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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Can we end this “snap election” speculation – TMay, like Dave

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  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,311

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I'd love to understand the psychology behind Ken Livingstone's obsession with Hitler.

    Does he admire him? Does he think he's misunderstood?

    What is it?

    I think it actually stems from an obsession with Israel and Jews, not necessarily anti-Semitism as such, but a definite and peculiar fascination, which can often be found in highly political people. So the Hitler thing is a product of that.
    Which begs another question.
    It's not hard to see why highly political people would become fascinated by the Jews, as so many modern political movements stem partly or wholly from "Jewish" ideas and thinkers, and so many prominent politicians and political writers are Jewish.

    If you're a Marxist, like Ken, you believe in a political and economic system devised by a Jew, Karl Marx, and first enacted in Russia, where Jews were very prominent in the early days (e.g. Trotsky).

    Look at Britain's recent party leaders - David Cameron, partly Jewish. Nick Clegg, partly Jewish, Ed Miliband, Jewish.

    etc etc
    I didn't think Ken was a fan, and got the impression he rather admired Hitler's "solutions".
    The left fell out of love with Jews and Israel when they became strong.

    Poor, downtrodden Jews = people we should be helping to become strong; strong Jews = oppressors of the people.
    Probably more they dislike the capitalist ones.

    Many of the early emigrants to Israel - as well as voters in the UK - were quite socialist.

    That has now changed. The Reagan/Thatcher mutual admiration in the 80s probably didn't help either.
    As mentioned to Sean, I count being a capitalist as having moved from being poor to being rich, so yes.

    As for Israel, when it was a socialist paradise forming itself after WWII it attracted a lot of sympathy from global socialists. When the country then achieved success both economically and, especially, militarily, that sympathy evaporated.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    OT

    How to explain a "contrived vote of no confidence" within the next two years?

    Answer: For Theresa May to herself make a statement that she has no confidence that her government could definitely win a vote on the final Brexit deal, and that rather than jeopardise the UK's negotiating position she will resign and move a vote of no confidence in order to secure an increased majority.

    At worse that's a minor embarrassment, no worse than all the other embarrassments that this government has suffered (e.g. u-turns on flagship proposals in successive Budgets) from which the Conservatives' polling has emerged unscathed. Nothing in that process should cause the Conservatives any fear.

    Furthermore, it would be necessary to seek a contrived vote of no confidence only after Labour had failed to back a prior motion seeking an early election, which in itself would be just as embarrassing for an opposition that has hitherto called for an early election and is pretending that it is in a position to contend for power. And if Corbyn did become PM for a few days in the 14 day period of grace, before failing his own vote of confidence, the reminder to the electorate that that state could become permanent after a general election would not I suggest enhance Labour's chances given his lamentable personal polling.

    So I agree that we may well not have an early election, but it'll be because the PM doesn't wish to force one, not because she doesn't have the means to.

    It would doubtless take Corbyn a few days to form a Government and by the time the House of Commons defeats him in an Affirmative Confidence Vote the 14 days may well have expired. A Dissolution would then follow automatically with perhaps Corbyn as effectively caretaker PM for the duration of the campaign. I cannot see May wanting to risk that!
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    stodge said:


    Correct.

    I just have a feeling the EU wants to try and force the UK into continuing to pay into the EU budget, plus following a lot of regulations, plus having the ECJ rule on it, without having any votes in the EU political institutions, plus allowing almost unchanged free migration, and stopping any trade deals for three years after, and drastically restricting the scope of those too.

    And, I'm just not sure that will wash.

    I don't obviously know but that might well be the EU Commission's opening negotiating position - it makes sense for them particularly from a financial standpoint to have the UK continuing to contribute.

    Obviously, that wouldn't be acceptable to us at all and that's the art of negotiation.

    One thing the UK will need to have for Day 1 outside the EU is a clear immigration policy or, more precisely, a clear view on the status of EU nationals currently resident and any future migrants into the UK from the EU countries. Genuine refugees are already catered for under existing international treaties, I believe.

    As we technically can't even begin to negotiate free trade deals with other countries until we've left the EU, we'll need some transitional arrangements until we agree some FTA arrangements (which with some countries will be quick and with others a lot slower).

    The workload is therefore much greater than just the EU and a number of key areas will have to be ready for Day 1 post-EU even if a broader treaty with the EU hasn't been concluded.

    Would making an annual contribution really be that unacceptable? If May got a pretty good FTA with the EU, but there was a price tag of (say) £2bn/year contributions to the EU budget, I think she'd be mad to say no!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Mr. Topping, aye, the old Jurgen the German tourist line [I was going to type it out but given past incidents thought it best not to].
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,311
    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I'd love to understand the psychology behind Ken Livingstone's obsession with Hitler.

    Does he admire him? Does he think he's misunderstood?

    What is it?

    I think it actually stems from an obsession with Israel and Jews, not necessarily anti-Semitism as such, but a definite and peculiar fascination, which can often be found in highly political people. So the Hitler thing is a product of that.
    Which begs another question.
    It's not hard to see why highly political people would become fascinated by the Jews, as so many modern political movements stem partly or wholly from "Jewish" ideas and thinkers, and so many prominent politicians and political writers are Jewish.

    If you're a Marxist, like Ken, you believe in a political and economic system devised by a Jew, Karl Marx, and first enacted in Russia, where Jews were very prominent in the early days (e.g. Trotsky).

    Look at Britain's recent party leaders - David Cameron, partly Jewish. Nick Clegg, partly Jewish, Ed Miliband, Jewish.

    etc etc
    I didn't think Ken was a fan, and got the impression he rather admired Hitler's "solutions".
    The left fell out of love with Jews and Israel when they became strong.

    Poor, downtrodden Jews = people we should be helping to become strong; strong Jews = oppressors of the people.
    No. Leftwing anti-Semitism goes back much further than that (if you mean the rise of Israel). Lenin became somewhat anti-Semitic towards the end (after initially being pro-Jewish), Stalin was seriously anti-Semitic.

    And Jews = rich capitalists, for many lefties, from the start.

    Well before they were rich capitalists they were poor Jews.
    Jews were powerful and influential in the Roman Empire, until the Romans turned on them.
    Indeed they were. And were poor for the following 17 centuries.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    RobD said:

    stodge said:


    Correct.

    I just have a feeling the EU wants to try and force the UK into continuing to pay into the EU budget, plus following a lot of regulations, plus having the ECJ rule on it, without having any votes in the EU political institutions, plus allowing almost unchanged free migration, and stopping any trade deals for three years after, and drastically restricting the scope of those too.

    And, I'm just not sure that will wash.

    I don't obviously know but that might well be the EU Commission's opening negotiating position - it makes sense for them particularly from a financial standpoint to have the UK continuing to contribute.

    Obviously, that wouldn't be acceptable to us at all and that's the art of negotiation.

    One thing the UK will need to have for Day 1 outside the EU is a clear immigration policy or, more precisely, a clear view on the status of EU nationals currently resident and any future migrants into the UK from the EU countries. Genuine refugees are already catered for under existing international treaties, I believe.

    As we technically can't even begin to negotiate free trade deals with other countries until we've left the EU, we'll need some transitional arrangements until we agree some FTA arrangements (which with some countries will be quick and with others a lot slower).

    The workload is therefore much greater than just the EU and a number of key areas will have to be ready for Day 1 post-EU even if a broader treaty with the EU hasn't been concluded.

    Would making an annual contribution really be that unacceptable? If May got a pretty good FTA with the EU, but there was a price tag of (say) £2bn/year contributions to the EU budget, I think she'd be mad to say no!
    That FTA would have to cover a decent deal for financial services for it to be worth anything. Otherwise, why not just go the CETA route? How much did Canada agree to pay towards the EU budget?
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    RobD said:



    She did?

    In classic May style she used a lot of words to say not a lot and you can interpret the following section of her speech in multiple ways.

    In areas like agriculture, fisheries, and the environment, the devolution settlements in effect devolved to the legislatures in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast the power to implement EU directives in these areas, within a common EU framework.

    The essential common standards which underpinthe operation of a single market were provided at the European level.

    As we bring powers and control back to the United Kingdom, we must ensure that right powers sit at the right level to ensure our United Kingdom can operate effectively and in the interests of all of its citizens, including people in Scotland.

