All the Tories need to do to restart campaigning is to have a poster with pictures of May and Corbyn and a caption "Which one makes you most secure?"
Followed up with some choice quotes from McDonnell and Abbot.
Then sit back for a fortnight.
I'm not sure the Tories will go for that now, but they don't really need to. The Sun and the Mail will do it for them.
I reckon by the end of the campaign, every single person eligible to vote will know, in detail, everything Corbyn, Abbott & McDonnell ever said and did.
And their judgement will be severe.
I thought you were joking until I searched for it! McDonnell seems to have form of saying something/supporting it and then later when asked about it claiming he did no such thing. I mean the man is recorded on video saying these controversial views and still denies it. He is a liar. The public needs to be made aware of this as I had no idea.
Completely agree with the thread header, I said yesterday morning I wanted to see what May and Corbyn are like in a crisis. As it stands I'm very disappointed with both.
What have they failed to do? I am asking just out of interest.
Completely agree with the thread header, I said yesterday morning I wanted to see what May and Corbyn are like in a crisis. As it stands I'm very disappointed with both.
What have they failed to do? I am asking just out of interest.
Unless I've missed something both have failed to tell us what they will do to prevent further attacks. As distressing as it all is it comes as no surprise but it seems neither has a clue how to respond.
Completely agree with the thread header, I said yesterday morning I wanted to see what May and Corbyn are like in a crisis. As it stands I'm very disappointed with both.
What have they failed to do? I am asking just out of interest.
Unless I've missed something both have failed to tell us what they will do to prevent further attacks. As distressing as it all is it comes as no surprise but it seems neither has a clue how to respond.
Completely agree with the thread header, I said yesterday morning I wanted to see what May and Corbyn are like in a crisis. As it stands I'm very disappointed with both.
What have they failed to do? I am asking just out of interest.
Unless I've missed something both have failed to tell us what they will do to prevent further attacks. As distressing as it all is it comes as no surprise but it seems neither has a clue how to respond.
What do you think they should do?
I think they should tell us what they will do to prevent further attacks. One of them will be PM in a matter of weeks, unless I've missed something they're both hiding.
Completely agree with the thread header, I said yesterday morning I wanted to see what May and Corbyn are like in a crisis. As it stands I'm very disappointed with both.
What have they failed to do? I am asking just out of interest.
Unless I've missed something both have failed to tell us what they will do to prevent further attacks. As distressing as it all is it comes as no surprise but it seems neither has a clue how to respond.
What do you think they should do?
I think they should tell us what they will do to prevent further attacks. One of them will be PM in a matter of weeks, unless I've missed something they're both hiding.
Theresa May’s Police Cuts Exposed By Manchester Bombing Army Deployment - Police Federation After 20,000 jobs lost, ‘we simply do not have the resources’
Some 20,000 police jobs have been cut since the Conservatives came to power in 2010 and budgets slashed by around 4% every year when May was Home Secretary.
Completely agree with the thread header, I said yesterday morning I wanted to see what May and Corbyn are like in a crisis. As it stands I'm very disappointed with both.
What have they failed to do? I am asking just out of interest.
Unless I've missed something both have failed to tell us what they will do to prevent further attacks. As distressing as it all is it comes as no surprise but it seems neither has a clue how to respond.
What do you think they should do?
I think they should tell us what they will do to prevent further attacks. One of them will be PM in a matter of weeks, unless I've missed something they're both hiding.
If you say how you will prevent attacks, you tell the terrorists some ways in which they would otherwise have been stopped.
Careless Talk costs lives and stating what is being done is careless talk...
I'm not sure the Tories will go for that now, but they don't really need to. The Sun and the Mail will do it for them.
I reckon by the end of the campaign, every single person eligible to vote will know, in detail, everything Corbyn, Abbott & McDonnell ever said and did.
All the Tories need to do to restart campaigning is to have a poster with pictures of May and Corbyn and a caption "Which one makes you most secure?"
Followed up with some choice quotes from McDonnell and Abbot.
Then sit back for a fortnight.
I'm not sure the Tories will go for that now, but they don't really need to. The Sun and the Mail will do it for them.
I reckon by the end of the campaign, every single person eligible to vote will know, in detail, everything Corbyn, Abbott & McDonnell ever said and did.
And their judgement will be severe.
The Sun and the Mail doing it for them is the story of British political discourse.
Ideal time for Labour to respond to Mail with the 'Adolf Hitler's favourite British newspaper' jibe.
Some 20,000 police jobs have been cut since the Conservatives came to power in 2010 and budgets slashed by around 4% every year when May was Home Secretary.
It's almost as if the previous Government spent more money than they should have done...
