The most interesting question is whether the rest of the EU would want Article 50 to be potentially revocable unilaterally by Britain. My sense is that the answer is "probably not".
Thanks! But isn't the time of invocation also when it takes effect?
I think what he is saying is that triggering Article 50 is the notice in writing specified in the Vienna Convention.
But no doubt one of our legal experts could comment more authoritatively than me on this.
The suggestion is that where the treaty is silent then the Vienna convention would apply. Thereby suggesting that the 'Generalis' rule does not here apply, because there is no specific wording on revocation at all in article 50.
Now I think further about this, Gina Millar may well have done May a massive favour.
The Supreme Court judgement will be out in the new year, probably against the government - but there will be authoritative legal ruling on the subject of the steps needed to invoke Art 50.
Sans Millar this case may well have become the only legal opinion on the entire matter. And that would be trickier for the Gov't if the matter came down from the ECJ... This way round we have what should be the ultimate arbiter of British law lawing first.
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
The most interesting question is whether the rest of the EU would want Article 50 to be potentially revocable unilaterally by Britain. My sense is that the answer is "probably not".
Yes, there is a distinction between the strict legal interpretation, and the practical politics, both in the UK and the rest of the EU. That's why I said in my first comment that we should just assume it is not revocable; in practice, we are on our way out.
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
Jo Maugham ought to raise his case in a British Court if he feels he has one. Clearly using Dublin is a tawdry back door delaying tactic - although they're coming from a similiar angle at least Millar's case will be decided by British judges in British courts. Ultimately it makes no difference as to whether Art 50. is recovable or not in the (initial) serving of it, I expect the ECJ will rule irrecovability (If it gets that far) and the de-facto process of leaving will have begun by then anyway. There is no need for UK parliament to pay the slightest attention to a Dublin court at this point anyway.
All a bit #NeverTrumpy.
It rather depends. The ECJ exists to protect the direction of the project, to uphold the ratchet. Does it help the project to lose a contributing member with a large trade surplus, or is it better to see a recalcitrant removed from the process of integration.
This is why its difficult to see what might come of any case, but the weight of legal opinion is with revocability at present
And it does not on jot matter for the serving of A50. In fact as Alastair Meeks points out, I'm guessing the EU would be quite furious if the ECJ did rule revocability - as that only strengthens Britain's hand. It also makes a mockery of the article I feel. A50 simply has to be the no return point on the rollercoaster. We can rejoin in 20-40 years time say if that is the view of the country at the time, but we must leave first !
And just so we are clear, there is nothing legally preventing us invoking Article 50 even if it is not yet known if it is revocable or not?
The legal issue was the sequencing of Parliament's revocation of the European Communities Act, the 1972 act that brought us into the then European Community. An act of parliament can't be revoked by executive action on the Royal Prerogative. If Article 50 is irrevocable, it would automatically require the 1972 Act to be revoked, in which case the argument went,Parliament would have to vote on Article 50 itself. If Article 50 is revocable, in theory the government could go through two years of negotiation and Parliament could then decide that was crap, we're staying in the EU after all. Although a revocable A50 would help them with their short term legal issue you can see why the government doesn't want the exit process to be revocable.
The most interesting question is whether the rest of the EU would want Article 50 to be potentially revocable unilaterally by Britain. My sense is that the answer is "probably not".
Indeed. Given the absence of specific language on revocation of A50 in the Lisbon Treaty, is the politically appointed ECJ not most likely to rule in whichever way makes sense in the context of 'ever closer union'? From the EU point of view, revocation makes no sense as it removes an aspect of the negotiation that would be favourable to their side.
Your reminder on why Hillary lost (remember the report that they didn't campaign in Michigan and Wisconsin because they didn't want to appear weak in front of Trump? ) :
Why does anyone need to worry about whether Article 50 is revocable? The public has spoken. In a referendum. They have said "Get us out." No going back.
It is a complete side-show, crafted by people desperate to deny democracy.
The most interesting question is whether the rest of the EU would want Article 50 to be potentially revocable unilaterally by Britain. My sense is that the answer is "probably not".
Not unilaterally by Britain, but they might want it to be revocable by themselves. They have made it difficult for either. Funnily enough, Article 50 makes leaving the EU easy if you don't care about the deal you get.
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
Is this news ? Martin McGuiness is the Deputy Leader of Sinn Fein. He had lunch with the Queen. Should she be ashamed ? Should she abdicate ?
Jayne Fisher, whoever she is, probably was not even born when the troubles started in NI. I don't know.
The Queen probably didn't want to start the troubles again by refusing to meet him. I doubt she would employ him or have him in the office though.
The Queen had no option but to act on the advice of her Ministers.
Corbyn, on the other hand, has a choice. He was on the side of the terrorists. He wanted them to win and he voted against one of the agreements reached to try and end the Troubles. (This last comment is directed at Surbiton, who doesn't seem to understand the difference between what HMQ has to do and what the LoTo chooses to do.)
The Queen can use the Royal Prerogative. If she had strong views, she would have expressed them. She isn't a wilting violet.
This discussion of Corbyn appointing some Sinn Fein staffer is a bit desperate. There are far better grounds for criticising Corbyn that would gain more traction than this niche whine.
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
Is this news ? Martin McGuiness is the Deputy Leader of Sinn Fein. He had lunch with the Queen. Should she be ashamed ? Should she abdicate ?
Jayne Fisher, whoever she is, probably was not even born when the troubles started in NI. I don't know.
HM isn't actually seeking to govern the country. And her efforts at reconciliation should be commended, especially after their murder of Lord Mountbatten.
The fact is that Sinn Fein is a recognised political party and in government in the United Kingdom. Their leaders meet the Queen and the heir to the throne.
If it is good enough for the Queen, it is good enough for Corbyn.
