I think it's stupid not to build this this line and not have the option of running trains from Birmingham to Paris/Brussels directly.
I reckon HS2 is going to be the railway equivalent of the M6 Toll.
I disagree. But we shall see.
The biggest threat to HS2 - still - is Euston, which might be a massive pit for money as well as engineering. It's worrying that they still don't appear to have a firm hand on the redevelopment.
As for the HS2-HS1 link: it was going to be a single line, built at massive expense alongside an existing line. It was a compromise. It was a nicety, not a must-have.
The whole idea seems like a massive money pit to me !
Thought I should say it before anywhere else but isn't United's area mainly London and hence even more remain?
But Tim Montgomerie, a big MUFC fan, is hardly in the remain camp.
Well so am I and I voted leaveormer.
That's a good idea.......let all the unsuccessful struggling backwaters have a vote on how to bring the successful wealthy world ranked super-cities down to their level,
Genius! I wonder which Political giant thought of that one
Thought I should say it before anywhere else but isn't United's area mainly London and hence even more remain?
But Tim Montgomerie, a big MUFC fan, is hardly in the remain camp.
Well so am I and I voted leave too. The table is another way of showing the divide between the big urban centres and the rest. Successful clubs tend to be in the former.
That's a good idea.......let all the unsuccessful struggling backwaters have a vote on how to bring the successful wealthy world ranked super-cities down to their level,
Genius! I wonder which Political giant thought of that one
My God ! Let the poor vote. Madness.
There was a poll on the news
A transitory moment in time when the newspapers were full of 'Calais' and terrorists trundling through Europe..
The craziness of setting up a vote that overturns 45 years of governance on what amounts to the whim of a very ignorant section of the population who know nothing beyond yesterday's headlines marshalled by a small number of right-wing opportunists
Brexit hasn't divided the country and brought it to the brink of ruination. Those divisions were already there, and have been since before the mere few decades of the EUs existence. Brexit has only dragged the divisions to the surface. It was always going to happen. We aren't divided because of Brexit, we're Brexiting because of the divide. You and your politics have left too many people behind.
As someone commented on both Brexit and Trump - both were bricks thrown through the establishment's window - NOW will you listen?
But it won't, will it? The establishment won. It always does. If you really want to shake it up, back Scottish independence. That would shake the establishment to its core.
How would I have changed HS2, if I was dictator and cost, ground conditions and politics were no problem:
I would have had Birmingham on the main route instead of a branch, with an underground through station beneath New Street, with enough capacity for some conventional regional trains on other routes, leaving the current station for other services.
I would have built Crossrail so it could take high-speed trains (at reduced speed), so it could be used for a couple of scheduled services per day from the north to the continent. Route-wise simple (they are near each other in west and east London), but sadly much harder in practice.
Thought I should say it before anywhere else but isn't United's area mainly London and hence even more remain?
But Tim Montgomerie, a big MUFC fan, is hardly in the remain camp.
Well so am I and I voted leave too. The table is another way of showing the divide between the big urban centres and the rest. Successful clubs tend to be in the former.
That's a good idea.......let all the unsuccessful struggling backwaters have a vote on how to bring the successful wealthy world ranked super-cities down to their level,
Genius! I wonder which Political giant thought of that one
Thought I should say it before anywhere else but isn't United's area mainly London and hence even more remain?
But Tim Montgomerie, a big MUFC fan, is hardly in the remain camp.
Well so am I and I voted leave too. The table is another way of showing the divide between the big urban centres and the rest. Successful clubs tend to be in the former.
That's a good idea.......let all the unsuccessful struggling backwaters have a vote on how to bring the successful wealthy world ranked super-cities down to their level,
Genius! I wonder which Political giant thought of that one
My God ! Let the poor vote. Madness.
There was a poll on the news yesterday which said that people's concerns had now shifted from
.
Can you define his politics as you are a just talking in cliches.
His politics is all the governments of the past half century. My politics too, I'll admit. Tory, Labour, the brief dalliance with the coalition. Vast swathes of the population feel disenfranchised. It hasn't worked well for many sectors of the population. I suppose people are just ready for a change. That change is manifested by Brexit. Now I know that "No matter how you vote, the bloody government always gets in" is a problem, and we can only vote for the people put up by the parties, and Brexit might be absolutely catastrophic, but the politics of the last 50 years is obsolete.
Cheers TFS well I am a third way bore , I liked the Bill. Clinton ,92 Blair 2007 years Maybe because it was good for me which always colours your perceptions.
Went through Birmingham New Street the other day. Seemed to have lost some of its old charm, looked suspiciously like one of those London stations I must say.
Went through Birmingham New Street the other day. Seemed to have lost some of its old charm, looked suspiciously like one of those London stations I must say.
I don't know about charm, a few years ago it was quietly simply crap.
Mr. Eagles, we're not in the US. It's my understanding that planes can still fly there from airlines based in the UK, though.
Mr. Monksfield, indeed. Though comparisons may be drawn between taxpayers' money being spent on the former Olympic stadium and how much is available for Headingley.
Cheers TFS well I am a third way bore , I liked the Bill. Clinton ,92 Blair 2007 years Maybe because it was good for me which always colours your perceptions.
Surely May is the third way now, steering a path between metropolitan liberalism and provincial nativism?
Hmm. At the other end of the league being in a remain supporting area isn't helping poor old Leyton Orient...
Has not helped York City non league and probably going out of that .However they beat in Lincoln City in a cup so having a day at Wembley maybe to say goodbye.York was heavily remain.
I actually voted Remain at the football/sports centre which accompanies Leyton Orient's ground.
Don't be so naive you knows what they say about democracy. Politicians have largely tried to enrich people and they have largely succeeded. Of course there will be exceptions but we have the least bad system and have achieved the least bad outcomes over the past 50 years.
