Interesting. 99% of me is inclined the other way. What business is it of mine what they believe? They are unfailingly polite. They've done nothing to annoy or harm or even irritate me. It seems and feels wrong to report any of them. I also have no concrete eye-witness evidence of anything.
And yet, after Manchester...
Hmm.
That's why we have the security services to make these judgements for us. I guess the only thing you should be worried about is would it be adding an unnecessary burden on them to investigate your concerns.
Yep, that's an issue.
There is an alternative route, Sean. Next time you are in with the old man, tell him that you have noticed that the family seems to be becoming more conservative, with beards, and sermons etc... Ask him, in a genuinely inquisitive way, about his religious beliefs and, if they have changed, what is driving it.
You are a human, a social being, a journalist and a novelist. You have every reason to be inquisitive and curious about the fellow human beings in your life, no matter how superficially they are there.
His answers might put your mind at ease, or make the decision to talk to security personnel more clear cut.
PS There are any number of different ways you could do this, if the above approach does not do it for you. You might says, for instance, I notice you are a conservative Muslim, and I am interested on your take on the Manchester attacks and how that event may affect your and your family given your visible signs of Islam
Hopefully there won't be too much ire directed at the Government and security services, unless evidence of straightforward incompetence comes to light.
Given that police and intelligence officers are doubtless engaged in a constant game of whac-a-jihadi, played for the highest stakes against many thousands of fanatical enemies, it's probably safe to assume that they've done a remarkable job in foiling every potential mass casualty terror plot for nearly a dozen years.
So...a big incident between Britain and the US. And the BBC reports the response from the mayor of Manchester. I don't want to hear the damned mayor of Manchester. I want to hear mophead Johnson. Where is he? Might awarding him too much exposure damage Tory election chances? Or does his US citizenship give him a conflict of interest?
Seems that the publication of the photos in the NYT was designed to swamp the earlier naming issue.
I withdraw my support for Theresa May's decision to give an increased role to the army. It's typical of the people who run Britain: in times of trouble, let's all think of the royal family. Buckingham Palace is already protected by the army, and by Israeli software. Soldiers should be sent to shopping centres, transport hubs, football matches, and other entertainment events.
Is even a single newspaper asking how Ramadan Abedi managed to get into the foyer and explode the bomb?
Who did the security? Were all the security staff SIA approved? Is there any involvement of gangsters in security at the Manchester Arena? (And is the Pope Catholic?)
Talking of Israel...while no decent person respects the right of that Nazi-style ethnic supremacist regime to exist, it has to be recognised that security at such events on territory controlled by that regime is far superior to security in Britain.
The armed forces are not trained to police such places, they are being put where they won't have to do much aside from guarding buildings. Even that is going to be much more pressurised and high profile than they are used to.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
Nothing. Your instincts are right. Even if he IS listening to hate preaching, of which you have no real evidence, it's perfectly legal to listen to anything he wants so long as he doesn't take violent action. The police don't have time to watch everyone who sits around in between customers looking at videos. And if he's merely doing the equivalent of watching Songs of Praise, it's unreasonable to hassle him about it or even to expect him to be chatty. He's a dry cleaner, not a taxi-driver.
Sure. That's my natural reflex.
But what, then, if I later learn that the son has gone to Syria, or done something even worse?
You've at least avoided wasting police time with wildly inadequate evidence, and therefore slightly increased the chance that they'll catch someone genuinely dangerous.
But I agree with TimT, you could take a friendly interest, maybe ask after his family too, and see how he responds. But he's not really required to, and if he just smiles vaguely it's not evidence either.
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
If you have suspicions you should report them.
Interesting. 99% of me is inclined the other way. What business is it of mine what they believe? They are unfailingly polite. They've done nothing to annoy or harm or even irritate me. It seems and feels wrong to report any of them. I also have no concrete eye-witness evidence of anything.
And yet, after Manchester...
Hmm.
What exactly are you reporting? That they have become more religiosly conservative.
SeanT: Hello I would like to report my suspicions of a muslim family please.
Call handeler: OK, go ahead what are your suspicions.
Seant: Well there's this family that own a laundrette, they have become more conservative the son has grown a beard, a really long one. and the daughters are not there anymore, oh and the dad/grandad listens to some really scary sounding Arabic........em I'm really worried about them.....
Callhandler: OK.....em what is the dad/grandad listening to?
SeanT: I'm not sure but it sounds really scary it's really shouty.
Callhandler: OK Thank you for your call, your concerns have been noted. Good bye.
Call the anti-terror hotline if you want to the the police won't pay them a visit but they will be watched for a bit, but we must be careful not to be paranoid.
Given that police and intelligence officers are doubtless engaged in a constant game of whac-a-jihadi, played for the highest stakes against many thousands of fanatical enemies, it's probably safe to assume that they've done a remarkable job in foiling every potential mass casualty terror plot for nearly a dozen years.
Yeah it's stupid to count the "failures" if you don't count the successes. On average about 1 person a day is arrested for a terrorism offence. There are a lot of plots being foiled, and some of them were intended to be much worse than what happened on Monday night.
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
If you have suspicions you should report them.
Interesting. 99% of me is inclined the other way. What business is it of mine what they believe? They are unfailingly polite. They've done nothing to annoy or harm or even irritate me. It seems and feels wrong to report any of them. I also have no concrete eye-witness evidence of anything.
And yet, after Manchester...
Hmm.
That's why we have the security services to make these judgements for us. I guess the only thing you should be worried about is would it be adding an unnecessary burden on them to investigate your concerns.
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
Report the son to the authorities, you don't need to let the family know you did so. But the spooks need to get him on their watch list it sounds to me - the pros can handle things after you've reported your suspicions.
Report the son for what growing a long beard? Did the Manchester bomber have a long beard and wear traditional clothes? No. Actually most (all?) of the bombers in Britain have NOT been like this.
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
Rather than hate preaching, he might be embarrassed at you catching him reading your latest sexual exploits on pb.com? Hence the general disdain - and absence of daughters....
@nunu There was a piece on the radio today, the chap said if something feels out of place, wrong, then it should definitely be reported.
Precisely this.
Give someone else the jigsaw piece you just saw, even if it's tiny. If everyone who sees something that looks wrong does that, then a distrubring picture might emerge. However if the police stick two jigsaw pieces together and can tell it's going to be a boring picture of a Swiss Street in the snow, they will move on,
Trust your instincts, and then trust the authorities to take a view. There are plenty of safeguards for the privacy of the family.
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
Report the son to the authorities, you don't need to let the family know you did so. But the spooks need to get him on their watch list it sounds to me - the pros can handle things after you've reported your suspicions.
Report the son for what growing a long beard? Did the Manchester bomber have a long beard and wear traditional clothes? No. Actually most (all?) of the bombers in Britain have NOT been like this.
He can just report it all as he's described here. It's probably nothing, but that is for the spooks to decide. His local imam might get a tip off and be able to find out if anything is going on in his life for instance. I don't know exactly how these things work, but as Sean Fear says better to be safe rather than sorry.
Interesting. 99% of me is inclined the other way. What business is it of mine what they believe? They are unfailingly polite. They've done nothing to annoy or harm or even irritate me. It seems and feels wrong to report any of them. I also have no concrete eye-witness evidence of anything.
And yet, after Manchester...
Hmm.
That's why we have the security services to make these judgements for us. I guess the only thing you should be worried about is would it be adding an unnecessary burden on them to investigate your concerns.
Yep, that's an issue.
There is an alternative route, Sean. Next time you are in with the old man, tell him that you have noticed that the family seems to be becoming more conservative, with beards, and sermons etc... Ask him, in a genuinely inquisitive way, about his religious beliefs and, if they have changed, what is driving it.
