Unlikely as it is, if Hammond goes I can see Boris following. It would be the perfect excuse to extricate himself from a devastated government and the ensuing horror show. He can then return as the Tories' savour later on in the piece (if it isn't all too late by then, of course).
Remoaners talking about a devastated government are engaging in the most delusional of wishful thinking. There are no real obstacles to the current government that cannot be overcome - except the rest of Europe - who can be blamed if they play silly beggars.
I think some of the Remain hard core would rather see Corbyn in power, just so long as they got May out of office.
Says the man who spent the last few years supporting a party dedicated to removing Cameron from office.
Let me explain the initials UKIP for you...
Little to do with Cameron, almost everything to do with his Europhilia.
The idea that Cameron was some kind of foaming Europhile is farcical.
Cavalier in his constitutional responsbilities, yes. Unconvinced by the case for leaving the EU, certainly. An incompetent negotiator, I'll let you have.
To headbangers like you, everyone's a Europhile. Indeed use of the word is one of the classic symptoms of headbangerism.
Possibly, you have a terminal case.
If you had been here more than 5 minutes, you'd realise that I had been a huge cheerleader for my fellow BNC alumnus for a decade. I dedicated a decent proportion of 2015 helping to get him a majority.
I was on the fence and hoped to be persuaded by a decent deal. I wasn't. And on top of domestic balls ups - especially the 2016 Budget - demonstrated how out of touch Cameron and Osborne were with our people.
If I'm a headbanger, then so are the majority of the Tory supporting public. You know - the highest number in all current opinion polls. Overwhelmingly.
To be fair, Mrs Thatcher also spent many, many years at odds with her chancellor.
.
This is the problem in a nutshell. The problem is that 52% is NOT any kind of resounding, absolute mandate. It is paraded about as if it was such a unaminous decision there is no way back. We are all brexiters now. blah blah blah. As if it was 96/4 or something, like the Hungarian migrant referendum. Or even 68/32, like the 1975 result. But 52/48 is nothing like that. Motivated leavers only make up a relatively small part of the 52%. Many others will have been persuaded by claims made in the referendum. I won't rehearse them here, but many of the claims have been discredited by events. The longer the gov't put off triggering Art 50, the more this becomes apparent. They want to freeze June 24th in time. But the world is very volatile and things are changing rapidly in politics. This is the leavers dilemma.
yes - this. The post referendum phase saw the agenda seized by a hard brexit minority. I think May's correlation between the referendum result and the hard brexit agenda, even if it is only a negotiating stance, is an attempt to thrust us in a minority direction, that is what the current parliamentary debate is all about . And what many Eurosceptic remainers (like myself) feared most about the referendum. There is no mandate for Hard Brexit, as George Osborne says.
Leave said they'd be outside of the single market. There is therefore most definitely a mandate.
Which Leave? There were multiple Leaves, and no particular manifesto. That's why when Cameron resigned, Gove et al shrugged and screamed "we weren't supposed to come up with a plan!"
In that, they were right.
And you are wrong.
Leave/Independence is whatever the government of the day decide. It's subject to perpetual change as we change governments and the electorate revises it's wishes. Fairly easy concept, surely?
as is the idea that everyone else, from its own MPs through the opposition down to us lowly mortals following events, is perfectly entitled to lobby, argue and pressure for our own preferred direction.
More important at this stage to keep toxifying the brand of and dismantling the psychology of Brexit. It was portrayed as a super Brand. Something you could buy that would instantly make a younger and fitter and sexier. It was portrayed a fresh start. A national diet or detox or new Gym membership. Every day that passes, every complication, every compromise, every abandoned pledge helps toxify the Brexit Brand. We don't even have to make Brexit very unpopular. Just level the Killing Field. We can turn Brexit into just another government policy carried out by just more politicans. Pluses and minuses but just more politics. We need to aim for the late January effect where everyone is sick of the diet, no one has been paid since Christmas and the gym membership is unused. Then we can start of stage 2 which is making Brexit May's Poll Tax. But we need Stage 1 first. There are no short cuts. Dig in chaps this is only just starting.
This is the problem in a nutshell. The problem is that 52% is NOT any kind of resounding, absolute mandate. It is paraded about as if it was such a unaminous decision there is no way back. We are all brexiters now. blah blah blah. As if it was 96/4 or something, like the Hungarian migrant referendum. Or even 68/32, like the 1975 result. But 52/48 is nothing like that. Motivated leavers only make up a relatively small part of the 52%. Many others will have been persuaded by claims made in the referendum. I won't rehearse them here, but many of the claims have been discredited by events. The longer the gov't put off triggering Art 50, the more this becomes apparent. They want to freeze June 24th in time. But the world is very volatile and things are changing rapidly in politics. This is the leavers dilemma.
Scotland Leave/Yes polled 45% and lost in SIndy, yet who is driving the agenda up there? The Leave UK lot.
Why? They have one aim that unifies them beyond usual tribal affiliation.
Scotland Remain/No bods however loathe each other, so are divided and a pretty incompetent electoral force as a consequence.
Transpose that onto the EU debate and then try to imagine Corbyn sympathisers voting Osborne, and Osborne fans voting Jezza.
It's fairly obvious that working class Labour and UKIP leavers will back Theresa just as Tartan Tories and Glaswegian Labourites have backed Sturgeon to dominance up in Scotland.
Unlikely as it is, if Hammond goes I can see Boris following. It would be the perfect excuse to extricate himself from a devastated government and the ensuing horror show. He can then return as the Tories' savour later on in the piece (if it isn't all too late by then, of course).
Remoaners talking about a devastated government are engaging in the most delusional of wishful thinking. There are no real obstacles to the current government that cannot be overcome - except the rest of Europe - who can be blamed if they play silly beggars.
I think some of the Remain hard core would rather see Corbyn in power, just so long as they got May out of office.
Says the man who spent the last few years supporting a party dedicated to removing Cameron from office.
Let me explain the initials UKIP for you...
Little to do with Cameron, almost everything to do with his Europhilia.
The idea that Cameron was some kind of foaming Europhile is farcical.
Cavalier in his constitutional responsbilities, yes. Unconvinced by the case for leaving the EU, certainly. An incompetent negotiator, I'll let you have.
To headbangers like you, everyone's a Europhile. Indeed use of the word is one of the classic symptoms of headbangerism.
Possibly, you have a terminal case.
How would you describe someone who by his own admission would never have argued that we should Leave?
Unconvinced, as above. Or would you have him argue against his beliefs?
But, lack of conviction in Brexit does not make you a "Europhile". To claim that is just the political equivalent of "locker room talk".
