I couldn't imagine May, Johnson or Davis being able to pull off a similar Q&A session with students in California about the 'opportunities' of Brexit. She's doing a fantastic job laying the groundwork internationally to prepare the world for the prospect of an independent Scotland.
California, especially around San Francisco as Stanford is was strongly for Hillary and thus would also have been strongly for Remain, just as it is the type of area to support the new California secessionist movement after Trump's win so it will also be sympathetic to a Scottish nationalist seeking to break away from the Leave voting UK
It's about as left wing an audience as one could find in the USA.
Tomorrow she goes to DC to find the second most leftwing
Well her soft left patter is hardly going to resonate with the good people of Oklahoma city
I thought Macron might have taken a bit of a risk with his "nationalism is war" quote, but apparently Francois Mitterand said something similiar so he should be ok with it.
Several of the candidates wouldn't be out of place haranguing innocent passers-by at Speakers' Corner..
So are Labour moderates actually going to do anything or just huff and puff?
I know what I'm expecting.
One or two will publicly say this was wrong, a dozen others will whine anonymously to journalists, two dozen will cry into their pillows, and everyone else doesn't care so long as the party sticks together, either in support of the Corbyn project or prepare his successor.
@PolhomeEditor: Labour MP: "Corbyn is adding insult to injury by putting Shami up to defend Livingstone. She has zero credibility and no self respect."
I had a lot of time for Shami when she first took over Liberty. Standing up against Blair and his oppressive legislation at a time when he could seeming do no wrong was brave. Unfortunately the years have no been kind to her and she seems to have completely sold out now.
Sounds remarkably like the arguments used against the minimum wage. I can assure you that my mother-in-law's shop does not need to open at 6am on Boxing Day to survive. It does so out of pure greed. She hasn't had three days off together at Christmas for 15 years. And she is fairly typical among retail workers.
I thought Macron might have taken a bit of a risk with his "nationalism is war" quote, but apparently Francois Mitterand said something similiar so he should be ok with it.
Several of the candidates wouldn't be out of place haranguing innocent passers-by at Speakers' Corner..
@lisanandy: Standing against racism is one of the many reasons I'm proud to be in the Labour Party. Today is a sad day for this movement.
The test of that will be the next time she gets an opportunity to condemn the Tories over something some idiot says (obviously the opportunity will occur), without acknowledging any comparable party culpability on shitty people.
I couldn't imagine May, Johnson or Davis being able to pull off a similar Q&A session with students in California about the 'opportunities' of Brexit. She's doing a fantastic job laying the groundwork internationally to prepare the world for the prospect of an independent Scotland.
Laying the groundwork of an independent Scotland with students of California?
Stanford today, Washington tomorrow.
Laying the groundwork for Scotland's independence which should coincide with President Kennedy's landslide 2024 win.
If California has not seceded from the Union first
I thought Macron might have taken a bit of a risk with his "nationalism is war" quote, but apparently Francois Mitterand said something similiar so he should be ok with it.
Several of the candidates wouldn't be out of place haranguing innocent passers-by at Speakers' Corner..
Correct. The upshot is that retail workers like my mother-in-law cannot see their grandchildren over Christmas because their mean employers make them work both Christmas Eve and Boxing Day.
Funnily enough, I know office based workers who get narked off about being forced to use some of their leave between Christmas and New Year.
I know someone who worked for a local authority. He invariably "volunteered" to go in between xmas and new year, spent 3 days doing absolutely sfa, and preserved his holiday entitlement for the summer.
I do that every year, although I do try to get some work done, its just the 'things that pop up' stuff doesn't occur then. Good time to tidy up errant files and plan out some stuff for the rest of the year.
Fair enough. Some people can use the time productively. Others languish in a comfortable semi-darkness without meetings, phone calls or emails.
My old company banned it because people were notionally coming in, then disappearing an hour later, and no-one was there in person or online to monitor it. I have never seen the point myself - with neither clients nor colleagues around there is very little you can do beyond tidying up the office.
