This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Leave contained several subsets, including those expecting £350m extra per week for the NHS. Good people, albeit gullible.
With every passing day the bucket of steaming poo that represented the legacy of Cameron D gets stinkier. How long can the Tories remain united when people like Bone brief no surrender whilst people like Soubry flaunt their europhilia. It's interesting how silent the majority are though.
The Tories have just learned that hard Brexit comes with electoral consequences. Corbyn Labour has left the LibDems with a huge space to occupy. Rather than being the party of staying in the EU, which puts a roof on their progress, they should become the part of Soft Brexit. That's a position the Tories cannot take without splitting and it is one that Corbyn Labour does not want to take.
'Talking to the parties' means at least a willingness to support them (c.f. the SNP re the Tories). Clegg didn't demand Brown's departure before the election and when he did so afterwards he guaranteed a Con-LD deal as it ensured that there was no-one in Labour to talk to and that no deal could be guaranteed to survive the Labour leadership election.
But if Farron says something similar, it's easy to write the tactical 'don't let Corbyn in by the back door' leaflets.
Well, I doubt he'll rule out working with Corbyn on principle, so they'll be able to write those leaflets.
I don't think the things you mention would have made a Lab-without-Brown deal impossible, though. Lab could have picked a caretaker, and cut a deal, and that person would probably have been subsequenty elected by the membership. If somebody else had won and refused to honour the deal, that would have been the end of the deal. The fact that an agreement may subsequently break up doesn't necessarily mean you can't make one and hope it holds. What killed the thing off was that Lab just didn't have the numbers, especially when Tom Watson and a few other high-ranking Lab politicians started implying they wouldn't vote for the LibDems' quid-pro-quo.
Lab-without-Corbyn might actually be doable, but the problem is that for that situation to come about Lab needs to have done far better than expected, and it would be hard for Labour to knife an unexpectedly triumphant leader. It's a different situation from Brown, who started out with a majority, so the only way was down.
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Not quite fair Dr - Corbyn and Abbott were for Remain (at least officially).
My younger daughter has recently announced that she has switched her loyalty from the Tories to the Lib Dems. She was a great fan of Cameron but has little time for May and finds Farron normal and likeable (something I was teasing her about only at tea time yesterday). Clearly she was ahead of the trend.
For the Tories this is a risk. Cameron and Osborne built their majority on the back of the bodies of their erstwhile coalition partners. They did so by repositioning the Tories as a centre party with a liberal social agenda and it played very well in Lib Dem seats.
In contrast May is much more of a traditional Conservative. This has allowed her to pick up some of the support that Cameron had lost to UKIP boosting her standing in the polls to remarkable levels. But are the Tories in danger of swopping the votes they needed to win a majority for ever larger majorities in already safe seats? I think they are and that this result, albeit helped by Zac's stupidity, is a good example of that.
I may not be following my daughter yet but I am massively less enthusiastic about May than I was about Cameron and Osborne. If it wasn't for Ruth...
If that is what's happening (a Con-LD swing, offset by a UKIP-Con one), it'd depend on the numbers but my gut instinct is that it'd see some losses to LDs in SW England and SW London, offset by gains from Labour in Mids, NW and Yorks. But with the majority so slim, which factor would be bigger is critical and would obviously depend on the numbers.
Push comes to shove with posters of Jeremy Corbyn in Alex Salmond's breast pocket.
No - every Tory poster will be him in front of that sports car coupled with some of his choicer statements attached.
It will be brutal, and much wailed over, and talked about endlessly by Corbyn's fellow metropolitan elites in the media with no brain cells to run together (e.g. Milne) with long faces.
And it will be effective, and fair, and most of all very funny to watch.
I'm not so sure.
I'm aware of focus groups conducted that where the voters just flat out refused to believe some of Corbyn and McDonnell's more choice words.
'Nobody would say that' or 'Must have been taken out of context'
With every passing day the bucket of steaming poo that represented the legacy of Cameron D gets stinkier. How long can the Tories remain united when people like Bone brief no surrender whilst people like Soubry flaunt their europhilia. It's interesting how silent the majority are though.
The Tories have just learned that hard Brexit comes with electoral consequences. Corbyn Labour has left the LibDems with a huge space to occupy. Rather than being the party of staying in the EU, which puts a roof on their progress, they should become the part of Soft Brexit. That's a position the Tories cannot take without splitting and it is one that Corbyn Labour does not want to take.
My younger daughter has recently announced that she has switched her loyalty from the Tories to the Lib Dems. She was a great fan of Cameron but has little time for May and finds Farron normal and likeable (something I was teasing her about only at tea time yesterday). Clearly she was ahead of the trend.
For the Tories this is a risk. Cameron and Osborne built their majority on the back of the bodies of their erstwhile coalition partners. They did so by repositioning the Tories as a centre party with a liberal social agenda and it played very well in Lib Dem seats.
In contrast May is much more of a traditional Conservative. This has allowed her to pick up some of the support that Cameron had lost to UKIP boosting her standing in the polls to remarkable levels. But are the Tories in danger of swopping the votes they needed to win a majority for ever larger majorities in already safe seats? I think they are and that this result, albeit helped by Zac's stupidity, is a good example of that.
I may not be following my daughter yet but I am massively less enthusiastic about May than I was about Cameron and Osborne. If it wasn't for Ruth...
If that is what's happening (a Con-LD swing, offset by a UKIP-Con one), it'd depend on the numbers but my gut instinct is that it'd see some losses to LDs in SW England and SW London, offset by gains from Labour in Mids, NW and Yorks. But with the majority so slim, which factor would be bigger is critical and would obviously depend on the numbers.
That's exactly the point I was making David. My fear is that the Tory vote once again becomes extremely inefficient (as per 2010). It also depends on scale though. If she gains 6-7% from UKIP and loses 3-4% to the Lib Dems she should do alright, especially with Labour going backwards.