This is the problem in a nutshell. The problem is that 52% is NOT any kind of resounding, absolute mandate. It is paraded about as if it was such a unaminous decision there is no way back. We are all brexiters now. blah blah blah. As if it was 96/4 or something, like the Hungarian migrant referendum. Or even 68/32, like the 1975 result. But 52/48 is nothing like that. Motivated leavers only make up a relatively small part of the 52%. Many others will have been persuaded by claims made in the referendum. I won't rehearse them here, but many of the claims have been discredited by events. The longer the gov't put off triggering Art 50, the more this becomes apparent. They want to freeze June 24th in time. But the world is very volatile and things are changing rapidly in politics. This is the leavers dilemma.
Ok what figure was needed. Why was that figure stated before the polls opened? I would suggestRemain thought they were going to win and win easily so didn't bother. As they did not bother then it works on a majority unless you can point me to anywhere, anywhere at all that states it must be a 53% minimum or more is required or for that matter any figure? Any at all anywhere???
If you can't then just give it a rest eh?
It was a majority on the terms Cameron set. Vote leave then I will trigger article 50 the next day and the world will end etc. Cameron didn't trigger article 50. Osborne, Carney and co calmed down the markets. Cameron Quit. The 'phoney peace' began. The world didn't end. The daily express propaganda machine told us the economy was booming. etc etc Unfortuanately for you guys, the terms of the debate changed.
More important at this stage to keep toxifying the brand of and dismantling the psychology of Brexit. It was portrayed as a super Brand. Something you could buy that would instantly make a younger and fitter and sexier. It was portrayed a fresh start. A national diet or detox or new Gym membership. Every day that passes, every complication, every compromise, every abandoned pledge helps toxify the Brexit Brand. We don't even have to make Brexit very unpopular. Just level the Killing Field. We can turn Brexit into just another government policy carried out by just more politicans. Pluses and minuses but just more politics. We need to aim for the late January effect where everyone is sick of the diet, no one has been paid since Christmas and the gym membership is unused. Then we can start of stage 2 which is making Brexit May's Poll Tax. But we need Stage 1 first. There are no short cuts. Dig in chaps this is only just starting.
Or you could make the positive case for EU membership?
This is the problem in a nutshell. The problem is that 52% is NOT any kind of resounding, absolute mandate. It is paraded about as if it was such a unaminous decision there is no way back. We are all brexiters now. blah blah blah. As if it was 96/4 or something, like the Hungarian migrant referendum. Or even 68/32, like the 1975 result. But 52/48 is nothing like that. Motivated leavers only make up a relatively small part of the 52%. Many others will have been persuaded by claims made in the referendum. I won't rehearse them here, but many of the claims have been discredited by events. The longer the gov't put off triggering Art 50, the more this becomes apparent. They want to freeze June 24th in time. But the world is very volatile and things are changing rapidly in politics. This is the leavers dilemma.
Ok what figure was needed. Why was that figure stated before the polls opened? I would suggestRemain thought they were going to win and win easily so didn't bother. As they did not bother then it works on a majority unless you can point me to anywhere, anywhere at all that states it must be a 53% minimum or more is required or for that matter any figure? Any at all anywhere???
If you can't then just give it a rest eh?
It was a majority on the terms Cameron set. Vote leave then I will trigger article 50 the next day and the world will end etc. Cameron didn't trigger article 50. Osborne, Carney and co calmed down the markets. Cameron Quit. The 'phoney peace' began. The world didn't end. The daily express propaganda machine told us the economy was booming. etc etc Unfortuanately for you guys, the terms of the debate changed.
So no figure then, anywhere...at all. What a surprise. Give it a rest then eh?
Unlikely as it is, if Hammond goes I can see Boris following. It would be the perfect excuse to extricate himself from a devastated government and the ensuing horror show. He can then return as the Tories' savour later on in the piece (if it isn't all too late by then, of course).
Remoaners talking about a devastated government are engaging in the most delusional of wishful thinking. There are no real obstacles to the current government that cannot be overcome - except the rest of Europe - who can be blamed if they play silly beggars.
I think some of the Remain hard core would rather see Corbyn in power, just so long as they got May out of office.
Says the man who spent the last few years supporting a party dedicated to removing Cameron from office.
Let me explain the initials UKIP for you...
Little to do with Cameron, almost everything to do with his Europhilia.
The idea that Cameron was some kind of foaming Europhile is farcical.
Cavalier in his constitutional responsbilities, yes. Unconvinced by the case for leaving the EU, certainly. An incompetent negotiator, I'll let you have.
To headbangers like you, everyone's a Europhile. Indeed use of the word is one of the classic symptoms of headbangerism.
Possibly, you have a terminal case.
How would you describe someone who by his own admission would never have argued that we should Leave?
Unconvinced, as above. Or would you have him argue against his beliefs?
But, lack of conviction in Brexit does not make you a "Europhile". To claim that is just the political equivalent of "locker room talk".
It wasn't a lack of conviction in Leave, it was that he always thought we should Remain. A Europhile.
This is the problem in a nutshell. The problem is that 52% is NOT any kind of resounding, absolute mandate. It is paraded about as if it was such a unaminous decision there is no way back. We are all brexiters now. blah blah blah. As if it was 96/4 or something, like the Hungarian migrant referendum. Or even 68/32, like the 1975 result. But 52/48 is nothing like that. Motivated leavers only make up a relatively small part of the 52%. Many others will have been persuaded by claims made in the referendum. I won't rehearse them here, but many of the claims have been discredited by events. The longer the gov't put off triggering Art 50, the more this becomes apparent. They want to freeze June 24th in time. But the world is very volatile and things are changing rapidly in politics. This is the leavers dilemma.
Scotland Leave/Yes polled 45% and lost in SIndy, yet who is driving the agenda up there? The Leave UK lot.
Why? They have one aim that unifies them beyond usual tribal affiliation.
Scotland Remain/No bods however loathe each other, so are divided and a pretty incompetent electoral force as a consequence.
Transpose that onto the EU debate and then try to imagine Corbyn sympathisers voting Osborne, and Osborne fans voting Jezza.
It's fairly obvious that working class Labour and Sour AlbaUKIP leavers will back Theresa just as Tartan Tories and Glaswegian Labourites have backed Sturgeon to dominance up in Scotland.
Unlikely as it is, if Hammond goes I can see Boris following. It would be the perfect excuse to extricate himself from a devastated government and the ensuing horror show. He can then return as the Tories' savour later on in the piece (if it isn't all too late by then, of course).
Remoaners talking about a devastated government are engaging in the most delusional of wishful thinking. There are no real obstacles to the current government that cannot be overcome - except the rest of Europe - who can be blamed if they play silly beggars.
I think some of the Remain hard core would rather see Corbyn in power, just so long as they got May out of office.
Says the man who spent the last few years supporting a party dedicated to removing Cameron from office.
Let me explain the initials UKIP for you...
Little to do with Cameron, almost everything to do with his Europhilia.
The idea that Cameron was some kind of foaming Europhile is farcical.
