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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Saved by der Bellen but what will the Italian referendum bring

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  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    Dixie said:

    Dixie said:

    Hollands and Renzi resigning in same week. Democrats lost a month ago. Left going backwards. Superb.


    But! But! But!

    The President of Austria.......

    (See the Grauniad Front Page....)
    yes, Adolf Hitler lover only got 47% of vote. rejoice!!
    Hey, down from 49% last time. Or more, depending on irregularities.
  • Options

    RobD said:

    Say what you like about Dave, but his resignation speech was concise.

    Take note Matteo Renzi

    Perhaps Davide Camerone could be drafted in to take over?
    Dave's enjoying his retirement
    Is he going to go back into politics? I'm sure May would give him a peerage.
    Nope, he's done with politics.

    He might do a Lord Home, and be Foreign Secretary when George Osborne becomes PM.
    Isn't 70 a bit old for Foreign Secretary?

    Though with increasing retirement age, possibly not.....
    Within in the next few years
    Yes dear.

    Is that two sugars in your tea?
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Say what you like about Dave, but his resignation speech was concise.

    Take note Matteo Renzi

    Perhaps Davide Camerone could be drafted in to take over?
    Dave's enjoying his retirement
    Is he going to go back into politics? I'm sure May would give him a peerage.
    Nope, he's done with politics.

    He might do a Lord Home, and be Foreign Secretary when George Osborne becomes PM.
    It would be a shame for young pms to be done with public service when they'll be around so long. I believe the governor of California was both the youngest in 100 years and the oldest, such was the gaps in his terms.
    He's a family man, he's spending the next few years focusing on his family.

    As an aside, I've finally finished writing my David Cameron legacy thread. I started writing it in June.

    It'll be controversial and surprising in equal parts.
  • Options
    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    MikeK said:

    With Renzi, a Merkel puppet gone, will there now be an Italexit?

    The question is not leaving the EU but leaving the Euro. Ironically that would have been easier if Yes won.
  • Options

    RobD said:

    Say what you like about Dave, but his resignation speech was concise.

    Take note Matteo Renzi

    Perhaps Davide Camerone could be drafted in to take over?
    Dave's enjoying his retirement
    Is he going to go back into politics? I'm sure May would give him a peerage.
    Nope, he's done with politics.

    He might do a Lord Home, and be Foreign Secretary when George Osborne becomes PM.
    Isn't 70 a bit old for Foreign Secretary?

    Though with increasing retirement age, possibly not.....
    Within in the next few years
    Yes dear.

    Is that two sugars in your tea?
    I'm not a tea drinker.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    On Twitter @SeanT has just summed up the significance of another Italian PM's departure in colourful terms.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Dixie said:

    Dixie said:

    Hollands and Renzi resigning in same week. Democrats lost a month ago. Left going backwards. Superb.


    But! But! But!

    The President of Austria.......

    (See the Grauniad Front Page....)
    yes, Adolf Hitler lover only got 47% of vote. rejoice!!
    Currently on 48.3% without postals.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Say what you like about Dave, but his resignation speech was concise.

    Take note Matteo Renzi

    Perhaps Davide Camerone could be drafted in to take over?
    Dave's enjoying his retirement
    Is he going to go back into politics? I'm sure May would give him a peerage.
    Nope, he's done with politics.

    He might do a Lord Home, and be Foreign Secretary when George Osborne becomes PM.
    It would be a shame for young pms to be done with public service when they'll be around so long. I believe the governor of California was both the youngest in 100 years and the oldest, such was the gaps in his terms.
    He's a family man, he's spending the next few years focusing on his family.

    As an aside, I've finally finished writing my David Cameron legacy thread. I started writing it in June.

    It'll be controversial and surprising in equal parts.
    Tough situation, promising signs, overshadowed by the end, I would imagine the summary.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    MikeK said:

    With Renzi, a Merkel puppet gone, will there now be an Italexit?

    Merkel's lost Cameron, Hollande and Renzi all in six months
    Merkel tacitly campaigned for Sarkozy in the election Hollande won so it's not very accurate to say he was Merkel's man.
    More than Le Pen will be.....
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pauly said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Italian Banks are going to take a bath tomorrow morning. There will be a great strain on the whole Euro system.

    They are already down 95% even before the referendum.
    If they require a bailout, can Italy even sustain that level of sovereign debt?
    The Italian national debt is roughly €2.5 trillion. Bailing out the banks would put it up less than 2%. Alternstively they could be allowed to fail, tbough that seemed to cause a few problems in the last decade.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Say what you like about Dave, but his resignation speech was concise.

    Take note Matteo Renzi

    Perhaps Davide Camerone could be drafted in to take over?
    Dave's enjoying his retirement
    Is he going to go back into politics? I'm sure May would give him a peerage.
    Nope, he's done with politics.

    He might do a Lord Home, and be Foreign Secretary when George Osborne becomes PM.
    It would be a shame for young pms to be done with public service when they'll be around so long. I believe the governor of California was both the youngest in 100 years and the oldest, such was the gaps in his terms.
    He's a family man, he's spending the next few years focusing on his family.

    As an aside, I've finally finished writing my David Cameron legacy thread. I started writing it in June.

    It'll be controversial and surprising in equal parts.
    Cameron's legacy has been and gone in the six months it has taken you to write it!
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Say what you like about Dave, but his resignation speech was concise.

    Take note Matteo Renzi

    Perhaps Davide Camerone could be drafted in to take over?
    Dave's enjoying his retirement
    Is he going to go back into politics? I'm sure May would give him a peerage.
    Nope, he's done with politics.

    He might do a Lord Home, and be Foreign Secretary when George Osborne becomes PM.
    It would be a shame for young pms to be done with public service when they'll be around so long. I believe the governor of California was both the youngest in 100 years and the oldest, such was the gaps in his terms.
    He's a family man, he's spending the next few years focusing on his family.

    As an aside, I've finally finished writing my David Cameron legacy thread. I started writing it in June.

