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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Punters move against Trump on the “will he survive ” markets

SystemSystem Posts: 11,686
edited May 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Punters move against Trump on the “will he survive ” markets

Analysis | Trump's careening toward an inevitable showdown with an undeniable truth https://t.co/3idPwpv94X

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  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    First :smiley:
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    When this was posted yesterday, it was suggested it was a negative outcome for the UK.

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/may/16/uk-brexit-boost-ecj-rules-trade-deals-parliament-ratification
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,687
    edited May 2017
    RobD said:

    When this was posted yesterday, it was suggested it was a negative outcome for the UK.

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/may/16/uk-brexit-boost-ecj-rules-trade-deals-parliament-ratification

    It's a bit like the SNP and how everything is a Victory for Eck! Nicola, just with Brexit everything is a DISASTER for Britain......until the facts become known...
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,687
    edited May 2017
    Isn't the latest defence from the Trump team 'he's too lazy/thick/ignorant/ill-informed (delete any or none as appropriate) to have done any real damage?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,687
    RobD said:

    When this was posted yesterday, it was suggested it was a negative outcome for the UK.

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/may/16/uk-brexit-boost-ecj-rules-trade-deals-parliament-ratification

    The Times - before the ruling:

    The European Court of Justice (ECJ) is set to pave the way for a hard Brexit by handing 38 national and regional parliaments the power to veto trade deals.

    In a move that further clouds the prospects of a swift and comprehensive UK-EU deal, the European Union’s highest court is expected to extend the veto rights to regional parliaments through a ruling on the EU’s 2014 trade agreement with Singapore.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/eu-court-threatens-brexit-trade-deals-vbkxvbccc
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Just seen Burgon's lamentable performance on Newsnight. What is it with the Labour media team that means they can't prepare their shadow ministers for set piece interviews.

    It is not as if Kirsty Wark was asking really tough questions.

    The 'fully costed' line has comprehensively unravelled in a matter of hours. It is almost as if they aren't trying to be credible.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,687

    Just seen Burgon's lamentable performance on Newsnight. What is it with the Labour media team that means they can't prepare their shadow ministers for set piece interviews.

    It is not as if Kirsty Wark was asking really tough questions.

    The 'fully costed' line has comprehensively unravelled in a matter of hours. It is almost as if they aren't trying to be credible.

    It's not just the spokespeople - they clearly haven't thought through a lot of the stuff - 'we will make clear details in next three weeks' - when asked if a second year student would pay fees....I've got a hunch we'll never know the details.....he was in full 'infamy, infamy, you've got it in for me' rant mode....
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    The attempts to portray the Left as the victims of a media witch-hunt are getting very tiresome.

    If you put out inaccurate and under prepared policy statements and then can't deal with straightforward questions, it is inevitable that the press will treat you with a certain amount of disbelief.

    The media, for all of their many faults, can hardly be blamed for asking questions that shadow ministers can't answer
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,288
    edited May 2017
    Reading between the lines the answer is that the nationalisations of National Grid, Royal Mail and the water companies are aspirations - there is no timetable - they are certainly not things that would be done in the early years of a Labour Government.

    If they are ever done, they would be funded 100% through borrowing - as they would be deemed "capital investment".

    Thus they are completely outside the spending and tax commitments detailed in the manifesto - which relate to ongoing annual tax and spend - not capital transactions.

    Seems surprising they didn't just say that - whatever you think of the idea it would be a simple and easy thing to say which would close the subject down.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,288
    edited May 2017
    One other bizarre thing is the confusion on the benefits freeze - looks like they just completely forgot that.

    When questioned on it, Corbyn started talking about the benefits cap - ie the £23k limit (or £20k outside London). And he referred to spending £2bn.

    But the benefits freeze is a completely different matter - the vast majority of benefits - eg tax credits, child benefit etc are frozen in cash terms.

    With inflation now nearly 3% this is a very big real terms cut and the freeze is currently scheduled until 2020.

    To get rid of the freeze would cost far, far more than £2bn (it was by far the biggest component of Cameron's £12bn welfare cuts) - it's a very big item - and it seems extraordinary that Labour just forgot about it.

    If you want to bribe people I would have thought it would have been one of their absolute top priorities - surely far more important than tuition fees - it affects far, far more people - and it would be more cash in their pockets right now.
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    I did hear someone say that as the nationalisations would be paid for by borrowing then it would not cost anything. I can't remember which shadow ministers said it, but I certainly heard that line being used.

    As far as I recall, we do have to repay our loans and all the interest so it really isn't free money. We do have to pay.

    But the twisted thinking on display seems to show that the Shadow team really does believe that the international lenders will just give us money for nothing.

    With such statements on the public record, there will be some very unemployable former MPs in just over 3 weeks time. Who on earth would give such people real jobs?
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    GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    I strongly suspect that Labour propose to nationalise the various industries without payment or compensation, but they dare not say it.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,687
    First the Orange Order....now this.....

    https://twitter.com/CrapLocalNews/status/864166083443425280
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,629

    The attempts to portray the Left as the victims of a media witch-hunt are getting very tiresome.

    If you put out inaccurate and under prepared policy statements and then can't deal with straightforward questions, it is inevitable that the press will treat you with a certain amount of disbelief.

    The media, for all of their many faults, can hardly be blamed for asking questions that shadow ministers can't answer

    A strangely similar attitude to that of Trump.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Morning all.

    Oh dear, another humiliating outing for Diane Abbott at yesterday’s Police Federation conference. Whose turn will it be today I wonder...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4512938/Robert-Hardman-humiliation-Diane-Abbott.html
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,629

    I did hear someone say that as the nationalisations would be paid for by borrowing then it would not cost anything. I can't remember which shadow ministers said it, but I certainly heard that line being used.

    As far as I recall, we do have to repay our loans and all the interest so it really isn't free money. We do have to pay.

    But the twisted thinking on display seems to show that the Shadow team really does believe that the international lenders will just give us money for nothing.

    With such statements on the public record, there will be some very unemployable former MPs in just over 3 weeks time. Who on earth would give such people real jobs?

    Actually, this is one bit of their policies one might make a decent case for.
    Currently the government can borrow at extremely low rates. The return on capital in (say) the water companies is way in excess of government borrowing costs.
    If the government is holding an asset yielding more than the cost of borrowing which paid for it, there is no immediate need to repay the debt. Of course the debt, if not repaid, will in due course have to be refinanced, and if we actually experienced a Corbyn government the cost of that financing would almost certainly not stay as low as it is now.

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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Gadfly said:

    I strongly suspect that Labour propose to nationalise the various industries without payment or compensation, but they dare not say it.

