
'It didn't work'
Exactly my point, which you seem to have missed.
But, to be clear, I am making an honest assessment of Corbyn and especially McDonnell, who are absolutely vile in my opinion. Nor it that a partisan point; many decent Labour MPs, and former MPs, agree with me, as you well know.
It's overblown. Listen to yourself. "Absolutely vile", surely that is something you might normally reserve for the likes of Saville. No wonder it didn't connect.
I agree. You would too if Corbyn and McDonnell has lost badly.
The Labour victory has brought out your donkey-in-a-red-rosette side.
Deep-down, and you are a clever chap, you know they are dangerous tossers.
As someone who was a leftie, and whose views changed after seeing the hard left fairly close up, I can identify with the voters who see Corbyn as a kindly old man of the people. He comes across well to me too, I agree with him on certain issues, he speaks with conviction and passion, but have to keep sticking a fork in my leg to remind myself that these scruffy old lefties aren't harmless just because they look like the utter wallies who you went to school with but never caught their name.
The problem is, once people, all people, make their minds up they see everything through that prism. I said it before, it is how old school racists think - "He is black, his motives are suspect/He is white, He probably didn't mean it"
I was out hard canvassing in Ealing Central and Acton. I gave a few notes when I started but then we were told not to share the campaign on social media, so I STFU.
I could have written @david_herdson's post on the day pre-election. Literally dozens and dozens of previously Cons-voting Remainers absolutely furious with the Cons in general and Tezza in particular. Whole families (in multi-million pound houses) not only not voting Cons but telling me they were going to vote Lab. Lab FFS.
I asked why Jezza got a free pass on his misdemeanours and not Tezza but they weren't having any of it. They blamed the Cons for holding the EU Ref in the first place and that anger was going to be expressed at the ballot box.
They were not in the mood to hear that the EU was a boil that had to be lanced, and were of the view that no one (apart from a few themselves, they told me) understood the issues of Brexit well enough to be able to vote for it.
And now? Well as @MaxPB said earlier today, it's not all bad. A restraining factor on hard Brexit (which absolutely was the plan previously) and an awareness that the public services need investment. I am in two minds about Tezza herself. If it wasn't for the sheer opportunism (which is, of course, a part of politics), I would be strongly in favour of her staying - Gordo suffered for not calling an election and to call one showed balls. Instead, because her calling an election began the snowball of distrust in her, I am weakly in favour of her staying.
We shall see what happens over the next weeks and months but I don't see a reason to be overly pessimistic if she listens (this morning's speech not hugely indicative that she will).
I think it is very wise for the actively engaged to put themselves in purdah, so far as PB is concerned, from the very start of the campaign. I can see the temptation of proclaiming that the general public thinks such and such a party looks good enough to eat, but if things turn sour then the unattractive choice is between putting it out there that your own campaign is in the shit, or whistling in the dark/suddenly going silent, which runs the risk of accusations of being less than frank with PB (and esp PBers with money at stake).
Last night was pretty bad and I was going to write a one word post: "F***********k!"
But decided not to. Then I heard that there was still and expectation of an OM, which I did note on here. FWIwasW.
Cheers Richard. I voted for Corbyn (I'm a three quidder). I voted Labour yesterday. But you have one hell of a point and I think you're quite right to mention it. I just don't think you can rely on it to help you win the next GE! I guess the truth is almost all voters have something they dislike about the people they vote for, we all vote with dirty hands, and I'll add that the young'uns have no strong impression of the IRA or, perhaps excepting Jewish communities, quite how bad having "friends from Hamas" really is.
Absolutely right. One of the many mistakes the Conservatives made was that they couldn't decide whether they were attacking Corbyn as a bumbling old bearded leftie who is quite sweet and well-meaning but terribly naive about terrorism and nuclear deterrence, and who therefore wasn't safe to be allowed anywhere near a position of power, or someone with 30 years' history of actively supporting our enemies and therefore dangerous. You can't run both attacks simultaneously; they should have stuck rigorously to the first, and tied it in to naivety about economics and everything else where Corbyn's confusion was so evident.
Tractional deal = cuddling up. You will be tainted either way.