That will be the line. You guys can go into a corner and suck whatever you want to.
Your reminder on why Hillary lost (remember the report that they didn't campaign in Michigan and Wisconsin because they didn't want to appear weak in front of Trump? ) :
I really hope there are a couple of books covering the campaign published soon like there was for the EU referendum.
Someone from this terrible campaign is surely going to want to make hay while the sun shines? If I were a political publisher I'd have the cheque book open and a couple of million dollars in the bank.
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
Is this news ? Martin McGuiness is the Deputy Leader of Sinn Fein. He had lunch with the Queen. Should she be ashamed ? Should she abdicate ?
Jayne Fisher, whoever she is, probably was not even born when the troubles started in NI. I don't know.
The Queen probably didn't want to start the troubles again by refusing to meet him. I doubt she would employ him or have him in the office though.
The Queen had no option but to act on the advice of her Ministers.
Corbyn, on the other hand, has a choice. He was on the side of the terrorists. He wanted them to win and he voted against one of the agreements reached to try and end the Troubles. (This last comment is directed at Surbiton, who doesn't seem to understand the difference between what HMQ has to do and what the LoTo chooses to do.)
The Queen can use the Royal Prerogative. If she had strong views, she would have expressed them. She isn't a wilting violet.
This discussion of Corbyn appointing some Sinn Fein staffer is a bit desperate. There are far better grounds for criticising Corbyn that would gain more traction than this niche whine.
I think HYUFD's characterisation of TSE's politics is unfair. If Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine can be Tories, so can TSE. I think even John Major was on the 'left' of the Conservative party as well. Certainly, though TSE is the most socially liberal Conservative I've encountered. He is fiscally conservative at most.
When people talk about consigning the Labour party to the dustbin of history, I always wonder what they think will come next after that. Do they feel that centre-right parties should be only type of political party on the ballot? Or, do they desire another centre-left party to emerge that isn't Labour?
Why does anyone need to worry about whether Article 50 is revocable? The public has spoken. In a referendum. They have said "Get us out." No going back.
It is a complete side-show, crafted by people desperate to deny democracy.
Over 100 comments in to the thread before Mark gets it. Nail. Head.
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
Is this news ? Martin McGuiness is the Deputy Leader of Sinn Fein. He had lunch with the Queen. Should she be ashamed ? Should she abdicate ?
Jayne Fisher, whoever she is, probably was not even born when the troubles started in NI. I don't know.
HM isn't actually seeking to govern the country. And her efforts at reconciliation should be commended, especially after their murder of Lord Mountbatten.
The fact is that Sinn Fein is a recognised political party and in government in the United Kingdom. Their leaders meet the Queen and the heir to the throne.
If it is good enough for the Queen, it is good enough for Corbyn.
That will be the line. You guys can go into a corner and suck whatever you want to.
Well, let's see how Corbyn's association with Sinn Fein goes down in the country at large.
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
Is this news ? Martin McGuiness is the Deputy Leader of Sinn Fein. He had lunch with the Queen. Should she be ashamed ? Should she abdicate ?
Jayne Fisher, whoever she is, probably was not even born when the troubles started in NI. I don't know.
The Queen probably didn't want to start the troubles again by refusing to meet him. I doubt she would employ him or have him in the office though.
The Queen had no option but to act on the advice of her Ministers.
Corbyn, on the other hand, has a choice. He was on the side of the terrorists. He wanted them to win and he voted against one of the agreements reached to try and end the Troubles. (This last comment is directed at Surbiton, who doesn't seem to understand the difference between what HMQ has to do and what the LoTo chooses to do.)
The Queen can use the Royal Prerogative. If she had strong views, she would have expressed them. She isn't a wilting violet.
This discussion of Corbyn appointing some Sinn Fein staffer is a bit desperate. There are far better grounds for criticising Corbyn that would gain more traction than this niche whine.
Normally we agree.
Not in this. Corbyn is a misfit and the very concept of the United Kingdom is distasteful to him. This is yet another manifestation of that.
I think HYUFD's characterisation of TSE's politics is unfair. If Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine can be Tories, so can TSE. I think even John Major was on the 'left' of the Conservative party as well. Certainly, though TSE is the most socially liberal Conservative I've encountered. He is fiscally conservative at most.
When people talk about consigning the Labour party to the dustbin of history, I always wonder what they think will come next after that. Do they feel that centre-right parties should be only type of political party on the ballot? Or, do they desire another centre-left party to emerge that isn't Labour?
Centre-left is defined by where the centre is, and that is not a static point.
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
As my wife just said 'traitor'
There is absolutely no need to be nasty towards the Queen just because she had lunch with Martin McGuiness.
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
Is this news ? Martin McGuiness is the Deputy Leader of Sinn Fein. He had lunch with the Queen. Should she be ashamed ? Should she abdicate ?
Jayne Fisher, whoever she is, probably was not even born when the troubles started in NI. I don't know.
HM isn't actually seeking to govern the country. And her efforts at reconciliation should be commended, especially after their murder of Lord Mountbatten.
The fact is that Sinn Fein is a recognised political party and in government in the United Kingdom. Their leaders meet the Queen and the heir to the throne.
If it is good enough for the Queen, it is good enough for Corbyn.
That will be the line. You guys can go into a corner and suck whatever you want to.
Well, let's see how Corbyn's association with Sinn Fein goes down in the country at large.
Even if the hiring of this aide gets no traction with the public now - and let's face it, it's a bit of a Village story the week before Christmas - it will be yet another nail for the Tories and UKIP to stick in Corbyn's metaphorical coffin come election time.
The BNP was, until fairly recently, a legitimate political party, with elected councillors and MEPs. Presumably all those who are cool with the idea of Corbyn employing an ex-Sinn Fein staffer would be equally relaxed if he wanted to hire an ex-BNP staffer.
