In two hours. I think that may be a personal best, possibly even a world record?
I am very certain people will have written more in that time. Of a story? Still probably. Of comparable quality? In sufficient facts to determine the matter.
What’s a reasonable length for a book to be considered a novel rather than a novella. And what’s a saleable length for either. I ask because I’ve written something .... not for the same markets as Mr T or Mr D ..... and I’m terying to decide whether to add more to it. I’ve got a nice beginning and a satisfactory end. Currently its about 32,000 words.
In two hours. I think that may be a personal best, possibly even a world record?
I am very certain people will have written more in that time. Of a story? Still probably. Of comparable quality? In sufficient facts to determine the matter.
What’s a reasonable length for a book to be considered a novel rather than a novella. And what’s a saleable length for either. I ask because I’ve written something .... not for the same markets as Mr T or Mr D ..... and I’m terying to decide whether to add more to it. I’ve got a nice beginning and a satisfactory end. Currently its about 32,000 words.
Others are better placed than me to answer that (Though happy to report I chopped down a story I'd written from 380,000 to 250,000, much more managable), although I've seen first time authors get books which must be 300,000 words published, but it is pretty rare, someone clearly thought they were going to be huge.
You raise an interesting point though - when does a short story become a novella, and then become a novel? Purely as a reader I feel like a novella needs to be 50-100 pages at least, short but enough to sink your teeth into, and so 25000 to
Mr. kle4, I read somewhere that Ken Follett was told Pillars of the Earth had to be a trilogy, because of its size. He told them to bugger off. Checking Amazon, it seems to be 1,104 pages long.
Of course, he's a big beast. Most others in that situation would go along with it.
Sir Edric's Temple I described as a novella. It was around 37-40,000 words long (available alongside the similarly sized Sir Edric's Treasure in a single volume, incidentally).
These things do vary a bit. With fantasy (although the stereotype is overplayed) you can be a bit longer. Commercial thrillers (obviously Mr. T can offer better info here) can be a bit shorter.
Batten down the hatches in preparation for the torrent of PB outrage railing against liberal US sticking their noses into our business.
Outside opinions are like experts - fine so long as they sat the right thing. This is not a phenomenon unique to anyone of course. Who is the worst at it is the question?
It comes after Alfonso Dastis, the Spanish foreign minister, said: “Spain supports the integrity of the United Kingdom and does not encourage secessions or divisions in any of the member states. We prefer things as they are.”
Mr Dastis added that Scotland would “have to queue, meet the requirements for entry, hold negotiations and the result would be that these negotiations would take place”.
In two hours. I think that may be a personal best, possibly even a world record?
I am very certain people will have written more in that time. Of a story? Still probably. Of comparable quality? In sufficient facts to determine the matter.
How does Sugar earn his money these days? I seemed to remember a lot of it is property development...like his American counterpart on that show whose name I have forgotten.
In two hours. I think that may be a personal best, possibly even a world record?
I am very certain people will have written more in that time. Of a story? Still probably. Of comparable quality? In sufficient facts to determine the matter.
What’s a reasonable length for a book to be considered a novel rather than a novella. And what’s a saleable length for either. I ask because I’ve written something .... not for the same markets as Mr T or Mr D ..... and I’m terying to decide whether to add more to it. I’ve got a nice beginning and a satisfactory end. Currently its about 32,000 words.
80,000-90,000 is the sweet spot for most thrillers, commercial fiction, etc. Fantasy and Young Adult can be shorter or longer (paradoxically). Sci fi is usually shorter, say 75,000. Chickfic, is a bit shorter too, 70,000-80,000. Memoirs and travel books can be anything from 65,000-100,000, sometimes a bit more.
Ambitious thrillers and genre novels can stray towards 100,000, but they start to make agents and editors nervous. You really have to be either a genius, or already a bestseller, or ready to risk refusal, if you go over 110,000
A novella is anything under 40-50,000. They are very hard to sell (though of course some of the greatest works in history count as novellas - Animal Farm had just 30,000 words)
You learn something new every day. A new movie adaptation of that is currently in production using state of the art VFX, Mr Gollum (Andy Serkis) led.
In two hours. I think that may be a personal best, possibly even a world record?
I am very certain people will have written more in that time. Of a story? Still probably. Of comparable quality? In sufficient facts to determine the matter.
What’s a reasonable length for a book to be considered a novel rather than a novella. And what’s a saleable length for either. I ask because I’ve written something .... not for the same markets as Mr T or Mr D ..... and I’m terying to decide whether to add more to it. I’ve got a nice beginning and a satisfactory end. Currently its about 32,000 words.
80,000-90,000 is the sweet spot for most thrillers, commercial fiction, etc. Fantasy and Young Adult can be shorter or longer (paradoxically). Sci fi is usually shorter, say 75,000. Chickfic, is a bit shorter too, 70,000-80,000. Memoirs and travel books can be anything from 65,000-100,000, sometimes a bit more.
Ambitious thrillers and genre novels can stray towards 100,000, but they start to make agents and editors nervous. You really have to be either a genius, or already a bestseller, or ready to risk refusal, if you go over 110,000
A novella is anything under 40-50,000. They are very hard to sell (though of course some of the greatest works in history count as novellas - Animal Farm had just 30,000 words)
I believe Animal Farm proved hard to sell to publishers, at least initially.
In two hours. I think that may be a personal best, possibly even a world record?
