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  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCNormanS: Brexit likely to lead to "lower trade flows, lower investment and lower net migration and hence lower output" - @OBR_UK
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    PlatoSaid said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    PlatoSaid said:



    He's p to race-baiters.

    Carry on believing what suits you, Hillary lost. I could expend pixels listing her failings too.
    Do you think he'll win in 2020, and if so, why?

    Personally, I expect him to lose spectacularly. I wouldn't be overly surprised if he's not even nominated if he goes on reneging on campaign promises as he has this last fortnight.
    What has he reneged on so far?
    - Prosecuting Hillary
    - Paris Climate deal withdrawal
    - The Wall (or it not necessarily being a wall)
    - Repealing Obamacare

    To name a few.
    Golly, David - you're a very sophisticated chap and coming out with this?

    1. His AG once apptd will decide on a Special Prosecutor - he can't do it as it's not been within POTUS powers since pre Watergate. You know that.

    2. I haven't seen anything about Paris chatter wise - I get hundreds of US Trump tweets a day so clearly missed this somehow.

    3. The Wall that.

    4. The pre-existing conditions and kids up to 26yrs old were in the original GOP motions that never got a look in re the ACA given Obama did an Exec Order. Another none issue.

    I'm genuinely surprised that you've suggested such nonsense.
    1. I know that but it's what he pledged all the same. He didn't row back on it until elected. That counts as a promise in my book. Check the quote from the debate.

    2. He said he'd withdraw; now he has an 'open mind' about it.

    3. Drones and CCTV are not a wall. Again, revisit what he was saying in his rallies. He promised a wall (and that Mexico would pay - and no, he can't deliver on that too but then we both knew it at the time).

    4. He said he'd repeal it; he's now looking to 'amend' it.

    You can argue details about all these but as Rove said, once you're arguing details, you're losing; you can argue that the current policies are more sensible than the campaign pledges - I would - but they're broken promises all the same.

    Also worth noting that since the election he has settled the Trump university case when previously he said it was groundless and that he would fight it all the way.
    To be fair to him there (and it's better to be fair where one should be as the weaknesses are starker) that sort of thing is always said in litigation regardless of merits.
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    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_P said:

    FPT in response to people saying the 'herd' (thought that word had gone) on PB are wrong.

    Also worth pointing out that Betfair, the largest political betting markets in history were "wrong", as was the the popular vote in the US.

    To claim PB was a wrong bubble is, in a word, wrong

    The white supwemacist waycist won. Get over it.

    Advice to live by, SO. We have a tough 8 years to come and the best way to deal with it is to stop fighting yesterday's battles.

    I will call out race-baiters where I find them. That is not yesterday's battle. That is an ongoing one. The fact that you are one of the few righties on here who has forcefully criticised Trump for his embrace of white supremacists and anti-Semites is genuinely shocking to me. I made the mistake of believing that when Corbyn was quite correctly being given stick for his fondness for anti-Semites it was being done from a position of principle not partisanship. You live and learn, I guess.

    Other people can speak for themselves. Personally, I feel pretty detached from the politics of a foreign country, whereas I don't feel so detached from politics in my own country. Corbyn is a threat to me and mine in a way that a foreign politician isn't. Unquestionably, Trump has said some awful things, but that's not going to alter the result.

    Donald Trump is going to have much more affect on you and yours than Jeremy Corbyn ever will.

    Neither Republicans nor Democrats align very well with my own political views.

    I dislike the way Republicans engage in electoral shenanigans, pander to racists, are opposed to abortion in almost every circumstance, prioritise corporate welfare, and support creationism. I dislike the way Democrats champion illegal immigration, enforce political correctness, support affirmative action, and support abortion in almost every circumstance.
    Don't think I recall agreeing with such a wide-ranging statement so completely before!
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    nunu said:

    timmo said:

    President of South Korea has just resigned.

    Wow - what in Hammond's statement pissed him off that much?
    he's stopping doggy exports.
    Isn't it due to the SK Presidents advisors being a shadowy religious cult? a bit like the Brexiteers...
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,625
    Consensus here, chancellor/OBR being overly cautious or front loading as much bad news as possible.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_P said:

    FPT in response to people saying the 'herd' (thought that word had gone) on PB are wrong.

    Also worth pointing out that Betfair, the largest political betting markets in history were "wrong", as was the the popular vote in the US.

    To claim PB was a wrong bubble is, in a word, wrong

    The white supwemacist waycist won. Get over it.

    Advice to live by, SO. We have a tough 8 years to come and the best way to deal with it is to stop fighting yesterday's battles.

    I will call out race-baiters where I find them. That is not yesterday's battle. That is an ongoing one. The fact that you are one of the few righties on here who has forcefully criticised Trump for his embrace of white supremacists and anti-Semites is genuinely shocking to me. I made the mistake of believing that when Corbyn was quite correctly being given stick for his fondness for anti-Semites it was being done from a position of principle not partisanship. You live and learn, I guess.

    Other people can speak for themselves. Personally, I feel pretty detached from the politics of a foreign country, whereas I don't feel so detached from politics in my own country. Corbyn is a threat to me and mine in a way that a foreign politician isn't. Unquestionably, Trump has said some awful things, but that's not going to alter the result.

    Donald Trump is going to have much more affect on you and yours than Jeremy Corbyn ever will.

    Neither Republicans nor Democrats align very well with my own political views.

