I'm vacillating between spoiling my ballot paper and voting Lib Dem. In all probability it will amount to the same thing in practice.
I should think every tiny addition to their national percentage will at least encourage them onwards, even though chances of winning many seats remains poor. Journey of a thousand miles, begins with a single step and all that.
Yeah, but Tim Farron is like Ed Miliband squared, with less intellect. And "Brexit is bad", while true, is not a viable policy.
Swinson will hopefully take charge after the election tbh.
Or Lamb.
But voting LD in this election does have some modest benefit even if unlikely to win your constituency.
Green voters shifted mainstream parties agenda in the nineties, and so did the kippers in the noughties. Politicians go where the votes are, albeit grudingly, slowly and eventually.
Vote for sane centrism, vote for positive internationalism, vote LD.
I'm vacillating between spoiling my ballot paper and voting Lib Dem. In all probability it will amount to the same thing in practice.
I should think every tiny addition to their national percentage will at least encourage them onwards, even though chances of winning many seats remains poor. Journey of a thousand miles, begins with a single step and all that.
Yeah, but Tim Farron is like Ed Miliband squared, with less intellect. And "Brexit is bad", while true, is not a viable policy.
Swinson will hopefully take charge after the election tbh.
Or Lamb.
But voting LD in this election does have some modest benefit even if unlikely to win your constituency.
Green voters shifted mainstream parties agenda in the nineties, and so did the kippers in the noughties. Politicians go where the votes are, albeit grudingly, slowly and eventually.
Vote for sane centrism, vote for positive internationalism, vote LD.
One of the BBC's EU correspondents earlier said that nobody in Europe was bothered by May's speech; they know that she has an election to win, and they know that a bit of EU bashing will help her. I heard Barnier say in his speech that the EU approves of the election as it wants to deal with a UK government with a decent majority, to avoid parliamentary hold ups outside the discussions.
Is there any chance that Juncker's leak, and May's speech, were planned at the dinner?
I do wish the weather would warm up. I am currently sitting in front of a warm fire with scarves round my neck. In May.....
I also have the fire on and a warm cardie.
If this is the sort of weather we are getting post-Brexit then it is simply not good enough and I shall complain. We are paying €100bn for this weather! It is not acceptable!!!
Those pesky Europeans hogging all the good weather
Surreal. I'm wearing shorts and the heating's off. I'm wondering what's wrong with me now!
Maybe you live farther south than me. Manchester is cold.........
Cannock's not ridiculously far south of Manchester.
The architecture isn't as good though.
Cannock has architecture??? We are not talking about Hilton Park Services on the M6 are we?
It has the Prince of Wales Theatre, which must be a profound embarrassment to HRH. Also Chase Leisure Centre.
Theresa May has caused a storm from those who are Europhiles on here.
However, is any remainer willing to declare whether this has helped or hindered her election chances.
My very first comment in this thread was how exactly does your remainer supporting Tory change their vote to... This shores up the UKIP to Tory vote and may even get a fair few former kippers out to the polling station voting blue - traditional tories have no where else to go....
Precisely we're shafted. Can't vote Corbyn obviously, Farron is pointless.
I have been saying something along these lines for a while now. Corbyn, to me, is completely unsuitable for the job he holds never mind that of PM and the LDs have no chance of doing anything significant. Farron seems to be a total lightweight and largely ignored
I will not vote Tory or Labour. If the LDs had a substantial leader I would vote for them, but Farron? For the first time in my adult life, I feel disenfranchised. If there was a "None of the above" option I would be putting my X in it.
Are you not a member of LDs ?
No. I have never joined a political party although I have voted for quite a number of them. I am a very disloyal voter.
Sorry ! I confused with another Beverly who is an LD member.
Almost all the Tory gains since 2015 have come from UKIP, in electoral terms playing tough with the EU until the elections are over has few risks for May, especially as Tory Remainers are likely to stick with nurse for fear of Corbyn
I think that correctly diagnoses the strategy. But it's a bit too transparent even in our Trumpian age. I think she'll get a short-term bump but she risks depressing the vote of the more sober Tories, who may simply stay at home.
She could end up winning by >20 points.
I wouldn't bet on it, but she's got a chance. The ICM unadjusted is turning out +21.
Le Pen smiles too much when talking, it's a very thin cold smile, sharklike. It makes her look smug.
I don't dare watch, sort of hoping for a poor, no vote will change damp squib of a debate tbh.
I have the impression that they enjoy debating with each other. They're pretty well matched. It wouldn't be difficult to imagine them going off for a friendly chat and a drink afterwards.
Very different styles of debate though - reminds me of Clegg and Farage in the 2014 EU debates. Both accomplished debaters but in very different ways.
Yeah, he wants to be careful about being too assertive though. It might feel good, and he might walk off feeling smug, but when he sees les resultats he might not feel so good.
It's not always a good idea to appear the smartest kid in the class, even if you are.
Almost all the Tory gains since 2015 have come from UKIP, in electoral terms playing tough with the EU until the elections are over has few risks for May, especially as Tory Remainers are likely to stick with nurse for fear of Corbyn
I think that correctly diagnoses the strategy. But it's a bit too transparent even in our Trumpian age. I think she'll get a short-term bump but she risks depressing the vote of the more sober Tories, who may simply stay at home.
I'm thinking a small bump for Labour too, as some more waverers rally against this insane PM, and maybe a few LD switchers who at least briefly consider Corbyn the lesser of two evils.
Yes - and with TM on record as saying she'd be willing to launch a nuclear first strike, he may well be the safer option as well as the saner one.
We'd be safer with a man who has backed terrorism against a woman who has said she might under unusual circumstances use nuclear weapons? It's a point of view I suppose.
Nick, you really need to move on. You made an appalling mistake and elected an utterly loathsome cretin who is about to finally destroy Labour. Well, we all mistakes. But trying to justify it simply makes it worse.
One of the BBC's EU correspondents earlier said that nobody in Europe was bothered by May's speech; they know that she has an election to win...