I am very certain people will have written more in that time. Of a story? Still probably. Of comparable quality? In sufficient facts to determine the matter.
What’s a reasonable length for a book to be considered a novel rather than a novella. And what’s a saleable length for either. I ask because I’ve written something .... not for the same markets as Mr T or Mr D ..... and I’m terying to decide whether to add more to it. I’ve got a nice beginning and a satisfactory end. Currently its about 32,000 words.
80,000-90,000 is the sweet spot for most thrillers, commercial fiction, etc. Fantasy and Young Adult can be shorter or longer (paradoxically). Sci fi is usually shorter, say 75,000. Chickfic, is a bit shorter too, 70,000-80,000. Memoirs and travel books can be anything from 65,000-100,000, sometimes a bit more.
Ambitious thrillers and genre novels can stray towards 100,000, but they start to make agents and editors nervous. You really have to be either a genius, or already a bestseller, or ready to risk refusal, if you go over 110,000
A novella is anything under 40-50,000. They are very hard to sell (though of course some of the greatest works in history count as novellas - Animal Farm had just 30,000 words)
I believe Animal Farm proved hard to sell to publishers, at least initially.
According to the Grauniad, rejected by at least four publishers including TS Eliot.
BBC Archive #Onthisday 1995: Alan Sugar was delivering a boardroom barracking over the idea of using email. It'll never catch on... https://t.co/T4150m3pLz
Bit like IBM and personal computers, then. And didn’t he give Katie Hopkins a job?
Didn't Bill Gates once think no PC would ever need more than 640KB memory ?
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, president of IBM, 1943
Fake quote. The semi-truth behind the mythical quote was that when the sales guys went out to sell the first production grade mainframe (701?) they all thought that success would be selling 5. They sold 18.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
BBC Archive #Onthisday 1995: Alan Sugar was delivering a boardroom barracking over the idea of using email. It'll never catch on... https://t.co/T4150m3pLz
Bit like IBM and personal computers, then. And didn’t he give Katie Hopkins a job?
Didn't Bill Gates once think no PC would ever need more than 640KB memory ?
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, president of IBM, 1943
Fake quote. The semi-truth behind the mythical quote was that when the sales guys went out to sell the first production grade mainframe (701?) they all thought that success would be selling 5. They sold 18.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
I was told the other week that for many authors these days they make their money by public speaking, apparently school "gigs" can be quite lucrative, and teaching others to write.
Mr. Malmesbury, interesting. Sounds a bit like what Apple try to do by making products that only easily integrate with other Apple hardware.
Works to some extent, but Microsoft keep trying it with things that are already out of their control.
Microsoft never really made it work - they weren't offering carrots, just sticks. Apple say - buy our stuff, come into our lovely walled garden. But they left plenty of doors and windows in the garden walls. Apple realised that to get people to stay - they have to want to.
BBC Archive #Onthisday 1995: Alan Sugar was delivering a boardroom barracking over the idea of using email. It'll never catch on... https://t.co/T4150m3pLz
Wow - hasn't he aged over the past 22 years - probably as a result of having to deal with tens of thousands of emails over that period!
Still, not as bad as the guys at DEC who said the PC would never catch on, or, indeed, Bill Gates who derided the Internet.
Paul Krugman said the internet was just a fad...whose impact on the economy will be no greater than the fax machine.
He gets very prickly if people pull him up on this though. By prickly I mean he screams no fair, no fair, it wasn't suppose to be a serious article, it was supposed to be fun, I am an economist not a technology person, no fair, no fair...wwwaaahhhhhhh.
Rather than just say hey I simply got it wrong.
Krugman is unable to say he got it wrong. Or that his ideas are a point of view. According to him, he is Sage Pronouncing The Truth.
In two hours. I think that may be a personal best, possibly even a world record?
I am very certain people will have written more in that time. Of a story? Still probably. Of comparable quality? In sufficient facts to determine the matter.
What’s a reasonable length for a book to be considered a novel rather than a novella. And what’s a saleable length for either. I ask because I’ve written something .... not for the same markets as Mr T or Mr D ..... and I’m terying to decide whether to add more to it. I’ve got a nice beginning and a satisfactory end. Currently its about 32,000 words.
80,000-90,000 is the sweet spot for most thrillers, commercial fiction, etc. Fantasy and Young Adult can be shorter or longer (paradoxically). Sci fi is usually shorter, say 75,000. Chickfic, is a bit shorter too, 70,000-80,000. Memoirs and travel books can be anything from 65,000-100,000, sometimes a bit more.
Ambitious thrillers and genre novels can stray towards 100,000, but they start to make agents and editors nervous. You really have to be either a genius, or already a bestseller, or ready to risk refusal, if you go over 110,000
A novella is anything under 40-50,000. They are very hard to sell (though of course some of the greatest works in history count as novellas - Animal Farm had just 30,000 words)
I believe Animal Farm proved hard to sell to publishers, at least initially.
According to the Grauniad, rejected by at least four publishers including TS Eliot.
Because of it's content - books attacking the Soviet Union didn't go down well with left wing publishing houses.
BBC Archive #Onthisday 1995: Alan Sugar was delivering a boardroom barracking over the idea of using email. It'll never catch on... https://t.co/T4150m3pLz
Wow - hasn't he aged over the past 22 years - probably as a result of having to deal with tens of thousands of emails over that period!
Still, not as bad as the guys at DEC who said the PC would never catch on, or, indeed, Bill Gates who derided the Internet.