The council writes... "Dear [me]. I'm writing to let you know that your recent application to be added to the electoral register has been successful. You will be added to the Register on 1 June 2017 unless there is an election before that date"
Theresa May’s Police Cuts Exposed By Manchester Bombing Army Deployment - Police Federation After 20,000 jobs lost, ‘we simply do not have the resources’
Completely agree with the thread header, I said yesterday morning I wanted to see what May and Corbyn are like in a crisis. As it stands I'm very disappointed with both.
What have they failed to do? I am asking just out of interest.
Unless I've missed something both have failed to tell us what they will do to prevent further attacks. As distressing as it all is it comes as no surprise but it seems neither has a clue how to respond.
What do you think they should do?
I think they should tell us what they will do to prevent further attacks. One of them will be PM in a matter of weeks, unless I've missed something they're both hiding.
If you say how you will prevent attacks, you tell the terrorists some ways in which they would otherwise have been stopped.
Careless Talk costs lives and stating what is being done is careless talk...
Good point, lets just throw our hands in the air.
Meanwhile the electorate wants to know how we can stop nutters murdering our children and who would be the best person to run the country right now.
Some 20,000 police jobs have been cut since the Conservatives came to power in 2010 and budgets slashed by around 4% every year when May was Home Secretary.
Theresa May’s Police Cuts Exposed By Manchester Bombing Army Deployment - Police Federation After 20,000 jobs lost, ‘we simply do not have the resources’
The police federation are talking through their arse. 20 000 extra police wouldn't change where we are one iota right now.
1. Most high value target watch isn't done by the cops, its done by MI5
2. There haven't been any significant cuts in Islamic extremist terror policing
3. We require skilled armed people on the street and a 20 year old squaddie probably has more experience of wielding a full calibre weapon than most of those in the supposed 20 000 lost jobs.
The threat is clear. Evidence has led to a deduction that more than one bomb may have been built but, if there is they haven't found them. This is why they are on the street. If you had 20 000 cops extra, the army would still be on the street.
Theresa May’s Police Cuts Exposed By Manchester Bombing Army Deployment - Police Federation After 20,000 jobs lost, ‘we simply do not have the resources’
Completely agree with the thread header, I said yesterday morning I wanted to see what May and Corbyn are like in a crisis. As it stands I'm very disappointed with both.
What have they failed to do? I am asking just out of interest.
Unless I've missed something both have failed to tell us what they will do to prevent further attacks. As distressing as it all is it comes as no surprise but it seems neither has a clue how to respond.
What do you think they should do?
I think they should tell us what they will do to prevent further attacks. One of them will be PM in a matter of weeks, unless I've missed something they're both hiding.
If you say how you will prevent attacks, you tell the terrorists some ways in which they would otherwise have been stopped.
Careless Talk costs lives and stating what is being done is careless talk...
Good point, lets just throw our hands in the air.
Meanwhile the electorate wants to know how we can stop nutters murdering our children and who would be the best person to run the country right now.
Neither, is my conclusion.
How do you prevent attacks? Surveillance, intelligence, and the use of informants. The security forces have been pretty good at preventing attacks.
Completely agree with the thread header, I said yesterday morning I wanted to see what May and Corbyn are like in a crisis. As it stands I'm very disappointed with both.
What have they failed to do? I am asking just out of interest.
Unless I've missed something both have failed to tell us what they will do to prevent further attacks. As distressing as it all is it comes as no surprise but it seems neither has a clue how to respond.
What do you think they should do?
I think they should tell us what they will do to prevent further attacks. One of them will be PM in a matter of weeks, unless I've missed something they're both hiding.
If you say how you will prevent attacks, you tell the terrorists some ways in which they would otherwise have been stopped.
Careless Talk costs lives and stating what is being done is careless talk...
Good point, lets just throw our hands in the air.
Meanwhile the electorate wants to know how we can stop nutters murdering our children and who would be the best person to run the country right now.
Neither, is my conclusion.
Well you're free to choose whoever is standing in your constituency. And if you don't think they're good enough stump up £500, and run yourself.
Just as a note. The UK authorities are far from convinced by the direct IS link at the moment, which may give one reason why Abedi was not homed in on to a higher level.
Actually The Daily Mirror was Hitler's favourite paper, and well they are now supporting Corbyn, coincidence? I think not.
What is less well known......The Daily Mirror was just as pro-fascist. On Monday, 22 January, 1934 the Mirror ran the headline "Give the Blackshirts a helping hand". The paper went one further than the Mail, urging readers to join Mosley's British Union of Fascists, and giving the address to which to send membership applications.
