I'm no more a strong or weak Leaver than I would be a strong or weak Labour Party supporter after a Labour GE victory (remember those?).
With both our Leave decision and a Lab govt I disagree with the direction we are pursuing, believe it will impoverish many, and that especially those who are least able to withstand the economic hit will be hit hardest. And it will all be done in the name of a fallacious ideal because in actual fact, aside from the impoverishment, nothing much will change.
@jessicaelgot: I understand there are at least two shadow cabinet members who are seriously considering defying Labour's three line whip on Article 50 bill
so, sack and withdraw the whip
Or be more sensible, allow people to express their personal views on the EU and to vote in accordance with them. Result when tried in the past: a free debate before the 1975 referendum (Castle, Benn and Shore vs. Callaghan and Healey with Wilson staying above the fray). Relative party unity afterwards.
'Three line whips' imply that MPs can't be allowed to think for themselves.
The EU as a trading bloc is a dead dog is a far too sweeping statement. as a trading bloc it is growing in terms of members and size - think of the achievements of the last 12 years - massive population growth (accession of Poland, Romania for example) and some cases of huge growth (Slovakia), to top it all a club that people want to join (Turkey). Sweeping generalisations about Asia (which part - Japan, India or Indonesia?) are you referring to - none of which are at all interested in free trade as we know it. To typify the EU as a dead dog is a gross simplification - it has its problems but a lack of expansion is not one of them
Yet the EU share of global trade is shrinking rapidly. Its share has shrunk by a fifth in just 20 years. And that is in spite of the population growth you mention.
So the act gives PM the right to invoke A50. Not sure whether it's important- but that does mean that she could decide to delay invoking if she felt she needed more time.
Also, if we ended up not leaving, is this a permanent power grab by the PM that would allow them to invoke Article 50 on a whim at any time in the future?
Technically, yes. Practically, it'd be difficult to explain why the PM shouldn't have the power to implement the decision of the people and parliament. And of course, if a PM did invoke A50 after some theoretical and currently-unplanned second referendum reversed the first, it's highly likely that the PM wouldn't last the week in office.
Almost all countries and trading blocs are protectionist - and will continue to be so. The Single Market is where we send over 40% of our exports. That may change over time, but it will not do so rapidly. And being a part of it means that all times - whatever happens elsewhere - we have full access to over 500 million potential customers. That is a good place from which to start and we will get nothing like it from any other trading arrangement we may negotiate. I accept that there are good reasons to leave the EU, but improving our trading potential is not one of them.
Yes it is. Sure we have good access to 440 million* potential customers but that provides a cap on our trading potential that we can bilaterally negotiate. Outside the confines of the EU there are 7 billion people in this world so why should we only have access to 7% of them?
The US single market is worth more than the entire rEU altogether. If we can get a deal with the EU AND a deal with America we will have more than doubled our potential customer base in a single stroke. That is before we do deals with anyone else.
* It is only 500 million if you include us. Regardless of an in or our hokey pokey we will always have access to ourselves.
He wants to destroy the EU. If he can get at Germany he is more likely to achieve this. It would, of course, be catastrophic for the UK economy were that to happen.
No, I don't think it's anything as complex or grand as that. I doubt he has a real opinion on the EU either way, apart from thinking it doesn't work very well, and the Merkel migrant thing was massively stupid (and he's right on both counts).
Remember he's a rampant, frothing narcissist. I reckon he's just insulted that the Germans have been so cool to him, even after the inauguration. Whereas the Brits have changed their tune.
That said, President Trump can turn personal grudges into geopolitical strategies, and he does, so the Germans can possibly expect hostile actions.
The Germans are certainly gearing up for American aggression, but the Single Market shields them somewhat. And by pulling out of Asia, Trump leaves the way open for the EU. This is his problem with the EU - as a trading bloc it has the heft to cause problems to his America First policies. Far, far better for him to have Europe as a collection of individual countries that the US can dictate to. That's why he is such a fan of Brexit, of course: isolated, the UK will have to take whatever trade deal the US tells us to, or we will get nothing at all.
The EU as a trading bloc is a dead dog. It is a very mature market where the chances of radically increasing trade are extremely limited. Asia is the big emerging market and Africa will follow suit eventually. the EU will be left far behind as a protectionist backwater.
Sorry but this reminds me of the whole "Texas trending Democrat" situation in the USA.
Well that is definitely the first time I have read a government Bill from start to finish!
I thought it would be to invoke article 50... But it's actually to give the PM the power to do so. Maybe that doesn't matter.
It's also written in such a way that if it turns out a50 is reversible... It doesn't say PM has the power to reverse it?
A very good point. Given the whole Supreme Court case, if the Bill is passed as written, a PM would have the power to invoke A50 but not to revoke notification, irrespective of the result of the Irish court case.
The US single market is worth more than the entire rEU altogether. If we can get a deal with the EU AND a deal with America we will have more than doubled our potential customer base in a single stroke.
Everyone is fretting over May meeting Trump - what be more useful is her meeting with senior GOP leaders today.....
Why? Either she risks being drawn into inter-GOP intrigue against Trump on behalf of the pro-NATO, anti-Russia wing, or she risks being asked to make commitments that she can't back up. There's not much upside for her either way.
A very good point. Given the whole Supreme Court case, if the Bill is passed as written, a PM would have the power to invoke A50 but not to revoke notification, irrespective of the result of the Irish court case.