    It'll be controversial and surprising in equal parts.
    Cameron's legacy has been and gone in the six months it has taken you to write it!
    He demonstrated coalition politics can work, but the people won't reward it.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    nunu said:

    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Who will be PM if Renzi resigns?

    Berlusconi? :D
    Trumps slightly dodgy uncle? Yeah, why not...
    "slightly".
    In comparison with the Trumpster anyway...
  • Options

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Say what you like about Dave, but his resignation speech was concise.

    Take note Matteo Renzi

    Perhaps Davide Camerone could be drafted in to take over?
    Dave's enjoying his retirement
    Is he going to go back into politics? I'm sure May would give him a peerage.
    Nope, he's done with politics.

    He might do a Lord Home, and be Foreign Secretary when George Osborne becomes PM.
    It would be a shame for young pms to be done with public service when they'll be around so long. I believe the governor of California was both the youngest in 100 years and the oldest, such was the gaps in his terms.
    He's a family man, he's spending the next few years focusing on his family.

    As an aside, I've finally finished writing my David Cameron legacy thread. I started writing it in June.

    It'll be controversial and surprising in equal parts.
    Cameron's legacy has been and gone in the six months it has taken you to write it!
    It has been a long and painful process.

    Oh man, when I took that call at 7.45 am on June 24th telling me Dave was going to quit, it is seared on my mind.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited December 2016
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Say what you like about Dave, but his resignation speech was concise.

    Take note Matteo Renzi

    Perhaps Davide Camerone could be drafted in to take over?
    Dave's enjoying his retirement
    Is he going to go back into politics? I'm sure May would give him a peerage.
    Nope, he's done with politics.

    He might do a Lord Home, and be Foreign Secretary when George Osborne becomes PM.
    It would be a shame for young pms to be done with public service when they'll be around so long. I believe the governor of California was both the youngest in 100 years and the oldest, such was the gaps in his terms.
    He's a family man, he's spending the next few years focusing on his family.

    As an aside, I've finally finished writing my David Cameron legacy thread. I started writing it in June.

    It'll be controversial and surprising in equal parts.
    Cameron's legacy has been and gone in the six months it has taken you to write it!
    He demonstrated coalition politics can work, but the people won't reward it.
    People never reward coalition politics, especially if you are the Junior partner.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Say what you like about Dave, but his resignation speech was concise.

    Take note Matteo Renzi

    Perhaps Davide Camerone could be drafted in to take over?
    Dave's enjoying his retirement
    Is he going to go back into politics? I'm sure May would give him a peerage.
    Nope, he's done with politics.

    He might do a Lord Home, and be Foreign Secretary when George Osborne becomes PM.
    It would be a shame for young pms to be done with public service when they'll be around so long. I believe the governor of California was both the youngest in 100 years and the oldest, such was the gaps in his terms.
    He's a family man, he's spending the next few years focusing on his family.

    As an aside, I've finally finished writing my David Cameron legacy thread. I started writing it in June.

    It'll be controversial and surprising in equal parts.
    Cameron's legacy has been and gone in the six months it has taken you to write it!
    He demonstrated coalition politics can work, but the people won't reward it.
    I don't think we learned anything much about Coalition politics in the modern age. We were reminded however that those who try to be All Things To All Men will come a cropper.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2016
    More bloody fake news....this time Washington Post been caught at it.

    Are We Seeing Propaganda About Russian Propaganda?

    http://m.slashdot.org/story/319577
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,015
    A good choice for Sky to have Susie Boniface on with Julia Hartley-Brewer. She dealt well with JHB's ridiculous promise to riot over Brexit.
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    GIN1138 said:

    MikeK said:

    With Renzi, a Merkel puppet gone, will there now be an Italexit?

    Harder for them to do an Italexit because they are tied up with the Euro?
    Quitaly is much more elegant.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,129

    Pauly said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Italian Banks are going to take a bath tomorrow morning. There will be a great strain on the whole Euro system.

    They are already down 95% even before the referendum.
    If they require a bailout, can Italy even sustain that level of sovereign debt?
    The Italian national debt is roughly €2.5 trillion. Bailing out the banks would put it up less than 2%. Alternstively they could be allowed to fail, tbough that seemed to cause a few problems in the last decade.
    Really don't think that is right. 2% of Italian GDP would be less than 40bn euros. No way that is going to be enough to refinance their banks.
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Speedy said:

    Good riddance to bad rubbish.

    Here here.
  • Options
    PaulyPauly Posts: 897

    Pauly said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Italian Banks are going to take a bath tomorrow morning. There will be a great strain on the whole Euro system.

    They are already down 95% even before the referendum.
    If they require a bailout, can Italy even sustain that level of sovereign debt?
    The Italian national debt is roughly €2.5 trillion. Bailing out the banks would put it up less than 2%. Alternstively they could be allowed to fail, tbough that seemed to cause a few problems in the last decade.
    Bloomberg cites "proposals to tackle the €360bn of problematic loans" - Assuming they deal with half of this amount, isn't that about a 7% increase in national debt? (my logic may be rubbish)
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Say what you like about Dave, but his resignation speech was concise.

    Take note Matteo Renzi

    Perhaps Davide Camerone could be drafted in to take over?
    Dave's enjoying his retirement
    Is he going to go back into politics? I'm sure May would give him a peerage.
    Nope, he's done with politics.

    He might do a Lord Home, and be Foreign Secretary when George Osborne becomes PM.
    It would be a shame for young pms to be done with public service when they'll be around so long. I believe the governor of California was both the youngest in 100 years and the oldest, such was the gaps in his terms.
    He's a family man, he's spending the next few years focusing on his family.

    As an aside, I've finally finished writing my David Cameron legacy thread. I started writing it in June.

    It'll be controversial and surprising in equal parts.
    Cameron's legacy has been and gone in the six months it has taken you to write it!
    It has been a long and painful process.

    Oh man, when I took that call at 7.45 am on June 24th telling me Dave was going to quit, it is seared on my mind.
    I remember seeing him at the wreath-laying at the Cenotaph and thinking what a crying shame. "You bloody fool, Cameron, it didn't have to be this way..." He could have owned a 70% Leave vote.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    A good choice for Sky to have Susie Boniface on with Julia Hartley-Brewer. She dealt well with JHB's ridiculous promise to riot over Brexit.