"As a purely British organisation, the Blackshirts will respect those principles of tolerance which are traditional in British politics," the Mirror told readers, complaining that "timid alarmists" had "been whimpering that the rapid growth in numbers of the British Blackshirts is preparing the way for a system of rulership by means of steel whips and concentration camps".
Some 20,000 police jobs have been cut since the Conservatives came to power in 2010 and budgets slashed by around 4% every year when May was Home Secretary.
How many of that 20,000 were beat coppers?
Even if they were, beat coppers have very little to do counter-terrorism.
Crime rates have dropped sharply over the past decade, hence the reduction in police numbers.
RobD thanks for the reply on the previous thread - appreciated.
I'm wondering why it (2nd pref to fptp) is in the manifesto. It raises issues on voting systems which will be debated again and which for the time being were completely dead and for types of elections where it is pretty impossible to put up an argument for fptp.
Just asking for trouble where none was present.
Yes, I was quite surprised it was included. Perhaps the view is that all elections should be conducted using the same voting system?
Reply to Philip as well who made the same point as Rob:
But it won't will it. We will still have STV and Constituencies with top ups (although neither in England). Guess we have got rid of lists by default.
I have to say (personal view point) that the experiment with these systems seemed designed to fail by bringing in the worst possible types. 2nd preference seemed to be have a go at PR and then change your mind after the first round and resort to fptp, which to me seems odd and lists are just awful for so many reasons.
Until recently since Labour started meddling with different voting systems we've had FPTP (historical, Westminster), PR (European Parliament) and Secondary Vote (Mayors), with a rejected referendum to change to AV. People are getting in the habit of having different voting systems. Voting systems is not just the preserve of cranks but instead discussed every time one of those votes happens.
In England at least PR is set to be abolished by removing the European Parliament elections, now Secondary Vote is being abolished. The only habitual voting system that about 90% of the UK will have is FPTP. Voting systems is going to be a discussion for eccentrics and the minor nations.
Completely agree with the thread header, I said yesterday morning I wanted to see what May and Corbyn are like in a crisis. As it stands I'm very disappointed with both.
What have they failed to do? I am asking just out of interest.
Unless I've missed something both have failed to tell us what they will do to prevent further attacks. As distressing as it all is it comes as no surprise but it seems neither has a clue how to respond.
What do you think they should do?
I think they should tell us what they will do to prevent further attacks. One of them will be PM in a matter of weeks, unless I've missed something they're both hiding.
If you say how you will prevent attacks, you tell the terrorists some ways in which they would otherwise have been stopped.
Careless Talk costs lives and stating what is being done is careless talk...
Good point, lets just throw our hands in the air.
Meanwhile the electorate wants to know how we can stop nutters murdering our children and who would be the best person to run the country right now.
Neither, is my conclusion.
Well you're free to choose whoever is standing in your constituency. And if you don't think they're good enough stump up £500, and run yourself.
RobD thanks for the reply on the previous thread - appreciated.
I'm wondering why it (2nd pref to fptp) is in the manifesto. It raises issues on voting systems which will be debated again and which for the time being were completely dead and for types of elections where it is pretty impossible to put up an argument for fptp.
Just asking for trouble where none was present.
Yes, I was quite surprised it was included. Perhaps the view is that all elections should be conducted using the same voting system?
Reply to Philip as well who made the same point as Rob:
But it won't will it. We will still have STV and Constituencies with top ups (although neither in England). Guess we have got rid of lists by default.
I have to say (personal view point) that the experiment with these systems seemed designed to fail by bringing in the worst possible types. 2nd preference seemed to be have a go at PR and then change your mind after the first round and resort to fptp, which to me seems odd and lists are just awful for so many reasons.
Until recently since Labour started meddling with different voting systems we've had FPTP (historical, Westminster), PR (European Parliament) and Secondary Vote (Mayors), with a rejected referendum to change to AV. People are getting in the habit of having different voting systems. Voting systems is not just the preserve of cranks but instead discussed every time one of those votes happens.
In England at least PR is set to be abolished by removing the European Parliament elections, now Secondary Vote is being abolished. The only habitual voting system that about 90% of the UK will have is FPTP. Voting systems is going to be a discussion for eccentrics and the minor nations.
Northern Ireland has had STV for local elections for a very long time. Possibly from its creation or very soon after, although ICBW on that.
Ideal time for Labour to respond to Mail with the 'Adolf Hitler's favourite British newspaper' jibe.
Sure, because why wouldn't they want the Mail to come back with the response that that is so twattish, even the Guardian realises it is twattish, and btw and while we've got you in the studio, are there any issues on which large numbers of Labour party members would have seen eye to eye with good old Adolf?
