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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betfair has Tories as 69% chance of taking Copeland – but reme

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    rkrkrk said:

    Three countries in EU have below 30% gross debt by GDP (2015 numbers). One was a bit of a surprise when I saw it.

    Anyone name them - without googling?

    Luxembourg, Austria and Sweden?
    One point. Lux - well done. 22% according to EuroStat. Not the lowest though
    The moral being to turn yourself into a tax haven and scam your co-religionists in the Euro?
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    HYUFD said:

    Even on current polling Copeland is neck and neck between the Tories and Labour, the Tories are not ahead. Copeland is also different from Richmond Park in that it is the Tories who are the insurgents challenging in a strong Leave area while in Richmond it was the LDs who were the insurgents in a strong Remain area

    We shouldn't ignore something that was probably overlooked at the time in Richmond: just how big a handicap it was to Zac not to have access to the Tory data bank of pledges.

    FWIW, I think Labour are too short in both seats. They should be clear favourites in Stoke and while Con should still be favourites in Copeland, I wouldn't be backing anywhere south of 4/5.
    Didn't Zac have the backing of his association? Weren't they the people who did the canvassing originally? Did they forget where his supporters lived?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/10/tory-mps-campaign-for-independent-candidate-zac-goldsmith-for-ri/
    “The reason the Conservative party nationally did not put a candidate in Richmond and Kingston is because every single councillor and the association as a whole let it by known by sending a message to the Prime Minister and the Conservative chairman that if there was a candidate they would still back me.”
    Isn’t a lot of the useful material data-protected?
    Not if it's in the memories of the Tory canvassers.
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    HYUFD said:

    Even on current polling Copeland is neck and neck between the Tories and Labour, the Tories are not ahead. Copeland is also different from Richmond Park in that it is the Tories who are the insurgents challenging in a strong Leave area while in Richmond it was the LDs who were the insurgents in a strong Remain area

    We shouldn't ignore something that was probably overlooked at the time in Richmond: just how big a handicap it was to Zac not to have access to the Tory data bank of pledges.

    FWIW, I think Labour are too short in both seats. They should be clear favourites in Stoke and while Con should still be favourites in Copeland, I wouldn't be backing anywhere south of 4/5.
    Doesn't that mean that, like me, you'd be gobbling up Labour a5 3.5 (= 3.375 net) with the BetfairEx. These appear ridiculously generous odds against an incumbent party.

    I agree with you as regards Stoke - backing Labour at 1.91 looks like the value bet of the year so far.

    DYOR in both instances.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,145

    HYUFD said:

    Even on current polling Copeland is neck and neck between the Tories and Labour, the Tories are not ahead. Copeland is also different from Richmond Park in that it is the Tories who are the insurgents challenging in a strong Leave area while in Richmond it was the LDs who were the insurgents in a strong Remain area

    We shouldn't ignore something that was probably overlooked at the time in Richmond: just how big a handicap it was to Zac not to have access to the Tory data bank of pledges.

    FWIW, I think Labour are too short in both seats. They should be clear favourites in Stoke and while Con should still be favourites in Copeland, I wouldn't be backing anywhere south of 4/5.
    Didn't Zac have the backing of his association? Weren't they the people who did the canvassing originally? Did they forget where his supporters lived?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/10/tory-mps-campaign-for-independent-candidate-zac-goldsmith-for-ri/
    “The reason the Conservative party nationally did not put a candidate in Richmond and Kingston is because every single councillor and the association as a whole let it by known by sending a message to the Prime Minister and the Conservative chairman that if there was a candidate they would still back me.”
    Isn’t a lot of the useful material data-protected?
    Not if it's in the memories of the Tory canvassers.
    See Mr Herdon’s post upthread.
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Estonia is lowest.
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    HYUFD said:

    Even on current polling Copeland is neck and neck between the Tories and Labour, the Tories are not ahead. Copeland is also different from Richmond Park in that it is the Tories who are the insurgents challenging in a strong Leave area while in Richmond it was the LDs who were the insurgents in a strong Remain area

    We shouldn't ignore something that was probably overlooked at the time in Richmond: just how big a handicap it was to Zac not to have access to the Tory data bank of pledges.

    FWIW, I think Labour are too short in both seats. They should be clear favourites in Stoke and while Con should still be favourites in Copeland, I wouldn't be backing anywhere south of 4/5.
    Didn't Zac have the backing of his association? Weren't they the people who did the canvassing originally? Did they forget where his supporters lived?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/10/tory-mps-campaign-for-independent-candidate-zac-goldsmith-for-ri/
    “The reason the Conservative party nationally did not put a candidate in Richmond and Kingston is because every single councillor and the association as a whole let it by known by sending a message to the Prime Minister and the Conservative chairman that if there was a candidate they would still back me.”
    I'm sure they knew in general terms where the areas of support were but in terms of access to the pledge lists (and contact details), they should have been blocked from accessing Con Party data. There are tens of thousands of voters in a constituency. I could only tell remember a tiny fraction of pledges - and those either because I know the personally as activists in one party or another, because they're poster sites or because the voter was memorably rude!
    Richmond Tories must have had a number of councillors and activists who would each know their patch. As you say they shouldn't have had access to the computerised records but having the Tory Association and Councillors on his side must have offset that somewhat.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited February 2017

    [As an aside, Easter is my favourite holiday. Utterly voluntary, if you buy eggs then you only need a few, they're cheap, and the day after the shops are full of cut-price chocolate. Huzzah!].

    Easter is a little less voluntary here. If you live in a city its very odd as all of a sudden the roads are relatively clear as half the population decamp back to the provinces to observe Easter with their extended family. Churches, always busy, are completely rammed, and in the city will be saying 8-10 masses each day. The devout (ie, about half the people you meet) will be attending lots of those, plus assorted other events. Out here in the sticks people will be up at 3am on Good Friday to walk the stations of the cross around their village. Events will continue for all of Holy Week and then there will be a massed return to the cities. To accommodate all this the summer holiday usually starts a week before Easter, this year it will be April 8th, and the kids will go back to school early to mid June.

    Not a chocolate egg in sight ;)
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,583

    [As an aside, Easter is my favourite holiday. Utterly voluntary, if you buy eggs then you only need a few, they're cheap, and the day after the shops are full of cut-price chocolate. Huzzah!].

    Easter is a little less voluntary here. If you live in a city its very odd as all of a sudden the roads are relatively clear as half the population decamp back to the provinces to observe Easter with their extended family. Churches, always busy, are completely rammed, and in the city will be saying 8-10 masses each day. The devout (ie, about half the people you meet) will be attending lots of those, plus assorted other events. Out here in the sticks people will be up at 3am on Good Friday to walk the stations of the cross around their village. Events will continue for all of Holy Week and then there will be a massed return to the cities. To accommodate all this the summer holiday usually starts a week before Easter, this year it will be April 8th, and the kids will go back to school early to mid June.

    Not a chocolate egg in sight ;)
    I was in the Phillippines one Easter and saw the crucifixions. Pretty yukky and no, not a lot of confectionery around.
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    Pulpstar said:

    I'm taking no chances with Stoke. Although unlikely, both candidates and parties have significant weaknesses and repel in equal measure.

    I could see a weird result there.

    LibDem gain?
    Unlikely but not impossible. Certainly not 60/1.

    If I were Farron I'd be focusing on Stoke and playing the plague on both your houses card. Trouble is he will probably repel Leavers too much, and by design.
    I think the Lib Dems have a chance, here is the reasoning.

    Brinsworth & Catcliffe/Sunderland, both targeted by the Lib Dem ground game. Both quite leavey and not a million miles from Stoke in terms of social metrics I'm guessing.

    LD Adam Carter 2000 [66.0%; +50.4%]
    Labour 519 [17.1%;-26.2%]
    UKIP 389 [12.8%; -16.4%]
    Conservative 91 [3.0%; -8.8%]
    Green 30 [1.0%; +1.0%]
    32% turnout
    Majority 1481
    Votes: 3030 (9470 eligible votes)

    That Sunderland ward:

    Bryan George Foster - UKIP: 343
    Helmut Izaks - Green: 23
    Stephen Francis O’Brien - Lib Dem: 824 (45% of the vote)
    Gary Edward Waller - Labour: 458
    Gavin William Christopher Wilson - Con: 184

    Total votes cast: 1,832
    Turnout: 23.8% (7700 eligible votes)

    So of 17170 eligible votes, the Lib Dems got 2824.

