Great site this and I am glad to be unbanned, but one of its biggest downsides is that nobody ever accepts they are wrong.
So many posts are written that would be fair enough.... if we hadn't had a referendum and Leave hadn't won. This brexit denial is toe curlingly excruciating, a la Monty Hall.
The Tories have to find a way to square the circle. Hard Brexit means significant, long-term economic uncertainty and disruption. Soft Brexit means concessions on free movement and sovereignty. Voters generally will not accept the former. The Tory right will not accept the latter. The government gives every impression of hoping that something will turn up. It won't. Can the Tories put country before party? Judging by the last six months we should not hold our breaths.
Off-topic. A priceless bit of humour from Sajid Javid, who is proposing a compulsory oath of office for "every new recruit in the public sector, including councillors, school governors and civil servants" and perhaps also "those working in the NHS and the BBC": http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38355373
Apparently the oath could include "tolerating the views of others even if you disagree with them". And if people don't agree with something in the oath, they will be barred from public office and from a large swath of employment.
@tnewtondunn: Intriguing Liam Fox interview on #Marr, says he'll accept Cabinet decision on EU deal, even if it's staying in Customs Union + transition.
There does though seem to be a great difficulty for a certain person to achieve the final stage of grief here and accept we voted to leave. Time to move on as these continuous thread headers are just repetitive, boring and the tantrums of a denied toddler in the sweet shop.
Brexit is going to dominate British politics for the next ten years. We can't just stop discussing it because you're bored of it.
I do hope that it (Brexit) is a colossal disaster though just so I can enjoy being right. After all, what's better than that?
The Tories have to find a way to square the circle. Hard Brexit means significant, long-term economic uncertainty and disruption. Soft Brexit means concessions on free movement and sovereignty. Voters generally will not accept the former. The Tory right will not accept the latter. The government gives every impression of hoping that something will turn up. It won't. Can the Tories put country before party? Judging by the last six months we should not hold our breaths.
Movement with a job offer would do that. It's also entirely reasonable. Let's hope the EU is sensible.
Off-topic. A priceless bit of humour from Sajid Javid, who is proposing a compulsory oath of office for "every new recruit in the public sector, including councillors, school governors and civil servants" and perhaps also "those working in the NHS and the BBC": http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38355373
Apparently the oath could include "tolerating the views of others even if you disagree with them". And if people don't agree with something in the oath, they will be barred from public office and from a large swath of employment.
Perhaps he should ask them to sign the 39 Articles instead? That's what we used to do - prior to 1871.
Back in the real world I was at a party last night with a lot of Europeans, very little hostility towards Brexit. Then again everyone there would be classed as a highly skilled worker. Europeans aren't one homogeneous bloc and the skilled migrants seem absolutely unbothered by Brexit. Even the French person who was there didn't care "who cares if the government deports loads of Eastern Europeans" to paraphrase.
@Charles - it is certainly true that the very wealthy and well-entrenched have absolutely nothing to fear from Brexit. They'll be absolutely fine. The establishment and the elite will just carry on as normal.
@Charles - it is certainly true that the very wealthy and well-entrenched have absolutely nothing to fear from Brexit. They'll be absolutely fine. The establishment and the elite will just carry on as normal.
Their profit margins will fall when they can't pay minimum wage for non minimum wage jobs anymore
@Charles - it is certainly true that the very wealthy and well-entrenched have absolutely nothing to fear from Brexit. They'll be absolutely fine. The establishment and the elite will just carry on as normal.
Their profit margins will fall when they can't pay minimum wage for non minimum wage jobs anymore
@Charles - it is certainly true that the very wealthy and well-entrenched have absolutely nothing to fear from Brexit. They'll be absolutely fine. The establishment and the elite will just carry on as normal.
That is a deliberate misinterpretation of my post.
As you say, the old families (who are not the establishment these days) will do just fine under almost any scenario. But they are also, as a rule, acutely aware of their duties to the people.
@MaxPB - most Brits living in other EU member states are not highly-skilled. They're highly-retired; net beneficiaries, not net recipients. If we send back the non-skilled, we'll be welcoming home many of them too.
@MaxPB - most Brits living in other EU member states are not highly-skilled. They're highly-retired; net beneficiaries, not net recipients. If we send back the non-skilled, we'll be welcoming home many of them too.
So be it. Their loss in most cases since pensioners mostly just spend money.
The debate about EU and UK migrants/expats is much ado about nothing, isn't it? After five years, aren't residency rights available in both jurisdictions?
Much comment has been made on the increase in Britons seeking EU passports, far less on the similar increase in europeans seeking UK ones.
The most concerned and committed citizens (and businesses) are not hanging around waiting on the politicians and their 'deal'.
@Charles - hmmm. Sorry, but entrenched wealth is establishment wealth. Your set may not be as influential as you once were, but as your posts make clear (what was it you were implying about Keir Starmer's unsuitability for office the other day?) you and your family move in the circles where control of the state resides.
Good morning. I wonder how long it'll be before someone seriously proposes a new country consisting of London, New York City, San Fransisco, Edinburgh, etc.
Not so very long ago, we could measure time by the breaking down of barriers. The fall of the Soviet Union, the demolition of the Berlin Wall, the end of Apartheid in South Africa, the Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland… all of these events – and more – told a positive story of a world less conflicted, more open, where the reward for those with the courage to compromise was peace.
Those political leaders who believed in openness, in looking outwards, were dominant. Men and women with big ideas changed the world for the better.
But that momentum has fizzled and died. Now, we’re in the early days of an era of pettiness, where politicians who preach an ideology of isolationism have the whip hand.
No idea is too small, no claim too dirty for these new masters of the universe.
Mr. Felix, you were cool when most of you were voting to Remain. Now you've come off second best to EU citizens in the UK, alas.
But don't worry. I still like you
Oh I've always been cool. I've more than offset my currency losses with 25 % profit on a little €10k punt into Banco Santander shares! As I believe in democracy I think it's time to move on.
@isam - it's business. Companies that rely on minimum wage labour have made a decision about how they are going to make money. I am not a fan, but that's how it works. Shareholders will not accept reduced profit margins.
@MaxPB - most Brits living in other EU member states are not highly-skilled. They're highly-retired; net beneficiaries, not net recipients. If we send back the non-skilled, we'll be welcoming home many of them too.
They are largely of independent means and propping up the real estate economies of certain places.