    This article explains the nationalisation neatly and why the 'cost' isn't such a big deal:
    www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-labour-manifesto-renationalisation-rail-energy-banks-europe-a7731961.html%3Famp
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Nigelb said:

    I did hear someone say that as the nationalisations would be paid for by borrowing then it would not cost anything. I can't remember which shadow ministers said it, but I certainly heard that line being used.

    As far as I recall, we do have to repay our loans and all the interest so it really isn't free money. We do have to pay.

    But the twisted thinking on display seems to show that the Shadow team really does believe that the international lenders will just give us money for nothing.

    With such statements on the public record, there will be some very unemployable former MPs in just over 3 weeks time. Who on earth would give such people real jobs?

    Actually, this is one bit of their policies one might make a decent case for.
    Currently the government can borrow at extremely low rates. The return on capital in (say) the water companies is way in excess of government borrowing costs.
    If the government is holding an asset yielding more than the cost of borrowing which paid for it, there is no immediate need to repay the debt. Of course the debt, if not repaid, will in due course have to be refinanced, and if we actually experienced a Corbyn government the cost of that financing would almost certainly not stay as low as it is now.

    The return on capital is dependent on decent management and continued revenue streams. It is hard to be absolutely confident that a Corbyn administration could manage this massive industries in a way that would provide that stability.

    The money markets would be hard to please in the advent of a Corbyn win and so it is hard to believe that they would secure long term finance deals at current rates.

    I (and I suspect many others) find it hard to believe that a Corbyn government could run an economic plan along the lines they are attempting to set out and to actually make it work in the real world.

    Given how much Corbyn admires the Chavez way of running a country in your the ground, there is no real expectation that he would avoid plunging us into a similarly catastrophic decline.

    Thankfully it won't happen but it is scary to have the main opposition party peddling such flawed economic thinking.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,360
    I am starting to question Trump's staying power as well now.

    Still, it requires the Republicans to move against him in force for him to go. But, if they do, it will happen very quickly.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,031
    rkrkrk said:

    Gadfly said:

    I strongly suspect that Labour propose to nationalise the various industries without payment or compensation, but they dare not say it.

    This article explains the nationalisation neatly and why the 'cost' isn't such a big deal:
    www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-labour-manifesto-renationalisation-rail-energy-banks-europe-a7731961.html%3Famp
    Hmmmm.

    1) I am far from convinced that rail is a natural monopoly. It has plenty of competition from bus, coach, truck, ship and plane. It may be for commuters in some situations, but that's far from the entirety of rail.

    2) "Assuming it doesn’t overpay, the cost to the state of buying back, for instance, the Royal Mail or the National Grid will be balanced by the flow of future net revenues from those businesses."

    I think assuming the Royal Mail will be generating net revenues in ten years' time is optimistic, to say the least.

    My view: nationalisation and privatisation are tools. You use the best tool for the job, and you don't use a screwdriver to hammer in a nail just because you like screwdrivers. But the best tool of all, and the one politicians rarely use, is the do-nothing tool.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,360
    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes


    If Skinner loses, its Armageddon time.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Labour turnout klaxon: why ICM may be right when they keep weighting the red team down into the 20s...

    http://elections.newstatesman.com/the-650/profile-of-a-landslide-where-the-tories-are-gaining-and-labour-losing/

    "New analysis by Populus reveals the Tories are making real progress in Labour’s heartlands and cannibalising Ukip’s support – while the opposition’s support is concentrated among those less likely to turn out."


    Basically, the Tories stack up support in seats where it matters, are popular with older voters, but also - crucially - their support is buoyed by a lot of Ukip voters, whereas Labour is reliant to a proportionately similar extent on previous non-voters. The suggestion is that a substantial cohort of those who claim they will vote Labour - young voters and previous non-voters - won't bother to vote on the day (whereas more reliable Ukippers and especially the old will go and vote Conservative.)
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,721
    Can we let Plato back in, so she can tell us how this is in fact a clever move by Trump.
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    daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    On topic: isn't the big issue that Trump correctly doesn't perceive Russia as the number one enemy of the USA, whereas the Washington establishment hasn't moved on from the Cold War mindset? In my opinion, Islamism (promoted by Saudi Arabia) is a much greater threat to Europe (including the UK and Russia) and the USA, so what is wrong with sharing confidential information about ISIL with Russia?
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    edited May 2017

    Labour turnout klaxon: why ICM may be right when they keep weighting the red team down into the 20s...

    http://elections.newstatesman.com/the-650/profile-of-a-landslide-where-the-tories-are-gaining-and-labour-losing/

    "New analysis by Populus reveals the Tories are making real progress in Labour’s heartlands and cannibalising Ukip’s support – while the opposition’s support is concentrated among those less likely to turn out."


    Basically, the Tories stack up support in seats where it matters, are popular with older voters, but also - crucially - their support is buoyed by a lot of Ukip voters, whereas Labour is reliant to a proportionately similar extent on previous non-voters. The suggestion is that a substantial cohort of those who claim they will vote Labour - young voters and previous non-voters - won't bother to vote on the day (whereas more reliable Ukippers and especially the old will go and vote Conservative.)

    It doesn't matter because failure is the new success:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39944331
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    MikeL said:

    Reading between the lines the answer is that the nationalisations of National Grid, Royal Mail and the water companies are aspirations - there is no timetable - they are certainly not things that would be done in the early years of a Labour Government.

    If they are ever done, they would be funded 100% through borrowing - as they would be deemed "capital investment".

    Thus they are completely outside the spending and tax commitments detailed in the manifesto - which relate to ongoing annual tax and spend - not capital transactions.

    Seems surprising they didn't just say that - whatever you think of the idea it would be a simple and easy thing to say which would close the subject down.

    The trouble is, to the ordinary voter "funded 100% through borrowing as they would be deemed "capital investment"" means "unfunded pledge".
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    rkrkrk said:

    Gadfly said:

    I strongly suspect that Labour propose to nationalise the various industries without payment or compensation, but they dare not say it.

    This article explains the nationalisation neatly and why the 'cost' isn't such a big deal:
    www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-labour-manifesto-renationalisation-rail-energy-banks-europe-a7731961.html%3Famp
    Hmmmm.

    1) I am far from convinced that rail is a natural monopoly. It has plenty of competition from bus, coach, truck, ship and plane. It may be for commuters in some situations, but that's far from the entirety of rail.

    2) "Assuming it doesn’t overpay, the cost to the state of buying back, for instance, the Royal Mail or the National Grid will be balanced by the flow of future net revenues from those businesses."

    I think assuming the Royal Mail will be generating net revenues in ten years' time is optimistic, to say the least.