    In Stoke there are 63000 eligible votes. 6000 could well be enough, given the splits. The Lib Dems might get 6000 votes - they are the only candidate fielding a non Brexit candidate

    Stoke-on-Trent

    Votes cast: 117,680 (65.7% turnout)
    Remain: 36,027

    Stoke on Trent Central on a 65.7% turnout gets ~ 41,400 eligible votes. The seat voted 35% to remain which is 14,490 votes.

    So the yellow peril need ~ 42% of the remain vote to come out 'just this once' and vote. It isn't likely, but Betfair's current 60-1 looks like good value to me.



    Good rationale. A very low turnout with Labour and UKIP in the high 20s, Tories in the high teens or low twenties, but the LDs in the low 30s seems most likely to me.
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    rkrkrk said:

    Essexit said:

    Three countries in EU have below 30% gross debt by GDP (2015 numbers). One was a bit of a surprise when I saw it.

    Anyone name them - without googling?

    Finland, Estonia, Slovenia?
    One point - well done. Estonia has the lowest debt at 10%.

    Finland, somewhat to my surprise, is at 63%. All but doubled since 2008. Nokia effect?
    I'd guess the others are in the east too? Slovenia and Latvia?
    No, as I say one was a surprise. Latvia is low though - 36%
    Malta?
    No.
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    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Patrick said:

    Tories a bit mispriced for sure - but it's frankly astonishing that two years in and with a massive amoiunt of noise around Brexit etc that the opposition aren't streets ahead. Labour would seem to have no hope of forming a government any time soon.

    No, they haven't. Not a sliver. The Corbynista had a fabulous dream. But it was only a dream.
    The question, as was mentioned in a post over the weekend, I believe, is at what point if ever the Momentumista loses faith with Jezza and realises that it too wants to put its "overthrow the Tories" mantra into practice.

    NPXMPX2 still some way off, according to his post.
    This is no longer up to the Corbynista. Corbyn is highly unlikely to be LOTO by 2020. He has had enough personally as far as I can see. The process has begun.
    What are the mechanics for that to happen?
    He resigns or offers to resign in exchange for the 38 signatures required to get X (fill in lefty names as they are rolled out and kite tested) on to the ballot.

    Or erstwhile union allies call for a contest, so killing off disloyalty card.

    It's when, not if.

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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited February 2017
    TOPPING said:

    [As an aside, Easter is my favourite holiday. Utterly voluntary, if you buy eggs then you only need a few, they're cheap, and the day after the shops are full of cut-price chocolate. Huzzah!].

    Easter is a little less voluntary here. If you live in a city its very odd as all of a sudden the roads are relatively clear as half the population decamp back to the provinces to observe Easter with their extended family. Churches, always busy, are completely rammed, and in the city will be saying 8-10 masses each day. The devout (ie, about half the people you meet) will be attending lots of those, plus assorted other events. Out here in the sticks people will be up at 3am on Good Friday to walk the stations of the cross around their village. Events will continue for all of Holy Week and then there will be a massed return to the cities. To accommodate all this the summer holiday usually starts a week before Easter, this year it will be April 8th, and the kids will go back to school early to mid June.

    Not a chocolate egg in sight ;)
    I was in the Phillippines one Easter and saw the crucifixions. Pretty yukky and no, not a lot of confectionery around.
    I have never seen that to be fair, it only happens in a very few places these days, because the church frowns very heavily on it and brands it, with some justification, as fanaticism. What is especially odd is it is often the same people being nailed up year after year. The government told them if they wanted to do it they had to have up to date tetanus shots and only use sterilized stainless steel nails!
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    TOPPING said:

    [As an aside, Easter is my favourite holiday. Utterly voluntary, if you buy eggs then you only need a few, they're cheap, and the day after the shops are full of cut-price chocolate. Huzzah!].

    Easter is a little less voluntary here. If you live in a city its very odd as all of a sudden the roads are relatively clear as half the population decamp back to the provinces to observe Easter with their extended family. Churches, always busy, are completely rammed, and in the city will be saying 8-10 masses each day. The devout (ie, about half the people you meet) will be attending lots of those, plus assorted other events. Out here in the sticks people will be up at 3am on Good Friday to walk the stations of the cross around their village. Events will continue for all of Holy Week and then there will be a massed return to the cities. To accommodate all this the summer holiday usually starts a week before Easter, this year it will be April 8th, and the kids will go back to school early to mid June.

    Not a chocolate egg in sight ;)
    I was in the Phillippines one Easter and saw the crucifixions. Pretty yukky and no, not a lot of confectionery around.
    I lived there for 4 years. They take their religion seriously. Easter is for them a religious thing. Whereas here it seems to be more about daffodils, chocolate, bunnies, eggs and B&Q.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,271

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Patrick said:

    Tories a bit mispriced for sure - but it's frankly astonishing that two years in and with a massive amoiunt of noise around Brexit etc that the opposition aren't streets ahead. Labour would seem to have no hope of forming a government any time soon.

    No, they haven't. Not a sliver. The Corbynista had a fabulous dream. But it was only a dream.
    The question, as was mentioned in a post over the weekend, I believe, is at what point if ever the Momentumista loses faith with Jezza and realises that it too wants to put its "overthrow the Tories" mantra into practice.

    NPXMPX2 still some way off, according to his post.
    This is no longer up to the Corbynista. Corbyn is highly unlikely to be LOTO by 2020. He has had enough personally as far as I can see. The process has begun.
    What are the mechanics for that to happen?
    He resigns or offers to resign in exchange for the 38 signatures required to get X (fill in lefty names as they are rolled out and kite tested) on to the ballot.

    Or erstwhile union allies call for a contest, so killing off disloyalty card.

    It's when, not if.

    The only thing that matters is the membership, until polling comes out showing they no longer back Corbyn or Corbynism he and his allies are safe
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,271

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Patrick said:

    Tories a bit mispriced for sure - but it's frankly astonishing that two years in and with a massive amoiunt of noise around Brexit etc that the opposition aren't streets ahead. Labour would seem to have no hope of forming a government any time soon.

    No, they haven't. Not a sliver. The Corbynista had a fabulous dream. But it was only a dream.
    The question, as was mentioned in a post over the weekend, I believe, is at what point if ever the Momentumista loses faith with Jezza and realises that it too wants to put its "overthrow the Tories" mantra into practice.

    NPXMPX2 still some way off, according to his post.
    This is no longer up to the Corbynista. Corbyn is highly unlikely to be LOTO by 2020. He has had enough personally as far as I can see. The process has begun.
    What are the mechanics for that to happen?
    He resigns or offers to resign in exchange for the 38 signatures required to get X (fill in lefty names as they are rolled out and kite tested) on to the ballot.

    Or erstwhile union allies call for a contest, so killing off disloyalty card.

    It's when, not if.

    The only thing that matters is the membership, until polling comes out showing they no longer back Corbyn or Corbynism he and his allies are safe especially given he was re elected by over 60% of them just 5 months ago
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,583

    TOPPING said:

    [As an aside, Easter is my favourite holiday. Utterly voluntary, if you buy eggs then you only need a few, they're cheap, and the day after the shops are full of cut-price chocolate. Huzzah!].

    Easter is a little less voluntary here. If you live in a city its very odd as all of a sudden the roads are relatively clear as half the population decamp back to the provinces to observe Easter with their extended family. Churches, always busy, are completely rammed, and in the city will be saying 8-10 masses each day. The devout (ie, about half the people you meet) will be attending lots of those, plus assorted other events. Out here in the sticks people will be up at 3am on Good Friday to walk the stations of the cross around their village. Events will continue for all of Holy Week and then there will be a massed return to the cities. To accommodate all this the summer holiday usually starts a week before Easter, this year it will be April 8th, and the kids will go back to school early to mid June.

    Not a chocolate egg in sight ;)
    I was in the Phillippines one Easter and saw the crucifixions. Pretty yukky and no, not a lot of confectionery around.
    I have never seen that to be fair, it only happens in a very few places these days, because the church frowns very heavily on it and brands it, with some justification, as fanaticism.
    Interesting - it was some years ago and we were on our way to Banaue, which was quite a drive from Manila but I've no idea where exactly we stopped to watch it.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    Mr. Patrick, he said one was surprising, hence going for a surprise.

    Mr. Borough, a little Danish prize does sound nice on Valentine's Day.

    Mr. Bob, Jesus doesn't rise from the dead at your convenience. Humbug to your heathen secularism.