Paul Krugman said the internet was just a fad...whose impact on the economy will be no greater than the fax machine.
He gets very prickly if people pull him up on this though. By prickly I mean he screams no fair, no fair, it wasn't suppose to be a serious article, it was supposed to be fun, I am an economist not a technology person, no fair, no fair...wwwaaahhhhhhh.
Rather than just say hey I simply got it wrong.
Krugman is unable to say he got it wrong. Or that his ideas are a point of view. According to him, he is Sage Pronouncing The Truth.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
I was told the other week that for many authors these days they make their money by public speaking, apparently school "gigs" can be quite lucrative, and teaching others to write.
It is very bleak for writers at the moment. Average salary is £11K, according to a survey a couple of years ago by Society of Authors. A tiny % earn the big bucks and drink champagne with interns most of the day (you know who I mean :-) ). For the rest, its tough. Advances well down, mid-list authors being dropped, endless chasing of the safe options etc etc.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
I was told the other week that for many authors these days they make their money by public speaking, apparently school "gigs" can be quite lucrative, and teaching others to write.
Don't know about school gigs (except that there was a big fuss about them a few years ago when a number of authors, including Philip Pullman, were told they had to start paying for public liability insurance if they wanted to carry on doing them, which didn't go down well). There are things like writer-in-residence places and writing fellowships that are basically teaching people people how to write and are very popular. I had a Royal Literary Fund fellowship at a university for a couple of years. The trouble is I think that these things are supposed to support you while you are working on the great novel or play or whatever but they end up being a crutch.
Well, I've sat down and read Macron's tome, Revolution, and I remain unsure of what he really stands for. More worryingly, I suspect he feels the same.
In two hours. I think that may be a personal best, possibly even a world record?
I am very certain people will have written more in that time. Of a story? Still probably. Of comparable quality? In sufficient facts to determine the matter.
What’s a reasonable length for a book to be considered a novel rather than a novella. And what’s a saleable length for either. I ask because I’ve written something .... not for the same markets as Mr T or Mr D ..... and I’m terying to decide whether to add more to it. I’ve got a nice beginning and a satisfactory end. Currently its about 32,000 words.
80,000-90,000 is the sweet spot for most thrillers, commercial fiction, etc. Fantasy and Young Adult can be shorter or longer (paradoxically). Sci fi is usually shorter, say 75,000. Chickfic, is a bit shorter too, 70,000-80,000. Memoirs and travel books can be anything from 65,000-100,000, sometimes a bit more.
Ambitious thrillers and genre novels can stray towards 100,000, but they start to make agents and editors nervous. You really have to be either a genius, or already a bestseller, or ready to risk refusal, if you go over 110,000
A novella is anything under 40-50,000. They are very hard to sell (though of course some of the greatest works in history count as novellas - Animal Farm had just 30,000 words)
I believe Animal Farm proved hard to sell to publishers, at least initially.
According to the Grauniad, rejected by at least four publishers including TS Eliot.
Because of it's content - books attacking the Soviet Union didn't go down well with left wing publishing houses.
I see Ulysses was originally rejected too... is that book any good? I tried reading it when I was about 15 and it seemed like gobbledegook
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
There are probably 100,000 pro or semi-pro writers in the UK. Probably 1000 of them make a good living, i.e. over £50,000 a year?
Probably 100, at most, make £250,000 a year or more: so just 1 in 1000 writers makes very serious dosh.
Probably 10 make a million a year, or more. And are just stupidly rich.
So other than JK and yourself, who are the other 8 ;-)
In two hours. I think that may be a personal best, possibly even a world record?
I am very certain people will have written more in that time. Of a story? Still probably. Of comparable quality? In sufficient facts to determine the matter.
What’s a reasonable length for a book to be considered a novel rather than a novella. And what’s a saleable length for either. I ask because I’ve written something .... not for the same markets as Mr T or Mr D ..... and I’m terying to decide whether to add more to it. I’ve got a nice beginning and a satisfactory end. Currently its about 32,000 words.
80,000-90,000 is the sweet spot for most thrillers, commercial fiction, etc. Fantasy and Young Adult can be shorter or longer (paradoxically). Sci fi is usually shorter, say 75,000. Chickfic, is a bit shorter too, 70,000-80,000. Memoirs and travel books can be anything from 65,000-100,000, sometimes a bit more.
Ambitious thrillers and genre novels can stray towards 100,000, but they start to make agents and editors nervous. You really have to be either a genius, or already a bestseller, or ready to risk refusal, if you go over 110,000
A novella is anything under 40-50,000. They are very hard to sell (though of course some of the greatest works in history count as novellas - Animal Farm had just 30,000 words)
I believe Animal Farm proved hard to sell to publishers, at least initially.
According to the Grauniad, rejected by at least four publishers including TS Eliot.
Because of it's content - books attacking the Soviet Union didn't go down well with left wing publishing houses.
That wouldn't have troubled Eliot. His problem was that he didn't think an anthropomorphic animal book would sell. A few decades later one Richard Adams ran into the same objection.
BBC Archive #Onthisday 1995: Alan Sugar was delivering a boardroom barracking over the idea of using email. It'll never catch on... https://t.co/T4150m3pLz
Wow - hasn't he aged over the past 22 years - probably as a result of having to deal with tens of thousands of emails over that period!
Still, not as bad as the guys at DEC who said the PC would never catch on, or, indeed, Bill Gates who derided the Internet.
