If anybody here doesn't have enough money Bet365 go 8/13 Labour hold in Rhondda. They polled over 50% in 2015, almost double Plaid in second. UKIP were 3rd and we know how well they're both polling this time round. 37th safest Labour seat in GB. Who's going to take it from them? but DYOR.
People should re read the threads on here from the weeks preceding GE2015 and last years EU ref.
The narrative was NOM was value at 1.1 and Leave were fucked. Remainers used to post the Leave price every time it drifted as a troll! People accepted these narratives and managed to save face by reacting to the exit poll and using @AndyJS spreadsheet
Teams that are losing often start fighting internally. "It was your fault!" "But you said...!" Theresa May is falling apart, so is the party's campaign, and who knows what will be left of the party once a Corbyn government negotiates a deal either to stay in the SM or to stay in a reformed EU. Can Boris pitch in, pleeease!
hate to say it but corbyn is right about south thanet
Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said the Tories' decision to comment on the case could be seen as "interference" in an independent process. He said: "Nobody should be commenting on the details of an ongoing case, the police must be allowed to act independently, to investigate on the basis of any evidence they've got and the Crown Prosecution Service must be allowed to make its decision on whether to proceed on a case. "I think it is a very bad road when democratically elected politicians start offering a running commentary on independent judicial processes. We have to have total separation of political and judicial powers in this country."
There aren't any "democratically elected politicians" - at least as far as Westminster is concerned - at the moment are there?
Yes but if the case went to trial by jury, the case would collapse as the jury wouldnt be able to make a verdict. Only a judge can make a verdict on this case because of the tory attacks.
The bottom line was this was a conservative plot to do anything at all costs to prevent farage from winning.
That assumes that anyone on the jury will have heard any comment. But yes, no-one should be spouting off on the decision at the moment.
On twitter many Corbyn supporters genuinely believe that it'll be those on 80k who will 'pay' for all of the things in the manifesto. They've even been mocking those on 35k for not voting Corbyn, saying that they won't be taxed so why are they worried.
Just shows their naivety and stupidity.
We will all pay more tax. A lot more.
If you make £300 a day. £1500 a week. you only get £810 (deductions of student loan/pension included) its about 940-950 without pension/loan)
When I get my p60, its sole destroying to see over a year how much tax and especially national insurance you've paid and you get nothing from it. I don't use the nhs, i'm not unemployed, i don't run a business, I commute to work.
I pay council tax, road tax, health insurance, denplan, have insurance for my cat, pay for my tv, electricity, gas, water, pay for my train to work, pay for my car insurance, pay for home insurance.
I wonder what my taxes are paying for when I get nothing from it. We should have opt out for public services I don't want to pay for people to see their gp for example - OPT OUT.
On twitter many Corbyn supporters genuinely believe that it'll be those on 80k who will 'pay' for all of the things in the manifesto. They've even been mocking those on 35k for not voting Corbyn, saying that they won't be taxed so why are they worried.
I worked out the other day that 3% of taxpayers, about 900,000 individuals, are on £80k or more and that on average they're on £42k more. I went on to estimate that if you expropriated every penny over £80k, it would raise only £38 billion.
In fact I erred there, because of course the £38 billion is before tax. But those people already pay tax on those > £80k earnings. Someone on £122k pays £48k in tax, which is £22k more than someone on £80k. So of their extra £42k, they already give up more than half.
So incrementally you could in fact only take what's left. That would be about £18 billion. Except it wouldn't, because if you took all of people's earnings above £80k, all salaries will be reduced to £80k. So what you could actually take from people on over £80k would sum to somewhere south of £18 billion, and probably a long way south.
There is an embedded assumption in Labour plans that "the rich" have enough money to pay for everything they can think up. Unfortunately the reality is that the "the rich" aren't anywhere rich enough, and if you take too much of what you do have you find as Hollande did that you pretty quickly run out of rich people.
Teams that are losing often start fighting internally. "It was your fault!" "But you said...!" Theresa May is falling apart, so is the party's campaign, and who knows what will be left of the party once a Corbyn government negotiates a deal either to stay in the SM or to stay in a reformed EU. Can Boris pitch in, pleeease!
I'm getting nervous about this Question Time thing tonight. What if - in some kind of bizarre parody of Nixon and Kennedy - Theresa is all stuttering, sweaty and nervous and Jezza pulls off all the likeable panache of a (somewhat ageing) JFK?
'She's like Brown, but without Gordon's social graces and joie de vivre'. LOL!
Brown was wrong about most things but he's an absolute political titan compared to Theresa.
She's taking a hammering today, and rightly so. But if this time next week, she has (as I still think quite possible) a 100+ majority, it'll be funny to read all the testimonials concerning the genius of her campaign.
I doubt anyone will be saying she ran a good campaign because she hasn't.
It's been a poor campaign, but nowhere near as poor as people are saying atm. I reckon her problem has been expectations. The media love stories, and unfortunately for May and the Conservatives, Corbyn being an idiot and Labour's unelectability are not stories that will particularly interest their readers. It's all been said before.
But the Conservatives imploding is a story. It's entropy; it's change, and that means interest.
There's no way the media were going to spend a month running on only 'The Conservatives are going to get a landslide'. There had to be something else, so every misstep they have made has been reported on endlessly.
But yes, the mistakes have been their own. Just a few weeks ago we were talking about the brand being May and not the Conservatives; she should have continued playing to that instead of cowering away from debate.
My main issue is that I still don't know what May stands for. There seems to be an awful lot of waffle and no substance (*). Still, at least she's not Leadsom ...
(*) A bit like my posts.
I think what is dawning on most people is that she doesn't actually have much of a philosophy at all. If she meant what she said on the steps of No 10 about the JAMS then what has she got in her manifesto to help and enthuse them? The sad thing is, the waffle and lack of substance you describe *does* seem to be what she's about.
I'll give her the benefit of the doubt one more time (and potentially ruin a Friday evening) by watching her tonight on QT. I want to hear some authenticity and some proper answers. If not.. I'll get really angry and continue slagging her off on here.
'She's like Brown, but without Gordon's social graces and joie de vivre'. LOL!
Brown was wrong about most things but he's an absolute political titan compared to Theresa.
She's taking a hammering today, and rightly so. But if this time next week, she has (as I still think quite possible) a 100+ majority, it'll be funny to read all the testimonials concerning the genius of her campaign.
