The ongoing Brexit debate could be killed stone dead by a competent government with a plan that went some way to address the concerns of those who voted Remain.
What we have now is a vacuum and zero confidence. What the government does say spooks the markets and picks at wounds.
They need to get a grip.
I think so too.
May dithering while the three stooges fight amongst themselves are doing us no favours at all.
May got 5 min at 1 o'clock in the morning on Thursday. Humiliation begins.
The more I think about the more this rot is caused by poor leadership. Trying to close down debate on the fictitious grounds that we will give our negotiating position away is weapons grade bullshit.
You can't give a position away when you don't have one. But if you engage the brightest minds in parliament you might just figure it out and toughen yourself up ready to negotiate abroad.
It's the bullshit that gets to me.
Lol.
There an awful lot of people in parliament who are far from bright.
Sure. But there are people like Tyrie who are as bright as they get.
My recommendation to Theresa May if she wants to limit the damage is not to plan for a Hard Brexit or hold out for a soft one, but go for a minimal Brexit.
Call Article 50, formally leave the European Union, declare we are no longer bound by EU directives, but we intend to make no other changes until we are ready to do so and at a time of our choosing. We will continue with full freedom of movement, payments as required to the EU and abide by the regulatory regime as decided by the EU. Limit negotiations to the necessary framework that would allow this to happen. More substantive negotiations can be parked to a more propitious time
She would be challenging her EU partners not to cut us loose. Will it work? Maybe yes, maybe no, but there isn't a lot of downside against the default option of Hard Brexit.
She would need to sell this idea of taking her time to get the right Brexit to sceptical Leavers in the UK as well as the rest of the EU. She doesn't appear the slightest bit minded for that kind of flexible thinking.
As I said, she seems more obsessed about immigration than any PM to come before her. This will make her popular in the short term, but it will hurt her (and the Conservative party) in the medium to long term. A moderate Labour party could absolutely clean up against May.
May is concerned about immigration because the voters are, otherwise how else did Leave win?
She was a very successful Home Secretary with regard to non-EU immigration. Not.
She was constrained by free movement of people
On non EU? how?
The law. Just different parts of the law than those relating to EU immigration.
Do you think it would have been allowed for her to stop all non-EU Catholics at the border? Or only allow women in? There are legal restrictions on just about anything anyone can do at any time. That's a curse of our daily life.
But take 3 from Clinton....and you've got a fight.
The "add 3" to Clinton was surely because these are Rasmussen polls which are widely seen as having an inbuilt GOP bias.
Rasmussen got the 2004 election, the last GOP presidential win, spot on. They were wrong in 2012 mainly because of the higher than expected minority turnout, this year minority voters are
Taking those four Rasmussen polls at face value would still give St Hillary a fairly comfortable win, wouldn't it?
Nationally Rasmussen has Trump ahead and Ohio going to Trump would be the first time it had not gone to the winning candidate since 1960 if he lost
Be that as it may, it's not going to be sufficient this time for Trump to win Ohio, if he loses Florida, North Carolina and Pennsylvania, as those .
As an earlier posted poll showed Florida and especially
Well, that 8-9 point reduction in Clinton's lead over the past fortnight is very different from what the national polls in general have been showing. Rasmussen's figures seem erratic to me.
Of course, you may be right that even Rasmussen's polls are underestimating Trump's support. But this school of thought does seem eerily reminiscent of the insistence that the polls were underestimating Romney's support last time.
RCP has Clinton's average lead down to 5% today. What did for Romney was higher than expected minority and black turnout for Obama, that will not be the case for Hillary, the black vote in particular backs her with gritted teeth. Trump meanwhile connects with the white working class in a way no candidate has done since Reagan
But she is getting more women and more hispanics.
He aint no regan.
Trump is getting more men and Trump could win even if he lost Hispanic rich Colorado, New Mexico, Florida and Nevada if he wins Michigan and Pennsylvania, Minnesota or Wisconsin, Ohio and Iowa and holds the Romney states
But take 3 from Clinton....and you've got a fight.
The "add 3" to Clinton was surely because these are Rasmussen polls which are widely seen as having an inbuilt GOP bias.
Rasmussen got the 2004 election, the last GOP presidential win, spot on. They were wrong in 2012 mainly because of the higher than expected minority turnout, this year minority voters are
Taking those four Rasmussen polls at face value would still give St Hillary a fairly comfortable win, wouldn't it?