    I dislike the way Republicans engage in electoral shenanigans, pander to racists, are opposed to abortion in almost every circumstance, prioritise corporate welfare, and support creationism. I dislike the way Democrats champion illegal immigration, enforce political correctness, support affirmative action, and support abortion in almost every circumstance.
    Don't think I recall agreeing with such a wide-ranging statement so completely before!
    Ditto. There seems to be a large chasm between the two parties into which most Brits would probably fall into.
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    PlatoSaid said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Patrick said:

    When something motivates you to speak up there are options for what you say:
    1. Just say what you want to say, get it off your chest. Emote.
    2. Think a bit about your audience, tailor your emoting a bit to them.
    3. Think what actual outcomes or actions you wish to induce from your audience and tailor your words logically and precisely to optimise the chances that that is what you'll get. No emoting at all. But it may SEEM that way.

    Lefties and Hillary C are always in box 1. You're a racist, Trump's douchebag, nobody decent can vote Trump, etc, etc. It feels awesome to emote. It's also electorally utterly counterproductive. The Deplorables simply hear 'you hate me too'. Hers was a 100% box 1 campaign.

    Trump gives me every impression of living entirely in box 3. He's a zen master of trolling and chain-yanking. I think his 'gaffes' and tweets are very carefully thought through. The bien-pensant crowd misunderstimate him at their peril (to quote another one they misunderestimated!). Trump's was a 100% box 3 campaign

    Glad you reposted that - I honestly can't understand how smart people here can't see it. It smacks me in the face everytime he does it.

    Every tweet is designed to distract/dead cat/create a trap/troll/cause an emotional response.

    And yet 90% of Leftists and NeverTrumpers fall straight into outrage/call him stupid.

    Their entire reaction is predicated on their evidence free comfort blanket that a billionaire property developer/14 series reality star [how many last that long?]/non-politico killed off 16 professional rivals and now POTUS Elect ...is a nitwit.

    Yeah, right. It's all some weird thing that's entirely unconnected with his talent for connecting with people/business nous over 70yrs. And they think they're smarter sat in the chairs of their cubicles - good grief.

    He's clearly smart. He is also a crook, a sexual predator, a friend to white supremacists and anti-semites, a mocker of the disabled and a liar. In your world, that is not a problem. You like him for it. But other people don't. You are just going to have to accept that and live with it. Not everyone snuggles up to race-baiters.

    Carry on believing what suits you, Hillary lost. I could expend pixels listing her failings too.
    Do you think he'll win in 2020, and if so, why?

    Personally, I expect him to lose spectacularly. I wouldn't be overly surprised if he's not even nominated if he goes on reneging on campaign promises as he has this last fortnight.
    What has he reneged on so far?
    'Lock her up, lock her up'
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,625

    PlatoSaid said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Patrick said:

    When something motivates you to speak up there are options for what you say:
    1. Just say what you want to say, get it off your chest. Emote.
    2. Think a bit about your audience, tailor your emoting a bit to them.
    3. Think what actual outcomes or actions you wish to induce from your audience and tailor your words logically and precisely to optimise the chances that that is what you'll get. No emoting at all. But it may SEEM that way.

    Lefties and Hillary C are always in box 1. You're a racist, Trump's douchebag, nobody decent can vote Trump, etc, etc. It feels awesome to emote. It's also electorally utterly counterproductive. The Deplorables simply hear 'you hate me too'. Hers was a 100% box 1 campaign.

    Trump gives me every impression of living entirely in box 3. He's a zen master of trolling and chain-yanking. I think his 'gaffes' and tweets are very carefully thought through. The bien-pensant crowd misunderstimate him at their peril (to quote another one they misunderestimated!). Trump's was a 100% box 3 campaign

    Glad you reposted that - I honestly can't understand how smart people here can't see it. It smacks me in the face everytime he does it.

    Every tweet is designed to distract/dead cat/create a trap/troll/cause an emotional response.

    And yet 90% of Leftists and NeverTrumpers fall straight into outrage/call him stupid.

    Their entire reaction is predicated on their evidence free comfort blanket that a billionaire property developer/14 series reality star [how many last that long?]/non-politico killed off 16 professional rivals and now POTUS Elect ...is a nitwit.

    Yeah, right. It's all some weird thing that's entirely unconnected with his talent for connecting with people/business nous over 70yrs. And they think they're smarter sat in the chairs of their cubicles - good grief.

    He's clearly smart. He is also a crook, a sexual predator, a friend to white supremacists and anti-semites, a mocker of the disabled and a liar. In your world, that is not a problem. You like him for it. But other people don't. You are just going to have to accept that and live with it. Not everyone snuggles up to race-baiters.

    Carry on believing what suits you, Hillary lost. I could expend pixels listing her failings too.
    Do you think he'll win in 2020, and if so, why?

    Personally, I expect him to lose spectacularly. I wouldn't be overly surprised if he's not even nominated if he goes on reneging on campaign promises as he has this last fortnight.
    What has he reneged on so far?
    'Lock her up, lock her up'
    "You'd be in jail"
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068

    rcs1000 said:

    There are a lot of events between now and next May, but absent a big external shock, I just don't see the way she can move the FN score from 29-30% where it has been for three years up north of 40%.

    She doesn't need to. She needs to move her personal score up which is a different matter.
    The FN, in polls, scores the same as MLP.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,920

    PlatoSaid said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    PlatoSaid said:



    Do you think he'll win in 2020, and if so, why?