Well unsettling your core support really was crass and it was followed by her hectoring of journalists.
Nevertheless, there is a point about the care of old people in this country which was right to address. Tackling that through people's homes is a cracking piece of Marxist ideology and has horribly backfired.
I still think the Conservatives will win handsomely. The general mood isn't for Corbyn, whatever his acolytes might wish to think.
10% Tory lead I reckon: something like 44 - 34 or 45 - 35.
I have to say I didn't sniff revolution in the air in Asda this morning. .
On twitter many Corbyn supporters genuinely believe that it'll be those on 80k who will 'pay' for all of the things in the manifesto. They've even been mocking those on 35k for not voting Corbyn, saying that they won't be taxed so why are they worried.
I'll be on £80k next year once the bonus kicks in. I should be paying more tax. The poor the sick the grafting yet reliant on foodbacks aren't undeserving, they are my neighbours and family and friends.
I've done very well for myself under the Tory government these last 7 years. But I'm ashamed of what this country has become under them, a society where we treat our pets better than we treat the disabled. It has to stop.
I think the issue is, is that it won't only be those earning 80k or more who will be paying a lot more in tax. Many appear to think that those who earn below 80k will not see their taxes rise under Corbyn.
On twitter many Corbyn supporters genuinely believe that it'll be those on 80k who will 'pay' for all of the things in the manifesto. They've even been mocking those on 35k for not voting Corbyn, saying that they won't be taxed so why are they worried.
Just shows their naivety and stupidity.
We will all pay more tax. A lot more.
If you make £300 a day. £1500 a week. you only get £810 (deductions of student loan/pension included) its about 940-950 without pension/loan)
When I get my p60, its sole destroying to see over a year how much tax and especially national insurance you've paid and you get nothing from it. I don't use the nhs, i'm not unemployed, i don't run a business, I commute to work.
I pay council tax, road tax, health insurance, denplan, have insurance for my cat, pay for my tv, electricity, gas, water, pay for my train to work, pay for my car insurance, pay for home insurance.
I wonder what my taxes are paying for when I get nothing from it. We should have opt out for public services I don't want to pay for people to see their gp for example - OPT OUT.
You'll get a pension. Meanwhile you are protected by the Trident missile system. And your local Police.
On twitter many Corbyn supporters genuinely believe that it'll be those on 80k who will 'pay' for all of the things in the manifesto. They've even been mocking those on 35k for not voting Corbyn, saying that they won't be taxed so why are they worried.
Just shows their naivety and stupidity.
We will all pay more tax. A lot more.
If you make £300 a day. £1500 a week. you only get £810 (deductions of student loan/pension included) its about 940-950 without pension/loan)
When I get my p60, its sole destroying to see over a year how much tax and especially national insurance you've paid and you get nothing from it. I don't use the nhs, i'm not unemployed, i don't run a business, I commute to work.
I pay council tax, road tax, health insurance, denplan, have insurance for my cat, pay for my tv, electricity, gas, water, pay for my train to work, pay for my car insurance, pay for home insurance.
I wonder what my taxes are paying for when I get nothing from it. We should have opt out for public services I don't want to pay for people to see their gp for example - OPT OUT.
Ridiculous. That would just mean every time you use it you have to pay a huge amount of back taxes to pay for your treatment.
If anybody here doesn't have enough money Bet365 go 8/13 Labour hold in Rhondda. They polled over 50% in 2015, almost double Plaid in second. UKIP were 3rd and we know how well they're both polling this time round. 37th safest Labour seat in GB. Who's going to take it from them? but DYOR.
You cannot move for the sea of Plaid flags from Tonypandy to Treherbert. The Rhonnda and the Heads of the Valley areas from Merthyr to Ebbw Vales could cause big surprises.
"She pointed out that the party’s internal polling at the start of the campaign gave the Tories a 50 seat majority, and argued that the data should have been leaked in order to temper expectations weeks ago."
At work, I've noticed a lot of the green party/non voters from 2015 going to vote for Corbyn this year. Don't worry its a london office so unless you live in tooting, wimbledon, ealing, barnet, hampstead you have nothing to worry about.
corbyn has definitely got the green vote in london.
David I'm not trolling about Davis. His pet issues are mostly to do with not letting the state become over-intrusive. I know many people want nannying but, even in a world with terrorists, there is a point at which government overreach does more harm than good. His flounce by-election and subsequent sacking by Dave were of a theme. As a PM he'd be dull, solid, Brexity, right about most things, able to communicate and rip Corbyn a new one. He'd be very safe. He can talk human.
We might just have to disagree about most of that.
I agree with him (and you?) on state intrusion and civil liberties but that is very much a fringe concern: to the extent that they do think about it, most people want more surveillance because it doesn't affect them directly and they think it will help. But it's not jobs, schools, hospitals or pensions.
But you're talking about issues; my point was about party and government management. Davis is temperamentally unsuited to leading a broadly-based government. He is probably well-placed at present and could make a good Home Secretary but PM and party leader? No. Cameron was the right choice at the time.
As opposed to the absolutely well suited temperamentally... Theresa May ?
On twitter many Corbyn supporters genuinely believe that it'll be those on 80k who will 'pay' for all of the things in the manifesto. They've even been mocking those on 35k for not voting Corbyn, saying that they won't be taxed so why are they worried.
Just shows their naivety and stupidity.
We will all pay more tax. A lot more.
If you make £300 a day. £1500 a week. you only get £810 (deductions of student loan/pension included) its about 940-950 without pension/loan)
When I get my p60, its sole destroying to see over a year how much tax and especially national insurance you've paid and you get nothing from it. I don't use the nhs, i'm not unemployed, i don't run a business, I commute to work.
I pay council tax, road tax, health insurance, denplan, have insurance for my cat, pay for my tv, electricity, gas, water, pay for my train to work, pay for my car insurance, pay for home insurance.
I wonder what my taxes are paying for when I get nothing from it. We should have opt out for public services I don't want to pay for people to see their gp for example - OPT OUT.
Ridiculous. That would just mean every time you use it you have to pay a huge amount of back taxes to pay for your treatment.
you let the insurance industry design products that they can profit from and reduce the burden of the taxpayer.
You pay for your dentist to do your teeth and hygiene of your mouth why not the rest of your body.
YouGov is obviously checking back on its panel more frequently now; I have just had the VI yet again. I see that, having been nudging up the last couple of days, its Tory seat projection has today dropped from 318 to 313.