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
As noted downthread, she acts under advice from her ministers. What better way to defuse a probably extremely awkward situation than with a few jokes.
The IRA murdered her husband's uncle. She has been Queen for over sixty years. Most ministers weren't born when she became Queen. I'm sure she was closely consulted on this matter and not simply told what to do. She decided to shake hands with McGuinness. Time to move on.
I must say that several contributors to this board who I greatly admire for their well argued well written contributions lose a little bit of credibility when they obsess over Corbyn and Sinn Fein. They are flogging a very dead horse.
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
Is this news ? Martin McGuiness is the Deputy Leader of Sinn Fein. He had lunch with the Queen. Should she be ashamed ? Should she abdicate ?
Jayne Fisher, whoever she is, probably was not even born when the troubles started in NI. I don't know.
HM isn't actually seeking to govern the country. And her efforts at reconciliation should be commended, especially after their murder of Lord Mountbatten.
The fact is that Sinn Fein is a recognised political party and in government in the United Kingdom. Their leaders meet the Queen and the heir to the throne.
If it is good enough for the Queen, it is good enough for Corbyn.
That will be the line. You guys can go into a corner and suck whatever you want to.
Well, let's see how Corbyn's association with Sinn Fein goes down in the country at large.
Even if the hiring of this aide gets no traction with the public now - and let's face it, it's a bit of a Village story the week before Christmas - it will be yet another nail for the Tories and UKIP to stick in Corbyn's metaphorical coffin come election time.
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
As noted downthread, she acts under advice from her ministers. What better way to defuse a probably extremely awkward situation than with a few jokes.
The IRA murdered her husband's uncle. She has been Queen for over sixty years. Most ministers weren't born when she became Queen. I'm sure she was closely consulted on this matter and not simply told what to do. She decided to shake hands with McGuinness. Time to move on.
I must say that several contributors to this board who I greatly admire for their well argued well written contributions lose a little bit of credibility when they obsess over Corbyn and Sinn Fein. They are flogging a very dead horse.
I think I would agree with you that it was no different had the Queen hired someone from Sinn Fein to act as her PR person, or similar. What she was engaged in was diplomacy, which involves shaking hands with a lot of unpleasant people.
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
As noted downthread, she acts under advice from her ministers. What better way to defuse a probably extremely awkward situation than with a few jokes.
The IRA murdered her husband's uncle. She has been Queen for over sixty years. Most ministers weren't born when she became Queen. I'm sure she was closely consulted on this matter and not simply told what to do. She decided to shake hands with McGuinness. Time to move on.
I must say that several contributors to this board who I greatly admire for their well argued well written contributions lose a little bit of credibility when they obsess over Corbyn and Sinn Fein. They are flogging a very dead horse.
I think I would agree with you that it was no different had the Queen hired someone from Sinn Fein to act as her PR person, or similar. What she was engaged in was diplomacy, which involves shaking hands with a lot of unpleasant people.
Quite. She's broken bread with far worse in the cause of good international relations.
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
Is this news ? Martin McGuiness is the Deputy Leader of Sinn Fein. He had lunch with the Queen. Should she be ashamed ? Should she abdicate ?
Jayne Fisher, whoever she is, probably was not even born when the troubles started in NI. I don't know.
HM isn't actually seeking to govern the country. And her efforts at reconciliation should be commended, especially after their murder of Lord Mountbatten.
The fact is that Sinn Fein is a recognised political party and in government in the United Kingdom. Their leaders meet the Queen and the heir to the throne.
If it is good enough for the Queen, it is good enough for Corbyn.
That will be the line. You guys can go into a corner and suck whatever you want to.
Well, let's see how Corbyn's association with Sinn Fein goes down in the country at large.
Even if the hiring of this aide gets no traction with the public now - and let's face it, it's a bit of a Village story the week before Christmas - it will be yet another nail for the Tories and UKIP to stick in Corbyn's metaphorical coffin come election time.
Dead horse. They'll have better nails.
There's certainly not going to be a nail shortage in CCHQ ahead of the next election, that much is certain.
Your reminder on why Hillary lost (remember the report that they didn't campaign in Michigan and Wisconsin because they didn't want to appear weak in front of Trump? ) :
I really hope there are a couple of books covering the campaign published soon like there was for the EU referendum.
Someone from this terrible campaign is surely going to want to make hay while the sun shines? If I were a political publisher I'd have the cheque book open and a couple of million dollars in the bank.
Yes. I imagine there would be a fair amount of money to be made from such a book. Clinton travelled with dozens of journalists so it isn't like noone was there to witness the shocker of a campaign.
I will have another look on Amazon.com and see if there is anything lined up for publication.
It's ironic that if the original European Constitution had been ratified, the 1972 Act would have been replaced and the question of the process for withdrawal would have been dealt with.
I think HYUFD's characterisation of TSE's politics is unfair. If Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine can be Tories, so can TSE. I think even John Major was on the 'left' of the Conservative party as well. Certainly, though TSE is the most socially liberal Conservative I've encountered. He is fiscally conservative at most.
When people talk about consigning the Labour party to the dustbin of history, I always wonder what they think will come next after that. Do they feel that centre-right parties should be only type of political party on the ballot? Or, do they desire another centre-left party to emerge that isn't Labour?
You must have led a very narrow life then if TSE is as socially liberal a conservative as you've run across.
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
Is this news ? Martin McGuiness is the Deputy Leader of Sinn Fein. He had lunch with the Queen. Should she be ashamed ? Should she abdicate ?
Jayne Fisher, whoever she is, probably was not even born when the troubles started in NI. I don't know.
HM isn't actually seeking to govern the country. And her efforts at reconciliation should be commended, especially after their murder of Lord Mountbatten.