Is there any chance that Juncker's leak, and May's speech, were planned at the dinner?
Sounds pretty sensible, though I doubt they would outright plan such a back and forth - if we were able to coordinate so amicably, we wouldn't be leaving in the first place. More likely May and negotiators are simply not as prissy as UK commenters are about the comments, even if they disapprove.
Le Pen is a master in pissing off her opponents. A useful talent. Macron is getting very agitated, it brings out his 'incredulous elitist' side. But he's not failing miserably either so I don't see this being a game changer.
Almost all the Tory gains since 2015 have come from UKIP, in electoral terms playing tough with the EU until the elections are over has few risks for May, especially as Tory Remainers are likely to stick with nurse for fear of Corbyn
I think that correctly diagnoses the strategy. But it's a bit too transparent even in our Trumpian age. I think she'll get a short-term bump but she risks depressing the vote of the more sober Tories, who may simply stay at home.
I'm thinking a small bump for Labour too, as some more waverers rally against this insane PM, and maybe a few LD switchers who at least briefly consider Corbyn the lesser of two evils.
Yes - and with TM on record as saying she'd be willing to launch a nuclear first strike, he may well be the safer option as well as the saner one.
We'd be safer with a man who has backed terrorism against a woman who has said she might under unusual circumstances use nuclear weapons? It's a point of view I suppose.
Nick, you really need to move on. You made an appalling mistake and elected an utterly loathsome cretin who is about to finally destroy Labour. Well, we all mistakes. But trying to justify it simply makes it worse.
Theresa May has caused a storm from those who are Europhiles on here.
However, is any remainer willing to declare whether this has helped or hindered her election chances.
It won't have helped her with the Remainers as they are educated enough to see through all this play-acting. The Leavers on the other hand ....
That is the type of arrogant comment that has caused the leave vote
The Leavers voted Leave before the analysis was done that showed that, on average, they were older, poorer and less educated than the Remainers. The analysis didn't cause them to vote Leave. They didn't know just how poor, old and poorly educated they were at the time of the vote. Or perhaps they did and it pissed them off.
EDIT: To be clear - I'm not blaming them. They can't help being old, poor and less educated.
It must hurt to lose to people who are less wise, wealthy, and well-born than you are.
Not sure about 'poorly educated' - the over 60s went to proper universities and got degrees in STEM subjects after doing O levels and A levels - the brats under 40 get GCSEs, study watered down subjects at micky-mouse colleges to get degrees not worth the parchment they're written on and wouldn't know the difference between absorb and adsorb.
If you don't believe me - ask any recruiter - or University lecturer.
Surely the point is only a smallish minority of over-60s went to university at all, and a large proportion will not have O-levels or A-levels, rather CSEs. Moreover, I think I am right in saying most universities down to the 1980s prioritised the liberal arts rather than STEM subjects? A lot of the tech (such as it was) and engineering would have been through polys, surely?
Polytechnics were safety nets for people who couldn't get into University - at my school we were advised to include one on our UCCA forms. Nowadays they are counted as real universities where uneducated kids listen to lectures by left-wing professors for the 2 days a week when they have courses for their degrees - and then those here on PB are surprised that the young are so much for remain/labour.
Almost all the Tory gains since 2015 have come from UKIP, in electoral terms playing tough with the EU until the elections are over has few risks for May, especially as Tory Remainers are likely to stick with nurse for fear of Corbyn
I think that correctly diagnoses the strategy. But it's a bit too transparent even in our Trumpian age. I think she'll get a short-term bump but she risks depressing the vote of the more sober Tories, who may simply stay at home.
I'm thinking a small bump for Labour too, as some more waverers rally against this insane PM, and maybe a few LD switchers who at least briefly consider Corbyn the lesser of two evils.
Yes - and with TM on record as saying she'd be willing to launch a nuclear first strike, he may well be the safer option as well as the saner one.
We'd be safer with a man who has backed terrorism against a woman who has said she might under unusual circumstances use nuclear weapons? It's a point of view I suppose.
Nick, you really need to move on. You made an appalling mistake and elected an utterly loathsome cretin who is about to finally destroy Labour. Well, we all mistakes. But trying to justify it simply makes it worse.
You know a week ago I would have agreed with you but after the last week I think Nick was correct. Corbyn is what is says on the tin. He's straight and by his own lights principled. May by contrast is showing herself to be the worst sort of opportunist. Self regarding and Iago like in the damage she'll inflict for her own ends
Theresa May has caused a storm from those who are Europhiles on here.
However, is any remainer willing to declare whether this has helped or hindered her election chances.
It won't have helped her with the Remainers as they are educated enough to see through all this play-acting. The Leavers on the other hand ....
That is the type of arrogant comment that has caused the leave vote
The Leavers voted Leave before the analysis was done that showed that, on average, they were older, poorer and less educated than the Remainers. The analysis didn't cause them to vote Leave. They didn't know just how poor, old and poorly educated they were at the time of the vote. Or perhaps they did and it pissed them off.
EDIT: To be clear - I'm not blaming them. They can't help being old, poor and less educated.
It must hurt to lose to people who are less wise, wealthy, and well-born than you are.
Not sure about 'poorly educated' - the over 60s went to proper universities and got degrees in STEM subjects after doing O levels and A levels - the brats under 40 get GCSEs, study watered down subjects at micky-mouse colleges to get degrees not worth the parchment they're written on and wouldn't know the difference between absorb and adsorb.
If you don't believe me - ask any recruiter - or University lecturer.
Surely the point is only a smallish minority of over-60s went to university at all, and a large proportion will not have O-levels or A-levels, rather CSEs. Moreover, I think I am right in saying most universities down to the 1980s prioritised the liberal arts rather than STEM subjects? A lot of the tech (such as it was) and engineering would have been through polys, surely?