You are a human, a social being, a journalist and a novelist. You have every reason to be inquisitive and curious about the fellow human beings in your life, no matter how superficially they are there.
His answers might put your mind at ease, or make the decision to talk to security personnel more clear cut.
PS There are any number of different ways you could do this, if the above approach does not do it for you. You might says, for instance, I notice you are a conservative Muslim, and I am interested on your take on the Manchester attacks and how that event may affect your and your family given your visible signs of Islam
A good suggestion - if only they were chattier. It's very hard to get them to talk. They are reserved and uptight. And so are many Brits. It's not a crime.
Another thing I've noticed is a slight tension between the deeply religious son who has basically stopped serving customers - the guy with the long long beard - and the westernised son, clean-shaven, more friendly, who now does all the customer work. Hmm.
It's a genuine dilemma.
I was going to say - just ask them. No law against it. Say 'what's with the beard? Any holidays planned??' Wink wink
You wouldn't hesitate to comment if a white British family suddenly changed, so why not in this situation?
There is an alternative route, Sean. Next time you are in with the old man, tell him that you have noticed that the family seems to be becoming more conservative, with beards, and sermons etc... Ask him, in a genuinely inquisitive way, about his religious beliefs and, if they have changed, what is driving it.
You are a human, a social being, a journalist and a novelist. You have every reason to be inquisitive and curious about the fellow human beings in your life, no matter how superficially they are there.
His answers might put your mind at ease, or make the decision to talk to security personnel more clear cut.
PS There are any number of different ways you could do this, if the above approach does not do it for you. You might says, for instance, I notice you are a conservative Muslim, and I am interested on your take on the Manchester attacks and how that event may affect your and your family given your visible signs of Islam
A good suggestion - if only they were chattier. It's very hard to get them to talk. They are reserved and uptight. And so are many Brits. It's not a crime.
Another thing I've noticed is a slight tension between the deeply religious son who has basically stopped serving customers - the guy with the long long beard - and the westernised son, clean-shaven, more friendly, who now does all the customer work. Hmm.
It's a genuine dilemma.
I understand. But in my travels in the Middle East and Pakistan, I have found ways to engage very conservative people. It may take several smaller conversations before you can start talking about bigger issues. But finding a point of commonality is always a good starting point.
Here, say in gas stations, I nearly always ask people who are clearly not US-born where there accent is from and then, once they state a country, ask which town. If I've been there, I say so and make some compliment about the place. It's amazing how that opens the door to conversation.
In Africa, it is easy. You just ask them which Premier League team they support. If you know little bit about the London and Merseyside teams, you'll be ok!
So...a big incident between Britain and the US. And the BBC reports the response from the mayor of Manchester. I don't want to hear the damned mayor of Manchester. I want to hear mophead Johnson. Where is he? Might awarding him too much exposure damage Tory election chances? Or does his US citizenship give him a conflict of interest?
Seems that the publication of the photos in the NYT was designed to swamp the earlier naming issue.
I withdraw my support for Theresa May's decision to give an increased role to the army. It's typical of the people who run Britain: in times of trouble, let's all think of the royal family. Buckingham Palace is already protected by the army, and by Israeli software. Soldiers should be sent to shopping centres, transport hubs, football matches, and other entertainment events.
Is even a single newspaper asking how Ramadan Abedi managed to get into the foyer and explode the bomb?
Who did the security? Were all the security staff SIA approved? Is there any involvement of gangsters in security at the Manchester Arena? (And is the Pope Catholic?)
Talking of Israel...while no decent person respects the right of that Nazi-style ethnic supremacist regime to exist, it has to be recognised that security at such events on territory controlled by that regime is far superior to security in Britain.
The armed forces are not trained to police such places, they are being put where they won't have to do much aside from guarding buildings. Even that is going to be much more pressurised and high profile than they are used to.
You think the army aren't used to pressure? They can protect those places. They would do things in a service fashion, for sure, but that would be a positive.
Actually @SeanT could you get a muslim Arab friend to go to the laundrette next to hear what the guy is playing or even make small talk with them to put you at ease. People often feel more comfortable speaking to people who are like them.
I have a, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
If you have suspicions you should report them.
Interesting. 99% of me is inclined the other way. What business is it of mine what they believe? They are unfailingly polite. They've done nothing to annoy or harm or even irritate me. It seems and feels wrong to report any of them. I also have no concrete eye-witness evidence of anything.
And yet, after Manchester...
Hmm.
What exactly are you reporting? That they have become more religiosly conservative.
SeanT: Hello I would like to report my suspicions of a muslim family please.
Call handeler: OK, go ahead what are your suspicions.
Seant: Well there's this family that own a laundrette, they have become more conservative the son has grown a beard, a really long one. and the daughters are not there anymore, oh and the dad/grandad listens to some really scary sounding Arabic........em I'm really worried about them.....
Callhandler: OK.....em what is the dad/grandad listening to?
SeanT: I'm not sure but it sounds really scary it's really shouty.
Callhandler: OK Thank you for your call, your concerns have been noted. Good bye.
Call the anti-terror hotline if you want to the the police won't pay them a visit but they will be watched for a bit, but we must be careful not to be paranoid.
lol. Yes, I am well aware the convo might go that way and I will feel and look like an idiot, along with having the guilt of "snitching" on a perfectly polite, if taciturn family, who have done me zero harm, and are my fellow British citizens.
There must be thousands of non-Muslim Brits wrestling with this kind of dilemma right now, across the country. At what point do you overcome your natural and admirable British urge to live and let live, and say OK, this is slightly alarming.
How will you feel if one of them turns out to be the next Abedi?
If you are concerned then say so. It will always be on your conscience otherwise.
That's why we have the security services to make these judgements for us. I guess the only thing you should be worried about is would it be adding an unnecessary burden on them to investigate your concerns.
Yep, that's an issue.
There is ant says, for instance, I notice you are a conservative Muslim, and I am interested on your take on the Manchester attacks and how that event may affect your and your family given your visible signs of Islam
A good suggestion - if only they were chattier. It's very hard to get them to talk. They are reserved and uptight. And so are many Brits. It's not a crime.
Another thing I've noticed is a slight tension between the deeply religious son who has basically stopped serving customers - the guy with the long long beard - and the westernised son, clean-shaven, more friendly, who now does all the customer work. Hmm.
It's a genuine dilemma.
I was going to say - just ask them. No law against it. Say 'what's with the beard? Any holidays planned??' Wink wink
You wouldn't hesitate to comment if a white British family suddenly changed, so why not in this situation?
Yes, I WOULD hesitate to comment if a white British family suddenly changed. For exactly the same reasons. They are my fellow British citizens, and they have done nothing visibly wrong.
I just have a vague disquiet, and I don't know if that is remotely enough reason " to go to the police".
I think that disquiet is very healthy. Hence my suggestion to engage in whatever way you can before judging, and before reporting.
There is an alternative route, Sean. Next time you are in with the old man, tell him that you have noticed that the family seems to be becoming more conservative, with beards, and sermons etc... Ask him, in a genuinely inquisitive way, about his religious beliefs and, if they have changed, what is driving it.
You are a human, a social being, a journalist and a novelist. You have every reason to be inquisitive and curious about the fellow human beings in your life, no matter how superficially they are there.
His answers might put your mind at ease, or make the decision to talk to security personnel more clear cut.
PS There are any number of different ways you could do this, if the above approach does not do it for you. You might says, for instance, I notice you are a conservative Muslim, and I am interested on your take on the Manchester attacks and how that event may affect your and your family given your visible signs of Islam
A good suggestion - if only they were chattier. It's very hard to get them to talk. They are reserved and uptight. And so are many Brits. It's not a crime.