The fact is that Sinn Fein is a recognised political party and in government in the United Kingdom. Their leaders meet the Queen and the heir to the throne.
If it is good enough for the Queen, it is good enough for Corbyn.
That will be the line. You guys can go into a corner and suck whatever you want to.
Well, let's see how Corbyn's association with Sinn Fein goes down in the country at large.
Why doesn't Corbyn roll in the mud like Trump does ?
Although Corbyn looks squeaky clean, I believe going out staging rallies and talking to people all the time with a strong social media and anti-media message can work.
Corbyn is at his best when he is campaigning, when he is not campaigning he allows others to throw mud at him with no punch-back.
I think HYUFD's characterisation of TSE's politics is unfair. If Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine can be Tories, so can TSE. I think even John Major was on the 'left' of the Conservative party as well. Certainly, though TSE is the most socially liberal Conservative I've encountered. He is fiscally conservative at most.
When people talk about consigning the Labour party to the dustbin of history, I always wonder what they think will come next after that. Do they feel that centre-right parties should be only type of political party on the ballot? Or, do they desire another centre-left party to emerge that isn't Labour?
You must have led a very narrow life then if TSE is as socially liberal a conservative as you've run across.
Most Conservatives I know are more socially conservative than he is, particularly as far as subjects such as immigration go. The 'left' of the Conservative party has never come across as representing the vast majority of Conservatives, particularly when we look that the furore gay marriage caused in some quarters.
Why does anyone need to worry about whether Article 50 is revocable? The public has spoken. In a referendum. They have said "Get us out." No going back.
It is a complete side-show, crafted by people desperate to deny democracy.
Over 100 comments in to the thread before Mark gets it. Nail. Head.
He is going to replace Yellen with a loyalist to control the printing press.
Knowing the penchant of Trump appointing the people who want to get rid of their own position, I say he is going to appoint Ron Paul as FED chief or something (Herman Cain comes to mind too).
I might be trolling Y0kel a bit, but I wouldn't be surprised if Assange gets the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Trump for his services to the Republican Party at some point.
I doubt it can be stopped once invoked and nor should it be. The majority of voters made their decision to Brexit, they have made their bed and can now lie in it
And the pound falls a cent against the dollar almost immediately.
unsurprising
Of course not. One benefit of the recent devaluation in Sterling should be a sufficient dose of inflation next year to get UK interest rates off the floor - which should start to fix the stagnation that's occurred in the financial system since 2009. Even half a percent raise would be useful, even if my mortgage goes up by a few quid as a result.
I think HYUFD's characterisation of TSE's politics is unfair. If Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine can be Tories, so can TSE. I think even John Major was on the 'left' of the Conservative party as well. Certainly, though TSE is the most socially liberal Conservative I've encountered. He is fiscally conservative at most.
When people talk about consigning the Labour party to the dustbin of history, I always wonder what they think will come next after that. Do they feel that centre-right parties should be only type of political party on the ballot? Or, do they desire another centre-left party to emerge that isn't Labour?
If they were joining a political party today Clarke and Heseltine would likely join the LDs not the Tories so I don't think that disproves the point. John Major supported grammar schools, unlike TSE. The best thing to happen in UK politics would be for a split, with Labour breaking up with the Blairites joining the LDs along with Cameroons like TSE, leaving the Corbynite rump on the traditional left along with perhaps the Greens and the Tories on the centre-right and UKIP the hard right
The most interesting question is whether the rest of the EU would want Article 50 to be potentially revocable unilaterally by Britain. My sense is that the answer is "probably not".
Not unilaterally by Britain, but they might want it to be revocable by themselves. They have made it difficult for either. Funnily enough, Article 50 makes leaving the EU easy if you don't care about the deal you get.
Questions for PB Leavers.
Article 50 probably makes it easy for the UK to leave the EU with no Freedom of Movement and no ECJ but with very little else in the deal, so we would get tariff and non-tariff barriers on goods and services.
This would look to me a lot like failure, but would you agree? Would you be satisfied with Theresa May if she came back with that kind of arrangement?
Is this news ? Martin McGuiness is the Deputy Leader of Sinn Fein. He had lunch with the Queen. Should she be ashamed ? Should she abdicate ?
Jayne Fisher, whoever she is, probably was not even born when the troubles started in NI. I don't know.
The Queen probably didn't want to start the troubles again by refusing to meet him. I doubt she would employ him or have him in the office though.
The Queen had no option but to act on the advice of her Ministers.
Corbyn, on the other hand, has a choice. He was on the side of the terrorists. He wanted them to win and he voted against one of the agreements reached to try and end the Troubles. (This last comment is directed at Surbiton, who doesn't seem to understand the difference between what HMQ has to do and what the LoTo chooses to do.)
The Queen can use the Royal Prerogative. If she had strong views, she would have expressed them. She isn't a wilting violet.
This discussion of Corbyn appointing some Sinn Fein staffer is a bit desperate. There are far better grounds for criticising Corbyn that would gain more traction than this niche whine.
The Queen cannot use the Royal Prerogative. She acts on the advice of her Ministers. There are good reasons for HMQ meeting with a Minister in a part of the country.
But - whether it is a niche whine or not - I still hold the view that for the LoTo to appoint to his staff someone who belongs to a party which sought to use violence for a prolonged period to detach a part of the UK from it, against the wishes of those living there, shows appalling political and moral judgment.
I am half-Irish. I have very little sympathy with Unionism. Unionists treated the minority population in Northern Ireland appallingly and helped create the conditions in which the Provos could flourish. British behavior in NI was dreadful. Some of my earliest political memories were of the Troubles as they exploded onto our screens in the late 1960's and early 1970's.