Polytechnics were safety nets for people who couldn't get into University - at my school we were advised to include one on our UCCA forms. Nowadays they are counted as real universities where uneducated kids listen to lectures by left-wing professors for the 2 days a week when they have courses for their degrees - and then those here on PB are surprised that the young are so much for remain/labour.
Polys had a seperate application process to UCCA as I recall.
Theresa May has caused a storm from those who are Europhiles on here.
However, is any remainer willing to declare whether this has helped or hindered her election chances.
It won't have helped her with the Remainers as they are educated enough to see through all this play-acting. The Leavers on the other hand ....
That is the type of arrogant comment that has caused the leave vote
The Leavers voted Leave before the analysis was done that showed that, on average, they were older, poorer and less educated than the Remainers. The analysis didn't cause them to vote Leave. They didn't know just how poor, old and poorly educated they were at the time of the vote. Or perhaps they did and it pissed them off.
EDIT: To be clear - I'm not blaming them. They can't help being old, poor and less educated.
It must hurt to lose to people who are less wise, wealthy, and well-born than you are.
Not sure about 'poorly educated' - the over 60s went to proper universities and got degrees in STEM subjects after doing O levels and A levels - the brats under 40 get GCSEs, study watered down subjects at micky-mouse colleges to get degrees not worth the parchment they're written on and wouldn't know the difference between absorb and adsorb.
If you don't believe me - ask any recruiter - or University lecturer.
Surely the point is only a smallish minority of over-60s went to university at all, and a large proportion will not have O-levels or A-levels, rather CSEs. Moreover, I think I am right in saying most universities down to the 1980s prioritised the liberal arts rather than STEM subjects? A lot of the tech (such as it was) and engineering would have been through polys, surely?
Polytechnics were safety nets for people who couldn't get into University - at my school we were advised to include one on our UCCA forms. Nowadays they are counted as real universities where uneducated kids listen to lectures by left-wing professors for the 2 days a week when they have courses for their degrees - and then those here on PB are surprised that the young are so much for remain/labour.
I sometimes feel I missed out on these rabid lefty academics that seems so common - I don't think I can recall an incident which revealed the political affiliation of any of my lecturers.
Making her claim seem more extreme makes it easier to criticise.
Not necessary as it was overblown anywhere, but expect all the papers to have no perspective on this. That one is positively restrained compared to what I expect is coming.
Theresa May has caused a storm from those who are Europhiles on here.
However, is any remainer willing to declare whether this has helped or hindered her election chances.
It won't have helped her with the Remainers as they are educated enough to see through all this play-acting. The Leavers on the other hand ....
That is the type of arrogant comment that has caused the leave vote
The Leavers voted Leave before the analysis was done that showed that, on average, they were older, poorer and less educated than the Remainers. The analysis didn't cause them to vote Leave. They didn't know just how poor, old and poorly educated they were at the time of the vote. Or perhaps they did and it pissed them off.
EDIT: To be clear - I'm not blaming them. They can't help being old, poor and less educated.
It must hurt to lose to people who are less wise, wealthy, and well-born than you are.
snip
If you don't believe me - ask any recruiter - or University lecturer.
Surely the point is only a smallish minority of over-60s went to university at all, and a large proportion will not have O-levels or A-levels, rather CSEs. Moreover, I think I am right in saying most universities down to the 1980s prioritised the liberal arts rather than STEM subjects? A lot of the tech (such as it was) and engineering would have been through polys, surely?
Polytechnics were safety nets for people who couldn't get into University - at my school we were advised to include one on our UCCA forms. Nowadays they are counted as real universities where uneducated kids listen to lectures by left-wing professors for the 2 days a week when they have courses for their degrees - and then those here on PB are surprised that the young are so much for remain/labour.
Polys had a seperate application process to UCCA as I recall.
My application was in 1979 - things may have changed before or after, but I remember the discussion with the Headmaster and Careers teacher and at no time did they mention a separate application (it might I suppose have been a separate section of the application form - but since Newcastle University was my safety net, I don't remember).
Almost all the Tory gains since 2015 have come from UKIP, in electoral terms playing tough with the EU until the elections are over has few risks for May, especially as Tory Remainers are likely to stick with nurse for fear of Corbyn
I think that correctly diagnoses the strategy. But it's a bit too transparent even in our Trumpian age. I think she'll get a short-term bump but she risks depressing the vote of the more sober Tories, who may simply stay at home.
I'm thinking a small bump for Labour too, as some more waverers rally against this insane PM, and maybe a few LD switchers who at least briefly consider Corbyn the lesser of two evils.
Yes - and with TM on record as saying she'd be willing to launch a nuclear first strike, he may well be the safer option as well as the saner one.
We'd be safer with a man who has backed terrorism against a woman who has said she might under unusual circumstances use nuclear weapons? It's a point of view I suppose.
Nick, you really need to move on. You made an appalling mistake and elected an utterly loathsome cretin who is about to finally destroy Labour. Well, we all mistakes. But trying to justify it simply makes it worse.
You know a week ago I would have agreed with you but after the last week I think Nick was correct. Corbyn is what is says on the tin. He's straight and by his own lights principled. May by contrast is showing herself to be the worst sort of opportunist. Self regarding and Iago like in the damage she'll inflict for her own ends
Jezza in charge must surely be what the establishment fears the most.
Theresa May has caused a storm from those who are Europhiles on here.
However, is any remainer willing to declare whether this has helped or hindered her election chances.
It won't have helped her with the Remainers as they are educated enough to see through all this play-acting. The Leavers on the other hand ....
That is the type of arrogant comment that has caused the leave vote
The Leavers voted Leave before the analysis was done that showed that, on average, they were older, poorer and less educated than the Remainers. The analysis didn't cause them to vote Leave. They didn't know just how poor, old and poorly educated they were at the time of the vote. Or perhaps they did and it pissed them off.
EDIT: To be clear - I'm not blaming them. They can't help being old, poor and less educated.
It must hurt to lose to people who are less wise, wealthy, and well-born than you are.
