Had to laugh at Trump's tweet on the whole hamilton saga. 'The theatre should always be a safe....' Looks like it's not just sections of the left who want a 'safe space' away from opinions they don't like.
Not sure why you are laughing. If a politician cannot go to the theatre either with or without his wife without being harangued or booed by the cast or the audience why would anybody of any ability want to be a politician?
I am in two minds about this. I like common courtesy and outside of protest or argument or fibbing in a campaign (coughcoughGovecoughcough) there's no real need to be rude, and Pence has the same rights as anybody else to peaceably go about his business unmolested - he hasn't broken the law.
But the statement "If a politician cannot go to the theatre...without being harangued or booed...why would anybody of any ability want to be a politician?" is somewhat uninformed. Politicians have been booed by theatre audiences for centuries. It comes with the territory.
It was a question not a statement. If we want to treat politicians like crap, we'll get crap politicians.
Apparently the euro has had it's worst run in years and is expected to reach parity with the dollar next week. Commentators are expecting it to continue it's decline into the year end as the US is expected to increase their interest rates. Is this a real threat for Europe as some are saying or do they have anything they can do to mitigate the fall
Had to laugh at Trump's tweet on the whole hamilton saga. 'The theatre should always be a safe....' Looks like it's not just sections of the left who want a 'safe space' away from opinions they don't like.
I'd be more than a little peeved if, having managed to get the impossible tickets for the hottest Broadway show in town, the performance was punctuated by the cast turning disparagingly on a VIP in the audience.
That isn't the performance I'd paid to watch, it's not a comedy club.
It happened at the curtain call after the performance.
Safe space safe spaaaaaaaaaaaaace.
The report I saw was that references were made and booing from the audience was evident for most of the performance, before at the end the cast took it upon themselves to publically criticise their guest. That's really not how to treat people enjoying an evening at the theatre.
Whatever happened to good manners and basic decency? Certain 'liberal' types seem to think that these are things that also belong in the past.
Had to laugh at Trump's tweet on the whole hamilton saga. 'The theatre should always be a safe....' Looks like it's not just sections of the left who want a 'safe space' away from opinions they don't like.
I'd be more than a little peeved if, having managed to get the impossible tickets for the hottest Broadway show in town, the performance was punctuated by the cast turning disparagingly on a VIP in the audience.
That isn't the performance I'd paid to watch, it's not a comedy club.
It happened at the curtain call after the performance.
Safe space safe spaaaaaaaaaaaaace.
The report I saw was that references were made and booing from the audience was evident for most of the performance, before at the end the cast took it upon themselves to publically criticise their guest. That's really not how to treat people enjoying an evening at the theatre.
Whatever happened to good manners and basic decency? Certain 'liberal' types seem to think that these are things that also belong in the past.
Delicate flower.
Perhaps someone should have grabbed Pence's pussy instead. Is that more the preferred etiquette these days?
The preferred etiquette in a theater (sic) is for everyone to sit in silence, perhaps with the occasional clap of the hands where appropriate during the performance. Why should it be in any way acceptable to ruin everyone's (expensive!) evening by disturbing the peace?
Had to laugh at Trump's tweet on the whole hamilton saga. 'The theatre should always be a safe....' Looks like it's not just sections of the left who want a 'safe space' away from opinions they don't like.
Not sure why you are laughing. If a politician cannot go to the theatre either with or without his wife without being harangued or booed by the cast or the audience why would anybody of any ability want to be a politician?
I am in two minds about this. I like common courtesy and outside of protest or argument or fibbing in a campaign (coughcoughGovecoughcough) there's no real need to be rude, and Pence has the same rights as anybody else to peaceably go about his business unmolested - he hasn't broken the law.
But the statement "If a politician cannot go to the theatre...without being harangued or booed...why would anybody of any ability want to be a politician?" is somewhat uninformed. Politicians have been booed by theatre audiences for centuries. It comes with the territory.
It was a question not a statement. If we want to treat politicians like crap, we'll get crap politicians.
Thinks.
But we do get crap politicians. We have done for centuries.
Have any of the people on here who are wringing their hands and weeping bitter tears about the violation of Pence's safe space actually listened to the speech?
Could they point out what passages were actually offensive in it?
Apparently the euro has had it's worst run in years and is expected to reach parity with the dollar next week. Commentators are expecting it to continue it's decline into the year end as the US is expected to increase their interest rates. Is this a real threat for Europe as some are saying or do they have anything they can do to mitigate the fall
Just a point, if the falling euro is good for the EU why do so many remainers say the falling pound is bad for the UK
Your first point ("...Is this a real threat for Europe...") assumed that a falling euro was bad for the EU
Your second point ("...if the falling euro is good for the EU...") assumed that a falling euro was good for the EU
The Big G is known for his inconsistency.
The truth is that leavers are so petrified of Brexit turning bad that, rather than just wait and see, they have to try and spin every tiny piece of news and always endeavour to get their rebuttal in first.
Had to laugh at Trump's tweet on the whole hamilton saga. 'The theatre should always be a safe....' Looks like it's not just sections of the left who want a 'safe space' away from opinions they don't like.
I'd be more than a little peeved if, having managed to get the impossible tickets for the hottest Broadway show in town, the performance was punctuated by the cast turning disparagingly on a VIP in the audience.
That isn't the performance I'd paid to watch, it's not a comedy club.