Theresa May’s Police Cuts Exposed By Manchester Bombing Army Deployment - Police Federation After 20,000 jobs lost, ‘we simply do not have the resources’
Vote Labour & shut us down completely?
What are you talking about
One of two options may not seem a very good choice. It doesn't necessarily follow that the second option is a better choice; it could be even worse.
In the middle of a GE campaign, a statement like that from a union like the Police Federation is not simply putting pressure on Mrs May to increase police funding. It is offering the cuts as a reason not to vote for her party.
It follows therefore that the Police Federation would prefer Ms Abbott as Home Secretary: a lady who has said she wants the British state to be defeated.
Ideal time for Labour to respond to Mail with the 'Adolf Hitler's favourite British newspaper' jibe.
Sure, because why wouldn't they want the Mail to come back with the response that that is so twattish, even the Guardian realises it is twattish, and btw and while we've got you in the studio, are there any issues on which large numbers of Labour party members would have seen eye to eye with good old Adolf?
Ideal time for Labour to respond to Mail with the 'Adolf Hitler's favourite British newspaper' jibe.
Sure, because why wouldn't they want the Mail to come back with the response that that is so twattish, even the Guardian realises it is twattish, and btw and while we've got you in the studio, are there any issues on which large numbers of Labour party members would have seen eye to eye with good old Adolf?
I am sure the Mail would be delighted to be labelled as a non-mainstream newspaper of the Extreme Right - fairly close to the Volkischer Beobachter though perhaps slightly to the left of Der Sturmer.
Also applies to Army,RN,RAF,NHS, Border Service, Fire Service
All while threat was severe
When funding was much higher we had the London tube bombings, and when would chucking money at the armed forces have stopped terrorism? Counter terrorism is concentrated on the intelligence services, the police are just there for the raids.
RobD thanks for the reply on the previous thread - appreciated.
I'm wondering why it (2nd pref to fptp) is in the manifesto. It raises issues on voting systems which will be debated again and which for the time being were completely dead and for types of elections where it is pretty impossible to put up an argument for fptp.
Just asking for trouble where none was present.
Yes, I was quite surprised it was included. Perhaps the view is that all elections should be conducted using the same voting system?
Reply to Philip as well who made the same point as Rob:
But it won't will it. We will still have STV and Constituencies with top ups (although neither in England). Guess we have got rid of lists by default.
I have to say (personal view point) that the experiment with these systems seemed designed to fail by bringing in the worst possible types. 2nd preference seemed to be have a go at PR and then change your mind after the first round and resort to fptp, which to me seems odd and lists are just awful for so many reasons.
Until recently since Labour started meddling with different voting systems we've had FPTP (historical, Westminster), PR (European Parliament) and Secondary Vote (Mayors), with a rejected referendum to change to AV. People are getting in the habit of having different voting systems. Voting systems is not just the preserve of cranks but instead discussed every time one of those votes happens.
In England at least PR is set to be abolished by removing the European Parliament elections, now Secondary Vote is being abolished. The only habitual voting system that about 90% of the UK will have is FPTP. Voting systems is going to be a discussion for eccentrics and the minor nations.
Northern Ireland has had STV for local elections for a very long time. Possibly from its creation or very soon after, although ICBW on that.
That's why I mentioned (with no disrespect intended) the devolved nations at the end of my post. But the devolved nations are different.
England and English voters will have one system not a plethora of them.
Theresa May’s Police Cuts Exposed By Manchester Bombing Army Deployment - Police Federation After 20,000 jobs lost, ‘we simply do not have the resources’
Vote Labour & shut us down completely?
What are you talking about
One of two options may not seem a very good choice. It doesn't necessarily follow that the second option is a better choice; it could be even worse.
In the middle of a GE campaign, a statement like that from a union like the Police Federation is not simply putting pressure on Mrs May to increase police funding. It is offering the cuts as a reason not to vote for her party.
It follows therefore that the Police Federation would prefer Ms Abbott as Home Secretary: a lady who has said she wants the British state to be defeated.
In his autobiography, Tony Blair described the Police Staff Federation as the strongest and most well organised trade union in the country.
I doubt it would give any Home Secretary an easy time.
bigjohnowls is willing to pound the pavement to drum up support a bunch of terrorist sympathizers, Marxists, Communists, Antisemites and holocaust deniers and willing to lie to peoples faces about losing their homes....when most sensible Labour posters on here are utterly appalled by Team Twat and just pray to be able to get the sensible decent party they support back.
@samgadjones: Upshot of a few conversations in past hour: UK security types are astonished about US leaks over Manchester.
@samgadjones: Genuine concerns that the details getting out there will impede investigations and could endanger British lives.