Nationally Rasmussen has Trump ahead and Ohio going to Trump would be the first time it had not gone to the winning candidate since 1960 if he lost
Be that as it may, it's not going to be sufficient this time for Trump to win Ohio, if he loses Florida, North Carolina and Pennsylvania, as those Rasmussen state polls indicate (taken at face value).
And maybe there is an inconsistency between Rasmussen's national and state polling. But their national polling does seem quite erratic - the last five polls have included a Clinton lead of 7 and two Trump leads of 2, which seems like a larger variation than would be expected.
As an earlier posted poll showed Florida and especially
Well, that 8-9 point reduction in blockquote>
RCP has Clinton's average lead down to 5% today. What did for Romney was higher than expected minority and black turnout for Obama, that will not be the case for Hillary, the black vote in particular backs her with gritted teeth. Trump meanwhile connects with the white working class in a way no candidate has done since Reagan
The ongoing Brexit debate could be killed stone dead by a competent government with a plan that went some way to address the concerns of those who voted Remain.
What we have now is a vacuum and zero confidence. What the government does say spooks the markets and picks at wounds.
They need to get a grip.
I think so too.
May dithering while the three stooges fight amongst themselves are doing us no favours at all.
May got 5 min at 1 o'clock in the morning on Thursday. Humiliation begins.
It was the EU which was humiliated today after the failure of CETA, not May
That story had a huge downside for us. Whilst it showed the EU is broken in some ways, it showed that the trade deals that we will rely on are difficult and fragile.
A UK deal with Canada will certainly be less 'difficult and fragile' than any EU deal with Canada that eventually emerges
Leavers won't make a success of Brexit by alienating - in word and deed - the wealth creating Remainers.
Absolutely not. And I am more than willing to listen to remainers, because they have many valid points.
But Leavers can do that without having to listen to Meeks call all Leavers cretinous and malevolent and refuse any viewpoint other than his own. There are more than enough reasonable remainers to engage in order to have as considered a Brexit as possible. Indeed, there are plenty on this site, you included.
But take 3 from Clinton....and you've got a fight.
The "add 3" to Clinton was surely because these are Rasmussen polls which are widely seen as having an inbuilt GOP bias.
Rasmussen got the 2004 election, the last GOP presidential win, spot on. They were wrong in 2012 mainly because of the higher than expected minority turnout, this year minority voters are
Taking those four Rasmussen polls at face value would still give St Hillary a fairly comfortable win, wouldn't it?
Nationally Rasmussen has Trump ahead and Ohio going to Trump would be the first time it had not gone to the winning candidate since 1960 if he lost
Be that as it may, it's not going to be sufficient this time for Trump to win Ohio, if he loses Florida, North Carolina and Pennsylvania, as those .
As an earlier posted poll showed Florida and especially
Well, that 8-9 point reduction in Clinton's lead over the past fortnight is very different from what the national polls in general have been showing. Rasmussen's figures seem erratic to me.
Of course, you may be right that even Rasmussen's polls are underestimating Trump's support. But this school of thought does seem eerily reminiscent of the insistence that the polls were underestimating Romney's support last time.
RCP has Clinton's average lead down to 5% today. What did for Romney was higher than expected minority and black turnout for Obama, that will not be the case for Hillary, the black vote in particular backs her with gritted teeth. Trump meanwhile connects with the white working class in a way no candidate has done since Reagan
But she is getting more women and more hispanics.
He aint no regan.
Trump is getting more men and Trump could win even if he lost Hispanic rich Colorado, New Mexico, Florida and Nevada if he wins Michigan and Pennsylvania, Minnesota or Wisconsin, Ohio and Iowa and holds the Romney states
If the polls are correct, Clinton wins around 340 ECVs, gaining North Carolina whilst losing Iowa. Ohio is very tight on the night but ultimately it is a solid Clinton win.
If the polls are wrong, either Trump wins or it is a Clinton landslide.
'It's the complete absence of any plan, four months on from the referendum, that is so unsettling.'
So you know that for sure or maybe the running commentary bit is for real ?
because they haven't told you a plan that doesn't mean the there isn't one.