    [As an aside, Easter is my favourite holiday. Utterly voluntary, if you buy eggs then you only need a few, they're cheap, and the day after the shops are full of cut-price chocolate. Huzzah!].

    I've just ordered A Kingdom Asunder.
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    The really big point is that far from being a tumultuous, cacophonic, unstable, firecracker of a polity, Brexit Britain is starting to feel like a relative island of calm, more at ease with itself than it has been for many years, led by a sort of 1950s Prime Minister, who is nearly 20 points ahead in the polls.

    The spotlight of worry has swivelled round elsewhere, to Greece, France and to the United States. If Brexit is a revolution, it is so far turning out to be a very British and incremental one, lacking in violence or upset. More tea, vicar?


    https://capx.co/theresa-mays-britain-is-starting-to-look-like-a-safe-haven/

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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380



    Good rationale. A very low turnout with Labour and UKIP in the high 20s, Tories in the high teens or low twenties, but the LDs in the low 30s seems most likely to me.

    I'm sceptical. I spent a whole day meeting voters there, as I reported the other day. I met nobody who appeared to be giving the LibDems any consideration whatever, or who mentioned having heard from them. It was seen entirely as a Lab-UKIP thing. I understand that the LibDems have a candidate who is targeting the Kashmiri community in one ward, which is essentially a spoiler strategy that will hurt Labour, but not a winning approach from Stoke as a whole, where it would be fair to say that concern over Kashmir or ethnic minority issues more generally is not obvious in the general electorate.

    The mistake, I think, is to overestimate the significance of Brexit in by-election voting. Neither supporters nor remainers who I talked to were making it a major factor. UKIP's strength reflects general disenchantment rather than a passion to pursue the Brexit theme.
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    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Patrick said:

    Tories a bit mispriced for sure - but it's frankly astonishing that two years in and with a massive amoiunt of noise around Brexit etc that the opposition aren't streets ahead. Labour would seem to have no hope of forming a government any time soon.

    No, they haven't. Not a sliver. The Corbynista had a fabulous dream. But it was only a dream.
    The question, as was mentioned in a post over the weekend, I believe, is at what point if ever the Momentumista loses faith with Jezza and realises that it too wants to put its "overthrow the Tories" mantra into practice.

    NPXMPX2 still some way off, according to his post.
    This is no longer up to the Corbynista. Corbyn is highly unlikely to be LOTO by 2020. He has had enough personally as far as I can see. The process has begun.
    What are the mechanics for that to happen?
    He resigns or offers to resign in exchange for the 38 signatures required to get X (fill in lefty names as they are rolled out and kite tested) on to the ballot.

    Or erstwhile union allies call for a contest, so killing off disloyalty card.

    It's when, not if.

    The only thing that matters is the membership, until polling comes out showing they no longer back Corbyn or Corbynism he and his allies are safe especially given he was re elected by over 60% of them just 5 months ago

    I can understand why you want this to be true and why you would have no idea about the depth of disenchantment there is now with Corbyn's leadership inside Labour.

  • Options
    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited February 2017
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    [As an aside, Easter is my favourite holiday. Utterly voluntary, if you buy eggs then you only need a few, they're cheap, and the day after the shops are full of cut-price chocolate. Huzzah!].

    Easter is a little less voluntary here. If you live in a city its very odd as all of a sudden the roads are relatively clear as half the population decamp back to the provinces to observe Easter with their extended family. Churches, always busy, are completely rammed, and in the city will be saying 8-10 masses each day. The devout (ie, about half the people you meet) will be attending lots of those, plus assorted other events. Out here in the sticks people will be up at 3am on Good Friday to walk the stations of the cross around their village. Events will continue for all of Holy Week and then there will be a massed return to the cities. To accommodate all this the summer holiday usually starts a week before Easter, this year it will be April 8th, and the kids will go back to school early to mid June.

    Not a chocolate egg in sight ;)
    I was in the Phillippines one Easter and saw the crucifixions. Pretty yukky and no, not a lot of confectionery around.
    I have never seen that to be fair, it only happens in a very few places these days, because the church frowns very heavily on it and brands it, with some justification, as fanaticism.
    Interesting - it was some years ago and we were on our way to Banaue, which was quite a drive from Manila but I've no idea where exactly we stopped to watch it.
    Probably San Fernando in Pampanga, they do the whole passion play there, with a bit more realism than is usually expected.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Pedro_Cutud_Lenten_Rites
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,583

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    [As an aside, Easter is my favourite holiday. Utterly voluntary, if you buy eggs then you only need a few, they're cheap, and the day after the shops are full of cut-price chocolate. Huzzah!].

    Easter is a little less voluntary here. If you live in a city its very odd as all of a sudden the roads are relatively clear as half the population decamp back to the provinces to observe Easter with their extended family. Churches, always busy, are completely rammed, and in the city will be saying 8-10 masses each day. The devout (ie, about half the people you meet) will be attending lots of those, plus assorted other events. Out here in the sticks people will be up at 3am on Good Friday to walk the stations of the cross around their village. Events will continue for all of Holy Week and then there will be a massed return to the cities. To accommodate all this the summer holiday usually starts a week before Easter, this year it will be April 8th, and the kids will go back to school early to mid June.

    Not a chocolate egg in sight ;)
    I was in the Phillippines one Easter and saw the crucifixions. Pretty yukky and no, not a lot of confectionery around.
    I have never seen that to be fair, it only happens in a very few places these days, because the church frowns very heavily on it and brands it, with some justification, as fanaticism.
    Interesting - it was some years ago and we were on our way to Banaue, which was quite a drive from Manila but I've no idea where exactly we stopped to watch it.
    Probably San Fernando in Pampanga, they do the whole passion play there, with a bit more realism that is usually expected.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Pedro_Cutud_Lenten_Rites
    Yes there was a lot of flagellating also!
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,271

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Patrick said:

    Tories a bit mispriced for sure - but it's frankly astonishing that two years in and with a massive amoiunt of noise around Brexit etc that the opposition aren't streets ahead. Labour would seem to have no hope of forming a government any time soon.

    No, they haven't. Not a sliver. The Corbynista had a fabulous dream. But it was only a dream.
    The question, as was mentioned in a post over the weekend, I believe, is at what point if ever the Momentumista loses faith with Jezza and realises that it too wants to put its "overthrow the Tories" mantra into practice.

    NPXMPX2 still some way off, according to his post.
    This is no longer up to the Corbynista. Corbyn is highly unlikely to be LOTO by 2020. He has had enough personally as far as I can see. The process has begun.
    What are the mechanics for that to happen?
    He resigns or offers to resign in exchange for the 38 signatures required to get X (fill in lefty names as they are rolled out and kite tested) on to the ballot.

    Or erstwhile union allies call for a contest, so killing off disloyalty card.

    It's when, not if.

    The only thing that matters is the membership, until polling comes out showing they no longer back Corbyn or Corbynism he and his allies are safe especially given he was re elected by over 60% of them just 5 months ago

    I can understand why you want this to be true and why you would have no idea about the depth of disenchantment there is now with Corbyn's leadership inside Labour.

    Just 5 months ago Corbyn won a landslide amongst Labour members against the Europhile Owen Smith despite Brexit and there has been no polling to show that position has changed so it is actually you who are acting more in hope than reality. Until polling shows the Labour membership want to move back to the centre again Corbynism is going nowhere
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    You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. And you're too cheap to use a pro fake tanner.

    https://twitter.com/wefail/status/831426332236079104

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    Good rationale. A very low turnout with Labour and UKIP in the high 20s, Tories in the high teens or low twenties, but the LDs in the low 30s seems most likely to me.

    I'm sceptical. I spent a whole day meeting voters there, as I reported the other day. I met nobody who appeared to be giving the LibDems any consideration whatever, or who mentioned having heard from them. It was seen entirely as a Lab-UKIP thing. I understand that the LibDems have a candidate who is targeting the Kashmiri community in one ward, which is essentially a spoiler strategy that will hurt Labour, but not a winning approach from Stoke as a whole, where it would be fair to say that concern over Kashmir or ethnic minority issues more generally is not obvious in the general electorate.

    The mistake, I think, is to overestimate the significance of Brexit in by-election voting. Neither supporters nor remainers who I talked to were making it a major factor. UKIP's strength reflects general disenchantment rather than a passion to pursue the Brexit theme.
    That also seemed to be the general thrust of Newsnight's vox pops last night. General disenchantment that Stoke had been left to rot after de-industrialisation.