It happened at the curtain call after the performance.
Safe space safe spaaaaaaaaaaaaace.
The report I saw was that references were made and booing from the audience was evident for most of the performance, before at the end the cast took it upon themselves to publically criticise their guest. That's really not how to treat people enjoying an evening at the theatre.
Whatever happened to good manners and basic decency? Certain 'liberal' types seem to think that these are things that also belong in the past.
Delicate flower.
Perhaps someone should have grabbed Pence's pussy instead. Is that more the preferred etiquette these days?
The preferred etiquette in a theater (sic) is for everyone to sit in silence, perhaps with the occasional clap of the hands where appropriate during the performance. Why should it be in any way acceptable to ruin everyone's (expensive!) evening by disturbing the peace?
Give over. What do you think this is, the Royal Command Performance circa 1959?
I seriously doubt it ruined anyone's evening. Indeed, it probably made most people's.
Pence turned up the epicentre of liberal America. A hip hopping musical theatre in New York. And he got a gracious special request when the performance closed.
If you can't handle that, get thee to your safe space.
Whatever happened to good manners and basic decency? Certain 'liberal' types seem to think that these are things that also belong in the past.
As indeed do certain 'conservative' types, and many others of all political stripes. The older I get, the more I value it and the more I realise it is so easily discarded by those in power.
Had to laugh at Trump's tweet on the whole hamilton saga. 'The theatre should always be a safe....' Looks like it's not just sections of the left who want a 'safe space' away from opinions they don't like.
I'd be more than a little peeved if, having managed to get the impossible tickets for the hottest Broadway show in town, the performance was punctuated by the cast turning disparagingly on a VIP in the audience.
That isn't the performance I'd paid to watch, it's not a comedy club.
It happened at the curtain call after the performance.
Safe space safe spaaaaaaaaaaaaace.
The report I saw was that references were made and booing from the audience was evident for most of the performance, before at the end the cast took it upon themselves to publically criticise their guest. That's really not how to treat people enjoying an evening at the theatre.
Whatever happened to good manners and basic decency? Certain 'liberal' types seem to think that these are things that also belong in the past.
Delicate flower.
Perhaps someone should have grabbed Pence's pussy instead. Is that more the preferred etiquette these days?
The preferred etiquette in a theater (sic) is for everyone to sit in silence, perhaps with the occasional clap of the hands where appropriate during the performance. Why should it be in any way acceptable to ruin everyone's (expensive!) evening by disturbing the peace?
It's the rustling of sweet and crisp packets that gets to me. At least the Lincolns did not have to endure that.
Have any of the people on here who are wringing their hands and weeping bitter tears about the violation of Pence's safe space actually listened to the speech?
Could they point out what passages were actually offensive in it?
Perhaps the homophobe Pence learnt something positive about diversity in America.
Which no one serious does in a serious negotiation.
But you're proposing exactly that.
This is tedious.
We agree extending the deadline is bad.
You think revocation is extension, therefore not allowed
I think revocation resets, not extends the deadline, so could be allowed.
Until the ECJ opines, neither of us will know who is right, although we could have a wager. I have a theoretical £10 of someone else's money to play with.
And as for the "size of your negotiations", I have negotiated exactly the same number of Article 50 invocations as you, so are you done willy waving?
Your inability to read and comprehend never ceases to amaze me. Each time I get into a discussion with you I intend never to do it again.
1. No, I'm not proposing "exactly that" [presumably "playing sillyy buggers"]. I'm proposing a tool to extend the deadline.
2. Yes this is tedious
3. Extending the deadline would be good for the UK, and bad for the EU.
4. Revocation is not extension. Revocation and resubmission starts a new 2 year period. Where we disagree is that I believe - based on 20 years experience of negotiations - is that people would not start negotiations from scratch. Consequently, the EU would not give away a significant advantage by allowing this loophole. Hence they did not intend an Article 50 revocation to be possible.
5. I have been in the room for a lot of serious negotiations. I'm not "willy waving". I'm just saying that I have some experience of how people behave in negotiations. I suspect you are spouting shit.
Had to laugh at Trump's tweet on the whole hamilton saga. 'The theatre should always be a safe....' Looks like it's not just sections of the left who want a 'safe space' away from opinions they don't like.
I'd be more than a little peeved if, having managed to get the impossible tickets for the hottest Broadway show in town, the performance was punctuated by the cast turning disparagingly on a VIP in the audience.
That isn't the performance I'd paid to watch, it's not a comedy club.
It happened at the curtain call after the performance.
Safe space safe spaaaaaaaaaaaaace.
The report I saw was that references were made and booing from the audience was evident for most of the performance, before at the end the cast took it upon themselves to publically criticise their guest. That's really not how to treat people enjoying an evening at the theatre.
Whatever happened to good manners and basic decency? Certain 'liberal' types seem to think that these are things that also belong in the past.
Delicate flower.
Perhaps someone should have grabbed Pence's pussy instead. Is that more the preferred etiquette these days?
The preferred etiquette in a theater (sic) is for everyone to sit in silence, perhaps with the occasional clap of the hands where appropriate during the performance. Why should it be in any way acceptable to ruin everyone's (expensive!) evening by disturbing the peace?
Give over. What do you think this is, the Royal Command Performance circa 1959?
I seriously doubt it ruined anyone's evening. Indeed, it probably made most people's.