If the British go home, expect property price problems in the Costas. The Brits are invested.
@Charles - hmmm. Sorry, but entrenched wealth is establishment wealth. Your set may not be as influential as you once were, but as your posts make clear (what was it you were implying about Keir Starmer's unsuitability for office the other day?) you and your family move in the circles where control of the state resides.
The establishment is the people who form and surround the government, including the government, the civil service, the media, etc.
We don't. We just know some of them on an individual level. My mother happened to know Starmer because she was elected as the representative of the council of chairs for the magistrates nationwide when he was DPP. It's a 3 year post, after which she has gone back to being a local JP.
Good morning. I wonder how long it'll be before someone seriously proposes a new country consisting of London, New York City, San Fransisco, Edinburgh, etc.
I would absolutely love to see the people regarded as the metropolitan liberal elite all set up a state where only they lived, & no nasty Leavers were allowed. As with all primates, a hierarchy would soon form and most of them would find themselves in the position of a prole
When a poster exactly echoes Nazi propaganda against Jews, Godwin's law is not a sufficient answer to someone noting that. And Breaking Point exactly echoes Nazi propaganda, as can be seen above.
Much comment has been made on the increase in Britons seeking EU passports, far less on the similar increase in europeans seeking UK ones.
This is potentially going to shift UK politics a little bit. There will be a lot of long-term residents who previously saw no point in jumping through hoops to get UK citizenship, and will now be doing it, and getting the right to vote in the process.
@MaxPB - no, pensioners cost a fortune. But we owe them a debt that must be honoured. Brexit will give us a great opportunity to revisit the whole social care provision debate. It's notbsomething that can be done on the cheap if we want to significantly reduce immigration. That's a good thing.
The one thing the last 6 months have shown is that despite all the regular fake diplomatic hugging and kissing at EU meetings, the EU and more sadly the individual countries have shown to be nothing more than fair weather friends. They wanted us for our money, for our resources(fishing), for our international presence at the top table, but now even those who have cause to be thankful for that little island of the coast of Europe have shown they are just like an ex wife, embittered, spiteful and vindictive.
Whatever happens over Brexit, we now know unequivocally that with friends like these we don't need enemies.
Paranoia alert.
It must be cold in that mental cell you've fashioned. No wonder we decide to Brexit when we assume all our neighbours have it in for us.
@Charles - sorry, you are from a long-established, very wealthy family that has strong connections to those who run the British state. You post about it on here regularly. There's nothing to be ashamed of.
Good morning. I wonder how long it'll be before someone seriously proposes a new country consisting of London, New York City, San Fransisco, Edinburgh, etc.
I would absolutely love to see the people regarded as the metropolitan liberal elite all set up a state where only they lived, & no nasty Leavers were allowed. As with all primates, a hierarchy would soon form and most of them would find themselves in the position of a prole
Whilst leavistan develops into a happy socialist paradise based on all animals being equal. Hmm.
I agree a lot of "ifs" involved here. In this great debate I wavered and started on the remain side (just). I followed the debate closely and listened to all the arguments even on PB but there were 3 main moments in the campaign one of which was very extended that pushed me into the leave camp.
1) Cameron came back with a pup and we all know you can't sell a pup. There was little doubt he would have done of course. He tried at least and he also delivered on the referendum so no shame on him there. If only he had then campaigned leave?
2) Obama walks in and tells us what to do or else. That was a real WTF moment for a lot of people I suspect including the "back of the queue" comment. Presumably this did not apply to military action. If only they hadn't threatened the British people. As someon pointed out the Brits do 'awkward' real good.
3) This was the extended one. There was a huge amount of abuse thrown at those considering leave and the rhetoric became a crescendo towards the end across the entire media spectrum. There was also similar from the leave side of course but in no way the same amount. This reheotoric has continued and still does in snide remarks. Just look at this thread header alone for example. Look how events were attached to the " populist" groups a name now coined for anyone against the grain yet they cannot see they are also populist in a similar way.
Having seen the reactions post referendum then I am glad and very comfortable with the way it went. Remain were more than happy to have the referendum when they thought they would win and of course the result would have been accepted unequivocally. Then they lost and it suddenly became "advisory" people did not understand or the best one it as only a narrow margin so doesn't count. One poster even called for disenfranchisement of the vote for those that voted the wrong way. Can you just imagine those argument being made if the reverse had happened and Remain has carried the day?
The remain camp had 40 years to make its case and yet they failed when finally the people were asked. They had the full government backing and yet they failed. They had the full media backing ( with notable exceptions) and yet they failed. I suspect all along for many years they knew they couldn't carry the vote hence we were always denied it ending up with the disgraceful sneaky signing of Lisbon. That little "tidying up exercise" of a front page and against the will of at least two countries and three countries more likely if we had the promised referendum from Labour.
Lots of ifs in there and if it been done differently maybe the result would have been different.
They had their day in court and they lost. Time to move on as the the jury has upped and left and is supping litres pints in the Britannia arms.
One thing that nobody seems to know for sure is how transient and committed recent arrivals are to the UK.
It's one thing to have bought property, set up a business and raised a family in the UK, it's quite another to be living alone in a bedsit to work on a short term contract.
If the UK economy turned, it's conceivable that there would be a significant exodus.
The one thing the last 6 months have shown is that despite all the regular fake diplomatic hugging and kissing at EU meetings, the EU and more sadly the individual countries have shown to be nothing more than fair weather friends. They wanted us for our money, for our resources(fishing), for our international presence at the top table, but now even those who have cause to be thankful for that little island of the coast of Europe have shown they are just like an ex wife, embittered, spiteful and vindictive.
Whatever happens over Brexit, we now know unequivocally that with friends like these we don't need enemies.
Paranoia alert.
It must be cold in that mental cell you've fashioned. No wonder we decide to Brexit when we assume all our neighbours have it in for us.
Shutting down the immigration debate by calling everyone racist worked so well that the liberal left are doubling down and calling anyone with a legitimate issue with the EU mental? That'll work very well. Keep at it.
@tnewtondunn: Intriguing Liam Fox interview on #Marr, says he'll accept Cabinet decision on EU deal, even if it's staying in Customs Union + transition.
Good for him. He obviously appreciates his ministerial pay packet.