    Personally, I expect him to lose spectacularly. I wouldn't be overly surprised if he's not even nominated if he goes on reneging on campaign promises as he has this last fortnight.

    What has he reneged on so far?
    - Prosecuting Hillary
    - Paris Climate deal withdrawal
    - The Wall (or it not necessarily being a wall)
    - Repealing Obamacare

    To name a few.
    Golly, David - you're a very sophisticated chap and coming out with this?

    1. His AG once apptd will decide on a Special Prosecutor - he can't do it as it's not been within POTUS powers since pre Watergate. You know that.

    2. I haven't seen anything about Paris chatter wise - I get hundreds of US Trump tweets a day so clearly missed this somehow.

    3. The Wall isn't about bricks like China or East Germany - it's what's appropriate for the terrain vs risk. So a 15ft fence or a solid barrier or drones/CCTV watching 500miles in the desert as required. No one but anti-Trump literalists thinks he's building a la Hadrian. We both know that.

    4. The pre-existing conditions and kids up to 26yrs old were in the original GOP motions that never got a look in re the ACA given Obama did an Exec Order. Another none issue.

    I'm genuinely surprised that you've suggested such nonsense.
    1. I know that but it's what he pledged all the same. He didn't row back on it until elected. That counts as a promise in my book. Check the quote from the debate.

    2. He said he'd withdraw; now he has an 'open mind' about it.

    3. Drones and CCTV are not a wall. Again, revisit what he was saying in his rallies. He promised a wall (and that Mexico would pay - and no, he can't deliver on that too but then we both knew it at the time).

    4. He said he'd repeal it; he's now looking to 'amend' it.

    You can argue details about all these but as Rove said, once you're arguing details, you're losing; you can argue that the current policies are more sensible than the campaign pledges - I would - but they're broken promises all the same.
    I think Obamacare is going to get repealed... Current republican planas I understand it is to repeal with a two year deadline and use those two years to come up with a replacement... Or not as the case may be.

    Trump may realise the political implications of kicking 20+m off health insurance- but he can hardly veto a repeal bill. Hi supporters would surely notice that...

    Saying amend as opposed to repeal is just flim flam. He means we will keep all the popular bits without the unpopular bits... But you need both obviously for it to work.
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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    Hammond's borrowing another £122bn to deal with the Brexit clusterfuck, but could still squeeze out a few quid to try to bribe Sadiq into grubbing up the cycle superhighway. What a twat.

    http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/segregated-cycle-path-should-be-ripped-up-chancellor-tells-london-mayor-301330

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    LennonLennon Posts: 1,736
    matt said:

    MaxPB said:

    He's moving the budget from spring to autumn. Not cool, Phillip. Not cool at all.

    If the tax year aligned with the calendar year as a follow-on to that, I'd be interested. That would be properly useful.
    And given the reason that it's April 6th is due to the change of calendar (circa 1750) I think that it's fair to say that it's long overdue!
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    timmo said:

    President of South Korea has just resigned.

    Wow - what in Hammond's statement pissed him off that much?
    This is where a 'like' button would be handy.
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Hammond's borrowing another £122bn to deal with the Brexit clusterfuck, but could still squeeze out a few quid to try to bribe Sadiq into grubbing up the cycle superhighway. What a twat.

    http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/segregated-cycle-path-should-be-ripped-up-chancellor-tells-london-mayor-301330

    Alleged, perhaps, claimed. Is there a material verifiable fact there?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068
    MaxPB said:

    Consensus here, chancellor/OBR being overly cautious or front loading as much bad news as possible.

    Truth be told, the future is so uncertain that the bands need to be really wide.

    War in the Middle East, oil to $100, they're far too optimistic.
    US sucks in massive quantities of imports on the back of stimulus spending, tax cuts, they're too pessimistic.
    US smacks tariffs on Mexican and Chinese goods, big budget and current account deficits lead to substantially weaker dollar, too optimistic.
    etc. etc. etc.

    We can come out Brexit much stronger. We can come out much weaker. So much is unknown.
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    Good to see the white supremacist assassin of Jo Cox get a life means life sentence. The bravery she showed that day was truly remarkable. I hope that at some stage knowing that she died a hero will give her family a degree of comfort.

    Hear, hear.
    I'm sure it does. I'm very glad he's got the sentence he deserves.
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    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Consensus here, chancellor/OBR being overly cautious or front loading as much bad news as possible.

    Truth be told, the future is so uncertain that the bands need to be really wide.

    War in the Middle East, oil to $100, they're far too optimistic.
    US sucks in massive quantities of imports on the back of stimulus spending, tax cuts, they're too pessimistic.
    US smacks tariffs on Mexican and Chinese goods, big budget and current account deficits lead to substantially weaker dollar, too optimistic.
    etc. etc. etc.

    We can come out Brexit much stronger. We can come out much weaker. So much is unknown.
    Yes, a sub-10% chance of any recession in the next three years - which is effectively what the OBR is saying - seems pretty optimistic.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    Hammond is competently on top of his brief. Tremendous answers to questions from both sides of the house.

    I am very impressed.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,625
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Consensus here, chancellor/OBR being overly cautious or front loading as much bad news as possible.

    Truth be told, the future is so uncertain that the bands need to be really wide.