As discussed yesterday, the Supreme Court case recognises the Government right to make deals, just not undo them
@BethRigby: NEW Tulip Siddiq tells me she'll resign from front bench if 3 line whip. MPs saying Clive Lewis/Cat Smith/Dawn Butler/Jo Stevens'll quit too
Theresa needs to be careful here. I've often felt that the moment that Maggie passed her noon was when she allowed the US to bomb Libya from British air bases. Regardless of the rights or wrongs, a powerful part of here magic was lost that day. If Theresa is too craven, then it will easy for her enemies to paint any trade deal with Trump as a humiliating capitulation. That in turn will demolish one of principal intellectual pillars of Brexit. The reputations of both Theresa and Brexit are on the line.
So the act gives PM the right to invoke A50. Not sure whether it's important- but that does mean that she could decide to delay invoking if she felt she needed more time.
Also, if we ended up not leaving, is this a permanent power grab by the PM that would allow them to invoke Article 50 on a whim at any time in the future?
I'd much rather a power grab by a PM than a power grab by your beloved Euro federalists.
BBC Archive It's #AustraliaDay! Lesser social accounts might resort to lazy stereotype, but not us. Here are some kangaroos, koalas and a platypus... https://t.co/bvTPG5H7ux
@BethRigby: NEW Tulip Siddiq tells me she'll resign from front bench if 3 line whip. MPs saying Clive Lewis/Cat Smith/Dawn Butler/Jo Stevens'll quit too
Funnily enough, I am actually in Paris for a week or so in March, where my French publishers are launching the new S K Tremayne, La Menace, and they want me to do publicity, signings etc. Le Doute (the Ice Twins) was a big hit over there.
i think they're putting me up in the George V or something ridiculous. I'll let you know if I get any perspective from my suite.
Don't go there. Go to the Plaza Athenee (or Le Meurice). Georges Cinq is pretentious and caters to Middle Eastern taste. Plaza has the most hookers per square foot of any hotel in the West
Almost all countries and trading blocs are protectionist - and will continue to be so. The Single Market is where we send over 40% of our exports. That may change over time, but it will not do so rapidly. And being a part of it means that all times - whatever happens elsewhere - we have full access to over 500 million potential customers. That is a good place from which to start and we will get nothing like it from any other trading arrangement we may negotiate. I accept that there are good reasons to leave the EU, but improving our trading potential is not one of them.
Yes it is. Sure we have good access to 440 million* potential customers but that provides a cap on our trading potential that we can bilaterally negotiate. Outside the confines of the EU there are 7 billion people in this world so why should we only have access to 7% of them?
The US single market is worth more than the entire rEU altogether. If we can get a deal with the EU AND a deal with America we will have more than doubled our potential customer base in a single stroke. That is before we do deals with anyone else.
* It is only 500 million if you include us. Regardless of an in or our hokey pokey we will always have access to ourselves.
We have trade access to every single country in the world now. We are not going to get single market access to the US. We are not going to get anything like the deal we currently get from the Single Market with anyone else anywhere.
Funnily enough, I am actually in Paris for a week or so in March, where my French publishers are launching the new S K Tremayne, La Menace, and they want me to do publicity, signings etc. Le Doute (the Ice Twins) was a big hit over there.
i think they're putting me up in the George V or something ridiculous. I'll let you know if I get any perspective from my suite.
Don't go there. Go to the Plaza Athenee (or Le Meurice). Georges Cinq is pretentious and caters to Middle Eastern taste. Plaza has the most hookers per square foot of any hotel in the West
I'm fairly sure there is (or was) a hotel in Toulouse that could give it a run for its money, which we stayed in during RWC2007. Arrived back after a match. One bar, three stools, three hookers. Walked on.
BBC Archive It's #AustraliaDay! Lesser social accounts might resort to lazy stereotype, but not us. Here are some kangaroos, koalas and a platypus... https://t.co/bvTPG5H7ux
Almost all countries and trading blocs are protectionist - and will continue to be so. The Single Market is where we send over 40% of our exports. That may change over time, but it will not do so rapidly. And being a part of it means that all times - whatever happens elsewhere - we have full access to over 500 million potential customers. That is a good place from which to start and we will get nothing like it from any other trading arrangement we may negotiate. I accept that there are good reasons to leave the EU, but improving our trading potential is not one of them.
Yet another economic illiterate who thinks that 7% of the world's population should be more important for our future trade prospects than the other 93%. Membership of the EU actively hinders trade with the rest of the world. Being outside the Single Market will not significantly change the amount of trade we do with them but will allow us to make our own trade deals with the rest of the world.
In 20 years the EU's share of global trade has dropped from 30% to 24% and it will continue to shrink.
I'm afraid the economic illiteracy is to believe that we will get anything close to resembling the Single Market in any deal that we negotiate with any country from here-on-in. I do think that is important to have a strong home market for goods and services, and to go from there. Quite why you don't is beyond me.
A very good point. Given the whole Supreme Court case, if the Bill is passed as written, a PM would have the power to invoke A50 but not to revoke notification, irrespective of the result of the Irish court case.
As discussed yesterday, the Supreme Court case recognises the Government right to make deals, just not undo them
Would not notifying of a revocation, without explicit authorisation, be a prerogative act against the wishes of parliament as expressed in legislation? Surely that's exactly what the case was about?
He wants to destroy the EU. If he can get at Germany he is more likely to achieve this. It would, of course, be catastrophic for the UK economy were that to happen.
No, I don't think it's anything as complex or grand as that. I doubt he has a real opinion on the EU either way, apart from thinking it doesn't work very well, and the Merkel migrant thing was massively stupid (and he's right on both counts).
Remember he's a rampant, frothing narcissist. I reckon he's just insulted that the Germans have been so cool to him, even after the inauguration. Whereas the Brits have changed their tune.