Edit/betting addition: Ilford North has moved from "leaning Labour" to "likely Labour" in the Yougov survey. On Betfair the odds have moved in progressively from 3/1 and are now 5/4. Given the strength of the local Labour ground game and the recent London poll this looks like value.
More likely members of the panel are dropping out from survey fatigue and only a handful of the most politically active are prepared to complete one for them now... and hence the survey is going to be worthless.
'She's like Brown, but without Gordon's social graces and joie de vivre'. LOL!
Brown was wrong about most things but he's an absolute political titan compared to Theresa.
She's taking a hammering today, and rightly so. But if this time next week, she has (as I still think quite possible) a 100+ majority, it'll be funny to read all the testimonials concerning the genius of her campaign.
I doubt anyone will be saying she ran a good campaign because she hasn't.
It's been a poor campaign, but nowhere near as poor as people are saying atm. I reckon her problem has been expectations. The media love stories, and unfortunately for May and the Conservatives, Corbyn being an idiot and Labour's unelectability are not stories that will particularly interest their readers. It's all been said before.
But the Conservatives imploding is a story. It's entropy; it's change, and that means interest.
There's no way the media were going to spend a month running on only 'The Conservatives are going to get a landslide'. There had to be something else, so every misstep they have made has been reported on endlessly.
But yes, the mistakes have been their own. Just a few weeks ago we were talking about the brand being May and not the Conservatives; she should have continued playing to that instead of cowering away from debate.
My main issue is that I still don't know what May stands for. There seems to be an awful lot of waffle and no substance (*). Still, at least she's not Leadsom ...
(*) A bit like my posts.
You have kind of answered your own question there, JJ? You begin by blaming it all on the media and finish by wailing that the Tories haven't told anyone why they deserve our support. Having called the election themselves, don't you think it reasonable that they should have some sort of an answer?
In a snap election called voluntarily by a government that had three more years to run, how can "don't risk voting for the other guy" be any sort of credible message? If he was so dangerous they could have protected us from him for three more years just by staying in office!
"She pointed out that the party’s internal polling at the start of the campaign gave the Tories a 50 seat majority, and argued that the data should have been leaked in order to temper expectations weeks ago."
If it said that then, what does it say now?
That's bull. She'd never have called it for an increase of 19 seats. Too risky.
"She pointed out that the party’s internal polling at the start of the campaign gave the Tories a 50 seat majority, and argued that the data should have been leaked in order to temper expectations weeks ago."
There is an embedded assumption in Labour plans that "the rich" have enough money to pay for everything they can think up. Unfortunately the reality is that the "the rich" aren't anywhere rich enough, and if you take too much of what you do have you find as Hollande did that you pretty quickly run out of rich people.
What's ridiculous is that you are doing a better job of rebutting the preposterous Labour claim of "it's costed" than the Conservative campaign.
Rupert Murdoch endorses May because the tories have scrapped leverson.
Journalists and reporters still have a right to pretend to be relatives at funerals to get a story. The press still have a right to go through your rubbish on a daily basis without consent. The press still have a right to sit outside your house for a prolonged period of time and the police will do nothing about it.
If people didn't buy this trash, the scum wouldn't have work.
I assume you are extending that sentiment to the fascist supporting rag that is the Mirror as well.
'She's like Brown, but without Gordon's social graces and joie de vivre'. LOL!
Brown was wrong about most things but he's an absolute political titan compared to Theresa.
She's taking a hammering today, and rightly so. But if this time next week, she has (as I still think quite possible) a 100+ majority, it'll be funny to read all the testimonials concerning the genius of her campaign.
I doubt anyone will be saying she ran a good campaign because she hasn't.
It's been a poor campaign, but nowhere near as poor as people are saying atm. I reckon her problem has been expectations. The media love stories, and unfortunately for May and the Conservatives, Corbyn being an idiot and Labour's unelectability are not stories that will particularly interest their readers. It's all been said before.
But the Conservatives imploding is a story. It's entropy; it's change, and that means interest.
There's no way the media were going to spend a month running on only 'The Conservatives are going to get a landslide'. There had to be something else, so every misstep they have made has been reported on endlessly.
But yes, the mistakes have been their own. Just a few weeks ago we were talking about the brand being May and not the Conservatives; she should have continued playing to that instead of cowering away from debate.
My main issue is that I still don't know what May stands for. There seems to be an awful lot of waffle and no substance (*). Still, at least she's not Leadsom ...
(*) A bit like my posts.
At least we know now why the snap election was really called, she was expecting to have no majority by the tim ethe crooks were jailed and Brexit talks started
There aren't any "democratically elected politicians" - at least as far as Westminster is concerned - at the moment are there?
Yes but if the case went to trial by jury, the case would collapse as the jury wouldnt be able to make a verdict. Only a judge can make a verdict on this case because of the tory attacks.
The bottom line was this was a conservative plot to do anything at all costs to prevent farage from winning.
That assumes that anyone on the jury will have heard any comment. But yes, no-one should be spouting off on the decision at the moment.
He is entitled to a fair trial and to be presumed innocent. It is not prejudicial to shout from the rooftops that prosecutors have accused a Tory candidate of cheating in the 2015 election, for which if found guilty he will face a jail sentence.
On twitter many Corbyn supporters genuinely believe that it'll be those on 80k who will 'pay' for all of the things in the manifesto. They've even been mocking those on 35k for not voting Corbyn, saying that they won't be taxed so why are they worried.
Just shows their naivety and stupidity.
We will all pay more tax. A lot more.
If you make £300 a day. £1500 a week. you only get £810 (deductions of student loan/pension included) its about 940-950 without pension/loan)
When I get my p60, its sole destroying to see over a year how much tax and especially national insurance you've paid and you get nothing from it. I don't use the nhs, i'm not unemployed, i don't run a business, I commute to work.
I pay council tax, road tax, health insurance, denplan, have insurance for my cat, pay for my tv, electricity, gas, water, pay for my train to work, pay for my car insurance, pay for home insurance.
I wonder what my taxes are paying for when I get nothing from it. We should have opt out for public services I don't want to pay for people to see their gp for example - OPT OUT.
You'll get a pension. Meanwhile you are protected by the Trident missile system. And your local Police.
But his house is clearly fireproof, and his commute to work doesn't involve using any roads.