Back in the real world I was at a party last night with a lot of Europeans, very little hostility towards Brexit. Then again everyone there would be classed as a highly skilled worker. Europeans aren't one homogeneous bloc and the skilled migrants seem absolutely unbothered by Brexit. Even the French person who was there didn't care "who cares if the government deports loads of Eastern Europeans" to paraphrase.
Judging by that quote, was the party some kind of fascist meet up?
@isam - the problem with those vile, disgusting, unpatriotic, sneering members of the metropolitan elite is that they create most of the wealth in this country. Without them living standards would plummet.
@MaxPB - no, pensioners cost a fortune. But we owe them a debt that must be honoured. Brexit will give us a great opportunity to revisit the whole social care provision debate. It's notbsomething that can be done on the cheap if we want to significantly reduce immigration. That's a good thing.
A fortune that gets reimbursed. We have 3m EU migrants and around 2m EU workers, how many dependents are there that are a net drain on the taxpayer here?
Back in the real world I was at a party last night with a lot of Europeans, very little hostility towards Brexit. Then again everyone there would be classed as a highly skilled worker. Europeans aren't one homogeneous bloc and the skilled migrants seem absolutely unbothered by Brexit. Even the French person who was there didn't care "who cares if the government deports loads of Eastern Europeans" to paraphrase.
Judging by that quote, was the party some kind of fascist meet up?
Good morning. I wonder how long it'll be before someone seriously proposes a new country consisting of London, New York City, San Fransisco, Edinburgh, etc.
I would absolutely love to see the people regarded as the metropolitan liberal elite all set up a state where only they lived, & no nasty Leavers were allowed. As with all primates, a hierarchy would soon form and most of them would find themselves in the position of a prole
@Charles - sorry, you are from a long-established, very wealthy family that has strong connections to those who run the British state. You post about it on here regularly. There's nothing to be ashamed of.
Only on a personal level - many of them are customers. We don't take sides.
@Charles - hmmm. Sorry, but entrenched wealth is establishment wealth. Your set may not be as influential as you once were, but as your posts make clear (what was it you were implying about Keir Starmer's unsuitability for office the other day?) you and your family move in the circles where control of the state resides.
The establishment is the people who form and surround the government, including the government, the civil service, the media, etc.
We don't. We just know some of them on an individual level. My mother happened to know Starmer because she was elected as the representative of the council of chairs for the magistrates nationwide when he was DPP. It's a 3 year post, after which she has gone back to being a local JP.
Charles's attempts to deny he is part of the establishment is true comedy. Possible comic highlight of the year.
@MaxPB - direct healthcare costs get reimbursed. Indirect ones do not. We only have academic studies to go on with regards to the net cost of EU immigration to the UK, so there's no point in talking about them as you don't believe them.
@isam - the problem with those vile, disgusting, unpatriotic, sneering members of the metropolitan elite is that they create most of the wealth in this country. Without them living standards would plummet.
The one thing the last 6 months have shown is that despite all the regular fake diplomatic hugging and kissing at EU meetings, the EU and more sadly the individual countries have shown to be nothing more than fair weather friends. They wanted us for our money, for our resources(fishing), for our international presence at the top table, but now even those who have cause to be thankful for that little island of the coast of Europe have shown they are just like an ex wife, embittered, spiteful and vindictive.
Whatever happens over Brexit, we now know unequivocally that with friends like these we don't need enemies.
Paranoia alert.
It must be cold in that mental cell you've fashioned. No wonder we decide to Brexit when we assume all our neighbours have it in for us.
Shutting down the immigration debate by calling everyone racist worked so well that the liberal left are doubling down and calling anyone with a legitimate issue with the EU mental? That'll work very well. Keep at it.
Never used the word racist.
Just pointing out this propensity to lump the whole 27 together and cry like a baby about their alleged hostile intentions.
@Charles - hmmm. Sorry, but entrenched wealth is establishment wealth. Your set may not be as influential as you once were, but as your posts make clear (what was it you were implying about Keir Starmer's unsuitability for office the other day?) you and your family move in the circles where control of the state resides.
The establishment is the people who form and surround the government, including the government, the civil service, the media, etc.
We don't. We just know some of them on an individual level. My mother happened to know Starmer because she was elected as the representative of the council of chairs for the magistrates nationwide when he was DPP. It's a 3 year post, after which she has gone back to being a local JP.
Charles's attempts to deny he is part of the establishment is true comedy. Possible comic highlight of the year.
All elites are elite but some are more elite than others. Utterly risible how the right is contorting to pin this elite label on anyone with a different worldview.
Back in the real world I was at a party last night with a lot of Europeans, very little hostility towards Brexit. Then again everyone there would be classed as a highly skilled worker. Europeans aren't one homogeneous bloc and the skilled migrants seem absolutely unbothered by Brexit. Even the French person who was there didn't care "who cares if the government deports loads of Eastern Europeans" to paraphrase.
Judging by that quote, was the party some kind of fascist meet up?
Definitely not, a Hampstead dinner party.
The dark heart of the liberal elite! Impressed. Were you on recon?
The one thing the last 6 months have shown is that despite all the regular fake diplomatic hugging and kissing at EU meetings, the EU and more sadly the individual countries have shown to be nothing more than fair weather friends. They wanted us for our money, for our resources(fishing), for our international presence at the top table, but now even those who have cause to be thankful for that little island of the coast of Europe have shown they are just like an ex wife, embittered, spiteful and vindictive.
Whatever happens over Brexit, we now know unequivocally that with friends like these we don't need enemies.
Paranoia alert.
It must be cold in that mental cell you've fashioned. No wonder we decide to Brexit when we assume all our neighbours have it in for us.
Shutting down the immigration debate by calling everyone racist worked so well that the liberal left are doubling down and calling anyone with a legitimate issue with the EU mental? That'll work very well. Keep at it.
Never used the word racist.
Just pointing out this propensity to lump the whole 27 together and cry like a baby about their alleged hostile intentions.
It's classic paranoia. Infamy, infamy!
There are countless examples of British interests being overridden. It isn't paranoia, it is a history if Britain being on the losing side.
How is calling people Remoaners, telling them they lost and to get over it, and questioning their patriotism not an attempt to shut down debate?
Is is any worse than Remainers calling Leavers racist idiots? No.
Remainers do themselves no favours with endless moaning and mud slinging, if they want to play a part they could come up with something constructive, but by and large they seem more concerned with trying to thwart us leaving and claiming the moral high ground. It's no wonder that Leavers are no longer interested in listening to such people.