Quite possibly, although nothing could conceivably be worse than being tainted with a leader who invited convicted terrorists into the workplace of their fellow-terrorists' victims, within days of the murders and maimings, nor a Shadow Chancellor who openly celebrated the 'achievements of those murderers, and neither of these seems to have caused much electoral damage.
Quit it with that ad hom stuff, it didn't work, it just makes you look silly.
It may not have worked but those are still the facts even if you choose to ignore them or place no weight on them.
One day those facts - and all the other facts about your leader and his associates - will come back and bite your leader and your party hard.
No-one thought much about how every British government cosied up to the Saudis. Now it's something which is repelling a lot of people. Rightly, IMO.
Don't be so complacent as to assume that your own leader's associations might not come to assume more importance in the public's minds as a result of events than they currently do.
That is quite apart from any argument that such associations are bad per se as a matter of simple morality and judgment, even though I am fully aware that only a very few care about the issue on this ground.
Your opinions about Corbyn are not just facts, they are highly charged and emotive. So utterly convinced were you, you were not alone in expressing them in terms that diminished and then destroyed the power of your argument.
There is much to disagree with in Corbyn's past, but you don't have to resort to the language that is usually reserved by the tabloids for child killers. And there are other aspects to Corbyn that you ignore.
I was out hard canvassing in Ealing Central and Acton. I gave a few notes when I started but then we were told not to share the campaign on social media, so I STFU.
I could have written @david_herdson's post on the day pre-election. Literally dozens and dozens of previously Cons-voting Remainers absolutely furious with the Cons in general and Tezza in particular. Whole families (in multi-million pound houses) not only not voting Cons but telling me they were going to vote Lab. Lab FFS.
I asked why Jezza got a free pass on his misdemeanours and not Tezza but they weren't having any of it. They blamed the Cons for holding the EU Ref in the first place and that anger was going to be expressed at the ballot box.
They were not in the mood to hear that the EU was a boil that had to be lanced, and were of the view that no one (apart from a few themselves, they told me) understood the issues of Brexit well enough to be able to vote for it.
And now? Well as @MaxPB said earlier today, it's not all bad. A restraining factor on hard Brexit (which absolutely was the plan previously) and an awareness that the public services need investment. I am in two minds about Tezza herself. If it wasn't for the sheer opportunism (which is, of course, a part of politics), I would be strongly in favour of her staying - Gordo suffered for not calling an election and to call one showed balls. Instead, because her calling an election began the snowball of distrust in her, I am weakly in favour of her staying.
We shall see what happens over the next weeks and months but I don't see a reason to be overly pessimistic if she listens (this morning's speech not hugely indicative that she will).
I think it is very wise for the actively engaged to put themselves in purdah, so far as PB is concerned, from the very start of the campaign. I can see the temptation of proclaiming that the general public thinks such and such a party looks good enough to eat, but if things turn sour then the unattractive choice is between putting it out there that your own campaign is in the shit, or whistling in the dark/suddenly going silent, which runs the risk of accusations of being less than frank with PB (and esp PBers with money at stake).
Otoh Brexit made out canvassing anecdotes to be the new gold standard which persisted quite far on into this election. I guess it comes and goes, and there'll be a lot less next time out.
Mind you, Herdson's post was certainly one of PB 's signature moments.
Tractional deal = cuddling up. You will be tainted either way.
Quite possibly, although nothing could conceivably be worse than being tainted with a leader who invited convicted terrorists into the workplace of their fellow-terrorists' victims, within days of the murders and maimings, nor a Shadow Chancellor who openly celebrated the 'achievements of those murderers, and neither of these seems to have caused much electoral damage.
Quit it with that ad hom stuff, it didn't work, it just makes you look silly.
'It didn't work'
Exactly my point, which you seem to have missed.
But, to be clear, I am making an honest assessment of Corbyn and especially McDonnell, who are absolutely vile in my opinion. Nor it that a partisan point; many decent Labour MPs, and former MPs, agree with me, as you well know.
It's overblown. Listen to yourself. "Absolutely vile", surely that is something you might normally reserve for the likes of Saville. No wonder it didn't connect.