Paul Krugman said the internet was just a fad...whose impact on the economy will be no greater than the fax machine.
He gets very prickly if people pull him up on this though. By prickly I mean he screams no fair, no fair, it wasn't suppose to be a serious article, it was supposed to be fun, I am an economist not a technology person, no fair, no fair...wwwaaahhhhhhh.
Rather than just say hey I simply got it wrong.
Krugman is unable to say he got it wrong. Or that his ideas are a point of view. According to him, he is Sage Pronouncing The Truth.
Agree 100%. His insistence that the Euro is an epic mistake because it doesn't fit his doctrinaire Keynesian view of the world is a notable example of this.
In two hours. I think that may be a personal best, possibly even a world record?
I am very certain people will have written more in that time. Of a story? Still probably. Of comparable quality? In sufficient facts to determine the matter.
What’s a reasonable length for a book to be considered a novel rather than a novella. And what’s a saleable length for either. I ask because I’ve written something .... not for the same markets as Mr T or Mr D ..... and I’m terying to decide whether to add more to it. I’ve got a nice beginning and a satisfactory end. Currently its about 32,000 words.
80,000-90,000 is the sweet spot for most thrillers, commercial fiction, etc. Fantasy and Young Adult can be shorter or longer (paradoxically). Sci fi is usually shorter, say 75,000. Chickfic, is a bit shorter too, 70,000-80,000. Memoirs and travel books can be anything from 65,000-100,000, sometimes a bit more.
Ambitious thrillers and genre novels can stray towards 100,000, but they start to make agents and editors nervous. You really have to be either a genius, or already a bestseller, or ready to risk refusal, if you go over 110,000
A novella is anything under 40-50,000. They are very hard to sell (though of course some of the greatest works in history count as novellas - Animal Farm had just 30,000 words)
I believe Animal Farm proved hard to sell to publishers, at least initially.
According to the Grauniad, rejected by at least four publishers including TS Eliot.
Because of it's content - books attacking the Soviet Union didn't go down well with left wing publishing houses.
It was published towards the end of World War 2, when many felt kindly to Uncle Joe, and to the 20m Russians who had just died defeating Nazism, so I can sympathise with the publishers, to an extent.
The ones who said - "I won't publish anything that is not pro-socialist (sic) countries, because I am a loyal Socialist" deserve the Walter Duranty prize for being scum, though.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
There are probably 100,000 pro or semi-pro writers in the UK. Probably 1000 of them make a good living, i.e. over £50,000 a year?
Probably 100, at most, make £250,000 a year or more: so just 1 in 1000 writers makes very serious dosh.
Probably 10 make a million a year, or more. And are just stupidly rich.
So other than JK and yourself, who are the other 8 ;-)
I wish. In a good year I'm in that top 100, just about. Certainly not in that top 10.
Rowling is one. I suspect JoJo Moyes is another. Paula Hawkins these last two years. E L James, still.
Mostly women.
Julia Donaldson is the winner, at least in early 2016 -
BBC Archive #Onthisday 1995: Alan Sugar was delivering a boardroom barracking over the idea of using email. It'll never catch on... https://t.co/T4150m3pLz
Wow - hasn't he aged over the past 22 years - probably as a result of having to deal with tens of thousands of emails over that period!
Still, not as bad as the guys at DEC who said the PC would never catch on, or, indeed, Bill Gates who derided the Internet.
Paul Krugman said the internet was just a fad...whose impact on the economy will be no greater than the fax machine.
He gets very prickly if people pull him up on this though. By prickly I mean he screams no fair, no fair, it wasn't suppose to be a serious article, it was supposed to be fun, I am an economist not a technology person, no fair, no fair...wwwaaahhhhhhh.
Rather than just say hey I simply got it wrong.
Krugman is unable to say he got it wrong. Or that his ideas are a point of view. According to him, he is Sage Pronouncing The Truth.
Agree 100%. His insistence that the Euro is an epic mistake because it doesn't fit his doctrinaire Keynesian view of the world is a notable example of this.
He also believes that "austerity" has turned the UK into an empty wasteland with 65 million unemployed.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
I was told the other week that for many authors these days they make their money by public speaking, apparently school "gigs" can be quite lucrative, and teaching others to write.
It is very bleak for writers at the moment. Average salary is £11K, according to a survey a couple of years ago by Society of Authors. A tiny % earn the big bucks and drink champagne with interns most of the day (you know who I mean :-) ). For the rest, its tough. Advances well down, mid-list authors being dropped, endless chasing of the safe options etc etc.
£11k a year ? The two women who work in my warehouse earn more than £23k a year. But I pay above the market rate.
It comes after Alfonso Dastis, the Spanish foreign minister, said: “Spain supports the integrity of the United Kingdom and does not encourage secessions or divisions in any of the member states. We prefer things as they are.”
Mr Dastis added that Scotland would “have to queue, meet the requirements for entry, hold negotiations and the result would be that these negotiations would take place”.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
I was told the other week that for many authors these days they make their money by public speaking, apparently school "gigs" can be quite lucrative, and teaching others to write.
It is very bleak for writers at the moment. Average salary is £11K, according to a survey a couple of years ago by Society of Authors. A tiny % earn the big bucks and drink champagne with interns most of the day (you know who I mean :-) ). For the rest, its tough. Advances well down, mid-list authors being dropped, endless chasing of the safe options etc etc.
£11k a year ? The two women who work in my warehouse earn more than £23k a year. But I pay above the market rate.