    Was Susie Boniface a name chosen by public vote?
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    A good choice for Sky to have Susie Boniface on with Julia Hartley-Brewer. She dealt well with JHB's ridiculous promise to riot over Brexit.

    Are we watching the same prog?

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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Naples and Sicily are voting 70% No.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,129
    Pauly said:

    Pauly said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Italian Banks are going to take a bath tomorrow morning. There will be a great strain on the whole Euro system.

    They are already down 95% even before the referendum.
    If they require a bailout, can Italy even sustain that level of sovereign debt?
    The Italian national debt is roughly €2.5 trillion. Bailing out the banks would put it up less than 2%. Alternstively they could be allowed to fail, tbough that seemed to cause a few problems in the last decade.
    Bloomberg cites "proposals to tackle the €360bn of problematic loans" - Assuming they deal with half of this amount, isn't that about a 7% increase in national debt? (my logic may be rubbish)
    And it won't be just the loans unless there is fairly dynamic action by the ECB. Forcing a resolution of such loans will crystallise a lot of bad debts in the system not just in the banks and it will undermine asset values and hence the security of other loans.

    Greece stretched the ECB to its limits and it was tiny compared to Italy.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,129
    SeanT said:

    The £ is nearly at €1.20.

    Brexit was just, it seems, the beginning.

    So much for the forecasts of a surge in inflation.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pauly said:

    Pauly said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Italian Banks are going to take a bath tomorrow morning. There will be a great strain on the whole Euro system.

    They are already down 95% even before the referendum.
    If they require a bailout, can Italy even sustain that level of sovereign debt?
    The Italian national debt is roughly €2.5 trillion. Bailing out the banks would put it up less than 2%. Alternstively they could be allowed to fail, tbough that seemed to cause a few problems in the last decade.
    Bloomberg cites "proposals to tackle the €360bn of problematic loans" - Assuming they deal with half of this amount, isn't that about a 7% increase in national debt? (my logic may be rubbish)
    RCS1000 reckons the bailout would be €25 to 40 billion. Presumably it is more a matter of recapitalisation than writing off those loans.

    Significant, but not fatal, though the impact on UK banks would not be insignificant.

    I got out of my bank shares a while back, apart from Loyds who seem less exposed to international markets.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    To cap it all; tonight we have President Elect Trump laying the law down to China.
    https://twitter.com/TelegraphNews/status/805554795964600320
    Big falls in the value of the Euro; I'm glad I moved into Dollars last week.

    And Austria may regret very soon the way they voted today.
    https://twitter.com/AfredAlbion/status/805536821044269056
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    AndyJS said:

    Renzi — "In Italian politics nobody ever really loses" according to the BBC translation.

    Only the poor bloody people.

    But they don't count.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    New Zealand PM to resign.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11760656

    Wife told him to go.
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Say what you like about Dave, but his resignation speech was concise.

    Take note Matteo Renzi

    Perhaps Davide Camerone could be drafted in to take over?
    Dave's enjoying his retirement
    Is he going to go back into politics? I'm sure May would give him a peerage.
    Nope, he's done with politics.

    He might do a Lord Home, and be Foreign Secretary when George Osborne becomes PM.
    It would be a shame for young pms to be done with public service when they'll be around so long. I believe the governor of California was both the youngest in 100 years and the oldest, such was the gaps in his terms.
    He's a family man, he's spending the next few years focusing on his family.

    As an aside, I've finally finished writing my David Cameron legacy thread. I started writing it in June.

    It'll be controversial and surprising in equal parts.
    Cameron's legacy has been and gone in the six months it has taken you to write it!
    It has been a long and painful process.

    Oh man, when I took that call at 7.45 am on June 24th telling me Dave was going to quit, it is seared on my mind.
    I remember seeing him at the wreath-laying at the Cenotaph and thinking what a crying shame. "You bloody fool, Cameron, it didn't have to be this way..." He could have owned a 70% Leave vote.
    Yes, but what would he have done with it? However eloquent his speeches prior to GE2015, when it came down to it his heart was clearly not in a Leave situation.

    All credit to him for delivering the referendum. That's a big enough legacy to be going on with.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    edited December 2016
    Pauly said:

    Pauly said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Italian Banks are going to take a bath tomorrow morning. There will be a great strain on the whole Euro system.

    They are already down 95% even before the referendum.
    If they require a bailout, can Italy even sustain that level of sovereign debt?
    The Italian national debt is roughly €2.5 trillion. Bailing out the banks would put it up less than 2%. Alternstively they could be allowed to fail, tbough that seemed to cause a few problems in the last decade.
    Bloomberg cites "proposals to tackle the €360bn of problematic loans" - Assuming they deal with half of this amount, isn't that about a 7% increase in national debt? (my logic may be rubbish)
    Let's imagine you have a 500k mortgage on your house and you can't pay. There is now a 500k problematic loan.

    But it is almost impossible the bank will lose 500k. Even if your property were only worth 250k, and it cost 50k to sell your house, the bank would still only lose 200k - and that's in the circumstance that you had a 200% mortgage.

    If you look at loan loss ratios - i.e. what is actually lost when a loan goes bad - across the developed world, they range from 2% to 20%. The difference being (mostly) the type of debt: credit card and other unsecured personal loans are the worst, then unsecured small business lending, then large company lending, then secured lending (either on inventories, recievables, or property).

    Italy has very little unsecured consumer credit: average outstanding credit card debt is about a tenth of the level of the UK. In addition, the banks have already taken provisions against losses.

    Now, if you believe the Bank of Italy, the cost to the banks of clear-up will be EUR25bn. I think that's low. But even if you assume the number of EUR40bn, it's still chump change, certainly compared to the banking problems we've seen in the UK, the US, Ireland, the Netherlands, Spain, Portugal, or even Germany. The Italian government could bail the whole sector out tomorrow, without worsening its financial situtation meaningfully.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    dr_spyn said:
    A right winger, I think, and an advocate of the TPP.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited December 2016

    dr_spyn said:
    A right winger, I think, and an advocate of the TPP.
    Technocratic Cameroonian.