That said, President Trump can turn personal grudges into geopolitical strategies, and he does, so the Germans can possibly expect hostile actions.
Malloch was an adviser to the IEA wasn't he?
If so he probably has pretty strong views on the Greek bailout regardless of Trump
The US single market is worth more than the entire rEU altogether. If we can get a deal with the EU AND a deal with America we will have more than doubled our potential customer base in a single stroke.
Cos we sell nothing to the USA now.
Oh, wait...
More economic illiteracy from the Brexiteers
Cos we sell nothing to the EU post-Brexit.
Oh, wait...
More economic illiteracy from the Remoaners.
Seriously: Either trade deals are meaningless in which case no harm leaving the EU or trade deals are meaningful in which case better opportunities outside the EU. You can't have your cake and eat it.
Funnily enough, I am actually in Paris for a week or so in March, where my French publishers are launching the new S K Tremayne, La Menace, and they want me to do publicity, signings etc. Le Doute (the Ice Twins) was a big hit over there.
i think they're putting me up in the George V or something ridiculous. I'll let you know if I get any perspective from my suite.
Don't go there. Go to the Plaza Athenee (or Le Meurice). Georges Cinq is pretentious and caters to Middle Eastern taste. Plaza has the most hookers per square foot of any hotel in the West
I'm fairly sure there is (or was) a hotel in Toulouse that could give it a run for its money, which we stayed in during RWC2007. Arrived back after a match. One bar, three stools, three hookers. Walked on.
I once stayed in a hotel in Minsk which had its very own official strip bar and brothel on the third floor.
Funnily enough, I am actually in Paris for a week or so in March, where my French publishers are launching the new S K Tremayne, La Menace, and they want me to do publicity, signings etc. Le Doute (the Ice Twins) was a big hit over there.
i think they're putting me up in the George V or something ridiculous. I'll let you know if I get any perspective from my suite.
Don't go there. Go to the Plaza Athenee (or Le Meurice). Georges Cinq is pretentious and caters to Middle Eastern taste. Plaza has the most hookers per square foot of any hotel in the West
I'm fairly sure there is (or was) a hotel in Toulouse that could give it a run for its money, which we stayed in during RWC2007. Arrived back after a match. One bar, three stools, three hookers. Walked on.
I once stayed in a hotel in Minsk which had its very own official strip bar and brothel on the third floor.
There used to be a small brothel in Ampleforth, down on Mill Lane iirc. Can't think why .
It's a funny old world to be sure. Today we have before us, for our entertainment, the curious spectacle of Jeremy Corbyn being sensible over Article 50, whereas some of the nominally moderate and reasonable Labour MPs are threatening to vote against implementing the result of a referendum which they themselves voted for.
Seriously: Either trade deals are meaningless in which case no harm leaving the EU or trade deals are meaningful in which case better opportunities outside the EU.
As already noted, not all deals are equal.
We are throwing away the best deal we will ever have in the vain hope of picking up scraps from Trump's table.
Good deals are meaningful, crap deals are all we will have left.
Funnily enough, I am actually in Paris for a week or so in March, where my French publishers are launching the new S K Tremayne, La Menace, and they want me to do publicity, signings etc. Le Doute (the Ice Twins) was a big hit over there.
i think they're putting me up in the George V or something ridiculous. I'll let you know if I get any perspective from my suite.
Don't go there. Go to the Plaza Athenee (or Le Meurice). Georges Cinq is pretentious and caters to Middle Eastern taste. Plaza has the most hookers per square foot of any hotel in the West
I'm fairly sure there is (or was) a hotel in Toulouse that could give it a run for its money, which we stayed in during RWC2007. Arrived back after a match. One bar, three stools, three hookers. Walked on.
I once stayed in a hotel in Minsk which had its very own official strip bar and brothel on the third floor.
There used to be a small brothel in Ampleforth, down on Mill Lane iirc. Can't think why .
A very good point. Given the whole Supreme Court case, if the Bill is passed as written, a PM would have the power to invoke A50 but not to revoke notification, irrespective of the result of the Irish court case.
As discussed yesterday, the Supreme Court case recognises the Government right to make deals, just not undo them
Would not notifying of a revocation, without explicit authorisation, be a prerogative act against the wishes of parliament as expressed in legislation? Surely that's exactly what the case was about?
I guess it depends at what stage the other legislation is at. Revocation after the Repeal Bill had passed would require explicit authorisation, but before then I don't see that it would.
Seriously: Either trade deals are meaningless in which case no harm leaving the EU or trade deals are meaningful in which case better opportunities outside the EU.
As already noted, not all deals are equal.
We are throwing away the best deal we will ever have in the vain hope of picking up scraps from Trump's table.
Good deals are meaningful, crap deals are all we will have left.
We may end up being able to export more high-quality cheese to the US. Surely that is enough. Rejoice.
Funnily enough, I am actually in Paris for a week or so in March, where my French publishers are launching the new S K Tremayne, La Menace, and they want me to do publicity, signings etc. Le Doute (the Ice Twins) was a big hit over there.
i think they're putting me up in the George V or something ridiculous. I'll let you know if I get any perspective from my suite.
Don't go there. Go to the Plaza Athenee (or Le Meurice). Georges Cinq is pretentious and caters to Middle Eastern taste. Plaza has the most hookers per square foot of any hotel in the West
I'm fairly sure there is (or was) a hotel in Toulouse that could give it a run for its money, which we stayed in during RWC2007. Arrived back after a match. One bar, three stools, three hookers. Walked on.
I once stayed in a hotel in Minsk which had its very own official strip bar and brothel on the third floor.