Not sure about 'poorly educated' - the over 60s went to proper universities and got degrees in STEM subjects after doing O levels and A levels - the brats under 40 get GCSEs, study watered down subjects at micky-mouse colleges to get degrees not worth the parchment they're written on and wouldn't know the difference between absorb and adsorb.
If you don't believe me - ask any recruiter - or University lecturer.
Surely the point is only a smallish minority of over-60s went to university at all, and a large proportion will not have O-levels or A-levels, rather CSEs. Moreover, I think I am right in saying most universities down to the 1980s prioritised the liberal arts rather than STEM subjects? A lot of the tech (such as it was) and engineering would have been through polys, surely?
Polytechnics were safety nets for people who couldn't get into University - at my school we were advised to include one on our UCCA forms. Nowadays they are counted as real universities where uneducated kids listen to lectures by left-wing professors for the 2 days a week when they have courses for their degrees - and then those here on PB are surprised that the young are so much for remain/labour.
Polys had a seperate application process to UCCA as I recall.
There seems to be a big problem with schedulers putting election debates on at the same time as big football matches. I seem to recall a similar thing happening here in 2015.
For the first time in a decade I am unsure if I will vote tomorrow and for who. Naturally Tory but would like to go back to lib dems. No lib dem leaflet and they are non existent here. Good Tory leaflet which completely ignores brexit and tm. She is pretty toxic up here. In a quandary.
Theresa May has caused a storm from those who are Europhiles on here.
However, is any remainer willing to declare whether this has helped or hindered her election chances.
It won't have helped her with the Remainers as they are educated enough to see through all this play-acting. The Leavers on the other hand ....
That is the type of arrogant comment that has caused the leave vote
The Leavers voted Leave before the analysis was done that showed that, on average, they were older, poorer and less educated than the Remainers. The analysis didn't cause them to vote Leave. They didn't know just how poor, old and poorly educated they were at the time of the vote. Or perhaps they did and it pissed them off.
EDIT: To be clear - I'm not blaming them. They can't help being old, poor and less educated.
It must hurt to lose to people who are less wise, wealthy, and well-born than you are.
Not sure about 'poorly educated' - the over 60s went to proper universities and got degrees in STEM subjects after doing O levels and A levels - the brats under 40 get GCSEs, study watered down subjects at micky-mouse colleges to get degrees not worth the parchment they're written on and wouldn't know the difference between absorb and adsorb.
If you don't believe me - ask any recruiter - or University lecturer.
Surely the point is only a smallish minority of over-60s went to university at all, and a large proportion will not have O-levels or A-levels, rather CSEs. Moreover, I think I am right in saying most universities down to the 1980s prioritised the liberal arts rather than STEM subjects? A lot of the tech (such as it was) and engineering would have been through polys, surely?
Polytechnics were safety nets for people who couldn't get into University - at my school we were advised to include one on our UCCA forms. Nowadays they are counted as real universities where uneducated kids listen to lectures by left-wing professors for the 2 days a week when they have courses for their degrees - and then those here on PB are surprised that the young are so much for remain/labour.
Polys had a seperate application process to UCCA as I recall.
There seems to be a big problem with schedulers putting election debates on at the same time as big football matches. I seem to recall a similar thing happening here in 2015.
I'm sure the debate will be on in all the bars in France.
Almost all the Tory gains since 2015 have come from UKIP, in electoral terms playing tough with the EU until the elections are over has few risks for May, especially as Tory Remainers are likely to stick with nurse for fear of Corbyn
I think that correctly diagnoses the strategy. But it's a bit too transparent even in our Trumpian age. I think she'll get a short-term bump but she risks depressing the vote of the more sober Tories, who may simply stay at home.
I'm thinking a small bump for Labour too, as some more waverers rally against this insane PM, and maybe a few LD switchers who at least briefly consider Corbyn the lesser of two evils.
Yes - and with TM on record as saying she'd be willing to launch a nuclear first strike, he may well be the safer option as well as the saner one.
We'd be safer with a man who has backed terrorism against a woman who has said she might under unusual circumstances use nuclear weapons? It's a point of view I suppose.
Nick, you really need to move on. You made an appalling mistake and elected an utterly loathsome cretin who is about to finally destroy Labour. Well, we all mistakes. But trying to justify it simply makes it worse.
You know a week ago I would have agreed with you but after the last week I think Nick was correct. Corbyn is what is says on the tin. He's straight and by his own lights principled. May by contrast is showing herself to be the worst sort of opportunist. Self regarding and Iago like in the damage she'll inflict for her own ends
Jezza in charge must surely be what the establishment fears the most.
If such a thing as 'the establishment' exists, it would fear it for a good reason. May could be bad but it would be within understandable ranges, Corbyn goes well beyond it. Trump, only with less charisma (and being personally more pleasant and polite, as well as consistent)
For the first time in a decade I am unsure if I will vote tomorrow and for who. Naturally Tory but would like to go back to lib dems. No lib dem leaflet and they are non existent here. Good Tory leaflet which completely ignores brexit and tm. She is pretty toxic up here. In a quandary.
You can safely vote Tory in the locals to stuff Nicola. The general is more tricky
For the first time in a decade I am unsure if I will vote tomorrow and for who. Naturally Tory but would like to go back to lib dems. No lib dem leaflet and they are non existent here. Good Tory leaflet which completely ignores brexit and tm. She is pretty toxic up here. In a quandary.
Tough situation. I feel in a national campaign I can, even in the absence of a leaflet (and thus effort) justifiably judge things on the national picture as the most relevant issue, but for locals I feel like they need to explain why they are best in the specific area a lot more. But if the other options are tough, it could be awkward.
I sometimes feel I missed out on these rabid lefty academics that seems so common - I don't think I can recall an incident which revealed the political affiliation of any of my lecturers.
I do. Not during my undergraduate course but in my postgraduate course some lecturers were very political; but the fact that there was a strike and pickets that year by lecturers was a background that encouraged them to reveal their politics perhaps more than normal.