I totally approve of the Great British Long Christmas. It's sad to see my US in-laws up betimes on Boxing Day, grafting that little bit extra for Uncle Sam. We have the late great Harold Wilson to thank, for making NYD a Bank Holiday, effectively declaring a 10-day or even a 14-day national holiday. As a natural small-c conservative I welcome this reversion to the agricultural calendar, not to mention the old Pagan solstice.
"A cold coming we had of it, Just the worst time of the year"
Correct. The upshot is that retail workers like my mother-in-law cannot see their grandchildren over Christmas because their mean employers make them work both Christmas Eve and Boxing Day.
Funnily enough, I know office based workers who get narked off about being forced to use some of their leave between Christmas and New Year.
I know someone who worked for a local authority. He invariably "volunteered" to go in between xmas and new year, spent 3 days doing absolutely sfa, and preserved his holiday entitlement for the summer.
I do that every year, although I do try to get some work done, its just the 'things that pop up' stuff doesn't occur then. Good time to tidy up errant files and plan out some stuff for the rest of the year.
Fair enough. Some people can use the time productively. Others languish in a comfortable semi-darkness without meetings, phone calls or emails.
My old company banned it because people were notionally coming in, then disappearing an hour later, and no-one was there in person or online to monitor it. I have never seen the point myself - with neither clients nor colleagues around there is very little you can do beyond tidying up the office.
I totally approve of the Great British Long Christmas. It's sad to see my US in-laws up betimes on Boxing Day, grafting that little bit extra for Uncle Sam. We have the late great Harold Wilson to thank, for making NYD a Bank Holiday, effectively declaring a 10-day or even a 14-day national holiday. As a natural small-c conservative I welcome this reversion to the agricultural calendar, not to mention the old Pagan solstice.
"A cold coming we had of it, Just the worst time of the year"
Correct. The upshot is that retail workers like my mother-in-law cannot see their grandchildren over Christmas because their mean employers make them work both Christmas Eve and Boxing Day.
Funnily enough, I know office based workers who get narked off about being forced to use some of their leave between Christmas and New Year.
I know someone who worked for a local authority. He invariably "volunteered" to go in between xmas and new year, spent 3 days doing absolutely sfa, and preserved his holiday entitlement for the summer.
I do that every year, although I do try to get some work done, its just the 'things that pop up' stuff doesn't occur then. Good time to tidy up errant files and plan out some stuff for the rest of the year.
Fair enough. Some people can use the time productively. Others languish in a comfortable semi-darkness without meetings, phone calls or emails.
My old company banned it because people were notionally coming in, then disappearing an hour later, and no-one was there in person or online to monitor it. I have never seen the point myself - with neither clients nor colleagues around there is very little you can do beyond tidying up the office.
I totally approve of the Great British Long Christmas. It's sad to see my US in-laws up betimes on Boxing Day, grafting that little bit extra for Uncle Sam. We have the late great Harold Wilson to thank, for making NYD a Bank Holiday, effectively declaring a 10-day or even a 14-day national holiday. As a natural small-c conservative I welcome this reversion to the agricultural calendar, not to mention the old Pagan solstice.
"A cold coming we had of it, Just the worst time of the year"
What's the point in pretending to work?
I like the quiet and it gives me more time off at times I prefer to be out and about. But most people adore the long break.
I couldn't imagine May, Johnson or Davis being able to pull off a similar Q&A session with students in California about the 'opportunities' of Brexit. She's doing a fantastic job laying the groundwork internationally to prepare the world for the prospect of an independent Scotland.
California, especially around San Francisco as Stanford is was strongly for Hillary and thus would also have been strongly for Remain, just as it is the type of area to support the new California secessionist movement after Trump's win so it will also be sympathetic to a Scottish nationalist seeking to break away from the Leave voting UK
It's about as left wing an audience as one could find in the USA.
I don't think so. It houses the Hoover Institute. Look elsewhere in the bay area for more lefty universities.
Labour seem intent on testing the no lower than 25% theory to destruction - just a shame the Mythbusters boys have hung up their spurs - I'd love to see them testing this "urban myth" !!
Labour seem intent on testing the no lower than 25% theory to destruction
Tonight's events won't shift it either way.