Pence turned up the epicentre of liberal America. A hip hopping musical theatre in New York. And he got a gracious special request when the performance closed.
If you can't handle that, get thee to your safe space.
Presumably he was doing his own Hague-at-the-Notting-Hill-Carnival thing.
Turkey’s governing party has sparked an outcry after putting forward a bill that would pardon up to 3,000 child rapists if the perpetrator married his victim.
Have any of the people on here who are wringing their hands and weeping bitter tears about the violation of Pence's safe space actually listened to the speech?
Could they point out what passages were actually offensive in it?
Perhaps the homophobe Pence learnt something positive about diversity in America.
Had to laugh at Trump's tweet on the whole hamilton saga. 'The theatre should always be a safe....' Looks like it's not just sections of the left who want a 'safe space' away from opinions they don't like.
I'd be more than a little peeved if, having managed to get the impossible tickets for the hottest Broadway show in town, the performance was punctuated by the cast turning disparagingly on a VIP in the audience.
That isn't the performance I'd paid to watch, it's not a comedy club.
It happened at the curtain call after the performance.
Safe space safe spaaaaaaaaaaaaace.
The report I saw was that references were made and booing from the audience was evident for most of the performance, before at the end the cast took it upon themselves to publically criticise their guest. That's really not how to treat people enjoying an evening at the theatre.
Whatever happened to good manners and basic decency? Certain 'liberal' types seem to think that these are things that also belong in the past.
Delicate flower.
Perhaps someone should have grabbed Pence's pussy instead. Is that more the preferred etiquette these days?
The preferred etiquette in a theater (sic) is for everyone to sit in silence, perhaps with the occasional clap of the hands where appropriate during the performance. Why should it be in any way acceptable to ruin everyone's (expensive!) evening by disturbing the peace?
Give over. What do you think this is, the Royal Command Performance circa 1959?
I seriously doubt it ruined anyone's evening. Indeed, it probably made most people's.
Pence turned up the epicentre of liberal America. A hip hopping musical theatre in New York. And he got a gracious special request when the performance closed.
If you can't handle that, get thee to your safe space.
Jeez, this is nothing to to with safe spaces or restricting freedom of speech in public debates.
It's about respecting the several hundred other people in the theater who have each paid upwards of a hundred dollars to watch the show. Basic manners and human decency, which appear to be disappearing rapidly in modern society.
There are 2 parts, the first of which has been obscured in this "fascinating debate"
1. Your primary argument is that revocation allows extension, that would be unfair, therefore no revocation. The Article makes no mention of revocation or otherwise, it will be interpreted by the ECJ (if they are asked to opine) and whether it is "fair"or not is irrelevant. What matters is, is it legal? It is foolhardy to predict legal judgements on your perceived version of what might be fair. Ask the Attorney General about the High Court case for an example...
2. Even if you are right, that "serious and skilled negotiators" would not reset the clock, this is the EU we are talking about.
Your arguments do not convince me Article 50 is not revocable. If the ECJ ever opine we will know.
Apparently the euro has had it's worst run in years and is expected to reach parity with the dollar next week. Commentators are expecting it to continue it's decline into the year end as the US is expected to increase their interest rates. Is this a real threat for Europe as some are saying or do they have anything they can do to mitigate the fall
Just a point, if the falling euro is good for the EU why do so many remainers say the falling pound is bad for the UK
Your first point ("...Is this a real threat for Europe...") assumed that a falling euro was bad for the EU
Your second point ("...if the falling euro is good for the EU...") assumed that a falling euro was good for the EU
The Big G is known for his inconsistency.
Absolute rubbish - the only thing I have done is to move from a eurosceptic remainer to a committed leaver accepting the democratic will of the people. And yes I do want to get on with it as I consider the delaying of A50 will cause more uncertainty and harm the economy.
As far as the destination is concerned I hope that TM will be able to retain some form of access to the single market but at the same time agree a work permit process where anyone from anywhere can come to the UK to work provided they speak english and have a job and they should be welcomed here.
Furthermore no benefits should be payable for upto 5 years and if the person coming to our Country loses their job they will be required to return home.
And I believe everyone working in the UK at the time of leaving should be permitted to stay and be offered residency after 5 years
It's about respecting the several hundred other people in the theater who have each paid upwards of a hundred dollars to watch the show. Basic manners and human decency, which appear to be disappearing rapidly in modern society.
Agreed. But if Donald Trump weren't so infantile, he could have kept quiet.
There are 2 parts, the first of which has been obscured in this "fascinating debate"
1. Your primary argument is that revocation allows extension, that would be unfair, therefore no revocation. The Article makes no mention of revocation or otherwise, it will be interpreted by the ECJ (if they are asked to opine) and whether it is "fair"or not is irrelevant. What matters is, is it legal? It is foolhardy to predict legal judgements on your perceived version of what might be fair. Ask the Attorney General about the High Court case for an example...
2. Even if you are right, that "serious and skilled negotiators" would not reset the clock, this is the EU we are talking about.
Your arguments do not convince me Article 50 is not revocable. If the ECJ ever opine we will know.
That is not my primary argument. My argument is nothing to do with "fairness" it is to do with intent. The EU's intention is to create an advantage for themselves in negotiations. Revocation/resubmission would undermine this.