    War in the Middle East, oil to $100, they're far too optimistic.
    US sucks in massive quantities of imports on the back of stimulus spending, tax cuts, they're too pessimistic.
    US smacks tariffs on Mexican and Chinese goods, big budget and current account deficits lead to substantially weaker dollar, too optimistic.
    etc. etc. etc.

    We can come out Brexit much stronger. We can come out much weaker. So much is unknown.
    Agreed. But purely on a numbers basis its hard to see how debt will rise to 90% when inflation is running at 2-3% and growth at 1-2%. The calculation doesn't hold water.
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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    matt said:


    Hammond's borrowing another £122bn to deal with the Brexit clusterfuck, but could still squeeze out a few quid to try to bribe Sadiq into grubbing up the cycle superhighway. What a twat.

    http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/segregated-cycle-path-should-be-ripped-up-chancellor-tells-london-mayor-301330

    Alleged, perhaps, claimed. Is there a material verifiable fact there?
    Said in a public meeting by an authoritative source. No denial from the Hamster.

    Let's remember it was he who wanted to increase motorway speeds to 80 mph, with no regard to the concomitant increase in death and injury, and coined the lie "war on the motorist".
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Yes, a sub-10% chance of any recession in the next three years - which is effectively what the OBR is saying - seems pretty optimistic.

    True but they are also assuming that when the economy grows is does so pretty slowly.
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    Lennon said:

    matt said:

    MaxPB said:

    He's moving the budget from spring to autumn. Not cool, Phillip. Not cool at all.

    If the tax year aligned with the calendar year as a follow-on to that, I'd be interested. That would be properly useful.
    And given the reason that it's April 6th is due to the change of calendar (circa 1750) I think that it's fair to say that it's long overdue!
    Sort of. IIRC, at one time, the official start of the year was on Lady Day (?) i.e. March 25, rather than Jan 1 (with the first months having the year, for example, "1687/8"). Presumably the tax year was already running on that cycle and April 6 is the continuation of that, adjusted for the change to the Gregorian calendar?
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Watch this space, Mike? The only space Osborne is likely to take up is as a peer in the Lords. Unlike Churchill who had charisma in abundance, nobody is likely to hire a not very inspired former chancellor who's vision was always flat.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr P,

    "OBR estimate that Brexit - as opposed to other changes & policy decisions - adds a cumulative £68bn to borrowing."

    What touching faith you have in financial forecasts. I have a friend who'd like to interest you in a sure-fire investment. Guaranteed to make you a fortune. Please send all you bank details.

    Seriously, could you acquaint me with a Government forecast in the Autumn statement or Budget that hasn't been amended within months, not years?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,625

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Consensus here, chancellor/OBR being overly cautious or front loading as much bad news as possible.

    Truth be told, the future is so uncertain that the bands need to be really wide.

    War in the Middle East, oil to $100, they're far too optimistic.
    US sucks in massive quantities of imports on the back of stimulus spending, tax cuts, they're too pessimistic.
    US smacks tariffs on Mexican and Chinese goods, big budget and current account deficits lead to substantially weaker dollar, too optimistic.
    etc. etc. etc.

    We can come out Brexit much stronger. We can come out much weaker. So much is unknown.
    Yes, a sub-10% chance of any recession in the next three years - which is effectively what the OBR is saying - seems pretty optimistic.
    Their published figures don't price a recession in, which is why they don't add up. It feels like the debt figures are dependent on a recession but the GDP figures don't show one.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,978

    FPT in response to people saying the 'herd' (thought that word had gone) on PB are wrong.

    [smug mode on]
    I didn't get it wrong... :)
    [smug mode off]
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    Tim Farron has all the physical charm of a lamprey.....

    http://tinyurl.com/hplj45x
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    edited November 2016
    taffys said:

    Yes, a sub-10% chance of any recession in the next three years - which is effectively what the OBR is saying - seems pretty optimistic.

    True but they are also assuming that when the economy grows is does so pretty slowly.

    They are, which is why I agree with rcs that their forecasting is far too central-loaded.
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    One thing that is, to my mind, glaringly missing from the OBR growth assumptions and the Chancellor's debt projections is the next recession. Sure, about 2% growth across the period is reasonable - right up until the now overdue downturn comes along. And then it's all for nought. So what's the point? Why can't the OBR and HMT recognise the reality of cycles in economics? We only ever seem to plan for sunny weather.
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    edited November 2016

    Lennon said:

    matt said:

    MaxPB said:

    He's moving the budget from spring to autumn. Not cool, Phillip. Not cool at all.

    If the tax year aligned with the calendar year as a follow-on to that, I'd be interested. That would be properly useful.
    And given the reason that it's April 6th is due to the change of calendar (circa 1750) I think that it's fair to say that it's long overdue!
    Sort of. IIRC, at one time, the official start of the year was on Lady Day (?) i.e. March 25, rather than Jan 1 (with the first months having the year, for example, "1687/8"). Presumably the tax year was already running on that cycle and April 6 is the continuation of that, adjusted for the change to the Gregorian calendar?
    Yes, that is correct. It was supposed to have been adjusted to April 7 in 1900 to account for the "missed" leap year but was deemed too much effort.

    There is a precedent for countries changing their tax year. Ireland used to be on a April-March year like us but changed in 2002 to Jan-Dec by having a "short" tax year in 2001.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Consensus here, chancellor/OBR being overly cautious or front loading as much bad news as possible.

    Truth be told, the future is so uncertain that the bands need to be really wide.