    The most telling was the young woman with children who said both her working class parents had reasonable industrial jobs as she grew up and she had a decent enough upbringing with no endless worry and crisis about money. Her own children would not enjoy that security as she bought them up.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited February 2017

    You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. And you're too cheap to use a pro fake tanner.

    twitter.com/wefail/status/831426332236079104

    It worked for Gordon Brown - sometimes ;)
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    The really big point is that far from being a tumultuous, cacophonic, unstable, firecracker of a polity, Brexit Britain is starting to feel like a relative island of calm, more at ease with itself than it has been for many years, led by a sort of 1950s Prime Minister, who is nearly 20 points ahead in the polls.

    The spotlight of worry has swivelled round elsewhere, to Greece, France and to the United States. If Brexit is a revolution, it is so far turning out to be a very British and incremental one, lacking in violence or upset. More tea, vicar?


    https://capx.co/theresa-mays-britain-is-starting-to-look-like-a-safe-haven/

    I am always reminded that in 1848 - known to historians as the Year of Revolutions - whilst chaos reigned across Europe, the British Chartists had a large picnic on Kennington Common.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    One for @Sandpit and our other IT bods

    University couldn't figure out why network was slow... turns out it was being attacked by its own vending machines https://t.co/9UeqLq8dfH https://t.co/ZJijQ4SgKs
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    theakestheakes Posts: 845
    Nick Palmer. I am sceptical can you make an overall assessment. There are different responses in different areas. With respect perhaps you should stay for 10 days. Having said that I am happy to go with a Labout win at this stage. See where we are next Monday.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,033
    edited February 2017
    Mr. F, cheers, hope you enjoy it.

    Edited extra bit: originally planned to release the sequel around December this year, but if at all possible I'll bring it forward.
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    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Patrick said:

    Tories a bit mispriced for sure - but it's frankly astonishing that two years in and with a massive amoiunt of noise around Brexit etc that the opposition aren't streets ahead. Labour would seem to have no hope of forming a government any time soon.

    No, they haven't. Not a sliver. The Corbynista had a fabulous dream. But it was only a dream.
    The question, as was mentioned in a post over the weekend, I believe, is at what point if ever the Momentumista loses faith with Jezza and realises that it too wants to put its "overthrow the Tories" mantra into practice.

    NPXMPX2 still some way off, according to his post.
    This is no longer up to the Corbynista. Corbyn is highly unlikely to be LOTO by 2020. He has had enough personally as far as I can see. The process has begun.
    What are the mechanics for that to happen?
    He resigns or offers to resign in exchange for the 38 signatures required to get X (fill in lefty names as they are rolled out and kite tested) on to the ballot.

    Or erstwhile union allies call for a contest, so killing off disloyalty card.

    It's when, not if.

    The only thing that matters is the membership, until polling comes out showing they no longer back Corbyn or Corbynism he and his allies are safe especially given he was re elected by over 60% of them just 5 months ago

    I can understand why you want this to be true and why you would have no idea about the depth of disenchantment there is now with Corbyn's leadership inside Labour.

    Seems to me, on the outside, that the 3 line whip on A50 has been the death knell for Corbyn.
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    Miss Plato, the world becomes more Red Dwarfish every day.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,044
    @NickPalmer I have the Lib Dems and Labour pretty much dutched in Stoke by the way, I think both the 1.9 and ~ 60-1 are decent odds.
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    So, the three EU countries with under 30% debt:

    Estonia - 10%
    Lux - 22%
    Bulgaria - 26%

    The third was a surprise to me. How did that happen?
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    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Patrick said:

    Tories a bit mispriced for sure - but it's frankly astonishing that two years in and with a massive amoiunt of noise around Brexit etc that the opposition aren't streets ahead. Labour would seem to have no hope of forming a government any time soon.

    No, they haven't. Not a sliver. The Corbynista had a fabulous dream. But it was only a dream.
    The question, as was mentioned in a post over the weekend, I believe, is at what point if ever the Momentumista loses faith with Jezza and realises that it too wants to put its "overthrow the Tories" mantra into practice.

    NPXMPX2 still some way off, according to his post.
    This is no longer up to the Corbynista. Corbyn is highly unlikely to be LOTO by 2020. He has had enough personally as far as I can see. The process has begun.
    What are the mechanics for that to happen?
    He resigns or offers to resign in exchange for the 38 signatures required to get X (fill in lefty names as they are rolled out and kite tested) on to the ballot.

    Or erstwhile union allies call for a contest, so killing off disloyalty card.

    It's when, not if.

    The only thing that matters is the membership, until polling comes out showing they no longer back Corbyn or Corbynism he and his allies are safe especially given he was re elected by over 60% of them just 5 months ago

    I can understand why you want this to be true and why you would have no idea about the depth of disenchantment there is now with Corbyn's leadership inside Labour.

    Seems to me, on the outside, that the 3 line whip on A50 has been the death knell for Corbyn.

    Yep - the scales have fallen from many eyes. Also, his continuing friendliness with the rape-cult SWP has aggravated many. A lot on the left are beginning to understand he could kill them off completely. They are desperate to find an alternative, but the landscape is shifting. Corbyn no longer gets to anoint his successor.

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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,258
    PlatoSaid said:

    One for @Sandpit and our other IT bods

    University couldn't figure out why network was slow... turns out it was being attacked by its own vending machines https://t.co/9UeqLq8dfH https://t.co/ZJijQ4SgKs

    The Internet of Tat Things is going to lead to some really serious problems for society within a few years. Security's difficult enough without having so many essentially uncontrolled devices about.

    They're already being used for DDoS attacks. It's a problem that's only going to get worse.
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    The 'wee man trying to act big not wanting to let down his new best pal' shame of it.

    https://twitter.com/AliBunkallSKY/status/831432052587241473

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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Miss Plato, the world becomes more Red Dwarfish every day.

    The comments on the thread are hilarious - lots of Adams and Red Dwarf
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    Good rationale. A very low turnout with Labour and UKIP in the high 20s, Tories in the high teens or low twenties, but the LDs in the low 30s seems most likely to me.

    I'm sceptical. I spent a whole day meeting voters there, as I reported the other day. I met nobody who appeared to be giving the LibDems any consideration whatever, or who mentioned having heard from them. It was seen entirely as a Lab-UKIP thing. I understand that the LibDems have a candidate who is targeting the Kashmiri community in one ward, which is essentially a spoiler strategy that will hurt Labour, but not a winning approach from Stoke as a whole, where it would be fair to say that concern over Kashmir or ethnic minority issues more generally is not obvious in the general electorate.

    The mistake, I think, is to overestimate the significance of Brexit in by-election voting. Neither supporters nor remainers who I talked to were making it a major factor. UKIP's strength reflects general disenchantment rather than a passion to pursue the Brexit theme.
    I'm not saying it will happen. I'm mapping out the 5-10% scenario where it could conceivably happen.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,044

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Patrick said:

    Tories a bit mispriced for sure - but it's frankly astonishing that two years in and with a massive amoiunt of noise around Brexit etc that the opposition aren't streets ahead. Labour would seem to have no hope of forming a government any time soon.

    No, they haven't. Not a sliver. The Corbynista had a fabulous dream. But it was only a dream.
    The question, as was mentioned in a post over the weekend, I believe, is at what point if ever the Momentumista loses faith with Jezza and realises that it too wants to put its "overthrow the Tories" mantra into practice.

    NPXMPX2 still some way off, according to his post.
    This is no longer up to the Corbynista. Corbyn is highly unlikely to be LOTO by 2020. He has had enough personally as far as I can see. The process has begun.
    What are the mechanics for that to happen?
    He resigns or offers to resign in exchange for the 38 signatures required to get X (fill in lefty names as they are rolled out and kite tested) on to the ballot.

    Or erstwhile union allies call for a contest, so killing off disloyalty card.

    It's when, not if.

    The only thing that matters is the membership, until polling comes out showing they no longer back Corbyn or Corbynism he and his allies are safe especially given he was re elected by over 60% of them just 5 months ago

    I can understand why you want this to be true and why you would have no idea about the depth of disenchantment there is now with Corbyn's leadership inside Labour.

    Seems to me, on the outside, that the 3 line whip on A50 has been the death knell for Corbyn.