Incidentally I knew who wrote the header from the title alone, that's how tedious Remainers have become.
Back in the real world I was at a party last night with a lot of Europeans, very little hostility towards Brexit. Then again everyone there would be classed as a highly skilled worker. Europeans aren't one homogeneous bloc and the skilled migrants seem absolutely unbothered by Brexit. Even the French person who was there didn't care "who cares if the government deports loads of Eastern Europeans" to paraphrase.
Judging by that quote, was the party some kind of fascist meet up?
Definitely not, a Hampstead dinner party.
The dark heart of the liberal elite! Impressed. Were you on recon?
Brexit could actually be a very good way to kickstart a fundamental rethink of the UK and its future. We could be aiming for a new constitutional settlement, while it is clear (see Nissan) that a more interventionist, activist state is also on offer. More redistribution of wealth is also highly likely. Sadly, though, the debate is so much narrower at the moment and seemingly tied almost exclusively to party advantage.
@Charles - hmmm. Sorry, but entrenched wealth is establishment wealth. Your set may not be as influential as you once were, but as your posts make clear (what was it you were implying about Keir Starmer's unsuitability for office the other day?) you and your family move in the circles where control of the state resides.
The establishment is the people who form and surround the government, including the government, the civil service, the media, etc.
We don't. We just know some of them on an individual level. My mother happened to know Starmer because she was elected as the representative of the council of chairs for the magistrates nationwide when he was DPP. It's a 3 year post, after which she has gone back to being a local JP.
Charles's attempts to deny he is part of the establishment is true comedy. Possible comic highlight of the year.
I have a job, a turn up in the office and work from 8 until 7.30 every day. I get paid a wage, and report to a boss who is generous enough to give me some freedom of action. I'm certainly fortunate, but not that different from anyone else who works for a living.
The one thing the last 6 months have shown is that despite all the regular fake diplomatic hugging and kissing at EU meetings, the EU and more sadly the individual countries have shown to be nothing more than fair weather friends. They wanted us for our money, for our resources(fishing), for our international presence at the top table, but now even those who have cause to be thankful for that little island of the coast of Europe have shown they are just like an ex wife, embittered, spiteful and vindictive.
Whatever happens over Brexit, we now know unequivocally that with friends like these we don't need enemies.
Paranoia alert.
It must be cold in that mental cell you've fashioned. No wonder we decide to Brexit when we assume all our neighbours have it in for us.
Shutting down the immigration debate by calling everyone racist worked so well that the liberal left are doubling down and calling anyone with a legitimate issue with the EU mental? That'll work very well. Keep at it.
Never used the word racist.
Just pointing out this propensity to lump the whole 27 together and cry like a baby about their alleged hostile intentions.
It's classic paranoia. Infamy, infamy!
There are countless examples of British interests being overridden. It isn't paranoia, it is a history if Britain being on the losing side.
In any multilateral agreement, there will be cases of compromise (or our interests being overridden, as you state it).
Indeed, in any democracy, there are always groups who don't get their way.
How is calling people Remoaners, telling them they lost and to get over it, and questioning their patriotism not an attempt to shut down debate?
Or Nazis, racists & stupid.
Let's imagine while the referendum campaign was ongoing, our membership of the EU had been temporarily suspended. Remain wins, the country agreed with Cameron's deal, but 6 months on we are still not back in the EU, courts are saying we can't just go back in, & leavers are trying to rerun the whole thing again.
I'd have a small wager the Remainers on here would be telling Leavers to get over it now and then.
@Charles - hmmm. Sorry, but entrenched wealth is establishment wealth. Your set may not be as influential as you once were, but as your posts make clear (what was it you were implying about Keir Starmer's unsuitability for office the other day?) you and your family move in the circles where control of the state resides.
The establishment is the people who form and surround the government, including the government, the civil service, the media, etc.
We don't. We just know some of them on an individual level. My mother happened to know Starmer because she was elected as the representative of the council of chairs for the magistrates nationwide when he was DPP. It's a 3 year post, after which she has gone back to being a local JP.
Charles's attempts to deny he is part of the establishment is true comedy. Possible comic highlight of the year.
I have a job, a turn up in the office and work from 8 until 7.30 every day. I get paid a wage, and report to a boss who is generous enough to give me some freedom of action. I'm certainly fortunate, but not that different from anyone else who works for a living.
The one thing the last 6 months have shown is that despite all the regular fake diplomatic hugging and kissing at EU meetings, the EU and more sadly the individual countries have shown to be nothing more than fair weather friends. They wanted us for our money, for our resources(fishing), for our international presence at the top table, but now even those who have cause to be thankful for that little island of the coast of Europe have shown they are just like an ex wife, embittered, spiteful and vindictive.
Whatever happens over Brexit, we now know unequivocally that with friends like these we don't need enemies.
Paranoia alert.
It must be cold in that mental cell you've fashioned. No wonder we decide to Brexit when we assume all our neighbours have it in for us.
Shutting down the immigration debate by calling everyone racist worked so well that the liberal left are doubling down and calling anyone with a legitimate issue with the EU mental? That'll work very well. Keep at it.
Never used the word racist.
Just pointing out this propensity to lump the whole 27 together and cry like a baby about their alleged hostile intentions.
It's classic paranoia. Infamy, infamy!
There are countless examples of British interests being overridden. It isn't paranoia, it is a history if Britain being on the losing side.
In any multilateral agreement, there will be cases of compromise (or our interests being overridden, as you state it).
Indeed, in any democracy, there are always groups who don't get their way.
The alternative is full on North Korea.
Compromise would be fine, but it is a complete overriding of British interests in too many cases. Juncker was just the latest on a huge list if British failures in the EU.
Mr Meeks writes what would be a good article despoiled with venom towards Leave voting people. Why? It is strange that we never read an article on Political Betting smearing Remainers? Why does not one Leaver on here want to write such an article besmirching Remainers as europhile traitors? Mr Meeks and others like to do it about Leavers. I gently suggest that maybe Leavers on Political Betting have a more tolerant and balanced view of life? Meeks spite. " Leavers (aka spit at Leavers) saw themselves like Captain Onedin, majestically standing on the prow surveying the horizons of the open seas....... Meanwhile, the outside world saw posters implying that Turkey was joining the EU and Nigel Farage smugly standing in front of the Breaking Point poster, exactly echoing Nazi propaganda about Jewish immigrants, as pictured above (aka Leavers = racists).