I agree. You would too if Corbyn and McDonnell has lost badly.
The Labour victory has brought out your donkey-in-a-red-rosette side.
Deep-down, and you are a clever chap, you know they are dangerous tossers.
As someone who was a leftie, and whose views changed after seeing the hard left fairly close up, I can identify with the voters who see Corbyn as a kindly old man of the people. He comes across well to me too, I agree with him on certain issues, he speaks with conviction and passion, but have to keep sticking a fork in my leg to remind myself that these scruffy old lefties aren't harmless just because they look like the utter wallies who you went to school with but never caught their name.
The problem is, once people, all people, make their minds up they see everything through that prism. I said it before, it is how old school racists think - "He is black, his motives are suspect/He is white, He probably didn't mean it"
Oh yeah, and the DUP could be toxic if the media makes hay with their views.
The DUP's views are 5 cans short of a 6 pack. Once the national media get the idea, interviews should become immensely entertaining for all the wrong reasons
I was out hard canvassing in Ealing Central and Acton. I gave a few notes when I started but then we were told not to share the campaign on social media, so I STFU.
I could have written @david_herdson's post on the day pre-election. Literally dozens and dozens of previously Cons-voting Remainers absolutely furious with the Cons in general and Tezza in particular. Whole families (in multi-million pound houses) not only not voting Cons but telling me they were going to vote Lab. Lab FFS.
I asked why Jezza got a free pass on his misdemeanours and not Tezza but they weren't having any of it. They blamed the Cons for holding the EU Ref in the first place and that anger was going to be expressed at the ballot box.
They were not in the mood to hear that the EU was a boil that had to be lanced, and were of the view that no one (apart from a few themselves, they told me) understood the issues of Brexit well enough to be able to vote for it.
And now? Well as @MaxPB said earlier today, it's not all bad. A restraining factor on hard Brexit (which absolutely was the plan previously) and an awareness that the public services need investment. I am in two minds about Tezza herself. If it wasn't for the sheer opportunism (which is, of course, a part of politics), I would be strongly in favour of her staying - Gordo suffered for not calling an election and to call one showed balls. Instead, because her calling an election began the snowball of distrust in her, I am weakly in favour of her staying.
We shall see what happens over the next weeks and months but I don't see a reason to be overly pessimistic if she listens (this morning's speech not hugely indicative that she will).
I think it is very wise for the actively engaged to put themselves in purdah, so far as PB is concerned, from the very start of the campaign. I can see the temptation of proclaiming that the general public thinks such and such a party looks good enough to eat, but if things turn sour then the unattractive choice is between putting it out there that your own campaign is in the shit, or whistling in the dark/suddenly going silent, which runs the risk of accusations of being less than frank with PB (and esp PBers with money at stake).
Otoh Brexit made out canvassing anecdotes to be the new gold standard which persisted quite far on into this election. I guess it comes and goes, and there'll be a lot less next time out.
Mind you, Herdson's post was certainly one of PB 's signature moments.
I did say mid-way through the campaign that I had backed NOM and Lab OM but I suppose that was all part of the noise and who the hell am I anyway for anyone to read anything into it....
So, tell me, Corbynites, if Jeremy Corbyn does become PM thanks to Sinn Fein, does that validate all the Tories points about his past links with supporters of terrorism and his propensity to ally with anyone who's an enemy of his enemy*?
(*the UK)
The Tories have just neutralised buddying up with Irish extremists!
Whatever their faults, the DUP are not implicated in the murder of British soldiers and police officers
All the overblown hype on whether Corbyn would or would not push the button was utterly irrelevant to the very real and present decisions for this parliament. Tories wasted so much time on that.
So, tell me, Corbynites, if Jeremy Corbyn does become PM thanks to Sinn Fein, does that validate all the Tories points about his past links with supporters of terrorism and his propensity to ally with anyone who's an enemy of his enemy*?
(*the UK)
The Tories have just neutralised buddying up with Irish extremists!
Not sure the Tories ever invited them to the HoC within days of them trying to assassinate the PM and Cabinet....
Tractional deal = cuddling up. You will be tainted either way.