    We must also ensure that the UK which emerges from the EU is able to strike the best possible trade deals internationally.

    In short, we must avoid any unintended consequences for the coherence and integrity of a devolved United Kingdom as a result of our leaving the EU.

    As I have made clear repeatedly, no decisions currently taken by the Scottish Parliament will be removed from them.

    While the SNP propose that decision-making should remain in Brussels, we will use the opportunity of Brexit to ensure that more decisions are devolvedback into the hands of the Scottish people.

    Our aim will be to achieve the most effective arrangements to maintain and strengthen the United Kingdom, while also respecting the devolution settlements, and we will work constructively with the devolved administrations on that basis.

    But unlike any of the individual devolved administrations, the United Kingdom Parliament is elected by the whole UK, and the UK Government serves the whole UK.

    That places on us a unique responsibility to preserve the integrity and future viability of the United Kingdom, which we will not shirk.
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Alistair said:

    RobD said:



    She did?

    In classic May style she used a lot of words to say not a lot and you can interpret the following section of her speech in multiple ways.

    In areas like agriculture, fisheries, and the environment, the devolution settlements in effect devolved to the legislatures in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast the power to implement EU directives in these areas, within a common EU framework.

    The essential common standards which underpinthe operation of a single market were provided at the European level.

    As we bring powers and control back to the United Kingdom, we must ensure that right powers sit at the right level to ensure our United Kingdom can operate effectively and in the interests of all of its citizens, including people in Scotland.

    We must also ensure that the UK which emerges from the EU is able to strike the best possible trade deals internationally.

    In short, we must avoid any unintended consequences for the coherence and integrity of a devolved United Kingdom as a result of our leaving the EU.

    As I have made clear repeatedly, no decisions currently taken by the Scottish Parliament will be removed from them.

    While the SNP propose that decision-making should remain in Brussels, we will use the opportunity of Brexit to ensure that more decisions are devolvedback into the hands of the Scottish people.

    Our aim will be to achieve the most effective arrangements to maintain and strengthen the United Kingdom, while also respecting the devolution settlements, and we will work constructively with the devolved administrations on that basis.

    But unlike any of the individual devolved administrations, the United Kingdom Parliament is elected by the whole UK, and the UK Government serves the whole UK.

    That places on us a unique responsibility to preserve the integrity and future viability of the United Kingdom, which we will not shirk.
    We shall be flexible, yet firm.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,625
    Is this a story about George Osborne?

    "Low-ability youngsters from wealthy families go on to earn more money than their more gifted, poorer counterparts, says the Education Secretary Justine Greening."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-39444993

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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,358
    SeanT said:

    stodge said:


    If I was HMG, I'd be undertaking full contingency planning for us leaving with no deal whatsoever in anything in (now just under) 2 years time. That would include emergency legislation, and mitigation measures, including tax/regulatory changes, and crash trade deals for the 18 months thereafter.

    I can see the UK and EU misreading each other all the way down the line, and it actually happening.

    Probably a 30-40% chance.

    Not just Government, all organisations should be making similar plans.

    Correct.

    I just have a feeling the EU wants to try and force the UK into continuing to pay into the EU budget, plus following a lot of regulations, plus having the ECJ rule on it, without having any votes in the EU political institutions, plus allowing almost unchanged free migration, and stopping any trade deals for three years after, and drastically restricting the scope of those too.

    And, I'm just not sure that will wash.
    I think quite a few members of the EP want that, and maybe some commissioners. I am sure most if not all national EU leaders do not, they know how much a Crash Brexit would damage the European economy as a whole, and therefore their own popularity.

    And it's the national leaders who will steer this, in the end.
    Nevertheless, I think we should plan for it.

    It's far from impossible if they stay hyper-emotional. And that affects me too: I can feel my attitude hardening too.
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    frpenkridgefrpenkridge Posts: 670
    Today is the 30th March, so these sentiments (with global warming) are just about appropriate...............
    "Life is not a highway strewn with flowers
    Still it holds a goodly share of bliss
    When the sun gives way to April showers
    Here is the point you should never miss
    Though April showers may come your way
    They bring the flowers that bloom in May
    So if it's raining have no regrets
    Because it isn't raining rain you know, it's raining violets
    And where you see clouds upon the hills
    You soon will see crowds of daffodils
    So keep on looking for a blue bird
    And list'ning…
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    What's the most feasible situation in which there's an early election?

    There must be some chance that a GE gets called because TMay loses control of the Commons eg in the event of a mass backbench flounce-off to the European New Democrats: Negate Brexit party. The END-Brexit lot might be quite keen for a fresh set of elections to reverse the referendum result. Rump Labour might concur e.g. if they think that the Tories are most vulnerable in the immediate aftermath of a big MP revolt against what is now an unpopular Brexit position, while the new party is most dangerous if given the full parliamentary term to organise its mass movement.

    This is very very hypothetical. But may be marginally more likely than TMay deliberately calling a GE, bearing in mind she doesn't seem to have the tools to do so.

    The other thing to keep an eye on is the expenses issue, obviously.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,358
    stodge said:


    Correct.

    I just have a feeling the EU wants to try and force the UK into continuing to pay into the EU budget, plus following a lot of regulations, plus having the ECJ rule on it, without having any votes in the EU political institutions, plus allowing almost unchanged free migration, and stopping any trade deals for three years after, and drastically restricting the scope of those too.

    And, I'm just not sure that will wash.

    I don't obviously know but that might well be the EU Commission's opening negotiating position - it makes sense for them particularly from a financial standpoint to have the UK continuing to contribute.

    Obviously, that wouldn't be acceptable to us at all and that's the art of negotiation.

    One thing the UK will need to have for Day 1 outside the EU is a clear immigration policy or, more precisely, a clear view on the status of EU nationals currently resident and any future migrants into the UK from the EU countries. Genuine refugees are already catered for under existing international treaties, I believe.

    As we technically can't even begin to negotiate free trade deals with other countries until we've left the EU, we'll need some transitional arrangements until we agree some FTA arrangements (which with some countries will be quick and with others a lot slower).

    The workload is therefore much greater than just the EU and a number of key areas will have to be ready for Day 1 post-EU even if a broader treaty with the EU hasn't been concluded.

    Well, they won't get any money if it happens and probably a semi-hostile UK on their doorstep not inclined to cooperate anymore than what is immediately and directly in their national interest, so there is some realpolitik driving the EU to a deal too.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited March 2017
    Dear me, even Lord Mandelson - one of the two* most talented UK politicians of the last quarter-century - seems to have lost the plot and become enfeebled:

    Resist: We have vocally to oppose what we don't agree with – we have to challenge and controversialise [sic] decisions so ‘new norms’ don't materialise. That is why pro-refugee, anti-Trump demos, the Gina Miller case, new newspapers or campaigns against hard Brexit are so important.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/peter-mandelson-slams-jeremy-corbyn-and-keir-starmer-not-acting-national

    * The other being Osborne, of course
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,071

    Fck me, not making it up as they go along at all.

    Can your lot please put the UK out of its misery as soon as possible? This is embarrassing.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    RobD said:

    Mrs May knows how the spineless entity known as The Labour Party works. If she forced a no-confidence motion then Corbyn would accept the PMship and the supine Labourites would fall in behind him awaiting his patronage.

    Would he even be offered it? He can't command the confidence of his own party, let alone the commons.
    He would have to be, if only for forms sake. He "leads" the next biggest grouping and in theory could form a minority govt
    Just to mention again,

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/03/11/next-prime-minister-gus-odonnell-at-2501/
    Surely the problem would be the labyrinthine Labour Leader election process? AIUI, Her Majesty invites the leader of the opposition to form a govt. and they have 2 weeks to come up with a credible format. If they attempt to depose Corbyn it would decapitate Labour for months and we might well wind up with Corbyn back in charge (just like last time) because his backers know that he (and thus they) will be running the show.

    I see absolutely no upside for Mrs May trying to circumvent the FTPA. To do so would be the act of political amateurs or swivel-eyed loons.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,249
    MTimT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    I'd love to understand the psychology behind Ken Livingstone's obsession with Hitler.

    Does he admire him? Does he think he's misunderstood?

    What is it?