    Yep - the scales have fallen from many eyes. Also, his continuing friendliness with the rape-cult SWP has aggravated many. A lot on the left are beginning to understand he could kill them off completely. They are desperate to find an alternative, but the landscape is shifting. Corbyn no longer gets to anoint his successor.

    You're at this stage now, but in a year's time it is "Labour's has performed better than expected in parliamentary by-elections and the May locals (Just price up the Copeland/Stoke double), and changing the leader now will look like panic". Inertia and the want to retain a united party front carry him through to 2019, and probably 2020.
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    The 'wee man trying to act big not wanting to let down his new best pal' shame of it.

    https://twitter.com/AliBunkallSKY/status/831432052587241473

    At 1.98% we came pretty close - and of course our GDP has been bigger than many predicted.....
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,044
    @NickPalmer Hanley Park & Shelton looks like somewhere the Lib Dems can get a decent amount of votes out to me

    68% Remain 15° Left 17° International
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852

    The 'wee man trying to act big not wanting to let down his new best pal' shame of it.

    https://twitter.com/AliBunkallSKY/status/831432052587241473

    At 1.98% we came pretty close - and of course our GDP has been bigger than many predicted.....
    Anyone would think there was nothing else happening in the world if that sort of thing is considered news worthy... looks like a squirrel, smells like a squirrel...
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    So, the three EU countries with under 30% debt:

    Estonia - 10%
    Lux - 22%
    Bulgaria - 26%

    The third was a surprise to me. How did that happen?

    Bulgaria, although not a member of the ERM, pegs its currency to the Euro. This imposes severe fiscal discipline on the government, as they can no longer print their own money without threatening the peg.

    If the Eurozone were agile they'd agree an accelerated transition programme rather than the usual ERM then wait for 2 years model for Euro membership.

    Wake me up when it happens...
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    Is the problem for the Labour moderates that their longer term hopes require the left to crash and burn spectacularly? If they oust Corbyn before they lose a GE the Labour left will squawk like a pink monkey bird. The necessary order of events ought to be:
    1. Corbyn loses the GE big style
    2. Corbyn gets replaced by a non-muppet non-marxist
    3. Tories go stale or complacent or evil
    4. Labour return
    Losing the GE whilst having a non-lunatic at the helm would actually be counter-productive. The sane need the insane to lose so badly they can't revive.
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    On the rise & fall of Prime Ministers:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/14/theresa-may-up-to-the-job-prime-minister-how-to-tell

    On most counts at this very early stage of her leadership, May scores highly. She has had more experience than most incoming prime ministers after six years in the Home Office, although this is not a department that is testing in terms of economic or foreign policy. She has, for now, command of her party. But in terms of context she is more constrained than any of her modern predecessors, inheriting Brexit, the energy-sapping issue that dominates her government and will determine her fate.
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    Re Stoke - if I was a constituent I would despair at the choices.

    Labour - appalling candidate
    UKIP - yesterday's news and a chaotic party
    Lib Dems - extreme pro Europe party in a high leave area
    Conservatives - difficult to see a win in this staunch labour seat

    I think I would vote conservative out of loyalty and definitely not tactically for UKIP

    Re Copeland

    Think the NHS may have a negative effect on the conservatives.

    Also what effect will Toshiba's likely withdrawal from nuclear have

    I hope the conservatives win but too close to call though if they have got out their postal votes they may just get over the line
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    ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819

    Mr. Borough, would you prefer Pence to Trump?

    I think the Democrats will - they should definitely be trying to get him impeached, even if Pence has views that are actually further from the Democrats in many ways. Trump will be a trickier opponent to beat than Pence in 2020. Pence is a generic republican - they know how to beat those guys, Trump is sui generis and has so far run rings around all his opponents.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited February 2017

    Re Stoke - if I was a constituent I would despair at the choices.

    Labour - appalling candidate
    UKIP - yesterday's news and a chaotic party
    Lib Dems - extreme pro Europe party in a high leave area
    Conservatives - difficult to see a win in this staunch labour seat

    Maybe Labour are trying to rub it in: "Look how shite our candidate was, unphotogenic, potty mouthed, incontinent on Twitter, approves of slapping women - and we still won"

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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,953
    edited February 2017
    I'd have thought the Tories will be quite happy if Labour can cling on in both seats?

    #OperationSaveJezza
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    RoyalBlue said:

    So, the three EU countries with under 30% debt:

    Estonia - 10%
    Lux - 22%
    Bulgaria - 26%

    The third was a surprise to me. How did that happen?

    Bulgaria, although not a member of the ERM, pegs its currency to the Euro. This imposes severe fiscal discipline on the government, as they can no longer print their own money without threatening the peg.

    If the Eurozone were agile they'd agree an accelerated transition programme rather than the usual ERM then wait for 2 years model for Euro membership.

    Wake me up when it happens...
    That is why Mrs T and her fellow Conservatives wanted to join. Admittedly the sainted Margaret later changed her mind (when Alan Walters got her to abandon housewife economics) since when our joining has been seen as a lefty plot, despite it having been Jim Callaghan and Gordon Brown who kept us out.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852

    Mr. Borough, would you prefer Pence to Trump?

    I think the Democrats will - they should definitely be trying to get him impeached, even if Pence has views that are actually further from the Democrats in many ways. Trump will be a trickier opponent to beat than Pence in 2020. Pence is a generic republican - they know how to beat those guys, Trump is sui generis and has so far run rings around all his opponents.
    The Republican's know this and wont vote to impeach him while there is any other option so long as he continues to toss chunks of red meat in their direction from time to time. The SCOTUS nomination bought him a long line of credit with many Republicans.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,987
    edited February 2017
    Blimey, UKIP has picked up on a blog I wrote yesterday for one of our websites:
    https://twitter.com/suzanneevans1/status/831439000137302018
    One clarification - I did not welcome the Carswell EDM, I noted it.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,798

    Blimey, UKIP has picked up on a blog I wrote yesterday for one of our websites:
    https://twitter.com/suzanneevans1/status/831439000137302018
    One clarification - I did not welcome the Carswell EDM, I noted it.

    "expert"

    we're ignoring you :-)
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    PlatoSaid said:
    Except for the elites = left part -- it wasn't the lumpen proletariat moving jobs to low-wage countries and profits to low tax states.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,953
    edited February 2017

    The really big point is that far from being a tumultuous, cacophonic, unstable, firecracker of a polity, Brexit Britain is starting to feel like a relative island of calm, more at ease with itself than it has been for many years, led by a sort of 1950s Prime Minister, who is nearly 20 points ahead in the polls.

    The spotlight of worry has swivelled round elsewhere, to Greece, France and to the United States. If Brexit is a revolution, it is so far turning out to be a very British and incremental one, lacking in violence or upset. More tea, vicar?


    https://capx.co/theresa-mays-britain-is-starting-to-look-like-a-safe-haven/

    Well that was the point. It WAS a British revolution. We trudged to the polls on a Summers day and decided to change the course of the nation for the next century. And in so doing we changed the government too.

    Afterwards the establishment and MSM had a collective meltdown (Faisal is still in a state of extreme heightened emotion) but the people just shrugged and went back to watching Coronation Street.

    Now we're on our way out of the EU with the reassuring presence of this generations Super Mac (Mrs May) at the helm and things are stable with the economy going far better than even the most excitable of Brexiteers could have expected.

    All typically British.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,096
    GIN1138 said:

    I'd have thought the Tories will be quite happy if Labour can cling on in both seats?

    #OperationSaveJezza

    It would be a shame if the Conservatives wasted Corbyn on by-elections and never faced him in a General Election. I am reminded of Kerry Packer's comment on Alan Bond after he made $750m off him selling then buying back a TV station in three years:"You only get one Alan Bond in your life and I've had mine."

    May must know she'll only get one Corbyn in her Prime Ministerial career and she has maximise the benefit from his utter, utter incompetence.
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    Blimey, UKIP has picked up on a blog I wrote yesterday for one of our websites:
    https://twitter.com/suzanneevans1/status/831439000137302018
    One clarification - I did not welcome the Carswell EDM, I noted it.

    If* they were going to play fast and loose with the alt facts, the least they could do is give you a doctorate.


    *If - lol.
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    Good rationale. A very low turnout with Labour and UKIP in the high 20s, Tories in the high teens or low twenties, but the LDs in the low 30s seems most likely to me.