@chestnut, there was a survey of recent EU arrivals, and less than a quarter said they expected to stay here permanently, with about a third saying they were here for two years or less.
Which is why, post Brexit, I would expect that net immigration to the UK will turn negative.
Someone else has picked up on the car wash issue which I've been talking about for years:
' Our real problem is symbolised by the car wash. A car wash used to mean a machine. Now it means five guys with rags. There are now 20,000 hand car washes in Britain, only a thousand of them regulated. By contrast, in the space of 10 years, the number of rollover car-wash machines has halved – from 9,000 to 4,200. The free-market economic model, combined with a globalised labour market, has produced a kind of reverse industrialisation.
Five guys with rags can undercut a machine that cost tens of thousands of pounds to build, because the entire economic system is geared to distributing the proceeds of globalisation upwards and its costs downwards. '
@isam - I agree. Both sides do it. My point is that it is not a one way street. Seeing people on here who have used the Remoaner, get over it and unpatriotic lines accuse others of seeking to shut debate down is just a bit too rich to ignore. For the record, I cringe and recoil every time I see Leavers as a group described as racists and xenophobes. Not only is it untrue, but it harms arguments I think are valid and that should be considered.
@chestnut, there was a survey of recent EU arrivals, and less than a quarter said they expected to stay here permanently, with about a third saying they were here for two years or less.
Which is why, post Brexit, I would expect that net immigration to the UK will turn negative.
That's interesting.
If the population is that transient and non-committed then it raises a question about the wisdom of investing (private and public sector) in those communities where they reside.
Isam, my favourite Remainer argument is disenfranchising/ignoring the over 60's.
Just as stupid is the idea of age variable values for votes. You go about your day assuming everybody else is a democrat agreeing to the same basic principles, but boy was that wrong.
@MaxPB - most Brits living in other EU member states are not highly-skilled. They're highly-retired; net beneficiaries, not net recipients. If we send back the non-skilled, we'll be welcoming home many of them too.
A British person who has retired abroad will be someone who is spending their pensions and savings in their country of retirement and may well have also invested in property in that country.
They are thus benefitting the economy of their country of retirement.
Five guys with rags can do the job better, I would never put my car through a car wash machine. And they can also do it in a more time-effective way: while I do my shopping, whereas I have to drive it through the machine myself.
Globalisation means that ordinary people start to have the privileges that were formally restricted to the rich: to eat out frequently, to employ labour
@another_richard - isn't an eu immigrant in the UK spending his/her money here and possibly also buying property? Why is that not helping the UK economy?
another_richard "Someone else has picked up on the car wash issue which I've been talking about for years: ' Our real problem is symbolised by the car wash. A car wash used to mean a machine. Now it means five guys with rags. There are now 20,000 hand car washes in Britain, only a thousand of them regulated. By contrast, in the space of 10 years, the number of rollover car-wash machines has halved – from 9,000 to 4,200. The free-market economic model, combined with a globalised labour market, has produced a kind of reverse industrialisation." Guardian Paul Mason This is based on the easy ability to import migrants and then exploit them. “There are a few car washes that employ British workers but a vast majority of hand car washes employ newly arrived immigrants. This is how some owners are able to offer such low prices, by taking advantage of vulnerable people.” http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2015/11/dirty-dealings-how-car-wash-became-hub-human-trafficking
My take from Alastair's article is the word "transactional" and what that is likely to mean for the Brexit negotiations. I presume that he is referring to negotiation theory and the consequences of having a transactional style negotiation.
Mr Meeks writes what would be a good article despoiled with venom towards Leave voting people. Why? It is strange that we never read an article on Political Betting smearing Remainers? Why does not one Leaver on here want to write such an article besmirching Remainers as europhile traitors? Mr Meeks and others like to do it about Leavers. I gently suggest that maybe Leavers on Political Betting have a more tolerant and balanced view of life? Meeks spite. " Leavers (aka spit at Leavers) saw themselves like Captain Onedin, majestically standing on the prow surveying the horizons of the open seas....... Meanwhile, the outside world saw posters implying that Turkey was joining the EU and Nigel Farage smugly standing in front of the Breaking Point poster, exactly echoing Nazi propaganda about Jewish immigrants, as pictured above (aka Leavers = racists).
You miss my point. Leavers have a real image problem (one that I believe is richly deserved but that's by the by). Many Leavers, though not all, portray their choice in terms of sovereignty. As the YouGov opinion poll earlier this week shows, Remainers don't buy that at all - only 8% of Remainers thought that the main reason that Leavers voted leave was sovereignty.
79% of Remainers thought that Leavers voted for Leave mainly because of immigration, racism or xenophobia, because they were misinformed, because of stupidity or ignorance or through lack of knowledge. Posters such as the ones I mentioned contributed heavily to this belief.
I'd place a sporting bet that your Eurocrat in the street views things in a similar way. And if it concludes that Britain is being run on that basis, the EU will negotiate accordingly.
What has the government done for the last few months? Wrap itself in the flag. That's sure to change preconceptions about Britain in Brussels.
@chestnut, there was a survey of recent EU arrivals, and less than a quarter said they expected to stay here permanently, with about a third saying they were here for two years or less.
Which is why, post Brexit, I would expect that net immigration to the UK will turn negative.
Possibly but that's also what we were told in 2008 and whatever the future brings there's going to be far more of the world which is poorer and more deprived compared to Britain than the other way around.
I imagine there were also many more immigrants of previous generations who expected to return to their country of origin than actually did.
May's strategy of having the leading Leavers inside the tent has very clear political advantages, and was probably the right decision to avoid constant sniping. Farage can't do the "not hard enough" line effectively on his own, since anyone even casually familiar with politics realises he'll never be satisfied. The snag, though, is that our negotiators are the B-team, especially Boris, who is now taken seriously by virtually nobody in either British or European politics. We'd get a better result if he were replaced by Gove, who is short of friends but has a coherent mind.