I'm not sure about that. This will piss off a section of Labour support that till now has been sticking in there.
Agree it could take another chunk out. It could also take another chunk from Corbyn's membership lifeline - but conscious that that might be wishful thinking on my part.
Why is anyone focusing on Livingstone.. He is part of Labour's problem, not the future.
I don't understand the fuss about Livingstone.
He said " Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews. "
This is either true or it's false. Surely it is easily checked?
If it is true, end of story.
If it is false, then Livingstone got his facts wrong but it is a bit of a stretch to say his remark was antisemitic (i.e. Jew-hating). What does it matter whether Hitler's policy in 1932 was that Jews should be moved to Israel or not? What matters is that he ended up killing six million Jews as Livingstone said. The response from many, including on here, is simply hysterical.
Sounds remarkably like the arguments used against the minimum wage. I can assure you that my mother-in-law's shop does not need to open at 6am on Boxing Day to survive. It does so out of pure greed. She hasn't had three days off together at Christmas for 15 years. And she is fairly typical among retail workers.
Taking advantage of the Boxing Day sales is nothing like the minimum wage, especially as you just take another day off instead
Labour seem intent on testing the no lower than 25% theory to destruction
Tonight's events won't shift it either way.
I'm not sure about that. This will piss off a section of Labour support that till now has been sticking in there.
Which one?
Biens pensants who to date have thought team Labour is more important than the current leadership. If they conclude that the rotten apples have infected too much of the basket, they'll be off.
Labour seem intent on testing the no lower than 25% theory to destruction
Tonight's events won't shift it either way.
I'm not sure about that. This will piss off a section of Labour support that till now has been sticking in there.
Which one?
Biens pensants who to date have thought team Labour is more important than the current leadership. If they conclude that the rotten apples have infected too much of the basket, they'll be off.
Sounds remarkably like the arguments used against the minimum wage. I can assure you that my mother-in-law's shop does not need to open at 6am on Boxing Day to survive. It does so out of pure greed. She hasn't had three days off together at Christmas for 15 years. And she is fairly typical among retail workers.
Taking advantage of the Boxing Day sales is nothing like the minimum wage, especially as you just take another day off instead
Another day != Boxing Day. "Stop whining grandma, I've already told you you can have Tuesday 17 January off. You can see your bloody grandson then."
Labour seem intent on testing the no lower than 25% theory to destruction
Tonight's events won't shift it either way.
I'm not sure about that. This will piss off a section of Labour support that till now has been sticking in there.
Which one?
Biens pensants who to date have thought team Labour is more important than the current leadership. If they conclude that the rotten apples have infected too much of the basket, they'll be off.
Labour seem intent on testing the no lower than 25% theory to destruction
Tonight's events won't shift it either way.
I'm not sure about that. This will piss off a section of Labour support that till now has been sticking in there.
Which one?
Biens pensants who to date have thought team Labour is more important than the current leadership. If they conclude that the rotten apples have infected too much of the basket, they'll be off.
You may turn out to be correct, but personally I suspect that most of them will regard any and all incidents of this type as so many side-shows, inflated beyond their true importance by the MSM/Tory right-wing press.
The only ones that appear to have quit in disgust are the Continuity Remainers, and that pool already appears to have been drained - hence the fact that the Lib Dems have advanced from about 8% to 10-11% in the polls, but now seem to be levelling off again.
There is a serious question here for MPs, in this case Labour but it applies to others. Loyalty is understandable; you like the values and achievements of a party, it supported you, it got you elected, you feel you owe it in return. But the question is this:
Hypothetically, is there any point that could be reached, or any action that might be taken, that would lead to you leaving the party and actively fighting against what it has become, a point or action where staying inside and fighting within the party, is a lost cause?
If the answer to the hypothetical is no, as it is for most, then you are a fanatical party robot at heart, and sadness displayed at awful things in the party is probably just faulty programming that won't override core directive, and if you won't act then stop acting like you will. If the answer to the hypothetical is yes, then consider what your lines truly are, be clear with yourself if not others what you will no longer accept.