    Anti semitism is a common symptom of schizophrenia (more so than hostility to other racial groups).
    Apparently, there is an anti-Semitic movement in Japan, of all places. it's quite small, but nevertheless surprising for a country with virtually no experience of Jewish people before the late twentieth century.
    There's a theory that anti-Semitism is literally genetic. Innate. A mad theory, but a theory nonetheless.
    Interesting. But why Jews, rather than, say, Hottentots or Cherokees?
    Well, brave evolutionary psychologists would argue that we are programmed to fear, resent or reject social and economic competitors, or any racial outgroup that seems to have power over us. Hottentots don't run many large companies or own many media groups, to put it bluntly, nor do they have an average IQ one Standard Deviation above the mean.

    There's a great book on the rise of anti-Semitism in Germany (I forget the title, sorry) which is highly enlightening on the extent of Jewish power in pre-Nazi Germany. German Jews really did own and run an incredible array of businesses, newspapers, entire industries. Because they tend to be smart and industrious.

    Hitler exploited resentment at this, he didn't create it.
    Hitler's Willing Executioners, although a tedious book, does document the centuries of anti-semitism in Germany that predisposed non-Jewish Germans to think of the generic Jew (as opposed to your urbane banker neighbour jew) as somehow sub-human.
    Hannah Arendt also documents the historical roots of German (and French iirc) anti-jewish sentiment. I can't remember the exact arguments in 'The Origins of Totalitarianism' (a rather dense book I found), but jews got involved in things like newspapers because they didn't want to be full on capitalists (or weren't encouraged to be, I forget which) and own factories etc.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,311

    Dear me, even Lord Mandelson - one of the two* most talented UK politicians of the last quarter-century - seems to have lost the plot and become enfeebled:

    Resist: We have vocally to oppose what we don't agree with – we have to challenge and controversialise [sic] decisions so ‘new norms’ don't materialise. That is why pro-refugee, anti-Trump demos, the Gina Miller case, new newspapers or campaigns against hard Brexit are so important.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/peter-mandelson-slams-jeremy-corbyn-and-keir-starmer-not-acting-national

    * The other being Osborne, of course

    At least he didn't split his infinitives.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    I have just seen Junker on Sky...he has been drinking again....hard to tell who is more bonkers Red Ken or Junker.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    TOPPING said:

    At least he didn't split his infinitives.

    I think I could forgive a split infinitive, but 'controversialise'???

    The whole article is astonishingly feeble. I clicked on the link in the hope of getting something interesting and well-informed, but it's completely vacuous.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,930
    Lying about age - check
    Previous criminal record - check

    https://twitter.com/mailonline/status/847464341561409537
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,311

    MTimT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    I'd love to understand the psychology behind Ken Livingstone's obsession with Hitler.

    Does he admire him? Does he think he's misunderstood?

    What is it?

    Anti semitism is a common symptom of schizophrenia (more so than hostility to other racial groups).
    Apparently, there is an anti-Semitic movement in Japan, of all places. it's quite small, but nevertheless surprising for a country with virtually no experience of Jewish people before the late twentieth century.
    There's a theory that anti-Semitism is literally genetic. Innate. A mad theory, but a theory nonetheless.
    Interesting. But why Jews, rather than, say, Hottentots or Cherokees?
    Well, brave evolutionary psychologists would argue that we are programmed to fear, resent or reject social and economic competitors, or any racial outgroup that seems to have power over us. Hottentots don't run many large companies or own many media groups, to put it bluntly, nor do they have an average IQ one Standard Deviation above the mean.

    There's a great book on the rise of anti-Semitism in Germany (I forget the title, sorry) which is highly enlightening on the extent of Jewish power in pre-Nazi Germany. German Jews really did own and run an incredible array of businesses, newspapers, entire industries. Because they tend to be smart and industrious.

    Hitler exploited resentment at this, he didn't create it.
    Hitler's Willing Executioners, although a tedious book, does document the centuries of anti-semitism in Germany that predisposed non-Jewish Germans to think of the generic Jew (as opposed to your urbane banker neighbour jew) as somehow sub-human.
    Hannah Arendt also documents the historical roots of German (and French iirc) anti-jewish sentiment. I can't remember the exact arguments in 'The Origins of Totalitarianism' (a rather dense book I found), but jews got involved in things like newspapers because they didn't want to be full on capitalists (or weren't encouraged to be, I forget which) and own factories etc.
    factories, etc, could be confiscated.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,312

    Mr. Topping, aye, the old Jurgen the German tourist line [I was going to type it out but given past incidents thought it best not to].

    "Hallo, my name is Juergen. I feel I must apologise for my nation's conduct during ze war!"
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    Dear me, even Lord Mandelson - one of the two* most talented UK politicians of the last quarter-century - seems to have lost the plot and become enfeebled:

    Resist: We have vocally to oppose what we don't agree with – we have to challenge and controversialise [sic] decisions so ‘new norms’ don't materialise. That is why pro-refugee, anti-Trump demos, the Gina Miller case, new newspapers or campaigns against hard Brexit are so important.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/peter-mandelson-slams-jeremy-corbyn-and-keir-starmer-not-acting-national

    * The other being Osborne, of course

    Actually, if decisions are 'controversialised', that is an attempt to materialise 'new norms', isn't it?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited March 2017
    isam said:

    Lying about age - check
    Previous criminal record - check

    https://twitter.com/mailonline/status/847464341561409537

    Not just any previous criminal record...like a nicking a Mars bar...

    Stern magazine reported that Khavari had thrown a 20-year-old student off a cliff on Corfu, Greece, in May 2013. The woman was severely injured but 'miraculously' survived and was able to identify her attacker.

    Greeks let him of a 10 year prison sentence after 2.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,312

    Today is the 30th March, so these sentiments (with global warming) are just about appropriate...............
    "Life is not a highway strewn with flowers
    Still it holds a goodly share of bliss
    When the sun gives way to April showers
    Here is the point you should never miss
    Though April showers may come your way
    They bring the flowers that bloom in May
    So if it's raining have no regrets
    Because it isn't raining rain you know, it's raining violets
    And where you see clouds upon the hills
    You soon will see crowds of daffodils
    So keep on looking for a blue bird
    And list'ning…

    http://cdn.antarcticglaciers.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Post-Glacial_Sea_Level_rise2.png
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,684

    Fck me, not making it up as they go along at all.

    You mean like the SNP EU policy?
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,822
    edited March 2017

    Dear me, even Lord Mandelson - one of the two* most talented UK politicians of the last quarter-century - seems to have lost the plot and become enfeebled:

    Resist: We have vocally to oppose what we don't agree with – we have to challenge and controversialise [sic] decisions so ‘new norms’ don't materialise. That is why pro-refugee, anti-Trump demos, the Gina Miller case, new newspapers or campaigns against hard Brexit are so important.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/peter-mandelson-slams-jeremy-corbyn-and-keir-starmer-not-acting-national

    * The other being Osborne, of course

    Brexit has driven the establishment crazy - That's probably half the reason why most people went for LEAVE.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    edited March 2017
    isam said:

    Lying about age - check
    Previous criminal record - check

    https://twitter.com/mailonline/status/847464341561409537

    It's really quite tough to maintain an anti-capital punishment stance when I see criminals such as these.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    TOPPING said:

    Dear me, even Lord Mandelson - one of the two* most talented UK politicians of the last quarter-century - seems to have lost the plot and become enfeebled:

    Resist: We have vocally to oppose what we don't agree with – we have to challenge and controversialise [sic] decisions so ‘new norms’ don't materialise. That is why pro-refugee, anti-Trump demos, the Gina Miller case, new newspapers or campaigns against hard Brexit are so important.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/peter-mandelson-slams-jeremy-corbyn-and-keir-starmer-not-acting-national

    * The other being Osborne, of course

    At least he didn't split his infinitives.
    Well he should have done, "We have vocally to oppose" for "We have to vocally oppose" is ridiculous. The rule was invented by a mad Latinist who thought that because "amare" was one word, so should "to love" be. English ain't Latin, and the rule is inconsistent anyway because amabo "I will love" is one word too and nobody goes around saying that "I will madly love" is a split future and it should be "I madly will love."

    I like to deliberately split infinitives just because I can; a moderately unique habit, I dare say.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,358

    TOPPING said:

    At least he didn't split his infinitives.

    I think I could forgive a split infinitive, but 'controversialise'???