I think you have got the £11k wrong by £10k.
No - see article below. £11K. Most authors struggle desperately and probably actually rely on a partner who has a 'sensible' job.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
I was told the other week that for many authors these days they make their money by public speaking, apparently school "gigs" can be quite lucrative, and teaching others to write.
It is very bleak for writers at the moment. Average salary is £11K, according to a survey a couple of years ago by Society of Authors. A tiny % earn the big bucks and drink champagne with interns most of the day (you know who I mean :-) ). For the rest, its tough. Advances well down, mid-list authors being dropped, endless chasing of the safe options etc etc.
£11k a year ? The two women who work in my warehouse earn more than £23k a year. But I pay above the market rate.
I think you have got the £11k wrong by £10k.
The 11K is the money people are making writing - not their total income. The number of writers who live primarily on their writing is vanishingly small.
Lots of struggling writers working x number of jobs.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
There are probably 100,000 pro or semi-pro writers in the UK. Probably 1000 of them make a good living, i.e. over £50,000 a year?
Probably 100, at most, make £250,000 a year or more: so just 1 in 1000 writers makes very serious dosh.
Probably 10 make a million a year, or more. And are just stupidly rich.
It's a sad fact that there are far more people who are artistically gifted than there are full time jobs in the arts.
My step-son's a very talented dancer and performer who is doing well, but so many of his very talented contemporaries never made it.
It comes after Alfonso Dastis, the Spanish foreign minister, said: “Spain supports the integrity of the United Kingdom and does not encourage secessions or divisions in any of the member states. We prefer things as they are.”
Mr Dastis added that Scotland would “have to queue, meet the requirements for entry, hold negotiations and the result would be that these negotiations would take place”.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
There are probably 100,000 pro or semi-pro writers in the UK. Probably 1000 of them make a good living, i.e. over £50,000 a year?
Probably 100, at most, make £250,000 a year or more: so just 1 in 1000 writers makes very serious dosh.
Probably 10 make a million a year, or more. And are just stupidly rich.
So other than JK and yourself, who are the other 8 ;-)
I wish. In a good year I'm in that top 100, just about. Certainly not in that top 10.
Rowling is one. I suspect JoJo Moyes is another. Paula Hawkins these last two years. E L James, still.
Mostly women.
Out of interest, how much do you make from lendings by UK libraries?
It comes after Alfonso Dastis, the Spanish foreign minister, said: “Spain supports the integrity of the United Kingdom and does not encourage secessions or divisions in any of the member states. We prefer things as they are.”
Mr Dastis added that Scotland would “have to queue, meet the requirements for entry, hold negotiations and the result would be that these negotiations would take place”.
It may have been covered on here already but the story that George put himself forward to Edit London Evening Standard sounds nonsense to me. Russians wanting to control gotvt.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
I was told the other week that for many authors these days they make their money by public speaking, apparently school "gigs" can be quite lucrative, and teaching others to write.
It is very bleak for writers at the moment. Average salary is £11K, according to a survey a couple of years ago by Society of Authors. A tiny % earn the big bucks and drink champagne with interns most of the day (you know who I mean :-) ). For the rest, its tough. Advances well down, mid-list authors being dropped, endless chasing of the safe options etc etc.
£11k a year ? The two women who work in my warehouse earn more than £23k a year. But I pay above the market rate.
I think you have got the £11k wrong by £10k.
Most writers wouldn't be living on their earnings from writing and nothing else. And lots of people who write non-fiction are doing so to acquire eminence, rather than to make a living.
Dr. Foxinsox, what's the advantage of that over self-publishing?
Unless you're selling loads, the numbers stack up better, usually, to self-publish because there's no agent/publisher taking a cut. At the top end, the traditional model still works best (see Mr. T).
Anyway, I've got two exciting new ideas for this year (one of which should've already been out, but for technical problems). After that, assuming I don't enjoy an obnoxious degree of success, I'm going to have to change the way I do things.
A novel (lower end) would be around 60-80,000, I'd say. People sometimes overestimate fantasy (mind are slightly on the long side, usually around 95-100,000).
However, try not to just pad or bloat. If adding more improves the book, by all means do it. But don't try to hit a word count. The words are there to tell a story, the story isn't there to hit a word count.
Dr. Foxinsox, what's the advantage of that over self-publishing?
Unless you're selling loads, the numbers stack up better, usually, to self-publish because there's no agent/publisher taking a cut. At the top end, the traditional model still works best (see Mr. T).
Anyway, I've got two exciting new ideas for this year (one of which should've already been out, but for technical problems). After that, assuming I don't enjoy an obnoxious degree of success, I'm going to have to change the way I do things.
Serious question...I know with youtubers that most of the big ones become big by being part of a network partner / management ie I guess kind of like a new style "agent" which promote / cross promote channels , SEO optimisation, etc etc etc .
With self publishing authors is there anything like that to help you get your name out there?
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
There are probably 100,000 pro or semi-pro writers in the UK. Probably 1000 of them make a good living, i.e. over £50,000 a year?
Probably 100, at most, make £250,000 a year or more: so just 1 in 1000 writers makes very serious dosh.
Probably 10 make a million a year, or more. And are just stupidly rich.
So other than JK and yourself, who are the other 8 ;-)
Probably Robert Harris, Neil Gaiman, the Tolkien Estate, among others mentioned.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
There are probably 100,000 pro or semi-pro writers in the UK. Probably 1000 of them make a good living, i.e. over £50,000 a year?