How have you been left behind in the fire service?
Thought I should say it before anywhere else but isn't United's area mainly London and hence even more remain?
But Tim Montgomerie, a big MUFC fan, is hardly in the remain camp.
That's a good idea.......let all the unsuccessful struggling backwaters have a vote on how to bring the successful wealthy world ranked super-cities down to their level,
Genius! I wonder which Political giant thought of that one
My God ! Let the poor vote. Madness.
There was a poll on the news yesterday which said that people's concerns had now shifted from immigration to inflation falling wages and rising prices.
SURPRISE SURPRISE!
A transitory moment in time when the newspapers were full of 'Calais' and terrorists trundling through Europe..
The craziness of setting up a vote that overturns 45 years of governance on what amounts to the whim of a very ignorant section of the population who know nothing beyond yesterday's headlines marshalled by a small number of right-wing opportunists
Brexit hasn't divided the country and brought it to the brink of ruination. Those divisions were already there, and have been since before the mere few decades of the EUs existence. Brexit has only dragged the divisions to the surface. It was always going to happen. We aren't divided because of Brexit, we're Brexiting because of the divide. You and your politics have left too many people behind.
Yes, the divisions were there, but they were and are not much to do with Europe, and the referendum brought them into sharp relief. In Scotland it made unsustainable a political environment with three established parties (one dominant) on one side of the argument and one insurgent one on the other, when the population was divided pretty equally. With Brexit it has exposed a new liberal/conservative divide, forced the Tories to embrace one side of the argument (making ukip redundant) and left Labour stranded across the divide.
Cheers TFS well I am a third way bore , I liked the Bill. Clinton ,92 Blair 2007 years Maybe because it was good for me which always colours your perceptions.
Surely May is the third way now, steering a path between metropolitan liberalism and provincial nativism?
Cheers TFS well I am a third way bore , I liked the Bill. Clinton ,92 Blair 2007 years Maybe because it was good for me which always colours your perceptions.
Surely May is the third way now, steering a path between metropolitan liberalism and provincial nativism?
She's only pleasing the hard Brexiters though so I think you're wrong.
Thought I should say it before anywhere else but isn't United's area mainly London and hence even more remain?
But Tim Montgomerie, a big MUFC fan, is hardly in the remain camp.
Well so am I and I voted leave too. The table is another way of showing the divide between the big urban centres and the rest. Successful clubs tend to be in the former.
That's a good idea.......let all the unsuccessful struggling backwaters have a vote on how to bring the successful wealthy world ranked super-cities down to their level,
Genius! I wonder which Political giant thought of that one
Thought I should say it before anywhere else but isn't United's area mainly London and hence even more remain?
But Tim Montgomerie, a big MUFC fan, is hardly in the remain camp.
Well so am I and I voted leave too. The table is another way of showing the divide between the big urban centres and the rest. Successful clubs tend to be in the former.
That's a good idea.......let all the unsuccessful struggling backwaters have a vote on how to bring the successful wealthy world ranked super-cities down to their level,
Genius! I wonder which Political giant thought of that one
My God ! Let the poor vote. Madness.
There was a poll on the news yesterday which said that people's concerns had now shifted from
.
Can you define his politics as you are a just talking in cliches.
e.
Cheers TFS well I am a third way bore , I liked the Bill. Clinton ,92 Blair 2007 years Maybe because it was good for me which always colours your perceptions.
The 80s were a great decade for me. Just starting out in the world of work, money in my pocket for the first time in my life, but I know many more people who weren't doing so well. Had a lean time during the 90s, myself! I dunno what the answer is, and Brexit probably isn't it, but there's no party that is offering anything genuinely new, so Brexit it is.
Dear Lord you are a tit and a snob. The establishment have fixed things to their satisfaction for a long time and find it shocking, shocking I tell you, that those who haven't really shared in any joy from our EU membership chose to vote differently. I have an honours degree, two professional qualifications a six figure salary and yet I somehow was 'duped' into voting for the sovereignty of my own country's parliament because I'm an ignorant pleb? Up yours. You and your kind explain the vote and the ongoing divide.
He's thrashing about on your hook Roger, see if you can land him.
You'll never get him out of the water with that massive chip on his shoulder
Don't be so naive you knows what they say about democracy. Politicians have largely tried to enrich people and they have largely succeeded. Of course there will be exceptions but we have the least bad system and have achieved the least bad outcomes over the past 50 years.
How have you been left behind in the fire service?
Don't be so naive you knows what they say about democracy. Politicians have largely tried to enrich people and they have largely succeeded. Of course there will be exceptions but we have the least bad system and have achieved the least bad outcomes over the past 50 years.
How have you been left behind in the fire service?
Cheers TFS well I am a third way bore , I liked the Bill. Clinton ,92 Blair 2007 years Maybe because it was good for me which always colours your perceptions.
Surely May is the third way now, steering a path between metropolitan liberalism and provincial nativism?
She's only pleasing the hard Brexiters though so I think you're wrong.
I don't think that's true - I'm pretty happy so far. Preparing for the harder/messier versions of Brexit is surely sensible negotiating tactics. And of course the version of Brexit we get isn't entirely up to us.
Let's wait and see what the deal is. There will probably be trouble from the genuinely hard Brexiters at that point, as @AlastairMeeks pointed out the other day.
Cheers TFS well I am a third way bore , I liked the Bill. Clinton ,92 Blair 2007 years Maybe because it was good for me which always colours your perceptions.
Surely May is the third way now, steering a path between metropolitan liberalism and provincial nativism?
She's only pleasing the hard Brexiters though so I think you're wrong.