    The whole article is astonishingly feeble. I clicked on the link in the hope of getting something interesting and well-informed, but it's completely vacuous.
    It's bullshit for pushing the arguments for things like Brexit out to the fringes again, so the centre politicians can reclaim the Centre, if you will.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,311
    MaxPB said:

    isam said:

    Lying about age - check
    Previous criminal record - check

    https://twitter.com/mailonline/status/847464341561409537

    It's really quite tough to maintain an anti-capitalist punishment stance when I see criminals such as these.
    LOL 2nd prize in typo/auto-correct of the day.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    GIN1138 said:

    Dear me, even Lord Mandelson - one of the two* most talented UK politicians of the last quarter-century - seems to have lost the plot and become enfeebled:

    Resist: We have vocally to oppose what we don't agree with – we have to challenge and controversialise [sic] decisions so ‘new norms’ don't materialise. That is why pro-refugee, anti-Trump demos, the Gina Miller case, new newspapers or campaigns against hard Brexit are so important.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/peter-mandelson-slams-jeremy-corbyn-and-keir-starmer-not-acting-national

    * The other being Osborne, of course

    Brexit has driven the establishment crazy - That's probably half the reason why most people went for LEAVE.
    It may not be the primary reason to Leave, but it is a delicious side effect....
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    isam said:

    Lying about age - check
    Previous criminal record - check

    https://twitter.com/mailonline/status/847464341561409537

    It's really quite tough to maintain an anti-capitalist punishment stance when I see criminals such as these.
    LOL 2nd prize in typo/auto-correct of the day.
    Lol, bloody auto correct!
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,358

    Today is the 30th March, so these sentiments (with global warming) are just about appropriate...............
    "Life is not a highway strewn with flowers
    Still it holds a goodly share of bliss
    When the sun gives way to April showers
    Here is the point you should never miss
    Though April showers may come your way
    They bring the flowers that bloom in May
    So if it's raining have no regrets
    Because it isn't raining rain you know, it's raining violets
    And where you see clouds upon the hills
    You soon will see crowds of daffodils
    So keep on looking for a blue bird
    And list'ning…

    I want to see the sunshine after the rain,
    I want to see bluebirds flying over the mountains again.
  • Options
    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dear me, even Lord Mandelson - one of the two* most talented UK politicians of the last quarter-century - seems to have lost the plot and become enfeebled:

    Resist: We have vocally to oppose what we don't agree with – we have to challenge and controversialise [sic] decisions so ‘new norms’ don't materialise. That is why pro-refugee, anti-Trump demos, the Gina Miller case, new newspapers or campaigns against hard Brexit are so important.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/peter-mandelson-slams-jeremy-corbyn-and-keir-starmer-not-acting-national

    * The other being Osborne, of course

    At least he didn't split his infinitives.
    Well he should have done, "We have vocally to oppose" for "We have to vocally oppose" is ridiculous. The rule was invented by a mad Latinist who thought that because "amare" was one word, so should "to love" be. English ain't Latin, and the rule is inconsistent anyway because amabo "I will love" is one word too and nobody goes around saying that "I will madly love" is a split future and it should be "I madly will love."

    I like to deliberately split infinitives just because I can; a moderately unique habit, I dare say.
    I totally agree about split infinitives although "moderately unique" is just wrong!
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Oh, and it is an exquisite spring day here in Mallorca too, so just maybe Brexit will work out OK for everyone affected.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,312
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    isam said:

    Lying about age - check
    Previous criminal record - check

    https://twitter.com/mailonline/status/847464341561409537

    It's really quite tough to maintain an anti-capitalist punishment stance when I see criminals such as these.
    LOL 2nd prize in typo/auto-correct of the day.
    Socialist media :lol:
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dear me, even Lord Mandelson - one of the two* most talented UK politicians of the last quarter-century - seems to have lost the plot and become enfeebled:

    Resist: We have vocally to oppose what we don't agree with – we have to challenge and controversialise [sic] decisions so ‘new norms’ don't materialise. That is why pro-refugee, anti-Trump demos, the Gina Miller case, new newspapers or campaigns against hard Brexit are so important.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/peter-mandelson-slams-jeremy-corbyn-and-keir-starmer-not-acting-national

    * The other being Osborne, of course

    At least he didn't split his infinitives.
    Well he should have done, "We have vocally to oppose" for "We have to vocally oppose" is ridiculous. The rule was invented by a mad Latinist who thought that because "amare" was one word, so should "to love" be. English ain't Latin, and the rule is inconsistent anyway because amabo "I will love" is one word too and nobody goes around saying that "I will madly love" is a split future and it should be "I madly will love."

    I like to deliberately split infinitives just because I can; a moderately unique habit, I dare say.
    I totally agree about split infinitives although "moderately unique" is just wrong!
    "moderately unique" was to troll Mr Dancer.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Mr. Z, I do apologise for not only not being outraged, but failing to even notice :p

    [I am doing some work and only flitting in and out].

    *clears throat* Something cannot be moderately unique, any more than a woman can be moderately pregnant. Unique is singular, one of a kind, and those who qualify it as 'quite', 'very', or 'moderately' are deviant abusers of the English language.
  • Options
    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dear me, even Lord Mandelson - one of the two* most talented UK politicians of the last quarter-century - seems to have lost the plot and become enfeebled:

    Resist: We have vocally to oppose what we don't agree with – we have to challenge and controversialise [sic] decisions so ‘new norms’ don't materialise. That is why pro-refugee, anti-Trump demos, the Gina Miller case, new newspapers or campaigns against hard Brexit are so important.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/peter-mandelson-slams-jeremy-corbyn-and-keir-starmer-not-acting-national

    * The other being Osborne, of course

    At least he didn't split his infinitives.
    Well he should have done, "We have vocally to oppose" for "We have to vocally oppose" is ridiculous. The rule was invented by a mad Latinist who thought that because "amare" was one word, so should "to love" be. English ain't Latin, and the rule is inconsistent anyway because amabo "I will love" is one word too and nobody goes around saying that "I will madly love" is a split future and it should be "I madly will love."

    I like to deliberately split infinitives just because I can; a moderately unique habit, I dare say.
    I totally agree about split infinitives although "moderately unique" is just wrong!
    "moderately unique" was to troll Mr Dancer.
    Oh, fair enough then.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    It's bullshit for pushing the arguments for things like Brexit out to the fringes again, so the centre politicians can reclaim the Centre, if you will.

    Yeah, but the Mandy of old wouldn't have been going on about pro-refugee demos or new newspapers, like some particularly wet-behind-the-ears Guardian columnist.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dear me, even Lord Mandelson - one of the two* most talented UK politicians of the last quarter-century - seems to have lost the plot and become enfeebled:

    Resist: We have vocally to oppose what we don't agree with – we have to challenge and controversialise [sic] decisions so ‘new norms’ don't materialise. That is why pro-refugee, anti-Trump demos, the Gina Miller case, new newspapers or campaigns against hard Brexit are so important.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/peter-mandelson-slams-jeremy-corbyn-and-keir-starmer-not-acting-national

    * The other being Osborne, of course

    At least he didn't split his infinitives.
    Well he should have done, "We have vocally to oppose" for "We have to vocally oppose" is ridiculous. The rule was invented by a mad Latinist who thought that because "amare" was one word, so should "to love" be. English ain't Latin, and the rule is inconsistent anyway because amabo "I will love" is one word too and nobody goes around saying that "I will madly love" is a split future and it should be "I madly will love."

    I like to deliberately split infinitives just because I can; a moderately unique habit, I dare say.
    How can you tell an smug arrogant idiot from the general population? A smug arrogant idiot will insist on prescriptive grammatical forms as if language is derived from grammar rather than the grammar of a language being derived from the living use of the language.

    If Alfred the fucking Great can use 'less' rather than 'fewer' it's good enough for me.
  • Options
    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,601
    From the 2016 Pink Book:

    "The most substantial bilateral deficit within the EU is with Germany, which increased by 46.6% in 2015 (£25 billion) relative to 2007. The UK trade balance with respect to Germany has been in deficit in the past decade with the largest record seen in 2015. In contrast, the UK’s trade balance with Ireland has been in surplus all through from 1999, while UK trade with the Netherlands has experienced both deficits and surpluses during this period. It is worth noting the impact that the “Rotterdam effect” can have on trade in goods, further details of which can be found in the background notes, section 5, understanding the data. The UK trade deficit with EU countries as a whole is currently valued at £69 billion, a 17.9% deterioration compared with 2014."