    He too suffered his own referendum defeat on changing the New Zealand flag for his personal choice.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    DavidL said:

    Pauly said:

    Pauly said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Italian Banks are going to take a bath tomorrow morning. There will be a great strain on the whole Euro system.

    They are already down 95% even before the referendum.
    If they require a bailout, can Italy even sustain that level of sovereign debt?
    The Italian national debt is roughly €2.5 trillion. Bailing out the banks would put it up less than 2%. Alternstively they could be allowed to fail, tbough that seemed to cause a few problems in the last decade.
    Bloomberg cites "proposals to tackle the €360bn of problematic loans" - Assuming they deal with half of this amount, isn't that about a 7% increase in national debt? (my logic may be rubbish)
    And it won't be just the loans unless there is fairly dynamic action by the ECB. Forcing a resolution of such loans will crystallise a lot of bad debts in the system not just in the banks and it will undermine asset values and hence the security of other loans.

    Greece stretched the ECB to its limits and it was tiny compared to Italy.
    It is worth remembering that overall private sector debt levels in Italy are a fraction of what they are in the UK.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited December 2016
    Things have changed:

    https://twitter.com/williamjordann/status/805557012272660480

    It reminds me of a photo of Oct. 1989.

    Only Gorbachev stayed on for an extra 2 years.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2016
    Breaking News — New Zealand PM John Key to resign by next week.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    SeanT said:

    I don't see the Euro surviving, as is, another ten years. Impossible. A hardcore will federalise - Germany, Benelux, probably France and Spain, maybe Austria. The rest will detach.

    Plus the Baltics, Ireland.

    The policy of the FPO was for the Euro to split into Northern and Southern blocs. It would be interesting if the new Italian PM were to go down that route.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    I don't see the Euro surviving, as is, another ten years. Impossible. A hardcore will federalise - Germany, Benelux, probably France and Spain, maybe Austria. The rest will detach.

    Plus the Baltics, Ireland.

    The policy of the FPO was for the Euro to split into Northern and Southern blocs. It would be interesting if the new Italian PM were to go down that route.
    I don't know about Ireland, tax policy is very important to them.
  • Options
    Review of 2016 going to have to be a long show!
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    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Say what you like about Dave, but his resignation speech was concise.

    Take note Matteo Renzi

    Perhaps Davide Camerone could be drafted in to take over?
    Dave's enjoying his retirement
    Is he going to go back into politics? I'm sure May would give him a peerage.
    Nope, he's done with politics.

    He might do a Lord Home, and be Foreign Secretary when George Osborne becomes PM.
    It would be a shame for young pms to be done with public service when they'll be around so long. I believe the governor of California was both the youngest in 100 years and the oldest, such was the gaps in his terms.
    He's a family man, he's spending the next few years focusing on his family.

    As an aside, I've finally finished writing my David Cameron legacy thread. I started writing it in June.

    It'll be controversial and surprising in equal parts.
    Cameron's legacy has been and gone in the six months it has taken you to write it!
    He demonstrated coalition politics can work, but the people won't reward it.
    Yes, Cameron Term 1 could have had a reasonable to good record - ditto Osborne - but both came horrendously unstuck with EURef & Project Fear....
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Speedy said:

    AndyJS said:

    Renzi is probably about 15 years younger than the average Italian voter.

    His only card was that he had young looks to get the youth and female vote.

    Didn't help him this time.
    I always thought he was kind of funny looking, a slightly more handsome Mr. bean.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    I don't see the Euro surviving, as is, another ten years. Impossible. A hardcore will federalise - Germany, Benelux, probably France and Spain, maybe Austria. The rest will detach.

    Plus the Baltics, Ireland.

    The policy of the FPO was for the Euro to split into Northern and Southern blocs. It would be interesting if the new Italian PM were to go down that route.
    I don't know about Ireland, tax policy is very important to them.
    Agreed, but they are also something like +80/-20 on "The Euro has been good for Ireland".
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited December 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    I don't see the Euro surviving, as is, another ten years. Impossible. A hardcore will federalise - Germany, Benelux, probably France and Spain, maybe Austria. The rest will detach.

    Plus the Baltics, Ireland.

    The policy of the FPO was for the Euro to split into Northern and Southern blocs. It would be interesting if the new Italian PM were to go down that route.
    The federaling momentum comes from the mediterranean states; the Baltics and Ireland will increasingly find a southern-dominated federal union unpalatable.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,015
    Speedy said:

    Things have changed:

    It reminds me of a photo of Oct. 1989.

    Only Gorbachev stayed on for an extra 2 years.

    image

    It just underlines Merkel's longevity.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287

    Review of 2016 going to have to be a long show!

    It isn't over yet.
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    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    edited December 2016
    dr_spyn said:
    what an opportunity to post this:
    {No Xmas for John Quays by The Fall)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHFdYYIaEIc
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    Speedy said:

    Things have changed:

    It reminds me of a photo of Oct. 1989.

    Only Gorbachev stayed on for an extra 2 years.

    image

    It just underlines Merkel's longevity.
    and Putin's ;)
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    dr_spyn said:
    Oh well, it all helps to maintain the interest ...
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The next NZ election was due by November 2017. I guess this news is likely to bring it forward to the start of the year.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2016
    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pauly said:

    Pauly said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Italian Banks are going to take a bath tomorrow morning. There will be a great strain on the whole Euro system.

    They are already down 95% even before the referendum.
    If they require a bailout, can Italy even sustain that level of sovereign debt?
    The Italian national debt is roughly €2.5 trillion. Bailing out the banks would put it up less than 2%. Alternstively they could be allowed to fail, tbough that seemed to cause a few problems in the last decade.
    Bloomberg cites "proposals to tackle the €360bn of problematic loans" - Assuming they deal with half of this amount, isn't that about a 7% increase in national debt? (my logic may be rubbish)
    And it won't be just the loans unless there is fairly dynamic action by the ECB. Forcing a resolution of such loans will crystallise a lot of bad debts in the system not just in the banks and it will undermine asset values and hence the security of other loans.