All good points. Lib Dems are back with a mild bang. They should pick up seats from Tories that they lost in 2015. The biggest loser could well be Labour: UKIP will nibble them in the North, Libs will bite them in the South as you say. If the yellow peril can manage to get the Remoaners to coalesce around them they could become the SNP of England...lost referendum, won votes. I think Labour should not be worried about losing their deposit,...it happens. But they should be worried that over longer period, Libs might become the 2nd party in England outside North and larger Cities.
My younger daughter has recently announced that she has switched her loyalty from the Tories to the Lib Dems. She was a great fan of Cameron but has little time for May and finds Farron normal and likeable (something I was teasing her about only at tea time yesterday). Clearly she was ahead of the trend.
For the Tories this is a risk. Cameron and Osborne built their majority on the back of the bodies of their erstwhile coalition partners. They did so by repositioning the Tories as a centre party with a liberal social agenda and it played very well in Lib Dem seats.
In contrast May is much more of a traditional Conservative. This has allowed her to pick up some of the support that Cameron had lost to UKIP boosting her standing in the polls to remarkable levels. But are the Tories in danger of swopping the votes they needed to win a majority for ever larger majorities in already safe seats? I think they are and that this result, albeit helped by Zac's stupidity, is a good example of that.
I may not be following my daughter yet but I am massively less enthusiastic about May than I was about Cameron and Osborne. If it wasn't for Ruth...
If that is what's happening (a Con-LD swing, offset by a UKIP-Con one), it'd depend on the numbers but my gut instinct is that it'd see some losses to LDs in SW England and SW London, offset by gains from Labour in Mids, NW and Yorks. But with the majority so slim, which factor would be bigger is critical and would obviously depend on the numbers.
Push comes to shove with posters of Jeremy Corbyn in Alex Salmond's breast pocket.
Labour should produce one in response with the 3 brexiteers pulling the strings of a puppet May
My younger daughter has recently announced that she has switched her loyalty from the Tories to the Lib Dems. She was a great fan of Cameron but has little time for May and finds Farron normal and likeable (something I was teasing her about only at tea time yesterday). Clearly she was ahead of the trend.
For the Tories this is a risk. Cameron and Osborne built their majority on the back of the bodies of their erstwhile coalition partners. They did so by repositioning the Tories as a centre party with a liberal social agenda and it played very well in Lib Dem seats.
In contrast May is much more of a traditional Conservative. This has allowed her to pick up some of the support that Cameron had lost to UKIP boosting her standing in the polls to remarkable levels. But are the Tories in danger of swopping the votes they needed to win a majority for ever larger majorities in already safe seats? I think they are and that this result, albeit helped by Zac's stupidity, is a good example of that.
I may not be following my daughter yet but I am massively less enthusiastic about May than I was about Cameron and Osborne. If it wasn't for Ruth...
Fox jr and his girlfriend are both now inclined to the LDs too. Tuition fees are ancient history to them, but Brexit is very real.
There will be reality checks, but this is the start of a long road back for the LDs.
Harborough, and Hinckley and Bosworth look the most winnable seats locally to me.
Brexit was the key for my daughter. She really didn't understand her dad's decision on that at all!
My ideal scenario would be a sensible centre left Lib Dem party becoming the alternative government of choice with Labour collapsing under its incoherence but that possibility seemed to disappear in 2015. Still every great journey starts with a single step....
give her 20 years and she'll be agreeing with you.
we were all eurofans once
I'm quite relaxed about it. I was in the SDP at her age. The young tend to be idealistic and quite right too.
My younger daughter has recently announced that she has switched her loyalty from the Tories to the Lib Dems. She was a great fan of Cameron but has little time for May and finds Farron normal and likeable (something I was teasing her about only at tea time yesterday). Clearly she was ahead of the trend.
For the Tories this is a risk. Cameron and Osborne built their majority on the back of the bodies of their erstwhile coalition partners. They did so by repositioning the Tories as a centre party with a liberal social agenda and it played very well in Lib Dem seats.
In contrast May is much more of a traditional Conservative. This has allowed her to pick up some of the support that Cameron had lost to UKIP boosting her standing in the polls to remarkable levels. But are the Tories in danger of swopping the votes they needed to win a majority for ever larger majorities in already safe seats? I think they are and that this result, albeit helped by Zac's stupidity, is a good example of that.
I may not be following my daughter yet but I am massively less enthusiastic about May than I was about Cameron and Osborne. If it wasn't for Ruth...
If that is what's happening (a Con-LD swing, offset by a UKIP-Con one), it'd depend on the numbers but my gut instinct is that it'd see some losses to LDs in SW England and SW London, offset by gains from Labour in Mids, NW and Yorks. But with the majority so slim, which factor would be bigger is critical and would obviously depend on the numbers.
Push comes to shove with posters of Jeremy Corbyn in Alex Salmond's breast pocket.
Labour should produce one in response with the 3 brexiteers pulling the strings of a puppet May
My younger daughter has recently announced that she has switched her loyalty from the Tories to the Lib Dems. She was a great fan of Cameron but has little time for May and finds Farron normal and likeable (something I was teasing her about only at tea time yesterday). Clearly she was ahead of the trend.
For the Tories this is a risk. Cameron and Osborne built their majority on the back of the bodies of their erstwhile coalition partners. They did so by repositioning the Tories as a centre party with a liberal social agenda and it played very well in Lib Dem seats.
In contrast May is much more of a traditional Conservative. This has allowed her to pick up some of the support that Cameron had lost to UKIP boosting her standing in the polls to remarkable levels. But are the Tories in danger of swopping the votes they needed to win a majority for ever larger majorities in already safe seats? I think they are and that this result, albeit helped by Zac's stupidity, is a good example of that.
I may not be following my daughter yet but I am massively less enthusiastic about May than I was about Cameron and Osborne. If it wasn't for Ruth...
Fox jr and his girlfriend are both now inclined to the LDs too. Tuition fees are ancient history to them, but Brexit is very real.
There will be reality checks, but this is the start of a long road back for the LDs.
Harborough, and Hinckley and Bosworth look the most winnable seats locally to me.
Brexit was the key for my daughter. She really didn't understand her dad's decision on that at all!