Probably 100, at most, make £250,000 a year or more: so just 1 in 1000 writers makes very serious dosh.
Probably 10 make a million a year, or more. And are just stupidly rich.
So other than JK and yourself, who are the other 8 ;-)
I wish. In a good year I'm in that top 100, just about. Certainly not in that top 10.
Rowling is one. I suspect JoJo Moyes is another. Paula Hawkins these last two years. E L James, still.
Mostly women.
Hold on a minute, that means I make about the same as you. But your lifestyle seems infinitely more flash than mine!
So to summarise, if your kids want to do something creative, tell them to get a proper job.
The words I dread hearing from my daughters are "I'm going to be an author". Both of them have seen me be successful (also my own Dad) so it's kinda natural for them to think Ooh, that looks fun, I'll do that. I'd then have to tell them that I have just been extremely lucky (and much of it is just pure dumb luck) and 99.9% of writers don't make loads of cash, or go on lovely free hols, etc
Happily, the eldest now wants to be a vet, and the youngest is just into having fun, at the mo.
It could be worse, I have a friend whose daughter once said "I want to be a poet". He's a poet. But as she's now seen how pitiful, indeed non-existent his poetic income is, she's studying maths and physics at Manchester Uni. A narrow escape.
Philip Larkin said his heart always sank when a student told him they wanted to be poet. He'd try to persuade them to do something more lucrative like being a lawyer or train driver.
In two hours. I think that may be a personal best, possibly even a world record?
I am very certain people will have written more in that time. Of a story? Still probably. Of comparable quality? In sufficient facts to determine the matter.
What’s a reasonable length for a book to be considered a novel rather than a novella. And what’s a saleable length for either. I ask because I’ve written something .... not for the same markets as Mr T or Mr D ..... and I’m terying to decide whether to add more to it. I’ve got a nice beginning and a satisfactory end. Currently its about 32,000 words.
The perfect book with respect to length is Madame Bovary, which is about 115,000. But it depends on the content and the story. Lord of the Rings fans complain it is too short. And Dr Johnson said of Paradise Lost that all admire it but few wish it longer.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
There are probably 100,000 pro or semi-pro writers in the UK. Probably 1000 of them make a good living, i.e. over £50,000 a year?
Probably 100, at most, make £250,000 a year or more: so just 1 in 1000 writers makes very serious dosh.
Probably 10 make a million a year, or more. And are just stupidly rich.
So other than JK and yourself, who are the other 8 ;-)
Probably Robert Harris, Neil Gaiman, the Tolkien Estate, among others mentioned.
James Patterson at the top there, with a fairly impressive £71 million in one year.
He don't write his own novels though right? He is more the creative director.
So thats £71 mill in, but he has all sorts of costs of paying for all the people to actually do the hard yards etc. Still, I am sure he isn't short of a bob or two, but that seems like saying a business turnover was x, and equating that all to pure profit.
Mr. Urquhart, not entirely sure. There's a slight move to that on Chrons (a SFF forum, for both readers and writers and general chatter) but nothing rock solid. It's through there I found Kraxon magazine and a few small presses with which I've had short stories published as part of anthologies.
There's a positive, collaborative approach amongst writers. You will get the occasional dick who will review poorly his 'competitor's' books, but the fact is people buying a book similar to mine is the next best thing to buying mine. So, after my own sales the thing I want most is success for those writing similar things.
The Unbound thingummyjig Dr. Foxinsox mentioned might be such an example.
King Cole, np. Always happy to bang on about books etc.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
There are probably 100,000 pro or semi-pro writers in the UK. Probably 1000 of them make a good living, i.e. over £50,000 a year?
Probably 100, at most, make £250,000 a year or more: so just 1 in 1000 writers makes very serious dosh.
Probably 10 make a million a year, or more. And are just stupidly rich.
So other than JK and yourself, who are the other 8 ;-)
I wish. In a good year I'm in that top 100, just about. Certainly not in that top 10.
Rowling is one. I suspect JoJo Moyes is another. Paula Hawkins these last two years. E L James, still.
Mostly women.
Out of interest, how much do you make from lendings by UK libraries?
At most £2500 a year. But I screwed up last year: I forgot to register the paperback edition of Ice Twins, so I made zero from my most popular book by far, in its biggest year. Not my smartest move.
If I had included it, I might have made £4k? I think the maximum allowed is about £6.6k
Thanks. I was aware there was an amount, as the Good Lady Wifi got handy cheques for her novel (a supernatural thriller set in Venice). It did seem to be a bigger hit amongst library readers than the buying public!
Dr. Foxinsox, what's the advantage of that over self-publishing?
Unless you're selling loads, the numbers stack up better, usually, to self-publish because there's no agent/publisher taking a cut. At the top end, the traditional model still works best (see Mr. T).
Anyway, I've got two exciting new ideas for this year (one of which should've already been out, but for technical problems). After that, assuming I don't enjoy an obnoxious degree of success, I'm going to have to change the way I do things.
Serious question...I know with youtubers that most of the big ones become big by being part of a network partner / management ie I guess kind of like a new style "agent" which promote / cross promote channels , SEO optimisation, etc etc etc .
With self publishing authors is there anything like that to help you get your name out there?
That is pretty much what Unbound do. Think of them as a start up house for writers who want to be noticed:
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
There are probably 100,000 pro or semi-pro writers in the UK. Probably 1000 of them make a good living, i.e. over £50,000 a year?