    My view: nationalisation and privatisation are tools. You use the best tool for the job, and you don't use a screwdriver to hammer in a nail just because you like screwdrivers. But the best tool of all, and the one politicians rarely use, is the do-nothing tool.
    I think your view is very similar to the author of the article...

    "The key question, from a public policy perspective, is whether the business assets are likely to be run more efficiently in the interests of the public in one form of ownership than the other.... These ought to be empirical questions, informed by analysis, evidence (including from abroad) and judgement. Yet for much of the British media and political classes it is, alas, a matter of ideology."
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Move away Theresa, move away slowly. You can get away with your precipitous embrace of the dishonest, untrustworthy Trump regime and get away with it because you have no opposition and people are not thinking about how foolish you were to offer him the Year One state visit never previously offered to any US president. Lucky, lucky you.
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes

    Seeing Skinner lose would be like Portillo and Balls raised to the power of 10. The Beast of Bolsover felled by a Tory would be such a defining moment. I can't believe it will happen but it would be delicious if it did.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    I did hear someone say that as the nationalisations would be paid for by borrowing then it would not cost anything. I can't remember which shadow ministers said it, but I certainly heard that line being used.

    As far as I recall, we do have to repay our loans and all the interest so it really isn't free money. We do have to pay.

    But the twisted thinking on display seems to show that the Shadow team really does believe that the international lenders will just give us money for nothing.

    With such statements on the public record, there will be some very unemployable former MPs in just over 3 weeks time. Who on earth would give such people real jobs?

    Actually, this is one bit of their policies one might make a decent case for.
    Currently the government can borrow at extremely low rates. The return on capital in (say) the water companies is way in excess of government borrowing costs.
    If the government is holding an asset yielding more than the cost of borrowing which paid for it, there is no immediate need to repay the debt. Of course the debt, if not repaid, will in due course have to be refinanced, and if we actually experienced a Corbyn government the cost of that financing would almost certainly not stay as low as it is now.

    Assumptions:

    1. Underlying Returns are sustainable long term
    2. The government can run the business as efficiently as private owners
    3. There is no political interference in the business
    4. There will be sufficient capital available to make rational investments in maintenance and expansion
    5. There is no effective cap on government borrowing
    6. If such borrowing is available there are no better uses for it that would generate a higher social return
    7. There is no impact on overall borrowing costs of the extra borrowing
    8. There is no impact on the capital markets of nationalisation
    9. Pension funds who buy infrastructure assets (encouraged by government) to match their longevity risk are able to find sufficient suitable investment opportunities without diluting their returns (and hence people's pensions)

    All of these points are arguable
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    There is, as my colleague David Brooks wrote Tuesday, a basic childishness to the man who now occupies the presidency. That is the simplest way of understanding what has come tumbling into light in the last few days: The presidency now has kinglike qualities, and we have a child upon the throne.

    It is a child who blurts out classified information in order to impress distinguished visitors. It is a child who asks the head of the F.B.I. why the rules cannot be suspended for his friend and ally. It is a child who does not understand the obvious consequences of his more vindictive actions — like firing the very same man whom you had asked to potentially obstruct justice on your say-so.

    A child cannot be president. I love my children; they cannot have the nuclear codes.


    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/16/opinion/25th-amendment-trump.html
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    Move away Theresa, move away slowly. You can get away with your precipitous embrace of the dishonest, untrustworthy Trump regime and get away with it because you have no opposition and people are not thinking about how foolish you were to offer him the Year One state visit never previously offered to any US president. Lucky, lucky you.

    Are you going to start every day with a post like this from now on?
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes

    While I think it will be a total bloodbath for Labour across the Midlands, I think both Watson and Skinner probably have enough visibility in their constituencies to make it through to the other side of 8th June alive. The source here is not entirely reliable or disinterested.

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Can we let Plato back in, so she can tell us how this is in fact a clever move by Trump.

    Fixed it for you
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Morning all.

    Oh dear, another humiliating outing for Diane Abbott at yesterday’s Police Federation conference. Whose turn will it be today I wonder...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4512938/Robert-Hardman-humiliation-Diane-Abbott.html

    That really is well just , I don't know what the words are to describe it. Car crash is too simple, its so terrible its well.. I just don't know. Never have I seen or heard something so dreadful from a politician.

    People need to read the report and watch the video.. I mean ...Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,264
    edited May 2017

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes

    I have also been saying Watson is in danger for weeks! In fact, I'd be more concerned if they thought he was safe given what that would imply about their canvassing and data analysis.

    Bolsover is now very much an ex-mining constituency that's been quietly drifting Tory for years - their vote is pretty well steady as the Labour vote has declined sharply. Moreover it has a big UKIP vote and Skinner is getting very old. Again, that's one that Labour certainly should be treating as 'at risk' and I don't think its loss would signify Armageddon. Differential turnout might be the killer punch there.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    RobD said:

    Move away Theresa, move away slowly. You can get away with your precipitous embrace of the dishonest, untrustworthy Trump regime and get away with it because you have no opposition and people are not thinking about how foolish you were to offer him the Year One state visit never previously offered to any US president. Lucky, lucky you.

    Are you going to start every day with a post like this from now on?

    Everyday more emerges to demonstrate just how foolish a decision it was. What is absolutely clear now is that cuddling close to Trump is not in the UK's interests and will not secure us any privileges. Hopefully, there is a way the state visit can be delayed or even put off.

  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes

    While I think it will be a total bloodbath for Labour across the Midlands, I think both Watson and Skinner probably have enough visibility in their constituencies to make it through to the other side of 8th June alive. The source here is not entirely reliable or disinterested.

    How much organisation does Dennis have. its been Labour forever He's been the MP since 1970 ffs.. is the organisation there.. could it be like Labour in Scotland
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes

    While I think it will be a total bloodbath for Labour across the Midlands, I think both Watson and Skinner probably have enough visibility in their constituencies to make it through to the other side of 8th June alive. The source here is not entirely reliable or disinterested.

    Skinner at 85 really should have had the grace to step down. Even if he gets reelected, the odds must be on a Bolsover by election before 2022.

    I must admit that I do favour a retirement age for all parliamentarians (and other elected types). 75 would seem a reasonable age to fight your last election, maybe even 70. The days of the parliamentary dinosaurs should really be over.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,264

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes

    While I think it will be a total bloodbath for Labour across the Midlands, I think both Watson and Skinner probably have enough visibility in their constituencies to make it through to the other side of 8th June alive. The source here is not entirely reliable or disinterested.

    They are very much Marmite candidates - and I think more people loathe them than love them now.