Cavalier in his constitutional responsbilities, yes. Unconvinced by the case for leaving the EU, certainly. An incompetent negotiator, I'll let you have.
To headbangers like you, everyone's a Europhile. Indeed use of the word is one of the classic symptoms of headbangerism.
Possibly, you have a terminal case.
If you had been here more than 5 minutes, you'd realise that I had been a huge cheerleader for my fellow BNC alumnus for a decade. I dedicated a decent proportion of 2015 helping to get him a majority.
I was on the fence and hoped to be persuaded by a decent deal. I wasn't. And on top of domestic balls ups - especially the 2016 Budget - demonstrated how out of touch Cameron and Osborne were with our people.
If I'm a headbanger, then so are the majority of the Tory supporting public. You know - the highest number in all current opinion polls. Overwhelmingly.
I'm calling you a headbanger because you keep calling Remainer Tories/Orange Bookers/Miliband type Labourites as headbangers and you describe David Cameron as a "Europhile".
I think the first claim is an attempt to delegitimise the centre of public opinion, and the second is as explained just farcical.
I picked up on this a while ago. Media running "Fact Check!!!" Articles full of partisan spin and semantic nitpicking really don't inform the public about anything except media bias.
There is also the bias by omission. CNN live "fact checking" on the second debate was basically all checks on what Trump said, I think only 2 on Clinton, of which neither were big claims.
Now one might say that is because Trump just comes out with whoppers every other sentence, but even from that link Clinton when she screams fact check fact check on my website, actually she isn't being truthful.
The US network 'news' is completely unwatchable now, for all the reasons discussed ad nausium for weeks on here.
I wonder if someone might get the idea that especially in the run up to an election, an impartial news channel - run along the same sort of editorial lines as the UK operates - might be a massive gap in the market for those who wish to be informed, rather than told (loudly) what to think?
From the top of my head, four organisations could do it, free of political ads: PBS HBO Netflix Amazon.
Four years from now the media market in the US will be very different from what it is now, with the latter two on my list much more dominant than they are in 2016. It will be interesting to see if anyone takes up my idea.
Unlikely as it is, if Hammond goes I can see Boris following. It would be the perfect excuse to extricate himself from a devastated government and the ensuing horror show. He can then return as the Tories' savour later on in the piece (if it isn't all too late by then, of course).
Remoaners talking about a devastated government are engaging in the most delusional of wishful thinking. There are no real obstacles to the current government that cannot be overcome - except the rest of Europe - who can be blamed if they play silly beggars.
I think some of the Remain hard core would rather see Corbyn in power, just so long as they got May out of office.
Says the man who spent the last few years supporting a party dedicated to removing Cameron from office.
Let me explain the initials UKIP for you...
Little to do with Cameron, almost everything to do with his Europhilia.
The idea that Cameron was some kind of foaming Europhile is farcical.
Cavalier in his constitutional responsbilities, yes. Unconvinced by the case for leaving the EU, certainly. An incompetent negotiator, I'll let you have.
To headbangers like you, everyone's a Europhile. Indeed use of the word is one of the classic symptoms of headbangerism.
Possibly, you have a terminal case.
If you had been here more than 5 minutes, you'd realise that I had been a huge cheerleader for my fellow BNC alumnus for a decade. I dedicated a decent proportion of 2015 helping to get him a majority.
I was on the fence and hoped to be persuaded by a decent deal. I wasn't. And on top of domestic balls ups - especially the 2016 Budget - demonstrated how out of touch Cameron and Osborne were with our people.
If I'm a headbanger, then so are the majority of the Tory supporting public. You know - the highest number in all current opinion polls. Overwhelmingly.
I'm calling you a headbanger because you keep calling Remainer Tories/Orange Bookers/Miliband type Labourites as headbangers and you describe David Cameron as a "Europhile".
I think the first claim is an attempt to delegitimise the centre of public opinion, and the second is as explained just farcical.
Headbangers continue to moan about one issue to the exclusion of all others. And they try to frustrate the government.
Remarkably, the new headbangers also want to frustrate the will of the people. Perhaps given their Europhilia we should call them Les Headbangers. Sounds like a perfect description of Soubry et al to me.
More important at this stage to keep toxifying the brand of and dismantling the psychology of Brexit. It was portrayed as a super Brand. Something you could buy that would instantly make a younger and fitter and sexier. It was portrayed a fresh start. A national diet or detox or new Gym membership. Every day that passes, every complication, every compromise, every abandoned pledge helps toxify the Brexit Brand. We don't even have to make Brexit very unpopular. Just level the Killing Field. We can turn Brexit into just another government policy carried out by just more politicans. Pluses and minuses but just more politics. We need to aim for the late January effect where everyone is sick of the diet, no one has been paid since Christmas and the gym membership is unused. Then we can start of stage 2 which is making Brexit May's Poll Tax. But we need Stage 1 first. There are no short cuts. Dig in chaps this is only just starting.
Or you could make the positive case for EU membership?
Ah, no, I see the problem with that now.
You won. We lost. You are the Master's now. You have a Brexit led government committed to delivering Brexit. Keeping as much of the eurosphere as possible for the UK is now an opposition campaign and needs to function as such. With the added advantage of the eurosphere being the Status Quo. We don't need to achieve anything just stop/limit your changes. Europhobia plated on opposition status very well for 43 years. But you won so the roles are reversed now. You'll get used to it eventually.
This is the problem in a nutshell. The problem is that 52% is NOT any kind of resounding, absolute mandate. It is paraded about as if it was such a unaminous decision there is no way back. We are all brexiters now. blah blah blah. As if it was 96/4 or something, like the Hungarian migrant referendum. Or even 68/32, like the 1975 result. But 52/48 is nothing like that. Motivated leavers only make up a relatively small part of the 52%. Many others will have been persuaded by claims made in the referendum. I won't rehearse them here, but many of the claims have been discredited by events. The longer the gov't put off triggering Art 50, the more this becomes apparent. They want to freeze June 24th in time. But the world is very volatile and things are changing rapidly in politics. This is the leavers dilemma.
Ok what figure was needed. Why was that figure stated before the polls opened? I would suggestRemain thought they were going to win and win easily so didn't bother. As they did not bother then it works on a majority unless you can point me to anywhere, anywhere at all that states it must be a 53% minimum or more is required or for that matter any figure? Any at all anywhere???
If you can't then just give it a rest eh?
It was a majority on the terms Cameron set. Vote leave then I will trigger article 50 the next day and the world will end etc. Cameron didn't trigger article 50. Osborne, Carney and co calmed down the markets. Cameron Quit. The 'phoney peace' began. The world didn't end. The daily express propaganda machine told us the economy was booming. etc etc Unfortuanately for you guys, the terms of the debate changed.
So no figure then, anywhere...at all. What a surprise. Give it a rest then eh?
You seem awfully keen on telling people to give it a rest.