Many here think that Europeans are as preoccupied by Brexit as we are, but passions are not runninng that high on the Continent - it's seen as an eccentric British decision but "hey, the Brits are eccentric, we'll have to live with it when we get round to it". Nobody hates us - the gamut of expression is from mild regret to mild irritation. It's not seen as an existential moment for the EU requiring maximum attention. If the Brits come up with a reasonable-looking package, there will be a show of hard bargsaining but it will be mostly accepted in the end. If we combine hardball attitudes (and Alastair is right about some of the rhetoric) with a maximalist package the EU will shrug and we'll end up with hard Brexit.
I don't think the rights of expats to stay on either way will be a problem, though - that's going to be agreed early on once negotiations are under way as a simple act of common sense and decency. Nobody on either side is actually evil and the general will to get something sensible is there.
Compromise would be fine, but it is a complete overriding of British interests in too many cases. Juncker was just the latest on a huge list if British failures in the EU.
This one of those irreconcilables. I draw a different conclusion.
See also the trade discussion last night in which the claim is that the EU containing 7% stops us from growing our trade with the 93%. No matter how many times we Remainers cite Germany and indicate that the challenges are actually with U.K. education and industrial strategy...we cannot agree.
I appear to be able to post, but not reply. Does anyone know why this might have happened?
Vanilla are looking into the missing ‘quote’ button, but nothing will be done until the new year according to Smithson Jnr. – The PB forum still has the facility, simply click on the comment time stamp (use a different tab for ease) and go from there.
After an article from Mr Meeks moaning and attacking Leavers we then have this from Southam. Incredible.
SouthamObserver Posts: "@glw - Leavers spend their whole time moaning and attacking Remainers. We lost. It doesn't matter what we say. It's your game. Get on with it. "
Isam, my favourite Remainer argument is disenfranchising/ignoring the over 60's.
Just as stupid is the idea of age variable values for votes. You go about your day assuming everybody else is a democrat agreeing to the same basic principles, but boy was that wrong.
Quite. Nothing has astonished and revolted me more to witness than the anti-democratic traits here and in the USA.
@another_richard - isn't an eu immigrant in the UK spending his/her money here and possibly also buying property? Why is that not helping the UK economy?
That's where an immigration filter becomes necessary.
You really do not have to go very far in London to find someone who has arrived in the UK who is doing 16 hours unskilled work and receiving tens of thousands per annum in cash from the state as well as free access to maternity, nursery and education services.
We grow enough of our own citizens with these characteristics; importing more is neither necessary or desirable.
Merkel's comments about reinterpreting the meaning of FoM point towards a UK/EU accord on this point at least.
@NickPalmer - On European attitudes to Brexit, your experience chimes with mine. Bemused amusement is the emotion I come across most. I am not sure that is the case in Brussels, though. The Eurocrat class is angry, I think. Luckily, it is almost entirely irrelevant, too. The dealmaking will be done by more pragmatic national governments. But they will dictate to us and our B-team is unlikely to cause them too many concerns. Any breakdown in talks hurts us more than them. Everyone knows this.
Compromise would be fine, but it is a complete overriding of British interests in too many cases. Juncker was just the latest on a huge list if British failures in the EU.
This one of those irreconcilables. I draw a different conclusion.
See also the trade discussion last night in which the claim is that the EU containing 7% stops us from growing our trade with the 93%. No matter how many times we Remainers cite Germany and indicate that the challenges are actually with U.K. education and industrial strategy...we cannot agree.
Please do not misquote - this seems to be a habit now amongst Remainers.
The claim was not that it 'stops' us trading with the other 93% but that it inhibits that trade. It puts up barriers over which we have no control and so limits our ability to trade freely. That is undeniable.
@chestnut - British expats in the eu are getting all those services for free too. The problem with tax credits, to the extent it exists, is a domestic policy problem, not an eu one.
Great site this and I am glad to be unbanned, but one of its biggest downsides is that nobody ever accepts they are wrong.
So many posts are written that would be fair enough.... if we hadn't had a referendum and Leave hadn't won. This brexit denial is toe curlingly excruciating, a la Monty Hall.
Isn't the whole point of the Monty Hall problem that it is often wise to change your mind after making a decision?
Quite. Nothing has astonished and revolted me more to witness than the anti-democratic traits here and in the USA.
What's concerning is that these anti-democratic views are apparently sincere, not just a provocative thing said in anger by the losing side. I find that much more worrying than anything about Brexit itself, or the potential of President Trump. Universal suffrage and the equality of votes are fundamental parts of our democracy, not something to be tampered with.
Mr Meeks writes what would be a good article despoiled with venom towards Leave voting people. Why? It is strange that we never read an article on Political Betting smearing Remainers? Why does not one Leaver on here want to write such an article besmirching Remainers as europhile traitors? Mr Meeks and others like to do it about Leavers. I gently suggest that maybe Leavers on Political Betting have a more tolerant and balanced view of life? Meeks spite. " Leavers (aka spit at Leavers) saw themselves like Captain Onedin, majestically standing on the prow surveying the horizons of the open seas....... Meanwhile, the outside world saw posters implying that Turkey was joining the EU and Nigel Farage smugly standing in front of the Breaking Point poster, exactly echoing Nazi propaganda about Jewish immigrants, as pictured above (aka Leavers = racists).
You miss my point. Leavers have a real image problem (one that I believe is richly deserved but that's by the by). Many Leavers, though not all, portray their choice in terms of sovereignty. As the YouGov opinion poll earlier this week shows, Remainers don't buy that at all - only 8% of Remainers thought that the main reason that Leavers voted leave was sovereignty. ..snip What has the government done for the last few months? Wrap itself in the flag. That's sure to change preconceptions about Britain in Brussels.
Mr Meeks "You miss my point. Leavers have a real image problem (one that I believe is richly deserved but that's by the by). Many Leavers, though not all, portray their choice in terms of sovereignty......... " You make the same point again and again. You label Leavers as "bad" and Remainers as "good". Remainers actually have a festering anti-British and anti-democracy image. It is a beams and motes matter. You perceive yourself as without fault, so you feel justified to chuck stones.
"What has the government done for the last few months? Wrap itself in the flag. That's sure to change preconceptions about Britain in Brussels." Now this is the right question to ask after 6 months of Mrs May. Which only happens from 11th January 2017. This govt has been in place for 5 months. But I agree that time is running out for Mrs May and it may be that the problems stem from having 3 out of the 4 top jobs in Govt filled with Remainers. They just do not have the drive and belief to succeed?
"The Government has dramatically halted new contracts with British foreign aid contractors after The Mail on Sunday exposed dirty tricks in the industry.