Probably 100, at most, make £250,000 a year or more: so just 1 in 1000 writers makes very serious dosh.
Probably 10 make a million a year, or more. And are just stupidly rich.
So other than JK and yourself, who are the other 8 ;-)
Probably Robert Harris, Neil Gaiman, the Tolkien Estate, among others mentioned.
James Patterson at the top there, with a fairly impressive £71 million in one year.
He don't write his own novels though right? He is more the creative director.
So thats £71 mill in, but he has all sorts of costs of paying for all the people to actually do the hard yards etc. Still, I am sure he isn't short of a bob or two, but that seems like saying a business turnover was x, and equating that all to pure profit.
I know how this works (I've had offers)
He hires writers, they will be on a fixed fee, probably $100,000 a book (and very very happy to get that)
I imagine he personally takes home 90% of that £71m - but then pays tax, agency commissions etc.
You would think they would be on a salary + % deal, based on sales.
I always been amazed at those that ghost write autobiographies for a living.
Not only do you have to somehow flash up often boring tales of somebodies life (over and over and over again), but the publishers often expect those 100k words in very short periods of time, often 2-3 months.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
There are probably 100,000 pro or semi-pro writers in the UK. Probably 1000 of them make a good living, i.e. over £50,000 a year?
Probably 100, at most, make £250,000 a year or more: so just 1 in 1000 writers makes very serious dosh.
Probably 10 make a million a year, or more. And are just stupidly rich.
So other than JK and yourself, who are the other 8 ;-)
Probably Robert Harris, Neil Gaiman, the Tolkien Estate, among others mentioned.
James Patterson at the top there, with a fairly impressive £71 million in one year.
He don't write his own novels though right? He is more the creative director.
So thats £71 mill in, but he has all sorts of costs of paying for all the people to actually do the hard yards etc. Still, I am sure he isn't short of a bob or two, but that seems like saying a business turnover was x, and equating that all to pure profit.
It's still a good living for writing complete crap. I wish I could figure out how to make a fortune by writing complete crap, like Harold Robbins, Sidney Sheldon, Dan Brown, and Jackie Collins.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
There are probably 100,000 pro or semi-pro writers in the UK. Probably 1000 of them make a good living, i.e. over £50,000 a year?
Probably 100, at most, make £250,000 a year or more: so just 1 in 1000 writers makes very serious dosh.
Probably 10 make a million a year, or more. And are just stupidly rich.
So other than JK and yourself, who are the other 8 ;-)
I wish. In a good year I'm in that top 100, just about. Certainly not in that top 10.
Rowling is one. I suspect JoJo Moyes is another. Paula Hawkins these last two years. E L James, still.
Mostly women.
Hold on a minute, that means I make about the same as you. But your lifestyle seems infinitely more flash than mine!
So to summarise, if your kids want to do something creative, tell them to get a proper job.
The words I dread hearing from my daughters are "I'm going to be an author". Both of them have seen me be successful (also my own Dad) so it's kinda natural for them to think Ooh, that looks fun, I'll do that. I'd then have to tell them that I have just been extremely lucky (and much of it is just pure dumb luck) and 99.9% of writers don't make loads of cash, or go on lovely free hols, etc
Happily, the eldest now wants to be a vet, and the youngest is just into having fun, at the mo.
It could be worse, I have a friend whose daughter once said "I want to be a poet". He's a poet. But as she's now seen how pitiful, indeed non-existent his poetic income is, she's studying maths and physics at Manchester Uni. A narrow escape.
Philip Larkin said his heart always sank when a student told him they wanted to be poet. He'd try to persuade them to do something more lucrative like being a lawyer or train driver.
Or you could be like Wallace Stevens and hold down a boring lucrative job while simultaneously being a celebrated poet.
Dr. Foxinsox, thanks for the suggestion. At the moment, I don't have anything that fits, but might do later in the year. If/when I do, I'll give it a proper look then.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
There are probably 100,000 pro or semi-pro writers in the UK. Probably 1000 of them make a good living, i.e. over £50,000 a year?
Probably 100, at most, make £250,000 a year or more: so just 1 in 1000 writers makes very serious dosh.
Probably 10 make a million a year, or more. And are just stupidly rich.
So other than JK and yourself, who are the other 8 ;-)
Probably Robert Harris, Neil Gaiman, the Tolkien Estate, among others mentioned.
James Patterson at the top there, with a fairly impressive £71 million in one year.
He don't write his own novels though right? He is more the creative director.
So thats £71 mill in, but he has all sorts of costs of paying for all the people to actually do the hard yards etc. Still, I am sure he isn't short of a bob or two, but that seems like saying a business turnover was x, and equating that all to pure profit.
I know how this works (I've had offers)
He hires writers, they will be on a fixed fee, probably $100,000 a book (and very very happy to get that)
I imagine he personally takes home 90% of that £71m - but then pays tax, agency commissions etc.
You would think they would be on a salary + % deal, based on sales.
I always been amazed at those that ghost write autobiographies for a living.
Not only do you have to somehow flash up often boring tales of somebodies life (over and over and over again), but the publishers often expect those 100k words in very short periods of time, often 2-3 months.
I could write a biography. It's writing a good novel that takes real talent.
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
There are probably 100,000 pro or semi-pro writers in the UK. Probably 1000 of them make a good living, i.e. over £50,000 a year?