At work, I've noticed a lot of the green party/non voters from 2015 going to vote for Corbyn this year. Don't worry its a london office so unless you live in tooting, wimbledon, ealing, barnet, hampstead you have nothing to worry about.
corbyn has definitely got the green vote in london.
Helped in Ealing CA, of course, by the fact that there is no Green candidate.
On twitter many Corbyn supporters genuinely believe that it'll be those on 80k who will 'pay' for all of the things in the manifesto. They've even been mocking those on 35k for not voting Corbyn, saying that they won't be taxed so why are they worried.
Just shows their naivety and stupidity.
We will all pay more tax. A lot more.
If you make £300 a day. £1500 a week. you only get £810 (deductions of student loan/pension included) its about 940-950 without pension/loan)
When I get my p60, its sole destroying to see over a year how much tax and especially national insurance you've paid and you get nothing from it. I don't use the nhs, i'm not unemployed, i don't run a business, I commute to work.
I pay council tax, road tax, health insurance, denplan, have insurance for my cat, pay for my tv, electricity, gas, water, pay for my train to work, pay for my car insurance, pay for home insurance.
I wonder what my taxes are paying for when I get nothing from it. We should have opt out for public services I don't want to pay for people to see their gp for example - OPT OUT.
You'll get a pension. Meanwhile you are protected by the Trident missile system. And your local Police.
But his house is clearly fireproof, and his commute to work doesn't involve using any roads.
On twitter many Corbyn supporters genuinely believe that it'll be those on 80k who will 'pay' for all of the things in the manifesto. They've even been mocking those on 35k for not voting Corbyn, saying that they won't be taxed so why are they worried.
Just shows their naivety and stupidity.
We will all pay more tax. A lot more.
If you make £300 a day. £1500 a week. you only get £810 (deductions of student loan/pension included) its about 940-950 without pension/loan)
When I get my p60, its sole destroying to see over a year how much tax and especially national insurance you've paid and you get nothing from it. I don't use the nhs, i'm not unemployed, i don't run a business, I commute to work.
I pay council tax, road tax, health insurance, denplan, have insurance for my cat, pay for my tv, electricity, gas, water, pay for my train to work, pay for my car insurance, pay for home insurance.
I wonder what my taxes are paying for when I get nothing from it. We should have opt out for public services I don't want to pay for people to see their gp for example - OPT OUT.
Ridiculous. That would just mean every time you use it you have to pay a huge amount of back taxes to pay for your treatment.
Rob , don't be a silly Billy , you would take out proper insurance and get better treatment. Completely right.
'She's like Brown, but without Gordon's social graces and joie de vivre'. LOL!
Brown was wrong about most things but he's an absolute political titan compared to Theresa.
She's taking a hammering today, and rightly so. But if this time next week, she has (as I still think quite possible) a 100+ majority, it'll be funny to read all the testimonials concerning the genius of her campaign.
Well unsettling your core support really was crass and it was followed by her hectoring of journalists.
Nevertheless, there is a point about the care of old people in this country which was right to address. Tackling that through people's homes is a cracking piece of Marxist ideology and has horribly backfired.
I still think the Conservatives will win handsomely. The general mood isn't for Corbyn, whatever his acolytes might wish to think.
10% Tory lead I reckon: something like 44 - 34 or 45 - 35.
I have to say I didn't sniff revolution in the air in Asda this morning. .
I trolled one of my colleagues at a departmental meeting (known for his right wing views, Brexiteer etc) who was complaining bout lack of investment by by the NHS Trust. I told him he just needed to wait a week and PM Jezza would find him the money. Much to my surprise he praised Jezza, and all the rest of the meeting nodded enthusiastically, then the conversation moved to Mrs May, and the comments were harsh to put it midly.
In Leicester, at least, the peasants are revolting...
There has been a lot of excitement about a video racking up a lot of views on Facebook. There's another video that's also been racking up a lot of views that hasn't been commented on but I suspect is also having its influence:
On twitter many Corbyn supporters genuinely believe that it'll be those on 80k who will 'pay' for all of the things in the manifesto. They've even been mocking those on 35k for not voting Corbyn, saying that they won't be taxed so why are they worried.
Just shows their naivety and stupidity.
We will all pay more tax. A lot more.
If you make £300 a day. £1500 a week. you only get £810 (deductions of student loan/pension included) its about 940-950 without pension/loan)
When I get my p60, its sole destroying to see over a year how much tax and especially national insurance you've paid and you get nothing from it. I don't use the nhs, i'm not unemployed, i don't run a business, I commute to work.
I pay council tax, road tax, health insurance, denplan, have insurance for my cat, pay for my tv, electricity, gas, water, pay for my train to work, pay for my car insurance, pay for home insurance.
I wonder what my taxes are paying for when I get nothing from it. We should have opt out for public services I don't want to pay for people to see their gp for example - OPT OUT.
You'll get a pension. Meanwhile you are protected by the Trident missile system. And your local Police.
But his house is clearly fireproof, and his commute to work doesn't involve using any roads.
On twitter many Corbyn supporters genuinely believe that it'll be those on 80k who will 'pay' for all of the things in the manifesto. They've even been mocking those on 35k for not voting Corbyn, saying that they won't be taxed so why are they worried.
Just shows their naivety and stupidity.
We will all pay more tax. A lot more.
If you make £300 a day. £1500 a week. you only get £810 (deductions of student loan/pension included) its about 940-950 without pension/loan)
When I get my p60, its sole destroying to see over a year how much tax and especially national insurance you've paid and you get nothing from it. I don't use the nhs, i'm not unemployed, i don't run a business, I commute to work.
I pay council tax, road tax, health insurance, denplan, have insurance for my cat, pay for my tv, electricity, gas, water, pay for my train to work, pay for my car insurance, pay for home insurance.
I wonder what my taxes are paying for when I get nothing from it. We should have opt out for public services I don't want to pay for people to see their gp for example - OPT OUT.
Ridiculous. That would just mean every time you use it you have to pay a huge amount of back taxes to pay for your treatment.
Rob , don't be a silly Billy , you would take out proper insurance and get better treatment. Completely right.
What it would do is leave far less resources to run it, which would be very regressive in terms of the health of the poorest in society.
Rupert Murdoch endorses May because the tories have scrapped leverson.