    War in the Middle East, oil to $100, they're far too optimistic.
    US sucks in massive quantities of imports on the back of stimulus spending, tax cuts, they're too pessimistic.
    US smacks tariffs on Mexican and Chinese goods, big budget and current account deficits lead to substantially weaker dollar, too optimistic.
    etc. etc. etc.

    We can come out Brexit much stronger. We can come out much weaker. So much is unknown.
    Agreed. But purely on a numbers basis its hard to see how debt will rise to 90% when inflation is running at 2-3% and growth at 1-2%. The calculation doesn't hold water.
    Yes nominal growth of 4-5% means debt-to-GDP comes down quite nicely.
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    I'm basically a Tory, even if I am now a member of another party but I find May rather uninspiring. Hammond is not going to light any fires but he seems very competent.

    But as a team, they would not be strong favourites to win any election they care to call by an absolute landslide were the opposition anything at all to write home about.

    The poster tweets with Corbyn on them over the past few days must surely make anyone who isn't a paid up Tory who likes a one-party state cringe and bang head on desk?
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    Who were the people sat behind the Shadow Chancellor? I know I'm a full-time political nerd but I don't recognise half the Labour 'front bench'
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,978
    Just popping in. My 45day guarantee from Travelex expires on Monday and I need a steer on GBP/USD. Will GBP rise or fall over the next six weeks? I know there's an upcoming Fed rate rise.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    Lennon said:

    matt said:

    MaxPB said:

    He's moving the budget from spring to autumn. Not cool, Phillip. Not cool at all.

    If the tax year aligned with the calendar year as a follow-on to that, I'd be interested. That would be properly useful.
    And given the reason that it's April 6th is due to the change of calendar (circa 1750) I think that it's fair to say that it's long overdue!
    Sort of. IIRC, at one time, the official start of the year was on Lady Day (?) i.e. March 25, rather than Jan 1 (with the first months having the year, for example, "1687/8"). Presumably the tax year was already running on that cycle and April 6 is the continuation of that, adjusted for the change to the Gregorian calendar?
    Think it is. The City I believe objected to having to pay tax 11 days early (as 11 days had "vanished" from the previous September) so March 25th (Old New Year's Day so to speak) became March 25th plus 11 equals April 5th, leaving April 6th as first day of the new new tax year. Hasn't moved since.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    If I were Chancellor, I'd used Brexit as cover for anything financially bad for the next four years. I wonder if any politician has considered this?
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,899
    Dim Farron "Nobody voted for hard BREXIT"
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,442
    Great news that parasite lettings agents will be banned from levying spurious fees from their tenants.

    Otherwise, the government appears to be in a Brexit hole of its own making, and we were today told that they are buying a new spade.
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    Patrick said:

    One thing that is, to my mind, glaringly missing from the OBR growth assumptions and the Chancellor's debt projections is the next recession. Sure, about 2% growth across the period is reasonable - right up until the now overdue downturn comes along. And then it's all for nought. So what's the point? Why can't the OBR and HMT recognise the reality of cycles in economics? We only ever seem to plan for sunny weather.

    Show me an economist who forecast the last recession (apart from Capital Economics).
    Economists live in a world where cycles do not exist.
    Rather like Climate Scientists
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There are a lot of events between now and next May, but absent a big external shock, I just don't see the way she can move the FN score from 29-30% where it has been for three years up north of 40%.

    She doesn't need to. She needs to move her personal score up which is a different matter.
    The FN, in polls, scores the same as MLP.
    And how does MLP's past record in Presidential elections compare with that? She doesn't have one so there's a big unknown in that assumption.

    In the regional elections she more than doubled her first round personal vote from 18% to 41% between 2010 and 2015 and outperformed the party as a whole.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068
    viewcode said:

    Just popping in. My 45day guarantee from Travelex expires on Monday and I need a steer on GBP/USD. Will GBP rise or fall over the next six weeks? I know there's an upcoming Fed rate rise.

    It will probably rise or fall. But it might stay the same.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,625
    IanB2 said:

    Great news that parasite lettings agents will be banned from levying spurious fees from their tenants.

    Otherwise, the government appears to be in a Brexit hole of its own making, and we were today told that they are buying a new spade.

    Additionally parasite landlords won't be able to pass on any additional costs if Scotland is anything to go by where rents haven't gone up despite banning fees already.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited November 2016

    Who were the people sat behind the Shadow Chancellor? I know I'm a full-time political nerd but I don't recognise half the Labour 'front bench'

    They're the ones you should be backing in the Next Labour Leader sweepstakes :)
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    MaxPB said:

    Consensus here, chancellor/OBR being overly cautious or front loading as much bad news as possible.

    Does their figure include the payments into the EU continuing as before over that period ?
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,899

    Who were the people sat behind the Shadow Chancellor? I know I'm a full-time political nerd but I don't recognise half the Labour 'front bench'

    The next party leader Clive Lewis was one
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    Just popping in. My 45day guarantee from Travelex expires on Monday and I need a steer on GBP/USD. Will GBP rise or fall over the next six weeks? I know there's an upcoming Fed rate rise.

    It will probably rise or fall. But it might stay the same.
    An economist speaks....
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,625
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    Just popping in. My 45day guarantee from Travelex expires on Monday and I need a steer on GBP/USD. Will GBP rise or fall over the next six weeks? I know there's an upcoming Fed rate rise.