My ideal scenario would be a sensible centre left Lib Dem party becoming the alternative government of choice with Labour collapsing under its incoherence but that possibility seemed to disappear in 2015. Still every great journey starts with a single step....
give her 20 years and she'll be agreeing with you.
we were all eurofans once
No, the tide on that will change. Post Brexit Europe will look increasingly attractive. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, and everything bad that happens in Britain is going to be blamed on Brexit. Unfairly of course, but just the mirror image of the unfair blame heaped on the EU.
Britain's hokey cokey with the continent is one of the enduring themes of our history, since the Romans arrived.
Would agree with that, except perhaps LDs above Farron, and that this might be a tactical gain-strategic loss for Remain. But I'll probably come to that tomorrow.
I think Lib Dems would be in this position, regardless of leader, as long as they are not associated with Clegg and coalition. Farron comes across as a berk.
My younger daughter has recently announced that she has switched her loyalty from the Tories to the Lib Dems. She was a great fan of Cameron but has little time for May and finds Farron normal and likeable (something I was teasing her about only at tea time yesterday). Clearly she was ahead of the trend.
For the Tories this is a risk. Cameron and Osborne built their majority on the back of the bodies of their erstwhile coalition partners. They did so by repositioning the Tories as a centre party with a liberal social agenda and it played very well in Lib Dem seats.
In contrast May is much more of a traditional Conservative. This has allowed her to pick up some of the support that Cameron had lost to UKIP boosting her standing in the polls to remarkable levels. But are the Tories in danger of swopping the votes they needed to win a majority for ever larger majorities in already safe seats? I think they are and that this result, albeit helped by Zac's stupidity, is a good example of that.
I may not be following my daughter yet but I am massively less enthusiastic about May than I was about Cameron and Osborne. If it wasn't for Ruth...
If that is what's happening (a Con-LD swing, offset by a UKIP-Con one), it'd depend on the numbers but my gut instinct is that it'd see some losses to LDs in SW England and SW London, offset by gains from Labour in Mids, NW and Yorks. But with the majority so slim, which factor would be bigger is critical and would obviously depend on the numbers.
Push comes to shove with posters of Jeremy Corbyn in Alex Salmond's breast pocket.
No - every Tory poster will be him in front of that sports car coupled with some of his choicer statements attached.
It will be brutal, and much wailed over, and talked about endlessly by Corbyn's fellow metropolitan elites in the media with no brain cells to run together (e.g. Milne) with long faces.
And it will be effective, and fair, and most of all very funny to watch.
I'm not so sure.
I'm aware of focus groups conducted that where the voters just flat out refused to believe some of Corbyn and McDonnell's more choice words.
'Nobody would say that' or 'Must have been taken out of context'
I haven't forgotten those posters we all assumed were a mash up.
I just think that when they're everywhere, feeding into the narrative that Corbyn is a dangerous extremist with repellent views, people will come to believe them. Especially if he tries to deny them and they are proven to be true (cf Brown's famous 'no more "Tory" boom and bust').
With every passing day the bucket of steaming poo that represented the legacy of Cameron D gets stinkier. How long can the Tories remain united when people like Bone brief no surrender whilst people like Soubry flaunt their europhilia. It's interesting how silent the majority are though.
The Tories have just learned that hard Brexit comes with electoral consequences. Corbyn Labour has left the LibDems with a huge space to occupy. Rather than being the party of staying in the EU, which puts a roof on their progress, they should become the part of Soft Brexit. That's a position the Tories cannot take without splitting and it is one that Corbyn Labour does not want to take.
What the Tories need to be thankful for is that UKIPs best targets are now up north rather than down south in their heartlands.
Yes they may lose a few votes to the Lib Dems but Labour is going to have far bigger problems up north, and that may allow the Tories to grab a few seats where they are currently second.
As for Soft Brexit, that isn't a position you really can campaign for at this moment. You campaign to be noticed then shift to soft Brexit once exit is inevitable.... Campaigning to rejoin would be pointless then, campaigning to stay in touch with Europe far far easier.
My younger daughter has recently announced that she has switched her loyalty from the Tories to the Lib Dems. She was a great fan of Cameron but has little time for May and finds Farron normal and likeable (something I was teasing her about only at tea time yesterday). Clearly she was ahead of the trend.
For the Tories this is a risk. Cameron and Osborne built their majority on the back of the bodies of their erstwhile coalition partners. They did so by repositioning the Tories as a centre party with a liberal social agenda and it played very well in Lib Dem seats.
In contrast May is much more of a traditional Conservative. This has allowed her to pick up some of the support that Cameron had lost to UKIP boosting her standing in the polls to remarkable levels. But are the Tories in danger of swopping the votes they needed to win a majority for ever larger majorities in already safe seats? I think they are and that this result, albeit helped by Zac's stupidity, is a good example of that.
I may not be following my daughter yet but I am massively less enthusiastic about May than I was about Cameron and Osborne. If it wasn't for Ruth...
Fox jr and his girlfriend are both now inclined to the LDs too. Tuition fees are ancient history to them, but Brexit is very real.
There will be reality checks, but this is the start of a long road back for the LDs.
Harborough, and Hinckley and Bosworth look the most winnable seats locally to me.
Brexit was the key for my daughter. She really didn't understand her dad's decision on that at all!
My ideal scenario would be a sensible centre left Lib Dem party becoming the alternative government of choice with Labour collapsing under its incoherence but that possibility seemed to disappear in 2015. Still every great journey starts with a single step....
give her 20 years and she'll be agreeing with you.
we were all eurofans once
No, the tide on that will change. Post Brexit Europe will look increasingly attractive. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, and everything bad that happens in Britain is going to be blamed on Brexit. Unfairly of course, but just the mirror image of the unfair blame heaped on the EU.
Britain's hokey cokey with the continent is one of the enduring themes of our history, since the Romans arrived.
I look forward to when you are older and your views start to shift
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Leave contained several subsets, including those expecting £350m extra per week for the NHS. Good people, albeit gullible.