There used to be a small brothel in Ampleforth, down on Mill Lane iirc. Can't think why .
Funnily enough, I am actually in Paris for a week or so in March, where my French publishers are launching the new S K Tremayne, La Menace, and they want me to do publicity, signings etc. Le Doute (the Ice Twins) was a big hit over there.
i think they're putting me up in the George V or something ridiculous. I'll let you know if I get any perspective from my suite.
Don't go there. Go to the Plaza Athenee (or Le Meurice). Georges Cinq is pretentious and caters to Middle Eastern taste. Plaza has the most hookers per square foot of any hotel in the West
I'm fairly sure there is (or was) a hotel in Toulouse that could give it a run for its money, which we stayed in during RWC2007. Arrived back after a match. One bar, three stools, three hookers. Walked on.
I once stayed in a hotel in Minsk which had its very own official strip bar and brothel on the third floor.
Funnily enough, I am actually in Paris for a week or so in March, where my French publishers are launching the new S K Tremayne, La Menace, and they want me to do publicity, signings etc. Le Doute (the Ice Twins) was a big hit over there.
i think they're putting me up in the George V or something ridiculous. I'll let you know if I get any perspective from my suite.
Don't go there. Go to the Plaza Athenee (or Le Meurice). Georges Cinq is pretentious and caters to Middle Eastern taste. Plaza has the most hookers per square foot of any hotel in the West
I'm fairly sure there is (or was) a hotel in Toulouse that could give it a run for its money, which we stayed in during RWC2007. Arrived back after a match. One bar, three stools, three hookers. Walked on.
I once stayed in a hotel in Minsk which had its very own official strip bar and brothel on the third floor.
I once went to a fascinating place in Casablanca that, over the course of several hours, went from being a restaurant to a venue for a band to a dance-hall to a brothel.
Funnily enough, I am actually in Paris for a week or so in March, where my French publishers are launching the new S K Tremayne, La Menace, and they want me to do publicity, signings etc. Le Doute (the Ice Twins) was a big hit over there.
i think they're putting me up in the George V or something ridiculous. I'll let you know if I get any perspective from my suite.
Don't go there. Go to the Plaza Athenee (or Le Meurice). Georges Cinq is pretentious and caters to Middle Eastern taste. Plaza has the most hookers per square foot of any hotel in the West
I'm fairly sure there is (or was) a hotel in Toulouse that could give it a run for its money, which we stayed in during RWC2007. Arrived back after a match. One bar, three stools, three hookers. Walked on.
I once stayed in a hotel in Minsk which had its very own official strip bar and brothel on the third floor.
There used to be a small brothel in Ampleforth, down on Mill Lane iirc. Can't think why .
Were the employees male or female?
All girls. I'm trying to think of a delicate way to express the reason, but good taste (and my vague hope of not alienating every last woman who posts here) dictates otherwise.
Seriously: Either trade deals are meaningless in which case no harm leaving the EU or trade deals are meaningful in which case better opportunities outside the EU.
As already noted, not all deals are equal.
We are throwing away the best deal we will ever have in the vain hope of picking up scraps from Trump's table.
Good deals are meaningful, crap deals are all we will have left.
We may end up being able to export more high-quality cheese to the US. Surely that is enough. Rejoice.
Not sure that one's going to fly now that Wisconsin is a key swing state.
Funnily enough, I am actually in Paris for a week or so in March, where my French publishers are launching the new S K Tremayne, La Menace, and they want me to do publicity, signings etc. Le Doute (the Ice Twins) was a big hit over there.
i think they're putting me up in the George V or something ridiculous. I'll let you know if I get any perspective from my suite.
Don't go there. Go to the Plaza Athenee (or Le Meurice). Georges Cinq is pretentious and caters to Middle Eastern taste. Plaza has the most hookers per square foot of any hotel in the West
I'm fairly sure there is (or was) a hotel in Toulouse that could give it a run for its money, which we stayed in during RWC2007. Arrived back after a match. One bar, three stools, three hookers. Walked on.
I once stayed in a hotel in Minsk which had its very own official strip bar and brothel on the third floor.
There used to be a small brothel in Ampleforth, down on Mill Lane iirc. Can't think why .
Were the employees male or female?
All girls. I'm trying to think of a delicate way to express the reason, but good taste (and my vague hope of not alienating every last woman who posts here) dictates otherwise.
Fulfilling Ampleforth's obligation to provide a rounded education to its pupils?
Funnily enough, I am actually in Paris for a week or so in March, where my French publishers are launching the new S K Tremayne, La Menace, and they want me to do publicity, signings etc. Le Doute (the Ice Twins) was a big hit over there.
i think they're putting me up in the George V or something ridiculous. I'll let you know if I get any perspective from my suite.
Don't go there. Go to the Plaza Athenee (or Le Meurice). Georges Cinq is pretentious and caters to Middle Eastern taste. Plaza has the most hookers per square foot of any hotel in the West
I'm fairly sure there is (or was) a hotel in Toulouse that could give it a run for its money, which we stayed in during RWC2007. Arrived back after a match. One bar, three stools, three hookers. Walked on.
I once stayed in a hotel in Minsk which had its very own official strip bar and brothel on the third floor.
The Izmailovo in Moscow (ex-Olympic village athletes' accomodation), has a strip club too. Also the third floor, Gamma block, IIRC. Didn't ask about other services.
@BBCPhilipSim: ScotGov pressing ahead to apply to Presiding Officer for Holyrood consent motion on Article50 bill. Say A50 clearly impacts on devolved govt
Seriously: Either trade deals are meaningless in which case no harm leaving the EU or trade deals are meaningful in which case better opportunities outside the EU.