Probably 100, at most, make £250,000 a year or more: so just 1 in 1000 writers makes very serious dosh.
Probably 10 make a million a year, or more. And are just stupidly rich.
So other than JK and yourself, who are the other 8 ;-)
Mr. Quidder, JK Rowling got repeatedly turned down too.
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
There are probably 100,000 pro or semi-pro writers in the UK. Probably 1000 of them make a good living, i.e. over £50,000 a year?
Probably 100, at most, make £250,000 a year or more: so just 1 in 1000 writers makes very serious dosh.
Probably 10 make a million a year, or more. And are just stupidly rich.
So other than JK and yourself, who are the other 8 ;-)
Mr. Nunu, it's not dinner. Dinner is the meal around midday. It's tea.
Correct.
I switched what I call it when I moved south.
Still, after realising that Sean T is no better off than me financially but somehow manages to have a much more globetrotting and adventurous lifestyle, I am feeling more and more that despite my income I will never quite escape my roots.
If you don't agree with that, you're bloody uncivilised savages
I thought you were a northerner, Eagles?
Foe me, lunch is unequivocally midday and tea 4pm onwards. Dinner describes the size of a meal (large),and is not fixed to any time of the day. E.g. what do you call the big midday meal at Christmas?
Comments
You raise an interesting point though - when does a short story become a novella, and then become a novel? Purely as a reader I feel like a novella needs to be 50-100 pages at least, short but enough to sink your teeth into, and so 25000 to
Of course, he's a big beast. Most others in that situation would go along with it.
Sir Edric's Temple I described as a novella. It was around 37-40,000 words long (available alongside the similarly sized Sir Edric's Treasure in a single volume, incidentally).
These things do vary a bit. With fantasy (although the stereotype is overplayed) you can be a bit longer. Commercial thrillers (obviously Mr. T can offer better info here) can be a bit shorter.
She has told the Spanish! What do they know, eh? Experts! Just because they have a veto they think they can boss her about. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nicola-sturgeon-scottish-independence-referendum-eu-membership-back-of-queue-spain-a7638101.html
Merkel - Negatives: White, Western, Pro: woman, loves immigrants.
Ergodan - Negatives: Nutjob, dictatorial tendacies. Pro: Not white, Muslim, semi-anti-western
Publishers, especially large ones, are very conservative and risk averse. Self-publishing does remove them as strict gatekeepers, but it's very hard to make any money writing (don't let Mr. T fool you, there are thousands of struggling writers for every mid-list author, and hundreds of them for every A-list author).
https://unbound.com
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jan/15/earnings-soar-for-uks-bestselling-authors-as-wealth-gap-widens-in-books-industry
I think you have got the £11k wrong by £10k.
https://twitter.com/europeelects/status/843517663175360512
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/apr/20/earnings-authors-below-minimum-wage
Lots of struggling writers working x number of jobs.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/11550871/Just-one-in-ten-authors-can-earn-full-time-living-from-writing-report-finds.html
Actually, I am surprised that 11.5% of authors are full time - higher than I expected*!
(*) Proof that I am not Paul Krugman
My step-son's a very talented dancer and performer who is doing well, but so many of his very talented contemporaries never made it.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/oct/10/acting-career
Looks worse....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4328456/Haunting-images-dilapidated-Olympic-venues-Rio.html
The IOC are cut from the same cloth as FIFA
Unless you're selling loads, the numbers stack up better, usually, to self-publish because there's no agent/publisher taking a cut. At the top end, the traditional model still works best (see Mr. T).
Anyway, I've got two exciting new ideas for this year (one of which should've already been out, but for technical problems). After that, assuming I don't enjoy an obnoxious degree of success, I'm going to have to change the way I do things.
With self publishing authors is there anything like that to help you get your name out there?
How can you afford the constant hotels etc?
So thats £71 mill in, but he has all sorts of costs of paying for all the people to actually do the hard yards etc. Still, I am sure he isn't short of a bob or two, but that seems like saying a business turnover was x, and equating that all to pure profit.
There's a positive, collaborative approach amongst writers. You will get the occasional dick who will review poorly his 'competitor's' books, but the fact is people buying a book similar to mine is the next best thing to buying mine. So, after my own sales the thing I want most is success for those writing similar things.
The Unbound thingummyjig Dr. Foxinsox mentioned might be such an example.
King Cole, np. Always happy to bang on about books etc.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.co.uk/media/news/2015/january/unbound-partner-with-penguin-random-house/
I always been amazed at those that ghost write autobiographies for a living.
Not only do you have to somehow flash up often boring tales of somebodies life (over and over and over again), but the publishers often expect those 100k words in very short periods of time, often 2-3 months.
I am spending next weekend in camping in Lyme Regis....
Arg I can feel my first mid life crisis creeping on.
I mean I do like fishfinger sandwiches... but....
Still, after realising that Sean T is no better off than me financially but somehow manages to have a much more globetrotting and adventurous lifestyle, I am feeling more and more that despite my income I will never quite escape my roots.
Lunch 12pm to 2pm
Dinner 6pm to 8pm
Tea is what you drink.
If you don't agree with that, you're bloody uncivilised savages
I gather some southerners do consider dinner to be the early evening meal.
Mr. Odin, possibly, if he were inebriated and/or writing some sort of article.
Foe me, lunch is unequivocally midday and tea 4pm onwards. Dinner describes the size of a meal (large),and is not fixed to any time of the day. E.g. what do you call the big midday meal at Christmas?