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Leave contained several subsets, including those expecting £350m extra per week for the NHS. Good people, albeit gullible.
Would agree with that, except perhaps LDs above Farron, and that this might be a tactical gain-strategic loss for Remain. But I'll probably come to that tomorrow.
I think Lib Dems would be in this position, regardless of leader, as long as they are not associated with Clegg and coalition. Farron comes across as a berk.
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Leave contained several subsets, including those expecting £350m extra per week for the NHS. Good people, albeit gullible.
The intolerance of some Europhiles and their contempt for their own country was also something to see. For me Brexit was something that sensible people could easily come to differing conclusions on with quite strong arguments on both sides. The extremists of both sides had very little of value to add.
My younger daughter has recently announced that she has switched her loyalty from the Tories to the Lib Dems. She was a great fan of Cameron but has little time for May and finds Farron normal and likeable (something I was teasing her about only at tea time yesterday). Clearly she was ahead of the trend.
For the Tories this is a risk. Cameron and Osborne built their majority on the back of the bodies of their erstwhile coalition partners. They did so by repositioning the Tories as a centre party with a liberal social agenda and it played very well in Lib Dem seats.
In contrast May is much more of a traditional Conservative. This has allowed her to pick up some of the support that Cameron had lost to UKIP boosting her standing in the polls to remarkable levels. But are the Tories in danger of swopping the votes they needed to win a majority for ever larger majorities in already safe seats? I think they are and that this result, albeit helped by Zac's stupidity, is a good example of that.
I may not be following my daughter yet but I am massively less enthusiastic about May than I was about Cameron and Osborne. If it wasn't for Ruth...
If that is what's happening (a Con-LD swing, offset by a UKIP-Con one), it'd depend on the numbers but my gut instinct is that it'd see some losses to LDs in SW England and SW London, offset by gains from Labour in Mids, NW and Yorks. But with the majority so slim, which factor would be bigger is critical and would obviously depend on the numbers.
Push comes to shove with posters of Jeremy Corbyn in Alex Salmond's breast pocket.
Labour should produce one in response with the 3 brexiteers pulling the strings of a puppet May
Just May in Farages pocket.
I like the idea of Farage pulling the brexiteers strings whilst the brexiteers pull May's. Maybe you get the Donald in somewhere for extra effect.
With every passing day the bucket of steaming poo that represented the legacy of Cameron D gets stinkier. How long can the Tories remain united when people like Bone brief no surrender whilst people like Soubry flaunt their europhilia. It's interesting how silent the majority are though.
The Tories have just learned that hard Brexit comes with electoral consequences. Corbyn Labour has left the LibDems with a huge space to occupy. Rather than being the party of staying in the EU, which puts a roof on their progress, they should become the part of Soft Brexit. That's a position the Tories cannot take without splitting and it is one that Corbyn Labour does not want to take.
It's a by election. The one thing we know about by elections is that they don't reflect what is likely to happen at a general election.
Ergo, almost nothing can be read into the defeat of a not very clever but very vain Tory rich boy by the 8th Lib Dem in Parliament.
A great result for the Lib Dems and a damning indictment on Mrs May.
I kept on saying all those Lib Dem seats gained by the Tories in 2010/2015 was down to Dave and Mrs May being less appealing to those Lib Dem switchers.
A damning indictment on Goldsmith, surely
Well Mrs May chickened out by failing to put up a candidate. You couldn't see Mrs Thatcher doing that.
Mrs May is frit.
I don't see how she could have done anything else! As an independent, Goldberg would have voted Tory for anything other than Heathrow and was a Brexiteer. May couldn't ask for more for a parliamentary representative
A great result for the lib dems. In a way, happy with this as couldnt stand Goldsmith.
Not sure what this was a vote on exactly though. Was it about Heathrow, or about Zac terrible London mayoralty campaign. Or was it about Brexit? (I'm sure people will use to suit their own agenda)
Both Olney and Zac were campaigning against Heathrow, so it's probably not that.
The mayoral campaign probably played into it a little, but mainly it'll be about the EU. AFAICR Zac was not just a leaver but a hard Brexiter.
His platform was also somewhat odd: "My constituents are against Heathrow, and therefore I'm against Heathrow. But my constituents are for remaining, and I'm for leaving."
Well, he's left. Good riddance.
Everybody today saying how much they disliked Zac. Previously he was described as a popular MP with a good personal vote.
As that great commentator Nelson Munt would say: HA HA!
There are no friends in politics.
On the way up and in power you could get your knob out in a restaurant and everyone would laugh. If you lost a seat, you would be arrested.
Zac has gone from hero to zero. That's politics.
Kipling: If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same.
Politicians rarely do. Nor do the media and voters.
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Leave contained several subsets, including those expecting £350m extra per week for the NHS. Good people, albeit gullible.
That's not true either.
How's that well planned, tolerant, soft Brexit thing working out for ya?
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Leave contained several subsets, including those expecting £350m extra per week for the NHS. Good people, albeit gullible.
The intolerance of some Europhiles and their contempt for their own country was also something to see. For me Brexit was something that sensible people could easily come to differing conclusions on with quite strong arguments on both sides. The extremists of both sides had very little of value to add.
I do not have contempt for my country, any more than you have for Scotland.
The thought that "No true Scot opposes independence" is very offensive to Unionist Scots, and the parallel with Britain in Europe is apposite. Calling Remainers unpatriotic is equally offensive, we just believe in a more open minded Britain.
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Leave contained several subsets, including those expecting £350m extra per week for the NHS. Good people, albeit gullible.
The intolerance of some Europhiles and their contempt for their own country was also something to see. For me Brexit was something that sensible people could easily come to differing conclusions on with quite strong arguments on both sides. The extremists of both sides had very little of value to add.
What amuses me is the way that nothing about the EU can be good in the eyes of the hardcore Europhobes. If you even dare to mention one small, relatively insignificant way that EU has been positive, you get shouted down by people who know nothing about that particular topic. You cannot be right, because *nothing* good can come out of the EU. Even when you present facts to them, the facts are wrong.