As already noted, not all deals are equal.
We are throwing away the best deal we will ever have in the vain hope of picking up scraps from Trump's table.
Good deals are meaningful, crap deals are all we will have left.
Yes not all deals are equal. I suspect a deal with America won't entail Americans being able to unilaterally change our laws on everything from employment rights to standards despite how those we elect in Britain vote.
There was a discussion on here about Trident... Do we need a different system that is more independent of the US?
The level of military knowledge on here seems to a complete non-expert like me to be very high so interested to hear views.
(Assuming you accept the premise that Trump is not a friend of the UK)
The Galileo satellite navigation system is certainly looking like a good idea now.
Trident D5 uses laser ring gyro INS and stellar navigation. It is specifically designed to work in a GPS denied environment so Galileo is irrelevant. When I was in the RN assignment to a Trident boat was something to be avoided and, if possible, bitterly contested so keeping the boats adequately and appropriately crewed is a far bigger issue than any technical matters.
@BBCPhilipSim: ScotGov pressing ahead to apply to Presiding Officer for Holyrood consent motion on Article50 bill. Say A50 clearly impacts on devolved govt
They can say as they please, but the Supreme Court didn't support them.
Funnily enough, I am actually in Paris for a week or so in March, where my French publishers are launching the new S K Tremayne, La Menace, and they want me to do publicity, signings etc. Le Doute (the Ice Twins) was a big hit over there.
i think they're putting me up in the George V or something ridiculous. I'll let you know if I get any perspective from my suite.
Don't go there. Go to the Plaza Athenee (or Le Meurice). Georges Cinq is pretentious and caters to Middle Eastern taste. Plaza has the most hookers per square foot of any hotel in the West
I'm fairly sure there is (or was) a hotel in Toulouse that could give it a run for its money, which we stayed in during RWC2007. Arrived back after a match. One bar, three stools, three hookers. Walked on.
I once stayed in a hotel in Minsk which had its very own official strip bar and brothel on the third floor.
There used to be a small brothel in Ampleforth, down on Mill Lane iirc. Can't think why .
Were the employees male or female?
All girls. I'm trying to think of a delicate way to express the reason, but good taste (and my vague hope of not alienating every last woman who posts here) dictates otherwise.
Fulfilling Ampleforth's obligation to provide a rounded education to its pupils?
It's just kind of .... sad. Obviously clever people reduced to this gibberish.
The Remoaners must now be at Kubler Ross Grief stage 94: Run into the streets naked pouring jelly on your head while singing Joy Division's Atmosphere, then chop your own goolies off with a fishknife.
It's the kind of "joke" you'd expect from Sandi Toksvig.
@BBCPhilipSim: ScotGov pressing ahead to apply to Presiding Officer for Holyrood consent motion on Article50 bill. Say A50 clearly impacts on devolved govt
Article 50 has an impact on Suffolk County Council but I don't see it presuming that its consent is required.
It's just kind of .... sad. Obviously clever people reduced to this gibberish.
The Remoaners must now be at Kubler Ross Grief stage 94: Run into the streets naked pouring jelly on your head while singing Joy Division's Atmosphere, then chop your own goolies off with a fishknife.
He wants to destroy the EU. If he can get at Germany he is more likely to achieve this. It would, of course, be catastrophic for the UK economy were that to happen.
No, I don't think it's anything as complex or grand as that. I doubt he has a real opinion on the EU either way, apart from thinking it doesn't work very well, and the Merkel migrant thing was massively stupid (and he's right on both counts).
Remember he's a rampant, frothing narcissist. I reckon he's just insulted that the Germans have been so cool to him, even after the inauguration. Whereas the Brits have changed their tune.
That said, President Trump can turn personal grudges into geopolitical strategies, and he does, so the Germans can possibly expect hostile actions.
The Germans are certainly gearing up for American aggression, but the Single Market shields them somewhat. And by pulling out of Asia, Trump leaves the way open for the EU. This is his problem with the EU - as a trading bloc it has the heft to cause problems to his America First policies. Far, far better for him to have Europe as a collection of individual countries that the US can dictate to. That's why he is such a fan of Brexit, of course: isolated, the UK will have to take whatever trade deal the US tells us to, or we will get nothing at all.
The EU as a trading bloc is a dead dog. It is a very mature market where the chances of radically increasing trade are extremely limited. Asia is the big emerging market and Africa will follow suit eventually. the EU will be left far behind as a protectionist backwater.
Almost all countries and trading blocs are protectionist - and will continue to be so. The Single Market is where we send over 40% of our exports. That may change over time, but it will not do so rapidly. ....
Since the EU started the % of our exports to other EU countries has steadily fallen at a rate of circa 1 percentage point a year, dropping to a headline of 44% in 2015. It accelerated down with the Lisbon Treaty. There is also the Rotterdam effect of transhipment which inflates the EU share of our exports by at least 2 percentage points even according to the ONS. We will therefore soon be under 40% and on a trend line to a real 30% level, even if we did not have the referendum vote and Brexit.
Seriously: Either trade deals are meaningless in which case no harm leaving the EU or trade deals are meaningful in which case better opportunities outside the EU.
As already noted, not all deals are equal.
We are throwing away the best deal we will ever have in the vain hope of picking up scraps from Trump's table.
Good deals are meaningful, crap deals are all we will have left.
We may end up being able to export more high-quality cheese to the US. Surely that is enough. Rejoice.
They may not appreciate it; too strong a taste for Americans. Blandless rules there.
It's just kind of .... sad. Obviously clever people reduced to this gibberish.