    Watson in particular is hated by the right (because he's basically not a very nice person) by the left (because he's behind most of the briefings against Corbyn) and regarded with distrust by the centre (as the key Brownite attack dog). If he is campaigning on his high profile and personal popularity he's taking an absolutely enormous risk.

    Skinner does however have a track record of nearly 50 years of good service as an MP to fall back on. Whether that will be enough is another question.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,462
    This latest Trump 'scandal' is horseshit. He told the Russians something about ISIS - um, and?

    The only scandal I can see is the organised campaign to remove an elected President. It should terrify everyone on this board of any political stripe.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Sorry to have missed the latest Corbyn thread last night.

    What I would have said is that the far left's basic problem is that it actually does not control the Labour party. If it did, Corbyn would definitely step down on 9th June and an orderly succession would be organised. The treality, though, is that for as long as the Labour leadership rules stand as they are, Corbyn is going to be the last far left Labour leader and if he goes the far left is going to be expunged from the party. That is why he will not step down and why he will fight any leadership challenge.

    The fact that McCluskey set a 200 seat threshold is notable. Champagne Len may be many things, but he is no fool. He knows that Labour will not get 200 seats. He also knows that the far left has lost control of his union executive.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    RobD said:

    Move away Theresa, move away slowly. You can get away with your precipitous embrace of the dishonest, untrustworthy Trump regime and get away with it because you have no opposition and people are not thinking about how foolish you were to offer him the Year One state visit never previously offered to any US president. Lucky, lucky you.

    Are you going to start every day with a post like this from now on?

    Everyday more emerges to demonstrate just how foolish a decision it was. What is absolutely clear now is that cuddling close to Trump is not in the UK's interests and will not secure us any privileges. Hopefully, there is a way the state visit can be delayed or even put off.

    There is plenty of scope for delay, I am sure that HM can find excuses for delay. Trump also has bigger fish to fry.

    I am beginning to think there is some truth to tbe rumours that Trump is losing his mental clarity, and these are not so much lies as confabulating. Look back at his interviews of 10 years ago and compare with current ramblings.

    Looking at the timescales for exit, 2018 looks more realistic than 2017. American processes move slowly.
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    ydoethur said:

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes

    While I think it will be a total bloodbath for Labour across the Midlands, I think both Watson and Skinner probably have enough visibility in their constituencies to make it through to the other side of 8th June alive. The source here is not entirely reliable or disinterested.

    They are very much Marmite candidates - and I think more people loathe them than love them now.

    Watson in particular is hated by the right (because he's basically not a very nice person) by the left (because he's behind most of the briefings against Corbyn) and regarded with distrust by the centre (as the key Brownite attack dog). If he is campaigning on his high profile and personal popularity he's taking an absolutely enormous risk.

    Skinner does however have a track record of nearly 50 years of good service as an MP to fall back on. Whether that will be enough is another question.
    In the modern age, any MP should be engaging with their constituents via email. Skinner's declaration that he has never sent an email is not a badge of honour. It is systematic of a man who has refused to change his thinking in decades.

    How has life in Bolsover been improved as a direct result of his nearly 50 years of being awkward?
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,721
    Charles said:

    Can we let Plato back in, so she can tell us how this is in fact a clever move by Trump.

    Fixed it for you
    You're right we've got LuckyGuy - unless you're a Trump supporter too?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,360

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes

    Seeing Skinner lose would be like Portillo and Balls raised to the power of 10. The Beast of Bolsover felled by a Tory would be such a defining moment. I can't believe it will happen but it would be delicious if it did.
    It might. Con + UKIP is 45% in his constituency and he's only on 51%.

    I doubt he's out pounding the streets at his age and, even if he did, he hates the Tories too much to fight them properly.

    If he does lose, I expect his speech to be more David Mellor than Portillo or Balls.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,264

    I am beginning to think there is some truth to tbe rumours that Trump is losing his mental clarity, and these are not so much lies as confabulating. Look back at his interviews of 10 years ago and compare with current ramblings.

    I'm wondering if something similar is happening to Abbott. Admittedly, I never rated her, but the last few weeks have been far beyond any blunder or ineptitude she's come up with before.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,307
    MikeL said:

    Reading between the lines the answer is that the nationalisations of National Grid, Royal Mail and the water companies are aspirations - there is no timetable - they are certainly not things that would be done in the early years of a Labour Government.

    If they are ever done, they would be funded 100% through borrowing - as they would be deemed "capital investment".

    Thus they are completely outside the spending and tax commitments detailed in the manifesto - which relate to ongoing annual tax and spend - not capital transactions.

    Seems surprising they didn't just say that - whatever you think of the idea it would be a simple and easy thing to say which would close the subject down.

    The problem with that is that that borrowing itself has budgetary implications in terms of future interest payments and these are ignored as well. Plus the complete failure to address the current deficit. Plus the almost child like ignoring of secondary effects such as changes of behaviour or tax domicile if rates are doubled. Plus some pretty heroic assumptions about what their new taxes will bring in. Plus the awkward fact that reducing CT has actually increased the take suggesting increasing it may have negative effects. Plus equally heroic assumptions about what their proposed policies will cost. Its fish in a barrel time for even the most modestly numerate journalist.

    It used to be claimed that John McDonnell was the smart one of the 2 and the more dangerous. After yesterday he only looks dangerous to his own side.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,462

    Charles said:

    Can we let Plato back in, so she can tell us how this is in fact a clever move by Trump.

    Fixed it for you
    You're right we've got LuckyGuy - unless you're a Trump supporter too?
    I'm not a Trump supporter. However I'm also not a useful idiot cheering from the sidelines as democracy gets the shit kicked out of it by state actors in the world's most powerful country, because people dared to elect someone not to their liking.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Can we let Plato back in, so she can tell us how this is in fact a clever move by Trump.

    Fixed it for you
    You're right we've got LuckyGuy - unless you're a Trump supporter too?
    No, I just dislike snide comments being made behind someone's back.

    The excuse given ("the rubbish she posts misleads bettors") is daft - people can filter themselves if they wish
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,687

    RobD said:

    Move away Theresa, move away slowly. You can get away with your precipitous embrace of the dishonest, untrustworthy Trump regime and get away with it because you have no opposition and people are not thinking about how foolish you were to offer him the Year One state visit never previously offered to any US president. Lucky, lucky you.

    Are you going to start every day with a post like this from now on?

    Everyday more emerges to demonstrate just how foolish a decision it was. What is absolutely clear now is that cuddling close to Trump is not in the UK's interests and will not secure us any privileges. Hopefully, there is a way the state visit can be delayed or even put off.