@samgadjones: Some in Whitehall are discussing possibility of not sharing everything with the US. A remarkable departure from years of CT work post 9/11
@samgadjones: Upshot of a few conversations in past hour: UK security types are astonished about US leaks over Manchester.
@samgadjones: Genuine concerns that the details getting out there will impede investigations and could endanger British lives.
@samgadjones: Some in Whitehall are discussing possibility of not sharing everything with the US. A remarkable departure from years of CT work post 9/11
And we were worried about Trump and his big mouth....
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
Report the son to the authorities, you don't need to let the family know you did so. But the spooks need to get him on their watch list it sounds to me - the pros can handle things after you've reported your suspicions.
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
Ideal time for Labour to respond to Mail with the 'Adolf Hitler's favourite British newspaper' jibe.
Sure, because why wouldn't they want the Mail to come back with the response that that is so twattish, even the Guardian realises it is twattish, and btw and while we've got you in the studio, are there any issues on which large numbers of Labour party members would have seen eye to eye with good old Adolf?
It was the Corbyn-supporting Daily Mirror which published an infamous article in January 1934, headlined "Give the Blackshirts a helping hand."
That's because at that point it was owned by the same fascist that owned the Mail. If eg Rupe owned the Mirror now, it would doubtless be crawling up the arse of whichever ghastly politician he required it to.
Some 20,000 police jobs have been cut since the Conservatives came to power in 2010 and budgets slashed by around 4% every year when May was Home Secretary.
How many of that 20,000 were beat coppers?
Even if they were, beat coppers have very little to do counter-terrorism.
Crime rates have dropped sharply over the past decade, hence the reduction in police numbers.
We should measure outputs, not inputs - the effectiveness of the police is not related to how many people are employed by them. It's been twelve years since the bastards last got us, and they only have to succeed once while we have to succeed every time.
Well done to those who keep us safe, and shame on whichever idiot at the Police Federation thought that making terrorism into a political point was a good idea.
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
Also applies to Army,RN,RAF,NHS, Border Service, Fire Service
All while threat was severe
When funding was much higher we had the London tube bombings, and when would chucking money at the armed forces have stopped terrorism? Counter terrorism is concentrated on the intelligence services, the police are just there for the raids.
That's not fair. As I laid out up thread, you're quite right that the "cuts" haven't affected CT policing (and mostly just helped rationalise away back office jobs that never should have been unformed or were replicated in neighbouring forces) but this week of all weeks we should recognise the hard work and professionalism of the Met Counter Terrorism Command and the important role of many national police forces in preventing terror plots over the years.
@samgadjones: Upshot of a few conversations in past hour: UK security types are astonished about US leaks over Manchester.
@samgadjones: Genuine concerns that the details getting out there will impede investigations and could endanger British lives.
@samgadjones: Some in Whitehall are discussing possibility of not sharing everything with the US. A remarkable departure from years of CT work post 9/11
HMG should express those concerns loudly and publicly.
As they say, the security services have to be right every time, they only have to get lucky once. It was only 2-3 weeks ago that they took down somebody in the middle of London, who appeared to be on his way to carry on an attack and we were saying how great they are.
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
If you have suspicions you should report them.
Interesting. 99% of me is inclined the other way. What business is it of mine what they believe? They are unfailingly polite. They've done nothing to annoy or harm or even irritate me. It seems and feels wrong to report any of them. I also have no concrete eye-witness evidence of anything.
And yet, after Manchester...
Hmm.
That's why we have the security services to make these judgements for us. I guess the only thing you should be worried about is would it be adding an unnecessary burden on them to investigate your concerns.
Also applies to Army,RN,RAF,NHS, Border Service, Fire Service
All while threat was severe
When funding was much higher we had the London tube bombings, and when would chucking money at the armed forces have stopped terrorism? Counter terrorism is concentrated on the intelligence services, the police are just there for the raids.
That's not fair. As I laid out up thread, you're quite right that the "cuts" haven't affected CT policing (and mostly just helped rationalise away back office jobs that never should have been unformed or were replicated in neighbouring forces) but this week of all weeks we should recognise the hard work and professionalism of the Met Counter Terrorism Command and the important role of many national police forces in preventing terror plots over the years.
Good point, I retract. I got carried away in my dislike of the idea that just chucking money at the situation would have stopped the bombing. It is very, very difficult to stop terrorist attacks that have any element of sophistication.