The Remoaners must now be at Kubler Ross Grief stage 94: Run into the streets naked pouring jelly on your head while singing Joy Division's Atmosphere, then chop your own goolies off with a fishknife.
Since the EU started the % of our exports to other EU countries has steadily fallen at a rate of circa 1 percentage point a year, dropping to a headline of 44% in 2015.
I'm sure it's unrelated to population growth and the industrialisation of mainland Asia.
There was a discussion on here about Trident... Do we need a different system that is more independent of the US?
The level of military knowledge on here seems to a complete non-expert like me to be very high so interested to hear views.
(Assuming you accept the premise that Trump is not a friend of the UK)
The Galileo satellite navigation system is certainly looking like a good idea now.
Trident D5 uses laser ring gyro INS and stellar navigation. It is specifically designed to work in a GPS denied environment so Galileo is irrelevant. When I was in the RN assignment to a Trident boat was something to be avoided and, if possible, bitterly contested so keeping the boats adequately and appropriately crewed is a far bigger issue than any technical matters.
GPS orbits and configurations were specifically designed to make it difficult to degrade or destroy via standard ground based ASAT. I've long since lost track of any developments in space-based ASAT capability. Anyone know?
It's a funny old world to be sure. Today we have before us, for our entertainment, the curious spectacle of Jeremy Corbyn being sensible over Article 50, whereas some of the nominally moderate and reasonable Labour MPs are threatening to vote against implementing the result of a referendum which they themselves voted for.
You seem to have become quite the Leaver. Welcome to our Happy Home.
Seriously, it's good that you are reconciled (however reluctantly). Brexit is going to be tricky and tough. So the country needs the smarter Remainers to get the F over it, man up, and put their brains to better use.
Like a fair few who were Remainers before the vote Richard has proved himself a democrat. He doesn't like the result but he accepts it and now wants it to work as best it can despite his misgivings. Damian Green is another who has proved worthy of respect for this since the vote.
@BBCPhilipSim: ScotGov pressing ahead to apply to Presiding Officer for Holyrood consent motion on Article50 bill. Say A50 clearly impacts on devolved govt
They can say as they please, but the Supreme Court didn't support them.
That's not right. The Supreme Court said that it could not enforce the Sewel convention. It did not say that it was not in play.
Since the EU started the % of our exports to other EU countries has steadily fallen at a rate of circa 1 percentage point a year, dropping to a headline of 44% in 2015.
I'm sure it's unrelated to population growth and the industrialisation of mainland Asia. Population growth by continent
The EU share of our exports was steady at above 50% until around 2002 and that wave of integration, regulation etc etc. https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/
Almost all countries and trading blocs are protectionist - and will continue to be so. The Single Market is where we send over 40% of our exports. That may change over time, but it will not do so rapidly. And being a part of it means that all times - whatever happens elsewhere - we have full access to over 500 million potential customers. That is a good place from which to start and we will get nothing like it from any other trading arrangement we may negotiate. I accept that there are good reasons to leave the EU, but improving our trading potential is not one of them.
Yet another economic illiterate who thinks that 7% of the world's population should be more important for our future trade prospects than the other 93%. Membership of the EU actively hinders trade with the rest of the world. Being outside the Single Market will not significantly change the amount of trade we do with them but will allow us to make our own trade deals with the rest of the world.
In 20 years the EU's share of global trade has dropped from 30% to 24% and it will continue to shrink.
I'm afraid the economic illiteracy is to believe that we will get anything close to resembling the Single Market in any deal that we negotiate with any country from here-on-in. I do think that is important to have a strong home market for goods and services, and to go from there. Quite why you don't is beyond me.
The idea that we will suddenly stop trading with the EU because we have left is just plain dumb. What matters is to be able to build on that with the rest of the world which is aleady a far more important market for us. Something that is currently restricted by our membership of the EU.
Since the EU started the % of our exports to other EU countries has steadily fallen at a rate of circa 1 percentage point a year, dropping to a headline of 44% in 2015.
I'm sure it's unrelated to population growth and the industrialisation of mainland Asia. Population growth by continent
The EU share of our exports was steady at above 50% until around 2002 and that wave of integration, regulation etc etc. https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/
Coincidentally also around the time China joined the WTO.
There was a discussion on here about Trident... Do we need a different system that is more independent of the US?
The level of military knowledge on here seems to a complete non-expert like me to be very high so interested to hear views.
(Assuming you accept the premise that Trump is not a friend of the UK)
The Galileo satellite navigation system is certainly looking like a good idea now.
Trident D5 uses laser ring gyro INS and stellar navigation. It is specifically designed to work in a GPS denied environment so Galileo is irrelevant. When I was in the RN assignment to a Trident boat was something to be avoided and, if possible, bitterly contested so keeping the boats adequately and appropriately crewed is a far bigger issue than any technical matters.
I wasn't thinking of Trident in particular, but independence from the US in general. With GPS now an integral component of so many applications, it surely makes good sense to have a European alternative.
This will last for year after year until the next cyclical recession happens and then Brexit gets the blame from the dwindling band of Remain folk.
And the EU gets the blame from the Leavers.
In fairness, Robert, Max and Casino have all said that the next recession will be a Brexit-induced recession; I share that view. It's not all kittens and rainbows, despite what some of my Panglossian fellow travellers might think.
There was a discussion on here about Trident... Do we need a different system that is more independent of the US?
The level of military knowledge on here seems to a complete non-expert like me to be very high so interested to hear views.
(Assuming you accept the premise that Trump is not a friend of the UK)
The Galileo satellite navigation system is certainly looking like a good idea now.