    Greece stretched the ECB to its limits and it was tiny compared to Italy.
    It is worth remembering that overall private sector debt levels in Italy are a fraction of what they are in the UK.
    Italy is pretty fucked tho. You just have to go there to see it. Italy used to have an export sector and a manufacturing sector to envy, but it's all been hollowed out by the Euro. Sunderland now produces more cars than Italy.

    And outside places like Tuscany and Tyrol the infrastructure is stagnant.

    It's a wonderful country to visit, enviable and alluring. But...
    Like France, unable / unwilling to reform for the realities of the modern world.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    I don't see the Euro surviving, as is, another ten years. Impossible. A hardcore will federalise - Germany, Benelux, probably France and Spain, maybe Austria. The rest will detach.

    Plus the Baltics, Ireland.

    The policy of the FPO was for the Euro to split into Northern and Southern blocs. It would be interesting if the new Italian PM were to go down that route.
    That leaves just Italy, Greece and Portugal to detach.

    I can't see it myself. Despite all their problems the Greeks wasnt to stay in the Euro. Depreciating your currency is rarely popular.

    Why would Italians vote to be 30% poorer overnight?
  • Options
    Donald Trump in Zoolander (very briefly), now on Channel 5 :)
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pauly said:

    Pauly said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Italian Banks are going to take a bath tomorrow morning. There will be a great strain on the whole Euro system.

    They are already down 95% even before the referendum.
    If they require a bailout, can Italy even sustain that level of sovereign debt?
    The Italian national debt is roughly €2.5 trillion. Bailing out the banks would put it up less than 2%. Alternstively they could be allowed to fail, tbough that seemed to cause a few problems in the last decade.
    Bloomberg cites "proposals to tackle the €360bn of problematic loans" - Assuming they deal with half of this amount, isn't that about a 7% increase in national debt? (my logic may be rubbish)
    And it won't be just the loans unless there is fairly dynamic action by the ECB. Forcing a resolution of such loans will crystallise a lot of bad debts in the system not just in the banks and it will undermine asset values and hence the security of other loans.

    Greece stretched the ECB to its limits and it was tiny compared to Italy.
    It is worth remembering that overall private sector debt levels in Italy are a fraction of what they are in the UK.
    Italy is pretty fucked tho. You just have to go there to see it. Italy used to have an export sector and a manufacturing sector to envy, but it's all been hollowed out by the Euro. Sunderland now produces more cars than Italy.

    And outside places like Tuscany and Tyrol the infrastructure is stagnant.

    It's a wonderful country to visit, enviable and alluring. But...
    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Donald Trump in Zoolander (very briefly), now on Channel 5 :)

    He is everywhere is he.

    Always lurking in the background of most cultural or historical moments, slowly inching his way to the foreground.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pauly said:

    Pauly said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Italian Banks are going to take a bath tomorrow morning. There will be a great strain on the whole Euro system.

    They are already down 95% even before the referendum.
    If they require a bailout, can Italy even sustain that level of sovereign debt?
    The Italian national debt is roughly €2.5 trillion. Bailing out the banks would put it up less than 2%. Alternstively they could be allowed to fail, tbough that seemed to cause a few problems in the last decade.
    Bloomberg cites "proposals to tackle the €360bn of problematic loans" - Assuming they deal with half of this amount, isn't that about a 7% increase in national debt? (my logic may be rubbish)
    And it won't be just the loans unless there is fairly dynamic action by the ECB. Forcing a resolution of such loans will crystallise a lot of bad debts in the system not just in the banks and it will undermine asset values and hence the security of other loans.

    Greece stretched the ECB to its limits and it was tiny compared to Italy.
    It is worth remembering that overall private sector debt levels in Italy are a fraction of what they are in the UK.
    Italy is pretty fucked tho. You just have to go there to see it. Italy used to have an export sector and a manufacturing sector to envy, but it's all been hollowed out by the Euro. Sunderland now produces more cars than Italy.

    And outside places like Tuscany and Tyrol the infrastructure is stagnant.

    It's a wonderful country to visit, enviable and alluring. But...
    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.
    The Demographics are kept viable by EU migration, with over a million Romanians living there.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pauly said:

    Pauly said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Italian Banks are going to take a bath tomorrow morning. There will be a great strain on the whole Euro system.

    They are already down 95% even before the referendum.
    If they require a bailout, can Italy even sustain that level of sovereign debt?
    The Italian national debt is roughly €2.5 trillion. Bailing out the banks would put it up less than 2%. Alternstively they could be allowed to fail, tbough that seemed to cause a few problems in the last decade.
    Bloomberg cites "proposals to tackle the €360bn of problematic loans" - Assuming they deal with half of this amount, isn't that about a 7% increase in national debt? (my logic may be rubbish)
    And it won't be just the loans unless there is fairly dynamic action by the ECB. Forcing a resolution of such loans will crystallise a lot of bad debts in the system not just in the banks and it will undermine asset values and hence the security of other loans.

    Greece stretched the ECB to its limits and it was tiny compared to Italy.
    It is worth remembering that overall private sector debt levels in Italy are a fraction of what they are in the UK.
    Italy is pretty fucked tho. You just have to go there to see it. Italy used to have an export sector and a manufacturing sector to envy, but it's all been hollowed out by the Euro. Sunderland now produces more cars than Italy.

    And outside places like Tuscany and Tyrol the infrastructure is stagnant.

    It's a wonderful country to visit, enviable and alluring. But...
    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.
    Just to add: If you increase taxes on young Italians to pay for retired ones, then you'll drive the bright young ones away.

    There is an inter-generational reckoning coming.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SeanT said:

    Brexit Britain did precisely that. If we are to believe Remainers.

    In the end voters, faced with no prospect of material improvement, and likely decline, shall and do roll the dice. Why not?