Another thing I've noticed is a slight tension between the deeply religious son who has basically stopped serving customers - the guy with the long long beard - and the westernised son, clean-shaven, more friendly, who now does all the customer work. Hmm.
It's a genuine dilemma.
I understand. But in my travels in the Middle East and Pakistan, I have found ways to engage very conservative people. It may take several smaller conversations before you can start talking about bigger issues. But finding a point of commonality is always a good starting point.
Here, say in gas stations, I nearly always ask people who are clearly not US-born where there accent is from and then, once they state a country, ask which town. If I've been there, I say so and make some compliment about the place. It's amazing how that opens the door to conversation.
In Africa, it is easy. You just ask them which Premier League team they support. If you know little bit about the London and Merseyside teams, you'll be ok!
@SeanT, have you considered posing as a potential suicide bomber? Maybe you could ask for advice on what kind of detonator to use? "As one Islamic freedom fighter to another, I've got to ask, which deodorant works best when you're on a suicide run?"
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
Rather than hate preaching, he might be embarrassed at you catching him reading your latest sexual exploits on pb.com? Hence the general disdain - and absence of daughters....
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
it is the change in behaviour patterns that is the key- why the change? was there a trigger? what other things that you do not see have also changed?
If you report it and it is nothing you have wasted a little bit of someones time-no big deal
If you dont report it and it is something....someones life could be wasted....
The key is you feel the need to ask -that alone says that something to you feels wrong.
Good evening. I see we are discussing the rights and wrongs of grassing up a dry cleaner for growing a beard. Even by PB standards, that's one for the album.
@SeanT, have you considered posing as a potential suicide bomber? Maybe you could ask for advice on what kind of detonator to use? "As one Islamic freedom fighter to another, I've got to ask, which deodorant works best when you're on a suicide run?"
Robert, put down that Mojito.
Personally if I were you, I'd say 'I've been shagging some 20 something Corbynites, I've got some tips about shagging 72 virgins, are you're interested?'
There is an alternative route, Sean. Next time you are in with the old man, tell him that you have noticed that the family seems to be becoming more conservative, with beards, and sermons etc... Ask him, in a genuinely inquisitive way, about his religious beliefs and, if they have changed, what is driving it.
You are a human, a social being, a journalist and a novelist. You have every reason to be inquisitive and curious about the fellow human beings in your life, no matter how superficially they are there.
His answers might put your mind at ease, or make the decision to talk to security personnel more clear cut.
PS There are any number of different ways you could do this, if the above approach does not do it for you. You might says, for instance, I notice you are a conservative Muslim, and I am interested on your take on the Manchester attacks and how that event may affect your and your family given your visible signs of Islam
A good suggestion - if only they were chattier. It's very hard to get them to talk. They are reserved and uptight. And so are many Brits. It's not a crime.
Another thing I've noticed is a slight tension between the deeply religious son who has basically stopped serving customers - the guy with the long long beard - and the westernised son, clean-shaven, more friendly, who now does all the customer work. Hmm.
It's a genuine dilemma.
I understand. But in my travels in the Middle East and Pakistan, I have found ways to engage very conservative people. It may take several smaller conversations before you can start talking about bigger issues. But finding a point of commonality is always a good starting point.
Here, say in gas stations, I nearly always ask people who are clearly not US-born where there accent is from and then, once they state a country, ask which town. If I've been there, I say so and make some compliment about the place. It's amazing how that opens the door to conversation.
In Africa, it is easy. You just ask them which Premier League team they support. If you know little bit about the London and Merseyside teams, you'll be ok!
Do many say Palace?! ;-)
I hear Stoke City are popular in the Central African Republic.
There is an alternative route, Sean. Next time you are in with the old man, tell him that you have noticed that the family seems to be becoming more conservative, with beards, and sermons etc... Ask him, in a genuinely inquisitive way, about his religious beliefs and, if they have changed, what is driving it.
You are a human, a social being, a journalist and a novelist. You have every reason to be inquisitive and curious about the fellow human beings in your life, no matter how superficially they are there.
His answers might put your mind at ease, or make the decision to talk to security personnel more clear cut.
PS There are any number of different ways you could do this, if the above approach does not do it for you. You might says, for instance, I notice you are a conservative Muslim, and I am interested on your take on the Manchester attacks and how that event may affect your and your family given your visible signs of Islam
A good suggestion - if only they were chattier. It's very hard to get them to talk. They are reserved and uptight. And so are many Brits. It's not a crime.
Another thing I've noticed is a slight tension between the deeply religious son who has basically stopped serving customers - the guy with the long long beard - and the westernised son, clean-shaven, more friendly, who now does all the customer work. Hmm.
It's a genuine dilemma.
I understand. But in my travels in the Middle East and Pakistan, I have found ways to engage very conservative people. It may take several smaller conversations before you can start talking about bigger issues. But finding a point of commonality is always a good starting point.
Here, say in gas stations, I nearly always ask people who are clearly not US-born where there accent is from and then, once they state a country, ask which town. If I've been there, I say so and make some compliment about the place. It's amazing how that opens the door to conversation.
In Africa, it is easy. You just ask them which Premier League team they support. If you know little bit about the London and Merseyside teams, you'll be ok!
So...a big incident between Britain and the US. And the BBC reports the response from the mayor of Manchester. I don't want to hear the damned mayor of Manchester. I want to hear mophead Johnson. Where is he? Might awarding him too much exposure damage Tory election chances? Or does his US citizenship give him a conflict of interest?
Seems that the publication of the photos in the NYT was designed to swamp the earlier naming issue.
I withdraw my support for Theresa May's decision to give an increased role to the army. It's typical of the people who run Britain: in times of trouble, let's all think of the royal family. Buckingham Palace is already protected by the army, and by Israeli software. Soldiers should be sent to shopping centres, transport hubs, football matches, and other entertainment events.
Is even a single newspaper asking how Ramadan Abedi managed to get into the foyer and explode the bomb?
Who did the security? Were all the security staff SIA approved? Is there any involvement of gangsters in security at the Manchester Arena? (And is the Pope Catholic?)
Talking of Israel...while no decent person respects the right of that Nazi-style ethnic supremacist regime to exist, it has to be recognised that security at such events on territory controlled by that regime is far superior to security in Britain.
The armed forces are not trained to police such places, they are being put where they won't have to do much aside from guarding buildings. Even that is going to be much more pressurised and high profile than they are used to.
You think the army aren't used to pressure? They can protect those places. They would do things in a service fashion, for sure, but that would be a positive.
It is a different kind of pressure though, they would be used to being overseen by their commanders and colleagues but every day in front of the public all day? I think they can definitely protect what they are given to protect, I just don't think they could manage to police a match day at a big football game, or a busy train station. They don't have the training for it.
That's why we have the security services to make these judgements for us. I guess the only thing you should be worried about is would it be adding an unnecessary burden on them to investigate your concerns.
Yep, that's an issue.
There is ant says, for instance, I notice you are a conservative Muslim, and I am interested on your take on the Manchester attacks and how that event may affect your and your family given your visible signs of Islam
A good suggestion - if only they were chattier. It's very hard to get them to talk. They are reserved and uptight. And so are many Brits. It's not a crime.
Another thing I've noticed is a slight tension between the deeply religious son who has basically stopped serving customers - the guy with the long long beard - and the westernised son, clean-shaven, more friendly, who now does all the customer work. Hmm.
It's a genuine dilemma.
I was going to say - just ask them. No law against it. Say 'what's with the beard? Any holidays planned??' Wink wink
You wouldn't hesitate to comment if a white British family suddenly changed, so why not in this situation?
Yes, I WOULD hesitate to comment if a white British family suddenly changed. For exactly the same reasons. They are my fellow British citizens, and they have done nothing visibly wrong.