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
Ultimately that's why we have a number you can call. If they only get you reporting what you've laid out there, they will do nothing. But if someone has also reported the daughters missing from school, or the shop owner takes an interest in a broader range of chemicals than could be used for dry cleaning, etc. etc. then all of those intelligence points will be put together and someone may have a look.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
Nothing. Your instincts are right. Even if he IS listening to hate preaching, of which you have no real evidence, it's perfectly legal to listen to anything he wants so long as he doesn't take violent action. The police don't have time to watch everyone who sits around in between customers looking at videos. And if he's merely doing the equivalent of watching Songs of Praise, it's unreasonable to hassle him about it or even to expect him to be chatty. He's a dry cleaner, not a taxi-driver.
Nonsense. If there is a intelligence suggesting there is a real threat should we do nothing?
It's that or arm the police completely, which creates a long term change in the way we are policed rather than a short term one of troops on the streets.
Also applies to Army,RN,RAF,NHS, Border Service, Fire Service
All while threat was severe
When funding was much higher we had the London tube bombings, and when would chucking money at the armed forces have stopped terrorism? Counter terrorism is concentrated on the intelligence services, the police are just there for the raids.
That's not fair. As I laid out up thread, you're quite right that the "cuts" haven't affected CT policing (and mostly just helped rationalise away back office jobs that never should have been unformed or were replicated in neighbouring forces) but this week of all weeks we should recognise the hard work and professionalism of the Met Counter Terrorism Command and the important role of many national police forces in preventing terror plots over the years.
Good point, I retract. I got carried away in my dislike of the idea that just chucking money at the situation would have stopped the bombing. It is very, very difficult to stop terrorist attacks that have any element of sophistication.
So if the tone was patronising by the way, it's so hard to judge written down.
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
Call it in.
It's like all those ads on the Tube telling you if you see anything suspicious, report it. They aren't kidding.
Chances are they are doing nothing wrong, Ask yourself if you could live with the consequences if they are.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
Nothing. Your instincts are right. Even if he IS listening to hate preaching, of which you have no real evidence, it's perfectly legal to listen to anything he wants so long as he doesn't take violent action. The police don't have time to watch everyone who sits around in between customers looking at videos. And if he's merely doing the equivalent of watching Songs of Praise, it's unreasonable to hassle him about it or even to expect him to be chatty. He's a dry cleaner, not a taxi-driver.
Good. But she should publicly condemn the leak. Especially the leak of the name so early in the investigation.
From their live blog, a Whitehall source:
We are furious. This is completely unacceptable. These images leaked from inside the US system will be distressing for victims, their families and the wider public. The issue is being raised at every relevant level by the British authorities with their US counterparts.
Also applies to Army,RN,RAF,NHS, Border Service, Fire Service
All while threat was severe
When funding was much higher we had the London tube bombings, and when would chucking money at the armed forces have stopped terrorism? Counter terrorism is concentrated on the intelligence services, the police are just there for the raids.
That's not fair. As I laid out up thread, you're quite right that the "cuts" haven't affected CT policing (and mostly just helped rationalise away back office jobs that never should have been unformed or were replicated in neighbouring forces) but this week of all weeks we should recognise the hard work and professionalism of the Met Counter Terrorism Command and the important role of many national police forces in preventing terror plots over the years.
Good point, I retract. I got carried away in my dislike of the idea that just chucking money at the situation would have stopped the bombing. It is very, very difficult to stop terrorist attacks that have any element of sophistication.
So if the tone was patronising by the way, it's so hard to judge written down.
So...a big incident between Britain and the US. And the BBC reports the response from the mayor of Manchester. I don't want to hear the damned mayor of Manchester. I want to hear mophead Johnson. Where is he? Might awarding him too much exposure damage Tory election chances? Or does his US citizenship give him a conflict of interest?
Seems that the publication of the photos in the NYT was designed to swamp the earlier naming issue.
I withdraw my support for Theresa May's decision to give an increased role to the army. It's typical of the people who run Britain: in times of trouble, let's all think of the royal family. Buckingham Palace is already protected by the army, and by Israeli software. Soldiers should be sent to shopping centres, transport hubs, football matches, and other entertainment events.
Is even a single newspaper asking how Ramadan Abedi managed to get into the foyer and explode the bomb?
Who did the security? Were all the security staff SIA approved? Is there any involvement of gangsters in security at the Manchester Arena? (And is the Pope Catholic?)
Talking of Israel...while no decent person respects the right of that Nazi-style ethnic supremacist regime to exist, it has to be recognised that security at such events on territory controlled by that regime is far superior to security in Britain.
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
If you have suspicions you should report them.
Interesting. 99% of me is inclined the other way. What business is it of mine what they believe? They are unfailingly polite. They've done nothing to annoy or harm or even irritate me. It seems and feels wrong to report any of them. I also have no concrete eye-witness evidence of anything.
And yet, after Manchester...
Hmm.