Interesting piece of gossip I picked up this weekend. Can't vouch for its accuracy.
Apparently Boris emailed Cameron *midway through* the Brexit campaign to explore defecting. Someone in Cameron's office decided that he didn't need to see that email so didn't pass it on...
If the EU want to play hardball, fine, we'll just reduce security co-operation. They want to talk big? Lets see them deal with that, the bastards. Your EU employed officials can be ignored, the national governments of the large EU nations where the power is really held will understand the meaning.
As for that bunch at Westminster who don't understand what referendums are about, good luck to Labour in particular, as the areas in the North of England who voted for no, by some margin in many cases, react to attempts to turn that vote on its head.
Why don't we for a moment take what the EU says at face value.
Suppose there is no "being pushed toward a softer BrExit", maybe there is only "IN", or there is "WTO". Maybe we are dreaming about Soft BrExit and it doesn't exist.
A full four-freedoms IN is a guaranteed election loss, with no possibility of shifting the blame onto anyone else, and quite likely 25% for the UKIPs even if they are led by Mr Punch.
So she has a choice of a guaranteed election lose, or a maybe election loss if it goes badly and she doesn't manage to blame someone else.
The other discussion this weekend was whether Article 263 withdrawal would be a viable alternative to Article 50 (which would also have the benefit of irritating the French). Does anyone know how that would work?
If the EU want to play hardball, fine, we'll just reduce security co-operation. They want to talk big? Lets see them deal with that, the bastards. Your EU employed officials can be ignored, the national governments of the large EU nations where the power is really held will understand the meaning.
As for that bunch at Westminster who don't understand what referendums are about, good luck to Labour in particular, as the areas in the North of England who voted for no, by some margin in many cases, react to attempts to turn that vote on its head.
Would be very brave, and poison UK/Europe relations for many years.
Its the nuclear weapon of Brexit. Nice to know we have it, but hope we never use it.
This is the problem in a nutshell. The problem is that 52% is NOT any kind of resounding, absolute mandate. It is paraded about as if it was such a unaminous decision there is no way back. We are all brexiters now. blah blah blah. As if it was 96/4 or something, like the Hungarian migrant referendum. Or even 68/32, like the 1975 result. But 52/48 is nothing like that. Motivated leavers only make up a relatively small part of the 52%. Many others will have been persuaded by claims made in the referendum. I won't rehearse them here, but many of the claims have been discredited by events. The longer the gov't put off triggering Art 50, the more this becomes apparent. They want to freeze June 24th in time. But the world is very volatile and things are changing rapidly in politics. This is the leavers dilemma.
Scotland Leave/Yes polled 45% and lost in SIndy, yet who is driving the agenda up there? The Leave UK lot.
Why? They have one aim that unifies them beyond usual tribal affiliation.
Scotland Remain/No bods however loathe each other, so are divided and a pretty incompetent electoral force as a consequence.
Transpose that onto the EU debate and then try to imagine Corbyn sympathisers voting Osborne, and Osborne fans voting Jezza.
It's fairly obvious that working class Labour and Sour AlbaUKIP leavers will back Theresa just as Tartan Tories and Glaswegian Labourites have backed Sturgeon to dominance up in Scotland.
Saor Alba
Sour Alba
with Nicola Vinegar
Dear Dear Alan, not up to your usual standards. Hope all is well with you , given they are going radio rental down south.
Suppose there is no "being pushed toward a softer BrExit", maybe there is only "IN", or there is "WTO". Maybe we are dreaming about Soft BrExit and it doesn't exist.
If the EU want to play hardball, fine, we'll just reduce security co-operation. They want to talk big? Lets see them deal with that, the bastards. Your EU employed officials can be ignored, the national governments of the large EU nations where the power is really held will understand the meaning.
As for that bunch at Westminster who don't understand what referendums are about, good luck to Labour in particular, as the areas in the North of England who voted for no, by some margin in many cases, react to attempts to turn that vote on its head.
LOL, will we remove our handful of bathtubs and couple of platoons of infantry.
If Hammond does go there are plenty of highly qualified eurosceptics that can replace him. John Redwood, Kwasi Kwarteng or Adam Afriyie. He'd be wise to Remain in post. Historically has a recent chancellor ever quit before their first budget/statement?
Interesting piece of gossip I picked up this weekend. Can't vouch for its accuracy.
Apparently Boris emailed Cameron *midway through* the Brexit campaign to explore defecting. Someone in Cameron's office decided that he didn't need to see that email so didn't pass it on...
Wow if true.
Surely he'd have picked up the phone to speak to the PM's Diary Secretary directly, if he had wanted a serious discussion about it?
There are going to be several good books written about the last 18 months in British politics. And some more written about the same period in American politics.
I can well understand why the incoming PM didn't want any of the outgoing PMs staff around for a minute longer than necessary.
This is the problem in a nutshell. The problem is that 52% is NOT any kind of resounding, absolute mandate. It is paraded about as if it was such a unaminous decision there is no way back. We are all brexiters now. blah blah blah. As if it was 96/4 or something, like the Hungarian migrant referendum. Or even 68/32, like the 1975 result. But 52/48 is nothing like that. Motivated leavers only make up a relatively small part of the 52%. Many others will have been persuaded by claims made in the referendum. I won't rehearse them here, but many of the claims have been discredited by events. The longer the gov't put off triggering Art 50, the more this becomes apparent. They want to freeze June 24th in time. But the world is very volatile and things are changing rapidly in politics. This is the leavers dilemma.
Scotland Leave/Yes polled 45% and lost in SIndy, yet who is driving the agenda up there? The Leave UK lot.
Why? They have one aim that unifies them beyond usual tribal affiliation.
Scotland Remain/No bods however loathe each other, so are divided and a pretty incompetent electoral force as a consequence.
Transpose that onto the EU debate and then try to imagine Corbyn sympathisers voting Osborne, and Osborne fans voting Jezza.
It's fairly obvious that working class Labour and Sour AlbaUKIP leavers will back Theresa just as Tartan Tories and Glaswegian Labourites have backed Sturgeon to dominance up in Scotland.
Saor Alba
Sour Alba
with Nicola Vinegar
Dear Dear Alan, not up to your usual standards. Hope all is well with you , given they are going radio rental down south.
Ive not seen anything mental in the Midalnds. Nobody's talking Brexit down here it's mostly stuff for the London chatterati.
I think theyre struggling with the fact they can be ignored.
Mr. Charles, if someone saw that and then thought it didn't need passing on they're bloody stupid.
If it's true.
Unless Mr Charles is part of a very small circle close to no. 10 (in which case I wonder whether he would have posted the rumour at all) I would have thought such a suggestion would have made it onto order-order or somewhere similar, by now (if true)(edit/and quite possibly if not)?