But the IRA stained the cause of Irish nationalism with the blood they so willingly shed; they made life for Irishmen living in England (like my father) harder than it needed to be; they defamed the Irish cause. And neither they - nor their willing appeasers - like Corbyn should be allowed to forget it.
We have reconciliation now. But it was not because of people like Corbyn but despite him. Reconciliation is a good thing. But it should not stop some clear-sighted moral appreciation of what people like Corbyn were doing in supporting those who were attacking British citizens. He wanted such people to win. There is nothing niche or old hat about having a LoTo who thinks like that.
I think HYUFD's characterisation of TSE's politics is unfair. If Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine can be Tories, so can TSE. I think even John Major was on the 'left' of the Conservative party as well. Certainly, though TSE is the most socially liberal Conservative I've encountered. He is fiscally conservative at most.
When people talk about consigning the Labour party to the dustbin of history, I always wonder what they think will come next after that. Do they feel that centre-right parties should be only type of political party on the ballot? Or, do they desire another centre-left party to emerge that isn't Labour?
If they were joining a political party today Clarke and Heseltine would likely join the LDs not the Tories so I don't think that disproves the point. John Major supported grammar schools, unlike TSE. The best thing to happen in UK politics would be for a split, with Labour breaking up with the Blairites joining the LDs along with Cameroons like TSE, leaving the Corbynite rump on the traditional left along with perhaps the Greens and the Tories on the centre-right and UKIP the hard right
I don't agree that Clarke and Heseltine would join the LDs. They could have joined the Liberal party when they were younger, but didn't.
I think HYUFD's characterisation of TSE's politics is unfair. If Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine can be Tories, so can TSE. I think even John Major was on the 'left' of the Conservative party as well. Certainly, though TSE is the most socially liberal Conservative I've encountered. He is fiscally conservative at most.
When people talk about consigning the Labour party to the dustbin of history, I always wonder what they think will come next after that. Do they feel that centre-right parties should be only type of political party on the ballot? Or, do they desire another centre-left party to emerge that isn't Labour?
If they were joining a political party today Clarke and Heseltine would likely join the LDs not the Tories so I don't think that disproves the point. John Major supported grammar schools, unlike TSE. The best thing to happen in UK politics would be for a split, with Labour breaking up with the Blairites joining the LDs along with Cameroons like TSE, leaving the Corbynite rump on the traditional left along with perhaps the Greens and the Tories on the centre-right and UKIP the hard right
"with perhaps the Greens and the Tories on the centre-right"
Well you could argue for that if Zac Goldsmith was a Green.
But otherwise Blairism is not a popular thing in the past 10 years, perhaps sometime people will look nostalgic for the Blair-Brown years along with bell bottom trousers.
And the pound falls a cent against the dollar almost immediately.
1 US Dollar equals 0.95 Euro
#Str0nk
The Euro has lost 6% against the dollar in the last ten weeks, it now wouldn't be surprising to see them cross over early in the new year. Was nearly $1.60/€ at one point a few years back!
And the pound falls a cent against the dollar almost immediately.
1 US Dollar equals 0.95 Euro
#Str0nk
The Euro has lost 6% against the dollar in the last ten weeks, it now wouldn't be surprising to see them cross over early in the new year. Was nearly $1.60/€ at one point a few years back!
No, there is a hard floor of $1.05 which the ECB seems determined to defend. It was tested a couple of weeks ago and it held.
I think HYUFD's characterisation of TSE's politics is unfair. If Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine can be Tories, so can TSE. I think even John Major was on the 'left' of the Conservative party as well. Certainly, though TSE is the most socially liberal Conservative I've encountered. He is fiscally conservative at most.
When people talk about consigning the Labour party to the dustbin of history, I always wonder what they think will come next after that. Do they feel that centre-right parties should be only type of political party on the ballot? Or, do they desire another centre-left party to emerge that isn't Labour?
If they were joining a political party today Clarke and Heseltine would likely join the LDs not the Tories so I don't think that disproves the point. John Major supported grammar schools, unlike TSE. The best thing to happen in UK politics would be for a split, with Labour breaking up with the Blairites joining the LDs along with Cameroons like TSE, leaving the Corbynite rump on the traditional left along with perhaps the Greens and the Tories on the centre-right and UKIP the hard right
I don't agree that Clarke and Heseltine would join the LDs. They could have joined the Liberal party when they were younger, but didn't.
When they were younger the Tory Party was pro European, they were in a party led by Ted Heath for starters, it is a totally different beast today. FPTP is the only thing keeping pro-EU Tories in the party and Blairites in Labour rather than joining with the Liberals, if we had electoral reform we would have a much more genuine choice as well as fairer representation for UKIP and the Greens
And the pound falls a cent against the dollar almost immediately.
1 US Dollar equals 0.95 Euro
#Str0nk
The Euro has lost 6% against the dollar in the last ten weeks, it now wouldn't be surprising to see them cross over early in the new year. Was nearly $1.60/€ at one point a few years back!
The europeans should be a bit weary of those currency movements, Trump is the biggest loose cannon in world history, he could accuse the Germans of currency manipulation even if it's not true (although the Euro is by itself an instrument of currency manipulation) if he sees a TV report.
I think HYUFD's characterisation of TSE's politics is unfair. If Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine can be Tories, so can TSE. I think even John Major was on the 'left' of the Conservative party as well. Certainly, though TSE is the most socially liberal Conservative I've encountered. He is fiscally conservative at most.
When people talk about consigning the Labour party to the dustbin of history, I always wonder what they think will come next after that. Do they feel that centre-right parties should be only type of political party on the ballot? Or, do they desire another centre-left party to emerge that isn't Labour?