I just have a vague disquiet, and I don't know if that is remotely enough reason " to go to the police".
Really? If a regular white kid suddenly shaved all his hair off and started wearing vaguely nazi clothing in a family shop I used, I'd ask what brought it on and try a bit of light hearted banter before I reported him to the police
Good evening. I see we are discussing the rights and wrongs of grassing up a dry cleaner for growing a beard. Even by PB standards, that's one for the album.
The fact is in the world we live in, where sudden changes of behaviour are later revealed to be more significant than they appeared in isolation, it is in fact an issue of debate. That is deeply sad, and no one is happy about that, nor is everyone saying they think it should be done, but it is not, in today's world, a debate which comes out of nowhere without reason, and thus not in it self preposterous, much as we might wish it to be.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
Nothing. Your instincts are right. Even if he IS listening to hate preaching, of which you have no real evidence, it's perfectly legal to listen to anything he wants so long as he doesn't take violent action. The police don't have time to watch everyone who sits around in between customers looking at videos. And if he's merely doing the equivalent of watching Songs of Praise, it's unreasonable to hassle him about it or even to expect him to be chatty. He's a dry cleaner, not a taxi-driver.
Sure. That's my natural reflex.
But what, then, if I later learn that the son has gone to Syria, or done something even worse?
I have yet to meet anybody in this line of work who has said " i wish the public would call us less"
I've met or heard plenty who are utterly F***ed after an incident and who have said-"why the F*** are they telling us NOW that X or Y did this or that and that they had CHANGED" "why didn't they say something before?"
There is an alternative route, Sean. Next time you are in with the old man, tell him that you have noticed that the family seems to be becoming more conservative, with beards, and sermons etc... Ask him, in a genuinely inquisitive way, about his religious beliefs and, if they have changed, what is driving it.
You are a human, a social being, a journalist and a novelist. You have every reason to be inquisitive and curious about the fellow human beings in your life, no matter how superficially they are there.
His answers might put your mind at ease, or make the decision to talk to security personnel more clear cut.
PS There are any number of different ways you could do this, if the above approach does not do it for you. You might says, for instance, I notice you are a conservative Muslim, and I am interested on your take on the Manchester attacks and how that event may affect your and your family given your visible signs of Islam
A good suggestion - if only they were chattier. It's very hard to get them to talk. They are reserved and uptight. And so are many Brits. It's not a crime.
Another thing I've noticed is a slight tension between the deeply religious son who has basically stopped serving customers - the guy with the long long beard - and the westernised son, clean-shaven, more friendly, who now does all the customer work. Hmm.
It's a genuine dilemma.
I understand. But in my travels in the Middle East and Pakistan, I have found ways to engage very conservative people. It may take several smaller conversations before you can start talking about bigger issues. But finding a point of commonality is always a good starting point.
Here, say in gas stations, I nearly always ask people who are clearly not US-born where there accent is from and then, once they state a country, ask which town. If I've been there, I say so and make some compliment about the place. It's amazing how that opens the door to conversation.
In Africa, it is easy. You just ask them which Premier League team they support. If you know little bit about the London and Merseyside teams, you'll be ok!
My experience in Africa is that they support Barca.
Although they are so football mad, I did once watch Crewe Alexandra, live in a pizzeria in Equatorial Guinea....
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
Report the son to the authorities, you don't need to let the family know you did so. But the spooks need to get him on their watch list it sounds to me - the pros can handle things after you've reported your suspicions.
Report the son for what growing a long beard? Did the Manchester bomber have a long beard and wear traditional clothes? No. Actually most (all?) of the bombers in Britain have NOT been like this.
He wouldn't be reporting a crime, but his suspicions. Do it, Sean. You may have no idea what's on that audio or how to distinguish between a risk and a change in religiosity, but there are men and women working for the authorities who do. Tell them and let them get on with it. (They may already have had a look anyway.)
@SeanT, have you considered posing as a potential suicide bomber? Maybe you could ask for advice on what kind of detonator to use? "As one Islamic freedom fighter to another, I've got to ask, which deodorant works best when you're on a suicide run?"
Robert, put down that Mojito.
Personally if I were you, I'd say 'I've been shagging some 20 something Corbynites, I've got some tips about shagging 72 virgins, are you're interested?'
If he says yes, then call the hotline.
Not your greatest.
But seriously, you're a kinda Muslim (I mean that in the nicest way!) - what would YOU do? My strong and natural instinct, as I've said, is to ignore it. But a small voice says, Wait...
I'd get another Muslim involved if possible at first.
Surely you must have seen other Muslim customers there? If you have, perhaps they share the same observations/concerns as you, and ask them?
If not, then call the hotline, it might be the right thing to do, say if their local mosque has also contacted them as well (like the mosque of the Manc terrorist did) two red flags might do it.
If any Muslim family that I knew had changed like you have said, I'd have concerns too.
I have a, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
If you have suspicions you should report them.
Interesting. 99% of me is inclined the other way. What business is it of mine what they believe? They are unfailingly polite. They've done nothing to annoy or harm or even irritate me. It seems and feels wrong to report any of them. I also have no concrete eye-witness evidence of anything.
And yet, after Manchester...
Hmm.
What exactly are you reporting? That they have become more religiosly conservative.
SeanT: Hello I would like to report my suspicions of a muslim family please.
Call handeler: OK, go ahead what are your suspicions.
Seant: Well there's this family that own a laundrette, they have become more conservative the son has grown a beard, a really long one. and the daughters are not there anymore, oh and the dad/grandad listens to some really scary sounding Arabic........em I'm really worried about them.....
Callhandler: OK.....em what is the dad/grandad listening to?
SeanT: I'm not sure but it sounds really scary it's really shouty.
Callhandler: OK Thank you for your call, your concerns have been noted. Good bye.
Call the anti-terror hotline if you want to the the police won't pay them a visit but they will be watched for a bit, but we must be careful not to be paranoid.
lol. Yes, I am well aware the convo might go that way and I will feel and look like an idiot, along with having the guilt of "snitching" on a perfectly polite, if taciturn family, who have done me zero harm, and are my fellow British citizens.
There must be thousands of non-Muslim Brits wrestling with this kind of dilemma right now, across the country. At what point do you overcome your natural and admirable British urge to live and let live, and say OK, this is slightly alarming.
Somewhere in Manchester tonight there is probably someone thinking-perhaps i should have said something. Listening to Today this morning i was struck by how his neighbours all seemed to be able to identify an issue that was "different" about him in the run up to the attack-yet it was clear none had called it in.
22 are now dead
For the security services to be really effective , someone somewhere needs to tip them off.
An intriguing range of opinions on PB. From WTF Do Nothing to Report It Now, and all stations between.
Shukran.
There is a high probability that MI5 have an Arabic speaking agent who lives vaguely in your area. If you report it and they think it might be something, they'll probably send someone to pop in with some dry cleaning as a first step. Who knows you might end up doing your dry-cleaner a favour and get him an extra customer?
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
Depends how paranoid you wish to be. As any organic chemist will tell you, dry cleaning fluid (perchloroethylene), when heated to 600 F with oxygen, yields phosgene. Phosgene would make for an excellent weapon of mass destruction in a confines space such as a tube station.
Apart from the big dry cleaning machines, have you observed anything that looks like an oxygen injected furnace in the back of the shop? If you have, call them in.
Alternatively, maybe they're a bit stand-offish because they have to clean the stains from your clothes. Which, I imagine, might be, at best 'haram'.
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
I would remind myself you're a writer of fiction and scroll on to the next post.
I have a, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
If you have suspicions you should report them.
Interesting. 99% of me is inclined the other way. What business is it of mine what they believe? They are unfailingly polite. They've done nothing to annoy or harm or even irritate me. It seems and feels wrong to report any of them. I also have no concrete eye-witness evidence of anything.