Apparently the euro has had it's worst run in years and is expected to reach parity with the dollar next week. Commentators are expecting it to continue it's decline into the year end as the US is expected to increase their interest rates. Is this a real threat for Europe as some are saying or do they have anything they can do to mitigate the fall
Just a point, if the falling euro is good for the EU why do so many remainers say the falling pound is bad for the UK
Your first point ("...Is this a real threat for Europe...") assumed that a falling euro was bad for the EU
Your second point ("...if the falling euro is good for the EU...") assumed that a falling euro was good for the EU
The Big G is known for his inconsistency.
Absolute rubbish - the only thing I have done is to move from a eurosceptic remainer to a committed leaver accepting the democratic will of the people. And yes I do want to get on with it as I consider the delaying of A50 will cause more uncertainty and harm the economy.
As far as the destination is concerned I hope that TM will be able to retain some form of access to the single market but at the same time agree a work permit process where anyone from anywhere can come to the UK to work provided they speak english and have a job and they should be welcomed here.
Furthermore no benefits should be payable for upto 5 years and if the person coming to our Country loses their job they will be required to return home.
And I believe everyone working in the UK at the time of leaving should be permitted to stay and be offered residency after 5 years
There's not a lot to disagree with there. (I'd probably allow 90 days grace to find another job, particularly for higher rate taxpayers.)
Edit to add: and there are a few specialist jobs, like Premier League footballer, where one might want to be flexible on the English skills question...
Edit to add: and there are a few specialist jobs, like Premier League footballer, where one might want to be flexible on the English skills question...
The English skills test should just be contextualised for them: i.e. turn it into a long ball tactics test.
Had to laugh at Trump's tweet on the whole hamilton saga. 'The theatre should always be a safe....' Looks like it's not just sections of the left who want a 'safe space' away from opinions they don't like.
Apparently the euro has had it's worst run in years and is expected to reach parity with the dollar next week. Commentators are expecting it to continue it's decline into the year end as the US is expected to increase their interest rates. Is this a real threat for Europe as some are saying or do they have anything they can do to mitigate the fall
Just a point, if the falling euro is good for the EU why do so many remainers say the falling pound is bad for the UK
Your first point ("...Is this a real threat for Europe...") assumed that a falling euro was bad for the EU
Your second point ("...if the falling euro is good for the EU...") assumed that a falling euro was good for the EU
The Big G is known for his inconsistency.
Absolute rubbish - the only thing I have done is to move from a eurosceptic remainer to a committed leaver accepting the democratic will of the people. And yes I do want to get on with it as I consider the delaying of A50 will cause more uncertainty and harm the economy.
As far as the destination is concerned I hope that TM will be able to retain some form of access to the single market but at the same time agree a work permit process where anyone from anywhere can come to the UK to work provided they speak english and have a job and they should be welcomed here.
Furthermore no benefits should be payable for upto 5 years and if the person coming to our Country loses their job they will be required to return home.
And I believe everyone working in the UK at the time of leaving should be permitted to stay and be offered residency after 5 years
There's not a lot to disagree with there. (I'd probably allow 90 days grace to find another job, particularly for higher rate taxpayers.)
Edit to add: and there are a few specialist jobs, like Premier League footballer, where one might want to be flexible on the English skills question...
Agree with the 90 days and like your football comment
Had to laugh at Trump's tweet on the whole hamilton saga. 'The theatre should always be a safe....' Looks like it's not just sections of the left who want a 'safe space' away from opinions they don't like.
In the Spring of 2019, Californians will go to the polls in a historic vote to decide by referendum if California should exit the Union, a #Calexit vote.
Had to laugh at Trump's tweet on the whole hamilton saga. 'The theatre should always be a safe....' Looks like it's not just sections of the left who want a 'safe space' away from opinions they don't like.
I'd be more than a little peeved if, having managed to get the impossible tickets for the hottest Broadway show in town, the performance was punctuated by the cast turning disparagingly on a VIP in the audience.
That isn't the performance I'd paid to watch, it's not a comedy club.
It happened at the curtain call after the performance.
Safe space safe spaaaaaaaaaaaaace.
The report I saw was that references were made and booing from the audience was evident for most of the performance, before at the end the cast took it upon themselves to publically criticise their guest. That's really not how to treat people enjoying an evening at the theatre.
Whatever happened to good manners and basic decency? Certain 'liberal' types seem to think that these are things that also belong in the past.
Delicate flower.
Perhaps someone should have grabbed Pence's pussy instead. Is that more the preferred etiquette these days?
The preferred etiquette in a theater (sic) is for everyone to sit in silence, perhaps with the occasional clap of the hands where appropriate during the performance. Why should it be in any way acceptable to ruin everyone's (expensive!) evening by disturbing the peace?
Give over. What do you think this is, the Royal Command Performance circa 1959?
I seriously doubt it ruined anyone's evening. Indeed, it probably made most people's.
Pence turned up the epicentre of liberal America. A hip hopping musical theatre in New York. And he got a gracious special request when the performance closed.
If you can't handle that, get thee to your safe space.
Jeez, this is nothing to to with safe spaces or restricting freedom of speech in public debates.
It's about respecting the several hundred other people in the theater who have each paid upwards of a hundred dollars to watch the show. Basic manners and human decency, which appear to be disappearing rapidly in modern society.