    And the EU want us to pay them something in excess of £50bn for the privilege of continuing to allow them unfettered access to our domestic markets? Shouldn't it be the other way around? I think that Frau Merkel is overplaying her hand.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/unitedkingdombalanceofpaymentsthepinkbook/2016
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,311
    edited March 2017
    Alistair said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dear me, even Lord Mandelson - one of the two* most talented UK politicians of the last quarter-century - seems to have lost the plot and become enfeebled:

    Resist: We have vocally to oppose what we don't agree with – we have to challenge and controversialise [sic] decisions so ‘new norms’ don't materialise. That is why pro-refugee, anti-Trump demos, the Gina Miller case, new newspapers or campaigns against hard Brexit are so important.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/peter-mandelson-slams-jeremy-corbyn-and-keir-starmer-not-acting-national

    * The other being Osborne, of course

    At least he didn't split his infinitives.
    Well he should have done, "We have vocally to oppose" for "We have to vocally oppose" is ridiculous. The rule was invented by a mad Latinist who thought that because "amare" was one word, so should "to love" be. English ain't Latin, and the rule is inconsistent anyway because amabo "I will love" is one word too and nobody goes around saying that "I will madly love" is a split future and it should be "I madly will love."

    I like to deliberately split infinitives just because I can; a moderately unique habit, I dare say.
    How can you tell an smug arrogant idiot from the general population? A smug arrogant idiot will insist on prescriptive grammatical forms as if language is derived from grammar rather than the grammar of a language being derived from the living use of the language.

    If Alfred the fucking Great can use 'less' rather than 'fewer' it's good enough for me.
    obeying the rule that any post that comments on, or criticises someone else's grammar will contain a grammatical or typographic error.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,930
    edited March 2017
    The Suppertime Standard tells of pessimism in Londinium

    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/847471107510738944
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Mr. Alistair, I'm not sure using 9th century Anglo-Saxon as the basis of correct grammar is necessarily wise.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    edited March 2017
    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I'd love to understand the psychology behind Ken Livingstone's obsession with Hitler.

    Does he admire him? Does he think he's misunderstood?

    What is it?

    I think it actually stems from an obsession with Israel and Jews, not necessarily anti-Semitism as such, but a definite and peculiar fascination, which can often be found in highly political people. So the Hitler thing is a product of that.
    Which begs another question.
    It's not hard to see why highly political people would become fascinated by the Jews, as so many modern political movements stem partly or wholly from "Jewish" ideas and thinkers, and so many prominent politicians and political writers are Jewish.

    If you're a Marxist, like Ken, you believe in a political and economic system devised by a Jew, Karl Marx, and first enacted in Russia, where Jews were very prominent in the early days (e.g. Trotsky).

    Look at Britain's recent party leaders - David Cameron, partly Jewish. Nick Clegg, partly Jewish, Ed Miliband, Jewish.

    etc etc
    I didn't think Ken was a fan, and got the impression he rather admired Hitler's "solutions".
    The left fell out of love with Jews and Israel when they became strong.

    Poor, downtrodden Jews = people we should be helping to become strong; strong Jews = oppressors of the people.
    No. Leftwing anti-Semitism goes back much further than that (if you mean the rise of Israel). Lenin became somewhat anti-Semitic towards the end (after initially being pro-Jewish), Stalin was seriously anti-Semitic.

    And Jews = rich capitalists, for many lefties, from the start.

    Well before they were rich capitalists they were poor Jews.

    They actually did quite well in many parts of the world outside Europe. I found out today there's a wealthy, centuries old Jewish community in Central China, for example.

    Edit - just Googled. They're being persecuted now.

  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    isam said:

    The Suppertime Standard tells of pessimism in Londinium

    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/847471107510738944

    The gospel according to St Gideon :o
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I'd love to understand the psychology behind Ken Livingstone's obsession with Hitler.

    Does he admire him? Does he think he's misunderstood?

    What is it?

    I think it actually stems from an obsession with Israel and Jews, not necessarily anti-Semitism as such, but a definite and peculiar fascination, which can often be found in highly political people. So the Hitler thing is a product of that.
    Which begs another question.
    It's not hard to see why highly political people would become fascinated by the Jews, as so many modern political movements stem partly or wholly from "Jewish" ideas and thinkers, and so many prominent politicians and political writers are Jewish.

    If you're a Marxist, like Ken, you believe in a political and economic system devised by a Jew, Karl Marx, and first enacted in Russia, where Jews were very prominent in the early days (e.g. Trotsky).

    Look at Britain's recent party leaders - David Cameron, partly Jewish. Nick Clegg, partly Jewish, Ed Miliband, Jewish.

    etc etc
    I didn't think Ken was a fan, and got the impression he rather admired Hitler's "solutions".
    The left fell out of love with Jews and Israel when they became strong.

    Poor, downtrodden Jews = people we should be helping to become strong; strong Jews = oppressors of the people.
    No. Leftwing anti-Semitism goes back much further than that (if you mean the rise of Israel). Lenin became somewhat anti-Semitic towards the end (after initially being pro-Jewish), Stalin was seriously anti-Semitic.

    And Jews = rich capitalists, for many lefties, from the start.

    Well before they were rich capitalists they were poor Jews.

    They actually did quite well in many parts of the world outside Europe. I found out today there's a wealthy, centuries old Jewish community in Western China, for example.

    Venezuela as well according to a Venezuelan we met in Manila.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    isam said:

    The Suppertime Standard tells of pessimism in Londinium

    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/847471107510738944

    Is it now not known as the Gideon Bible?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    edited March 2017
    Mr. Pulpstar, indeed.

    Better to actually comment on facts and put forward proposals rather than wail and gnash teeth, but I'm just a poor writer and not a millionaire with half a dozen jobs, so what do I know?

    Edited extra bit: that, said: George*.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,358

    It's bullshit for pushing the arguments for things like Brexit out to the fringes again, so the centre politicians can reclaim the Centre, if you will.

    Yeah, but the Mandy of old wouldn't have been going on about pro-refugee demos or new newspapers, like some particularly wet-behind-the-ears Guardian columnist.
    Wouldn't he? He and Blair have always loved the EU and immigration.

    It's the capitalist bit and money-making where their Labour was all new-ish.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    The Suppertime Standard tells of pessimism in Londinium

    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/847471107510738944

    The gospel according to St Gideon :o
    Not yet, surely.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,312
    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Royale, I'd guess it's for historical reasons. Jews have usually been a minority wherever they've lived. They also were involved early on in banking, when usury (charging interest) was still banned to Christians. So, Christians ended up requiring the services of Jews, who did something that enriched the Jewish doing something that was 'bad' enough that Christians weren't permitted to do it.

    Avarice and sin, all in one (of course, it was hugely economically beneficial to not only the Jews but the cities in which they dwelt...).

    Couple that with being a minority, and you've got a rich community, few in number, whose wealth comes from something the majority are forbidden from doing.

    Sadly, the Jews have taken such a kicking over the years (Edward I didn't cover himself in glory when he threw them out of England) that it's become ingrained in some cultures to dislike them. When I was at school, a surprising and disturbing moment was when several classmates suddenly started using 'Jew/Jewish' as a pejorative term for the people they were killing on the... N64, I think it was.

    Plus of course the original sin of killing JChrist. When all else fails that is the fallback anti-semitic reason for the West.
    Wasn't Christ crucified by the Romans?
  • Options
    It's a bit like sitting up for a particularly irrelevant by election result - waiting for news to break about Ken Livingstone's hearing with the Labour NEC. Michael Mansfield QC can't still be talking, can he? When can we expect a result, so that we can watch the fun on Twitter?
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Wouldn't he? He and Blair have always loved the EU and immigration.

    It's the capitalist bit and money-making where their Labour was all new-ish.

    I meant they wouldn't have bothered advocating such completely feeble means.
  • Options

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Royale, I'd guess it's for historical reasons. Jews have usually been a minority wherever they've lived. They also were involved early on in banking, when usury (charging interest) was still banned to Christians. So, Christians ended up requiring the services of Jews, who did something that enriched the Jewish doing something that was 'bad' enough that Christians weren't permitted to do it.