Almost all the Tory gains since 2015 have come from UKIP, in electoral terms playing tough with the EU until the elections are over has few risks for May, especially as Tory Remainers are likely to stick with nurse for fear of Corbyn
I think that correctly diagnoses the strategy. But it's a bit too transparent even in our Trumpian age. I think she'll get a short-term bump but she risks depressing the vote of the more sober Tories, who may simply stay at home.
I'm thinking a small bump for Labour too, as some more waverers rally against this insane PM, and maybe a few LD switchers who at least briefly consider Corbyn the lesser of two evils.
Yes - and with TM on record as saying she'd be willing to launch a nuclear first strike, he may well be the safer option as well as the saner one.
We'd be safer with a man who has backed terrorism against a woman who has said she might under unusual circumstances use nuclear weapons? It's a point of view I suppose.
Nick, you really need to move on. You made an appalling mistake and elected an utterly loathsome cretin who is about to finally destroy Labour. Well, we all mistakes. But trying to justify it simply makes it worse.
Nick is a secular Vicar of Bray.
And Jez his lawful King shall be...until the times do alter!
The UCCA and Poly applications were separate. I applied to both Universities and Polys. Had embarrassing interview at Central London Poly, when asked I admitted that I had applied for University. The tutor, then said don't worry I gave the same advice to my daughter.
I'm not sure what to think about the recent spats with the EU. I do think May went a bit too far today. But then, it was a low blow to leak the "living in a different galaxy" stuff. I suspect this is all brinkmanship before the negotiations start, but it does show that they will be bitter and all the mood music that everyone just wants an amicable split seems to be on the wane.
I voted remain in the referendum, but somewhat reluctantly. I felt, on balance, that remain was the right choice. But I have always been deeply concerned by the EUs lack of accountability and its seeming disregard for nation state democracy. Whilst I would be a keener supporter of a more accountable, democratic EU, I do feel there is very little chance of that coming about due to the entrenched position of those who wield power in Brussels.
I'm one of those people who was initially disappointed by the result, but who feels that it's now important to move on and make the best of it. I also think there needs to be some element of a clean break - a soft Brexit appears to me to be such an unattractive halfway house that you might as well remain in the club.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm concerned, but open-minded. It remains to be seen how well the Tories will handle Brexit negotiations - it's been a mixed bag so far. But I genuinely can't see any realistic alternative at the moment, so they've definitely got my vote this time. May does appear at least to be taking the pragmatic approach that I think is probably needed.
Theresa May has caused a storm from those who are Europhiles on here.
However, is any remainer willing to declare whether this has helped or hindered her election chances.
It won't have helped her with the Remainers as they are educated enough to see through all this play-acting. The Leavers on the other hand ....
That is the type of arrogant comment that has caused the leave vote
The Leavers voted Leave
EDIT: To be clear - I'm not blaming them. They can't help being old, poor and less educated.
It must hurt to lose to people who are less wise, wealthy, and well-born than you are.
Not sure about 'poorly educated' - the over 60s went to proper universities and got degrees in STEM subjects after doing O levels and A levels - the brats under 40 get GCSEs, study watered down subjects at micky-mouse colleges to get degrees not worth the parchment they're written on and wouldn't know the difference between absorb and adsorb.
If you don't believe me - ask any recruiter - or University lecturer.
Surely the point is only a smallish minority of over-60s went to university at all, and a large proportion will not have O-levels or A-levels, rather CSEs. Moreover, I think I am right in saying most universities down to the 1980s prioritised the liberal arts rather than STEM subjects? A lot of the tech (such as it was) and engineering would have been through polys, surely?
Polytechnics were safety nets for people who couldn't get into University - at my school we were advised to include one on our UCCA forms. Nowadays they are counted as real universities where uneducated kids listen to lectures by left-wing professors for the 2 days a week when they have courses for their degrees - and then those here on PB are surprised that the young are so much for remain/labour.
Polys had a seperate application process to UCCA as I recall.
Polys were not in UCCA prior to that. I did my UCCA form in '82.
UCCA stood for Universities Central Council on Admissions as I recall, and Polys were not Universities, though some have become quite good universities since.
Almost all the Tory gains since 2015 have come from UKIP, in electoral terms playing tough with the EU until the elections are over has few risks for May, especially as Tory Remainers are likely to stick with nurse for fear of Corbyn
I think that correctly diagnoses the strategy. But it's a bit too transparent even in our Trumpian age. I think she'll get a short-term bump but she risks depressing the vote of the more sober Tories, who may simply stay at home.
I'm thinking a small bump for Labour too, as some more waverers rally against this insane PM, and maybe a few LD switchers who at least briefly consider Corbyn the lesser of two evils.
Yes - and with TM on record as saying she'd be willing to launch a nuclear first strike, he may well be the safer option as well as the saner one.
We'd be safer with a man who has backed terrorism against a woman who has said she might under unusual circumstances use nuclear weapons? It's a point of view I suppose.
Nick, you really need to move on. You made an appalling mistake and elected an utterly loathsome cretin who is about to finally destroy Labour. Well, we all mistakes. But trying to justify it simply makes it worse.
You know a week ago I would have agreed with you but after the last week I think Nick was correct. Corbyn is what is says on the tin. He's straight and by his own lights principled. May by contrast is showing herself to be the worst sort of opportunist. Self regarding and Iago like in the damage she'll inflict for her own ends
Jezza in charge must surely be what the establishment fears the most.
I'm not sure some people, perhaps because they just refuse to get their head around it, get what May is aiming at here.
You could say it's swivel eyed racist, ignorant, or my favourite, the pat on the head pitying 'misled' people who voted Leave but Ive said it before and its worth saying again. There is an innate British trait that we neither like nor yield when people back us against the wall.
The standard British reaction is 'yeah? Come on then, do your worst. We'll still be standing'
That isn't just a Brexit-mind, its a British trait.
Yes, I'm very much of that persuasion myself, Yokel, but for the small qualification that one has to believe it's something worth fighting for.