Labour seem intent on testing the no lower than 25% theory to destruction
Tonight's events won't shift it either way.
I'm not sure about that. This will piss off a section of Labour support that till now has been sticking in there.
Which one?
Biens pensants who to date have thought team Labour is more important than the current leadership. If they conclude that the rotten apples have infected too much of the basket, they'll be off.
Sounds remarkably like the arguments used against the minimum wage. I can assure you that my mother-in-law's shop does not need to open at 6am on Boxing Day to survive. It does so out of pure greed. She hasn't had three days off together at Christmas for 15 years. And she is fairly typical among retail workers.
Taking advantage of the Boxing Day sales is nothing like the minimum wage, especially as you just take another day off instead
Another day != Boxing Day. "Stop whining grandma, I've already told you you can have Tuesday 17 January off. You can see your bloody grandson then."
Well she can, half the relatives have gone by lunchtime on Boxing Day if not before and apart from a brief walk most of it is spent in front of the TV
Why is anyone focusing on Livingstone.. He is part of Labour's problem, not the future.
I don't understand the fuss about Livingstone.
He said " Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews. "
This is either true or it's false. Surely it is easily checked?
If it is true, end of story.
If it is false, then Livingstone got his facts wrong but it is a bit of a stretch to say his remark was antisemitic (i.e. Jew-hating). What does it matter whether Hitler's policy in 1932 was that Jews should be moved to Israel or not? What matters is that he ended up killing six million Jews as Livingstone said. The response from many, including on here, is simply hysterical.
Ken has said plenty else around all this which place all his remarks in specific contexts, it's not about a single remark.
Campaign Against Anti-Semitism: “This surely represents the death throes of the Labour Party’s long relationship with the Jewish community.”
Holocaust Educational Trust: “This verdict is a slap on the wrist for a serial offender. That a mainstream political party would consider these views to be welcome within their ranks simply demonstrates that antisemitism is not taken as seriously as all other forms of racism and prejudice.”
Jewish Labour Movement: “This is a betrayal of our Party’s values. One year suspension allows for a revolving door for repeat offenders.”
CST: “This decision strengthens real anti-Semites and their fellow travellers, and will leave the Jewish community less confident than ever that Labour is serious in dealing with anti-Semitism.”
Luciana Berger: “A new low for my party this evening. Appalling decision. Why is antisemitism being treated differently from any other form of racism?”
Wes Streeting: “So much for zero tolerance approach to antisemitism – this is a terrible betrayal of Jewish Labour supporters and our values.”
Michael Dugher: “Is the party really saying it knows more about antisemitism than the Chief Rabbi?”
Tulip Siddiq: “Absolutely ridiculous. Why has this man not been expelled?!”
John Woodcock: “This pathetic Livingstone sentence is an important moment Labour members: do we stand for decency against this or are we part of the decay?”
Communities Secretary Sajid Javid: “Astonishing and wrong that Ken Livingstone has not been expelled. His repeated and offensive comments are totally and utterly unacceptable.”
Shami Chakrabarti: “Labour is the party of both equality and natural justice.”
Sounds remarkably like the arguments used against the minimum wage. I can assure you that my mother-in-law's shop does not need to open at 6am on Boxing Day to survive. It does so out of pure greed. She hasn't had three days off together at Christmas for 15 years. And she is fairly typical among retail workers.
Taking advantage of the Boxing Day sales is nothing like the minimum wage, especially as you just take another day off instead
Another day != Boxing Day. "Stop whining grandma, I've already told you you can have Tuesday 17 January off. You can see your bloody grandson then."
Well she can, half the relatives have gone by lunchtime on Boxing Day if not before and apart from a brief walk most of it is spent in front of the TV
Except he's at school and she doesn't get to see him open his presents, nor have Christmas lunch with him.
Sounds remarkably like the arguments used against the minimum wage. I can assure you that my mother-in-law's shop does not need to open at 6am on Boxing Day to survive. It does so out of pure greed. She hasn't had three days off together at Christmas for 15 years. And she is fairly typical among retail workers.