You're an author - try re-casting it into different scenarios ... say there'd been a rash of Christian fundamentalists who were bombing abortion clinics. You see signs your shopkeeper's family may be going down that route. How would you respond then?
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
If you have suspicions you should report them.
Interesting. 99% of me is inclined the other way. What business is it of mine what they believe? They are unfailingly polite. They've done nothing to annoy or harm or even irritate me. It seems and feels wrong to report any of them. I also have no concrete eye-witness evidence of anything.
And yet, after Manchester...
Hmm.
The mini-max regret decision method might apply here.
So...a big incident between Britain and the US. And the BBC reports the response from the mayor of Manchester. I don't want to hear the damned mayor of Manchester. I want to hear mophead Johnson. Where is he? Might awarding him too much exposure damage Tory election chances? Or does his US citizenship give him a conflict of interest?
Seems that the publication of the photos in the NYT was designed to swamp the earlier naming issue.
I withdraw my support for Theresa May's decision to give an increased role to the army. It's typical of the people who run Britain: in times of trouble, let's all think of the royal family. Buckingham Palace is already protected by the army, and by Israeli software. Soldiers should be sent to shopping centres, transport hubs, football matches, and other entertainment events.
Is even a single newspaper asking how Ramadan Abedi managed to get into the foyer and explode the bomb?
Who did the security? Were all the security staff SIA approved? Is there any involvement of gangsters in security at the Manchester Arena? (And is the Pope Catholic?)
Talking of Israel...while no decent person respects the right of that Nazi-style ethnic supremacist regime to exist, it has to be recognised that security at such events on territory controlled by that regime is far superior to security in Britain.
Rudd and Fallon have already expressed their disappointment. Suspect that will go up another notch with the release of those photos.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
Nothing. Your instincts are right. Even if he IS listening to hate preaching, of which you have no real evidence, it's perfectly legal to listen to anything he wants so long as he doesn't take violent action. The police don't have time to watch everyone who sits around in between customers looking at videos. And if he's merely doing the equivalent of watching Songs of Praise, it's unreasonable to hassle him about it or even to expect him to be chatty. He's a dry cleaner, not a taxi-driver.
Why would Sean need to hassle him about it, not exactly the same situation - but our audit accountants have a duty to report the directors of my firm if they suspect fraud. And they can not tell us. Sean doesn't need to tell the son he has reported him, and in fact shouldn't. OK Its a bit snitch/behind back but the spooks might have others reporting him, they might not. Intelligence is a jigsaw and we need to help the authorities put the pieces together.
bigjohnowls is willing to pound the pavement to drum up support a bunch of terrorist sympathizers, Marxists, Communists, Antisemites and holocaust deniers and willing to lie to peoples faces about losing their homes....when most sensible Labour posters on here are utterly appalled by Team Twat and just pray to be able to get the sensible decent party they support back.
How do you define sensible Labour posters? Ah, people you agree with?
I'm pounding pavements for Labour too, by the way, so are thousands of perfectly decent people who don't happen to agree with you, and most of us disagree with your characterisation. What's the point of ranting at people in other parties on PB? Do you hope to persuade us? If we harangue you in turn about the wicked Tories, will we persuade you? Nah, it'll just make PB tedious.
Comments
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/19/john-mcdonnell-denies-backing-call-to-end-mi5-and-disarm-police
"Mr Corbyn, do you want to disband the security services?"
"No, of course not!"
"So, you are at odds with Diane Abbot. Diane Abbot who is your Shadow Home Secretary. The person who would be in charge of national security...."
"No, she -"
"Let me quote her words, verbatim Mr Corbyn............."
@PickardJE: More Tory reshuffle rumours: Leadsom and Javid unlikely to remain in a future May cabinet. Comes with usual disclaimers.
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_5925d9f0e4b062f96a336e5f
After 20,000 jobs lost, ‘we simply do not have the resources’
Is Eoin Morgan an honorary member of the Conservative party (despite being Irish)?
Is that allowed?
Careless Talk costs lives and stating what is being done is careless talk...
I reckon by the end of the campaign, every single person eligible to vote will know, in detail, everything Corbyn, Abbott & McDonnell ever said and did.
And their judgement will be severe. The Sun and the Mail doing it for them is the story of British political discourse.
Ideal time for Labour to respond to Mail with the 'Adolf Hitler's favourite British newspaper' jibe.
Do they know something I don't?!
Meanwhile the electorate wants to know how we can stop nutters murdering our children and who would be the best person to run the country right now.
Neither, is my conclusion.
More
Manchester United. Tonight more than ever.