I think he's wrong too. A referendum polarises things, making a third way difficult to sustain. Labour's misfortune is to have suffered two referendums in a row where it has not been the principal champion of either side. May has been forced to pick up the Brexit side of the argument.
The interesting 'what if?' is had the EUref produced the expected narrow 'Remain'. Quite likely the Tories might have found themselves where Labour now is, with UKIP handed an opportunity akin to the SNP.
Dear Lord you are a tit and a snob. The establishment have fixed things to their satisfaction for a long time and find it shocking, shocking I tell you, that those who haven't really shared in any joy from our EU membership chose to vote differently. I have an honours degree, two professional qualifications a six figure salary and yet I somehow was 'duped' into voting for the sovereignty of my own country's parliament because I'm an ignorant pleb? Up yours. You and your kind explain the vote and the ongoing divide.
He's thrashing about on your hook Roger, see if you can land him.
You'll never get him out of the water with that massive chip on his shoulder
Not sure I have a chip so much as being highly irked by an 'anti democratic elitist snob' telling me that I'm ignorant because I value democracy and our long term future more than I value money and any short term pain of readjusting.
Cheers TFS well I am a third way bore , I liked the Bill. Clinton ,92 Blair 2007 years Maybe because it was good for me which always colours your perceptions.
Surely May is the third way now, steering a path between metropolitan liberalism and provincial nativism?
She's only pleasing the hard Brexiters though so I think you're wrong.
I think he's wrong too. A referendum polarises things, making a third way difficult to sustain. Labour's misfortune is to have suffered two referendums in a row where it has not been the principal champion of either side. May has been forced to pick up the Brexit side of the argument.
The interesting 'what if?' is had the EUref produced the expected narrow 'Remain'. Quite likely the Tories might have found themselves where Labour now is, with UKIP handed an opportunity akin to the SNP.
I have to say that I don't find spending time on 'what ifs' very interesting at all.
Trainspotting joke on a politics nerds website. Just need a sci-fi angle and it's a jackpot.
(Why on earth do you love the Co-Bo? They're the John Prescott of diesels)
I used to be rather acquainted with it, and vaguely knew the sort-of owner.
Aside from that: it's now a one-off and it's survival is a miracle, it's cutely odd, it used to operate the Condor services over a line I love, and it's a salutatory lesson in how not to do engineering.
Cheers TFS well I am a third way bore , I liked the Bill. Clinton ,92 Blair 2007 years Maybe because it was good for me which always colours your perceptions.
Surely May is the third way now, steering a path between metropolitan liberalism and provincial nativism?
She's only pleasing the hard Brexiters though so I think you're wrong.
I think he's wrong too. A referendum polarises things, making a third way difficult to sustain. Labour's misfortune is to have suffered two referendums in a row where it has not been the principal champion of either side. May has been forced to pick up the Brexit side of the argument.
The interesting 'what if?' is had the EUref produced the expected narrow 'Remain'. Quite likely the Tories might have found themselves where Labour now is, with UKIP handed an opportunity akin to the SNP.
Well the problem with referendums is indeed the polarisation (I write as someone who went in to 2016 a potential swing voter in the EU referendum). However, that's much more pronounced on here (or indeed your average social media feed) since those who care really care, and a narrow loss really turbocharges that side's supporters.
But many less-politicised people just expect the Government to respect the result (the fact of Leave's victory, but also the closeness of it) and get on with it. It's the Government's job to negotiate and the electorate will then judge them on that.
Btw, I agree that UKIP would probably be mid- to high-20s in a Remain world; we were discussing that on here yesterday afternoon!
Cheers TFS well I am a third way bore , I liked the Bill. Clinton ,92 Blair 2007 years Maybe because it was good for me which always colours your perceptions.
Surely May is the third way now, steering a path between metropolitan liberalism and provincial nativism?
Having pronounced citizens of the world to be citizens of nowhere, she's allied herself with the provincial nativists.
Trainspotting joke on a politics nerds website. Just need a sci-fi angle and it's a jackpot.
(Why on earth do you love the Co-Bo? They're the John Prescott of diesels)
I would see the Deltic as more of a Prescott myself. Chunky, makes alot of noise and emits plenty of smoke
No, no - the Deltics were powerful, imposing and slightly arrogant (that nose!), as well as trying to hide their bulk via a (unique) two-tone BR colour scheme clothing choice - before being swept away by a new generation. They were Gordon Brown.
Co-Bo's, by contrast, were very overweight, underpowered and prone to going wrong.
Don't be so naive you knows what they say about democracy. Politicians have largely tried to enrich people and they have largely succeeded. Of course there will be exceptions but we have the least bad system and have achieved the least bad outcomes over the past 50 years.
How have you been left behind in the fire service?
Absolutely.
The Fire Service is in Chaos. Funding cut across the board, piss poor management and Local Fire Authorities more concerned with empire building than the actual job. Not enough staff, fire deaths on the rise, standards cut to meet targets. I could go on, but it'd be boring..
Personally, I've not really been left behind so much, even though my total family income is about 40 grand a year, and not the 6 figure salary that seems to be the norm on here. I do know many people who struggle though. I interact with families and people of all cultures and ethnicities in my city, every day, and I genuinely see inequality, poverty, addiction, crime and vulnerable people and groups that are not sharing all the benefits that living in this country should grant. It's these people who want something different. They need something different. I don't go to fires in million pound mansions. I do go to fires in sublet flats that have far more people n them than there should be. Those poor sods at the Albanian car wash have to live somewhere.
Cheers TFS well I am a third way bore , I liked the Bill. Clinton ,92 Blair 2007 years Maybe because it was good for me which always colours your perceptions.
Surely May is the third way now, steering a path between metropolitan liberalism and provincial nativism?