And yet, after Manchester...
Hmm.
What exactly are you reporting? That they have become more religiosly conservative.
SeanT: Hello I would like to report my suspicions of a muslim family please.
Call handeler: OK, go ahead what are your suspicions.
Seant: Well there's this family that own a laundrette, they have become more conservative the son has grown a beard, a really long one. and the daughters are not there anymore, oh and the dad/grandad listens to some really scary sounding Arabic........em I'm really worried about them.....
Callhandler: OK.....em what is the dad/grandad listening to?
SeanT: I'm not sure but it sounds really scary it's really shouty.
Callhandler: OK Thank you for your call, your concerns have been noted. Good bye.
Call the anti-terror hotline if you want to the the police won't pay them a visit but they will be watched for a bit, but we must be careful not to be paranoid.
lol. Yes, I am well aware the convo might go that way and I will feel and look like an idiot, along with having the guilt of "snitching" on a perfectly polite, if taciturn family, who have done me zero harm, and are my fellow British citizens.
There must be thousands of non-Muslim Brits wrestling with this kind of dilemma right now, across the country. At what point do you overcome your natural and admirable British urge to live and let live, and say OK, this is slightly alarming.
For the security services to be really effective , someone somewhere needs to tip them off.
Call it in.
Ta.
And thanks to everyone for all the advice. It's an interesting contemporary dilemma.
Think I'm gonna take MTimT's advice, and just try chatting with them. And if I still feel this odd but incoherent disquiet, then ring the hotline.
Well done, calling the police before trying to talk to them would be wrong I feel. If we report every Asian man with a beard the polices phones will melt
The thing to do is see if anythings changed the next time you go in after broaching the subject.
That's why we have the security services to make these judgements for us. I guess the only thing you should be worried about is would it be adding an unnecessary burden on them to investigate your concerns.
Yep, that's an issue.
There is ant says, for instance, I notice you are a conservative Muslim, and I am interested on your take on the Manchester attacks and how that event may affect your and your family given your visible signs of Islam
A good suggestion - if only they were chattier. It's very hard to get them to talk. They are reserved and uptight. And so are many Brits. It's not a crime.
Another thing I've noticed is a slight tension between the deeply religious son who has basically stopped serving customers - the guy with the long long beard - and the westernised son, clean-shaven, more friendly, who now does all the customer work. Hmm.
It's a genuine dilemma.
I was going to say - just ask them. No law against it. Say 'what's with the beard? Any holidays planned??' Wink wink
You wouldn't hesitate to comment if a white British family suddenly changed, so why not in this situation?
Yes, I WOULD hesitate to comment if a white British family suddenly changed. For exactly the same reasons. They are my fellow British citizens, and they have done nothing visibly wrong.
I just have a vague disquiet, and I don't know if that is remotely enough reason " to go to the police".
When i first went to uni i was friends with someone but as time went by i started to feel uncomfortable about his attitude to women and other issues. I had a "disquiet" about the situation-so i drifted away from him. I said nothing
In my second year he raped a girl
In truth i wasn't shocked to hear he did it.
The fact you have raised the question means you have doubts-call it in
So...a big incident between Britain and the US. And the BBC reports the response from the mayor of Manchester. I don't want to hear the damned mayor of Manchester. I want to hear mophead Johnson. Where is he? Might awarding him too much exposure damage Tory election chances? Or does his US citizenship give him a conflict of interest?
Seems that the publication of the photos in the NYT was designed to swamp the earlier naming issue.
I withdraw my support for Theresa May's decision to give an increased role to the army. It's typical of the people who run Britain: in times of trouble, let's all think of the royal family. Buckingham Palace is already protected by the army, and by Israeli software. Soldiers should be sent to shopping centres, transport hubs, football matches, and other entertainment events.
Is even a single newspaper asking how Ramadan Abedi managed to get into the foyer and explode the bomb?
Who did the security? Were all the security staff SIA approved? Is there any involvement of gangsters in security at the Manchester Arena? (And is the Pope Catholic?)
Talking of Israel...while no decent person respects the right of that Nazi-style ethnic supremacist regime to exist, it has to be recognised that security at such events on territory controlled by that regime is far superior to security in Britain.
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
I would remind myself you're a writer of fiction and scroll on to the next post.
Even if it is merely a hypothetical scenario it is not worth considering the issues? No obligation to of course even if you think it is 100% true or 100% false, but without meaning to White Knight Sean, who can certainly handle himself, what does his occupation matter?
Sometimes we find some deep truths and insights through our stories. Factual or not often doesn't matter.
There is an alternative route, Sean. Next time you are in with the old man, tell him that you have noticed that the family seems to be becoming more conservative, with beards, and sermons etc... Ask him, in a genuinely inquisitive way, about his religious beliefs and, if they have changed, what is driving it.
You are a human, a social being, a journalist and a novelist. You have every reason to be inquisitive and curious about the fellow human beings in your life, no matter how superficially they are there.
His answers might put your mind at ease, or make the decision to talk to security personnel more clear cut.
PS There are any number of different ways you could do this, if the above approach does not do it for you. You might says, for instance, I notice you are a conservative Muslim, and I am interested on your take on the Manchester attacks and how that event may affect your and your family given your visible signs of Islam
A good suggestion - if only they were chattier. It's very hard to get them to talk. They are reserved and uptight. And so are many Brits. It's not a crime.
Another thing I've noticed is a slight tension between the deeply religious son who has basically stopped serving customers - the guy with the long long beard - and the westernised son, clean-shaven, more friendly, who now does all the customer work. Hmm.
It's a genuine dilemma.
I understand. But in my travels in the Middle East and Pakistan, I have found ways to engage very conservative people. It may take several smaller conversations before you can start talking about bigger issues. But finding a point of commonality is always a good starting point.
Here, say in gas stations, I nearly always ask people who are clearly not US-born where there accent is from and then, once they state a country, ask which town. If I've been there, I say so and make some compliment about the place. It's amazing how that opens the door to conversation.
In Africa, it is easy. You just ask them which Premier League team they support. If you know little bit about the London and Merseyside teams, you'll be ok!
How do feel about the GOP new "healthcare" plan. I guess it would benefit you overall, since you were hit by Obamacare. But surely this bill wont pass largely intact? It even guts provisions for people on *employer* plans.
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
I would remind myself you're a writer of fiction and scroll on to the next post.
Even if it is merely a hypothetical scenario it is not worth considering the issues? No obligation to of course even if you think it is 100% true or 100% false, but without meaning to White Knight Sean, who can certainly handle himself, what does his occupation matter?
Sometimes we find some deep truths and insights through our stories. Factual or not often doesn't matter.
My friend was on the Underground in March, heading from his workplace in central London. The commuter-time tube was packed and he was standing up down the aisle. He heard what sounded like gunfire coming from a fellow commuter's headphones. Looking down at the guy sat near him, he saw he was watching a violent movie scene on his mobile: a guy being shot in the head. Only on watching for a little while longer did my friend realise it was not Hollywood but in fact real life. The chap was watching Jihadi execution and recruitment videos via WhatsApp, flagrantly on a packed train. What to do?
Pretended to be reading his phone, my friend took pictures of the guy and informed a copper at his tube stop. The copper gave him his email address and asked him to send the details, which obviously he did. A few days later my friend gets a call from Counter Terrorism Police. One of the big questions is: did you note his make of mobile phone? Apparently this is really important in trying to track down suspects.
The CT plod thanked my friend and said something like "we live off these types of tip-offs."
The moral of the long story is: if in doubt, report it.