But it's not just the Europhobes; the Europhiles are just as bad. Facts don't matter to the hardcore on either side. It's more akin to religion than politics.
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Leave contained several subsets, including those expecting £350m extra per week for the NHS. Good people, albeit gullible.
The intolerance of some Europhiles and their contempt for their own country was also something to see. For me Brexit was something that sensible people could easily come to differing conclusions on with quite strong arguments on both sides. The extremists of both sides had very little of value to add.
The whole point of the progressive movement since the 50s is that they wanted to throw away pretty much everything that was traditionally seen as British. Everything from morality to drug laws to marriage to architecture had to go, to sweep in a new world in which their views were the mainstream. The EU is just a tool in that continuing battle.
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Leave contained several subsets, including those expecting £350m extra per week for the NHS. Good people, albeit gullible.
That's not true either.
How's that well planned, tolerant, soft Brexit thing working out for ya?
With every passing day the bucket of steaming poo that represented the legacy of Cameron D gets stinkier. How long can the Tories remain united when people like Bone brief no surrender whilst people like Soubry flaunt their europhilia. It's interesting how silent the majority are though.
The Tories have just learned that hard Brexit comes with electoral consequences. Corbyn Labour has left the LibDems with a huge space to occupy. Rather than being the party of staying in the EU, which puts a roof on their progress, they should become the part of Soft Brexit. That's a position the Tories cannot take without splitting and it is one that Corbyn Labour does not want to take.
If Labour were a credible opposition, Tories would indeed be in the shit. Long live Jezza.
I don't know what it says about Brexit but I know what it says about Zac: utter, utter knob.
agreed
If Zac is such a knob, why did the Tories step aside?
coz they are all mates. As much as Tories are ruthless, the old boys' network always survives. Mrs May was cornered. That said, she should have put up a candidate, even if loss more likely, because Zac lost anyway.
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Leave contained several subsets, including those expecting £350m extra per week for the NHS. Good people, albeit gullible.
The intolerance of some Europhiles and their contempt for their own country was also something to see. For me Brexit was something that sensible people could easily come to differing conclusions on with quite strong arguments on both sides. The extremists of both sides had very little of value to add.
The whole point of the progressive movement since the 50s is that they wanted to throw away pretty much everything that was traditionally seen as British. Everything from morality to drug laws to marriage to architecture had to go, to sweep in a new world in which their views were the mainstream. The EU is just a tool in that continuing battle.
That is delusional twaddle, there is a long tradition of radical thought in British political life. British tradition is as much Thomas Paine as it is Royalty and aristocracy.
Wandsworth and Richmond Tory councillors might be feeling a little worried this morning.
Wandsworth results have been getting progressively worse. I mentioned this to them and they blew a gasket. Realism is not required. I won't be invited to their parties now, but they have their heads in the sand. London is a Labour power base. A Yellow revival will hurt Tories.
2016 = the year of puncturing the hubris of Etonians, it would seem [amongst other things].
What an idiot Goldsmith was to make that promise in the first place.
Correct. He should have said: I will never stop fighting to stop a 3rd runway. Back me, vote for me, I will be there for you. He is not verbally flexible enough. It is not honesty, it is inflexibility of thought and communication.
My younger daughter has recently announced that she has switched her loyalty from the Tories to the Lib Dems. She was a great fan of Cameron but has little time for May and finds Farron normal and likeable (something I was teasing her about only at tea time yesterday). Clearly she was ahead of the trend.
For the Tories this is a risk. Cameron and Osborne built their majority on the back of the bodies of their erstwhile coalition partners. They did so by repositioning the Tories as a centre party with a liberal social agenda and it played very well in Lib Dem seats.
In contrast May is much more of a traditional Conservative. This has allowed her to pick up some of the support that Cameron had lost to UKIP boosting her standing in the polls to remarkable levels. But are the Tories in danger of swopping the votes they needed to win a majority for ever larger majorities in already safe seats? I think they are and that this result, albeit helped by Zac's stupidity, is a good example of that.
I may not be following my daughter yet but I am massively less enthusiastic about May than I was about Cameron and Osborne. If it wasn't for Ruth...
Fox jr and his girlfriend are both now inclined to the LDs too. Tuition fees are ancient history to them, but Brexit is very real.
There will be reality checks, but this is the start of a long road back for the LDs.
Harborough, and Hinckley and Bosworth look the most winnable seats locally to me.
Brexit was the key for my daughter. She really didn't understand her dad's decision on that at all!
My ideal scenario would be a sensible centre left Lib Dem party becoming the alternative government of choice with Labour collapsing under its incoherence but that possibility seemed to disappear in 2015. Still every great journey starts with a single step....
I can help your daughter out here: you, as a successful professional, had the luxury of viewing Brexit as an academic exercise. A theoretical intellectual teaser.
For her (if not her then her generation, especially those without such a wealthy father, or with a wealthy father who makes their children go it alone), Brexit means job prospects, financial implications, and challenging social and economic conditions with real world application.
Get her on here; we'd love to hear from the reasonable member of your family.
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Leave contained several subsets, including those expecting £350m extra per week for the NHS. Good people, albeit gullible.
The intolerance of some Europhiles and their contempt for their own country was also something to see. For me Brexit was something that sensible people could easily come to differing conclusions on with quite strong arguments on both sides. The extremists of both sides had very little of value to add.
The whole point of the progressive movement since the 50s is that they wanted to throw away pretty much everything that was traditionally seen as British. Everything from morality to drug laws to marriage to architecture had to go, to sweep in a new world in which their views were the mainstream. The EU is just a tool in that continuing battle.
What's the traditionally British pre-1950s approach to drug laws? IIUC prohibition mostly dates from the 60s and 70s, and much of the pressure to do it was international, particularly from the US.
My younger daughter has recently announced that she has switched her loyalty from the Tories to the Lib Dems. She was a great fan of Cameron but has little time for May and finds Farron normal and likeable (something I was teasing her about only at tea time yesterday). Clearly she was ahead of the trend.