    It will probably rise or fall. But it might stay the same.
    I've seen reports less useful!
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    timmo said:

    President of South Korea has just resigned.

    Wow - what in Hammond's statement pissed him off that much?
    Isn't "he" a "she"?

    Though oddly I read something about the President's office having bought lots of "little blue pills" to "treat altitude sickness". Good stiff drink was the old remedy.
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    This is going to be simply unsustainable

    https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/801437044912300032
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    EUR/USD Parity? its at 105.5 today...
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    Great news that parasite lettings agents will be banned from levying spurious fees from their tenants.

    Otherwise, the government appears to be in a Brexit hole of its own making, and we were today told that they are buying a new spade.

    Additionally parasite landlords won't be able to pass on any additional costs if Scotland is anything to go by where rents haven't gone up despite banning fees already.
    Indeed, it's an excellent move. The credit checks and guarantors are to protect the landlord so perfectly logical they should pay. And even if it pushes rents a little higher it still improves cash flow for tenants, who by definition don't have much capital (otherwise they'd presumably buy)
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There are a lot of events between now and next May, but absent a big external shock, I just don't see the way she can move the FN score from 29-30% where it has been for three years up north of 40%.

    She doesn't need to. She needs to move her personal score up which is a different matter.
    The FN, in polls, scores the same as MLP.
    And how does MLP's past record in Presidential elections compare with that? She doesn't have one so there's a big unknown in that assumption.

    In the regional elections she more than doubled her first round personal vote from 18% to 41% between 2010 and 2015 and outperformed the party as a whole.
    But that merely emphasises that that is her home region, where her personal vote is strong.

    I guess there is a small, but by no means impossible, scenario where MLP ends up President but with minimal support in the French Parliament. The Senate, with its indirect electoral system, is likely to elect zero Front National Senators. The National Assembly, similarly, could end up with the FN having just a handful of seats.

    Given Parliament is able call a vote of No Confidence and bring down the ministers appointed by the President, this would severely diminish MLP's powers, were she to get elected.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,625
    taffys said:

    EUR/USD Parity? its at 105.5 today...

    $1.05 seems like a tough floor to break.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    Great Moggster detailed question from p.96!!
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    Paging Scrapheap, Southam, and Max

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/801438477745324032
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146
    rcs1000 said:

    Given Parliament is able call a vote of No Confidence and bring down the ministers appointed by the President, this would severely diminish MLP's powers, were she to get elected.

    Which is perhaps a reason why her chances of being elected may be greater than assumed. The people know they are not electing a dictator.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,978
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    Just popping in. My 45day guarantee from Travelex expires on Monday and I need a steer on GBP/USD. Will GBP rise or fall over the next six weeks? I know there's an upcoming Fed rate rise.

    It will probably rise or fall. But it might stay the same.
    Thank you times x, where "x" is a multiplier appropriate to the utility of the advice
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Tim Farron has all the physical charm of a lamprey.....

    http://tinyurl.com/hplj45x

    Farron has zero charisma. His suits are also unbelievably shit. I think he goes out of his way to dress in the blandest suits he can find.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    edited November 2016
    MaxPB said:

    taffys said:

    EUR/USD Parity? its at 105.5 today...

    $1.05 seems like a tough floor to break.
    On GBP-EUR, I'm projecting a €130k sale right now at good margin, and about half of it should be in this year.

    So if we can hold sterling weakness a touch longer I'd be grateful.
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    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Consensus here, chancellor/OBR being overly cautious or front loading as much bad news as possible.

    Truth be told, the future is so uncertain that the bands need to be really wide.

    War in the Middle East, oil to $100, they're far too optimistic.
    US sucks in massive quantities of imports on the back of stimulus spending, tax cuts, they're too pessimistic.
    US smacks tariffs on Mexican and Chinese goods, big budget and current account deficits lead to substantially weaker dollar, too optimistic.
    etc. etc. etc.

    We can come out Brexit much stronger. We can come out much weaker. So much is unknown.
    Yes, a sub-10% chance of any recession in the next three years - which is effectively what the OBR is saying - seems pretty optimistic.
    Their published figures don't price a recession in, which is why they don't add up. It feels like the debt figures are dependent on a recession but the GDP figures don't show one.
    I suppose budgeting for a recession but not forecasting it is a reasonable policy as you don't know when it will come (but it will eventually). There's a danger of a self fulfilling policy if you forecast one you make it happen.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Leicester through as top with one game to spare. Good to have someone safeguarding the English PL coefficient.

    Spurs have Thursday night football to look forward to again.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,792
    CD13 said:

    Mr P,

    "OBR estimate that Brexit - as opposed to other changes & policy decisions - adds a cumulative £68bn to borrowing."

    What touching faith you have in financial forecasts. I have a friend who'd like to interest you in a sure-fire investment. Guaranteed to make you a fortune. Please send all you bank details.

    Seriously, could you acquaint me with a Government forecast in the Autumn statement or Budget that hasn't been amended within months, not years?

    Yep. Government optimistically forecasts a deficit of X and it turns out to be X PLUS Y. How often is that forecast unduly PESSIMISTIC and it turns out to be X MINUS Y?
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    Bargain. Remoaners wouldn't spend a fiver to save their own granny:

    https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/801432800448614400
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205

    Leicester through as top with one game to spare. Good to have someone safeguarding the English PL coefficient.