And that the fight wasn't started by us.
I've always taken a mild view of May - calm manner uited to difficult times, pity about her policies. But she's starting to sound alarmingly egomaniacal, in a very un-British sort of way.
Considering May has spoken after days of reporting initiated by Juncker and followed up by Barnier and others ... I doubt anyone would think that it was a fight started by us.
I sometimes feel I missed out on these rabid lefty academics that seems so common - I don't think I can recall an incident which revealed the political affiliation of any of my lecturers.
I do. Not during my undergraduate course but in my postgraduate course some lecturers were very political; but the fact that there was a strike and pickets that year by lecturers was a background that encouraged them to reveal their politics perhaps more than normal.
Oh the stereotype is so prevalent, and left leaningness known to be the case, that I don't doubt it happens, but I don't recall a lick of it. There was a lecturers strike one year, but I didn't really pay attention to it, which might have revealed more.
Theresa May has caused a storm from those who are Europhiles on here.
However, is any remainer willing to declare whether this has helped or hindered her election chances.
It won't have helped her with the Remainers as they are educated enough to see through all this play-acting. The Leavers on the other hand ....
That is the type of arrogant comment that has caused the leave vote
The Leavers voted Leave before the analysis was done that showed that, on average, they were older, poorer and less educated than the Remainers. The analysis didn't cause them to vote Leave. They didn't know just how poor, old and poorly educated they were at the time of the vote. Or perhaps they did and it pissed them off.
EDIT: To be clear - I'm not blaming them. They can't help being old, poor and less educated.
It must hurt to lose to people who are less wise, wealthy, and well-born than you are.
Not sure about 'poorly educated' - the over 60s went to proper universities and got degrees in STEM subjects after doing O levels and A levels - the brats under 40 get GCSEs, study watered down subjects at micky-mouse colleges to get degrees not worth the parchment they're written on and wouldn't know the difference between absorb and adsorb.
If you don't believe me - ask any recruiter - or University lecturer.
Surely the point is only a smallish minority of over-60s went to university at all, and a large proportion will not have O-levels or A-levels, rather CSEs. Moreover, I think I am right in saying most universities down to the 1980s prioritised the liberal arts rather than STEM subjects? A lot of the tech (such as it was) and engineering would have been through polys, surely?
Polytechnics were safety nets for people who couldn't get into University - at my school we were advised to include one on our UCCA forms. Nowadays they are counted as real universities where uneducated kids listen to lectures by left-wing professors for the 2 days a week when they have courses for their degrees - and then those here on PB are surprised that the young are so much for remain/labour.
Polys had a seperate application process to UCCA as I recall.
I sometimes feel I missed out on these rabid lefty academics that seems so common - I don't think I can recall an incident which revealed the political affiliation of any of my lecturers.
I do. Not during my undergraduate course but in my postgraduate course some lecturers were very political; but the fact that there was a strike and pickets that year by lecturers was a background that encouraged them to reveal their politics perhaps more than normal.
The economics lectures I had at business school over twenty years ago from a young Evan Davis were the most rabidly anti-EU polemics I have ever encountered. But it didn't rub off on me, and it seems since to have rubbed at least a little off him.
Theresa May has caused a storm from those who are Europhiles on here.
However, is any remainer willing to declare whether this has helped or hindered her election chances.
It won't have helped her with the Remainers as they are educated enough to see through all this play-acting. The Leavers on the other hand ....
That is the type of arrogant comment that has caused the leave vote
EDIT: To be clear - I'm not blaming them. They can't help being old, poor and less educated.
It must hurt to lose to people who are less wise, wealthy, and well-born than you are.
Not sure about 'poorly educated' - the over 60s went to proper universities and got degrees in STEM subjects after doing O levels and A levels - the brats under 40 get GCSEs, study watered down subjects at micky-mouse colleges to get degrees not worth the parchment they're written on and wouldn't know the difference between absorb and adsorb.
If you don't believe me - ask any recruiter - or University lecturer.
Surely the point is only a smallish minority of over-60s went to university at all, and a large proportion will not have O-levels or A-levels, rather CSEs. Moreover, I think I am right in saying most universities down to the 1980s prioritised the liberal arts rather than STEM subjects? A lot of the tech (such as it was) and engineering would have been through polys, surely?
Polytechnics were safety nets for people who couldn't get into University - at my school we were advised to include one on our UCCA forms. Nowadays they are counted as real universities where uneducated kids listen to lectures by left-wing professors for the 2 days a week when they have courses for their degrees - and then those here on PB are surprised that the young are so much for remain/labour.
Polys had a seperate application process to UCCA as I recall.
They are both basically telling the other one to shut up at this point. The tone of the debate has actually been worse than that of Trump/Clinton. At the end of one of those debates, the candidates managed to say something nice about each other. I would be interested to see them ask the same question after this one.
Bloody hell Macron is poor,how the hell has he let Le pen be the defender of the Jews/homosexuality.
Well he obviously supports jews as much as Corbyn - left-wing anti-semitism comes out in more than one country - and that jibe abbout supporting an anti-homosexual, anti semitic organisation hit home..
(How many jews have left france in the last few years?)
Is this what the Republic has come to, presidential candidates using english loan words?!
Am I right in thinking Macron was not fantastic in the other debate either? Seems like be it policies or baggage will mean Le Pen has very little chance of winning though.
Monaco vs Juventus is a cracking match. A masterpiece of Italian defending and French flair.
Tis a bit of poor scheduling of the debate. There must be some audience crossover, particularly in Provence.
Yes, I can just see the good people of Provence mulling that one over: 'Football, debate....football, debate.....hmmmmm.'
Tough one....non.
Footy for me...
Wise choice. Your boy's getting caned.
Are you predicting a Le Pen victory on Sunday Monica?
If she wasn't carrying the baggage of the name of her party and her father, she would win this at a canter in Britain.
He's a throwback to Blair, a fifth rate Cameron.