    Avarice and sin, all in one (of course, it was hugely economically beneficial to not only the Jews but the cities in which they dwelt...).

    Couple that with being a minority, and you've got a rich community, few in number, whose wealth comes from something the majority are forbidden from doing.

    Sadly, the Jews have taken such a kicking over the years (Edward I didn't cover himself in glory when he threw them out of England) that it's become ingrained in some cultures to dislike them. When I was at school, a surprising and disturbing moment was when several classmates suddenly started using 'Jew/Jewish' as a pejorative term for the people they were killing on the... N64, I think it was.

    Plus of course the original sin of killing JChrist. When all else fails that is the fallback anti-semitic reason for the West.
    Wasn't Christ crucified by the Romans?
    Yes - but because the Jews asked them to. Pilate wasn't keen, but gave in to a Referendum Result.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Mr. Carp, point of order: Christ is a title. Only Christians believe Jesus was Christ.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    The Suppertime Standard tells of pessimism in Londinium

    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/847471107510738944

    The gospel according to St Gideon :o
    Not yet, surely.
    Even as a remainer I can't overlook the obvious angle the Standard has now. It isn't an impartial source :>
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,312

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Royale, I'd guess it's for historical reasons. Jews have usually been a minority wherever they've lived. They also were involved early on in banking, when usury (charging interest) was still banned to Christians. So, Christians ended up requiring the services of Jews, who did something that enriched the Jewish doing something that was 'bad' enough that Christians weren't permitted to do it.

    Avarice and sin, all in one (of course, it was hugely economically beneficial to not only the Jews but the cities in which they dwelt...).

    Couple that with being a minority, and you've got a rich community, few in number, whose wealth comes from something the majority are forbidden from doing.

    Sadly, the Jews have taken such a kicking over the years (Edward I didn't cover himself in glory when he threw them out of England) that it's become ingrained in some cultures to dislike them. When I was at school, a surprising and disturbing moment was when several classmates suddenly started using 'Jew/Jewish' as a pejorative term for the people they were killing on the... N64, I think it was.

    Plus of course the original sin of killing JChrist. When all else fails that is the fallback anti-semitic reason for the West.
    Wasn't Christ crucified by the Romans?
    Yes - but because the Jews asked them to. Pilate wasn't keen, but gave in to a Referendum Result.
    But crucifixion wasn't a Jewish punishment?

    Also:

    Pilate's reluctance to execute Jesus in the gospels has been seen by Anchor Bible Dictionary and critical scholars as reflecting the authors' agenda.[30][31] It has thus been argued that gospel accounts place the blame on the Jews, not on Rome, in line with the authors' alleged goal of making peace with the Roman Empire and vilifying the Jews.[30][31]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,358

    Oh, and it is an exquisite spring day here in Mallorca too, so just maybe Brexit will work out OK for everyone affected.

    Are you Richard Roper?
  • Options

    Mr. Carp, point of order: Christ is a title. Only Christians believe Jesus was Christ.

    Sorry, I thought Sunil was asking a historical question, not a Christological one.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited March 2017

    From the 2016 Pink Book:

    "The most substantial bilateral deficit within the EU is with Germany, which increased by 46.6% in 2015 (£25 billion) relative to 2007. The UK trade balance with respect to Germany has been in deficit in the past decade with the largest record seen in 2015. In contrast, the UK’s trade balance with Ireland has been in surplus all through from 1999, while UK trade with the Netherlands has experienced both deficits and surpluses during this period. It is worth noting the impact that the “Rotterdam effect” can have on trade in goods, further details of which can be found in the background notes, section 5, understanding the data. The UK trade deficit with EU countries as a whole is currently valued at £69 billion, a 17.9% deterioration compared with 2014."

    And the EU want us to pay them something in excess of £50bn for the privilege of continuing to allow them unfettered access to our domestic markets? Shouldn't it be the other way around? I think that Frau Merkel is overplaying her hand.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/unitedkingdombalanceofpaymentsthepinkbook/2016

    It sounds like they are trying to make sure we pay for things we have already promised to pay for rather than continued access. The CER have a go at deciphering it all.

    https://www.cer.org.uk/publications/archive/policy-brief/2017/€60-billion-brexit-bill-how-disentangle-britain-eu-budget

    We already give away €30bn a year in aid/EU payments so a little bit of creativity with these budgets, and some others, would address whatever the 'bill' is.

    It is more a presentational problem than a financial one as far as I can see.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Mr. Carp, I'm just being finickity :p

    It is a genuine point, though. Jews think he wasn't Christ, Christians think he was, and Muslims think he was a prophet.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,339
    MTimT said:


    Hitler's Willing Executioners, although a tedious book, does document the centuries of anti-semitism in Germany that predisposed non-Jewish Germans to think of the generic Jew (as opposed to your urbane banker neighbour jew) as somehow sub-human.

    Currently reading The Hare With Amber Eyes, strongly recommended by friends (it's a bit heavy going unless you can be enticed into an interest in netsuke collection, but well written). The author goes into some detail about the bonkers anti-semitism in France in the 19th century, including lots of well-known artists like Degas: essentially they were marginalised and then resented for prospering at the margin. John Buchan's books show it in England too. I think it was only the Nazi mass murder of ordinary people that really turned opinion decisively against it.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,625
    Alistair said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dear me, even Lord Mandelson - one of the two* most talented UK politicians of the last quarter-century - seems to have lost the plot and become enfeebled:

    Resist: We have vocally to oppose what we don't agree with – we have to challenge and controversialise [sic] decisions so ‘new norms’ don't materialise. That is why pro-refugee, anti-Trump demos, the Gina Miller case, new newspapers or campaigns against hard Brexit are so important.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/peter-mandelson-slams-jeremy-corbyn-and-keir-starmer-not-acting-national

    * The other being Osborne, of course

    At least he didn't split his infinitives.
    Well he should have done, "We have vocally to oppose" for "We have to vocally oppose" is ridiculous. The rule was invented by a mad Latinist who thought that because "amare" was one word, so should "to love" be. English ain't Latin, and the rule is inconsistent anyway because amabo "I will love" is one word too and nobody goes around saying that "I will madly love" is a split future and it should be "I madly will love."

    I like to deliberately split infinitives just because I can; a moderately unique habit, I dare say.
    How can you tell an smug arrogant idiot from the general population? A smug arrogant idiot will insist on prescriptive grammatical forms as if language is derived from grammar rather than the grammar of a language being derived from the living use of the language.

    If Alfred the fucking Great can use 'less' rather than 'fewer' it's good enough for me.
    Alfred the Great, yes.

    Alfred the Grammarian, no.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,930
    edited March 2017
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    The Suppertime Standard tells of pessimism in Londinium

    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/847471107510738944

    The gospel according to St Gideon :o
    Not yet, surely.
    Even as a remainer I can't overlook the obvious angle the Standard has now. It isn't an impartial source :>
    The headline is surely plain wrong? The poll reveals that Londoners think they will be made poorer by Brexit, not that they will be. As London voted remain by quite a margin, that's hardly surprising. It seems opinion hasn't shifted either way since Independence Day
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    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Royale, I'd guess it's for historical reasons. Jews have usually been a minority wherever they've lived. They also were involved early on in banking, when usury (charging interest) was still banned to Christians. So, Christians ended up requiring the services of Jews, who did something that enriched the Jewish doing something that was 'bad' enough that Christians weren't permitted to do it.

    Avarice and sin, all in one (of course, it was hugely economically beneficial to not only the Jews but the cities in which they dwelt...).

    Couple that with being a minority, and you've got a rich community, few in number, whose wealth comes from something the majority are forbidden from doing.

    Sadly, the Jews have taken such a kicking over the years (Edward I didn't cover himself in glory when he threw them out of England) that it's become ingrained in some cultures to dislike them. When I was at school, a surprising and disturbing moment was when several classmates suddenly started using 'Jew/Jewish' as a pejorative term for the people they were killing on the... N64, I think it was.

    Plus of course the original sin of killing JChrist. When all else fails that is the fallback anti-semitic reason for the West.
    Wasn't Christ crucified by the Romans?
    Yes - but because the Jews asked them to. Pilate wasn't keen, but gave in to a Referendum Result.
    But crucifixion wasn't a Jewish punishment?