    Spurs have Thursday night football to look forward to again.
    Whilst it's not a done deal, the coefficient issue will cease to be an issue (for us, anyway) if the new qualification system is ratified.
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    Leicester through as top with one game to spare. Good to have someone safeguarding the English PL coefficient.

    Spurs have Thursday night football to look forward to again.
    Who knows if you manage to win the Cup you could have Championship and Championship League football next season.
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    That's actually a tribute to George Osborne's stewardship of the economy, and plus we actually haven't Brexited
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068
    Although if you look at size of GDP measured in constant currency, then we're worst :-(
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,792

    Bargain. Remoaners wouldn't spend a fiver to save their own granny:

    https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/801432800448614400

    So we are half way to the deceitful Remain figure of £4300 per household and we haven't even left yet!
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,978

    Bargain. Remoaners wouldn't spend a fiver to save their own granny:

    https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/801432800448614400

    If you are confident that £1000 per person to leave the EU is a bargain, you can always put it on the side of a bus and drive it around the country
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,625
    FF43 said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr P,

    "OBR estimate that Brexit - as opposed to other changes & policy decisions - adds a cumulative £68bn to borrowing."

    What touching faith you have in financial forecasts. I have a friend who'd like to interest you in a sure-fire investment. Guaranteed to make you a fortune. Please send all you bank details.

    Seriously, could you acquaint me with a Government forecast in the Autumn statement or Budget that hasn't been amended within months, not years?

    Yep. Government optimistically forecasts a deficit of X and it turns out to be X PLUS Y. How often is that forecast unduly PESSIMISTIC and it turns out to be X MINUS Y?
    Yes, it's an exercise in "the government are awesome" for the run up to 2020. That 90% debt figure is, IMO, going to feature especially if, as I suspect, net debt reaches about 75% by the end of 2019. Due to the government's policies and a good Brexit deal we've managed to avert disaster, vote for us.
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    FF43 said:

    Bargain. Remoaners wouldn't spend a fiver to save their own granny:

    https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/801432800448614400

    So we are half way to the deceitful Remain figure of £4300 per household and we haven't even left yet!

    There are four adults in my household currently.

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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068
    Mostly that tells me not to pay any attention to forecasts*.

    * With the exception of my GBP/USD call.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    Brexit-proof jobs miracle.

    Lets save that one for later.
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    FF43 said:

    Bargain. Remoaners wouldn't spend a fiver to save their own granny:

    https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/801432800448614400

    So we are half way to the deceitful Remain figure of £4300 per household and we haven't even left yet!

    There are four adults in my household currently.

    George Osborne was right will be the political narrative for the next twenty years.
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    Brexit Britain is a disaster story:

    That's actually a tribute to George Osborne's stewardship of the economy, and plus we actually haven't Brexited
    What part of "immediate and profound shock" don't you understand?

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/799191249295208448
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146

    That's actually a tribute to George Osborne's stewardship of the economy, and plus we actually haven't Brexited

    Shh... Don't tell anyone. The secret to walking back on Brexit is to pretend it's already been a huge success and now we're getting on with everything else.
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    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Sounds like much ado about nothing.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068
    MaxPB said:

    FF43 said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr P,

    "OBR estimate that Brexit - as opposed to other changes & policy decisions - adds a cumulative £68bn to borrowing."

    What touching faith you have in financial forecasts. I have a friend who'd like to interest you in a sure-fire investment. Guaranteed to make you a fortune. Please send all you bank details.

    Seriously, could you acquaint me with a Government forecast in the Autumn statement or Budget that hasn't been amended within months, not years?

    Yep. Government optimistically forecasts a deficit of X and it turns out to be X PLUS Y. How often is that forecast unduly PESSIMISTIC and it turns out to be X MINUS Y?
    Yes, it's an exercise in "the government are awesome" for the run up to 2020. That 90% debt figure is, IMO, going to feature especially if, as I suspect, net debt reaches about 75% by the end of 2019. Due to the government's policies and a good Brexit deal we've managed to avert disaster, vote for us.
    75% is a bit optimstic for three years away.

    We're at (what) 88% now. If we assume an average deficit of 2% of GDP, then we get to add 6% to 94%. But then we have to divide by 1.045 three times to simulate 4.5% nominal GDP growth. So, 82% at end of 2019.
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    rcs1000 said:
    Meh. Sterling was far worse than this against the euro in 2008-2009. It goes up, it goes down. And it's doing precisely what it should do as a macroeconomic shock-absorber. We all knew there'd be a hit from the vote.

    As a price for independence and freedom, it's a small price to pay.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,645
    edited November 2016
    viewcode said:

    Bargain. Remoaners wouldn't spend a fiver to save their own granny:

    https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/801432800448614400

    If you are confident that £1000 per person to leave the EU is a bargain, you can always put it on the side of a bus and drive it around the country
    Let me give you a clue: I don't give a f*ck about the bus.

    It's hilarious how Remainers keep trying to troll Leavers with this, as if each and every one actually gives a shit.
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    But.. but.. We haven't actually Brexited yet!

    https://twitter.com/biggixer/status/798830694277332992
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    Brexit Britain is a disaster story:

    That's actually a tribute to George Osborne's stewardship of the economy, and plus we actually haven't Brexited
    What part of "immediate and profound shock" don't you understand?

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/799191249295208448
    Have we actually left the EU let alone triggered Article 50?
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    rcs1000 said:

    Mostly that tells me not to pay any attention to forecasts*.