I'm watching the football, like most people, so wouldn't know. I'd like to think the UK wouldn't elect a neo fascist on the basis of one debate, but given recent trends, you might be right.
Macron is continually accusing Le Pen of lying...without appreciable effect, other than looking defensive.
They are both playing the Algerian war card now. She started it. He said he wants to look to the future. But then he mentions the Vel d'Hiv round up. I think he's on very weak ground when the reference is to past (and continuing) divisions in France.
Polytechnics were safety nets for people who couldn't get into University - at my school we were advised to include one on our UCCA forms. Nowadays they are counted as real universities where uneducated kids listen to lectures by left-wing professors for the 2 days a week when they have courses for their degrees - and then those here on PB are surprised that the young are so much for remain/labour.
I'm not convinced by your reasoning. In 1992 there were around 90,000 degrees awarded by full universities, compared with 110,000 awarded by polys, which specifically existed to promote technical education especially in engineering. Even if we assume a third of all university candidates failed or dropped out - and I know that the failure rate was higher then than it is now, but that seems very high - and all poly candidates got qualifications, the numbers are still roughly equal. So that suggests they were a bit more than just a safety net for people lacking the intellectual heft for universities (like say Corbyn) even if as you say, and which appears to be disputed, they had the same application process.
Your comment on left-wing lecturers is also I would suggest wrong. You will find huge numbers of left-wingers in the red bricks and Oxbridge, and you will find plenty of right wingers in the former polys. Oxford Brookes, which until recent cuts had a history faculty that actually ranked above that of its more famous neighbour, has a head of department who considered Cameron a dangerous liberal. You might also be surprised to learn that more contact time is often required in the ex-polys for degree courses, although admittedly the students are on average less intelligent and may need it more.
Macron is continually accusing Le Pen of lying...without appreciable effect, other than looking defensive.
They are both playing the Algerian war card now. She started it. He said he wants to look to the future. But then he mentions the Vel d'Hiv round up. I think he's on very weak ground when the reference is to past (and continuing) divisions in France.
Im just watching them having an argument about who was responsible for Vichy France.. pretty astonishing stuff.
Try as I might, I'm struggling to see what the downside* of Theresa May's rather vigorous rhetoric is supposed to be. Are people seriously suggesting that the EU27 are such snowflakes that a rebuttal of their own 'Brexit must be a failure' and 'on another galaxy' lines will trigger a reaction which means they slink off and don't do a deal?
* Of course, I can see the downside for the opposition parties.
A little bit of Jingoism never did anyone any harm, or did it?
I expect PB Leavers to be just as sympathetic to bellicose posturing during the French assembly elections, the German elections and the Spring '18 Italian elections.
Brexit by timetable...
Such as Macron threatening to tear up the Calais agreement, or Merkel claiming the UK has 'illusions', you mean?
I don't think tearing up the Calais agreement is a threat. The French are totally serious about passing the problem into us.
Could that mean that Dave was right (again) about shanty towns i deepest Kent?
No. UK Border control is useless, they'll disperse.
We charge Eurostar £10,000 for every passenger without papers who gets on one of their trains. That will stop the flow.
The fact they are majority owned by the French government is an ancillary benefit
Theresa May has caused a storm from those who are Europhiles on here.
However, is any remainer willing to declare whether this has helped or hindered her election chances.
It won't have helped her with the Remainers as they are educated enough to see through all this play-acting. The Leavers on the other hand ....
That is the type of arrogant comment that has caused the leave vote
EDIT: To be clear - I'm not blaming them. They can't help being old, poor and less educated.
It must hurt to lose to people who are less wise, wealthy, and well-born than you are.
Not sure about 'poorly educated' - the over 60s went to proper universities and got degrees in STEM subjects after doing O levels and A levels - the brats under 40 get GCSEs, study watered down subjects at micky-mouse colleges to get degrees not worth the parchment they're written on and wouldn't know the difference between absorb and adsorb.
If you don't believe me - ask any recruiter - or University lecturer.
Surely the point is only a smallish minority of over-60s went to university at all, and a large proportion will not have O-levels or A-levels, rather CSEs. Moreover, I think I am right in saying most universities down to the 1980s prioritised the liberal arts rather than STEM subjects? A lot of the tech (such as it was) and engineering would have been through polys, surely?
Polytechnics were .
Polys had a seperate application process to UCCA as I recall.
After mine as well. However I would say that for some applied science courses, Polys were better than a lot of Unis
Polys were aimed at more technical subjects. Leicester Poly used to do a lot of textile related degrees, and is still strong in design and fashion as De Montfort University. It has expanded and broadened though.
Not much rag trade left in Leicester to employ textile grads nowadays.
Macron is continually accusing Le Pen of lying...without appreciable effect, other than looking defensive.
They are both playing the Algerian war card now. She started it. He said he wants to look to the future. But then he mentions the Vel d'Hiv round up. I think he's on very weak ground when the reference is to past (and continuing) divisions in France.
A debacle for Macron. He's been found out and is in deep shit.
Monaco vs Juventus is a cracking match. A masterpiece of Italian defending and French flair.
Tis a bit of poor scheduling of the debate. There must be some audience crossover, particularly in Provence.
Yes, I can just see the good people of Provence mulling that one over: 'Football, debate....football, debate.....hmmmmm.'
Tough one....non.
Footy for me...
Wise choice. Your boy's getting caned.
Are you predicting a Le Pen victory on Sunday Monica?
If she wasn't carrying the baggage of the name of her party and her father, she would win this at a canter in Britain.
He's a throwback to Blair, a fifth rate Cameron.
I'm watching the football, like most people, so wouldn't know. I'd like to think the UK wouldn't elect a neo fascist on the basis of one debate, but given recent trends, you might be right.
Neo-fascist...islamist sympathiser.....what a choice they are presented with on the basis of this debate.
Theresa May has caused a storm from those who are Europhiles on here.
However, is any remainer willing to declare whether this has helped or hindered her election chances.