Having pronounced citizens of the world to be citizens of nowhere, she's allied herself with the provincial nativists.
That and her Saddamesque approach of using foreign citizens as human shields.
The High Authority for Openness in Public Life (Haute Autorité Pour la Transparence de la Vie Publique) is set to publish financial declarations by each of the 11 candidates for the French presidency at 6pm French time today, 5pm GMT.
The documents will state what the candidates own, whether individually or jointly, including property, vehicles, other movable assets, and money in bank accounts, and who they owe debts to. They will not include details of their incomes.
Trainspotting joke on a politics nerds website. Just need a sci-fi angle and it's a jackpot.
(Why on earth do you love the Co-Bo? They're the John Prescott of diesels)
I used to be rather acquainted with it, and vaguely knew the sort-of owner.
Aside from that: it's now a one-off and it's survival is a miracle, it's cutely odd, it used to operate the Condor services over a line I love, and it's a salutatory lesson in how not to do engineering.
The latter may soon become clear with the IEP ...
What's not to love?
Ah well, I can understand the love for a survivor against the odds. At least, as long as it's not inflicting its unreliability on the general public.
Trainspotting joke on a politics nerds website. Just need a sci-fi angle and it's a jackpot.
(Why on earth do you love the Co-Bo? They're the John Prescott of diesels)
I would see the Deltic as more of a Prescott myself. Chunky, makes alot of noise and emits plenty of smoke
No, no - the Deltics were powerful, imposing and slightly arrogant (that nose!), as well as trying to hide their bulk via a (unique) two-tone BR colour scheme clothing choice - before being swept away by a new generation. They were Gordon Brown.
Co-Bo's, by contrast, were very overweight, underpowered and prone to going wrong.
in other words the Co-Bo were classic examples of British engineering at the time.
As someone commented on both Brexit and Trump - both were bricks thrown through the establishment's window - NOW will you listen?
I don't generally personalise things, but if you forgive me, I would say you are the most reliably establishment voice on here. The interesting point, though, is that in today's crazy world, the establishment needs to pretend to be "anti-establishment"
Dear Lord you are a tit and a snob. The establishment have fixed things to their satisfaction for a long time and find it shocking, shocking I tell you, that those who haven't really shared in any joy from our EU membership chose to vote differently. I have an honours degree, two professional qualifications a six figure salary and yet I somehow was 'duped' into voting for the sovereignty of my own country's parliament because I'm an ignorant pleb? Up yours. You and your kind explain the vote and the ongoing divide.
He's thrashing about on your hook Roger, see if you can land him.
You'll never get him out of the water with that massive chip on his shoulder
Not sure I have a chip so much as being highly irked by an 'anti democratic elitist snob' telling me that I'm ignorant because I value democracy and our long term future more than I value money and any short term pain of readjusting.
OK but seriously as an intelligent person you must realise that our problems and their solutions are extremely complex and simply blaming the EU or the "metropolitan elite" doesn't really cut it. Do you really think for example that all the other 27 EU nations have happily given away their "sovereignty" and only we in the UK understand it properly and want to "take back control"?
I am struggling to think off a democratic nation of any political stripe where there are not swathes of people that feel disenfranchised or left behind. My problem is that I genuinely believe that leaving the EU will not help them. Same as Trump, right problem, wrong solution.
Cheers TFS well I am a third way bore , I liked the Bill. Clinton ,92 Blair 2007 years Maybe because it was good for me which always colours your perceptions.
Surely May is the third way now, steering a path between metropolitan liberalism and provincial nativism?
Having pronounced citizens of the world to be citizens of nowhere, she's allied herself with the provincial nativists.
Well, third ways require a core vote. The point is to appeal to those in the middle of the spectrum who have aspects of both groups in their worldview.
Thought I should say it before anywhere else but isn't United's area mainly London and hence even more remain?
But Tim Montgomerie, a big MUFC fan, is hardly in the remain camp.
Well so am I and I voted leaveormer.
That's a good idea.......let all the unsuccessful struggling backwaters have a vote on how to bring the successful wealthy world ranked super-cities down to their level,
Genius! I wonder which Political giant thought of that one
Thought I should say it before anywhere else but isn't United's area mainly London and hence even more remain?
But Tim Montgomerie, a big MUFC fan, is hardly in the remain camp.
Well so am I and I voted leave too. The table is another way of showing the divide between the big urban centres and the rest. Successful clubs tend to be in the former.
That's a good idea.......let all the unsuccessful struggling backwaters have a vote on how to bring the successful wealthy world ranked super-cities down to their level,
Genius! I wonder which Political giant thought of that one
My God ! Let the poor vote. Madness.
There was a poll on the news
A transitory moment in time when the newspapers were full of 'Calais' and terrorists trundling through Europe.. who know nothing beyond yesterday's headlines marshalled by a small number of right-wing opportunists
Brexit hasn't divided the country and brought it to the brink of ruination. Those divisions were already there, and have been since before the mere few decades of the EUs existence. Brexit has only dragged the divisions to the surface. It was always going to happen. We aren't divided because of Brexit, we're Brexiting because of the divide. You and your politics have left too many people behind.
As someone commented on both Brexit and Trump - both were bricks thrown through the establishment's window - NOW will you listen?
But it won't, will it? The establishment won. It always does. If you really want to shake it up, back Scottish independence. That would shake the establishment to its core.
Trainspotting joke on a politics nerds website. Just need a sci-fi angle and it's a jackpot.
(Why on earth do you love the Co-Bo? They're the John Prescott of diesels)
I used to be rather acquainted with it, and vaguely knew the sort-of owner.
Aside from that: it's now a one-off and it's survival is a miracle, it's cutely odd, it used to operate the Condor services over a line I love, and it's a salutatory lesson in how not to do engineering.