Taking advantage of the Boxing Day sales is nothing like the minimum wage, especially as you just take another day off instead
Another day != Boxing Day. "Stop whining grandma, I've already told you you can have Tuesday 17 January off. You can see your bloody grandson then."
Well she can, half the relatives have gone by lunchtime on Boxing Day if not before and apart from a brief walk most of it is spent in front of the TV
Except he's at school and she doesn't get to see him open his presents, nor have Christmas lunch with him.
Have Christmas Dinner in the evening and open the presents then, problem solved, that is what my uncle did and there are things called school holidays and half term
I'm going to be controversial and say I think Labour have reached their floor of 25%ish, and nothing that happens between now and 2020 will probably see them drop any lower for the GE itself (though they might dip below now and then).
Interesting decision. Labour can probably forget about winning Hendon and Finchley at the next election.
Wonder if the bookmakers will offer odds on Labour gaining no seats at all from any other party at the next GE - and, if so, how short they would be?
I can't see many possibles at all - East Renfrewshire an outside chance maybe ? Croydon Central ? I think those stay SNP/Con respectively. It is odds against that they gain any at all I think though. This is quite different to 2015 where Lab/Con seats were basically a wash.
Sounds remarkably like the arguments used against the minimum wage. I can assure you that my mother-in-law's shop does not need to open at 6am on Boxing Day to survive. It does so out of pure greed. She hasn't had three days off together at Christmas for 15 years. And she is fairly typical among retail workers.
Taking advantage of the Boxing Day sales is nothing like the minimum wage, especially as you just take another day off instead
Another day != Boxing Day. "Stop whining grandma, I've already told you you can have Tuesday 17 January off. You can see your bloody grandson then."
Well she can, half the relatives have gone by lunchtime on Boxing Day if not before and apart from a brief walk most of it is spent in front of the TV
Except he's at school and she doesn't get to see him open his presents, nor have Christmas lunch with him.
Have Christmas Dinner in the evening and open the presents then, problem solved, that is what my uncle did and there are things called school holidays and half term
I'm going to be controversial and say I think Labour have reached their floor of 25%ish, and nothing that happens between now and 2020 will probably see them drop any lower for the GE itself (though they might dip below now and then).
An interesting GE market would be which will be the bigger number
Sounds remarkably like the arguments used against the minimum wage. I can assure you that my mother-in-law's shop does not need to open at 6am on Boxing Day to survive. It does so out of pure greed. She hasn't had three days off together at Christmas for 15 years. And she is fairly typical among retail workers.
Taking advantage of the Boxing Day sales is nothing like the minimum wage, especially as you just take another day off instead
Another day != Boxing Day. "Stop whining grandma, I've already told you you can have Tuesday 17 January off. You can see your bloody grandson then."
Well she can, half the relatives have gone by lunchtime on Boxing Day if not before and apart from a brief walk most of it is spent in front of the TV
Except he's at school and she doesn't get to see him open his presents, nor have Christmas lunch with him.
Have Christmas Dinner in the evening and open the presents then, problem solved, that is what my uncle did and there are things called school holidays and half term
She lives 300 miles away
If someone has work commitments like that, surely you try your best to work around them? We often had Christmas celebrations days after the fact with some of our relatives.
I'm going to be controversial and say I think Labour have reached their floor of 25%ish, and nothing that happens between now and 2020 will probably see them drop any lower for the GE itself (though they might dip below now and then).
I think Corbyn can shave a third off Gordon's vote total. 20% is their floor in my view.
They will be down about three quarters of a million in Scotland alone, while the polling suggests about 25% of English Northern/Midlands voters will walk away from the current incarnation of Labour.
There was a subsample yesterday that had Labour leading the Tories 44-33 among BAME voters. That used to be 70-20 or thereabouts.
Was the Easter egg squirrel a planned distraction from a climb down on getting a free trade deal within the A50 negotiations? Now they're floating the prospect of continuing free movement during the transition.