Taxpayer-funded deals worth millions of pounds have been frozen after Ministers ordered a wide-ranging probe into the ‘poverty barons’ profiting from the aid business.
Compromise would be fine, but it is a complete overriding of British interests in too many cases. Juncker was just the latest on a huge list if British failures in the EU.
This one of those irreconcilables. I draw a different conclusion.
See also the trade discussion last night in which the claim is that the EU containing 7% stops us from growing our trade with the 93%. No matter how many times we Remainers cite Germany and indicate that the challenges are actually with U.K. education and industrial strategy...we cannot agree.
Please do not misquote - this seems to be a habit now amongst Remainers.
The claim was not that it 'stops' us trading with the other 93% but that it inhibits that trade. It puts up barriers over which we have no control and so limits our ability to trade freely. That is undeniable.
Well I haven't noticed any trade barrier set up by the EU that stops me trading outside the EU. Which ones did you have in mind?
Compromise would be fine, but it is a complete overriding of British interests in too many cases. Juncker was just the latest on a huge list if British failures in the EU.
This one of those irreconcilables. I draw a different conclusion.
See also the trade discussion last night in which the claim is that the EU containing 7% stops us from growing our trade with the 93%. No matter how many times we Remainers cite Germany and indicate that the challenges are actually with U.K. education and industrial strategy...we cannot agree.
Germany is better at exports because (a) it has more medium sized companies that have to export to grow [it is notable that the Mittelstant do better in China than big German companies] and (b) its economy is more heavily weighted to engineering and industrial goods than the UK (we are focused on value added services and specialist engineering).
Emerging markets are at a stage of development where they need German products more than British products right now.
@glw - completely agree. That's why voter suppression and gerrymandering is such a worry in the US. Not sure how you can ever have equality of vote in an FPTP system.
Comments
So many posts are written that would be fair enough.... if we hadn't had a referendum and Leave hadn't won. This brexit denial is toe curlingly excruciating, a la Monty Hall.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38355373
Apparently the oath could include "tolerating the views of others even if you disagree with them". And if people don't agree with something in the oath, they will be barred from public office and from a large swath of employment.
I do hope that it (Brexit) is a colossal disaster though just so I can enjoy being right. After all, what's better than that?
As you say, the old families (who are not the establishment these days) will do just fine under almost any scenario. But they are also, as a rule, acutely aware of their duties to the people.
Much comment has been made on the increase in Britons seeking EU passports, far less on the similar increase in europeans seeking UK ones.
The most concerned and committed citizens (and businesses) are not hanging around waiting on the politicians and their 'deal'.
Those political leaders who believed in openness, in looking outwards, were dominant. Men and women with big ideas changed the world for the better.
But that momentum has fizzled and died. Now, we’re in the early days of an era of pettiness, where politicians who preach an ideology of isolationism have the whip hand.
No idea is too small, no claim too dirty for these new masters of the universe.
Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/euan-mccolm-two-tragedies-herald-start-of-a-dark-era-1-4320151
If the British go home, expect property price problems in the Costas. The Brits are invested.
We don't. We just know some of them on an individual level. My mother happened to know Starmer because she was elected as the representative of the council of chairs for the magistrates nationwide when he was DPP. It's a 3 year post, after which she has gone back to being a local JP.
It must be cold in that mental cell you've fashioned. No wonder we decide to Brexit when we assume all our neighbours have it in for us.
Good to see you back Mr Isam.
I agree a lot of "ifs" involved here. In this great debate I wavered and started on the remain side (just). I followed the debate closely and listened to all the arguments even on PB but there were 3 main moments in the campaign one of which was very extended that pushed me into the leave camp.
1) Cameron came back with a pup and we all know you can't sell a pup. There was little doubt he would have done of course. He tried at least and he also delivered on the referendum so no shame on him there. If only he had then campaigned leave?
2) Obama walks in and tells us what to do or else. That was a real WTF moment for a lot of people I suspect including the "back of the queue" comment. Presumably this did not apply to military action. If only they hadn't threatened the British people. As someon pointed out the Brits do 'awkward' real good.
3) This was the extended one. There was a huge amount of abuse thrown at those considering leave and the rhetoric became a crescendo towards the end across the entire media spectrum. There was also similar from the leave side of course but in no way the same amount. This reheotoric has continued and still does in snide remarks. Just look at this thread header alone for example. Look how events were attached to the " populist" groups a name now coined for anyone against the grain yet they cannot see they are also populist in a similar way.
Having seen the reactions post referendum then I am glad and very comfortable with the way it went. Remain were more than happy to have the referendum when they thought they would win and of course the result would have been accepted unequivocally. Then they lost and it suddenly became "advisory" people did not understand or the best one it as only a narrow margin so doesn't count. One poster even called for disenfranchisement of the vote for those that voted the wrong way. Can you just imagine those argument being made if the reverse had happened and Remain has carried the day?
The remain camp had 40 years to make its case and yet they failed when finally the people were asked. They had the full government backing and yet they failed. They had the full media backing ( with notable exceptions) and yet they failed. I suspect all along for many years they knew they couldn't carry the vote hence we were always denied it ending up with the disgraceful sneaky signing of Lisbon. That little "tidying up exercise" of a front page and against the will of at least two countries and three countries more likely if we had the promised referendum from Labour.
Lots of ifs in there and if it been done differently maybe the result would have been different.
They had their day in court and they lost. Time to move on as the the jury has upped and left and is supping
litrespints in the Britannia arms.It's one thing to have bought property, set up a business and raised a family in the UK, it's quite another to be living alone in a bedsit to work on a short term contract.
If the UK economy turned, it's conceivable that there would be a significant exodus.
Just pointing out this propensity to lump the whole 27 together and cry like a baby about their alleged hostile intentions.
It's classic paranoia. Infamy, infamy!
Remainers do themselves no favours with endless moaning and mud slinging, if they want to play a part they could come up with something constructive, but by and large they seem more concerned with trying to thwart us leaving and claiming the moral high ground. It's no wonder that Leavers are no longer interested in listening to such people.
Incidentally I knew who wrote the header from the title alone, that's how tedious Remainers have become.
Indeed, in any democracy, there are always groups who don't get their way.
The alternative is full on North Korea.