The latter may soon become clear with the IEP ...
What's not to love?
Ah well, I can understand the love for a survivor against the odds. At least, as long as it's not inflicting its unreliability on the general public.
There is some debate about the general unreliability - and its causes - of many early diesels. Maintenance of the early diesels were somewhat hit-and-miss: a diesel class on one depot might have poor reliability, whilst on another shed they'd be reliable. Often it was a case of them sharing sheds with steam locos - the smoke, steam and soot playing havoc with the electrical and air systems.
Ireland had a very similar class of loco to the Co-Bo that kept running until the 1990s - ?class c?.
The latest French poll, entirely post-debate, shows exactly the results that Chris from Paris and others predicted - a small Melanchon surge (+2) moving him past Hamon, and Macron edging up with Le Pen falling back.
At this point, Macron seems a racing certainty, though of course one never rule out a black swan. Just possible to imagine Melanchon getting third ahead of the faltering Fillon, but that won't change anything in the final result.
OK but seriously as an intelligent person you must realise that our problems and their solutions are extremely complex and simply blaming the EU or the "metropolitan elite" doesn't really cut it. Do you really think for example that all the other 27 EU nations have happily given away their "sovereignty" and only we in the UK understand it properly and want to "take back control"?
I am struggling to think off a democratic nation of any political stripe where there are not swathes of people that feel disenfranchised or left behind. My problem is that I genuinely believe that leaving the EU will not help them. Same as Trump, right problem, wrong solution.
Leaving the EU will definitely make those problems much more difficult to solve. The tragedy is that the "liberal elite" (not particularly keen on that overloaded term but it will do here) failed to recognise there were problems until it was too late.
It's not really about the EU. Brexit, UKIP and Trump are all reactions to globalisation. In a highly interconnected world, success comes from playing the game well. Helping people to deal with globalisation would be much kinder and ultimately benefit everyone, rather than cynically saying, we can get you out of it and you will be so much better off.
The craziness of setting up a vote that overturns 45 years of governance on what amounts to the whim of a very ignorant section of the population who know nothing beyond yesterday's headlines marshalled by a small number of right-wing opportunists
"Whim"? You're just wrong. People took the opportunity to express feelings they'd had for decades but until then had not been able to express in what they considered to be an acceptable political channel. If you think it was all a whim, then you don't understand what happened. (I'm a Remainer, by the way.)
It's the idea that people's concerns have now "shifted from immigration to inflation falling wages and rising prices" that is the five-minute thing in the newspapers. Pollsters asked a stupid question and got stupid answers.
"You know those Poles who are doing your old job for a third of the wages? Well what annoys you the most? Is it that they're Polish, that your wages have fallen, that you can't afford to buy so much stuff in the shops, or that your housing conditions have deteriorated?"
I'm reminded of Jorge Luis Borges's fictitious taxonomy that divides animals into 14 categories:
Those that belong to the emperor Embalmed ones Those that are trained Suckling pigs Mermaids (or Sirens) Fabulous ones Stray dogs Those that are included in this classification Those that tremble as if they were mad Innumerable ones Those drawn with a very fine camel hair brush Et cetera Those that have just broken the flower vase Those that, at a distance, resemble flies
Dear Lord you are a tit and a snob. The establishment have fixed things to their satisfaction for a long time and find it shocking, shocking I tell you, that those who haven't really shared in any joy from our EU membership chose to vote differently. I have an honours degree, two professional qualifications a six figure salary and yet I somehow was 'duped' into voting for the sovereignty of my own country's parliament because I'm an ignorant pleb? Up yours. You and your kind explain the vote and the ongoing divide.
He's thrashing about on your hook Roger, see if you can land him.
You'll never get him out of the water with that massive chip on his shoulder
Not sure I have a chip so much as being highly irked by an 'anti democratic elitist snob' telling me that I'm ignorant because I value democracy and our long term future more than I value money and any short term pain of readjusting.
OK but seriously as an intelligent person you must realise that our problems and their solutions are extremely complex and simply blaming the EU or the "metropolitan elite" doesn't really cut it. Do you really think for example that all the other 27 EU nations have happily given away their "sovereignty" and only we in the UK understand it properly and want to "take back control"?
I am struggling to think off a democratic nation of any political stripe where there are not swathes of people that feel disenfranchised or left behind. My problem is that I genuinely believe that leaving the EU will not help them. Same as Trump, right problem, wrong solution.
Yep - the well-off Brexit elite are going to be sitting pretty. Those further down the ladder may end up feeling less delighted with the results of taking back control.
Cheers TFS well I am a third way bore , I liked the Bill. Clinton ,92 Blair 2007 years Maybe because it was good for me which always colours your perceptions.
Surely May is the third way now, steering a path between metropolitan liberalism and provincial nativism?
As MP for Maidenhead, her constituency seems very apt for who she is aiming to please.
Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes Times / YouGov GB weekly voting intention 20-21 Mar (changes since last wk) Con 41 (-3) Lab 25 (-2) LD 11 (+1) Ukip 12 (+3) Other 11 (+2)
SNP surge into England? From those wanting to be able to vote to get the Scots out....
The latest French poll, entirely post-debate, shows exactly the results that Chris from Paris and others predicted - a small Melanchon surge (+2) moving him past Hamon, and Macron edging up with Le Pen falling back.
At this point, Macron seems a racing certainty, though of course one never rule out a black swan.
Macron fidgeted so much during Monday's debate. If he manages to get into the second round, how will he cope when rather than having to speak a fifth of the time he has to speak for half of it?
Cheers TFS well I am a third way bore , I liked the Bill. Clinton ,92 Blair 2007 years Maybe because it was good for me which always colours your perceptions.