Trident D5 uses laser ring gyro INS and stellar navigation. It is specifically designed to work in a GPS denied environment so Galileo is irrelevant. When I was in the RN assignment to a Trident boat was something to be avoided and, if possible, bitterly contested so keeping the boats adequately and appropriately crewed is a far bigger issue than any technical matters.
I wasn't thinking of Trident in particular, but independence from the US in general. With GPS now an integral component of so many applications, it surely makes good sense to have a European alternative.
It's a funny old world to be sure. Today we have before us, for our entertainment, the curious spectacle of Jeremy Corbyn being sensible over Article 50, whereas some of the nominally moderate and reasonable Labour MPs are threatening to vote against implementing the result of a referendum which they themselves voted for.
You seem to have become quite the Leaver. Welcome to our Happy Home.
Seriously, it's good that you are reconciled (however reluctantly). Brexit is going to be tricky and tough. So the country needs the smarter Remainers to get the F over it, man up, and put their brains to better use.
Like a fair few who were Remainers before the vote Richard has proved himself a democrat. He doesn't like the result but he accepts it and now wants it to work as best it can despite his misgivings. Damian Green is another who has proved worthy of respect for this since the vote.
The split in the REMAIN camp between Adults and the Violet-Elizabeth Bott's?
There was a discussion on here about Trident... Do we need a different system that is more independent of the US?
The level of military knowledge on here seems to a complete non-expert like me to be very high so interested to hear views.
(Assuming you accept the premise that Trump is not a friend of the UK)
The Galileo satellite navigation system is certainly looking like a good idea now.
Trident D5 uses laser ring gyro INS and stellar navigation. It is specifically designed to work in a GPS denied environment so Galileo is irrelevant. When I was in the RN assignment to a Trident boat was something to be avoided and, if possible, bitterly contested so keeping the boats adequately and appropriately crewed is a far bigger issue than any technical matters.
I wasn't thinking of Trident in particular, but independence from the US in general. With GPS now an integral component of so many applications, it surely makes good sense to have a European alternative.
Galileo is an EU alternative not European so the Brexitards have fucked that.
@jessicaelgot: I understand there are at least two shadow cabinet members who are seriously considering defying Labour's three line whip on Article 50 bill
so, sack and withdraw the whip
Presumably Larry and Palmerston can replace them; they both have more experience of Government.
There was a discussion on here about Trident... Do we need a different system that is more independent of the US?
The level of military knowledge on here seems to a complete non-expert like me to be very high so interested to hear views.
(Assuming you accept the premise that Trump is not a friend of the UK)
The Galileo satellite navigation system is certainly looking like a good idea now.
Trident D5 uses laser ring gyro INS and stellar navigation. It is specifically designed to work in a GPS denied environment so Galileo is irrelevant. When I was in the RN assignment to a Trident boat was something to be avoided and, if possible, bitterly contested so keeping the boats adequately and appropriately crewed is a far bigger issue than any technical matters.
I wasn't thinking of Trident in particular, but independence from the US in general. With GPS now an integral component of so many applications, it surely makes good sense to have a European alternative.
Galileo is an EU alternative not European so the Brexitards have fucked that.
If we aren't on the EU's side or the USA's side in a situation where such services would be denied to us, something will have gone very wrong!
Lab 2015GE voters are almost equally split on the question and 13% of *current* Labour voters, which potentially gives scope for further swing from Lab (13% of current Lab voters represents about 4% of the voting electorate).
"Organisers said: “The vast majority of our MPs support our membership of the European Union, but are being railroaded into a catastrophe by reckless and incompetent leadership."
There was a discussion on here about Trident... Do we need a different system that is more independent of the US?
The level of military knowledge on here seems to a complete non-expert like me to be very high so interested to hear views.
(Assuming you accept the premise that Trump is not a friend of the UK)
The Galileo satellite navigation system is certainly looking like a good idea now.
Trident D5 uses laser ring gyro INS and stellar navigation. It is specifically designed to work in a GPS denied environment so Galileo is irrelevant. When I was in the RN assignment to a Trident boat was something to be avoided and, if possible, bitterly contested so keeping the boats adequately and appropriately crewed is a far bigger issue than any technical matters.
I wasn't thinking of Trident in particular, but independence from the US in general. With GPS now an integral component of so many applications, it surely makes good sense to have a European alternative.
Galileo is an EU alternative not European so the Brexitards have fucked that.
Not sure "Brexitards" is gonna work. Doesn't have the immediate appeal and logic of "Remoaners".
Feels more forced, like "Lie-bour" and "Camoron", which happily died out. But good try.
The people who go crazy over "leftards" should be along soon to tell him off for that...
Brendan O'Neill doesn't think much of Obama's emotional therapy presidency.
"For those of us who cling to an old-fashioned view of politics as the affairs of state, as ‘the science of good sense applied to public affairs’, as 18th-century US congressman Fisher Ames described it, the past few weeks have been incredibly frustrating. Any attempt to analyse, seriously, the things that were done by the Obama administration — or, as some see it, the things that merely happened under Obama, their authorship unclear or obscured — meets with confusion or even hostility.
Obama, it has been made clear, is not to be judged by such earthly matters as industry or liberty or war and peace, but rather by how he made people feel; by what one author has described as ‘the profound shift in the American psyche’ he brought about. Obama’s impact is mental, not political; curative, not concrete. Even newspaper pieces on his legacy that include discussion of Obamacare and his decisions on the Middle East swiftly move back to the realm of character and emotion, to his grace and style and wisdom. His legacy is judged psychologically rather than politically.
There was a discussion on here about Trident... Do we need a different system that is more independent of the US?