Quite possibly, although nothing could conceivably be worse than being tainted with a leader who invited convicted terrorists into the workplace of their fellow-terrorists' victims, within days of the murders and maimings, nor a Shadow Chancellor who openly celebrated the 'achievements of those murderers, and neither of these seems to have caused much electoral damage.
Quit it with that ad hom stuff, it didn't work, it just makes you look silly.
It may not have worked but those are still the facts even if you choose to ignore them or place no weight on them.
One day those facts - and all the other facts about your leader and his associates - will come back and bite your leader and your party hard.
No-one thought much about how every British government cosied up to the Saudis. Now it's something which is repelling a lot of people. Rightly, IMO.
Don't be so complacent as to assume that your own leader's associations might not come to assume more importance in the public's minds as a result of events than they currently do.
That is quite apart from any argument that such associations are bad per se as a matter of simple morality and judgment, even though I am fully aware that only a very few care about the issue on this ground.
Your opinions about Corbyn are not just facts, they are highly charged and emotive. So utterly convinced were you, you were not alone in expressing them in terms that diminished and then destroyed the power of your argument.
There is much to disagree with in Corbyn's past, but you don't have to resort to the language that is usually reserved by the tabloids for child killers. And there are other aspects to Corbyn that you ignore.
Given Corbyn's past as a useful idiot for terrorist groups and dictators, the language seems entirely appropriate.
But stop with this 40 years ago nonsense. As you well know your leader has been associating with some pretty unpleasant people other than the IRA, right up until the present day. You may think it of no importance but facts cannot be denied.
Truthfully, I can't think of any unpleasant groups who he's been associating with since becoming leader, let alone urging them to join a potenil Government. Who did you have in mind?
Mr. Nabavi, not to mention that throwing away austerity and no mention of economic reality from the Conservatives meant there was no attacking of Labour's free unicorns for everyone (two on Sundays).
Cheers Richard. I voted for Corbyn (I'm a three quidder). I voted Labour yesterday. But you have one hell of a point and I think you're quite right to mention it. I just don't think you can rely on it to help you win the next GE! I guess the truth is almost all voters have something they dislike about the people they vote for, we all vote with dirty hands, and I'll add that the young'uns have no strong impression of the IRA or, perhaps excepting Jewish communities, quite how bad having "friends from Hamas" really is.
Absolutely right. One of the many mistakes the Conservatives made was that they couldn't decide whether they were attacking Corbyn as a bumbling old bearded leftie who is quite sweet and well-meaning but terribly naive about terrorism and nuclear deterrence, and who therefore wasn't safe to be allowed anywhere near a position of power, or someone with 30 years' history of actively supporting our enemies and therefore dangerous. You can't run both attacks simultaneously; they should have stuck rigorously to the first, and tied it in to naivety about economics and everything else where Corbyn's confusion was so evident.
Not least because the first is probably closest to the truth.
I was out hard canvassing in Ealing Central and Acton. I gave a few notes when I started but then we were told not to share the campaign on social media, so I STFU.
I could have written @david_herdson's post on the day pre-election. Literally dozens and dozens of previously Cons-voting Remainers absolutely furious with the Cons in general and Tezza in particular. Whole families (in multi-million pound houses) not only not voting Cons but telling me they were going to vote Lab. Lab FFS.
I asked why Jezza got a free pass on his misdemeanours and not Tezza but they weren't having any of it. They blamed the Cons for holding the EU Ref in the first place and that anger was going to be expressed at the ballot box.
They were not in the mood to hear that the EU was a boil that had to be lanced, and were of the view that no one (apart from a few themselves, they told me) understood the issues of Brexit well enough to be able to vote for it.
And now? Well as @MaxPB said earlier today, it's not all bad. A restraining factor on hard Brexit (which absolutely was the plan previously) and an awareness that the public services need investment. I am in two minds about Tezza herself. If it wasn't for the sheer opportunism (which is, of course, a part of politics), I would be strongly in favour of her staying - Gordo suffered for not calling an election and to call one showed balls. Instead, because her calling an election began the snowball of distrust in her, I am weakly in favour of her staying.