Surely May is the third way now, steering a path between metropolitan liberalism and provincial nativism?
As MP for Maidenhead, her constituency seems very apt for who she is aiming to please.
And of course, once you've lost your Maidenhead, you can't get it back.
Cheers TFS well I am a third way bore , I liked the Bill. Clinton ,92 Blair 2007 years Maybe because it was good for me which always colours your perceptions.
Surely May is the third way now, steering a path between metropolitan liberalism and provincial nativism?
As MP for Maidenhead, her constituency seems very apt for who she is aiming to please.
And of course, once you've lost your Maidenhead, you can't get it back.
OK but seriously as an intelligent person you must realise that our problems and their solutions are extremely complex and simply blaming the EU or the "metropolitan elite" doesn't really cut it. Do you really think for example that all the other 27 EU nations have happily given away their "sovereignty" and only we in the UK understand it properly and want to "take back control"?
I am struggling to think off a democratic nation of any political stripe where there are not swathes of people that feel disenfranchised or left behind. My problem is that I genuinely believe that leaving the EU will not help them. Same as Trump, right problem, wrong solution.
Leaving the EU will definitely make those problems much more difficult to solve. The tragedy is that the "liberal elite" (not particularly keen on that overloaded term but it will do here) failed to recognise there were problems until it was too late.
It's not really about the EU. Brexit, UKIP and Trump are all reactions to globalisation. In a highly interconnected world, success comes from playing the game well. Helping people to deal with globalisation would be much kinder and ultimately benefit everyone, rather than cynically saying, we can get you out of it and you will be so much better off.
Interesting stuff from you and Mr.T up-thread. However, you may wish to consider that you diagnosis of the reason why people voted to leave the EU may not be complete. People voted the way they did, on both sides, for a whole variety of reasons not just one. By ascribing a single motivation you risk misunderstanding what happened and what is going to happen.
The Brexit plebs are going to switch to Remain now.
Tesco has pulled more than half of Heineken’s beer and cider range after the brewer tried to increase prices on the products following the Brexit vote.
The supermarket has scrapped 31 of the company’s brands and is now stocking only 22 of the 53 it was selling at the start of the year.
Amstel, Sol, Tiger and Kingfisher names have all disappeared from its shelves, The Grocer reports.
You do have to wonder about Scottish education (Maths, Geography, History) when one very young Nat MP complained about a single city in England (London) having more MPs than Scotland......
I wonder if she read any of the replies.
You're assuming she can read.......
The arriviste snobbery of the Scotch migrant made good, always a joy.
Ah yes, No True Scot would dream of criticising the SNP's failing education policy.....
I see Bad Al has got himself a new job...editor at large of the massive selling New European. By massive selling I mean sells about a much in a year as Model Planes Monthly does every issue.
Dear Lord you are a tit and a snob. The establishment have fixed things to their satisfaction for a long time and find it shocking, shocking I tell you, that those who haven't really shared in any joy from our EU membership chose to vote differently. I have an honours degree, two professional qualifications a six figure salary and yet I somehow was 'duped' into voting for the sovereignty of my own country's parliament because I'm an ignorant pleb? Up yours. You and your kind explain the vote and the ongoing divide.
He's thrashing about on your hook Roger, see if you can land him.
You'll never get him out of the water with that massive chip on his shoulder
Not sure I have a chip so much as being highly irked by an 'anti democratic elitist snob' telling me that I'm ignorant because I value democracy and our long term future more than I value money and any short term pain of readjusting.
OK but seriously as an intelligent person you must realise that our problems and their solutions are extremely complex and simply blaming the EU or the "metropolitan elite" doesn't really cut it. Do you really think for example that all the other 27 EU nations have happily given away their "sovereignty" and only we in the UK understand it properly and want to "take back control"?
I am struggling to think off a democratic nation of any political stripe where there are not swathes of people that feel disenfranchised or left behind. My problem is that I genuinely believe that leaving the EU will not help them. Same as Trump, right problem, wrong solution.
Yep - the well-off Brexit elite are going to be sitting pretty. Those further down the ladder may end up feeling less delighted with the results of taking back control.
Cheers TFS well I am a third way bore , I liked the Bill. Clinton ,92 Blair 2007 years Maybe because it was good for me which always colours your perceptions.
Surely May is the third way now, steering a path between metropolitan liberalism and provincial nativism?
As MP for Maidenhead, her constituency seems very apt for who she is aiming to please.
And of course, once you've lost your Maidenhead, you can't get it back.
You get the impression it wouldn't be easily taken away....
The interesting point, though, is that in today's crazy world, the establishment needs to pretend to be "anti-establishment"
That has been true since shortly after the first world war. Then it got more so in the early 1960s: That Was The Week That Was, Private Eye, Monty Python. In 1967 the BBC showed the Beatles playing "All You Need is Love", in the first global broadcast. It's all about mass communications. "Teenager" was an advertising concept. Later, Nike practically invented the concept of "urban youth". I agree it's getting more so now, and more crazy.
I see Bad Al has got himself a new job...editor at large of the massive selling New European. By massive selling I mean sells about a much in a year as Model Planes Monthly does every issue.
He should just quit - and become editor at large for Model Planes Monthly. After all, the New Labour legacy now looks to have been constructed from balsa wood....
OK but seriously as an intelligent person you must realise that our problems and their solutions are extremely complex and simply blaming the EU or the "metropolitan elite" doesn't really cut it. Do you really think for example that all the other 27 EU nations have happily given away their "sovereignty" and only we in the UK understand it properly and want to "take back control"?
I am struggling to think off a democratic nation of any political stripe where there are not swathes of people that feel disenfranchised or left behind. My problem is that I genuinely believe that leaving the EU will not help them. Same as Trump, right problem, wrong solution.