There is an alternative route, Sean. Next time you are in with the old man, tell him that you have noticed that the family seems to be becoming more conservative, with beards, and sermons etc... Ask him, in a genuinely inquisitive way, about his religious beliefs and, if they have changed, what is driving it.
You are a human, a social being, a journalist and a novelist. You have every reason to be inquisitive and curious about the fellow human beings in your life, no matter how superficially they are there.
His answers might put your mind at ease, or make the decision to talk to security personnel more clear cut.
PS There are any number of different ways you could do this, if the above approach does not do it for you. You might says, for instance, I notice you are a conservative Muslim, and I am interested on your take on the Manchester attacks and how that event may affect your and your family given your visible signs of Islam
A good suggestion - if only they were chattier. It's very hard to get them to talk. They are reserved and uptight. And so are many Brits. It's not a crime.
Another thing I've noticed is a slight tension between the deeply religious son who has basically stopped serving customers - the guy with the long long beard - and the westernised son, clean-shaven, more friendly, who now does all the customer work. Hmm.
It's a genuine dilemma.
I understand. But in my travels in the Middle East and Pakistan, I have found ways to engage very conservative people. It may take several smaller conversations before you can start talking about bigger issues. But finding a point of commonality is always a good starting point.
Here, say in gas stations, I nearly always ask people who are clearly not US-born where there accent is from and then, once they state a country, ask which town. If I've been there, I say so and make some compliment about the place. It's amazing how that opens the door to conversation.
In Africa, it is easy. You just ask them which Premier League team they support. If you know little bit about the London and Merseyside teams, you'll be ok!
Do many say Palace?! ;-)
I hear Stoke City are popular in the Central African Republic.
RobD thanks for the reply on the previous thread - appreciated.
I'm wondering why it (2nd pref to fptp) is in the manifesto. It raises issues on voting systems which will be debated again and which for the time being were completely dead and for types of elections where it is pretty impossible to put up an argument for fptp.
Just asking for trouble where none was present.
I asked for it to be added at the last minute as we hadn't had an AV thread for a while...
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
I would remind myself you're a writer of fiction and scroll on to the next post.
Even if it is merely a hypothetical scenario it is not worth considering the issues? No obligation to of course even if you think it is 100% true or 100% false, but without meaning to White Knight Sean, who can certainly handle himself, what does his occupation matter?
Sometimes we find some deep truths and insights through our stories. Factual or not often doesn't matter.
Post truth post.
I don't know what you mean. I was making the point that we explore ideas and feelings through fiction, so even if the specific scenario Sean raised is not a true one, the issues raised and our reactions to it can be relevant, rather than just dismissing it because you assume the facts are not true. Obviously if the situation is a real one, the facts of the situation are highly relevant to any actual action taken, but in terms of a bunch of strangers debating political and social issues on the internet, a plausible scenario as a vector to feel out people's thoughts on the issue is just as useful whether it is true or not.
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
I would remind myself you're a writer of fiction and scroll on to the next post.
My friend was on the Underground in March, heading from his workplace in central London. The commuter-time tube was packed and he was standing up down the aisle. He heard what sounded like gunfire coming from a fellow commuter's headphones. Looking down at the guy sat near him, he saw he was watching a violent movie scene on his mobile: a guy being shot in the head. Only on watching for a little while longer did my friend realise it was not Hollywood but in fact real life. The chap was watching Jihadi execution and recruitment videos via WhatsApp, flagrantly on a packed train. What to do?
Pretended to be reading his phone, my friend took pictures of the guy and informed a copper at his tube stop. The copper gave him his email address and asked him to send the details, which obviously he did. A few days later my friend gets a call from Counter Terrorism Police. One of the big questions is: did you note his make of mobile phone? Apparently this is really important in trying to track down suspects.
The CT plod thanked my friend and said something like "we live off these types of tip-offs."
The moral of the long story is: if in doubt, report it.
Fascinating. Yes I would definitely report a guy blatantly and publicly watching ISIS execution and recruitment vids on a train.
My situation is more nuanced, tho. I only have evidence of deeper religiosity, and islamic conservatism. That is significantly different and, prima facie, less alarming. "I do not wish to make windows into men's souls", as Elizabeth I said, in her greatness. Part of what makes England/Britain a marvellous country is that you are free to believe what you like. Just don't impose your beliefs on others.
"Snitching" on this family JUST coz they have become devoutly religious (as far as I can tell) feels wrong. UnBritish.
I'm gonna talk to them. That's unBritish too, but less sneaky. Inshallah they will tell me about their son's recent boozy stag do in Prague, and all will be well.
You must used veiled language of the sort Pinker talks about here around 10:50
I have a Muslim dry-cleaner, here in Camden. The patriarch and his sons run the shop, sometimes I see the daughters helping out. They've always been quite amiable, but they always maintain a distance. They aren't chatty. There is perhaps a hint of disdain for the Kaffir clientele, but that could just be me being paranoid. They clean my shirts very well. We all smile politely.
ANYWAY in recent months the family has changed. One of the sons has grown a VERY long beard and now dresses traditionally. He doesn't talk to me or any customers any more. The cowed and obedient daughters have disappeared entirely. Sometimes when I walk in the patriarch is playing videos on his iPhone which sound - to my ears - like ranting preachers. But it is in Arabic so I have no idea whether it is hate preaching, or just impassioned devotion. He hastily turns it off when I walk in.
Clearly this family has become more conservatively religious. But are they showing signs of being radicalised? My British instinct, my London instinct, is to shrug my shoulders and let them get on with their lives. Live and let live.
But what if that is wrong thing to do? Maybe I should mention to the police that this family is worth watching? Or is that a ludicrous waste of police time, and a betrayal of a perfectly respectable Muslim family who work hard and pay their taxes and are always polite?
What would you do?
If you have suspicions you should report them.
Interesting. 99% of me is inclined the other way. What business is it of mine what they believe? They are unfailingly polite. They've done nothing to annoy or harm or even irritate me. It seems and feels wrong to report any of them. I also have no concrete eye-witness evidence of anything.
And yet, after Manchester...
Hmm.
That's why we have the security services to make these judgements for us. I guess the only thing you should be worried about is would it be adding an unnecessary burden on them to investigate your concerns.
Yep, that's an issue.
They have access to a range of chemicals - it's difficult but I think its best to play it safe.
On topic. A poor headline and not related to reality. How many people blown to bits? How young? How utterly pointless. Why is it some sort of victory for bombers if we only get back to real campaigning on Friday?
Its not as if this campaign has not been going on for like forever already. Is it asking too much? The election has not been deferred. Democracy has not been cowed. We are decent humane and noble.
Maybe if the depraved became commonplace things would be different. But that would raise a new set of questions.
My friend was on the Underground in March, heading from his workplace in central London. The commuter-time tube was packed and he was standing up down the aisle. He heard what sounded like gunfire coming from a fellow commuter's headphones. Looking down at the guy sat near him, he saw he was watching a violent movie scene on his mobile: a guy being shot in the head. Only on watching for a little while longer did my friend realise it was not Hollywood but in fact real life. The chap was watching Jihadi execution and recruitment videos via WhatsApp, flagrantly on a packed train. What to do?
Pretended to be reading his phone, my friend took pictures of the guy and informed a copper at his tube stop. The copper gave him his email address and asked him to send the details, which obviously he did. A few days later my friend gets a call from Counter Terrorism Police. One of the big questions is: did you note his make of mobile phone? Apparently this is really important in trying to track down suspects.
The CT plod thanked my friend and said something like "we live off these types of tip-offs."
The moral of the long story is: if in doubt, report it.
Fascinating. Yes I would definitely report a guy blatantly and publicly watching ISIS execution and recruitment vids on a train.