The Chairman and Chief Executive of J P Morgan has admitted he will move hardly any jobs out of Britain in the next two years as a result of Brexit in a U turn on his pre referendum warning that a vote to leave the EU could mean as many as 4,000 jobs moving across the channel
Going a step further he warned it is the EU itself, not the UK, that potentially faces wider problems. He went on to say the Bank will need to obtain licences and permissions to operate across the EU but that it will still be able to service European clients from the UK.
He said this does not entail moving many people in the next two years in a letter to shareholders.
I'm going to be controversial and say I think Labour have reached their floor of 25%ish, and nothing that happens between now and 2020 will probably see them drop any lower for the GE itself (though they might dip below now and then).
I've had my doubts about this recently, but am gradually working my way back towards your position. Well, possibly if there's some degree of pro-Lab/anti-Con bias still present in the polls then the final value might be a little below 25%, but probably not by that much.
Much of Labour's 2015 vote has already gone to other parties, but the rot appears to have stopped: the further you dig down into Labour's core, the more difficult the remaining voters become to chip off. There's now more than enough evidence to confirm a modest Lib Dem recovery, but their numbers appear to be levelling off again as they max out the available poll of distraught Europhiles willing to defect.
Barring a total disaster over Brexit or the fall of Corbyn - and there appears to be little evidence to suggest the advent of either at present - then one would suggest that the determining factor in whether the Tories win by less or more than a 20% margin is how much of the remaining Ukip vote is still available for them to mine.
Sounds remarkably like the arguments used against the minimum wage. I can assure you that my mother-in-law's shop does not need to open at 6am on Boxing Day to survive. It does so out of pure greed. She hasn't had three days off together at Christmas for 15 years. And she is fairly typical among retail workers.
Taking advantage of the Boxing Day sales is nothing like the minimum wage, especially as you just take another day off instead
Another day != Boxing Day. "Stop whining grandma, I've already told you you can have Tuesday 17 January off. You can see your bloody grandson then."
Well she can, half the relatives have gone by lunchtime on Boxing Day if not before and apart from a brief walk most of it is spent in front of the TV
Except he's at school and she doesn't get to see him open his presents, nor have Christmas lunch with him.
Have Christmas Dinner in the evening and open the presents then, problem solved, that is what my uncle did and there are things called school holidays and half term
She lives 300 miles away
Well surely the family can go up to visit her and do something in the day, after all she would have to travel 300 miles to go down and visit them for Christmas anyway
Was the Easter egg squirrel a planned distraction from a climb down on getting a free trade deal within the A50 negotiations? Now they're floating the prospect of continuing free movement during the transition.
Not sure free movement during the transition qualifies as a climbdown. If they were saying it would continue after the transition that would be another matter.
I'm going to be controversial and say I think Labour have reached their floor of 25%ish, and nothing that happens between now and 2020 will probably see them drop any lower for the GE itself (though they might dip below now and then).
An interesting GE market would be which will be the bigger number
I'm going to be controversial and say I think Labour have reached their floor of 25%ish, and nothing that happens between now and 2020 will probably see them drop any lower for the GE itself (though they might dip below now and then).
I think Corbyn can shave a third off Gordon's vote total. 20% is their floor in my view.
They will be down about three quarters of a million in Scotland alone, while the polling suggests about 25% of English Northern/Midlands voters will walk away from the current incarnation of Labour.
There was a subsample yesterday that had Labour leading the Tories 44-33 among BAME voters. That used to be 70-20 or thereabouts.
25%, even 20% of voters is still the main opposition party and a fifth to a quarter of the electorate for socialism in Corbyn's eyes
Was the Easter egg squirrel a planned distraction from a climb down on getting a free trade deal within the A50 negotiations? Now they're floating the prospect of continuing free movement during the transition.
It was never realistic to get it in 2 years, Canada took much longer, at best it will be a few bilateral agreements with the EU in a few key sectors before Brexit
Was the Easter egg squirrel a planned distraction from a climb down on getting a free trade deal within the A50 negotiations? Now they're floating the prospect of continuing free movement during the transition.
How do you please this guy?! Corbyn complaints people don;t report on what Labour are doing, but they don't want reporting on what Labour is doing re Ken? Chakrabarti sees it is as a huge positive, why not report it widely?