    * With the exception of my GBP/USD call.
    Or your Hillary Clinton call ;-)
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    What part of "immediate and profound shock" don't you understand?

    Based on "immediate" triggering of Article 50, which you may have noticed hasn't happened yet.

    And which part of £60bn is not profound or shocking?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,584
    edited November 2016

    But.. but.. We haven't actually Brexited yet!

    https://twitter.com/biggixer/status/798830694277332992

    Let me give you a clue: I don't give a f*ck about this.

    It's hilarious how Leavers keep trying to troll Remainers with this, as if each and every one actually gives a shit.

    But I'm astonished a Thatcherite doesn't find a near £60 billion increase in the deficit neither profound or shocking.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146

    Brexit Britain is a disaster story:

    That's actually a tribute to George Osborne's stewardship of the economy, and plus we actually haven't Brexited
    What part of "immediate and profound shock" don't you understand?
    What part of "the Article 50 process to start straight away" don't you understand?

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited November 2016

    Brexit Britain is a disaster story:

    That's actually a tribute to George Osborne's stewardship of the economy, and plus we actually haven't Brexited
    What part of "immediate and profound shock" don't you understand?

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/799191249295208448
    Have we actually left the EU let alone triggered Article 50?
    It was assumed that serial liar David Cameron who misled the house was telling the truth.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    This Labour lass on Daily Politics is pitiful. Sub sixth form.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    As a price for independence and freedom, it's a small price to pay.

    Letting Donald Trump pick our ambassador...

    Take Back Control!
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,625
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    FF43 said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr P,

    "OBR estimate that Brexit - as opposed to other changes & policy decisions - adds a cumulative £68bn to borrowing."

    What touching faith you have in financial forecasts. I have a friend who'd like to interest you in a sure-fire investment. Guaranteed to make you a fortune. Please send all you bank details.

    Seriously, could you acquaint me with a Government forecast in the Autumn statement or Budget that hasn't been amended within months, not years?

    Yep. Government optimistically forecasts a deficit of X and it turns out to be X PLUS Y. How often is that forecast unduly PESSIMISTIC and it turns out to be X MINUS Y?
    Yes, it's an exercise in "the government are awesome" for the run up to 2020. That 90% debt figure is, IMO, going to feature especially if, as I suspect, net debt reaches about 75% by the end of 2019. Due to the government's policies and a good Brexit deal we've managed to avert disaster, vote for us.
    75% is a bit optimstic for three years away.

    We're at (what) 88% now. If we assume an average deficit of 2% of GDP, then we get to add 6% to 94%. But then we have to divide by 1.045 three times to simulate 4.5% nominal GDP growth. So, 82% at end of 2019.
    84% currently, so about 78-79%.
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    Pulpstar said:

    Brexit-proof jobs miracle.

    Lets save that one for later.

    Please do. Google, Facebook and IBM have all announced jobs and investment *despite* the vote.

    And you were a Brexiter right up until 10 days before the vote.

    I remember.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    Bargain. Remoaners wouldn't spend a fiver to save their own granny:

    https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/801432800448614400

    I thought irt was meant to be £4300 ?
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    Scott_P said:

    As a price for independence and freedom, it's a small price to pay.

    Letting Donald Trump pick our ambassador...

    Take Back Control!
    That's pathetic, even for you.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,978

    rcs1000 said:
    Meh. Sterling was far worse than this against the euro in 2008-2009. It goes up, it goes down. And it's doing precisely what it should do as a macroeconomic shock-absorber. We all knew there'd be a hit from the vote.

    As a price for independence and freedom, it's a small price to pay.
    You can put that on the bus too.

    "BREXIT. IT WILL COST YOU A GRAND EACH. BUT IT'S ONLY MONEY, YEAH?"
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    Brexit Britain is a disaster story:

    That's actually a tribute to George Osborne's stewardship of the economy, and plus we actually haven't Brexited
    What part of "immediate and profound shock" don't you understand?
    What part of "the Article 50 process to start straight away" don't you understand?

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf
    It is forecast to happen by March 2016. The OBR knows this.

    And... it has no virtually effect on the growth figures through to 2021.
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    But.. but.. We haven't actually Brexited yet!

    https://twitter.com/biggixer/status/798830694277332992

    Let me give you a clue: I don't give a f*ck about the bus.

    It's hilarious how Leavers keep trying to troll Remainers with this, as if each and every one actually gives a shit.

    But I'm astonished a Thatcherite doesn't find a near £60 billion increase in the deficit neither profound or shocking.
    I knew there'd be a temporary one-off hit to the public finances from leaving.

    We all did.
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    Mr. Code, isn't it a forecast of debt?

    Also, leaving the EU (if we do) alters our long term position. If, over a century, the situation is better than remaining then taking a short term hit for long term advantage makes perfect sense. A man saving for his first house deposit will not have as many nights out as a man frittering his cash away. But in 30 years' time, only one of them will have a house.
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    Scott_P said:


    What part of "immediate and profound shock" don't you understand?

    Based on "immediate" triggering of Article 50, which you may have noticed hasn't happened yet.

    And which part of £60bn is not profound or shocking?
    For you, it's the fact it's not even higher so you have to make hay with that.

    The triple-lock, NHS ringfence, international aid are all far bigger liabilities in the long-term. Interesting, all of which Hammond said he'd review by the end of the parliament.

    And rightly so.
This discussion has been closed.