    I'm sceptical. I spent a whole day meeting voters there, as I reported the other day. I met nobody who appeared to be giving the LibDems any consideration whatever, or who mentioned having heard from them. It was seen entirely as a Lab-UKIP thing. I understand that the LibDems have a candidate who is targeting the Kashmiri community in one ward, which is essentially a spoiler strategy that will hurt Labour, but not a winning approach from Stoke as a whole, where it would be fair to say that concern over Kashmir or ethnic minority issues more generally is not obvious in the general electorate.

    The mistake, I think, is to overestimate the significance of Brexit in by-election voting. Neither supporters nor remainers who I talked to were making it a major factor. UKIP's strength reflects general disenchantment rather than a passion to pursue the Brexit theme.
    But then a Labour ex MP would want to talk up the most easily beatable candidate. I've no idea who will win, but if one party can become seen as the main opponent to Labour they may be in trouble, if the split is fairly even between UKIP, LDs and Tories they'll be fine.
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    Those YouGov favourability ratings - by region:

    Net - May / Corbyn:

    London: -3 / -37
    RoS: +22 / -44
    Mid/Wal: +7 / -40
    North: - / -35
    Scot: -28 / -36

    Conservatives / Labour

    London: -25 / -25
    RoS: +6 / -37
    Mid/Wal: -10 / -33
    North: -17 / -19
    Scot: -43 / -40

    No surprise that May is more popular than her party, or Corbyn is less popular than his (except Scotland).

    What does surprise me is that outside London the Labour brand is being damaged and is much less popular than Conservatives in the Midlands and even marginally in the North....
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    It's amazing - and telling - just how terrified the PB Tories are of Labour changing its leader. Proves the old theory that Mother Theresa's support is a mile wide, and an inch deep.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited February 2017
    I'd usually not post the Express - but this from the excellent Stephen Pollard is on the button

    http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/767024/labour-party-shami-chakrabarti-phil-shiner

    "Appalling as both are, these two characters exemplify in their own very different ways why the modern Left has collapsed as an electoral force.

    Which is why it is so revealing that Baroness Chakrabarti has chosen to leap to the defence of Mr Shiner. Speaking on Sunday she told us how upset she is at Mr Shiner’s downfall.

    He had, she said, done “very good work” before “losing his way”.

    How telling this is about her world view. She believes not only that Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour Party must be protected from the accusation that it harbours anti-Semites but also that Phil Shiner must be protected from the idea that he is a nasty piece of work who deserves everything that has come to him.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,145
    Patrick said:

    Is the problem for the Labour moderates that their longer term hopes require the left to crash and burn spectacularly? If they oust Corbyn before they lose a GE the Labour left will squawk like a pink monkey bird. The necessary order of events ought to be:
    1. Corbyn loses the GE big style
    2. Corbyn gets replaced by a non-muppet non-marxist
    3. Tories go stale or complacent or evil
    4. Labour return
    Losing the GE whilst having a non-lunatic at the helm would actually be counter-productive. The sane need the insane to lose so badly they can't revive.

    Tories GO evil ?????????????
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071



    Good rationale. A very low turnout with Labour and UKIP in the high 20s, Tories in the high teens or low twenties, but the LDs in the low 30s seems most likely to me.

    I'm sceptical. I spent a whole day meeting voters there, as I reported the other day. I met nobody who appeared to be giving the LibDems any consideration whatever, or who mentioned having heard from them. It was seen entirely as a Lab-UKIP thing. I understand that the LibDems have a candidate who is targeting the Kashmiri community in one ward, which is essentially a spoiler strategy that will hurt Labour, but not a winning approach from Stoke as a whole, where it would be fair to say that concern over Kashmir or ethnic minority issues more generally is not obvious in the general electorate.

    The mistake, I think, is to overestimate the significance of Brexit in by-election voting. Neither supporters nor remainers who I talked to were making it a major factor. UKIP's strength reflects general disenchantment rather than a passion to pursue the Brexit theme.
    But then a Labour ex MP would want to talk up the most easily beatable candidate. I've no idea who will win, but if one party can become seen as the main opponent to Labour they may be in trouble, if the split is fairly even between UKIP, LDs and Tories they'll be fine.
    You are right. Only newbies or the terminally daft on here pay any regard to NPxMP's canvassing "reports".

    He's always got an agenda.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,336
    edited February 2017

    The 'wee man trying to act big not wanting to let down his new best pal' shame of it.

    https://twitter.com/AliBunkallSKY/status/831432052587241473

    At 1.98% we came pretty close - and of course our GDP has been bigger than many predicted.....
    bloody fake news....it is also why hard gdp related targets are nonsense. I can see some sir Humphrey now going to buy a load of pot plants for the office just to make up the 0.02%
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    PlatoSaid said:

    I'd usually not post the Express - but this from the excellent Stephen Pollard is on the button

    http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/767024/labour-party-shami-chakrabarti-phil-shiner

    "Appalling as both are, these two characters exemplify in their own very different ways why the modern Left has collapsed as an electoral force.

    Which is why it is so revealing that Baroness Chakrabarti has chosen to leap to the defence of Mr Shiner. Speaking on Sunday she told us how upset she is at Mr Shiner’s downfall.

    He had, she said, done “very good work” before “losing his way”.

    How telling this is about her world view. She believes not only that Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour Party must be protected from the accusation that it harbours anti-Semites but also that Phil Shiner must be protected from the idea that he is a nasty piece of work who deserves everything that has come to him.

    It's.A.Labour.Thing

    "He was supporting Zionism before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews"
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    GIN1138 said:

    The really big point is that far from being a tumultuous, cacophonic, unstable, firecracker of a polity, Brexit Britain is starting to feel like a relative island of calm, more at ease with itself than it has been for many years, led by a sort of 1950s Prime Minister, who is nearly 20 points ahead in the polls.

    The spotlight of worry has swivelled round elsewhere, to Greece, France and to the United States. If Brexit is a revolution, it is so far turning out to be a very British and incremental one, lacking in violence or upset. More tea, vicar?


    https://capx.co/theresa-mays-britain-is-starting-to-look-like-a-safe-haven/

    Well that was the point. It WAS a British revolution. We trudged to the polls on a Summers day and decided to change the course of the nation for the next century. And in so doing we changed the government too.

    Afterwards the establishment and MSM had a collective meltdown (Faisal is still in a state of extreme heightened emotion) but the people just shrugged and went back to watching Coronation Street.

    Now we're on our way out of the EU with the reassuring presence of this generations Super Mac (Mrs May) at the helm and things are stable with the economy going far better than even the most excitable of Brexiteers could have expected.

    All typically British.
    You missed out the warm beer.
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    PlatoSaid said:

    I'd usually not post the Express - but this from the excellent Stephen Pollard is on the button

    http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/767024/labour-party-shami-chakrabarti-phil-shiner

    "Appalling as both are, these two characters exemplify in their own very different ways why the modern Left has collapsed as an electoral force.

    Which is why it is so revealing that Baroness Chakrabarti has chosen to leap to the defence of Mr Shiner. Speaking on Sunday she told us how upset she is at Mr Shiner’s downfall.

    He had, she said, done “very good work” before “losing his way”.

    How telling this is about her world view. She believes not only that Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour Party must be protected from the accusation that it harbours anti-Semites but also that Phil Shiner must be protected from the idea that he is a nasty piece of work who deserves everything that has come to him.

    On the button even if he thinks the Law Society is part of a left-wing, anti-Establishment conspiracy?
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Jobabob said:

    It's amazing - and telling - just how terrified the PB Tories are of Labour changing its leader. Proves the old theory that Mother Theresa's support is a mile wide, and an inch deep.

    I never believed that she deserved that Nobel Peace Prize.
    Calcutta wasn't as bad as she made out.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Stoke Opening Prices w Bookies/Current Prices on Betfair

    Labour 1.3/2.00
    UKIP 5.5/2.08
    LD 51/60
    Con 8.0/60
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    Those YouGov favourability ratings - by region:

    Net - May / Corbyn:

    London: -3 / -37
    RoS: +22 / -44
    Mid/Wal: +7 / -40
    North: - / -35
    Scot: -28 / -36

    Conservatives / Labour

    London: -25 / -25
    RoS: +6 / -37
    Mid/Wal: -10 / -33
    North: -17 / -19
    Scot: -43 / -40

    No surprise that May is more popular than her party, or Corbyn is less popular than his (except Scotland).

    What does surprise me is that outside London the Labour brand is being damaged and is much less popular than Conservatives in the Midlands and even marginally in the North....