Leaving the EU will definitely make those problems much more difficult to solve. The tragedy is that the "liberal elite" (not particularly keen on that overloaded term but it will do here) failed to recognise there were problems until it was too late.
It's not really about the EU. Brexit, UKIP and Trump are all reactions to globalisation. In a highly interconnected world, success comes from playing the game well. Helping people to deal with globalisation would be much kinder and ultimately benefit everyone, rather than cynically saying, we can get you out of it and you will be so much better off.
Interesting stuff from you and Mr.T up-thread. However, you may wish to consider that you diagnosis of the reason why people voted to leave the EU may not be complete. People voted the way they did, on both sides, for a whole variety of reasons not just one. By ascribing a single motivation you risk misunderstanding what happened and what is going to happen.
I accept that. There is a group that always has been firmly opposed to the EU for various reasons, as well as another that supports it instinctively. They are both minorities. Any vote like this will be carried by a group in the middle that are sceptical, but could be convinced, and who are presumably susceptible to opposing arguments of "don't upset the apple cart" and "time for a change".
The Brexit plebs are going to switch to Remain now.
Tesco has pulled more than half of Heineken’s beer and cider range after the brewer tried to increase prices on the products following the Brexit vote.
The supermarket has scrapped 31 of the company’s brands and is now stocking only 22 of the 53 it was selling at the start of the year.
Amstel, Sol, Tiger and Kingfisher names have all disappeared from its shelves, The Grocer reports.
Anybody who has ventured into Tescos beer isle in the past 3-6 months will have noticed that they have massively expanded their US craft beer range to fill the gap of rats piss brands made from Heineken.
I kinda of doubt the plebs will choosing Sierra Nevada Pale Ale at £2-2.50 for a small bottle.
I see Bad Al has got himself a new job...editor at large of the massive selling New European. By massive selling I mean sells about a much in a year as Model Planes Monthly does every issue.
I remember when Captain Bob brought out The European years ago as I was working in a newsagent at the time. 1st week: Supplied with 400 and returned 396 2nd week: Supplied with 400 and returned 400 It was funny seeing him on the TV boasting about it selling out everywhere.
YouGov has quite a bit on attitude to immigrants- which varies substantially by home country, and while white folks are generally preferred, far from all of them are and there are marked differences within South Asia.
Overall, do you think immigrants from each of the following parts of the world make a positive or negative contribution to life in Britain today?
The latest French poll, entirely post-debate, shows exactly the results that Chris from Paris and others predicted - a small Melanchon surge (+2) moving him past Hamon, and Macron edging up with Le Pen falling back.
At this point, Macron seems a racing certainty, though of course one never rule out a black swan.
Macron fidgeted so much during Monday's debate. If he manages to get into the second round, how will he cope when rather than having to speak a fifth of the time he has to speak for half of it?
It was a three-and-a-half hour debate.
Plus head to head will give him a lot more room to stay on the front foot.
OK but seriously as an intelligent person you must realise that our problems and their solutions are extremely complex and simply blaming the EU or the "metropolitan elite" doesn't really cut it. Do you really think for example that all the other 27 EU nations have happily given away their "sovereignty" and only we in the UK understand it properly and want to "take back control"?
I am struggling to think off a democratic nation of any political stripe where there are not swathes of people that feel disenfranchised or left behind. My problem is that I genuinely believe that leaving the EU will not help them. Same as Trump, right problem, wrong solution.
Leaving the EU will definitely make those problems much more difficult to solve. The tragedy is that the "liberal elite" (not particularly keen on that overloaded term but it will do here) failed to recognise there were problems until it was too late.
It's not really about the EU. Brexit, UKIP and Trump are all reactions to globalisation. In a highly interconnected world, success comes from playing the game well. Helping people to deal with globalisation would be much kinder and ultimately benefit everyone, rather than cynically saying, we can get you out of it and you will be so much better off.
Interesting stuff from you and Mr.T up-thread. However, you may wish to consider that you diagnosis of the reason why people voted to leave the EU may not be complete. People voted the way they did, on both sides, for a whole variety of reasons not just one. By ascribing a single motivation you risk misunderstanding what happened and what is going to happen.
More to the point, if you're going to ascribe one, it's the wrong one. They weren't narked off about globalization, they were narked off about immigration. What the heartlands of UKIPpery and Trumpery had in common was that they'd had basically no brown people since forever, then they had noticeable numbers of them.
Comments
https://twitter.com/ap/status/844489809208971264
I would have had Birmingham on the main route instead of a branch, with an underground through station beneath New Street, with enough capacity for some conventional regional trains on other routes, leaving the current station for other services.
I would have built Crossrail so it could take high-speed trains (at reduced speed), so it could be used for a couple of scheduled services per day from the north to the continent. Route-wise simple (they are near each other in west and east London), but sadly much harder in practice.
Totally redevelop Euston, properly.
But this is off-topic ...
Mr. Monksfield, indeed. Though comparisons may be drawn between taxpayers' money being spent on the former Olympic stadium and how much is available for Headingley.
I love the Co-Bo. The one survivor is being restored:
http://www.d8233.org.uk/5705.htm
Mary Berry: I've got the edge on Delia because I have children
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/22/mary-berry-got-edge-delia-have-children/
Am I the reason hey are in trouble?
Life good in the JCR?
Don't be so naive you knows what they say about democracy. Politicians have largely tried to enrich people and they have largely succeeded. Of course there will be exceptions but we have the least bad system and have achieved the least bad outcomes over the past 50 years.
How have you been left behind in the fire service?