Journalists and reporters still have a right to pretend to be relatives at funerals to get a story. The press still have a right to go through your rubbish on a daily basis without consent. The press still have a right to sit outside your house for a prolonged period of time and the police will do nothing about it.
If people didn't buy this trash, the scum wouldn't have work.
I assume you are extending that sentiment to the fascist supporting rag that is the Mirror as well.
'She's like Brown, but without Gordon's social graces and joie de vivre'. LOL!
Brown was wrong about most things but he's an absolute political titan compared to Theresa.
She's taking a hammering today, and rightly so. But if this time next week, she has (as I still think quite possible) a 100+ majority, it'll be funny to read all the testimonials concerning the genius of her campaign.
I doubt anyone will be saying she ran a good campaign because she hasn't.
It's been a poor campaign, but nowhere near as poor as people are saying atm. I reckon her problem has been expectations. The media love stories, and unfortunately for May and the Conservatives, Corbyn being an idiot and Labour's unelectability are not stories that will particularly interest their readers. It's all been said before.
But the Conservatives imploding is a story. It's entropy; it's change, and that means interest.
There's no way the media were going to spend a month running on only 'The Conservatives are going to get a landslide'. There had to be something else, so every misstep they have made has been reported on endlessly.
But yes, the mistakes have been their own. Just a few weeks ago we were talking about the brand being May and not the Conservatives; she should have continued playing to that instead of cowering away from debate.
My main issue is that I still don't know what May stands for. There seems to be an awful lot of waffle and no substance (*). Still, at least she's not Leadsom ...
(*) A bit like my posts.
You have kind of answered your own question there, JJ? You begin by blaming it all on the media and finish by wailing that the Tories haven't told anyone why they deserve our support. Having called the election themselves, don't you think it reasonable that they should have some sort of an answer?
In a snap election called voluntarily by a government that had three more years to run, how can "don't risk voting for the other guy" be any sort of credible message? If he was so dangerous they could have protected us from him for three more years just by staying in office!
Agreed, although I'm not sure I'm 'wailing', and I think you miss my main point.
Part of me is quite interested to see how a Corbyn government would turn out. Sadly as I live in the country and have few options to leave, I'll be seeing it from close quarters. But it seems like millions of people want change whatever the consequences.
If anybody here doesn't have enough money Bet365 go 8/13 Labour hold in Rhondda. They polled over 50% in 2015, almost double Plaid in second. UKIP were 3rd and we know how well they're both polling this time round. 37th safest Labour seat in GB. Who's going to take it from them? but DYOR.
You cannot move for the sea of Plaid flags from Tonypandy to Treherbert. The Rhonnda and the Heads of the Valley areas from Merthyr to Ebbw Vales could cause big surprises.
cheers Pete. I like surprises but I hope that isn't one of them.
'She's like Brown, but without Gordon's social graces and joie de vivre'. LOL!
Brown was wrong about most things but he's an absolute political titan compared to Theresa.
She's taking a hammering today, and rightly so. But if this time next week, she has (as I still think quite possible) a 100+ majority, it'll be funny to read all the testimonials concerning the genius of her campaign.
Well unsettling your core support really was crass and it was followed by her hectoring of journalists.
Nevertheless, there is a point about the care of old people in this country which was right to address. Tackling that through people's homes is a cracking piece of Marxist ideology and has horribly backfired.
I still think the Conservatives will win handsomely. The general mood isn't for Corbyn, whatever his acolytes might wish to think.
10% Tory lead I reckon: something like 44 - 34 or 45 - 35.
I have to say I didn't sniff revolution in the air in Asda this morning. .
I trolled one of my colleagues at a departmental meeting (known for his right wing views, Brexiteer etc) who was complaining bout lack of investment by by the NHS Trust. I told him he just needed to wait a week and PM Jezza would find him the money. Much to my surprise he praised Jezza, and all the rest of the meeting nodded enthusiastically, then the conversation moved to Mrs May, and the comments were harsh to put it midly.
In Leicester, at least, the peasants are revolting...
Am hoping, at least, that the lovely Liz keeps her seat.
"She pointed out that the party’s internal polling at the start of the campaign gave the Tories a 50 seat majority, and argued that the data should have been leaked in order to temper expectations weeks ago."
If it said that then, what does it say now?
That's bull. She'd never have called it for an increase of 19 seats. Too risky.
Whilst I am sure it is bull that Tory internal polling put it as low as a 50 seat majority, a bigger majority isn't the ONLY benefit to May.
At least as important is getting a personal mandate rather than piggy-backing on Cameron's for four years. Any majority she gets is HER majority, and (she will argue) justifies her Brexit on her terms. Her governance style is small groups of close loyalists, not building consensus, and that isn't consistent with using somebody else's majority. It is also a reason for the Tory campaign being Presidential (to start with, until it fell apart).
Of course, the trouble is that the awful expectations game now means a smallish majority is a defeat for her, and fatally undermines her in coming years.
On twitter many Corbyn supporters genuinely believe that it'll be those on 80k who will 'pay' for all of the things in the manifesto. They've even been mocking those on 35k for not voting Corbyn, saying that they won't be taxed so why are they worried.
I worked out the other day that 3% of taxpayers, about 900,000 individuals, are on £80k or more and that on average they're on £42k more. I went on to estimate that if you expropriated every penny over £80k, it would raise only £38 billion.
In fact I erred there, because of course the £38 billion is before tax. But those people already pay tax on those > £80k earnings. Someone on £122k pays £48k in tax, which is £22k more than someone on £80k. So of their extra £42k, they already give up more than half.
So incrementally you could in fact only take what's left. That would be about £18 billion. Except it wouldn't, because if you took all of people's earnings above £80k, all salaries will be reduced to £80k. So what you could actually take from people on over £80k would sum to somewhere south of £18 billion, and probably a long way south.
There is an embedded assumption in Labour plans that "the rich" have enough money to pay for everything they can think up. Unfortunately the reality is that the "the rich" aren't anywhere rich enough, and if you take too much of what you do have you find as Hollande did that you pretty quickly run out of rich people.
Good to see someone else conversant with the observations of Arthur Laffer, which Hollande belatedly realised when he tried to tax 'the rich'. The result was tens of thousands of French millionaires moving abroad - many of them thankfully for us to the UK. The converse was seen in the past few years where corporation tax cuts have resulted in higher revenues, as companies move or expand in the UK in preference to other jurisdictions.