Why is anyone focusing on Livingstone.. He is part of Labour's problem, not the future.
I don't understand the fuss about Livingstone.
He said " Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews. "
This is either true or it's false. Surely it is easily checked?
If it is true, end of story.
If it is false, then Livingstone got his facts wrong but it is a bit of a stretch to say his remark was antisemitic (i.e. Jew-hating). What does it matter whether Hitler's policy in 1932 was that Jews should be moved to Israel or not? What matters is that he ended up killing six million Jews as Livingstone said. The response from many, including on here, is simply hysterical.
Ken has said plenty else around all this which place all his remarks in specific contexts, it's not about a single remark.
He is pointing out the difference between antisemitism on the one hand, and anti-Zionism and anti-Israeli government policy on the other. There is an agenda that conflates the two so that you cannot criticise the Israeli government without being accused of antisemitism.
The tactic is transparent. It's been discussed on this board many times. The reaction to Livingstone's comments are either hysterical or deeply cynical.
He is pointing out the difference between antisemitism on the one hand, and anti-Zionism and anti-Israeli government policy on the other. There is an agenda that conflates the two so that you cannot criticise the Israeli government without being accused of antisemitism.
The tactic is transparent. It's been discussed on this board many times. The reaction to Livingstone's comment are either hysterical or deeply cynical.
Indeed. Ken Livingstone is right. He has more principle and character than all his opponents added together, whatever party they're in. It's a shame that when Jeremy Corbyn was asked by that Commons committee whether he "recognised" the Zionist state's "right to exist" he didn't answer "Hell no, I absolutely do not recognise the right of that racist regime to exist". Everything was bound to be downhill from the moment he couldn't find it in himself to say that.
I'm going to be controversial and say I think Labour have reached their floor of 25%ish, and nothing that happens between now and 2020 will probably see them drop any lower for the GE itself (though they might dip below now and then).
An interesting GE market would be which will be the bigger number
1) The increase in the Tory share of the vote
or
2) The decline in the Labour share of the vote.
Probably (1) I would've thought.
I think that is almost the same as: which will be the bigger number:
Comments
I know what I'm expecting.
Sounds remarkably like the arguments used against the minimum wage. I can assure you that my mother-in-law's shop does not need to open at 6am on Boxing Day to survive. It does so out of pure greed. She hasn't had three days off together at Christmas for 15 years. And she is fairly typical among retail workers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California,_Falkirk
"A cold coming we had of it,
Just the worst time of the year"
What's the point in pretending to work?
Even Rasmussen has him on 57% disapproval.
The downward trend is rapid.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/
This must be eating him up.
Melenchon is good, probably the best, luckily for him the other left ones are pretty poor. Hamon is dire so may lose more votes.
Answer: f**k all. Probably.
Whilst what you say is correct, its too late for that. Labour's future is assured. Its a question of whether as TSE put it its going to be an ELE.
He said " Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews. "
This is either true or it's false. Surely it is easily checked?
If it is true, end of story.
If it is false, then Livingstone got his facts wrong but it is a bit of a stretch to say his remark was antisemitic (i.e. Jew-hating). What does it matter whether Hitler's policy in 1932 was that Jews should be moved to Israel or not? What matters is that he ended up killing six million Jews as Livingstone said. The response from many, including on here, is simply hysterical.
March 3;
"If I could understand french (and had bigger balls), I'd probably lay Juppe @ <4/1 for thousands right now.
In fact, put that bet down as a Pong paper trade."
http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/1458242#Comment_1458242
At this point last month, the market had got way ahead of itself on Juppe.
Is there value in the market right now? I think there is.
The only ones that appear to have quit in disgust are the Continuity Remainers, and that pool already appears to have been drained - hence the fact that the Lib Dems have advanced from about 8% to 10-11% in the polls, but now seem to be levelling off again.
Hypothetically, is there any point that could be reached, or any action that might be taken, that would lead to you leaving the party and actively fighting against what it has become, a point or action where staying inside and fighting within the party, is a lost cause?