It won't have helped her with the Remainers as they are educated enough to see through all this play-acting. The Leavers on the other hand ....
That is the type of arrogant comment that has caused the leave vote
The Leavers voted Leave before the analysis was done that showed that, on average, they were older, poorer and less educated than the Remainers. The analysis didn't cause them to vote Leave. They didn't know just how poor, old and poorly educated they were at the time of the vote. Or perhaps they did and it pissed them off.
EDIT: To be clear - I'm not blaming them. They can't help being old, poor and less educated.
In the same way that you cant help being a grade A Pr!ck ??
Theresa May has caused a storm from those who are Europhiles on here.
However, is any remainer willing to declare whether this has helped or hindered her election chances.
It won't have helped her with the Remainers as they are educated enough to see through all this play-acting. The Leavers on the other hand ....
That is the type of arrogant comment that has caused the leave vote
EDIT: To be clear - I'm not blaming them. They can't help being old, poor and less educated.
It must hurt to lose to people who are less wise, wealthy, and well-born than you are.
Not sure about 'poorly educated' - the over 60s went to proper universities and got degrees in STEM subjects after doing O levels and A levels - the brats under 40 get GCSEs, study watered down subjects at micky-mouse colleges to get degrees not worth the parchment they're written on and wouldn't know the difference between absorb and adsorb.
If you don't believe me - ask any recruiter - or University lecturer.
Surely the point is only a smallish minority of over-60s went to university at all, and a large proportion will not have O-levels or A-levels, rather CSEs. Moreover, I think I am right in saying most universities down to the 1980s prioritised the liberal arts rather than STEM subjects? A lot of the tech (such as it was) and engineering would have been through polys, surely?
Polytechnics were safety nets for people who couldn't get into University - at my school we were advised to include one on our UCCA forms. Nowadays they are counted as real universities where uneducated kids listen to lectures by left-wing professors for the 2 days a week when they have courses for their degrees - and then those here on PB are surprised that the young are so much for remain/labour.
Polys had a seperate application process to UCCA as I recall.
Monaco vs Juventus is a cracking match. A masterpiece of Italian defending and French flair.
Tis a bit of poor scheduling of the debate. There must be some audience crossover, particularly in Provence.
I went to the Monaco v Man City game and Monaco were a very good side. Their pitch is above a car park so a thin layer of grass and then concrete. The City players were skidding around like they were on an ice rink. In the second half they got the hang of it and outplayed them and should have won.
Comments
Is there any chance that Juncker's leak, and May's speech, were planned at the dinner?
Otherwise umm, no, not really.
I wouldn't bet on it, but she's got a chance. The ICM unadjusted is turning out +21.
It's not always a good idea to appear the smartest kid in the class, even if you are.
Nick, you really need to move on. You made an appalling mistake and elected an utterly loathsome cretin who is about to finally destroy Labour. Well, we all mistakes. But trying to justify it simply makes it worse.
https://alexandreafonso.me/2017/04/30/the-social-basis-of-marine-le-pen-and-emmanuel-macron/
Tis a bit of poor scheduling of the debate. There must be some audience crossover, particularly in Provence.
Tough one....non.
Not necessary as it was overblown anywhere, but expect all the papers to have no perspective on this. That one is positively restrained compared to what I expect is coming.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/03/the-eu-sual-suspects-who-might-the-pm-think-is-meddling-theresa-may?
Though I think Barnier has played a pretty straight bat.....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1454155/University-lecturers-to-strike-over-pay.html
I voted remain in the referendum, but somewhat reluctantly. I felt, on balance, that remain was the right choice. But I have always been deeply concerned by the EUs lack of accountability and its seeming disregard for nation state democracy. Whilst I would be a keener supporter of a more accountable, democratic EU, I do feel there is very little chance of that coming about due to the entrenched position of those who wield power in Brussels.
I'm one of those people who was initially disappointed by the result, but who feels that it's now important to move on and make the best of it. I also think there needs to be some element of a clean break - a soft Brexit appears to me to be such an unattractive halfway house that you might as well remain in the club.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm concerned, but open-minded. It remains to be seen how well the Tories will handle Brexit negotiations - it's been a mixed bag so far. But I genuinely can't see any realistic alternative at the moment, so they've definitely got my vote this time. May does appear at least to be taking the pragmatic approach that I think is probably needed.
UCCA stood for Universities Central Council on Admissions as I recall, and Polys were not Universities, though some have become quite good universities since.
https://twitter.com/robdothutton/status/859810134503063557
He's a throwback to Blair, a fifth rate Cameron.
Didn't he threaten to walk out if his safe space was invaded?
https://twitter.com/BFMTV/status/859402583580049408
"I like the Franglais - le punching-ball"
(How many jews have left france in the last few years?)
"Robot" and "doesn't talk to public" failed yesterday, "mad warmonger" failing today. Pitiful.
Am I right in thinking Macron was not fantastic in the other debate either? Seems like be it policies or baggage will mean Le Pen has very little chance of winning though.
I voted Germany. It's the traditionalist in me.
They are both playing the Algerian war card now. She started it. He said he wants to look to the future. But then he mentions the Vel d'Hiv round up. I think he's on very weak ground when the reference is to past (and continuing) divisions in France.
Your comment on left-wing lecturers is also I would suggest wrong. You will find huge numbers of left-wingers in the red bricks and Oxbridge, and you will find plenty of right wingers in the former polys. Oxford Brookes, which until recent cuts had a history faculty that actually ranked above that of its more famous neighbour, has a head of department who considered Cameron a dangerous liberal. You might also be surprised to learn that more contact time is often required in the ex-polys for degree courses, although admittedly the students are on average less intelligent and may need it more.
You may find this of interest:
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04252/SN04252.pdf
The fact they are majority owned by the French government is an ancillary benefit
Not much rag trade left in Leicester to employ textile grads nowadays.
This might be it..
Or perhaps not.
Though if there is a Mayoral poll they've left it late.