FWIW...I was having lunch today, and I came to the real conclusion that May is just game playing...the whole thing. Hammond too. It's a classy double act..in reality they are thick as thieves. This is all just one charade..May threw some red meat with the grammar schools that will not happen, and now she is using the prospect of hard Brexit, and all that entails to ball bust a few folk, and make it look like she's trying.
I've seen the film...at the end all is well. We'll stay in the single market and May will get some extra concessions on immigration, but we have to go through the dramas first.
What I certainly agree is true is that everyone is on maneuvers at the moment - The EU, the Government, the CBI, the banks etc.
Interpreting every rumour as Trafalgar or the Retreat From Kabul is ludicrous. The real value at the moment is trying to see what has actually happened, and why.
For example, the Hinkley Point. One thing that no-one has mentioned was the EDF/French government position on it. I would not be surprised if the delay on the deal was at least partly based on calculating whether the French wanted the plan to go ahead (and which group of the French wanted what), and what that would be worth in diplomatic chips. There was quite a large group in EDF (and the French Government by extension) that didn't want the deal to go ahead - they thought it would be damaging to EDF.
Does anyone know much about the pro Hinkley point/EDF people on the French side of things, politically?
If the EU want to play hardball, fine, we'll just reduce security co-operation. They want to talk big? Lets see them deal with that, the bastards. Your EU employed officials can be ignored, the national governments of the large EU nations where the power is really held will understand the meaning.
As for that bunch at Westminster who don't understand what referendums are about, good luck to Labour in particular, as the areas in the North of England who voted for no, by some margin in many cases, react to attempts to turn that vote on its head.
LOL, will we remove our handful of bathtubs and couple of platoons of infantry.
I think we offer a little more than that being the only EU member of the Five Eyes.
Interesting piece of gossip I picked up this weekend. Can't vouch for its accuracy.
Apparently Boris emailed Cameron *midway through* the Brexit campaign to explore defecting. Someone in Cameron's office decided that he didn't need to see that email so didn't pass it on...
Surely if Boris was serious, he has a direct line to Dave and / or people very close to Dave that aren't part of the machine. I highly doubt Boris has to go through the plebs to get to talk to member of Cameron's inner circle if required.
Also, if you were thinking doing something like this, you would want it totally off the record i.e not emailing via official channels.
If the EU want to play hardball, fine, we'll just reduce security co-operation. They want to talk big? Lets see them deal with that, the bastards. Your EU employed officials can be ignored, the national governments of the large EU nations where the power is really held will understand the meaning.
As for that bunch at Westminster who don't understand what referendums are about, good luck to Labour in particular, as the areas in the North of England who voted for no, by some margin in many cases, react to attempts to turn that vote on its head.
I love your angle ;-)
The UK has cards to play on the fact London provides the eurozone with much of its liquidity, it can withhold or make budget payments into the EU, provide military cooperation, or not, and our security services which are pack more punch than those of Germany and France combined, and some.
In exchange, the UK needs something extra on migration. So something the EU will give.
Mr. Charles, if someone saw that and then thought it didn't need passing on they're bloody stupid.
If it's true.
Unless Mr Charles is part of a very small circle close to no. 10 (in which case I wonder whether he would have posted the rumour at all) I would have thought such a suggestion would have made it onto order-order or somewhere similar, by now (if true)(edit/and quite possibly if not)?
Alternatively, it was the sort of story planted slightly differently with each of a number of people, in an attempt to flush out the mole who was feeding either Guido or the Leave campaign.
Unlikely as it is, if Hammond goes I can see Boris following. It would be the perfect excuse to extricate himself from a devastated government and the ensuing horror show. He can then return as the Tories' savour later on in the piece (if it isn't all too late by then, of course).
Remoaners talking about a devastated government are engaging in the most delusional of wishful thinking. There are no real obstacles to the current government that cannot be overcome - except the rest of Europe - who can be blamed if they play silly beggars.
There is no way that Brexiters are going to get away with continuing to blame "the rest of Europe" fit things go tits up, it will be a shambles entirely of their own making.
More important at this stage to keep toxifying the brand of and dismantling the psychology of Brexit. It was portrayed as a super Brand. Something you could buy that would instantly make a younger and fitter and sexier. It was portrayed a fresh start. A national diet or detox or new Gym membership. Every day that passes, every complication, every compromise, every abandoned pledge helps toxify the Brexit Brand. We don't even have to make Brexit very unpopular. Just level the Killing Field. We can turn Brexit into just another government policy carried out by just more politicans. Pluses and minuses but just more politics. We need to aim for the late January effect where everyone is sick of the diet, no one has been paid since Christmas and the gym membership is unused. Then we can start of stage 2 which is making Brexit May's Poll Tax. But we need Stage 1 first. There are no short cuts. Dig in chaps this is only just starting.
Or you could make the positive case for EU membership?
(Snip)
It's pointless to try given the attitudes of some on here.
Before the referendum I tried to use the example of mobile phones, where the EU massively helped European companies gain a world footing in the 1980s and 1990s: examples being Vodafone and Nokia, along with many smaller companies. It was relatively minor and boring things (like reserving frequencies and making GSM a mandatory standard). Yet these small enabling changes, done Europe-wide, had a massive effect. And in a quite unusual turn of events, it was all agreed in much less than a year.
These EU rules and MOUs meant that 'our' standard, GSM could be sold around the world with the full force of Europe behind it, whereas the US lost out due to the battle between competing standards. It was a perfect example where cooperation between EU scientists, organisations, and companies, was embraced into EU law to the advantage of everyone. The reservation of frequencies was a particularly vital move.
And as part of the EU, our scientists, organisations, and companies had our say. The UK government were particularly important in pushing it forwards.
Sadly, some Europhobes on here argued against the point, denying that the EU had anything to do with those companies' success, despite all the evidence otherwise. I daresay some of them will be doing so now.
This blindness to fact by some Europhobes was the most annoying thing about the referendum to me: the fact that their religion could not stand *any* contention that there might be *any* good in the EU, whatever the evidence.
Having said that, the EU didn't even try to make a positive case. They were complacent, and no-one has accepted responsibility for that yet. Their failure to even contemplate that people in countries around the EU do not share their vision for Europe is intensely damaging to their project.
Unlikely as it is, if Hammond goes I can see Boris following. It would be the perfect excuse to extricate himself from a devastated government and the ensuing horror show. He can then return as the Tories' savour later on in the piece (if it isn't all too late by then, of course).
Remoaners talking about a devastated government are engaging in the most delusional of wishful thinking. There are no real obstacles to the current government that cannot be overcome - except the rest of Europe - who can be blamed if they play silly beggars.
There is no way that Brexiters are going to get away with continuing to blame "the rest of Europe" fit things go tits up, it will be a shambles entirely of their own making.
If the EU want to play hardball, fine, we'll just reduce security co-operation. They want to talk big? Lets see them deal with that, the bastards. Your EU employed officials can be ignored, the national governments of the large EU nations where the power is really held will understand the meaning.