If you're a rare skilled individual or a large international company, you have more choice then ever of where to domicile yourself, and governments need to tread a very fine line between extracting taxes and driving people to avoid them. Corbyn and his mob would crash the upper end of the tax base almost overnight, his doubling of corporation tax would be losing tax revenue by about year 2.
I'm getting nervous about this Question Time thing tonight. What if - in some kind of bizarre parody of Nixon and Kennedy - Theresa is all stuttering, sweaty and nervous and Jezza pulls off all the likeable panache of a (somewhat ageing) JFK?
'She's like Brown, but without Gordon's social graces and joie de vivre'. LOL!
Brown was wrong about most things but he's an absolute political titan compared to Theresa.
She's taking a hammering today, and rightly so. But if this time next week, she has (as I still think quite possible) a 100+ majority, it'll be funny to read all the testimonials concerning the genius of her campaign.
Well unsettling your core support really was crass and it was followed by her hectoring of journalists.
Nevertheless, there is a point about the care of old people in this country which was right to address. Tackling that through people's homes is a cracking piece of Marxist ideology and has horribly backfired.
I still think the Conservatives will win handsomely. The general mood isn't for Corbyn, whatever his acolytes might wish to think.
10% Tory lead I reckon: something like 44 - 34 or 45 - 35.
I have to say I didn't sniff revolution in the air in Asda this morning. .
I trolled one of my colleagues at a departmental meeting (known for his right wing views, Brexiteer etc) who was complaining bout lack of investment by by the NHS Trust. I told him he just needed to wait a week and PM Jezza would find him the money. Much to my surprise he praised Jezza, and all the rest of the meeting nodded enthusiastically, then the conversation moved to Mrs May, and the comments were harsh to put it midly.
In Leicester, at least, the peasants are revolting...
Am hoping at least, that the lovely Liz keeps her seat.
Nailed on, Liz loves canvassing. She is a people person.
On twitter many Corbyn supporters genuinely believe that it'll be those on 80k who will 'pay' for all of the things in the manifesto. They've even been mocking those on 35k for not voting Corbyn, saying that they won't be taxed so why are they worried.
Just shows their naivety and stupidity.
We will all pay more tax. A lot more.
If you make £300 a day. £1500 a week. you only get £810 (deductions of student loan/pension included) its about 940-950 without pension/loan)
When I get my p60, its sole destroying to see over a year how much tax and especially national insurance you've paid and you get nothing from it. I don't use the nhs, i'm not unemployed, i don't run a business, I commute to work.
I pay council tax, road tax, health insurance, denplan, have insurance for my cat, pay for my tv, electricity, gas, water, pay for my train to work, pay for my car insurance, pay for home insurance.
I wonder what my taxes are paying for when I get nothing from it. We should have opt out for public services I don't want to pay for people to see their gp for example - OPT OUT.
You think road tax covers roads? Even nearly? Or that Council Tax covers all council services used? You get to live in a society where you are protected by so many structures of law that it's incredible. Where you are defended from any aggressors. Where all the services you pay for only happen because those providing them have had education provided, where health and social care exist, where we don't abandon them to death.
Where infrastructure paid for by someone else exists for you. Where social constructs depending on what you say you don't use have existed. Where your university education, despite the contribution you are making, was heavily subsidised by other taxpayers (your student loan and fees didn't cover all that, not by a long chalk).
Where entrepreneurs can take risks because there's a safety net. Where you yourself could benefit from an education. And one day you WILL need the NHS or social care, unless you manage to opt out of ageing. And I bet you'll be expecting an old age pension in the fullness of time.
You can escape all of these impositions. Just go to an abandoned island in the middle of the Pacific. No need to support anyone else.
That's the only way you can opt out. You can't hand back your degree to pay off the subsidy you got or the convenience of the arrangement to pay your chunk afterwards. Or your primary or secondary education. Or the law. Or the healthcare that supports the web of people, services and interactions you depend on day by day.
YouGov is obviously checking back on its panel more frequently now; I have just had the VI yet again. I see that, having been nudging up the last couple of days, its Tory seat projection has today dropped from 318 to 313.
Edit/betting addition: Ilford North has moved from "leaning Labour" to "likely Labour" in the Yougov survey. On Betfair the odds have moved in progressively from 3/1 and are now 5/4. Given the strength of the local Labour ground game and the recent London poll this looks like value.
More likely members of the panel are dropping out from survey fatigue and only a handful of the most politically active are prepared to complete one for them now... and hence the survey is going to be worthless.
Well from the huge diversity of polling results observed in the past fortnight, someone is going to need a lot of egg to cover their face this time next week!
I'm still touting my sell of Plaid Cymru on Sporting Index at 3.6. They look more likely to lose seats than gain them - Lord Ashcroft (and the Welsh YouGov poll) both suggest they'll be wiped out.
I've had to sign up to join the "fun" - I'm not getting much work done due to my overwhelming feeling of dread. Is there any evidence for a holiday period effect on polling? This week had a bank holiday and is half term.
I've had to sign up to join the "fun" - I'm not getting much work done due to my overwhelming feeling of dread. Is there any evidence for a holiday period effect on polling? This week had a bank holiday and is half term.
I'm getting nervous about this Question Time thing tonight. What if - in some kind of bizarre parody of Nixon and Kennedy - Theresa is all stuttering, sweaty and nervous and Jezza pulls off all the likeable panache of a (somewhat ageing) JFK?
It's not Nixon vs JFK; it's Hillary vs Bernie.
It's Dick v Dom, Barry Chuckle v Paul Chuckle, Hartlepool United v Newport County, all rolled into one.
You do have to wonder at what point the public at large realise that a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott government are just a tick away and that that tick moves decisively to conservative.
Are we really going to elect a marxist socialist government under the power of the trade unions.
Re labour and their 10,000 police Abbott confirmed today that they will not be in place before the end of the Parliament. Wonder how many expect them on the streets next week
'She's like Brown, but without Gordon's social graces and joie de vivre'. LOL!
Brown was wrong about most things but he's an absolute political titan compared to Theresa.
She's taking a hammering today, and rightly so. But if this time next week, she has (as I still think quite possible) a 100+ majority, it'll be funny to read all the testimonials concerning the genius of her campaign.
Well unsettling your core support really was crass and it was followed by her hectoring of journalists.
Nevertheless, there is a point about the care of old people in this country which was right to address. Tackling that through people's homes is a cracking piece of Marxist ideology and has horribly backfired.