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/805567349243908098
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    I don't see the Euro surviving, as is, another ten years. Impossible. A hardcore will federalise - Germany, Benelux, probably France and Spain, maybe Austria. The rest will detach.

    Plus the Baltics, Ireland.

    The policy of the FPO was for the Euro to split into Northern and Southern blocs. It would be interesting if the new Italian PM were to go down that route.
    That leaves just Italy, Greece and Portugal to detach.

    I can't see it myself. Despite all their problems the Greeks wasnt to stay in the Euro. Depreciating your currency is rarely popular.

    Why would Italians vote to be 30% poorer overnight?
    Brexit Britain did precisely that. If we are to believe Remainers.

    In the end voters, faced with no prospect of material improvement, and likely decline, shall and do roll the dice. Why not?

    Italy is not going to Quitaly. Apart from anything else, they have just voted to keep the same Constitution that prevents it!.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited December 2016
    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.

    Birthrates should rise if unemployment and the cost of living decline.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920

    The Demographics are kept viable by EU migration, with over a million Romanians living there.

    Yes they are. A collapse of the EU would make very stark the demographic disaster zones that are Italy and parts of Eastern Europe.

    I am reminded of the excellent Global Catastrophe by Philip Parker, about the impact of the Little Ice Age on the world. People assumed it was the existing social order (the elites) that was making them poor, when it was climate change. The revolts led, of course, to massively worse life outcomes for the poor.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit Britain did precisely that. If we are to believe Remainers.

    In the end voters, faced with no prospect of material improvement, and likely decline, shall and do roll the dice. Why not?

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/805567349243908098
    The recent Sterling uptick is mostly because of the A50 delay in the Courts as I recall.

  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Yes is leading by just 12,500 votes in the Emilia-Romagna region with 4081/4513 in.
  • Options
    AndyJS said:

    The next NZ election was due by November 2017. I guess this news is likely to bring it forward to the start of the year.

    Don't see why - the National Party will appoint a new Leader, Key will go to the Governor General, resign, and recommend the new leader be appointed PM.......
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2016
    Interesting that the total electorate in Italy is 51 million compared to 45 million in the UK. The population of Italy is about 5 million less than the UK.
  • Options
    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited December 2016

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit Britain did precisely that. If we are to believe Remainers.

    In the end voters, faced with no prospect of material improvement, and likely decline, shall and do roll the dice. Why not?

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/805567349243908098
    The recent Sterling uptick is mostly because of the A50 delay in the Courts as I recall.

    No it is because of Trump, look at the dates.

    http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=1M
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    @Speedy:

    See https://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_tfrt_in&idim=country:ITA:USA:DEU&hl=en&dl=en

    Italy's collapse in TFR coincided with an economic boom. (No coincidence, of course, women not having babies are able to enter the workforce, boosting economic growth. China's one child policy drove its economic growth too.)

    Italy's TFR has actually risen 20% since the mid 1990s, which were Italy's relative economic peak.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
    Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea also have very low TFR despite strogly growing economies.

    TFR is falling worldwide, perhaps most dramatically in Iran. It mostly correlates with female education and employment.

    It is also important for control of the worldwide population. It is how we adapt to it that matters.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    The next NZ election was due by November 2017. I guess this news is likely to bring it forward to the start of the year.

    Don't see why - the National Party will appoint a new Leader, Key will go to the Governor General, resign, and recommend the new leader be appointed PM.......
    They could decide to seek a new mandate sooner rather than later.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
    Shanghai maybe the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth, but is the standard of living getting better there?

    Are people in Shanghai living in larger and cheaper houses for instance?

    Also unemployment made an appearance around the year 1980 in the med. region, before that those economies like Japan had total employment.

    Japan too had total employment until the 90's crash which they never escaped.

    Living Standards and the Quality of Life play the major role I believe in birth rates.

    Unemployment, Inflation, Wage growth, House prices and sizes, the Environment, Physical Health, all play a role in having and raising a family.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918
    edited December 2016
    AnneJGP said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Oh well, it all helps to maintain the interest ...
    Interest? In New Zealand?

    Mind, I wish I'd gone there 60 years ago.
  • Options
    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited December 2016
    With 7,996 of 7,998 sections reporting turnouts, total turnout is at 68.4%
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2016
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
    Shanghai maybe the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth, but is the standard of living getting better there?

    Are people in Shanghai living in larger and cheaper houses for instance?

    Also unemployment made an appearance around the year 1980 in the med. region, before that those economies like Japan had total employment.

    Japan too had total employment until the 90's crash which they never escaped.

    Living Standards and the Quality of Life play the major role I believe in birth rates.

    Unemployment, Inflation, Wage growth, House prices and sizes, the Environment, Physical Health, all play a role in having and raising a family.
    The standard of living for the average person in Shanghai didn't seem particularly high to me compared to the West when I was there a couple of years ago. A heavy proportion of them seemed to spend a large chunk of their day trying to cross multi-lane roads with no pedestrian crossings.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    Speedy said:

    Shanghai maybe the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth, but is the standard of living getting better there?

    Are people in Shanghai living in larger and cheaper houses for instance?

    Also unemployment made an appearance around the year 1980 in the med. region, before that those economies like Japan had total employment.

    Japan too had total employment until the 90's crash which they never escaped.

    Living Standards and the Quality of Life play the major role I believe in birth rates.

    Unemployment, Inflation, Wage growth, House prices and sizes, the Environment, Physical Health, all play a role in having and raising a family.

    OK. Let's answer this one with data. I don't know the answer and nor do you, so shall we formulate a question that can be answered with data, and then we agree to abide by what the data tells us?

    The question is this: is a falling TFR a conseqence of falling economic growth?
    So, we'll look at 40 odd countries over the last 50 years, and ask what happens in the following cases:

    1. In a (five year) period when economic growth decelerates from the previous five years, does the TFR rise or decline?
    2. In a (five year) period when economic growth accelerates from the previous five years, does the TFR rise or decline?
    3. In a (five year) period when the TFR decelerates from the previous five years, does economic growth rise or decline?
    4. In a (five year) period when the TFR accelerates from the previous five years, does economic growth rise or decline?