We shall see what happens over the next weeks and months but I don't see a reason to be overly pessimistic if she listens (this morning's speech not hugely indicative that she will).
I think it is very wise for the actively engaged to put themselves in purdah, so far as PB is concerned, from the very start of the campaign. I can see the temptation of proclaiming that the general public thinks such and such a party looks good enough to eat, but if things turn sour then the unattractive choice is between putting it out there that your own campaign is in the shit, or whistling in the dark/suddenly going silent, which runs the risk of accusations of being less than frank with PB (and esp PBers with money at stake).
Otoh Brexit made out canvassing anecdotes to be the new gold standard which persisted quite far on into this election. I guess it comes and goes, and there'll be a lot less next time out.
Mind you, Herdson's post was certainly one of PB 's signature moments.
I was on an extended sabbatical from PB over the EUref campaign. I almost feel another one coming on...
All the overblown hype on whether Corbyn would or would not push the button was utterly irrelevant to the very real and present decisions for this parliament. Tories wasted so much time on that.
Without a doubt. As a commentator on R5 said, even the terrorist attacks became an issue not of security, but of spending cuts.
if Jeremy Corbyn does become PM thanks to Sinn Fein
Wait, how on earth does that work?
May can't form a Government with the DUP. She resigns. HMQ sends for Corbyn. He says I can do SNP+PC+Green+SF+Labour minority. LDs give him a shot or abstain.
So, tell me, Corbynites, if Jeremy Corbyn does become PM thanks to Sinn Fein, does that validate all the Tories points about his past links with supporters of terrorism and his propensity to ally with anyone who's an enemy of his enemy*?
(*the UK)
The Tories have just neutralised buddying up with Irish extremists!
All the overblown hype on whether Corbyn would or would not push the button was utterly irrelevant to the very real and present decisions for this parliament. Tories wasted so much time on that.
Do we know what arrangement Theresa and Arlene have made about the button? Will Theresa have it during the week and Arlene at weekends, or something?
Tractional deal = cuddling up. You will be tainted either way.
Quite possibly, although nothing could conceivably be worse than being tainted with a leader who invited convicted terrorists into the workplace of their fellow-terrorists' victims, within days of the murders and maimings, nor a Shadow Chancellor who openly celebrated the 'achievements of those murderers, and neither of these seems to have caused much electoral damage.
Nope, we're Tories and evil baby-eating scum, c*nts etc.
That's the sort of game being played by Corbynites in Britain today, and they just did very well in a GE.
Very, very well indeed.
Come of it. The Tories and the outrides attacked Corbyn every day. Some of it was nasty. It didn't work.
It didn't work, it wasn't nasty, and it was fully justified.
You need to reappraise that. Your absolute certainty on that was part of your undoing. People disagree with you. You left yourself with nowhere to go.
Yes, I think we understand you will forgive Corbyn/McDonnell everything because they won.
It's a shame you're not more principled than that, but hey ho. I guess the colours of the football team are too strong a draw.
Comments
Con defended 20 seats held 14 lost 4 to Lab 1 to LD 1 to Ind
Lab defended 14 seats held 14
LDem defended 1 seat held 1
UKIP defended 1 seat lost to LD
Plaid defended 1 seat held 1
Merthyr Ind defended 2 seats lost 1 to Ind
That's the sort of game being played by Corbynites in Britain today, and they just did very well in a GE.
Very, very well indeed.
I was out hard canvassing in Ealing Central and Acton. I gave a few notes when I started but then we were told not to share the campaign on social media, so I STFU.
I could have written @david_herdson's post on the day pre-election. Literally dozens and dozens of previously Cons-voting Remainers absolutely furious with the Cons in general and Tezza in particular. Whole families (in multi-million pound houses) not only not voting Cons but telling me they were going to vote Lab. Lab FFS.
I asked why Jezza got a free pass on his misdemeanours and not Tezza but they weren't having any of it. They blamed the Cons for holding the EU Ref in the first place and that anger was going to be expressed at the ballot box.
They were not in the mood to hear that the EU was a boil that had to be lanced, and were of the view that no one (apart from a few themselves, they told me) understood the issues of Brexit well enough to be able to vote for it.