    A whole series of foreign trips have been announced for Trump but not yet the state visit - speculation in the Mail is that no announcement will be made until after the GE. I do think you are over personalising it - as with all state visits, the invitee is the office, not the person.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,264

    ydoethur said:

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes

    While I think it will be a total bloodbath for Labour across the Midlands, I think both Watson and Skinner probably have enough visibility in their constituencies to make it through to the other side of 8th June alive. The source here is not entirely reliable or disinterested.

    They are very much Marmite candidates - and I think more people loathe them than love them now.

    Watson in particular is hated by the right (because he's basically not a very nice person) by the left (because he's behind most of the briefings against Corbyn) and regarded with distrust by the centre (as the key Brownite attack dog). If he is campaigning on his high profile and personal popularity he's taking an absolutely enormous risk.

    Skinner does however have a track record of nearly 50 years of good service as an MP to fall back on. Whether that will be enough is another question.
    In the modern age, any MP should be engaging with their constituents via email. Skinner's declaration that he has never sent an email is not a badge of honour. It is systematic of a man who has refused to change his thinking in decades.

    How has life in Bolsover been improved as a direct result of his nearly 50 years of being awkward?
    All the mines have shut so the air is clean and people don't die of lung disease any more?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,360
    ydoethur said:

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes

    While I think it will be a total bloodbath for Labour across the Midlands, I think both Watson and Skinner probably have enough visibility in their constituencies to make it through to the other side of 8th June alive. The source here is not entirely reliable or disinterested.

    They are very much Marmite candidates - and I think more people loathe them than love them now.

    Watson in particular is hated by the right (because he's basically not a very nice person) by the left (because he's behind most of the briefings against Corbyn) and regarded with distrust by the centre (as the key Brownite attack dog). If he is campaigning on his high profile and personal popularity he's taking an absolutely enormous risk.

    Skinner does however have a track record of nearly 50 years of good service as an MP to fall back on. Whether that will be enough is another question.
    Titans never look like they will fall.

    Until they do.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,264

    Scott_P said:
    6% for SNP? Higher than they got in 2015!
    If the SNP get 6% then it's game over for the UK.
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes

    While I think it will be a total bloodbath for Labour across the Midlands, I think both Watson and Skinner probably have enough visibility in their constituencies to make it through to the other side of 8th June alive. The source here is not entirely reliable or disinterested.

    They are very much Marmite candidates - and I think more people loathe them than love them now.

    Watson in particular is hated by the right (because he's basically not a very nice person) by the left (because he's behind most of the briefings against Corbyn) and regarded with distrust by the centre (as the key Brownite attack dog). If he is campaigning on his high profile and personal popularity he's taking an absolutely enormous risk.

    Skinner does however have a track record of nearly 50 years of good service as an MP to fall back on. Whether that will be enough is another question.
    In the modern age, any MP should be engaging with their constituents via email. Skinner's declaration that he has never sent an email is not a badge of honour. It is systematic of a man who has refused to change his thinking in decades.

    How has life in Bolsover been improved as a direct result of his nearly 50 years of being awkward?
    All the mines have shut so the air is clean and people don't die of lung disease any more?
    I doubt he will using that line on his leaflets!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Charles said:

    Can we let Plato back in, so she can tell us how this is in fact a clever move by Trump.

    Fixed it for you
    You're right we've got LuckyGuy - unless you're a Trump supporter too?
    I'm not a Trump supporter. However I'm also not a useful idiot cheering from the sidelines as democracy gets the shit kicked out of it by state actors in the world's most powerful country, because people dared to elect someone not to their liking.
    Trump is inviting his own kicking by being witlessly incompetent.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    ydoethur said:

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes

    While I think it will be a total bloodbath for Labour across the Midlands, I think both Watson and Skinner probably have enough visibility in their constituencies to make it through to the other side of 8th June alive. The source here is not entirely reliable or disinterested.

    They are very much Marmite candidates - and I think more people loathe them than love them now.

    Watson in particular is hated by the right (because he's basically not a very nice person) by the left (because he's behind most of the briefings against Corbyn) and regarded with distrust by the centre (as the key Brownite attack dog). If he is campaigning on his high profile and personal popularity he's taking an absolutely enormous risk.

    Skinner does however have a track record of nearly 50 years of good service as an MP to fall back on. Whether that will be enough is another question.

    I am not sure that the right's hatred of Watson is down to him not being a nice person. I think there may be a bit more to it than that!! If the right just made its decisions based on likeability an awful lot of right wing politicians would not hold the positions they do.

    My guess is that most voters in Bolsover and West Bromwich do not hold strong views about their MPs. In that, they would be like most other constituents in most other constituencies. What Watson and Skinner both have, though, is name recognition. That could swing it for them. And in Watson's case, his profile is very much anti-Corbyn - which may also be a help in holding onto voters who might otherwise be tempted to vote against the Labour leader.

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/ncpoliticsuk/status/864725442502287360

    That is weirdly high for the SNP
    They do hit 6 every now and again.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    Charles said:

    Can we let Plato back in, so she can tell us how this is in fact a clever move by Trump.

    Fixed it for you
    You're right we've got LuckyGuy - unless you're a Trump supporter too?
    I'm not a Trump supporter. However I'm also not a useful idiot cheering from the sidelines as democracy gets the shit kicked out of it by state actors in the world's most powerful country, because people dared to elect someone not to their liking.
    Trump is inviting his own kicking by being witlessly incompetent.

    And serially dishonest. He cannot be trusted.

  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    And serially dishonest. He cannot be trusted.

    https://twitter.com/milbank/status/864442044940517376
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    ydoethur said:

    I am beginning to think there is some truth to tbe rumours that Trump is losing his mental clarity, and these are not so much lies as confabulating. Look back at his interviews of 10 years ago and compare with current ramblings.

    I'm wondering if something similar is happening to Abbott. Admittedly, I never rated her, but the last few weeks have been far beyond any blunder or ineptitude she's come up with before.

    Nah - she is just being found out. She has never had to advocate policy positions before or put forward any coherent ideas. It turns out she cannot do it.

  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    RobD said:
    12 days of fieldwork for an online poll? Is that right?

    The line that the reporter has chosen to take is amusing, too.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,264

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes

    While I think it will be a total bloodbath for Labour across the Midlands, I think both Watson and Skinner probably have enough visibility in their constituencies to make it through to the other side of 8th June alive. The source here is not entirely reliable or disinterested.

    They are very much Marmite candidates - and I think more people loathe them than love them now.

    Watson in particular is hated by the right (because he's basically not a very nice person) by the left (because he's behind most of the briefings against Corbyn) and regarded with distrust by the centre (as the key Brownite attack dog). If he is campaigning on his high profile and personal popularity he's taking an absolutely enormous risk.