If they were joining a political party today Clarke and Heseltine would likely join the LDs not the Tories so I don't think that disproves the point. John Major supported grammar schools, unlike TSE. The best thing to happen in UK politics would be for a split, with Labour breaking up with the Blairites joining the LDs along with Cameroons like TSE, leaving the Corbynite rump on the traditional left along with perhaps the Greens and the Tories on the centre-right and UKIP the hard right
"with perhaps the Greens and the Tories on the centre-right"
Well you could argue for that if Zac Goldsmith was a Green.
But otherwise Blairism is not a popular thing in the past 10 years, perhaps sometime people will look nostalgic for the Blair-Brown years along with bell bottom trousers.
Nonetheless there are still a number of adherents to Blairism and Farron has been the only major party leader singing Blair's praises, something Corbyn would not be seen dead doing and Cameron largely continued the Blair agenda when he was in coalition with the LDs
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
As noted downthread, she acts under advice from her ministers. What better way to defuse a probably extremely awkward situation than with a few jokes.
The IRA murdered her husband's uncle. She has been Queen for over sixty years. Most ministers weren't born when she became Queen. I'm sure she was closely consulted on this matter and not simply told what to do. She decided to shake hands with McGuinness. Time to move on.
I must say that several contributors to this board who I greatly admire for their well argued well written contributions lose a little bit of credibility when they obsess over Corbyn and Sinn Fein. They are flogging a very dead horse.
What's dead are the people the IRA killed, the people who have been disappeared, the injured who are still living with their injuries and pain to this day and the families. Just because NI has vanished from our screens and someone can get invited to a state banquet does not mean that the effects of 30 years of violence have gone.
Corbyn's choices say much about his default assumptions, about the sort of person he is, about the judgment he has, all of them relevant to the question of whether he is fit to be leader of the opposition and of what is - or should be - and certainly was a great party, whether he is fit to be a possible PM. It may be an obsession to some but those questions are, IMO anyway, highly relevant to the state of our politics today. Without a credible opposition we do not have a well functioning Parliamentary system of government.
And the pound falls a cent against the dollar almost immediately.
1 US Dollar equals 0.95 Euro
#Str0nk
The Euro has lost 6% against the dollar in the last ten weeks, it now wouldn't be surprising to see them cross over early in the new year. Was nearly $1.60/€ at one point a few years back!
No, there is a hard floor of $1.05 which the ECB seems determined to defend. It was tested a couple of weeks ago and it held.
Yes, it held up a couple of weeks ago, but the ECB are going to quickly run out of options defending the Euro against rising US interest rates and increasing Eurozone uncertainty. I think a reasonably safe prediction for 2017 is that the Euro will finish the year well below parity with the dollar - say 90c.
I think HYUFD's characterisation of TSE's politics is unfair. If Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine can be Tories, so can TSE. I think even John Major was on the 'left' of the Conservative party as well. Certainly, though TSE is the most socially liberal Conservative I've encountered. He is fiscally conservative at most.
When people talk about consigning the Labour party to the dustbin of history, I always wonder what they think will come next after that. Do they feel that centre-right parties should be only type of political party on the ballot? Or, do they desire another centre-left party to emerge that isn't Labour?
If they were joining a political party today Clarke and Heseltine would likely join the LDs not the Tories so I don't think that disproves the point. John Major supported grammar schools, unlike TSE. The best thing to happen in UK politics would be for a split, with Labour breaking up with the Blairites joining the LDs along with Cameroons like TSE, leaving the Corbynite rump on the traditional left along with perhaps the Greens and the Tories on the centre-right and UKIP the hard right
I don't agree that Clarke and Heseltine would join the LDs. They could have joined the Liberal party when they were younger, but didn't.
When they were younger the Tory Party was pro European, they were in a party led by Ted Heath for starters, it is a totally different beast today. FPTP is the only thing keeping pro-EU Tories in the party and Blairites in Labour rather than joining with the Liberals, if we had electoral reform we would have a much more genuine choice as well as fairer representation for UKIP and the Greens
One-nation Tories were a part of the party then, and they still are now, as far as I can see.
but but but ... To find out would mean asking experts, and what do they know about anything? We've managed to get this far without knowing what the hell we're doing and where it might lead. Why on earth do we need any actual facts now? Especially when we've got Leadsom, Fox and Davis on the case. Not to mention Rees-Mogg and IDS on the back benches. And that Mr Farage.
Surely this only matters if there is any chance that the UK might want to change its mind. And that is looking less likely by the day. Already the infantile behaviour of some of the EU Spokesmen is moving us from a soft Brexit to a hard one. Once they have really pissed us off the question will be whether we bother with a deal at all.
I think HYUFD's characterisation of TSE's politics is unfair. If Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine can be Tories, so can TSE. I think even John Major was on the 'left' of the Conservative party as well. Certainly, though TSE is the most socially liberal Conservative I've encountered. He is fiscally conservative at most.
When people talk about consigning the Labour party to the dustbin of history, I always wonder what they think will come next after that. Do they feel that centre-right parties should be only type of political party on the ballot? Or, do they desire another centre-left party to emerge that isn't Labour?
If they were joining a political party today Clarke and Heseltine would likely join the LDs not the Tories so I don't think that disproves the point. John Major supported grammar schools, unlike TSE. The best thing to happen in UK politics would be for a split, with Labour breaking up with the Blairites joining the LDs along with Cameroons like TSE, leaving the Corbynite rump on the traditional left along with perhaps the Greens and the Tories on the centre-right and UKIP the hard right
I don't agree that Clarke and Heseltine would join the LDs. They could have joined the Liberal party when they were younger, but didn't.
When they were younger the Tory Party was pro European, they were in a party led by Ted Heath for starters, it is a totally different beast today. FPTP is the only thing keeping pro-EU Tories in the party and Blairites in Labour rather than joining with the Liberals, if we had electoral reform we would have a much more genuine choice as well as fairer representation for UKIP and the Greens
One-nation Tories were a part of the party then, and they still are now, as far as I can see.