My situation is more nuanced, tho. I only have evidence of deeper religiosity, and islamic conservatism. That is significantly different and, prima facie, less alarming. "I do not wish to make windows into men's souls", as Elizabeth I said, in her greatness. Part of what makes England/Britain a marvellous country is that you are free to believe what you like. Just don't impose your beliefs on others.
"Snitching" on this family JUST coz they have become devoutly religious (as far as I can tell) feels wrong. UnBritish.
I'm gonna talk to them. That's unBritish too, but less sneaky. Inshallah they will tell me about their son's recent boozy stag do in Prague, and all will be well.
Sean, You are responsible only for your own actions. If you report, a discreet visit will be made by some member of the "community" on the pretext of cleaning some clothes. A conversation will ensue, in Arabic. Most likely there is nothing to worry about. If he is doing his job well, the shopkeeper will be none the wiser that he has been surveilled. Result, you can sleep easy.
If you don't report, most likely nothing will happen, other than your niggly doubts. But if it did it will haunt you for your days. Money and sex won't rid you of your guilt.
ps. this a very London problem.I leave at least 5 minutes conversation time for each shop I regularly visit!
My friend was on the Underground in March, heading from his workplace in central London. The commuter-time tube was packed and he was standing up down the aisle. He heard what sounded like gunfire coming from a fellow commuter's headphones. Looking down at the guy sat near him, he saw he was watching a violent movie scene on his mobile: a guy being shot in the head. Only on watching for a little while longer did my friend realise it was not Hollywood but in fact real life. The chap was watching Jihadi execution and recruitment videos via WhatsApp, flagrantly on a packed train. What to do?
Pretended to be reading his phone, my friend took pictures of the guy and informed a copper at his tube stop. The copper gave him his email address and asked him to send the details, which obviously he did. A few days later my friend gets a call from Counter Terrorism Police. One of the big questions is: did you note his make of mobile phone? Apparently this is really important in trying to track down suspects.
The CT plod thanked my friend and said something like "we live off these types of tip-offs."
The moral of the long story is: if in doubt, report it.
Fascinating. Yes I would definitely report a guy blatantly and publicly watching ISIS execution and recruitment vids on a train.
My situation is more nuanced, tho. I only have evidence of deeper religiosity, and islamic conservatism. That is significantly different and, prima facie, less alarming. "I do not wish to make windows into men's souls", as Elizabeth I said, in her greatness. Part of what makes England/Britain a marvellous country is that you are free to believe what you like. Just don't impose your beliefs on others.
"Snitching" on this family JUST coz they have become devoutly religious (as far as I can tell) feels wrong. UnBritish.
I'm gonna talk to them. That's unBritish too, but less sneaky. Inshallah they will tell me about their son's recent boozy stag do in Prague, and all will be well.
You must used veiled language of the sort Pinker talks about here around 10:50
Pinker is frighteningly smart. A daunting dinner party neighbour. I reckon if he was sat next to me I'd go on and on about kinky sex, maybe the one, solitary area where he might be less well informed.
Haha I love him but you might have his weak spot there
My friend was on the Underground in March, heading from his workplace in central London. The commuter-time tube was packed and he was standing up down the aisle. He heard what sounded like gunfire coming from a fellow commuter's headphones. Looking down at the guy sat near him, he saw he was watching a violent movie scene on his mobile: a guy being shot in the head. Only on watching for a little while longer did my friend realise it was not Hollywood but in fact real life. The chap was watching Jihadi execution and recruitment videos via WhatsApp, flagrantly on a packed train. What to do?
Pretended to be reading his phone, my friend took pictures of the guy and informed a copper at his tube stop. The copper gave him his email address and asked him to send the details, which obviously he did. A few days later my friend gets a call from Counter Terrorism Police. One of the big questions is: did you note his make of mobile phone? Apparently this is really important in trying to track down suspects.
The CT plod thanked my friend and said something like "we live off these types of tip-offs."
The moral of the long story is: if in doubt, report it.
Fascinating. Yes I would definitely report a guy blatantly and publicly watching ISIS execution and recruitment vids on a train.
My situation is more nuanced, tho. I only have evidence of deeper religiosity, and islamic conservatism. That is significantly different and, prima facie, less alarming. "I do not wish to make windows into men's souls", as Elizabeth I said, in her greatness. Part of what makes England/Britain a marvellous country is that you are free to believe what you like. Just don't impose your beliefs on others.
"Snitching" on this family JUST coz they have become devoutly religious (as far as I can tell) feels wrong. UnBritish.
I'm gonna talk to them. That's unBritish too, but less sneaky. Inshallah they will tell me about their son's recent boozy stag do in Prague, and all will be well.
You must used veiled language of the sort Pinker talks about here around 10:50
On topic. A poor headline and not related to reality. How many people blown to bits? How young? How utterly pointless. Why is it some sort of victory for bombers if we only get back to real campaigning on Friday?
That's one way of looking at it, but others may, and I would, take the view from the other direction - why is it somehow unrealistic, unreasonable or even an affront to those tragically lost to do what we always lie to ourselves and pretend we will do: get on with our lives, despite the tragedy?
My friend was on the Underground in March, heading from his workplace in central London. The commuter-time tube was packed and he was standing up down the aisle. He heard what sounded like gunfire coming from a fellow commuter's headphones. Looking down at the guy sat near him, he saw he was watching a violent movie scene on his mobile: a guy being shot in the head. Only on watching for a little while longer did my friend realise it was not Hollywood but in fact real life. The chap was watching Jihadi execution and recruitment videos via WhatsApp, flagrantly on a packed train. What to do?
Pretended to be reading his phone, my friend took pictures of the guy and informed a copper at his tube stop. The copper gave him his email address and asked him to send the details, which obviously he did. A few days later my friend gets a call from Counter Terrorism Police. One of the big questions is: did you note his make of mobile phone? Apparently this is really important in trying to track down suspects.
The CT plod thanked my friend and said something like "we live off these types of tip-offs."
The moral of the long story is: if in doubt, report it.
Fascinating. Yes I would definitely report a guy blatantly and publicly watching ISIS execution and recruitment vids on a train.
My situation is more nuanced, tho. I only have evidence of deeper religiosity, and islamic conservatism. That is significantly different and, prima facie, less alarming. "I do not wish to make windows into men's souls", as Elizabeth I said, in her greatness. Part of what makes England/Britain a marvellous country is that you are free to believe what you like. Just don't impose your beliefs on others.
"Snitching" on this family JUST coz they have become devoutly religious (as far as I can tell) feels wrong. UnBritish.
I'm gonna talk to them. That's unBritish too, but less sneaky. Inshallah they will tell me about their son's recent boozy stag do in Prague, and all will be well.
You must used veiled language of the sort Pinker talks about here around 10:50
My friend was on the Underground in March, heading from his workplace in central London. The commuter-time tube was packed and he was standing up down the aisle. He heard what sounded like gunfire coming from a fellow commuter's headphones. Looking down at the guy sat near him, he saw he was watching a violent movie scene on his mobile: a guy being shot in the head. Only on watching for a little while longer did my friend realise it was not Hollywood but in fact real life. The chap was watching Jihadi execution and recruitment videos via WhatsApp, flagrantly on a packed train. What to do?
Pretended to be reading his phone, my friend took pictures of the guy and informed a copper at his tube stop. The copper gave him his email address and asked him to send the details, which obviously he did. A few days later my friend gets a call from Counter Terrorism Police. One of the big questions is: did you note his make of mobile phone? Apparently this is really important in trying to track down suspects.
The CT plod thanked my friend and said something like "we live off these types of tip-offs."
The moral of the long story is: if in doubt, report it.
Fascinating. Yes I would definitely report a guy blatantly and publicly watching ISIS execution and recruitment vids on a train.