    Skinner does however have a track record of nearly 50 years of good service as an MP to fall back on. Whether that will be enough is another question.
    In the modern age, any MP should be engaging with their constituents via email. Skinner's declaration that he has never sent an email is not a badge of honour. It is systematic of a man who has refused to change his thinking in decades.

    How has life in Bolsover been improved as a direct result of his nearly 50 years of being awkward?
    All the mines have shut so the air is clean and people don't die of lung disease any more?
    I doubt he will using that line on his leaflets!
    Somehow I don't either, but it is ironic to reflect on that isn't it? American historian Gerard DeGroot said he found the conservatism of the British union movement truly bewildering. He couldn't understand why Scargill wanted 'the sons of miners to be miners' - it was a terrible life, poorly paid, dirty, dangerous and in dreadful conditions. Surely, he mused, anyone would want something better than that for their children?

    Yet it still remains totemic in certain places.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/ncpoliticsuk/status/864725442502287360

    That is weirdly high for the SNP
    They do hit 6 every now and again.
    They shouldn't do if they're really in the low forties.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited May 2017
    ydoethur said:

    If the SNP get 6% then it's game over for the UK.

    Except for turnip entrepreneurs ....
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    edited May 2017
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/ncpoliticsuk/status/864725442502287360

    That is weirdly high for the SNP
    They do hit 6 every now and again.
    They shouldn't do if they're really in the low forties.
    MoE on 3-6%?
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,360

    ydoethur said:

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes

    While I think it will be a total bloodbath for Labour across the Midlands, I think both Watson and Skinner probably have enough visibility in their constituencies to make it through to the other side of 8th June alive. The source here is not entirely reliable or disinterested.

    They are very much Marmite candidates - and I think more people loathe them than love them now.

    Watson in particular is hated by the right (because he's basically not a very nice person) by the left (because he's behind most of the briefings against Corbyn) and regarded with distrust by the centre (as the key Brownite attack dog). If he is campaigning on his high profile and personal popularity he's taking an absolutely enormous risk.

    Skinner does however have a track record of nearly 50 years of good service as an MP to fall back on. Whether that will be enough is another question.

    I am not sure that the right's hatred of Watson is down to him not being a nice person. I think there may be a bit more to it than that!! If the right just made its decisions based on likeability an awful lot of right wing politicians would not hold the positions they do.

    My guess is that most voters in Bolsover and West Bromwich do not hold strong views about their MPs. In that, they would be like most other constituents in most other constituencies. What Watson and Skinner both have, though, is name recognition. That could swing it for them. And in Watson's case, his profile is very much anti-Corbyn - which may also be a help in holding onto voters who might otherwise be tempted to vote against the Labour leader.

    I doubt more than a handful of voters know he's anti Corbyn.

    Which wouldn't count for much anyway since over 180 Labour MPs are too.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,462

    Charles said:

    Can we let Plato back in, so she can tell us how this is in fact a clever move by Trump.

    Fixed it for you
    You're right we've got LuckyGuy - unless you're a Trump supporter too?
    I'm not a Trump supporter. However I'm also not a useful idiot cheering from the sidelines as democracy gets the shit kicked out of it by state actors in the world's most powerful country, because people dared to elect someone not to their liking.
    Trump is inviting his own kicking by being witlessly incompetent.
    His witless incompetence is neither here nor there. Ronald Reagan was losing his marbles in office; he didn't have to deal with this type of orchestrated campaign. American geopolitics is clearly too important to be hindered by a President.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,264

    My guess is that most voters in Bolsover and West Bromwich do not hold strong views about their MPs. In that, they would be like most other constituents in most other constituencies. What Watson and Skinner both have, though, is name recognition. That could swing it for them. And in Watson's case, his profile is very much anti-Corbyn - which may also be a help in holding onto voters who might otherwise be tempted to vote against the Labour leader.

    Normally I would agree with you.

    However, two thirds of voters in Sandwell voted Leave. That must have included a substantial chunk of Labour voters.

    Watson as a high profile Remainer therefore has a certain disadvantage, particularly with UKIP not standing. If even half of the non-Conservative leave vote rallies to them, he's in real trouble.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/ncpoliticsuk/status/864725442502287360

    That is weirdly high for the SNP
    They do hit 6 every now and again.
    They shouldn't do if they're really in the low forties.
    MoE on 3-6%?
    Pseudo MoE on the SNP should be LOW. Essentially they should get 4 every time I think now.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GeoffM said:

    You know that Dana Milbank is a very biased source, yes?

    Which of the statements in the Tweet are you taking issue with?

    The administration sent multiple people out to deny the story, then Trump admitted it.

    That's reporting, not bias.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Morning all.

    Oh dear, another humiliating outing for Diane Abbott at yesterday’s Police Federation conference. Whose turn will it be today I wonder...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4512938/Robert-Hardman-humiliation-Diane-Abbott.html

    That really is well just , I don't know what the words are to describe it. Car crash is too simple, its so terrible its well.. I just don't know. Never have I seen or heard something so dreadful from a politician.

    People need to read the report and watch the video.. I mean ...Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.
    Fleetwood Mac got it right:

    Oh, oh, whoa...
    Oh, oh, Diane
    Oh, oh, Diane
    (Talkin' 'bout Diane)
    Oh, oh, whoa...
    Oh, oh, Diane
    Oh, oh, Diane
    (Talkin' 'bout Diane)
    Oh, oh, Diane
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    We have just witnessed a handbrake U-turn that has scorched political rubber. In March, at the SNP’s spring conference in Aberdeen, Ms Sturgeon was admirably clear. “There will be an independence referendum,” she said, to euphoric cheering from the faithful. Yet this week, interviewed on BBC Radio Scotland, Ms Sturgeon seemed less sure. Indyref2, she said, was a matter of “if” not “when”. Pressed on what currency Scotland would use after independence, she said: “Look, when we come to an independence referendum — if we come to an independence referendum — these issues will be subject to the greatest of scrutiny.”

    Meanwhile, there has been a shift in SNP messaging. When the snap election was called, the party line was that a strong Nationalist vote would force Theresa May to agree to a new referendum. Ms Sturgeon and Alex Salmond plainly said so.

    That line has now been ditched.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/675e1cce-3a81-11e7-a451-ead20c30db3d
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes

    Seeing Skinner lose would be like Portillo and Balls raised to the power of 10. The Beast of Bolsover felled by a Tory would be such a defining moment. I can't believe it will happen but it would be delicious if it did.
    It might. Con + UKIP is 45% in his constituency and he's only on 51%.