I imagine the same people who think it is acceptable to behave boorishly in a theatre are also the same sort of people who think it is fine to pester celebrities for autographs and photos when they are out for a meal with their families.
In the Spring of 2019, Californians will go to the polls in a historic vote to decide by referendum if California should exit the Union, a #Calexit vote.
That would do wonders for the Republicans in the electoral college in 2020!
Edit: That's if the Californians can count the damn ballots in time for the 2020 elections! Grr...
I am guessing Germany in particular is coming to the conclusion that neither the US or Britain is reliable from their point of view. The US because interests are diverging particularly on Russia, which is a threat to Europe even if the US may not perceive it as a threat to themselves.
How did you reach the conclusion that Russia is a threat to Europe? Is Germany a threat to Switzerland? Is France a threat to Spain? Is the US a threat to Canada?
What really scares me is how western figures have talked about building some kind of defence line along the eastern borders of the Baltic states. Usually this is mentioned without any reference to Kaliningrad.
A very important point. Being a murderous despot t isn't sufficient to be a threat to the west, although Putin certainly is murderous despot. Carpet bombing your own city as Putin did to Grozny is remarkable. We got on perfectly fine with Saddam Hussein until he stupidly invaded Kuwait. But there are diplomatic norms of behaviour that even murderous despots like Putin are expected to adhere to. These include not invading neighbouring countries because you think it's time to liven up your domestic politics, particularly when these countries border your own.. That's where the threat is. Ukraine is extremely worrying. An EU or NATO member would cross the line.
At the risk of boring you with a recitation of fact, it was NATO (for which read America) that brought down Yanukovich (the democratically elected President of Ukraine), using the protests following the declining of the EU association agreement as a trigger. In doing so, they effectively removed from Russia a vitally strategic seaport and would have drastically upset the balance of power on Russia's borders. Depending on where you stand, that's either a brilliant master-stroke, or a dangerous escalation, but it happened, and it was the first move.
Russia's response was essentially to do the same thing - use a large discontented populous and through it's own covert and overt support, get back the influence it lost. Again you can approve or disapprove depending on where you stand, but it seems odd to wag the finger at Russian black ops destabilising the region when that's exactly what the US did to create the situation in the first place. You destabilise, foment, terrorise; I aid brave revolutionaries and freedom fighters.
Was that lifted from 'Russia Today'?
Was this pulled out of the same orifice as most of your posts?
This last week has seen toblerone and maltesers reduce their size but maintain the price due to the currency devaluation.
This has to be a win - win. Keeps inflation in check and reduces the other inflation, obesity.
Positives for Brexit
Less chocolate for the same money? I don't recall the Brexit nutjobs ever telling us this would happen?
Isn't less chocolate for the same money what every shrinking chocolate bar has been giving us for the last 40 years? Next up, Brexit responsible for bunions, rain, stepping in dogshit, and junk mail.
CNN seems to have stopped updating except for California and doesn't have the latest numbers in many cases.
It might be worth noting that Betfair is using CNN data re popular vote - so it may be important whether CNN ever does update the figures for all other states.
CNN still has Trump on 47.0% - it seems likely that should tick down to 46.9% with more California votes but even so the situation appears a bit unsatisfactory. CNN also only appears to be reporting to one decimal place.
In the Spring of 2019, Californians will go to the polls in a historic vote to decide by referendum if California should exit the Union, a #Calexit vote.
That would do wonders for the Republicans in the electoral college in 2020!
Edit: That's if the Californians can count the damn ballots in time for the 2020 elections! Grr...
It would also significantly dimininish the USA as a world power .The Presidency itself would,therefore, count for less than hitherto.
CNN seems to have stopped updating except for California and doesn't have the latest numbers in many cases.
It might be worth noting that Betfair is using CNN data re popular vote - so it may be important whether CNN ever does update the figures for all other states.
CNN still has Trump on 47.0% - it seems likely that should tick down to 46.9% with more California votes but even so the situation appears a bit unsatisfactory. CNN also only appears to be reporting to one decimal place.
I notice the fox election centre has now pulled Michigan from its called status and dropped Trump back to 290 votes.
Good Evening. The poll numbers in the thread header are limited good news. There still isn't a hint of a shift big enough to suggest Brexit won't happen. The ship remains on course. However there is no sign at all of national consensus. As a passionate europhile I honestly expected the polls to shift towards Brexit after the vote in the same way military action becomes more popular when it begins. We're as patriotic lot as Britain's with a tendency to rally to the cause even if we don't like it.
The fact that all the polling including this one shows the " Remain " core holding up is good news. Firstly it means the generational reunification project starts from a much higher base than we did post war.Secondly it's a significant check and balance on the government if they try and perdue Hard Brexit. Thirdly all those serving politicians who supported the official Leave campaign ( as distinct from Brexit per se ) need to be in political terms ' necklaced ' when the New Jerusalem doesn't arrive and the Mills are as Satanic as ever.
Brexit must mean more than just Brexit.
In a loose sense this is now one battle in a war over the 21st Century. We've lost this battle but as the polling shows it can yet be an orderly and tactical retreat.
Had to laugh at Trump's tweet on the whole hamilton saga. 'The theatre should always be a safe....' Looks like it's not just sections of the left who want a 'safe space' away from opinions they don't like.
Worse things have happened in Theatres.
I literally can't think of anything worse that has happened to an American politician in a theatre than Pence being booed.