    Also:

    Pilate's reluctance to execute Jesus in the gospels has been seen by Anchor Bible Dictionary and critical scholars as reflecting the authors' agenda.[30][31] It has thus been argued that gospel accounts place the blame on the Jews, not on Rome, in line with the authors' alleged goal of making peace with the Roman Empire and vilifying the Jews.[30][31]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate
    Crucifixion was definitely a Roman punishment. Can't help with the other points, though, sorry.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,625

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Royale, I'd guess it's for historical reasons. Jews have usually been a minority wherever they've lived. They also were involved early on in banking, when usury (charging interest) was still banned to Christians. So, Christians ended up requiring the services of Jews, who did something that enriched the Jewish doing something that was 'bad' enough that Christians weren't permitted to do it.

    Avarice and sin, all in one (of course, it was hugely economically beneficial to not only the Jews but the cities in which they dwelt...).

    Couple that with being a minority, and you've got a rich community, few in number, whose wealth comes from something the majority are forbidden from doing.

    Sadly, the Jews have taken such a kicking over the years (Edward I didn't cover himself in glory when he threw them out of England) that it's become ingrained in some cultures to dislike them. When I was at school, a surprising and disturbing moment was when several classmates suddenly started using 'Jew/Jewish' as a pejorative term for the people they were killing on the... N64, I think it was.

    Plus of course the original sin of killing JChrist. When all else fails that is the fallback anti-semitic reason for the West.
    Wasn't Christ crucified by the Romans?
    Yes - but because the Jews asked them to. Pilate wasn't keen, but gave in to a Referendum Result.
    As there were 4 candidates, they should have used AV or exhaustive ballot. Jesus died thanks to First Past the Post!
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,115

    Fck me, not making it up as they go along at all.

    Can your lot please put the UK out of its misery as soon as possible? This is embarrassing.
    Slowly, slowly, catchy monkey.

    Even three particularly stupid ones.
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Trump has been tweeting again....

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/847435163143454723

    Not too sure if this attitude towards the HFC is exactly a wise move from Trump.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Royale, I'd guess it's for historical reasons. Jews have usually been a minority wherever they've lived. They also were involved early on in banking, when usury (charging interest) was still banned to Christians. So, Christians ended up requiring the services of Jews, who did something that enriched the Jewish doing something that was 'bad' enough that Christians weren't permitted to do it.

    Avarice and sin, all in one (of course, it was hugely economically beneficial to not only the Jews but the cities in which they dwelt...).

    Couple that with being a minority, and you've got a rich community, few in number, whose wealth comes from something the majority are forbidden from doing.

    Sadly, the Jews have taken such a kicking over the years (Edward I didn't cover himself in glory when he threw them out of England) that it's become ingrained in some cultures to dislike them. When I was at school, a surprising and disturbing moment was when several classmates suddenly started using 'Jew/Jewish' as a pejorative term for the people they were killing on the... N64, I think it was.

    Plus of course the original sin of killing JChrist. When all else fails that is the fallback anti-semitic reason for the West.
    Wasn't Christ crucified by the Romans?
    Yes - but because the Jews asked them to. Pilate wasn't keen, but gave in to a Referendum Result.
    But crucifixion wasn't a Jewish punishment?

    Also:

    Pilate's reluctance to execute Jesus in the gospels has been seen by Anchor Bible Dictionary and critical scholars as reflecting the authors' agenda.[30][31] It has thus been argued that gospel accounts place the blame on the Jews, not on Rome, in line with the authors' alleged goal of making peace with the Roman Empire and vilifying the Jews.[30][31]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate
    Surely, only Pilate could authorise capital punishment.
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    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Royale, I'd guess it's for historical reasons. Jews have usually been a minority wherever they've lived. They also were involved early on in banking, when usury (charging interest) was still banned to Christians. So, Christians ended up requiring the services of Jews, who did something that enriched the Jewish doing something that was 'bad' enough that Christians weren't permitted to do it.

    Avarice and sin, all in one (of course, it was hugely economically beneficial to not only the Jews but the cities in which they dwelt...).

    Couple that with being a minority, and you've got a rich community, few in number, whose wealth comes from something the majority are forbidden from doing.

    Sadly, the Jews have taken such a kicking over the years (Edward I didn't cover himself in glory when he threw them out of England) that it's become ingrained in some cultures to dislike them. When I was at school, a surprising and disturbing moment was when several classmates suddenly started using 'Jew/Jewish' as a pejorative term for the people they were killing on the... N64, I think it was.

    Plus of course the original sin of killing JChrist. When all else fails that is the fallback anti-semitic reason for the West.
    Wasn't Christ crucified by the Romans?
    Yes - but because the Jews asked them to. Pilate wasn't keen, but gave in to a Referendum Result.
    As there were 4 candidates, they should have used AV or exhaustive ballot. Jesus died thanks to First Past the Post!
    A very good point indeed, which I will convey to our Vicar (a reactionary Labour type) on Sunday morning.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    I see that standards have really collapsed in the House of Commons. Fancy openly announcing yesterday that two Tory MPs have had a bastard together - one of the MPs being an adulterer. It would be good to see his Association deselect him.
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    justin124 said:

    I see that standards have really collapsed in the House of Commons. Fancy openly announcing yesterday that two Tory MPs have had a bastard together - one of the MPs being an adulterer. It would be good to see his Association deselect him.

    Can you name names?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    justin124 said:

    I see that standards have really collapsed in the House of Commons. Fancy openly announcing yesterday that two Tory MPs have had a bastard together - one of the MPs being an adulterer. It would be good to see his Association deselect him.

    Which MPs?
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,312

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Royale, I'd guess it's for historical reasons. Jews have usually been a minority wherever they've lived. They also were involved early on in banking, when usury (charging interest) was still banned to Christians. So, Christians ended up requiring the services of Jews, who did something that enriched the Jewish doing something that was 'bad' enough that Christians weren't permitted to do it.

    Avarice and sin, all in one (of course, it was hugely economically beneficial to not only the Jews but the cities in which they dwelt...).

    Couple that with being a minority, and you've got a rich community, few in number, whose wealth comes from something the majority are forbidden from doing.

    Sadly, the Jews have taken such a kicking over the years (Edward I didn't cover himself in glory when he threw them out of England) that it's become ingrained in some cultures to dislike them. When I was at school, a surprising and disturbing moment was when several classmates suddenly started using 'Jew/Jewish' as a pejorative term for the people they were killing on the... N64, I think it was.

    Plus of course the original sin of killing JChrist. When all else fails that is the fallback anti-semitic reason for the West.
    Wasn't Christ crucified by the Romans?
    Yes - but because the Jews asked them to. Pilate wasn't keen, but gave in to a Referendum Result.
    But crucifixion wasn't a Jewish punishment?

    Also:

    Pilate's reluctance to execute Jesus in the gospels has been seen by Anchor Bible Dictionary and critical scholars as reflecting the authors' agenda.[30][31] It has thus been argued that gospel accounts place the blame on the Jews, not on Rome, in line with the authors' alleged goal of making peace with the Roman Empire and vilifying the Jews.[30][31]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate
    Crucifixion was definitely a Roman punishment. Can't help with the other points, though, sorry.
    If the Jews wanted him dead they would have stoned him! Crucifixion shows that the Romans were definitely calling the shots in Judaea.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,625
    justin124 said:

    I see that standards have really collapsed in the House of Commons. Fancy openly announcing yesterday that two Tory MPs have had a bastard together - one of the MPs being an adulterer. It would be good to see his Association deselect him.

    There would be plenty of new MPs after each GE if all of the adulterers were deselected.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    I see that standards have really collapsed in the House of Commons. Fancy openly announcing yesterday that two Tory MPs have had a bastard together - one of the MPs being an adulterer. It would be good to see his Association deselect him.

    Can you name names?
    Andrea Jenkyns and Jack Lopresti.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Mr. Carp, I'm just being finickity :p

    It is a genuine point, though. Jews think he wasn't Christ, Christians think he was, and Muslims think he was a prophet.

    He's very important in Islam, far less so in most interpretations of Judaism.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    justin124 said:

    I see that standards have really collapsed in the House of Commons. Fancy openly announcing yesterday that two Tory MPs have had a bastard together - one of the MPs being an adulterer. It would be good to see his Association deselect him.