    I doubt he's out pounding the streets at his age and, even if he did, he hates the Tories too much to fight them properly.

    If he does lose, I expect his speech to be more David Mellor than Portillo or Balls.
    All depends how much effort the Tories are putting into Shirebrook, Clowne & Clay Cross. The voters there won't come out without ALOT of effort.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/ncpoliticsuk/status/864725442502287360

    That is weirdly high for the SNP
    They do hit 6 every now and again.
    They shouldn't do if they're really in the low forties.
    MoE on 3-6%?
    Pseudo MoE on the SNP should be LOW. Essentially they should get 4 every time I think now.
    Using all the polls this parliament, average 4.98%, standard deviation 0.01% :p
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Morning all.

    Oh dear, another humiliating outing for Diane Abbott at yesterday’s Police Federation conference. Whose turn will it be today I wonder...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4512938/Robert-Hardman-humiliation-Diane-Abbott.html

    That really is well just , I don't know what the words are to describe it. Car crash is too simple, its so terrible its well.. I just don't know. Never have I seen or heard something so dreadful from a politician.

    People need to read the report and watch the video.. I mean ...Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.
    Fleetwood Mac got it right:

    Oh, oh, whoa...
    Oh, oh, Diane
    Oh, oh, Diane
    (Talkin' 'bout Diane)
    Oh, oh, whoa...
    Oh, oh, Diane
    Oh, oh, Diane
    (Talkin' 'bout Diane)
    Oh, oh, Diane
    Their piece on Brexit is better.

    Tusk!
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,307
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/ncpoliticsuk/status/864725442502287360

    That is weirdly high for the SNP
    They do hit 6 every now and again.
    They shouldn't do if they're really in the low forties.
    True, there were 2 sub samples yesterday that had them in the 50s as well. This is presumably a third. Unweighted sub samples have very high margins of error but this is starting to look like a trend and needs an eye kept on it.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/ncpoliticsuk/status/864725442502287360

    That is weirdly high for the SNP
    They do hit 6 every now and again.
    They shouldn't do if they're really in the low forties.
    True, there were 2 sub samples yesterday that had them in the 50s as well. This is presumably a third. Unweighted sub samples have very high margins of error but this is starting to look like a trend and needs an eye kept on it.
    Wasn't there a full YouGov that had them on the low 40s? Or was that also a subsample?
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    I wonder if Paul Ryan might be a decent outside bet to be the next US president. Mike Pence seems to be heavily integrated into the Trump administration and if the brown stuff really does hit the fan may be a compromised as his boss. Isn't the Speaker of the House second in line to the presidency?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,307
    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/ncpoliticsuk/status/864725442502287360

    That is weirdly high for the SNP
    They do hit 6 every now and again.
    They shouldn't do if they're really in the low forties.
    True, there were 2 sub samples yesterday that had them in the 50s as well. This is presumably a third. Unweighted sub samples have very high margins of error but this is starting to look like a trend and needs an eye kept on it.
    Wasn't there a full YouGov that had them on the low 40s? Or was that also a subsample?
    No you're right there was but it was a bit of time ago now. Has there been a response among their more apathetic supporters to the Tory klaxon? That is the current known unknown.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Jonathan said:

    Morning all.

    Oh dear, another humiliating outing for Diane Abbott at yesterday’s Police Federation conference. Whose turn will it be today I wonder...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4512938/Robert-Hardman-humiliation-Diane-Abbott.html

    That really is well just , I don't know what the words are to describe it. Car crash is too simple, its so terrible its well.. I just don't know. Never have I seen or heard something so dreadful from a politician.

    People need to read the report and watch the video.. I mean ...Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.
    Fleetwood Mac got it right:

    Oh, oh, whoa...
    Oh, oh, Diane
    Oh, oh, Diane
    (Talkin' 'bout Diane)
    Oh, oh, whoa...
    Oh, oh, Diane
    Oh, oh, Diane
    (Talkin' 'bout Diane)
    Oh, oh, Diane
    Their piece on Brexit is better.

    Tusk!
    Or Dreams:

    Now here you go again
    You say you want your freedom
    Well who am I to keep you down
    It's only right that you should
    Play the way you feel it
    But listen carefully to the sound
    Of your loneliness
    Like a heartbeat .. drives you mad
    In the stillness of remembering what you had
    And what you lost ...
    And what you had ...
    And what you lost
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    edited May 2017
    Jonathan said:

    Morning all.

    Oh dear, another humiliating outing for Diane Abbott at yesterday’s Police Federation conference. Whose turn will it be today I wonder...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4512938/Robert-Hardman-humiliation-Diane-Abbott.html

    That really is well just , I don't know what the words are to describe it. Car crash is too simple, its so terrible its well.. I just don't know. Never have I seen or heard something so dreadful from a politician.

    People need to read the report and watch the video.. I mean ...Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.
    Fleetwood Mac got it right:

    Oh, oh, whoa...
    Oh, oh, Diane
    Oh, oh, Diane
    (Talkin' 'bout Diane)
    Oh, oh, whoa...
    Oh, oh, Diane
    Oh, oh, Diane
    (Talkin' 'bout Diane)
    Oh, oh, Diane
    Their piece on Brexit is better.

    Tusk!
    And their take on Jeremy Corbyn is superb:

    Albatross

    There are no words.....
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Scott_P said:

    GeoffM said:

    You know that Dana Milbank is a very biased source, yes?

    Which of the statements in the Tweet are you taking issue with?

    The administration sent multiple people out to deny the story, then Trump admitted it.

    That's reporting, not bias.
    You didn't look at the link I posted about him going to the Democrat party for anti-Trump talking points, did you?

    Fair play to that. I can't complain as I hardly ever look at the links you post either.
  • Options
    trawltrawl Posts: 142
    Re West Bromwich East.

    Sandwell voted heavily leave yes, but look at the recent Metro Mayor vote there. Even with the John Lewis candidate v Sion Simon, the Tories did not win over the area. Don't get me wrong if Watson is in trouble great and 14/1 for Casino Royale are good odds - hope it comes in.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,264
    edited May 2017

    I wonder if Paul Ryan might be a decent outside bet to be the next US president. Mike Pence seems to be heavily integrated into the Trump administration and if the brown stuff really does hit the fan may be a compromised as his boss. Isn't the Speaker of the House second in line to the presidency?

    Yes, but Pence would have to resign before Trump (and only just before) for that bet to come off. Can't see it.