Depends how you define 'one nation' pro EEC/EU Tories are almost extinct as a species within the Tories now following Brexit
I think HYUFD's characterisation of TSE's politics is unfair. If Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine can be Tories, so can TSE. I think even John Major was on the 'left' of the Conservative party as well. Certainly, though TSE is the most socially liberal Conservative I've encountered. He is fiscally conservative at most.
When people talk about consigning the Labour party to the dustbin of history, I always wonder what they think will come next after that. Do they feel that centre-right parties should be only type of political party on the ballot? Or, do they desire another centre-left party to emerge that isn't Labour?
If they were joining a political party today Clarke and Heseltine would likely join the LDs not the Tories so I don't think that disproves the point. John Major supported grammar schools, unlike TSE. The best thing to happen in UK politics would be for a split, with Labour breaking up with the Blairites joining the LDs along with Cameroons like TSE, leaving the Corbynite rump on the traditional left along with perhaps the Greens and the Tories on the centre-right and UKIP the hard right
I don't agree that Clarke and Heseltine would join the LDs. They could have joined the Liberal party when they were younger, but didn't.
When they were younger the Tory Party was pro European, they were in a party led by Ted Heath for starters, it is a totally different beast today. FPTP is the only thing keeping pro-EU Tories in the party and Blairites in Labour rather than joining with the Liberals, if we had electoral reform we would have a much more genuine choice as well as fairer representation for UKIP and the Greens
One-nation Tories were a part of the party then, and they still are now, as far as I can see.
Depends how you define 'one nation' pro EEC/EU Tories are almost extinct as a species within the Tories now following Brexit
I'd say socially liberal as well as pro-EU. Sure, pro-EU Tories are a small number, but I think a sizeable amount are socially liberal.
@PolhomeEditor: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed to senior Labour MPs tonight that Sinn Fein staffer Jayne Fisher will be working in his office from next month.
this is one of those false news stories, planted to see how gullible we are.
I think HYUFD's characterisation of TSE's politics is unfair. If Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine can be Tories, so can TSE. I think even John Major was on the 'left' of the Conservative party as well. Certainly, though TSE is the most socially liberal Conservative I've encountered. He is fiscally conservative at most.
When people talk about consigning the Labour party to the dustbin of history, I always wonder what they think will come next after that. Do they feel that centre-right parties should be only type of political party on the ballot? Or, do they desire another centre-left party to emerge that isn't Labour?
If they were joining a political party today Clarke and Heseltine would likely join the LDs not the Tories so I don't think that disproves the point. John Major supported grammar schools, unlike TSE. The best thing to happen in UK politics would be for a split, with Labour breaking up with the Blairites joining the LDs along with Cameroons like TSE, leaving the Corbynite rump on the traditional left along with perhaps the Greens and the Tories on the centre-right and UKIP the hard right
I don't agree that Clarke and Heseltine would join the LDs. They could have joined the Liberal party when they were younger, but didn't.
When they were younger the Tory Party was pro European, they were in a party led by Ted Heath for starters, it is a totally different beast today. FPTP is the only thing keeping pro-EU Tories in the party and Blairites in Labour rather than joining with the Liberals, if we had electoral reform we would have a much more genuine choice as well as fairer representation for UKIP and the Greens
One-nation Tories were a part of the party then, and they still are now, as far as I can see.
Yes they are. The poster you are replying to is nothing if not over-confident in his opinions.
Social liberalism has little to do with One Nation, that is more about being patrician and centrist on economic matters and originally went back to Disraeli's phrase that 'the Palace is unsafe while the cottage is unhappy' but most Tories are reasonably socially liberal now, those who really opposed gay marriage shifted to UKIP. If a Tory supports the EU and opposes grammar schools though, they really have more in common with the LDs than the present Tory Party
I think HYUFD's characterisation of TSE's politics is unfair. If Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine can be Tories, so can TSE. I think even John Major was on the 'left' of the Conservative party as well. Certainly, though TSE is the most socially liberal Conservative I've encountered. He is fiscally conservative at most.
When people talk about consigning the Labour party to the dustbin of history, I always wonder what they think will come next after that. Do they feel that centre-right parties should be only type of political party on the ballot? Or, do they desire another centre-left party to emerge that isn't Labour?
If they were joining a political party today Clarke and Heseltine would likely join the LDs not the Tories so I don't think that disproves the point. John Major supported grammar schools, unlike TSE. The best thing to happen in UK politics would be for a split, with Labour breaking up with the Blairites joining the LDs along with Cameroons like TSE, leaving the Corbynite rump on the traditional left along with perhaps the Greens and the Tories on the centre-right and UKIP the hard right
I don't agree that Clarke and Heseltine would join the LDs. They could have joined the Liberal party when they were younger, but didn't.
Heseltine was - indeed is - a National Liberal.Prior to 1931 he would have been a Lloyd George supporter .
Whether Ryan gets re-elected in January is irrelevant to whether the GOP will hold onto the House in the 2018 mid-term elections which was the point I was making
Yes please. And higher interest rates( (at last Ms Yellen at last, and tell Carney to get cracking too!). Both do me a power of good and were one of the happy consequences I was hoping as part of the June 23rd fallout.
J124 Indeed, Heseltine was only really a Tory in the context of the Macmillan and Heath led party, as shown by his opposition to Thatcher. I doubt he would have been entirely comfortable in the party of Baldwin or Salisbury either
Whether Ryan gets re-elected in January is irrelevant to whether the GOP will hold onto the House in the 2018 mid-term elections which was the point I was making
Ah okay. For some reason I though the mid-terms were in 2017.
I seem to remember a very recent poll that had Blair as the most unpopular british politician in the country, with a net fav. of around -60 or -50 if I remember correctly.