And now? Well as @MaxPB said earlier today, it's not all bad. A restraining factor on hard Brexit (which absolutely was the plan previously) and an awareness that the public services need investment. I am in two minds about Tezza herself. If it wasn't for the sheer opportunism (which is, of course, a part of politics), I would be strongly in favour of her staying - Gordo suffered for not calling an election and to call one showed balls. Instead, because her calling an election began the snowball of distrust in her, I am weakly in favour of her staying.
We shall see what happens over the next weeks and months but I don't see a reason to be overly pessimistic if she listens (this morning's speech not hugely indicative that she will).
Right. Got it.
I had 16 text messages from him last night that are unprintable.
Put it this way: he wasn't a floating voter.
Sadly, I don't think Theresa is capable of listening. She has serious personality flaws.
Remarkable that, despite Alastair's lead, being proved wrong just a few hours ago hasn't reduced PB'ers self-belief and appetite for certain knowledge of what can and cannot happen in the future.
Bizarrely the biggest losers seem to be labour supporters, most on here loathe Corbyn, now they've got him for years.
(*the UK)
It's a funny old world.
The Labour victory has brought out your donkey-in-a-red-rosette side.
Deep-down, and you are a clever chap, you know they are dangerous tossers.
One question: was it like that from the start, or only towards the end of the campaign?
1. if Scottish independence disappears from the radar as an issue and the SNP continue falling back, a lot of that split Scottish vote could drift back to Labour.
2. UKIP has nowhere to go but up, and despite how crap they were this election it's not impossible they could capitalise on hard leavers' frustrations with a soft brexit (especially if Farage comes back... has he ruled it out?)
Let’s count the ways Theresa May has ruined Britain and the Conservative Party. She took a Tory majority delivered by David Cameron just two years ago and destroyed it, ending the careers of fine parliamentarians such as Ben Gummer, Jane Ellison and Gavin Barwell in the process.
She lost this general election — which she didn’t need to hold — against the most disgusting man ever to lead the Labour Party.
By losing to Corbyn — because not crushing his insidious politics is to lose to it — she has made Britain more extreme, because Corbynism is now the default position of the Left.
https://capx.co/theresa-may-must-go-and-go-now/
Ruth came to May's rescue, bigly.
One day those facts - and all the other facts about your leader and his associates - will come back and bite your leader and your party hard.
No-one thought much about how every British government cosied up to the Saudis. Now it's something which is repelling a lot of people. Rightly, IMO.
Don't be so complacent as to assume that your own leader's associations might not come to assume more importance in the public's minds as a result of events than they currently do.
That is quite apart from any argument that such associations are bad per se as a matter of simple morality and judgment, even though I am fully aware that only a very few care about the issue on this ground.
Something I forgot to add - there were dozens and dozens of young Lab GOTV-ers on the street yesterday. No idea how much GOTV works, but if it does, it did yesterday. There were plenty of us but they were in a different league, numbers-wise. (Not quality-wise, obvs
If such people were going to vote Labour anyway, best they do it in an election the blues end up (just) winning. If they return to the Conservatives next time, we might see another rise in blue seats as the poison of the EU referendum has been drawn.
On the other hand, they may have gotten into the habit of voting Labour. We'll see in five years (or a few months).
The problem is, once people, all people, make their minds up they see everything through that prism. I said it before, it is how old school racists think - "He is black, his motives are suspect/He is white, He probably didn't mean it"
But decided not to. Then I heard that there was still and expectation of an OM, which I did note on here. FWIwasW.
There is much to disagree with in Corbyn's past, but you don't have to resort to the language that is usually reserved by the tabloids for child killers. And there are other aspects to Corbyn that you ignore.
Mind you, Herdson's post was certainly one of PB 's signature moments.
Was thinking more of it being an actual hung parliament than the DUP's influence/Con minority government.
Although I do think this situation allows the UK to avoid the economically disastrous policies of both Labour and the Conservatives.
It's a shame you're not more principled than that, but hey ho. I guess the colours of the football team are too strong a draw.