    I think incidentally that as long as Pence is Veep, Trump is safe enough unless he actually does something unambiguously criminal. No way will the Democratics or even a large number of Republicans risk putting Pence in charge unless they absolutely have to. That of course may be why he was chosen ahead of say, Chris Christie.
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    I wonder if Paul Ryan might be a decent outside bet to be the next US president. Mike Pence seems to be heavily integrated into the Trump administration and if the brown stuff really does hit the fan may be a compromised as his boss. Isn't the Speaker of the House second in line to the presidency?

    I thought that the VP was automatically promoted. So unless Pence goes first or in a simultaneous resignation, Ryan might be the next but one.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,307
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I tipped West Bromwich East several weeks ago, and was told the deputy leader gets a boost.

    I'm on at 14/1. I'm astonished that was ever available.

    FPT

    Harry Cole ✔ @MrHarryCole
    Overheard in the pubs of Westminster tonight... seasoned hands think Watson and Skinner constituencies are in play.
    11:43 PM - 16 May 2017
    55 55 Retweets 62 62 likes

    While I think it will be a total bloodbath for Labour across the Midlands, I think both Watson and Skinner probably have enough visibility in their constituencies to make it through to the other side of 8th June alive. The source here is not entirely reliable or disinterested.

    They are very much Marmite candidates - and I think more people loathe them than love them now.

    Watson in particular is hated by the right (because he's basically not a very nice person) by the left (because he's behind most of the briefings against Corbyn) and regarded with distrust by the centre (as the key Brownite attack dog). If he is campaigning on his high profile and personal popularity he's taking an absolutely enormous risk.

    Skinner does however have a track record of nearly 50 years of good service as an MP to fall back on. Whether that will be enough is another question.
    In the modern age, any MP should be engaging with their constituents via email. Skinner's declaration that he has never sent an email is not a badge of honour. It is systematic of a man who has refused to change his thinking in decades.

    How has life in Bolsover been improved as a direct result of his nearly 50 years of being awkward?
    All the mines have shut so the air is clean and people don't die of lung disease any more?
    I doubt he will using that line on his leaflets!
    Somehow I don't either, but it is ironic to reflect on that isn't it? American historian Gerard DeGroot said he found the conservatism of the British union movement truly bewildering. He couldn't understand why Scargill wanted 'the sons of miners to be miners' - it was a terrible life, poorly paid, dirty, dangerous and in dreadful conditions. Surely, he mused, anyone would want something better than that for their children?

    Yet it still remains totemic in certain places.
    Bit like Begbie's efforts in TS2 to get his son to come housebreaking with him when he'd rather go to college. Its a mind set.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    I wonder if Paul Ryan might be a decent outside bet to be the next US president. Mike Pence seems to be heavily integrated into the Trump administration and if the brown stuff really does hit the fan may be a compromised as his boss. Isn't the Speaker of the House second in line to the presidency?

    Yes, that's right.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_line_of_succession
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    I wonder if Paul Ryan might be a decent outside bet to be the next US president. Mike Pence seems to be heavily integrated into the Trump administration and if the brown stuff really does hit the fan may be a compromised as his boss. Isn't the Speaker of the House second in line to the presidency?

    I thought that the VP was automatically promoted. So unless Pence goes first or in a simultaneous resignation, Ryan might be the next but one.

    The VP went first with Watergate. Would a new one have to be confirmed by the Senate?

  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Jonathan said:

    Morning all.

    Oh dear, another humiliating outing for Diane Abbott at yesterday’s Police Federation conference. Whose turn will it be today I wonder...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4512938/Robert-Hardman-humiliation-Diane-Abbott.html

    That really is well just , I don't know what the words are to describe it. Car crash is too simple, its so terrible its well.. I just don't know. Never have I seen or heard something so dreadful from a politician.

    People need to read the report and watch the video.. I mean ...Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.
    Fleetwood Mac got it right:

    Oh, oh, whoa...
    Oh, oh, Diane
    Oh, oh, Diane
    (Talkin' 'bout Diane)
    Oh, oh, whoa...
    Oh, oh, Diane
    Oh, oh, Diane
    (Talkin' 'bout Diane)
    Oh, oh, Diane
    Their piece on Brexit is better.

    Tusk!
    Or Dreams:

    Now here you go again
    You say you want your freedom
    Well who am I to keep you down
    It's only right that you should
    Play the way you feel it
    But listen carefully to the sound
    Of your loneliness
    Like a heartbeat .. drives you mad
    In the stillness of remembering what you had
    And what you lost ...
    And what you had ...
    And what you lost
    And their take on Labour's Manifesto:

    Tell me lies
    Tell me sweet little lies
    (Tell me lies, tell me, tell me lies)
    Oh, no, no you can't disguise
    (You can't disguise, no you can't disguise)
    Tell me lies
    Tell me sweet little lies

    Although I'm not making plans
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    Charles said:

    Can we let Plato back in, so she can tell us how this is in fact a clever move by Trump.

    Fixed it for you
    You're right we've got LuckyGuy - unless you're a Trump supporter too?
    I'm not a Trump supporter. However I'm also not a useful idiot cheering from the sidelines as democracy gets the shit kicked out of it by state actors in the world's most powerful country, because people dared to elect someone not to their liking.
    Trump is inviting his own kicking by being witlessly incompetent.

    And serially dishonest. He cannot be trusted.

    Says the Blairite.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,000

    I wonder if Paul Ryan might be a decent outside bet to be the next US president. Mike Pence seems to be heavily integrated into the Trump administration and if the brown stuff really does hit the fan may be a compromised as his boss. Isn't the Speaker of the House second in line to the presidency?

    I thought that the VP was automatically promoted. So unless Pence goes first or in a simultaneous resignation, Ryan might be the next but one.

    The VP went first with Watergate. Would a new one have to be confirmed by the Senate?

    Different problem.
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    I wonder if Paul Ryan might be a decent outside bet to be the next US president. Mike Pence seems to be heavily integrated into the Trump administration and if the brown stuff really does hit the fan may be a compromised as his boss. Isn't the Speaker of the House second in line to the presidency?

    I thought that the VP was automatically promoted. So unless Pence goes first or in a simultaneous resignation, Ryan might be the next but one.

    The VP went first with Watergate. Would a new one have to be confirmed by the Senate?

    Yes. Assuming The West Wing got it right with Bingo Bob
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    I wonder if Paul Ryan might be a decent outside bet to be the next US president. Mike Pence seems to be heavily integrated into the Trump administration and if the brown stuff really does hit the fan may be a compromised as his boss. Isn't the Speaker of the House second in line to the presidency?

    I thought that the VP was automatically promoted. So unless Pence goes first or in a simultaneous resignation, Ryan might be the next but one.

    The VP went first with Watergate. Would a new one have to be confirmed by the Senate?

    Yes, simple majority of each of the House and Senate.
This discussion has been closed.