As for that bunch at Westminster who don't understand what referendums are about, good luck to Labour in particular, as the areas in the North of England who voted for no, by some margin in many cases, react to attempts to turn that vote on its head.
LOL, will we remove our handful of bathtubs and couple of platoons of infantry.
I think we offer a little more than that being the only EU member of the Five Eyes.
Scotland doesn't though, its got a pitiful capability on intelligence security. Literally s**t, zero contribution, zero capability, its nearly all provided by other parts of the UK for them.
Just back from an excellent curry lunch and catching up. Some interesting conversation this afternoon and a special thank you to Mssrs Bedfordshire and Jessop for their earlier comments on trains to the West Country.
Exeter St. Davids station is a mile outside that city for the same reason Cambridge station is about the same distance from Cambridge. The Victorian city fathers of both places didn't want anything to do with the nasty, smelly, modern world.
FWIW...I was having lunch today, and I came to the real conclusion that May is just game playing...the whole thing. Hammond too. It's a classy double act..in reality they are thick as thieves. This is all just one charade..May threw some red meat with the grammar schools that will not happen, and now she is using the prospect of hard Brexit, and all that entails to ball bust a few folk, and make it look like she's trying.
I've seen the film...at the end all is well. We'll stay in the single market and May will get some extra concessions on immigration, but we have to go through the dramas first.
What I certainly agree is true is that everyone is on maneuvers at the moment - The EU, the Government, the CBI, the banks etc.
Interpreting every rumour as Trafalgar or the Retreat From Kabul is ludicrous. The real value at the moment is trying to see what has actually happened, and why.
For example, the Hinkley Point. One thing that no-one has mentioned was the EDF/French government position on it. I would not be surprised if the delay on the deal was at least partly based on calculating whether the French wanted the plan to go ahead (and which group of the French wanted what), and what that would be worth in diplomatic chips. There was quite a large group in EDF (and the French Government by extension) that didn't want the deal to go ahead - they thought it would be damaging to EDF.
Does anyone know much about the pro Hinkley point/EDF people on the French side of things, politically?
It will be very damaging for EDF if they can't get the damn thing working - to the point where the French government would have a somewhat devalued shareholding. That was always my assumption of the political objections to the project.
If the EU want to play hardball, fine, we'll just reduce security co-operation. They want to talk big? Lets see them deal with that, the bastards. Your EU employed officials can be ignored, the national governments of the large EU nations where the power is really held will understand the meaning.
As for that bunch at Westminster who don't understand what referendums are about, good luck to Labour in particular, as the areas in the North of England who voted for no, by some margin in many cases, react to attempts to turn that vote on its head.
LOL, will we remove our handful of bathtubs and couple of platoons of infantry.
I think we offer a little more than that being the only EU member of the Five Eyes.
Scotland doesn't though, its got a pitiful capability on intelligence security. Literally s**t, zero contribution, zero capability, its nearly all provided by other parts of the UK for them.
Hardly surprising as it's not a devolved competence.
Mr. Jessop, indeed. The EU was complacent, and arrogant. The 'deal' Cameron got was worse than none at all because it displayed contempt for the legitimate grievances the electorate had with the EU and our concerns over the way things were going.
More important at this stage to keep toxifying the brand of and dismantling the psychology of Brexit. It was portrayed as a super Brand. Something you could buy that would instantly make a younger and fitter and sexier. It was portrayed a fresh start. A national diet or detox or new Gym membership. Every day that passes, every complication, every compromise, every abandoned pledge helps toxify the Brexit Brand. We don't even have to make Brexit very unpopular. Just level the Killing Field. We can turn Brexit into just another government policy carried out by just more politicans. Pluses and minuses but just more politics. We need to aim for the late January effect where everyone is sick of the diet, no one has been paid since Christmas and the gym membership is unused. Then we can start of stage 2 which is making Brexit May's Poll Tax. But we need Stage 1 first. There are no short cuts. Dig in chaps this is only just starting.
Or you could make the positive case for EU membership?
Ah, no, I see the problem with that now.
You won. We lost. You are the Master's now. You have a Brexit led government committed to delivering Brexit. Keeping as much of the eurosphere as possible for the UK is now an opposition campaign and needs to function as such. With the added advantage of the eurosphere being the Status Quo. We don't need to achieve anything just stop/limit your changes. Europhobia plated on opposition status very well for 43 years. But you won so the roles are reversed now. You'll get used to it eventually.
Agree with most of that, including that Remainers have a right to make the case for their preferred Brexit, but why repeat the tactics which failed to win the referendum?
FWIW...I was having lunch today, and I came to the real conclusion that May is just game playing...the whole thing. Hammond too. It's a classy double act..in reality they are thick as thieves. This is all just one charade..May threw some red meat with the grammar schools that will not happen, and now she is using the prospect of hard Brexit, and all that entails to ball bust a few folk, and make it look like she's trying.
I've seen the film...at the end all is well. We'll stay in the single market and May will get some extra concessions on immigration, but we have to go through the dramas first.
What I certainly agree is true is that everyone is on maneuvers at the moment - The EU, the Government, the CBI, the banks etc.
Interpreting every rumour as Trafalgar or the Retreat From Kabul is ludicrous. The real value at the moment is trying to see what has actually happened, and why.
For example, the Hinkley Point. One thing that no-one has mentioned was the EDF/French government position on it. I would not be surprised if the delay on the deal was at least partly based on calculating whether the French wanted the plan to go ahead (and which group of the French wanted what), and what that would be worth in diplomatic chips. There was quite a large group in EDF (and the French Government by extension) that didn't want the deal to go ahead - they thought it would be damaging to EDF.
Does anyone know much about the pro Hinkley point/EDF people on the French side of things, politically?
It will be very damaging for EDF if they can't get the damn thing working - to the point where the French government would have a somewhat devalued shareholding. That was always my assumption of the political objections to the project.
The interesting bit would be to see who in the French establishment has "won" on this one. That would be actual information.
Mr. Jessop, indeed. The EU was complacent, and arrogant. The 'deal' Cameron got was worse than none at all because it displayed contempt for the legitimate grievances the electorate had with the EU and our concerns over the way things were going.
I disagree. But that ground has been gone over enough, with no side being able to convince the other.
This is the problem in a nutshell. The problem is that 52% is NOT any kind of resounding, absolute mandate. It is paraded about as if it was such a unaminous decision there is no way back. We are all brexiters now. blah blah blah. As if it was 96/4 or something, like the Hungarian migrant referendum. Or even 68/32, like the 1975 result. But 52/48 is nothing like that. Motivated leavers only make up a relatively small part of the 52%. Many others will have been persuaded by claims made in the referendum. I won't rehearse them here, but many of the claims have been discredited by events. The longer the gov't put off triggering Art 50, the more this becomes apparent. They want to freeze June 24th in time. But the world is very volatile and things are changing rapidly in politics. This is the leavers dilemma.