    The data is all available on Google Data Explorer and Trading Economics, shall we both do an analysis and see what the data says and agree to abide by it?
  • Options
    PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
    Shanghai maybe the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth, but is the standard of living getting better there?

    Are people in Shanghai living in larger and cheaper houses for instance?

    Also unemployment made an appearance around the year 1980 in the med. region, before that those economies like Japan had total employment.

    Japan too had total employment until the 90's crash which they never escaped.

    Living Standards and the Quality of Life play the major role I believe in birth rates.

    Unemployment, Inflation, Wage growth, House prices and sizes, the Environment, Physical Health, all play a role in having and raising a family.
    Isn't Shanghai also a discountable exception due to China's one child policies and such historically. State intervention distorting the typical market impacts.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
    Point of Order, Mr Speaker. The fastest growing economy on earth (of any significant size) is no longer China. It is India. A fact often overlooked.

    http://in.reuters.com/article/us-india-economy-gdp-idINKBN13P1X8

    India is actually speeding up. This is another Asian nation of 1.3 BILLION people.

    The Asian boom has a long long way to go, and when it is finished the world will be transformed entirely. Our western travails will seem trivial.
    Wouldn't disagree. India is a fabulous place too. :)
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited December 2016

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
    Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea also have very low TFR despite strogly growing economies.

    TFR is falling worldwide, perhaps most dramatically in Iran. It mostly correlates with female education and employment.

    It is also important for control of the worldwide population. It is how we adapt to it that matters.
    Anecdote alert.

    A Japanese man who visited America for the first time was astounded that people lived in such large houses, he complained that in Japan there is no room for a family to live in a city apartment yet a single person could have a such a large house all to himself in america.

    That's when I first formed the idea that the Quality of Life can drive birth rates.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    Pauly said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
    Shanghai maybe the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth, but is the standard of living getting better there?

    Are people in Shanghai living in larger and cheaper houses for instance?

    Also unemployment made an appearance around the year 1980 in the med. region, before that those economies like Japan had total employment.

    Japan too had total employment until the 90's crash which they never escaped.

    Living Standards and the Quality of Life play the major role I believe in birth rates.

    Unemployment, Inflation, Wage growth, House prices and sizes, the Environment, Physical Health, all play a role in having and raising a family.
    Isn't Shanghai also a discountable exception due to China's one child policies and such historically. State intervention distorting the typical market impacts.
    TFRs have collapsed all over Asia, and China has introduced a massive number of exceptions to the one child policy,

    Indeed, for all its loosening, the TFR in China keeps falling.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
    Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea also have very low TFR despite strogly growing economies.

    TFR is falling worldwide, perhaps most dramatically in Iran. It mostly correlates with female education and employment.

    It is also important for control of the worldwide population. It is how we adapt to it that matters.
    Anecdote alert.

    A Japanese man who visited America for the first time was astounded that people lived in such large houses, he complained that in Japan there is no room for a family to live in a city apartment yet a single person could have a such a large house all to himself in america.

    That's when I first formed the idea that the Quality of Life can drive birth rates.
    But Singapore has - by any measure - one of the highest standards of living in the world. And it has tiny homes.

    Are they deluded? And if so, why are so many people trying to go to Singapore, and so few people trying to leave?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
    Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea also have very low TFR despite strogly growing economies.

    TFR is falling worldwide, perhaps most dramatically in Iran. It mostly correlates with female education and employment.

    It is also important for control of the worldwide population. It is how we adapt to it that matters.
    Anecdote alert.

    A Japanese man who visited America for the first time was astounded that people lived in such large houses, he complained that in Japan there is no room for a family to live in a city apartment yet a single person could have a such a large house all to himself in america.

    That's when I first formed the idea that the Quality of Life can drive birth rates.
    Tough across the US and rest of the world it is the rich who have the lowest TFR, not those more marginal. I don't think your contention holds up.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
    Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea also have very low TFR despite strogly growing economies.

    TFR is falling worldwide, perhaps most dramatically in Iran. It mostly correlates with female education and employment.

    It is also important for control of the worldwide population. It is how we adapt to it that matters.
    Anecdote alert.

    A Japanese man who visited America for the first time was astounded that people lived in such large houses, he complained that in Japan there is no room for a family to live in a city apartment yet a single person could have a such a large house all to himself in america.

    That's when I first formed the idea that the Quality of Life can drive birth rates.
    Tough across the US and rest of the world it is the rich who have the lowest TFR, not those more marginal. I don't think your contention holds up.
    Do you know where you can find data on fertility rates by socioeconomic group?
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
    Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea also have very low TFR despite strogly growing economies.

    TFR is falling worldwide, perhaps most dramatically in Iran. It mostly correlates with female education and employment.

    It is also important for control of the worldwide population. It is how we adapt to it that matters.
    Anecdote alert.

    A Japanese man who visited America for the first time was astounded that people lived in such large houses, he complained that in Japan there is no room for a family to live in a city apartment yet a single person could have a such a large house all to himself in america.

    That's when I first formed the idea that the Quality of Life can drive birth rates.
    But Singapore has - by any measure - one of the highest standards of living in the world. And it has tiny homes.

    Are they deluded? And if so, why are so many people trying to go to Singapore, and so few people trying to leave?
    And what is the TFR for Singapore ?

    I would guess due to the lack of affordability of suitable family accommodation that it is low.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
    Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea also have very low TFR despite strogly growing economies.

    TFR is falling worldwide, perhaps most dramatically in Iran. It mostly correlates with female education and employment.

    It is also important for control of the worldwide population. It is how we adapt to it that matters.
    Anecdote alert.

    A Japanese man who visited America for the first time was astounded that people lived in such large houses, he complained that in Japan there is no room for a family to live in a city apartment yet a single person could have a such a large house all to himself in america.

    That's when I first formed the idea that the Quality of Life can drive birth rates.
    But Singapore has - by any measure - one of the highest standards of living in the world. And it has tiny homes.