For the Tories this is a risk. Cameron and Osborne built their majority on the back of the bodies of their erstwhile coalition partners. They did so by repositioning the Tories as a centre party with a liberal social agenda and it played very well in Lib Dem seats.
In contrast May is much more of a traditional Conservative. This has allowed her to pick up some of the support that Cameron had lost to UKIP boosting her standing in the polls to remarkable levels. But are the Tories in danger of swopping the votes they needed to win a majority for ever larger majorities in already safe seats? I think they are and that this result, albeit helped by Zac's stupidity, is a good example of that.
I may not be following my daughter yet but I am massively less enthusiastic about May than I was about Cameron and Osborne. If it wasn't for Ruth...
Fox jr and his girlfriend are both now inclined to the LDs too. Tuition fees are ancient history to them, but Brexit is very real.
There will be reality checks, but this is the start of a long road back for the LDs.
Harborough, and Hinckley and Bosworth look the most winnable seats locally to me.
Brexit was the key for my daughter. She really didn't understand her dad's decision on that at all!
My ideal scenario would be a sensible centre left Lib Dem party becoming the alternative government of choice with Labour collapsing under its incoherence but that possibility seemed to disappear in 2015. Still every great journey starts with a single step....
I can help your daughter out here: you, as a successful professional, had the luxury of viewing Brexit as an academic exercise. A theoretical intellectual teaser.
For her (if not her then her generation, especially those without such a wealthy father, or with a wealthy father who makes their children go it alone), Brexit means job prospects, financial implications, and challenging social and economic conditions with real world application.
Get her on here; we'd love to hear from the reasonable member of your family.
Marvellous to see PB Tories who were defending Zac's dog whistle mayoral campaign and made excuses for his disgusting MoS front page have now decided they didn't like him all along. Verily, if a week is a long time in politics a six month is a positive aeon of forgetfulness.
@tomcopley: Remember when the prevailing wisdom was that Goldsmith would be almost unbeatable if he ran for mayor? Well a lot's changed in 2016 I guess
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Leave contained several subsets, including those expecting £350m extra per week for the NHS. Good people, albeit gullible.
The intolerance of some Europhiles and their contempt for their own country was also something to see. For me Brexit was something that sensible people could easily come to differing conclusions on with quite strong arguments on both sides. The extremists of both sides had very little of value to add.
What amuses me is the way that nothing about the EU can be good in the eyes of the hardcore Europhobes. If you even dare to mention one small, relatively insignificant way that EU has been positive, you get shouted down by people who know nothing about that particular topic. You cannot be right, because *nothing* good can come out of the EU. Even when you present facts to them, the facts are wrong.
But it's not just the Europhobes; the Europhiles are just as bad. Facts don't matter to the hardcore on either side. It's more akin to religion than politics.
Agreed. I once posted 10 reasons to vote remain as an exercise. It wasn't difficult.
Marvellous to see PB Tories who were defending Zac's dog whistle mayoral campaign and made excuses for his disgusting MoS front page have now decided they didn't like him all along. Verily, if a week is a long time in politics a six month is a positive aeon of forgetfulness.
very "tim" esque.. tarring everyone with the same brush. I never liked Zac, I thought him arrogant and I don't believe in this nonsense of resigning and refighting your seat... and he's now got his come uppance.. as I posted BEFORE you
My younger daughter has recently announced that she has switched her loyalty from the Tories to the Lib Dems. She was a great fan of Cameron but has little time for May and finds Farron normal and likeable (something I was teasing her about only at tea time yesterday). Clearly she was ahead of the trend.
For the Tories this is a risk. Cameron and Osborne built their majority on the back of the bodies of their erstwhile coalition partners. They did so by repositioning the Tories as a centre party with a liberal social agenda and it played very well in Lib Dem seats.
In contrast May is much more of a traditional Conservative. This has allowed her to pick up some of the support that Cameron had lost to UKIP boosting her standing in the polls to remarkable levels. But are the Tories in danger of swopping the votes they needed to win a majority for ever larger majorities in already safe seats? I think they are and that this result, albeit helped by Zac's stupidity, is a good example of that.
I may not be following my daughter yet but I am massively less enthusiastic about May than I was about Cameron and Osborne. If it wasn't for Ruth...
Daily Mirror Tomorrow's front page: Chelsea paid me £50,000 to keep sex abuse secret #tomorrowspaperstoday https://t.co/iSvCy1cqH0
This story is getting bigger pretty much by the day.
Good on Chelsea for lifting the NDA they put him under when they gave him his payout. They shouldn't have put him under one in the first place, but at least they haven't tried to enforce it.
How many other clubs will be dusting off their law files and looking for similar?
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
@tomcopley: Remember when the prevailing wisdom was that Goldsmith would be almost unbeatable if he ran for mayor? Well a lot's changed in 2016 I guess
No, is the answer to that. I don't remember that "prevailing wisdom". Who is he?
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Not quite fair Dr - Corbyn and Abbott were for Remain (at least officially).
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Leave contained several subsets, including those expecting £350m extra per week for the NHS. Good people, albeit gullible.
That's not true either.
How's that well planned, tolerant, soft Brexit thing working out for ya?
Lol Zac. What a bloody fool. Running for Mayor a few months ago and now not even in Parliament. I guess the people of Richmond might actually get an MP who represents them properly now.
Labourlist reporting labour had 1600 members in Richmond park, only polled 1515.
I suspect a poll lower than the membership might well be unique, but Labour members voting LibDem to keep the Tories out certainly isn't; I know plenty who do (although it became rather rarer in 2014-15!)
@tomcopley: Remember when the prevailing wisdom was that Goldsmith would be almost unbeatable if he ran for mayor? Well a lot's changed in 2016 I guess
I don't remember that being the view TBH. The closest people got was doubting whether London was ready for a Muslim mayor.
Zac was always the gentleman stroller to whom things came a little too easy. He never had Boris's hunger for it.
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Not quite fair Dr - Corbyn and Abbott were for Remain (at least officially).