The level of military knowledge on here seems to a complete non-expert like me to be very high so interested to hear views.
(Assuming you accept the premise that Trump is not a friend of the UK)
The Galileo satellite navigation system is certainly looking like a good idea now.
Trident D5 uses laser ring gyro INS and stellar navigation. It is specifically designed to work in a GPS denied environment so Galileo is irrelevant. When I was in the RN assignment to a Trident boat was something to be avoided and, if possible, bitterly contested so keeping the boats adequately and appropriately crewed is a far bigger issue than any technical matters.
I wasn't thinking of Trident in particular, but independence from the US in general. With GPS now an integral component of so many applications, it surely makes good sense to have a European alternative.
Galileo is an EU alternative not European so the Brexitards have fucked that.
But the Euroloons kept telling us that the EU IS Europe. That they are one and the same.
This will last for year after year until the next cyclical recession happens and then Brexit gets the blame from the dwindling band of Remain folk.
And the EU gets the blame from the Leavers.
In fairness, Robert, Max and Casino have all said that the next recession will be a Brexit-induced recession; I share that view. It's not all kittens and rainbows, despite what some of my Panglossian fellow travellers might think.
Personally I thought we'd be in recession already, and facing a property slump. I voted LEAVE with my eyes open, knowing that if we won, the first years would be hard, and I would take a whack on my main asset, my London flat. I voted for my DAUGHTER and for the COUNTRY, not for me. Remain would probably be better for me, financially.
I half expected a mortgage rate rise because the Bank of England endorsed that as going to happen. It would have hurt financially (>£350k in borrowings) but, I did not understand the economic logic that Carney & Osborne spouted, therefore I concluded that they were either fools or liars.
This will last for year after year until the next cyclical recession happens and then Brexit gets the blame from the dwindling band of Remain folk.
And the EU gets the blame from the Leavers.
In fairness, Robert, Max and Casino have all said that the next recession will be a Brexit-induced recession; I share that view. It's not all kittens and rainbows, despite what some of my Panglossian fellow travellers might think.
Personally I thought we'd be in recession already, and facing a property slump.
I voted LEAVE with my eyes open, knowing that if we won, the first years would be hard, and I would take a whack on my main asset, my London flat.
I voted for my DAUGHTER and for the COUNTRY, not for me. Remain would probably be better for me, financially.
OK you voted emotionally for your daughter and country - that doesn't make you noble or right. I voted the other way for the same reasons, my 17 year old daughter would really have liked to vote for herself and for Remain.
Comments
With both our Leave decision and a Lab govt I disagree with the direction we are pursuing, believe it will impoverish many, and that especially those who are least able to withstand the economic hit will be hit hardest. And it will all be done in the name of a fallacious ideal because in actual fact, aside from the impoverishment, nothing much will change.
'Three line whips' imply that MPs can't be allowed to think for themselves.
The US single market is worth more than the entire rEU altogether. If we can get a deal with the EU AND a deal with America we will have more than doubled our potential customer base in a single stroke. That is before we do deals with anyone else.
* It is only 500 million if you include us. Regardless of an in or our hokey pokey we will always have access to ourselves.
Oh, wait...
More economic illiteracy from the Brexiteers
USA $16.7 trillion
EU (excluding UK) $14.1 trillion
Why should we turn our nose up at the bigger prize? Before anyone says PPP trade happens with real money not PPP.
1 Capacity of women to be members of Parliament.
A woman shall not be disqualified by sex or marriage for being elected to or sitting or voting as a Member of the Commons House of Parliament.
BBC Archive
It's #AustraliaDay! Lesser social accounts might resort to lazy stereotype, but not us. Here are some kangaroos, koalas and a platypus... https://t.co/bvTPG5H7ux
If so he probably has pretty strong views on the Greek bailout regardless of Trump
Oh, wait...
More economic illiteracy from the Remoaners.
Seriously: Either trade deals are meaningless in which case no harm leaving the EU or trade deals are meaningful in which case better opportunities outside the EU. You can't have your cake and eat it.
Kaboom!!!
We are throwing away the best deal we will ever have in the vain hope of picking up scraps from Trump's table.
Good deals are meaningful, crap deals are all we will have left.
It seemed to be a very successful business model.
Population growth by continent
https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-38664225
Lab 2015GE voters are almost equally split on the question and 13% of *current* Labour voters, which potentially gives scope for further swing from Lab (13% of current Lab voters represents about 4% of the voting electorate).
Maybe the public should have been consulted?
https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/824612860936552449
Brendan O'Neill doesn't think much of Obama's emotional therapy presidency.
"For those of us who cling to an old-fashioned view of politics as the affairs of state, as ‘the science of good sense applied to public affairs’, as 18th-century US congressman Fisher Ames described it, the past few weeks have been incredibly frustrating. Any attempt to analyse, seriously, the things that were done by the Obama administration — or, as some see it, the things that merely happened under Obama, their authorship unclear or obscured — meets with confusion or even hostility.
Obama, it has been made clear, is not to be judged by such earthly matters as industry or liberty or war and peace, but rather by how he made people feel; by what one author has described as ‘the profound shift in the American psyche’ he brought about. Obama’s impact is mental, not political; curative, not concrete. Even newspaper pieces on his legacy that include discussion of Obamacare and his decisions on the Middle East swiftly move back to the realm of character and emotion, to his grace and style and wisdom. His legacy is judged psychologically rather than politically.
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/obama-is-not-your-magical-negro/19350#.WISO2X875Jw.twitter
I voted the other way for the same reasons, my 17 year old daughter would really have liked to vote for herself and for Remain.