Osborne was booed at the Paraolympics, but I think he was attending and presenting medals in an official capacity. So, I’d say that was somewhat different, and just about falls under the category of legitimate political dissent & protest.
Pence was attending the theatre as a private citizen, as I understand it.
I’d be interested in Nick Palmer’s opinion, but I think politicians do have a right to a private life in which they can expect not to be embroiled in protest.
My opinion on this would be different if Pence had been carrying out a function connected with his political office. I’d say booing & protest then was fine.
Given the earlier experience of 2004, saying 'Yanukovich' and 'democratically elected' in the same sentence is a little odd.
Yanukovich is a paid ally and stooge of Russia. You could easily prepend your post with another paragraph stating how Russia was interfering in Ukranian politics earlier on.
It's not a little odd - it's an inconvenient truth. Paid ally and Russian stooge he certainly was, but I have never seen the election that put him in power contested even by the fiercest US cheerleaders.
Given the earlier experience of 2004, saying 'Yanukovich' and 'democratically elected' in the same sentence is a little odd.
Yanukovich is a paid ally and stooge of Russia. You could easily prepend your post with another paragraph stating how Russia was interfering in Ukranian politics earlier on.
It's not a little odd - it's an inconvenient truth. Paid ally and Russian stooge he certainly was, but I have never seen the election that put him in power contested even by the fiercest US cheerleaders.
CNN seems to have stopped updating except for California and doesn't have the latest numbers in many cases.
It might be worth noting that Betfair is using CNN data re popular vote - so it may be important whether CNN ever does update the figures for all other states.
CNN still has Trump on 47.0% - it seems likely that should tick down to 46.9% with more California votes but even so the situation appears a bit unsatisfactory. CNN also only appears to be reporting to one decimal place.
I notice the fox election centre has now pulled Michigan from its called status and dropped Trump back to 290 votes.
Ooh, so after another week of counting the final votes, it's going to be close enough that they get count them all again!
What a mess, especially for those of us who are still waiting for the bookies to pay out!
CNN seems to have stopped updating except for California and doesn't have the latest numbers in many cases.
It might be worth noting that Betfair is using CNN data re popular vote - so it may be important whether CNN ever does update the figures for all other states.
CNN still has Trump on 47.0% - it seems likely that should tick down to 46.9% with more California votes but even so the situation appears a bit unsatisfactory. CNN also only appears to be reporting to one decimal place.
I notice the fox election centre has now pulled Michigan from its called status and dropped Trump back to 290 votes.
I am guessing Germany in particular is coming to the conclusion that neither the US or Britain is reliable from their point of view. The US because interests are diverging particularly on Russia, which is a threat to Europe even if the US may not perceive it as a threat to themselves.
How did you reach the conclusion that Russia is a threat to Europe? Is Germany a threat to Switzerland? Is France a threat to Spain? Is the US a threat to Canada?
What really scares me is how western figures have talked about building some kind of defence line along the eastern borders of the Baltic states. Usually this is mentioned without any reference to Kaliningrad.
A very important point. Being a murderous despot t isn't sufficient to be a threat to the west, although Putin certainly is murderous despot. Carpet bombing your own city as Putin did to Grozny is remarkable. We got on perfectly fine with Saddam Hussein until he stupidly invaded Kuwait. But there are diplomatic norms of behaviour that even murderous despots like Putin are expected to adhere to. These include not invading neighbouring countries because you think it's time to liven up your domestic politics, particularly when these countries border your own.. That's where the threat is. Ukraine is extremely worrying. An EU or NATO member would cross the line.
At the risk of boring you with a recitation of fact, it was NATO (for which read America) that brought down Yanukovich (the democratically elected President of Ukraine), using the protests following the declining of the EU association agreement as a trigger. In doing so, they effectively removed from Russia a vitally strategic seaport and would have drastically upset the balance of power on Russia's borders. Depending on where you stand, that's either a brilliant master-stroke, or a dangerous escalation, but it happened, and it was the first move.
Russia's response was essentially to do the same thing - use a large discontented populous and through it's own covert and overt support, get back the influence it lost. Again you can approve or disapprove depending on where you stand, but it seems odd to wag the finger at Russian black ops destabilising the region when that's exactly what the US did to create the situation in the first place. You destabilise, foment, terrorise; I aid brave revolutionaries and freedom fighters.
Was that lifted from 'Russia Today'?
Was this pulled out of the same orifice as most of your posts?
Reasoned argument is too much to expect, I suppose.
Osborne was booed at the Paraolympics, but I think he was attending and presenting medals in an official capacity. So, I’d say that was somewhat different, and just about falls under the category of legitimate political dissent & protest.
Pence was attending the theatre as a private citizen, as I understand it.
I’d be interested in Nick Palmer’s opinion, but I think politicians do have a right to a private life in which they can expect not to be embroiled in protest.
My opinion on this would be different if Pence had been carrying out a function connected with his political office. I’d say booing & protest then was fine.
I believe Hamilton tickets are sold out until Jan 2017, so either Pence booked tickets several months ago for a hip hop extravaganza that's 'an achievement of historical and cultural reimagining' in the heart of Sodom, or he used a bit of 'Hi, this is the VP elect's PA here, we were wondering if some tickets may be available..'
The cynic in me thinks that Trumpence won't be entirely heartbroken at the result.