    The Midlands will be horrible for Labour at the next GE. Miliband and Corbyn could have been designed to do the maximum damage to the party in this part of the world.

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    Saint Valentine's Day Horror ;

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/581540/nicola-sturgeon-is-celebrities-valentines-day-sweetheart-as-she-wins-army-of-showbiz-fans/


    According to bearded clown Frankie Boyle the British can't handle a female leader.
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    GIN1138 said:

    The really big point is that far from being a tumultuous, cacophonic, unstable, firecracker of a polity, Brexit Britain is starting to feel like a relative island of calm, more at ease with itself than it has been for many years, led by a sort of 1950s Prime Minister, who is nearly 20 points ahead in the polls.

    The spotlight of worry has swivelled round elsewhere, to Greece, France and to the United States. If Brexit is a revolution, it is so far turning out to be a very British and incremental one, lacking in violence or upset. More tea, vicar?


    https://capx.co/theresa-mays-britain-is-starting-to-look-like-a-safe-haven/

    Well that was the point. It WAS a British revolution. We trudged to the polls on a Summers day and decided to change the course of the nation for the next century. And in so doing we changed the government too.

    Afterwards the establishment and MSM had a collective meltdown (Faisal is still in a state of extreme heightened emotion) but the people just shrugged and went back to watching Coronation Street.

    Now we're on our way out of the EU with the reassuring presence of this generations Super Mac (Mrs May) at the helm and things are stable with the economy going far better than even the most excitable of Brexiteers could have expected.

    All typically British.
    You missed out the warm beer.
    Not to mention spinsters cycling from evensong to the polling stations to TAKE BACK CONTROL.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited February 2017
    Snortingly funny

    "I can forgive many of the sins of the Trump-is-Hitler, Brexit-is-Beelzebub lobby. I mean, we all lose the plot occasionally. We’re all susceptible to freaking out.

    One day you’re a paragon of measured political chatter and the next you’re on Twitter at 3am screaming ‘FASCIST!’ at eggs and plotting to make Hampstead a republic so you don’t have to share citizenship with former miners and women called Chardonnay who don’t like the EU.

    Meltdowns happen. I get it. Let’s not be too hard on these people who’ve left the land of reason for the world of WTF, where Godwin’s Law is permanently suspended...

    But there’s one thing for which I’ll never forgive them: making me defend Piers Morgan. Anything but this. Alas, needs must... Yes, this is how thoroughly the plot has been lost by the EU-backing, Hillary-pining part of the chattering class: they’ve managed to make Piers Morgan look like the voice of reason. Heaven help us. Or them.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/trump-fearing-brexit-loathing-set-make-even-piers-morgan-look-reasonable/
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    Pulpstar said:

    @Andyjs @MyBurningEars Fpt:

    I think that guy is a binary options system scammer.

    Well the Sunday Times was careful to say he was not "implicated in any wrongdoing" but even the title of their piece "He wins, you lose in binary casino" ought to give the game away really.

    Just thought it was very very shoddy from the Mail. They'd already sussed that there was more to his "trading" than met the eye, and even he admitted much of his income came from "coaching" new marks. Quick scan of the media database (or google news - the exposé was only two months ago!) would have found the Sunday Times piece. A scroll down his Twitter feed would show he was a perennial show-off in between occasional plugs to join his "trading team". Five minutes on google would show how he works, if your common sense wasn't enough to deduce there must be a referral/affiliate scheme somewhere along the line - a young chap claiming 60k profit/month on the back of a student loan shouldn't sound credible. And sadly the Sunday Times piece shows just how dodgy some of what was being pushed was.

    Also some mention must go to Channel 4 for sticking him on their Rich Kids Go Shopping "documentary", letting him flaunt his lifestyle, push his social media profile, and sell his "follow me if you want to get rich like me" story. With no critical examination of his claims, just showing him "make a thousand pounds in fifteen minutes". Goodness knows how many thousands of pounds he made from the exposure. But then, we all know that C4 "reality documentaries" are not really "journalism".

    The Mail has given the guy free publicity before. Even for the same thing before - oh no, I've had a supercar crash! Fortunately I have LOTS OF MONEY from my trading system so it doesn't really matter! And I am big on social media so follow me on Twitter/Insta if you wanna get rich too! I even do coaching for the newbs!!

    That they were so desperate to uncritically run the provided pictures of smashed up supercars, plus some cringey "rich kids of Insta" stuff, without joining any of the dots together that were right there in front of them, was poor stuff.

    (The comments section BTL is also disappointing, occasionally more switched-on readers do point out "erm, can't you guys see what is going on here?" or even warn other readers "if you're tempted to follow this guy, google first, DO NOT GET INVOLVED WITH HIM" ... but no, it's the bland "well done you but don't flaunt your wealth if you don't want to get in trouble" or "wish I knew his secret" type of stuff.)
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    Labour effectively at 5/1 for Copeland (unless you think that they'll finish outside the top two, which really would be an earthquake)? I don't mind if I do:

    https://www.sportingindex.com/spread-betting/politics/british/group_b.9f8d2c71-7848-416e-9425-0d911d5fff70/copeland-by-electon-index
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    RoyalBlue said:

    So, the three EU countries with under 30% debt:

    Estonia - 10%
    Lux - 22%
    Bulgaria - 26%

    The third was a surprise to me. How did that happen?

    Bulgaria, although not a member of the ERM, pegs its currency to the Euro. This imposes severe fiscal discipline on the government, as they can no longer print their own money without threatening the peg.

    If the Eurozone were agile they'd agree an accelerated transition programme rather than the usual ERM then wait for 2 years model for Euro membership.

    Wake me up when it happens...
    Estonia is interesting in there with a flat rate tax system.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,336
    edited February 2017
    PlatoSaid said:

    Snortingly funny

    "I can forgive many of the sins of the Trump-is-Hitler, Brexit-is-Beelzebub lobby. I mean, we all lose the plot occasionally. We’re all susceptible to freaking out.

    One day you’re a paragon of measured political chatter and the next you’re on Twitter at 3am screaming ‘FASCIST!’ at eggs and plotting to make Hampstead a republic so you don’t have to share citizenship with former miners and women called Chardonnay who don’t like the EU.

    Meltdowns happen. I get it. Let’s not be too hard on these people who’ve left the land of reason for the world of WTF, where Godwin’s Law is permanently suspended...

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/trump-fearing-brexit-loathing-set-make-even-piers-morgan-look-reasonable/

    On bill Maher on Friday he tried to take the criminal position that trump is wrong but might not be the new Hitler and to say so doesn't help the argument against trump. to which he was shouted down and told repeatedly to f##k off and that Hitler worked up to killing the Jews, he didn't kill them on day one.
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    Saint Valentine's Day Horror ;

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/581540/nicola-sturgeon-is-celebrities-valentines-day-sweetheart-as-she-wins-army-of-showbiz-fans/


    According to bearded clown Frankie Boyle the British can't handle a female leader.

    According to the Sun? It is not at all clear that what they quote from Boyle justifies that summary.
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    This us oly the third time I have ever posted here over a period years of lurking. However reading NikP's post on Stoke has motivated me. It is pure fantasy. The libdems are aiming for the scenario that casino royale has eluded to. I believe it is about a 30% chance that their extremely heavy campaign and GOTV will give them the low 30% of the vote they need. I have them at 40 to 1which must be value.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Labour effectively at 5/1 for Copeland (unless you think that they'll finish outside the top two, which really would be an earthquake)? I don't mind if I do:

    https://www.sportingindex.com/spread-betting/politics/british/group_b.9f8d2c71-7848-416e-9425-0d911d5fff70/copeland-by-electon-index

    Lib Dems a small buy?
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    Start of post should have read" this is only"
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    isam said:

    Labour effectively at 5/1 for Copeland (unless you think that they'll finish outside the top two, which really would be an earthquake)? I don't mind if I do:

    https://www.sportingindex.com/spread-betting/politics/british/group_b.9f8d2c71-7848-416e-9425-0d911d5fff70/copeland-by-electon-index

    Lib Dems a small buy?
    I'm not a Lib Dem booster in either of these constituencies. They lost their deposits in both of these seats and while I'm sure they'll do better this time, if a yellow wave hits, it will hit me on the back of the head.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,953
    Jobabob said:

    It's amazing - and telling - just how terrified the PB Tories are of Labour changing its leader. Proves the old theory that Mother Theresa's support is a mile wide, and an inch deep.