Who do you think you are you are that you should be notitfied of such a plan
That there isn't yet a detailed plan is, I'm afraid down to Cameron. He's the one who chose to rush through rushed the referendum and who failed, as Prime Minister, to accept that there was any prospect whatever of a "Leave" outcome. In such circumstances, it's hardly surprising that it's taking some time to piece things together, particularly if the Civil Service are being obstructive at every turn which I very much suspect is the case.
If the polls are correct, Clinton wins around 340 ECVs, gaining North Carolina whilst losing Iowa. Ohio is very tight on the night but ultimately it is a solid Clinton win.
If the polls are wrong, either Trump wins or it is a Clinton landslide.
You have a certain way, Pulpstar, of expressing things in a very stark yet accurate manner.
I'd sort of got used to the time-honoured mantra which dictated that whoever won Ohio and Florida won the Presidency. Is that no longer the case?
If the polls are correct, Clinton wins around 340 ECVs, gaining North Carolina whilst losing Iowa. Ohio is very tight on the night but ultimately it is a solid Clinton win.
If the polls are wrong, either Trump wins or it is a Clinton landslide.
You have a certain way, Pulpstar, of expressing things in a very stark yet accurate manner.
I'd sort of got used to the time-honoured mantra which dictated that whoever won Ohio and Florida won the Presidency. Is that no longer the case?
It'll probably be the case - but Hillary CAN lose both and still win.
In fact: Brexit will happen, we won't get a good deal from the EU and the rest of the world will effectively ignore us.
Sorry.
The words of a traitor.
We've now extended ' Traitor ' fromundle of laughs.
Remainers and Leavers continue to despise each other. If anything the emotion is intensifying. The onus is on Leavers to consider how they intend converting discord to harmony if they want their hobby horse project to succeed.
I don't feel you on the subject.
Perhaps you can pass the memo on to those of your fellow Leavers who continue to call Remainers traitors and quislings.
No problem. Happy to do so.
Will you also commit to dial down the invective on your side as well?
I have nothing to dial down.
Remember, this is your hobby horse and you have to make this work. I continue to regard the Leave campaignheir way through our political bloodstream. Leavers have to wo doing their level best to reinforce it make a success of Brexit. We have absolutely no obligation to change your perceptions, and frankly at this point, given your cretinous malevolence, don't give a shit about them.
Leavers won't make a success of Brexit by alienating - in word and deed - the wealth creating Remainers.
As is increasingly apparent here, some Remainers are entirely capable of alienating themselves. They've been thinking themselves out of Britain and our common ground since June 24th
If you keep telling people how appalling they are they'll get the message. That applies on both sih creators. Even the despised Mr Meeks.
I'm afraid that is utter balls. Leave won precisely because an awful lot of wealth creators joined forces with our brothers and sisters across the nation and voted for it.
Myself included.
Some did. Most didn't. The non-productive won it for Leave.
Indescribable snobbery. Just unbelievable. If you were in front of me now I would punch you in the face.
No, you wouldn't! It's just a fact that those who do not work broke heavily for Leave. Pointing this out is not snobbery. For Brexit to work, the wealth creators have to keep creating wealth.
No, you wouldn't! It's just a fact that those who do not work broke heavily for Leave. Pointing this out is not snobbery. For Brexit to work, the wealth creators have to keep creating wealth.
Comments
Do you think it would have been allowed for her to stop all non-EU Catholics at the border? Or only allow women in? There are legal restrictions on just about anything anyone can do at any time. That's a curse of our daily life.
But Leavers can do that without having to listen to Meeks call all Leavers cretinous and malevolent and refuse any viewpoint other than his own. There are more than enough reasonable remainers to engage in order to have as considered a Brexit as possible. Indeed, there are plenty on this site, you included.
'It's the complete absence of any plan, four months on from the referendum, that is so unsettling.'
So you know that for sure or maybe the running commentary bit is for real ?
Who do you think you are you are that you should be notitfied of such a plan
If the polls are correct, Clinton wins around 340 ECVs, gaining North Carolina whilst losing Iowa. Ohio is very tight on the night but ultimately it is a solid Clinton win.
If the polls are wrong, either Trump wins or it is a Clinton landslide.
In such circumstances, it's hardly surprising that it's taking some time to piece things together, particularly if the Civil Service are being obstructive at every turn which I very much suspect is the case.
I'd sort of got used to the time-honoured mantra which dictated that whoever won Ohio and Florida won the Presidency. Is that no longer the case?