1. Most high value target watch isn't done by the cops, its done by MI5
2. There haven't been any significant cuts in Islamic extremist terror policing
3. We require skilled armed people on the street and a 20 year old squaddie probably has more experience of wielding a full calibre weapon than most of those in the supposed 20 000 lost jobs.
The threat is clear. Evidence has led to a deduction that more than one bomb may have been built but, if there is they haven't found them. This is why they are on the street. If you had 20 000 cops extra, the army would still be on the street.
Actually The Daily Mirror was Hitler's favourite paper, and well they are now supporting Corbyn, coincidence? I think not.
What is less well known......The Daily Mirror was just as pro-fascist. On Monday, 22 January, 1934 the Mirror ran the headline "Give the Blackshirts a helping hand". The paper went one further than the Mail, urging readers to join Mosley's British Union of Fascists, and giving the address to which to send membership applications.
"As a purely British organisation, the Blackshirts will respect those principles of tolerance which are traditional in British politics," the Mirror told readers, complaining that "timid alarmists" had "been whimpering that the rapid growth in numbers of the British Blackshirts is preparing the way for a system of rulership by means of steel whips and concentration camps".
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/revealed-the-fascist-past-of-the-daily-mirror-77871.html
Crime rates have dropped sharply over the past decade, hence the reduction in police numbers.
In England at least PR is set to be abolished by removing the European Parliament elections, now Secondary Vote is being abolished. The only habitual voting system that about 90% of the UK will have is FPTP. Voting systems is going to be a discussion for eccentrics and the minor nations.
Any issues at all?
edit to add https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2011/dec/06/dailymail-oswald-mosley
In the middle of a GE campaign, a statement like that from a union like the Police Federation is not simply putting pressure on Mrs May to increase police funding. It is offering the cuts as a reason not to vote for her party.
It follows therefore that the Police Federation would prefer Ms Abbott as Home Secretary: a lady who has said she wants the British state to be defeated.
Also applies to Army,RN,RAF,NHS, Border Service, Fire Service
All while threat was severe
No, me neither.
Counter terrorism is concentrated on the intelligence services, the police are just there for the raids.
England and English voters will have one system not a plethora of them.
I doubt it would give any Home Secretary an easy time.
What were the police numbers in 2005? and How many terrorist attacks happened in the UK?
https://twitter.com/politico/status/867480636990291968
@samgadjones: Genuine concerns that the details getting out there will impede investigations and could endanger British lives.
@samgadjones: Some in Whitehall are discussing possibility of not sharing everything with the US. A remarkable departure from years of CT work post 9/11
Well done to those who keep us safe, and shame on whichever idiot at the Police Federation thought that making terrorism into a political point was a good idea.
It is very, very difficult to stop terrorist attacks that have any element of sophistication.
So if you think it feels wrong, report it.
It's like all those ads on the Tube telling you if you see anything suspicious, report it. They aren't kidding.
Chances are they are doing nothing wrong, Ask yourself if you could live with the consequences if they are.
Grass him up @SeanT
Good. But she should publicly condemn the leak. Especially the leak of the name so early in the investigation.
From their live blog, a Whitehall source:
We are furious. This is completely unacceptable. These images leaked from inside the US system will be distressing for victims, their families and the wider public. The issue is being raised at every relevant level by the British authorities with their US counterparts.
Seems that the publication of the photos in the NYT was designed to swamp the earlier naming issue.
I withdraw my support for Theresa May's decision to give an increased role to the army. It's typical of the people who run Britain: in times of trouble, let's all think of the royal family. Buckingham Palace is already protected by the army, and by Israeli software. Soldiers should be sent to shopping centres, transport hubs, football matches, and other entertainment events.
Is even a single newspaper asking how Ramadan Abedi managed to get into the foyer and explode the bomb?
Who did the security? Were all the security staff SIA approved? Is there any involvement of gangsters in security at the Manchester Arena? (And is the Pope Catholic?)
Talking of Israel...while no decent person respects the right of that Nazi-style ethnic supremacist regime to exist, it has to be recognised that security at such events on territory controlled by that regime is far superior to security in Britain.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4537978/Woman-HECKLES-police-soldiers-Downing-Street.html
Sean doesn't need to tell the son he has reported him, and in fact shouldn't. OK Its a bit snitch/behind back but the spooks might have others reporting him, they might not. Intelligence is a jigsaw and we need to help the authorities put the pieces together.
I'm pounding pavements for Labour too, by the way, so are thousands of perfectly decent people who don't happen to agree with you, and most of us disagree with your characterisation. What's the point of ranting at people in other parties on PB? Do you hope to persuade us? If we harangue you in turn about the wicked Tories, will we persuade you? Nah, it'll just make PB tedious.