Along with Adams and Macguinness.
Not all intolerant xenophobes are the same.
All together now in the Islington chorus:
"EU nationalism good, British nationalism bad, Irish nationalism good, English nationalism bad, London nationalism good"
This was an ideal site for an LD byelection, but far from unique. I think not so much shy LDs as downweighting in polls. We also see quite a lot of Council byelection victories. As an LD, I will have a spring in my step.
There are a good number of voters repelled by the intolerant, narrow mindedness of the Brexiteers, and alt. right, quite prepared to vote for a different sort of Britain. LDs are not fishing in a shallow pool.
Lessons clearly have not been learned. That sneering attitude from so many Europhiles almost certainly contributed to Remain losing the referendum.
Nope. It is self-evidently true that to oppose membership of the European Union membership means you are intolerant, narrow minded and bigoted.
Basically, a bad person. We have been told, and we should learn.
The nature of the Leave campaign is certainly something about which moral judgements can be made. It is a continuing and indelible stain on all that were involved in it.
Until Leave supporters recognise that pandering to xenophobia as a route to electoral victory has enduring consequences, Britain is condemned to remain divided and weakened indefinitely.
Not all Leavers were intolerant xenophobes, but all intolereant xenophobes were Leavers.
Leave contained several subsets, including those expecting £350m extra per week for the NHS. Good people, albeit gullible.
The intolerance of some Europhiles and their contempt for their own country was also something to see. For me Brexit was something that sensible people could easily come to differing conclusions on with quite strong arguments on both sides. The extremists of both sides had very little of value to add.
What amuses me is the way that nothing about the EU can be good in the eyes of the hardcore Europhobes. If you even dare to mention one small, relatively insignificant way that EU has been positive, you get shouted down by people who know nothing about that particular topic. You cannot be right, because *nothing* good can come out of the EU. Even when you present facts to them, the facts are wrong.
But it's not just the Europhobes; the Europhiles are just as bad. Facts don't matter to the hardcore on either side. It's more akin to religion than politics.
Agreed. I once posted 10 reasons to vote remain as an exercise. It wasn't difficult.
I believe Boris found his "why I would vote for Sarah Olney" column for theTelegraph quite persuasive!
Labourlist reporting labour had 1600 members in Richmond park, only polled 1515.
I suspect a poll lower than the membership might well be unique, but Labour members voting LibDem to keep the Tories out certainly isn't; I know plenty who do (although it became rather rarer in 2014-15!)
2016 = the year of puncturing the hubris of Etonians, it would seem [amongst other things].
What an idiot Goldsmith was to make that promise in the first place.
Correct. He should have said: I will never stop fighting to stop a 3rd runway. Back me, vote for me, I will be there for you. He is not verbally flexible enough. It is not honesty, it is inflexibility of thought and communication.
And probably should not have said, as the campaign started, that he agreed it was a silly promise and if he had his time again would not have made it in the first place? He as good as told them he was wasting their time.
2016 = the year of puncturing the hubris of Etonians, it would seem [amongst other things].
What an idiot Goldsmith was to make that promise in the first place.
Correct. He should have said: I will never stop fighting to stop a 3rd runway. Back me, vote for me, I will be there for you. He is not verbally flexible enough. It is not honesty, it is inflexibility of thought and communication.
And probably should not have said, as the campaign started, that he agreed it was a silly promise and if he had his time again would not have made it in the first place? He as good as told them he was wasting their time.
Yup. How much of the swing waa because he wasted everyone's time and money.
"Calling Remainers unpatriotic is equally offensive, we just believe in a more open minded Britain."
I've no problem with Remainers. I shall be having a drink with some this afternoon and there's never been rancour. Real life is far more important than politics.
There does seem to be a worrying undercurrent in some area to demonise political opponents. Previously, this was the province of the extreme left and right. Remainers are not traitorous pig-dogs and Leavers are not thick knuckle-dragging Neanderthals. Zac's mistake in the Mayoral election was always to portray Sadiq as a hard-line extremist. He may be a hard-line politician but that's all (saying what the audience want to hear).
I do begin to fear that there is a split developing in this country. Londoners have always been regarded up here as effete and posh - a convenient stereotype - but more in sympathy than anger. But the stereotype of Leavers as stupid and racist has ratcheted things up. It allows the democratic will of the country to be disregarded with justification. Therein lie future problems.
LDs sense an opportunity, but they need to be careful. If they vote against Article 50, it won't be for good reasons. A sense of moral superiority may keep you warm, but friends it does not make. I speak as a former Labour voter up to Tony's appearance, and an LD voter up to 2015.
Congratulations to the LDs, but Richmond is Richmond. Not a barometer of anything.
Comments
Admittedly only to knobs.
Well done to Sarah Olney and the Lib Dem GOTV, a hard fought and well deserved triumph.
I don't think the things you mention would have made a Lab-without-Brown deal impossible, though. Lab could have picked a caretaker, and cut a deal, and that person would probably have been subsequenty elected by the membership. If somebody else had won and refused to honour the deal, that would have been the end of the deal. The fact that an agreement may subsequently break up doesn't necessarily mean you can't make one and hope it holds. What killed the thing off was that Lab just didn't have the numbers, especially when Tom Watson and a few other high-ranking Lab politicians started implying they wouldn't vote for the LibDems' quid-pro-quo.
Lab-without-Corbyn might actually be doable, but the problem is that for that situation to come about Lab needs to have done far better than expected, and it would be hard for Labour to knife an unexpectedly triumphant leader. It's a different situation from Brown, who started out with a majority, so the only way was down.
I'm aware of focus groups conducted that where the voters just flat out refused to believe some of Corbyn and McDonnell's more choice words.
'Nobody would say that' or 'Must have been taken out of context'
you get quoted by the Guardian
you're now officially an "expert"
your opinion can be safely ignored :-)
Britain's hokey cokey with the continent is one of the enduring themes of our history, since the Romans arrived.