Let's imagine while the referendum campaign was ongoing, our membership of the EU had been temporarily suspended. Remain wins, the country agreed with Cameron's deal, but 6 months on we are still not back in the EU, courts are saying we can't just go back in, & leavers are trying to rerun the whole thing again.
I'd have a small wager the Remainers on here would be telling Leavers to get over it now and then.
Meeks spite.
" Leavers (aka spit at Leavers) saw themselves like Captain Onedin, majestically standing on the prow surveying the horizons of the open seas....... Meanwhile, the outside world saw posters implying that Turkey was joining the EU and Nigel Farage smugly standing in front of the Breaking Point poster, exactly echoing Nazi propaganda about Jewish immigrants, as pictured above (aka Leavers = racists).
Which is why, post Brexit, I would expect that net immigration to the UK will turn negative.
' Our real problem is symbolised by the car wash. A car wash used to mean a machine. Now it means five guys with rags. There are now 20,000 hand car washes in Britain, only a thousand of them regulated. By contrast, in the space of 10 years, the number of rollover car-wash machines has halved – from 9,000 to 4,200. The free-market economic model, combined with a globalised labour market, has produced a kind of reverse industrialisation.
Five guys with rags can undercut a machine that cost tens of thousands of pounds to build, because the entire economic system is geared to distributing the proceeds of globalisation upwards and its costs downwards. '
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/12/mark-carney-britains-car-wash-economy-low-wage-jobs
If the population is that transient and non-committed then it raises a question about the wisdom of investing (private and public sector) in those communities where they reside.
They are thus benefitting the economy of their country of retirement.
Five guys with rags can do the job better, I would never put my car through a car wash machine. And they can also do it in a more time-effective way: while I do my shopping, whereas I have to drive it through the machine myself.
Globalisation means that ordinary people start to have the privileges that were formally restricted to the rich: to eat out frequently, to employ labour
This is based on the easy ability to import migrants and then exploit them.
“There are a few car washes that employ British workers but a vast majority of hand car washes employ newly arrived immigrants. This is how some owners are able to offer such low prices, by taking advantage of vulnerable people.”
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2015/11/dirty-dealings-how-car-wash-became-hub-human-trafficking
79% of Remainers thought that Leavers voted for Leave mainly because of immigration, racism or xenophobia, because they were misinformed, because of stupidity or ignorance or through lack of knowledge. Posters such as the ones I mentioned contributed heavily to this belief.
I'd place a sporting bet that your Eurocrat in the street views things in a similar way. And if it concludes that Britain is being run on that basis, the EU will negotiate accordingly.
What has the government done for the last few months? Wrap itself in the flag. That's sure to change preconceptions about Britain in Brussels.
I imagine there were also many more immigrants of previous generations who expected to return to their country of origin than actually did.
May's strategy of having the leading Leavers inside the tent has very clear political advantages, and was probably the right decision to avoid constant sniping. Farage can't do the "not hard enough" line effectively on his own, since anyone even casually familiar with politics realises he'll never be satisfied. The snag, though, is that our negotiators are the B-team, especially Boris, who is now taken seriously by virtually nobody in either British or European politics. We'd get a better result if he were replaced by Gove, who is short of friends but has a coherent mind.
Many here think that Europeans are as preoccupied by Brexit as we are, but passions are not runninng that high on the Continent - it's seen as an eccentric British decision but "hey, the Brits are eccentric, we'll have to live with it when we get round to it". Nobody hates us - the gamut of expression is from mild regret to mild irritation. It's not seen as an existential moment for the EU requiring maximum attention. If the Brits come up with a reasonable-looking package, there will be a show of hard bargsaining but it will be mostly accepted in the end. If we combine hardball attitudes (and Alastair is right about some of the rhetoric) with a maximalist package the EU will shrug and we'll end up with hard Brexit.
I don't think the rights of expats to stay on either way will be a problem, though - that's going to be agreed early on once negotiations are under way as a simple act of common sense and decency. Nobody on either side is actually evil and the general will to get something sensible is there.
I draw a different conclusion.
See also the trade discussion last night in which the claim is that the EU containing 7% stops us from growing our trade with the 93%. No matter how many times we Remainers cite Germany and indicate that the challenges are actually with U.K. education and industrial strategy...we cannot agree.
SouthamObserver Posts: "@glw - Leavers spend their whole time moaning and attacking Remainers. We lost. It doesn't matter what we say. It's your game. Get on with it. "
Hundreds of thousands of EU citizens return to their countries every year right now. It's just that that is outweighed by the numbers arriving.
The problem being that our cars are now better washed for less money?
You really do not have to go very far in London to find someone who has arrived in the UK who is doing 16 hours unskilled work and receiving tens of thousands per annum in cash from the state as well as free access to maternity, nursery and education services.
We grow enough of our own citizens with these characteristics; importing more is neither necessary or desirable.
Merkel's comments about reinterpreting the meaning of FoM point towards a UK/EU accord on this point at least.
Look at all the criticism May gets for not conceding unilaterally- then compare it with the silence that met Merkel's refusal to even discuss it.'
Same as the liberal elite's criticism of the UK government over the Calais jungle,never a word in anger directed at the French government.
The claim was not that it 'stops' us trading with the other 93% but that it inhibits that trade. It puts up barriers over which we have no control and so limits our ability to trade freely. That is undeniable.
You make the same point again and again. You label Leavers as "bad" and Remainers as "good". Remainers actually have a festering anti-British and anti-democracy image. It is a beams and motes matter. You perceive yourself as without fault, so you feel justified to chuck stones.
"What has the government done for the last few months? Wrap itself in the flag. That's sure to change preconceptions about Britain in Brussels."
Now this is the right question to ask after 6 months of Mrs May. Which only happens from 11th January 2017. This govt has been in place for 5 months. But I agree that time is running out for Mrs May and it may be that the problems stem from having 3 out of the 4 top jobs in Govt filled with Remainers. They just do not have the drive and belief to succeed?
"The Government has dramatically halted new contracts with British foreign aid contractors after The Mail on Sunday exposed dirty tricks in the industry.
Taxpayer-funded deals worth millions of pounds have been frozen after Ministers ordered a wide-ranging probe into the ‘poverty barons’ profiting from the aid business.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4044700/Mail-Sunday-victory-campaign-leads-foreign-aid-freeze.html#ixzz4TBe5kRM0
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Emerging markets are at a stage of development where they need German products more than British products right now.