CNN seems to have stopped updating except for California and doesn't have the latest numbers in many cases.
It might be worth noting that Betfair is using CNN data re popular vote - so it may be important whether CNN ever does update the figures for all other states.
CNN still has Trump on 47.0% - it seems likely that should tick down to 46.9% with more California votes but even so the situation appears a bit unsatisfactory. CNN also only appears to be reporting to one decimal place.
I don't see how betfair would be daft enough to settle on the basis of a website that first bother to update its figures. I am quite sure that Trump is well below 47% and that it will be settled on that basis. I am a bit less certain about the the turnout bet. Seems like the turnout is a bit north of 135 million. But the denominator estimate is about as accurate as a yougov opinion poll and if they were to keep the market open for a year or do the eligible voting estimate could be revised up enough to bring the turnout 58% below again. With hindsight it would have been better to offer a market based on millions of votes but then betting on these USA presidential election is quite new.
Ha ha, one straight from the Alastair Campbell playbook! #BoycottHamilton now has over 250k tweets, with the NY liberals happily joining in by asking if anyone boycotting would be so kind as to give away their tickets! (For those who don't know, it's been sold out for months, tickets are changing hands for thousands of dollars in NYC).
The article is better than its moronic title. But it feels like a report written months ago and only develop the local angle. Yes everybody in France knows Juppe is a great mayor of Bordeaux. But Ayrault was a great mayor of Nantes before becoming the amazingly bad first PM of Hollande. Juppe's national image is most shaped by two things: - his long experience as a minister (first time in 1986 all the way to 2012) PM (1995-7). This gives him credibility and gravitas. The obvious problem is that he is by far the oldest candidate and that he is the opposite of political renewal.
- his clear opposition to any deal with the far-right, as all his opponents (except maybe Poisson), and his vision of a "happy identity" view of France as communities living in harmony. He has clearly advocated some appeasement towards Muslim brotherhood-inspired organizations, as long as they advocate non-violence.
The final element is quite beyond his control: He has been chosen by the centre-left as their proxy candidate for an election they know they cannot win. The gives him support his primary opponents cannot get but makes him suspect for more right wing voters.
Ha ha, one straight from the Alastair Campbell playbook! #BoycottHamilton now has over 250k tweets, with the NY liberals happily joining in by asking if anyone boycotting would be so kind as to give away their tickets! (For those who don't know, it's been sold out for months, tickets are changing hands for thousands of dollars in NYC).
Impressive moves since Tuesday (and the amount matched on Betfair has more than doubled in 3 days. Clearly the market believes in Fillon but not yet in Juppexit.
question FPT: Do you really think Bretbart has an influence in France? I m not sure even 0.5% of the population has ever read a breitbart article. The far-right blogs are widely read but they are home grown IMHO.
This last week has seen toblerone and maltesers reduce their size but maintain the price due to the currency devaluation.
This has to be a win - win. Keeps inflation in check and reduces the other inflation, obesity.
Positives for Brexit
Less chocolate for the same money? I don't recall the Brexit nutjobs ever telling us this would happen?
Isn't less chocolate for the same money what every shrinking chocolate bar has been giving us for the last 40 years? Next up, Brexit responsible for bunions, rain, stepping in dogshit, and junk mail.
Yeah, the pound's always dropping by 20% overnight, I set my watch by it personally...
Ha ha, one straight from the Alastair Campbell playbook! #BoycottHamilton now has over 250k tweets, with the NY liberals happily joining in by asking if anyone boycotting would be so kind as to give away their tickets! (For those who don't know, it's been sold out for months, tickets are changing hands for thousands of dollars in NYC).
Why the hell didn't Cameron put a threshold of difference on the vote?
Why didn't Cameron do a lot things, Mr. Borough? Possibly because he was an arrogant tosser who believed in his own spin. A rich little boy who had always got his own way.
To be fair Cameron hasn't needed to do his own spinning for many years.
There's been no shortage of arselickers willing to do it for him.
What I suspect Cameron has had a shortage of though was people willing to tell him inconvenient truths.
Comments
But we do get crap politicians. We have done for centuries.
Could they point out what passages were actually offensive in it?
I seriously doubt it ruined anyone's evening. Indeed, it probably made most people's.
Pence turned up the epicentre of liberal America. A hip hopping musical theatre in New York. And he got a gracious special request when the performance closed.
If you can't handle that, get thee to your safe space.
1. No, I'm not proposing "exactly that" [presumably "playing sillyy buggers"]. I'm proposing a tool to extend the deadline.
2. Yes this is tedious
3. Extending the deadline would be good for the UK, and bad for the EU.
4. Revocation is not extension. Revocation and resubmission starts a new 2 year period. Where we disagree is that I believe - based on 20 years experience of negotiations - is that people would not start negotiations from scratch. Consequently, the EU would not give away a significant advantage by allowing this loophole. Hence they did not intend an Article 50 revocation to be possible.
5. I have been in the room for a lot of serious negotiations. I'm not "willy waving". I'm just saying that I have some experience of how people behave in negotiations. I suspect you are spouting shit.
Turkey’s governing party has sparked an outcry after putting forward a bill that would pardon up to 3,000 child rapists if the perpetrator married his victim.
Again, you're argument is circular.
Extending the clock is bad, so you don't think there should be a mechanism for extending the clock.