I just think that when they're everywhere, feeding into the narrative that Corbyn is a dangerous extremist with repellent views, people will come to believe them. Especially if he tries to deny them and they are proven to be true (cf Brown's famous 'no more "Tory" boom and bust').
Yes they may lose a few votes to the Lib Dems but Labour is going to have far bigger problems up north, and that may allow the Tories to grab a few seats where they are currently second.
As for Soft Brexit, that isn't a position you really can campaign for at this moment. You campaign to be noticed then shift to soft Brexit once exit is inevitable.... Campaigning to rejoin would be pointless then, campaigning to stay in touch with Europe far far easier.
there wont be any more resignings on principle and wasting taxpayers money
https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/804586576483381248
Congratulations to the Lib Dems.
2016 = the year of puncturing the hubris of Etonians, it would seem [amongst other things].
What an idiot Goldsmith was to make that promise in the first place.
Ergo, almost nothing can be read into the defeat of a not very clever but very vain Tory rich boy by the 8th Lib Dem in Parliament.
On the way up and in power you could get your knob out in a restaurant and everyone would laugh. If you lost a seat, you would be arrested.
Zac has gone from hero to zero. That's politics.
Kipling:
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same.
Politicians rarely do. Nor do the media and voters.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38171160
The thought that "No true Scot opposes independence" is very offensive to Unionist Scots, and the parallel with Britain in Europe is apposite. Calling Remainers unpatriotic is equally offensive, we just believe in a more open minded Britain.
But it's not just the Europhobes; the Europhiles are just as bad. Facts don't matter to the hardcore on either side. It's more akin to religion than politics.
It is demoralising for the troops and is analogous to Lab saying: "we don't want an early GE because we would probably lose".
Sanders in Michigan the only thing that compares.
For her (if not her then her generation, especially those without such a wealthy father, or with a wealthy father who makes their children go it alone), Brexit means job prospects, financial implications, and challenging social and economic conditions with real world application.
Get her on here; we'd love to hear from the reasonable member of your family.
>Olney said, she had to learn her new job very quickly: “I haven’t got the faintest clue what happens now. I didn’t expect it so I haven’t really made any plans.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/02/lib-dems-unseat-zac-goldsmith-in-richmond-park-byelection
Daily Mirror
Tomorrow's front page: Chelsea paid me £50,000 to keep sex abuse secret #tomorrowspaperstoday https://t.co/iSvCy1cqH0
https://twitter.com/naebD/status/804589117149499393
Marvellous to see PB Tories who were defending Zac's dog whistle mayoral campaign and made excuses for his disgusting MoS front page have now decided they didn't like him all along. Verily, if a week is a long time in politics a six month is a positive aeon of forgetfulness.
HAahahahahahaha
Britain Elects @britainelects 9h9 hours ago
Liberal Democrat GAIN Southbourne (Chichester) from Conservative.
Britain Elects @britainelects 9h9 hours ago
Southbourne (Chichester) result:
LDEM: 57.7% (+15.8)
CON: 25.8% (-32.3)
UKIP: 11.8% (+11.8)
LAB: 4.7% (+4.7)
Britain Elects @britainelects 9h9 hours ago
Conservative GAIN Ferndown (Dorset) from UKIP.
So Befair prediction wrong again.
Was there a collapse in the Labour vote in this by-election - or was it always that bad?
Good on Chelsea for lifting the NDA they put him under when they gave him his payout. They shouldn't have put him under one in the first place, but at least they haven't tried to enforce it.
How many other clubs will be dusting off their law files and looking for similar?
Who is he?
Now what does this mean for the next betting occasions in Austria and Italy:
1) Once again Betfair and the polls were wrong - so van der Bellen and Yes being at 3 and above are surely worth a few pounds.
2) The anti-government candidate won - so Hofer and No should win.
https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/804606951011340288
Guy. We're still leaving. LOL
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/804510267522617344
Zac was always the gentleman stroller to whom things came a little too easy. He never had Boris's hunger for it.
#RichmondPark
All together now in the Islington chorus:
"EU nationalism good, British nationalism bad, Irish nationalism good, English nationalism bad, London nationalism good"
Boris has had his usual ups and downs.
The Mogg continues to do well.
Are there any other MPs who went to Eton ?
Nov 2 TOPPING:
off topic I think the 6/4 LDs in Richmond is good value
Nov 2 TOPPING:
LDs throwing a lot, and I mean a lot at it.
Not quite @Morris_Dancer F1 status but, modestly, not dreadful.
I can't recall Clifton-Brown ever being in the spotlight.
So not Eton's finest.
Speaking of which, a little ramble about this odd season and the next is up here:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/a-look-back-at-2016-and-ahead-to-2017.html
"Calling Remainers unpatriotic is equally offensive, we just believe in a more open minded Britain."
I've no problem with Remainers. I shall be having a drink with some this afternoon and there's never been rancour. Real life is far more important than politics.
There does seem to be a worrying undercurrent in some area to demonise political opponents. Previously, this was the province of the extreme left and right. Remainers are not traitorous pig-dogs and Leavers are not thick knuckle-dragging Neanderthals. Zac's mistake in the Mayoral election was always to portray Sadiq as a hard-line extremist. He may be a hard-line politician but that's all (saying what the audience want to hear).
I do begin to fear that there is a split developing in this country. Londoners have always been regarded up here as effete and posh - a convenient stereotype - but more in sympathy than anger. But the stereotype of Leavers as stupid and racist has ratcheted things up. It allows the democratic will of the country to be disregarded with justification. Therein lie future problems.
LDs sense an opportunity, but they need to be careful. If they vote against Article 50, it won't be for good reasons. A sense of moral superiority may keep you warm, but friends it does not make. I speak as a former Labour voter up to Tony's appearance, and an LD voter up to 2015.
Congratulations to the LDs, but Richmond is Richmond. Not a barometer of anything.
Tories believed Zac had a 10 point lead with two weeks to go, then debate became all about Brexit. Knocking up yesterday was "a disaster".
Jesse Norman
Bill Wiggin (not in the government)
Philip Dunne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Dunne_(Ludlow_MP)