If the answer to the hypothetical is no, as it is for most, then you are a fanatical party robot at heart, and sadness displayed at awful things in the party is probably just faulty programming that won't override core directive, and if you won't act then stop acting like you will. If the answer to the hypothetical is yes, then consider what your lines truly are, be clear with yourself if not others what you will no longer accept.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/04/ken-livingstone-escapes-expulsion-labour-party-claims-zionists/
Camera shows Fillon nodding and smiling.
Reaction:
Campaign Against Anti-Semitism: “This surely represents the death throes of the Labour Party’s long relationship with the Jewish community.”
Holocaust Educational Trust: “This verdict is a slap on the wrist for a serial offender. That a mainstream political party would consider these views to be welcome within their ranks simply demonstrates that antisemitism is not taken as seriously as all other forms of racism and prejudice.”
Jewish Labour Movement: “This is a betrayal of our Party’s values. One year suspension allows for a revolving door for repeat offenders.”
CST: “This decision strengthens real anti-Semites and their fellow travellers, and will leave the Jewish community less confident than ever that Labour is serious in dealing with anti-Semitism.”
Luciana Berger: “A new low for my party this evening. Appalling decision. Why is antisemitism being treated differently from any other form of racism?”
Wes Streeting: “So much for zero tolerance approach to antisemitism – this is a terrible betrayal of Jewish Labour supporters and our values.”
Michael Dugher: “Is the party really saying it knows more about antisemitism than the Chief Rabbi?”
Tulip Siddiq: “Absolutely ridiculous. Why has this man not been expelled?!”
John Woodcock: “This pathetic Livingstone sentence is an important moment Labour members: do we stand for decency against this or are we part of the decay?”
Communities Secretary Sajid Javid: “Astonishing and wrong that Ken Livingstone has not been expelled. His repeated and offensive comments are totally and utterly unacceptable.”
Shami Chakrabarti: “Labour is the party of both equality and natural justice.”
https://twitter.com/NickCohen4/status/849366812252876800
Labour, what the fuck are you becoming?
It is odds against that they gain any at all I think though. This is quite different to 2015 where Lab/Con seats were basically a wash.
1) The increase in the Tory share of the vote
or
2) The decline in the Labour share of the vote.
They will be down about three quarters of a million in Scotland alone, while the polling suggests about 25% of English Northern/Midlands voters will walk away from the current incarnation of Labour.
There was a subsample yesterday that had Labour leading the Tories 44-33 among BAME voters. That used to be 70-20 or thereabouts.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/04/free-movement-will-go-on-in-transition-after-brexit-theresa-may
Going a step further he warned it is the EU itself, not the UK, that potentially faces wider problems. He went on to say the Bank will need to obtain licences and permissions to operate across the EU but that it will still be able to service European clients from the UK.
He said this does not entail moving many people in the next two years in a letter to shareholders.
Much of Labour's 2015 vote has already gone to other parties, but the rot appears to have stopped: the further you dig down into Labour's core, the more difficult the remaining voters become to chip off. There's now more than enough evidence to confirm a modest Lib Dem recovery, but their numbers appear to be levelling off again as they max out the available poll of distraught Europhiles willing to defect.
Barring a total disaster over Brexit or the fall of Corbyn - and there appears to be little evidence to suggest the advent of either at present - then one would suggest that the determining factor in whether the Tories win by less or more than a 20% margin is how much of the remaining Ukip vote is still available for them to mine.
Anyone..??
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-anti-semitism-row-full-transcript-of-ken-livingstones-interviews-a7005311.html
He is pointing out the difference between antisemitism on the one hand, and anti-Zionism and anti-Israeli government policy on the other. There is an agenda that conflates the two so that you cannot criticise the Israeli government without being accused of antisemitism.
The tactic is transparent. It's been discussed on this board many times. The reaction to Livingstone's comments are either hysterical or deeply cynical.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/jeremy-corbyn/news/84852/excl-polling-expert-warns-deep
1) The decline in the UKIP vote
or
2) The increase in the LibDem vote.
Probably (1) I would've thought.