    Well not really. Even if Labour does change leaders the damage done to the Labour brand is so great that it's hard to see how they win the next election.

    But a new leader could keep the situation roughly where it was in 2015 where-as a Jezza leadership would give the Tories a landslide in all probability.
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    The UK dipped slightly below this at 1.98 per cent, as its economy grew faster in 2016 than its defence spending.

    "Nonetheless, the UK remained the only European state in the world's top five defence spenders in 2016.

    "If all Nato European countries were in 2016 to have met this 2 per cent of GDP target, their defence spending would have needed to rise by over 40 per cent."


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/14/uk-dips-nato-target-2pc-national-defence-spending
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Labour effectively at 5/1 for Copeland (unless you think that they'll finish outside the top two, which really would be an earthquake)? I don't mind if I do:

    https://www.sportingindex.com/spread-betting/politics/british/group_b.9f8d2c71-7848-416e-9425-0d911d5fff70/copeland-by-electon-index

    Lib Dems a small buy?
    I'm not a Lib Dem booster in either of these constituencies. They lost their deposits in both of these seats and while I'm sure they'll do better this time, if a yellow wave hits, it will hit me on the back of the head.
    If you think they could be a 10% chance of nicking 2nd its probably worth a bet.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118

    This us oly the third time I have ever posted here over a period years of lurking. However reading NikP's post on Stoke has motivated me. It is pure fantasy. The libdems are aiming for the scenario that casino royale has eluded to. I believe it is about a 30% chance that their extremely heavy campaign and GOTV will give them the low 30% of the vote they need. I have them at 40 to 1which must be value.

    Who knows, but you are effectively saying the market (a weak one admittedly) is 28% wrong. So many people on here are saying the Lib Dems are going to almost win this, yet they are still 50/1, how has this price remained?
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    isam said:

    isam said:

    Labour effectively at 5/1 for Copeland (unless you think that they'll finish outside the top two, which really would be an earthquake)? I don't mind if I do:

    https://www.sportingindex.com/spread-betting/politics/british/group_b.9f8d2c71-7848-416e-9425-0d911d5fff70/copeland-by-electon-index

    Lib Dems a small buy?
    I'm not a Lib Dem booster in either of these constituencies. They lost their deposits in both of these seats and while I'm sure they'll do better this time, if a yellow wave hits, it will hit me on the back of the head.
    If you think they could be a 10% chance of nicking 2nd its probably worth a bet.
    I see the logic, but (famous last words) I don't see their chance of nicking second as a 10% chance in Copeland.
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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    Re Stoke - if I was a constituent I would despair at the choices.

    Labour - appalling candidate
    UKIP - yesterday's news and a chaotic party
    Lib Dems - extreme pro Europe party in a high leave area
    Conservatives - difficult to see a win in this staunch labour seat

    I think I would vote conservative out of loyalty and definitely not tactically for UKIP

    Re Copeland

    Think the NHS may have a negative effect on the conservatives.

    Also what effect will Toshiba's likely withdrawal from nuclear have

    I hope the conservatives win but too close to call though if they have got out their postal votes they may just get over the line

    Monster Raving Loony Party to come through on the rails?
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,798

    Start of post should have read" this is only"

    2 post in 2 minutes

    youre becoming a regular :-)
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    GeoffM said:

    Jobabob said:

    It's amazing - and telling - just how terrified the PB Tories are of Labour changing its leader. Proves the old theory that Mother Theresa's support is a mile wide, and an inch deep.

    I never believed that she deserved that Nobel Peace Prize.
    Calcutta wasn't as bad as she made out.
    Christopher Hitchens wasn't a big fan, his book on her was a trifle controversial ;)
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    midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112

    This us oly the third time I have ever posted here over a period years of lurking. However reading NikP's post on Stoke has motivated me. It is pure fantasy. The libdems are aiming for the scenario that casino royale has eluded to. I believe it is about a 30% chance that their extremely heavy campaign and GOTV will give them the low 30% of the vote they need. I have them at 40 to 1which must be value.

    Well if you make them a somewhere between 3 and 7/2 chance you really should be filling your boots at 50 on betfair.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,953

    The UK dipped slightly below this at 1.98 per cent, as its economy grew faster in 2016 than its defence spending.



    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/14/uk-dips-nato-target-2pc-national-defence-spending

    Which is a surprise given that we was supposed to have an immediate recession after voting to LEAVE according to you know who... ;)

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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited February 2017

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Labour effectively at 5/1 for Copeland (unless you think that they'll finish outside the top two, which really would be an earthquake)? I don't mind if I do:

    https://www.sportingindex.com/spread-betting/politics/british/group_b.9f8d2c71-7848-416e-9425-0d911d5fff70/copeland-by-electon-index

    Lib Dems a small buy?
    I'm not a Lib Dem booster in either of these constituencies. They lost their deposits in both of these seats and while I'm sure they'll do better this time, if a yellow wave hits, it will hit me on the back of the head.
    If you think they could be a 10% chance of nicking 2nd its probably worth a bet.
    I see the logic, but (famous last words) I don't see their chance of nicking second as a 10% chance in Copeland.
    Fair enough, no bet!

    In case anyone was wondering how to work out the prices on Spread betting 25/10 Indices, you take the first place % (betting to 100%) and multiply by .25, then do the same for 2nd place and multiply by 10

    So in Stoke, Labour are 50% chance to win on Betfair, that gives you 12.5points, and Sporting Index must think they have roughly 37.5% chance of coming second, which gives you 3.75 leading to their midpoint being 16.25 (15.5-17)

    Sorry if this is obvious!
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited February 2017
    As a general rule, having a supercar smash must be one of the more expensive ways to advertise one's product.

    Depending on how many questions from the insurance company you want to answer, I suppose.
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    The Richmond Park odds weren't necessarily wrong. They gave Zac about a two-thirds charnce of winning. If the odds were exactly right, then one in three times a bet on him should have lost, which is quite often. This was one of those one in three times.

    Of course, in political betting we don't get to rerun the same contest under exactly the same conditions again and again, so we can never say that any particular set of odds was right or wrong. Nonetheless, we shouldn't be at all surprised that an outcome to which the betting markets assign a one in three probability occurs. On the contrary, we should be surprised if such a thing rarely occurred.

    This means that Richmond doesn't tell us anything about the Copeland probability. We can only use our judgement, on limited information, as to whether the Tories have a higher or lower probability of winning than the 69% implied by the odds.

    FWIW, I'm on Labour.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,583
    Jobabob said:

    It's amazing - and telling - just how terrified the PB Tories are of Labour changing its leader. Proves the old theory that Mother Theresa's support is a mile wide, and an inch deep.

    It's not amazing at all that the supporters of one political party don't want the opposing political party, currently led by a donkey, to upskill.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    isam said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'd usually not post the Express - but this from the excellent Stephen Pollard is on the button

    http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/767024/labour-party-shami-chakrabarti-phil-shiner

    "Appalling as both are, these two characters exemplify in their own very different ways why the modern Left has collapsed as an electoral force.

    Which is why it is so revealing that Baroness Chakrabarti has chosen to leap to the defence of Mr Shiner. Speaking on Sunday she told us how upset she is at Mr Shiner’s downfall.

    He had, she said, done “very good work” before “losing his way”.

    How telling this is about her world view. She believes not only that Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour Party must be protected from the accusation that it harbours anti-Semites but also that Phil Shiner must be protected from the idea that he is a nasty piece of work who deserves everything that has come to him.

    It's.A.Labour.Thing

    "He was supporting Zionism before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews"
    Did you see Dominic Lawson in STimes? Well worth registration to two free articles for it - it covers a lot of ground

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six-days/2017-02-12/comment/a-reminder-for-remainers-the-uneducated-protect-us-from-brilliant-idiots-cqv08b6pp

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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,583

    RoyalBlue said:

    So, the three EU countries with under 30% debt:

    Estonia - 10%
    Lux - 22%
    Bulgaria - 26%

    The third was a surprise to me. How did that happen?

    Bulgaria, although not a member of the ERM, pegs its currency to the Euro. This imposes severe fiscal discipline on the government, as they can no longer print their own money without threatening the peg.

    If the Eurozone were agile they'd agree an accelerated transition programme rather than the usual ERM then wait for 2 years model for Euro membership.

    Wake me up when it happens...
    Estonia is interesting in there with a flat rate tax system.
    I am a big supporter of flat tax. Sadly, politically it is a non-starter (like legalising drugs).
This discussion has been closed.