My situation is more nuanced, tho. I only have evidence of deeper religiosity, and islamic conservatism. That is significantly different and, prima facie, less alarming. "I do not wish to make windows into men's souls", as Elizabeth I said, in her greatness. Part of what makes England/Britain a marvellous country is that you are free to believe what you like. Just don't impose your beliefs on others.
"Snitching" on this family JUST coz they have become devoutly religious (as far as I can tell) feels wrong. UnBritish.
I'm gonna talk to them. That's unBritish too, but less sneaky. Inshallah they will tell me about their son's recent boozy stag do in Prague, and all will be well.
You must used veiled language of the sort Pinker talks about here around 10:50
Comments
You are a human, a social being, a journalist and a novelist. You have every reason to be inquisitive and curious about the fellow human beings in your life, no matter how superficially they are there.
His answers might put your mind at ease, or make the decision to talk to security personnel more clear cut.
PS There are any number of different ways you could do this, if the above approach does not do it for you. You might says, for instance, I notice you are a conservative Muslim, and I am interested on your take on the Manchester attacks and how that event may affect your and your family given your visible signs of Islam
Given that police and intelligence officers are doubtless engaged in a constant game of whac-a-jihadi, played for the highest stakes against many thousands of fanatical enemies, it's probably safe to assume that they've done a remarkable job in foiling every potential mass casualty terror plot for nearly a dozen years.
But I agree with TimT, you could take a friendly interest, maybe ask after his family too, and see how he responds. But he's not really required to, and if he just smiles vaguely it's not evidence either.
SeanT: Hello I would like to report my suspicions of a muslim family please.
Call handeler: OK, go ahead what are your suspicions.
Seant: Well there's this family that own a laundrette, they have become more conservative the son has grown a beard, a really long one. and the daughters are not there anymore, oh and the dad/grandad listens to some really scary sounding Arabic........em I'm really worried about them.....
Callhandler: OK.....em what is the dad/grandad listening to?
SeanT: I'm not sure but it sounds really scary it's really shouty.
Callhandler: OK Thank you for your call, your concerns have been noted. Good bye.
Call the anti-terror hotline if you want to the the police won't pay them a visit but they will be watched for a bit, but we must be careful not to be paranoid.
Give someone else the jigsaw piece you just saw, even if it's tiny. If everyone who sees something that looks wrong does that, then a distrubring picture might emerge. However if the police stick two jigsaw pieces together and can tell it's going to be a boring picture of a Swiss Street in the snow, they will move on,
Trust your instincts, and then trust the authorities to take a view. There are plenty of safeguards for the privacy of the family.
His local imam might get a tip off and be able to find out if anything is going on in his life for instance. I don't know exactly how these things work, but as Sean Fear says better to be safe rather than sorry.
You wouldn't hesitate to comment if a white British family suddenly changed, so why not in this situation?
Here, say in gas stations, I nearly always ask people who are clearly not US-born where there accent is from and then, once they state a country, ask which town. If I've been there, I say so and make some compliment about the place. It's amazing how that opens the door to conversation.
In Africa, it is easy. You just ask them which Premier League team they support. If you know little bit about the London and Merseyside teams, you'll be ok!
2011 YEStoAV
2015 LibDem
2016 Remain
2017 LibDem
Is there anybody who played a leading part in all four running disasters ?
If you are concerned then say so. It will always be on your conscience otherwise.
Perhaps the non-bearded son is the way in.
https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/867465158674796544
Oh wait.
why the change?
was there a trigger?
what other things that you do not see have also changed?
If you report it and it is nothing you have wasted a little bit of someones time-no big deal
If you dont report it and it is something....someones life could be wasted....
The key is you feel the need to ask -that alone says that something to you feels wrong.
Report it.
If he says yes, then call the hotline.
I think they can definitely protect what they are given to protect, I just don't think they could manage to police a match day at a big football game, or a busy train station. They don't have the training for it.
" i wish the public would call us less"
I've met or heard plenty who are utterly F***ed after an incident and who have said-"why the F*** are they telling us NOW that X or Y did this or that and that they had CHANGED"
"why didn't they say something before?"
report it.
Although they are so football mad, I did once watch Crewe Alexandra, live in a pizzeria in Equatorial Guinea....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nottingham_Two
Surely you must have seen other Muslim customers there? If you have, perhaps they share the same observations/concerns as you, and ask them?
If not, then call the hotline, it might be the right thing to do, say if their local mosque has also contacted them as well (like the mosque of the Manc terrorist did) two red flags might do it.
If any Muslim family that I knew had changed like you have said, I'd have concerns too.
Listening to Today this morning i was struck by how his neighbours all seemed to be able to identify an issue that was "different" about him in the run up to the attack-yet it was clear none had called it in.
22 are now dead
For the security services to be really effective , someone somewhere needs to tip them off.
Call it in.
Apart from the big dry cleaning machines, have you observed anything that looks like an oxygen injected furnace in the back of the shop? If you have, call them in.
Alternatively, maybe they're a bit stand-offish because they have to clean the stains from your clothes. Which, I imagine, might be, at best 'haram'.
The thing to do is see if anythings changed the next time you go in after broaching the subject.
I had a "disquiet" about the situation-so i drifted away from him.
I said nothing
In my second year he raped a girl
In truth i wasn't shocked to hear he did it.
The fact you have raised the question means you have doubts-call it in
90% chance it is nothing.
But that is someone elses call -not yours.
Sometimes we find some deep truths and insights through our stories. Factual or not often doesn't matter.
(How is your wife? I hope she is doing well).
https://www.ifs.org.uk/events/1481
My friend was on the Underground in March, heading from his workplace in central London. The commuter-time tube was packed and he was standing up down the aisle. He heard what sounded like gunfire coming from a fellow commuter's headphones. Looking down at the guy sat near him, he saw he was watching a violent movie scene on his mobile: a guy being shot in the head. Only on watching for a little while longer did my friend realise it was not Hollywood but in fact real life. The chap was watching Jihadi execution and recruitment videos via WhatsApp, flagrantly on a packed train. What to do?
Pretended to be reading his phone, my friend took pictures of the guy and informed a copper at his tube stop. The copper gave him his email address and asked him to send the details, which obviously he did. A few days later my friend gets a call from Counter Terrorism Police. One of the big questions is: did you note his make of mobile phone? Apparently this is really important in trying to track down suspects.
The CT plod thanked my friend and said something like "we live off these types of tip-offs."
The moral of the long story is: if in doubt, report it.
https://youtu.be/LjQM8PzCEY0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VDvgL58h_Y
(video is actually a bit too long, but that is kind of the point)
A poor headline and not related to reality.
How many people blown to bits? How young? How utterly pointless. Why is it some sort of victory for bombers if we only get back to real campaigning on Friday?
Its not as if this campaign has not been going on for like forever already. Is it asking too much? The election has not been deferred. Democracy has not been cowed. We are decent humane and noble.
Maybe if the depraved became commonplace things would be different. But that would raise a new set of questions.
You are responsible only for your own actions. If you report, a discreet visit will be made by some member of the "community" on the pretext of cleaning some clothes. A conversation will ensue, in Arabic. Most likely there is nothing to worry about. If he is doing his job well, the shopkeeper will be none the wiser that he has been surveilled. Result, you can sleep easy.
If you don't report, most likely nothing will happen, other than your niggly doubts. But if it did it will haunt you for your days. Money and sex won't rid you of your guilt.
ps. this a very London problem.I leave at least 5 minutes conversation time for each shop I regularly visit!
Must say respect to the Mosque and others in muslim community who reported him.
Thoughts on Sids garb at 6:13?
https://youtu.be/LfrOZj6EBRI
It surely wouldn't be, therefore best to proceed.
Clever people swearing is funny
https://youtu.be/1BcdY_wSklo