Scotland Leave/Yes polled 45% and lost in SIndy, yet who is driving the agenda up there? The Leave UK lot.
Why? They have one aim that unifies them beyond usual tribal affiliation.
Scotland Remain/No bods however loathe each other, so are divided and a pretty incompetent electoral force as a consequence.
Transpose that onto the EU debate and then try to imagine Corbyn sympathisers voting Osborne, and Osborne fans voting Jezza.
It's fairly obvious that working class Labour and Sour AlbaUKIP leavers will back Theresa just as Tartan Tories and Glaswegian Labourites have backed Sturgeon to dominance up in Scotland.
Saor Alba
Sour Alba
with Nicola Vinegar
Dear Dear Alan, not up to your usual standards. Hope all is well with you , given they are going radio rental down south.
Ive not seen anything mental in the Midalnds. Nobody's talking Brexit down here it's mostly stuff for the London chatterati.
I think theyre struggling with the fact they can be ignored.
I am just listening to Anarchy, been listening to springsteen , Meatloaf , U2 etc all afternoon.....brilliant
Unlikely as it is, if Hammond goes I can see Boris following. It would be the perfect excuse to extricate himself from a devastated government and the ensuing horror show. He can then return as the Tories' savour later on in the piece (if it isn't all too late by then, of course).
Remoaners talking about a devastated government are engaging in the most delusional of wishful thinking. There are no real obstacles to the current government that cannot be overcome - except the rest of Europe - who can be blamed if they play silly beggars.
There is no way that Brexiters are going to get away with continuing to blame "the rest of Europe" fit things go tits up, it will be a shambles entirely of their own making.
actually I suspect they will
Remoaners underestimating loathing for EU - where have we seen that before?
More important at this stage to keep toxifying the brand of and dismantling the psychology of Brexit. It was portrayed as a super Brand. Something you could buy that would instantly make a younger and fitter and sexier. It was portrayed a fresh start. A national diet or detox or new Gym membership. Every day that passes, every complication, every compromise, every abandoned pledge helps toxify the Brexit Brand. We don't even have to make Brexit very unpopular. Just level the Killing Field. We can turn Brexit into just another government policy carried out by just more politicans. Pluses and minuses but just more politics. We need to aim for the late January effect where everyone is sick of the diet, no one has been paid since Christmas and the gym membership is unused. Then we can start of stage 2 which is making Brexit May's Poll Tax. But we need Stage 1 first. There are no short cuts. Dig in chaps this is only just starting.
Or you could make the positive case for EU membership?
(Snip)
removing lots of good stuff for brevity's sake
This blindness to fact by some Europhobes was the most annoying thing about the referendum to me: the fact that their religion could not stand *any* contention that there might be *any* good in the EU, whatever the evidence.
Having said that, the EU didn't even try to make a positive case. They were complacent, and no-one has accepted responsibility for that yet. Their failure to even contemplate that people in countries around the EU do not share their vision for Europe is intensely damaging to their project.
Very measured, very sane. Long may you continue your PB rambling.
If the EU want to play hardball, fine, we'll just reduce security co-operation. They want to talk big? Lets see them deal with that, the bastards. Your EU employed officials can be ignored, the national governments of the large EU nations where the power is really held will understand the meaning.
As for that bunch at Westminster who don't understand what referendums are about, good luck to Labour in particular, as the areas in the North of England who voted for no, by some margin in many cases, react to attempts to turn that vote on its head.
LOL, will we remove our handful of bathtubs and couple of platoons of infantry.
I think we offer a little more than that being the only EU member of the Five Eyes.
Scotland doesn't though, its got a pitiful capability on intelligence security. Literally s**t, zero contribution, zero capability, its nearly all provided by other parts of the UK for them.
Don't need it. They just kick the suicide bombers till they surrender.
If the EU want to play hardball, fine, we'll just reduce security co-operation. They want to talk big? Lets see them deal with that, the bastards. Your EU employed officials can be ignored, the national governments of the large EU nations where the power is really held will understand the meaning.
As for that bunch at Westminster who don't understand what referendums are about, good luck to Labour in particular, as the areas in the North of England who voted for no, by some margin in many cases, react to attempts to turn that vote on its head.
LOL, will we remove our handful of bathtubs and couple of platoons of infantry.
I think we offer a little more than that being the only EU member of the Five Eyes.
Scotland doesn't though, its got a pitiful capability on intelligence security. Literally s**t, zero contribution, zero capability, its nearly all provided by other parts of the UK for them.
Away you big jessie fanny, I bet you pulled girls pigtails as a boy. Delusions of grandeur , intelligence would be a stranger to you. A pompous whining windbag playing with your toy soldiers and feeling important.
If the EU want to play hardball, fine, we'll just reduce security co-operation. They want to talk big? Lets see them deal with that, the bastards. Your EU employed officials can be ignored, the national governments of the large EU nations where the power is really held will understand the meaning.
As for that bunch at Westminster who don't understand what referendums are about, good luck to Labour in particular, as the areas in the North of England who voted for no, by some margin in many cases, react to attempts to turn that vote on its head.
I love your angle ;-)
The UK has cards to play on the fact London provides the eurozone with much of its liquidity, it can withhold or make budget payments into the EU, provide military cooperation, or not, and our security services which are pack more punch than those of Germany and France combined, and some.
In exchange, the UK needs something extra on migration. So something the EU will give.
I'm a Remainer, but if negotiations don't bring up :
I'd be unimpressed. You could argue that EU is already a breach of the treaty! Certainly they will need to get all the parties to agree to a United States of Europe...
If the EU want to play hardball, fine, we'll just reduce security co-operation. They want to talk big? Lets see them deal with that, the bastards. Your EU employed officials can be ignored, the national governments of the large EU nations where the power is really held will understand the meaning.
As for that bunch at Westminster who don't understand what referendums are about, good luck to Labour in particular, as the areas in the North of England who voted for no, by some margin in many cases, react to attempts to turn that vote on its head.
LOL, will we remove our handful of bathtubs and couple of platoons of infantry.
I think we offer a little more than that being the only EU member of the Five Eyes.
Scotland doesn't though, its got a pitiful capability on intelligence security. Literally s**t, zero contribution, zero capability, its nearly all provided by other parts of the UK for them.
Hardly surprising as it's not a devolved competence.
FWIW...I was having lunch today, and I came to the real conclusion that May is just game playing...the whole thing. Hammond too. It's a classy double act..in reality they are thick as thieves. This is all just one charade..May threw some red meat with the grammar schools that will not happen, and now she is using the prospect of hard Brexit, and all that entails to ball bust a few folk, and make it look like she's trying.