    A "bastard". Do you also call gay people "poofters"?
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,311
    edited March 2017

    MTimT said:


    Hitler's Willing Executioners, although a tedious book, does document the centuries of anti-semitism in Germany that predisposed non-Jewish Germans to think of the generic Jew (as opposed to your urbane banker neighbour jew) as somehow sub-human.

    Currently reading The Hare With Amber Eyes, strongly recommended by friends (it's a bit heavy going unless you can be enticed into an interest in netsuke collection, but well written). The author goes into some detail about the bonkers anti-semitism in France in the 19th century, including lots of well-known artists like Degas: essentially they were marginalised and then resented for prospering at the margin. John Buchan's books show it in England too. I think it was only the Nazi mass murder of ordinary people that really turned opinion decisively against it.
    Heavy going? You're kidding, right? It is the most exquisite, delicate book.
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited March 2017
    justin124 said:

    I see that standards have really collapsed in the House of Commons. Fancy openly announcing yesterday that two Tory MPs have had a bastard together - one of the MPs being an adulterer. It would be good to see his Association deselect him.

    Are you being serious? Don't you think this is a tad harsh?
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Ishmael_Z said:

    justin124 said:

    I see that standards have really collapsed in the House of Commons. Fancy openly announcing yesterday that two Tory MPs have had a bastard together - one of the MPs being an adulterer. It would be good to see his Association deselect him.

    A "bastard". Do you also call gay people "poofters"?
    Is that "wrong" now? It's so hard to keep up with these things.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Ishmael_Z said:

    justin124 said:

    I see that standards have really collapsed in the House of Commons. Fancy openly announcing yesterday that two Tory MPs have had a bastard together - one of the MPs being an adulterer. It would be good to see his Association deselect him.

    A "bastard". Do you also call gay people "poofters"?
    A child born out of wedlock is by legal definition a bastard.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,358
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I see that standards have really collapsed in the House of Commons. Fancy openly announcing yesterday that two Tory MPs have had a bastard together - one of the MPs being an adulterer. It would be good to see his Association deselect him.

    Can you name names?
    Andrea Jenkyns and Jack Lopresti.
    And who's the bastard? IDS?

    Not sure Chingford Conservative Association are ready to deselect him, though.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,031
    edited March 2017

    justin124 said:

    I see that standards have really collapsed in the House of Commons. Fancy openly announcing yesterday that two Tory MPs have had a bastard together - one of the MPs being an adulterer. It would be good to see his Association deselect him.

    There would be plenty of new MPs after each GE if all of the adulterers were deselected.
    And they'd all be new if all the bastards were deselected. ;)
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Oh, and it is an exquisite spring day here in Mallorca too, so just maybe Brexit will work out OK for everyone affected.

    Are you Richard Roper?
    Nah.

    Just Corky.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I see that standards have really collapsed in the House of Commons. Fancy openly announcing yesterday that two Tory MPs have had a bastard together - one of the MPs being an adulterer. It would be good to see his Association deselect him.

    Can you name names?
    Andrea Jenkyns and Jack Lopresti.
    And who's the bastard? IDS?

    Not sure Chingford Conservative Association are ready to deselect him, though.
    He is MP for Filton & Bradley Stoke.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,358

    Oh, and it is an exquisite spring day here in Mallorca too, so just maybe Brexit will work out OK for everyone affected.

    Are you Richard Roper?
    Nah.

    Just Corky.
    Corrrky!!
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    edited March 2017
    justin124 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    justin124 said:

    I see that standards have really collapsed in the House of Commons. Fancy openly announcing yesterday that two Tory MPs have had a bastard together - one of the MPs being an adulterer. It would be good to see his Association deselect him.

    A "bastard". Do you also call gay people "poofters"?
    A child born out of wedlock is by legal definition a bastard.
    Sure, and no bad thing, in itself.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    TOPPING said:

    Alistair said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dear me, even Lord Mandelson - one of the two* most talented UK politicians of the last quarter-century - seems to have lost the plot and become enfeebled:

    Resist: We have vocally to oppose what we don't agree with – we have to challenge and controversialise [sic] decisions so ‘new norms’ don't materialise. That is why pro-refugee, anti-Trump demos, the Gina Miller case, new newspapers or campaigns against hard Brexit are so important.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/peter-mandelson-slams-jeremy-corbyn-and-keir-starmer-not-acting-national

    * The other being Osborne, of course

    At least he didn't split his infinitives.
    Well he should have done, "We have vocally to oppose" for "We have to vocally oppose" is ridiculous. The rule was invented by a mad Latinist who thought that because "amare" was one word, so should "to love" be. English ain't Latin, and the rule is inconsistent anyway because amabo "I will love" is one word too and nobody goes around saying that "I will madly love" is a split future and it should be "I madly will love."

    I like to deliberately split infinitives just because I can; a moderately unique habit, I dare say.
    How can you tell an smug arrogant idiot from the general population? A smug arrogant idiot will insist on prescriptive grammatical forms as if language is derived from grammar rather than the grammar of a language being derived from the living use of the language.

    If Alfred the fucking Great can use 'less' rather than 'fewer' it's good enough for me.
    obeying the rule that any post that comments on, or criticises someone else's grammar will contain a grammatical or typographic error.
    My spelling is awful and autocorrect makes it worse.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,311
    Alistair said:

    TOPPING said:

    Alistair said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dear me, even Lord Mandelson - one of the two* most talented UK politicians of the last quarter-century - seems to have lost the plot and become enfeebled:

    Resist: We have vocally to oppose what we don't agree with – we have to challenge and controversialise [sic] decisions so ‘new norms’ don't materialise. That is why pro-refugee, anti-Trump demos, the Gina Miller case, new newspapers or campaigns against hard Brexit are so important.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/peter-mandelson-slams-jeremy-corbyn-and-keir-starmer-not-acting-national

    * The other being Osborne, of course

    At least he didn't split his infinitives.
    Well he should have done, "We have vocally to oppose" for "We have to vocally oppose" is ridiculous. The rule was invented by a mad Latinist who thought that because "amare" was one word, so should "to love" be. English ain't Latin, and the rule is inconsistent anyway because amabo "I will love" is one word too and nobody goes around saying that "I will madly love" is a split future and it should be "I madly will love."

    I like to deliberately split infinitives just because I can; a moderately unique habit, I dare say.
    How can you tell an smug arrogant idiot from the general population? A smug arrogant idiot will insist on prescriptive grammatical forms as if language is derived from grammar rather than the grammar of a language being derived from the living use of the language.

    If Alfred the fucking Great can use 'less' rather than 'fewer' it's good enough for me.
    obeying the rule that any post that comments on, or criticises someone else's grammar will contain a grammatical or typographic error.
    My spelling is awful and autocorrect makes it worse.
    Today you have to outperform strongly to beat the two front runners in the auto-correct stakes.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited March 2017

    justin124 said:

    I see that standards have really collapsed in the House of Commons. Fancy openly announcing yesterday that two Tory MPs have had a bastard together - one of the MPs being an adulterer. It would be good to see his Association deselect him.

    Are you being serious? Don't you think this is a tad harsh?
    I am being serious actually. Would Theresa May or Thatcher have become PM had they had children born out of wedlock?
    I am not making a party political point here at all. A decade ago I was appalled when David Blunkett was so disappointed to find that he had NOT fathered a bastatrd by his lover! To think that this guy had once aspired to be a Methodist Minister!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Occasionally, a classmate of mine was ribbed for being a bastard. He took it in good humour.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,358

    Mr. Carp, I'm just being finickity :p

    It is a genuine point, though. Jews think he wasn't Christ, Christians think he was, and Muslims think he was a prophet.

    I'm trying really hard to resist quoting the Life of Brian here.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    The route to the PM calling an election is first to have primary legislation to cancel the fixed term parliament act. Only a simple majority is needed to do this.

    Then we will be back to where we were and the leader of the party in power deciding when to have an election.
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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    justin124 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    justin124 said:

    I see that standards have really collapsed in the House of Commons. Fancy openly announcing yesterday that two Tory MPs have had a bastard together - one of the MPs being an adulterer. It would be good to see his Association deselect him.

    A "bastard". Do you also call gay people "poofters"?
    A child born out of wedlock is by legal definition a bastard.
    Not any more. Bastardy was abolished as a legal concept by the Family Law Reform Act 1987.
This discussion has been closed.