@cyclefree "It may be an obsession to some but those questions are, IMO anyway, highly relevant to the state of our politics today. Without a credible opposition we do not have a well functioning Parliamentary system of government. "
Corbyn's relationship with Sinn Fein has nothing to do with him failing to lead a credible opposition and everything to do with the fact that he is really crap at leadership.
Comments
Anyway, I must be off.
The Supreme Court judgement will be out in the new year, probably against the government - but there will be authoritative legal ruling on the subject of the steps needed to invoke Art 50.
Sans Millar this case may well have become the only legal opinion on the entire matter. And that would be trickier for the Gov't if the matter came down from the ECJ... This way round we have what should be the ultimate arbiter of British law lawing first.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/queen-jokes-with-sinn-fein-politician-martin-mcguinness-that-shes-still-alive-a7107056.html
A50 simply has to be the no return point on the rollercoaster.
We can rejoin in 20-40 years time say if that is the view of the country at the time, but we must leave first !
Corporate uselessness in all it's awe and boredom.
I really hope there are a couple of books covering the campaign published soon like there was for the EU referendum.
It is a complete side-show, crafted by people desperate to deny democracy.
I can see Labour's slogan at the next election: "Vote Labour - go on, we dare you!" https://t.co/FwgCN7zxC7
This discussion of Corbyn appointing some Sinn Fein staffer is a bit desperate. There are far better grounds for criticising Corbyn that would gain more traction than this niche whine.
If it is good enough for the Queen, it is good enough for Corbyn.
That will be the line. You guys can go into a corner and suck whatever you want to.
I think HYUFD's characterisation of TSE's politics is unfair. If Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine can be Tories, so can TSE. I think even John Major was on the 'left' of the Conservative party as well. Certainly, though TSE is the most socially liberal Conservative I've encountered. He is fiscally conservative at most.
When people talk about consigning the Labour party to the dustbin of history, I always wonder what they think will come next after that. Do they feel that centre-right parties should be only type of political party on the ballot? Or, do they desire another centre-left party to emerge that isn't Labour?
Nail. Head.
Just why DO people ALWAYS film in portrait mode with their mobile phones ?
Not in this. Corbyn is a misfit and the very concept of the United Kingdom is distasteful to him. This is yet another manifestation of that.
I must say that several contributors to this board who I greatly admire for their well argued well written contributions lose a little bit of credibility when they obsess over Corbyn and Sinn Fein. They are flogging a very dead horse.
I will have another look on Amazon.com and see if there is anything lined up for publication.
Although Corbyn looks squeaky clean, I believe going out staging rallies and talking to people all the time with a strong social media and anti-media message can work.
Corbyn is at his best when he is campaigning, when he is not campaigning he allows others to throw mud at him with no punch-back.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38323037?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central
So, in looking for precedents, I wonder if there's something to be investigated on precedents from accession states there.
No, I'm not doing it now. Dinner is more important.
Knowing the penchant of Trump appointing the people who want to get rid of their own position, I say he is going to appoint Ron Paul as FED chief or something (Herman Cain comes to mind too).
On meeting HMQ McGuiness asked "How are you?"
HMQ's respinse: "Can't complain. I'm still alive."
Beautiful!
https://twitter.com/williamjordann/status/808470125661851648
https://twitter.com/williamjordann/status/809069737879674888
So now Wikileaks and Putin are perceived by Republican voters as american patriots for going against Hillary.
I might be trolling Y0kel a bit, but I wouldn't be surprised if Assange gets the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Trump for his services to the Republican Party at some point.
Crazier things have happened.
0.95 Euro
#Str0nk
Article 50 probably makes it easy for the UK to leave the EU with no Freedom of Movement and no ECJ but with very little else in the deal, so we would get tariff and non-tariff barriers on goods and services.
This would look to me a lot like failure, but would you agree? Would you be satisfied with Theresa May if she came back with that kind of arrangement?
Well you could argue for that if Zac Goldsmith was a Green.
But otherwise Blairism is not a popular thing in the past 10 years, perhaps sometime people will look nostalgic for the Blair-Brown years along with bell bottom trousers.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trump-praises-paul-ryan-wisconsin-compares-fine/story?id=44176636
What's dead are the people the IRA killed, the people who have been disappeared, the injured who are still living with their injuries and pain to this day and the families. Just because NI has vanished from our screens and someone can get invited to a state banquet does not mean that the effects of 30 years of violence have gone.
Corbyn's choices say much about his default assumptions, about the sort of person he is, about the judgment he has, all of them relevant to the question of whether he is fit to be leader of the opposition and of what is - or should be - and certainly was a great party, whether he is fit to be a possible PM. It may be an obsession to some but those questions are, IMO anyway, highly relevant to the state of our politics today. Without a credible opposition we do not have a well functioning Parliamentary system of government.
To find out would mean asking experts, and what do they know about anything? We've managed to get this far without knowing what the hell we're doing and where it might lead. Why on earth do we need any actual facts now? Especially when we've got Leadsom, Fox and Davis on the case. Not to mention Rees-Mogg and IDS on the back benches. And that Mr Farage.
At least, Labour members must wish it was.
Can post but have no "reply" to another post button? Not seen that before.....
I seem to remember a very recent poll that had Blair as the most unpopular british politician in the country, with a net fav. of around -60 or -50 if I remember correctly.
Blairism is not that popular these days.
"Test
Can post but have no "reply" to another post button? Not seen that before..."
Me too.
@cyclefree "It may be an obsession to some but those questions are, IMO anyway, highly relevant to the state of our politics today. Without a credible opposition we do not have a well functioning Parliamentary system of government. "
Corbyn's relationship with Sinn Fein has nothing to do with him failing to lead a credible opposition and everything to do with the fact that he is really crap at leadership.