(Why on earth do you love the Co-Bo? They're the John Prescott of diesels)
Let's wait and see what the deal is. There will probably be trouble from the genuinely hard Brexiters at that point, as @AlastairMeeks pointed out the other day.
The interesting 'what if?' is had the EUref produced the expected narrow 'Remain'. Quite likely the Tories might have found themselves where Labour now is, with UKIP handed an opportunity akin to the SNP.
http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/03/nick-boles-i-backed-remain-but-i-hope-other-mps-who-did-so-too-reject-these-lords-amendments-to-the-article-50-bill.html
I prefer to ponder 'what now?'
https://twitter.com/CapX/status/844499878462046211
Aside from that: it's now a one-off and it's survival is a miracle, it's cutely odd, it used to operate the Condor services over a line I love, and it's a salutatory lesson in how not to do engineering.
The latter may soon become clear with the IEP ...
What's not to love?
But many less-politicised people just expect the Government to respect the result (the fact of Leave's victory, but also the closeness of it) and get on with it. It's the Government's job to negotiate and the electorate will then judge them on that.
Btw, I agree that UKIP would probably be mid- to high-20s in a Remain world; we were discussing that on here yesterday afternoon!
https://twitter.com/MirrorFootball/status/844498793609510912
Co-Bo's, by contrast, were very overweight, underpowered and prone to going wrong.
Personally, I've not really been left behind so much, even though my total family income is about 40 grand a year, and not the 6 figure salary that seems to be the norm on here. I do know many people who struggle though. I interact with families and people of all cultures and ethnicities in my city, every day, and I genuinely see inequality, poverty, addiction, crime and vulnerable people and groups that are not sharing all the benefits that living in this country should grant. It's these people who want something different. They need something different.
I don't go to fires in million pound mansions. I do go to fires in sublet flats that have far more people n them than there should be. Those poor sods at the Albanian car wash have to live somewhere.
JCR? Yeah, it probably is.
The documents will state what the candidates own, whether individually or jointly, including property, vehicles, other movable assets, and money in bank accounts, and who they owe debts to. They will not include details of their incomes.
Every game is a cup final etc.
I am struggling to think off a democratic nation of any political stripe where there are not swathes of people that feel disenfranchised or left behind. My problem is that I genuinely believe that leaving the EU will not help them. Same as Trump, right problem, wrong solution.
Ireland had a very similar class of loco to the Co-Bo that kept running until the 1990s - ?class c?.
At this point, Macron seems a racing certainty, though of course one never rule out a black swan. Just possible to imagine Melanchon getting third ahead of the faltering Fillon, but that won't change anything in the final result.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_French_presidential_election,_2017
It's not really about the EU. Brexit, UKIP and Trump are all reactions to globalisation. In a highly interconnected world, success comes from playing the game well. Helping people to deal with globalisation would be much kinder and ultimately benefit everyone, rather than cynically saying, we can get you out of it and you will be so much better off.
It's the idea that people's concerns have now "shifted from immigration to inflation falling wages and rising prices" that is the five-minute thing in the newspapers. Pollsters asked a stupid question and got stupid answers.
"You know those Poles who are doing your old job for a third of the wages? Well what annoys you the most? Is it that they're Polish, that your wages have fallen, that you can't afford to buy so much stuff in the shops, or that your housing conditions have deteriorated?"
I'm reminded of Jorge Luis Borges's fictitious taxonomy that divides animals into 14 categories:
Those that belong to the emperor
Embalmed ones
Those that are trained
Suckling pigs
Mermaids (or Sirens)
Fabulous ones
Stray dogs
Those that are included in this classification
Those that tremble as if they were mad
Innumerable ones
Those drawn with a very fine camel hair brush
Et cetera
Those that have just broken the flower vase
Those that, at a distance, resemble flies
Latest Westminster voting intention (Mar 20-21)
Con - 41%
Lab - 25%
LD - 11%
UKIP - 12%
Oth - 11%
https://t.co/BNelWf2vxx https://t.co/p5vOKCtAk1
(which is great for effort but doesn't half mess up opinion polls)
The good news is that millionaires are happy:
http://www.cityam.com/261406/british-millionaires-bullish-brexit-economys-performance
Mrs McTrump's hissy fit has paid off:
Con: 19
Lab: 18
SNP: 54
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/tksnufybtn/TimesResultsResults_170321_VI_Immigration_W.pdf
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4323848/Questions-credibility-Trump-spy-claim-originator.html
Tesco has pulled more than half of Heineken’s beer and cider range after the brewer tried to increase prices on the products following the Brexit vote.
The supermarket has scrapped 31 of the company’s brands and is now stocking only 22 of the 53 it was selling at the start of the year.
Amstel, Sol, Tiger and Kingfisher names have all disappeared from its shelves, The Grocer reports.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/tesco-scraps-beers-and-ciders-in-brexit-price-row-a3495826.html
Wine bar is looking likely....unless SeanT can somehow sign more than 4 of us into the Groucho....
I kinda of doubt the plebs will choosing Sierra Nevada Pale Ale at £2-2.50 for a small bottle.
1st week: Supplied with 400 and returned 396
2nd week: Supplied with 400 and returned 400
It was funny seeing him on the TV boasting about it selling out everywhere.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/waitrose-facing-backlash-after-new-free-tea-and-coffee-rules-forces-customers-to-buy-items-first-a3495106.html
Overall, do you think immigrants from each of the following parts of the world make a positive or negative contribution to life in Britain today?
Net positive:
USA +37
Poland: +33
Ireland: +42
Romania: -20
Germany: +40
Australia: +48
India: +26
Pakistan: +1
Bangaladesh: 0
Somalia: -25
Nigeria: -21
It was a three-and-a-half hour debate.
Plus head to head will give him a lot more room to stay on the front foot.