I still think the Conservatives will win handsomely. The general mood isn't for Corbyn, whatever his acolytes might wish to think.
10% Tory lead I reckon: something like 44 - 34 or 45 - 35.
I have to say I didn't sniff revolution in the air in Asda this morning. .
I trolled one of my colleagues at a departmental meeting (known for his right wing views, Brexiteer etc) who was complaining bout lack of investment by by the NHS Trust. I told him he just needed to wait a week and PM Jezza would find him the money. Much to my surprise he praised Jezza, and all the rest of the meeting nodded enthusiastically, then the conversation moved to Mrs May, and the comments were harsh to put it midly.
In Leicester, at least, the peasants are revolting...
Am hoping at least, that the lovely Liz keeps her seat.
Nailed on, Liz loves canvassing. She is a people person.
Mr. Meeks, don't have an account with them, but if I did I'd back that Sporting Index/laid tip.
Mr. Sandpit, yet the media narrative is all about the worst. I hope YouGov's daily polling doesn't just lead to them getting more coverage and influencing news rather than reflecting views [this isn't party political. It could help the Conservatives as reluctant voters who really dislike Corbyn are likelier to turn out if they think the race is close].
Rupert Murdoch endorses May because the tories have scrapped leverson.
Journalists and reporters still have a right to pretend to be relatives at funerals to get a story. The press still have a right to go through your rubbish on a daily basis without consent. The press still have a right to sit outside your house for a prolonged period of time and the police will do nothing about it.
If people didn't buy this trash, the scum wouldn't have work.
I assume you are extending that sentiment to the fascist supporting rag that is the Mirror as well.
All newspapers.
Well it's a view I suppose bit not one that will prove very popular.. I presume you would prefer the French system where the politicians can be as corrupt as they like because the media can't report any of it.
Neil Dawson Labour candidate for Morley and Outwood
Dear Neil
Thank you for your leaflet presenting yourself as my "truly local candidate". I was interested to read about 'your pledge to me' to "fight to help young people get jobs".
Imagine my disappointment when I noticed you had chosen to have your leaflets printed in Kettering. Neither your "fight" nor your self-professed localism extends to supporting local employers, did it?
Your principal opponent, Andrea Jenkyns, got her leaflets printed in Queen's Road, Morley. Isn't she right when she tells me that she is my "strong local voice for Morley and Outwood? At least she puts her money where her mouth is.
None of this will affect the result. I'm voting for Dr Craig Dobson. He's not claiming any local credentials but at least he is honest. He uses a printer in Leeds.
Mr. Meeks, don't have an account with them, but if I did I'd back that Sporting Index/laid tip.
Mr. Sandpit, yet the media narrative is all about the worst. I hope YouGov's daily polling doesn't just lead to them getting more coverage and influencing news rather than reflecting views [this isn't party political. It could help the Conservatives as reluctant voters who really dislike Corbyn are likelier to turn out if they think the race is close].
Agreed, I think the polls are mad, but am too far away and have been too busy his week to follow closely. The feeling I get is the polls and the media narrative driving each other, which if nothing else should get the turnout up. I can't see all the students turning out though, many will be registered twice and many more not at all. My heart says something like 45-32 at the moment, which is between 1983 and a reverse 1997 in terms of outcome.
There has been a lot of excitement about a video racking up a lot of views on Facebook. There's another video that's also been racking up a lot of views that hasn't been commented on but I suspect is also having its influence:
On twitter many Corbyn supporters genuinely believe that it'll be those on 80k who will 'pay' for all of the things in the manifesto. They've even been mocking those on 35k for not voting Corbyn, saying that they won't be taxed so why are they worried.
We will all pay more tax. A lot more.
I get my p60, its sole destroying to see over a year how much tax and especially national insurance you've paid and you get nothing from it. I don't use the nhs, i'm not unemployed, i don't run a business, I commute to work.
I pay council tax, road tax, health insurance, denplan, have insurance for my cat, pay for my tv, electricity, gas, water, pay for my train to work, pay for my car insurance, pay for home insurance.
I wonder what my taxes are paying for when I get nothing from it. We should have opt out for public services I don't want to pay for people to see their gp for example - OPT OUT.
You think road tax covers roads? Even nearly? Or that Council Tax covers all council services used? You get to live in a society where you are protected by so many structures of law that it's incredible. Where you are defended from any aggressors. Where all the services you pay for only happen because those providing them have had education provided, where health and social care exist, where we don't abandon them to death.
Where infrastructure paid for by someone else exists for you. Where social constructs depending on what you say you don't use have existed. Where your university education, despite the contribution you are making, was heavily subsidised by other taxpayers (your student loan and fees didn't cover all that, not by a long chalk).
Where entrepreneurs can take risks because there's a safety net. Where you yourself could benefit from an education. And one day you WILL need the NHS or social care, unless you manage to opt out of ageing. And I bet you'll be expecting an old age pension in the fullness of time.
You can escape all of these impositions. Just go to an abandoned island in the middle of the Pacific. No need to support anyone else.
That's the only way you can opt out. You can't hand back your degree to pay off the subsidy you got or the convenience of the arrangement to pay your chunk afterwards. Or your primary or secondary education. Or the law. Or the healthcare that supports the web of people, services and interactions you depend on day by day.
His ignorance was self evident from his earlier post.
His good fortune is to live in a country where its politicians, of all colours, are so skilled at dreaming up ingenious ways of having things now but shunting the bill off into the future.
@TheScreamingEagles Ben Page is saying on twitter that May is 15, not 4 points ahead of Corbyn.
Leads like that may well be her saving grace come June 8th.
That's best PM ratings.
I'm talking about leader ratings.
Jim Callaghan led Margaret Thatcher on the best PM ratings in 1979.
People tend to forget this! The Tories won despite the Iron Lady in '79, not because of her.
Of course, there is an extent to which this reflected Sunny Jim being a nice fellow, plus a slice of low level sexism (Thatcher didn't "look" like a PM).
Comments
always used to remind me of Brown...
The narrative was NOM was value at 1.1 and Leave were fucked. Remainers used to post the Leave price every time it drifted as a troll!
People accepted these narratives and managed to save face by reacting to the exit poll and using @AndyJS spreadsheet
Why would it be different this time?