There isn't (it's a reset, not an extension), so you're argument that they wouldn't allow an extension fails, because it isn't an extension
And I see you were not done willy waving.
Even more tedious
I believe what I believe based on my professional experience.
You believe what you believe based on ?
I'm going to tell my mum
nobody's being nice to me
etc.
It's about respecting the several hundred other people in the theater who have each paid upwards of a hundred dollars to watch the show. Basic manners and human decency, which appear to be disappearing rapidly in modern society.
Juppé 3.15
Fillon 3.85
Le Pen 3.875
1. Your primary argument is that revocation allows extension, that would be unfair, therefore no revocation. The Article makes no mention of revocation or otherwise, it will be interpreted by the ECJ (if they are asked to opine) and whether it is "fair"or not is irrelevant. What matters is, is it legal? It is foolhardy to predict legal judgements on your perceived version of what might be fair. Ask the Attorney General about the High Court case for an example...
2. Even if you are right, that "serious and skilled negotiators" would not reset the clock, this is the EU we are talking about.
Your arguments do not convince me Article 50 is not revocable. If the ECJ ever opine we will know.
As far as the destination is concerned I hope that TM will be able to retain some form of access to the single market but at the same time agree a work permit process where anyone from anywhere can come to the UK to work provided they speak english and have a job and they should be welcomed here.
Furthermore no benefits should be payable for upto 5 years and if the person coming to our Country loses their job they will be required to return home.
And I believe everyone working in the UK at the time of leaving should be permitted to stay and be offered residency after 5 years
he argues his corner and is quite happy to agree to disagree
Circular once more
Edit to add: and there are a few specialist jobs, like Premier League footballer, where one might want to be flexible on the English skills question...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/570778/Supreme_Court_Printed_Case_of_the_Secretary_of_State_for_Exiting_the_European_Union.PDF
The 2019 #Calexit Independence Referendum
In the Spring of 2019, Californians will go to the polls in a historic vote to decide by referendum if California should exit the Union, a #Calexit vote.
Edit: That's if the Californians can count the damn ballots in time for the 2020 elections! Grr...
Clinton 48.0%
Trump 46.7%
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/htmlview?sle=true#gid=19
It might be worth noting that Betfair is using CNN data re popular vote - so it may be important whether CNN ever does update the figures for all other states.
CNN still has Trump on 47.0% - it seems likely that should tick down to 46.9% with more California votes but even so the situation appears a bit unsatisfactory. CNN also only appears to be reporting to one decimal place.
The fact that all the polling including this one shows the " Remain " core holding up is good news. Firstly it means the generational reunification project starts from a much higher base than we did post war.Secondly it's a significant check and balance on the government if they try and perdue Hard Brexit. Thirdly all those serving politicians who supported the official Leave campaign ( as distinct from Brexit per se ) need to be in political terms ' necklaced ' when the New Jerusalem doesn't arrive and the Mills are as Satanic as ever.
Brexit must mean more than just Brexit.
In a loose sense this is now one battle in a war over the 21st Century. We've lost this battle but as the polling shows it can yet be an orderly and tactical retreat.
(I'll get my coat.)
Pence was attending the theatre as a private citizen, as I understand it.
I’d be interested in Nick Palmer’s opinion, but I think politicians do have a right to a private life in which they can expect not to be embroiled in protest.
My opinion on this would be different if Pence had been carrying out a function connected with his political office. I’d say booing & protest then was fine.
And the other one?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/19/juppe-france-left-face-down-le-pen-formidable?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
https://twitter.com/SonnyBunch/status/800031699115606016
https://twitter.com/asabenn/status/800021782665318404
What a mess, especially for those of us who are still waiting for the bookies to pay out!
https://twitter.com/DecisionDeskHQ/status/799825553008119809
https://twitter.com/DecisionDeskHQ/status/799826191293161472
Michigan looks safe Trump.
The cynic in me thinks that Trumpence won't be entirely heartbroken at the result.
#BoycottHamilton now has over 250k tweets, with the NY liberals happily joining in by asking if anyone boycotting would be so kind as to give away their tickets!
(For those who don't know, it's been sold out for months, tickets are changing hands for thousands of dollars in NYC).
HILLARY 48%
But it feels like a report written months ago and only develop the local angle. Yes everybody in France knows Juppe is a great mayor of Bordeaux. But Ayrault was a great mayor of Nantes before becoming the amazingly bad first PM of Hollande.
Juppe's national image is most shaped by two things:
- his long experience as a minister (first time in 1986 all the way to 2012) PM (1995-7). This gives him credibility and gravitas. The obvious problem is that he is by far the oldest candidate and that he is the opposite of political renewal.
- his clear opposition to any deal with the far-right, as all his opponents (except maybe Poisson), and his vision of a "happy identity" view of France as communities living in harmony. He has clearly advocated some appeasement towards Muslim brotherhood-inspired organizations, as long as they advocate non-violence.
The final element is quite beyond his control: He has been chosen by the centre-left as their proxy candidate for an election they know they cannot win. The gives him support his primary opponents cannot get but makes him suspect for more right wing voters.
http://www.hamiltonthemusical.co.uk/
question FPT: Do you really think Bretbart has an influence in France? I m not sure even 0.5% of the population has ever read a breitbart article. The far-right blogs are widely read but they are home grown IMHO.
new thread