    Are they deluded? And if so, why are so many people trying to go to Singapore, and so few people trying to leave?
    There is also a discipline to living in a small place - limitation on junk and need to be tidy. I suffer the opposite problem, too much space and too much junk
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    Speedy said:

    And what is the TFR for Singapore ?

    I would guess due to the lack of affordability of suitable family accommodation that it is low.

    It is low despite the government having some of the most aggressive pro-natal policies on earth.

    My point, though, was that on "quality of life" measures (including surveys), Singapore is one of the - if not the - highest countries on earth. Yet the TFR is still falling. It's not declining because people feel pessimistic about the future, although expensive housing is no doubt an issue, but because {x}*.

    * I suspect, but don't know, that it is because people can choose not to have children.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    MTimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
    Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea also have very low TFR despite strogly growing economies.

    TFR is falling worldwide, perhaps most dramatically in Iran. It mostly correlates with female education and employment.

    It is also important for control of the worldwide population. It is how we adapt to it that matters.
    Anecdote alert.

    A Japanese man who visited America for the first time was astounded that people lived in such large houses, he complained that in Japan there is no room for a family to live in a city apartment yet a single person could have a such a large house all to himself in america.

    That's when I first formed the idea that the Quality of Life can drive birth rates.
    But Singapore has - by any measure - one of the highest standards of living in the world. And it has tiny homes.

    Are they deluded? And if so, why are so many people trying to go to Singapore, and so few people trying to leave?
    There is also a discipline to living in a small place - limitation on junk and need to be tidy. I suffer the opposite problem, too much space and too much junk
    There's probably an optimal population density for procreation. I'd like to study it, but my wife might disapprove.
  • Options
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
    Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea also have very low TFR despite strogly growing economies.

    TFR is falling worldwide, perhaps most dramatically in Iran. It mostly correlates with female education and employment.

    It is also important for control of the worldwide population. It is how we adapt to it that matters.
    Anecdote alert.

    A Japanese man who visited America for the first time was astounded that people lived in such large houses, he complained that in Japan there is no room for a family to live in a city apartment yet a single person could have a such a large house all to himself in america.

    That's when I first formed the idea that the Quality of Life can drive birth rates.
    seems like a fairly ignorant japanese man. Perfectly possible to find large houses. here 50 mins from Tokyo station by shinkansen. Cheap too, especially if you buy a house >20 years old.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
    Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea also have very low TFR despite strogly growing economies.

    TFR is falling worldwide, perhaps most dramatically in Iran. It mostly correlates with female education and employment.

    It is also important for control of the worldwide population. It is how we adapt to it that matters.
    Anecdote alert.

    A Japanese man who visited America for the first time was astounded that people lived in such large houses, he complained that in Japan there is no room for a family to live in a city apartment yet a single person could have a such a large house all to himself in america.

    That's when I first formed the idea that the Quality of Life can drive birth rates.
    But Singapore has - by any measure - one of the highest standards of living in the world. And it has tiny homes.

    Are they deluded? And if so, why are so many people trying to go to Singapore, and so few people trying to leave?
    mass hysteria? far too hot and crowded!

    i guess there may be a difference "standard of living" vs "quality of life"
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Dying.

    Worst demographics in the Western world. Alongside Japan, it's a lesson in what happens when people stop having babies.

    Leaving the Euro will probably help Italy, a bit, in that it will enable the country to become poorer by stealth. But it won't stop the fact that there are a diminishing number of working age Italians, supporting an ever larger number of retired ones, and health care costs are ever rising.

    I have a theory that birthrates decline not only because of birth control but due to a lower standard of living.

    Italy, Japan, Greece, the eastern block ect. had a nosedive which coincided with the arrival of mass unemployment or permanent recession in each of those countries.

    That the birthrates recovered in some eastern block countries along with rising living standards after the 90's crash aids my theory.
    There's certainly truth in that. With a big but.

    The lowest TFR in the world (that I know of) is Shanghai province in China. 0.68 babies per woman over her reproductive years. And Shanghai is the richest part of the fastest growing country on earth.

    The Italian TFR collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s, a 25 year period that ended with Italy as a bigger exporter than China, the US or Germany. It's not budged since.
    Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea also have very low TFR despite strogly growing economies.

    TFR is falling worldwide, perhaps most dramatically in Iran. It mostly correlates with female education and employment.

    It is also important for control of the worldwide population. It is how we adapt to it that matters.
    Anecdote alert.

    A Japanese man who visited America for the first time was astounded that people lived in such large houses, he complained that in Japan there is no room for a family to live in a city apartment yet a single person could have a such a large house all to himself in america.

    That's when I first formed the idea that the Quality of Life can drive birth rates.
    But Singapore has - by any measure - one of the highest standards of living in the world. And it has tiny homes.

    Are they deluded? And if so, why are so many people trying to go to Singapore, and so few people trying to leave?
    mass hysteria? far too hot and crowded!

    i guess there may be a difference "standard of living" vs "quality of life"
    I like things I can measure...
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:



    I like things I can measure...

    maybe better measuring instruments are needed
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    rcs1000 said:



    There's probably an optimal population density for procreation. I'd like to study it, but my wife might disapprove.

    Try like I did, what are the things that we would like to have if he had a family ?

    A good job.
    A cheap House with enough rooms, preferably with a garden too.
    Decent Schools.
    A peaceful neighbourhood.
    Low living costs.

    Now think of all the things that affect the above.
  • Options
    Grauniad have updated their front page:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cy3_k22WQAA5MZ7.jpg
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    O/T

    Anyone watching Rillington Place? Tim Roth's portrayal of Christie was genuinely creepy.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:



    There's probably an optimal population density for procreation. I'd like to study it, but my wife might disapprove.

    Try like I did, what are the things that we would like to have if he had a family ?

    A good job.
    A cheap House with enough rooms, preferably with a garden too.
    Decent Schools.
    A peaceful neighbourhood.
    Low living costs.

    Now think of all the things that affect the above.
    One of my grandfathers had eleven children. The relevant census has three of the sons still at home and described as farmworkers.
    Cheaper than employing people, allegedly.
This discussion has been closed.