When I get my p60, its sole destroying to see over a year how much tax and especially national insurance you've paid and you get nothing from it. I don't use the nhs, i'm not unemployed, i don't run a business, I commute to work.
I pay council tax, road tax, health insurance, denplan, have insurance for my cat, pay for my tv, electricity, gas, water, pay for my train to work, pay for my car insurance, pay for home insurance.
I wonder what my taxes are paying for when I get nothing from it. We should have opt out for public services
In fact I erred there, because of course the £38 billion is before tax. But those people already pay tax on those > £80k earnings. Someone on £122k pays £48k in tax, which is £22k more than someone on £80k. So of their extra £42k, they already give up more than half.
So incrementally you could in fact only take what's left. That would be about £18 billion. Except it wouldn't, because if you took all of people's earnings above £80k, all salaries will be reduced to £80k. So what you could actually take from people on over £80k would sum to somewhere south of £18 billion, and probably a long way south.
There is an embedded assumption in Labour plans that "the rich" have enough money to pay for everything they can think up. Unfortunately the reality is that the "the rich" aren't anywhere rich enough, and if you take too much of what you do have you find as Hollande did that you pretty quickly run out of rich people.
I'll give her the benefit of the doubt one more time (and potentially ruin a Friday evening) by watching her tonight on QT. I want to hear some authenticity and some proper answers. If not.. I'll get really angry and continue slagging her off on here.
Look at the supplementaries
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/05/22/perhaps-leave-really-are-going-to-win-this-referendum/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-katie-perrior-ex-communication-uk-prime-minister-social-care-u-turn-dementia-tax-a7766406.html
If it said that then, what does it say now?
corbyn has definitely got the green vote in london.
You really have gone native!
You pay for your dentist to do your teeth and hygiene of your mouth why not the rest of your body.
In a snap election called voluntarily by a government that had three more years to run, how can "don't risk voting for the other guy" be any sort of credible message? If he was so dangerous they could have protected us from him for three more years just by staying in office!
My decision to invest in incontinence pants is really paying off
Didn't Kantar show a small rise to 10 points yesterday (Con lead)?
I'm voting LD!
In Leicester, at least, the peasants are revolting...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxN1STgQXW8
Part of me is quite interested to see how a Corbyn government would turn out. Sadly as I live in the country and have few options to leave, I'll be seeing it from close quarters. But it seems like millions of people want change whatever the consequences.
At least as important is getting a personal mandate rather than piggy-backing on Cameron's for four years. Any majority she gets is HER majority, and (she will argue) justifies her Brexit on her terms. Her governance style is small groups of close loyalists, not building consensus, and that isn't consistent with using somebody else's majority. It is also a reason for the Tory campaign being Presidential (to start with, until it fell apart).
Of course, the trouble is that the awful expectations game now means a smallish majority is a defeat for her, and fatally undermines her in coming years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7eqTm2YZhY
https://dashboards.lordashcroftpolls.com/Storyboard/RHViewStoryBoard.aspx?RId=²&RLId=²&PId=±´ºµ´&UId=´¹¹¹¼&RpId=2
If you're a rare skilled individual or a large international company, you have more choice then ever of where to domicile yourself, and governments need to tread a very fine line between extracting taxes and driving people to avoid them. Corbyn and his mob would crash the upper end of the tax base almost overnight, his doubling of corporation tax would be losing tax revenue by about year 2.
Or that Council Tax covers all council services used?
You get to live in a society where you are protected by so many structures of law that it's incredible. Where you are defended from any aggressors. Where all the services you pay for only happen because those providing them have had education provided, where health and social care exist, where we don't abandon them to death.
Where infrastructure paid for by someone else exists for you. Where social constructs depending on what you say you don't use have existed. Where your university education, despite the contribution you are making, was heavily subsidised by other taxpayers (your student loan and fees didn't cover all that, not by a long chalk).
Where entrepreneurs can take risks because there's a safety net. Where you yourself could benefit from an education. And one day you WILL need the NHS or social care, unless you manage to opt out of ageing.
And I bet you'll be expecting an old age pension in the fullness of time.
You can escape all of these impositions. Just go to an abandoned island in the middle of the Pacific. No need to support anyone else.
That's the only way you can opt out. You can't hand back your degree to pay off the subsidy you got or the convenience of the arrangement to pay your chunk afterwards. Or your primary or secondary education. Or the law. Or the healthcare that supports the web of people, services and interactions you depend on day by day.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/01/myths-money-british-voters-economy-britain-welfare?CMP=share_btn_fb
I suspect any effect is small/very small.
Leads like that may well be her saving grace come June 8th.
Are we really going to elect a marxist socialist government under the power of the trade unions.
Re labour and their 10,000 police Abbott confirmed today that they will not be in place before the end of the Parliament. Wonder how many expect them on the streets next week
Mr. Sandpit, yet the media narrative is all about the worst. I hope YouGov's daily polling doesn't just lead to them getting more coverage and influencing news rather than reflecting views [this isn't party political. It could help the Conservatives as reluctant voters who really dislike Corbyn are likelier to turn out if they think the race is close].
I'm talking about leader ratings.
Jim Callaghan led Margaret Thatcher on the best PM ratings in 1979.
ON satisfaction ratings, she is only 4% clear.
Labour candidate for Morley and Outwood
Dear Neil
Thank you for your leaflet presenting yourself as my "truly local candidate". I was interested to read about 'your pledge to me' to "fight to help young people get jobs".
Imagine my disappointment when I noticed you had chosen to have your leaflets printed in Kettering. Neither your "fight" nor your self-professed localism extends to supporting local employers, did it?
Your principal opponent, Andrea Jenkyns, got her leaflets printed in Queen's Road, Morley. Isn't she right when she tells me that she is my "strong local voice for Morley and Outwood? At least she puts her money where her mouth is.
None of this will affect the result. I'm voting for Dr Craig Dobson. He's not claiming any local credentials but at least he is honest. He uses a printer in Leeds.
Kind regards
Trevor. C. Amel
Mr. NorthWales, it's deeply troubling. We could have an IRA sympathiser in Number Ten this time next week.
His good fortune is to live in a country where its politicians, of all colours, are so skilled at dreaming up ingenious ways of having things now but shunting the bill off into the future.
Of course, there is an extent to which this reflected Sunny Jim being a nice fellow, plus a slice of low level sexism (Thatcher didn't "look" like a PM).
Just not sure anymore.
May: HOLD the line.