I've seen the film...at the end all is well. We'll stay in the single market and May will get some extra concessions on immigration, but we have to go through the dramas first.
What I certainly agree is true is that everyone is on maneuvers at the moment - The EU, the Government, the CBI, the banks etc.
Interpreting every rumour as Trafalgar or the Retreat From Kabul is ludicrous. The real value at the moment is trying to see what has actually happened, and why.
For example, the Hinkley Point. One thing that no-one has mentioned was the EDF/French government position on it. I would not be surprised if the delay on the deal was at least partly based on calculating whether the French wanted the plan to go ahead (and which group of the French wanted what), and what that would be worth in diplomatic chips. There was quite a large group in EDF (and the French Government by extension) that didn't want the deal to go ahead - they thought it would be damaging to EDF.
Does anyone know much about the pro Hinkley point/EDF people on the French side of things, politically?
It will be very damaging for EDF if they can't get the damn thing working - to the point where the French government would have a somewhat devalued shareholding. That was always my assumption of the political objections to the project.
The interesting bit would be to see who in the French establishment has "won" on this one. That would be actual information.
Indeed. I always wondered how the deal between the British, French and Chinese came about, there will be some greased palms somewhere and as you say political winners from the deal.
Just back from an excellent curry lunch and catching up. Some interesting conversation this afternoon and a special thank you to Mssrs Bedfordshire and Jessop for their earlier comments on trains to the West Country.
Exeter St. Davids station is a mile outside that city for the same reason Cambridge station is about the same distance from Cambridge. The Victorian city fathers of both places didn't want anything to do with the nasty, smelly, modern world.
It's odd how railways have shaped towns. They created some: Swindon and Crewe being two examples: but they moulded others. Cambridge grew southwards to embrace the station. Derby grew eastwards to embrace the troika's station outside town (though in the latter case, there was a canal basin nearby and associated industries).
Incidentally, the decision of the Birmingham and Derby, the North Midland, and the Midland Counties railway to 'share' a station in Derby must have been one of the earliest examples of cooperation between companies. It is very much a shame it did not set a standard for later developments.
More important at this stage to keep toxifying the brand of and dismantling the psychology of Brexit. It was portrayed as a super Brand. Something you could buy that would instantly make a younger and fitter and sexier. It was portrayed a fresh start. A national diet or detox or new Gym membership. Every day that passes, every complication, every compromise, every abandoned pledge helps toxify the Brexit Brand. We don't even have to make Brexit very unpopular. Just level the Killing Field. We can turn Brexit into just another government policy carried out by just more politicans. Pluses and minuses but just more politics. We need to aim for the late January effect where everyone is sick of the diet, no one has been paid since Christmas and the gym membership is unused. Then we can start of stage 2 which is making Brexit May's Poll Tax. But we need Stage 1 first. There are no short cuts. Dig in chaps this is only just starting.
Or you could make the positive case for EU membership?
Ah, no, I see the problem with that now.
You won. We lost. You are the Master's now. You have a Brexit led government committed to delivering Brexit. Keeping as much of the eurosphere as possible for the UK is now an opposition campaign and needs to function as such. With the added advantage of the eurosphere being the Status Quo. We don't need to achieve anything just stop/limit your changes. Europhobia plated on opposition status very well for 43 years. But you won so the roles are reversed now. You'll get used to it eventually.
Agree with most of that, including that Remainers have a right to make the case for their preferred Brexit, but why repeat the tactics which failed to win the referendum?
If the EU want to play hardball, fine, we'll just reduce security co-operation. They want to talk big? Lets see them deal with that, the bastards. Your EU employed officials can be ignored, the national governments of the large EU nations where the power is really held will understand the meaning.
As for that bunch at Westminster who don't understand what referendums are about, good luck to Labour in particular, as the areas in the North of England who voted for no, by some margin in many cases, react to attempts to turn that vote on its head.
LOL, will we remove our handful of bathtubs and couple of platoons of infantry.
I think we offer a little more than that being the only EU member of the Five Eyes.
Scotland doesn't though, its got a pitiful capability on intelligence security. Literally s**t, zero contribution, zero capability, its nearly all provided by other parts of the UK for them.
Are you joking? It is absolutely all provided by the UK government; there is a general reservation of "defence", and a specific reservation under Head B of "national security and counter-terrorism". It would be unlawful for Scotland to have any "capability on intelligence security".
Indeed. I always wondered how the deal between the British, French and Chinese came about, there will be some greased palms somewhere and as you say political winners from the deal.
But then again, everyone out here is laughing at how the British can be *still* talking about expanding the bloody airport and not JFDI!
I also suspect construction costs are going to be slightly lower in the UAE...
Edit to add: the reactor design being built in the UAE is a very modern design. There's actually only one working example, Shin-Kiri 3, in Korea at the moment, and that has not been without its teething problems.
Unlikely as it is, if Hammond goes I can see Boris following. It would be the perfect excuse to extricate himself from a devastated government and the ensuing horror show. He can then return as the Tories' savour later on in the piece (if it isn't all too late by then, of course).
Remoaners talking about a devastated government are engaging in the most delusional of wishful thinking. There are no real obstacles to the current government that cannot be overcome - except the rest of Europe - who can be blamed if they play silly beggars.
I think some of the Remain hard core would rather see Corbyn in power, just so long as they got May out of office.
Says the man who spent the last few years supporting a party dedicated to removing Cameron from office.
Let me explain the initials UKIP for you...
Little to do with Cameron, almost everything to do with his Europhilia.
The idea that Cameron was some kind of foaming Europhile is farcical. ... Possibly, you have a terminal case.
If you had been here more than 5 minutes, you'd realise that I had been a huge cheerleader for my fellow BNC alumnus for a decade. I dedicated a decent proportion of 2015 helping to get him a majority.
I was on the fence and hoped to be persuaded by a decent deal. I wasn't. And on top of domestic balls ups - especially the 2016 Budget - demonstrated how out of touch Cameron and Osborne were with our people.
If I'm a headbanger, then so are the majority of the Tory supporting public. You know - the highest number in all current opinion polls. Overwhelmingly.
I'm calling you a headbanger because you keep calling Remainer Tories/Orange Bookers/Miliband type Labourites as headbangers and you describe David Cameron as a "Europhile".
I think the first claim is an attempt to delegitimise the centre of public opinion, and the second is as explained just farcical.
Headbangers continue to moan about one issue to the exclusion of all others. And they try to frustrate the government.
Remarkably, the new headbangers also want to frustrate the will of the people. Perhaps given their Europhilia we should call them Les Headbangers. Sounds like a perfect description of Soubry et al to me.
If the EU want to play hardball, fine, we'll just reduce security co-operation. They want to talk big? Lets see them deal with that, the bastards. Your EU employed officials can be ignored, the national governments of the large EU nations where the power is really held will understand the meaning.
As for that bunch at Westminster who don't understand what referendums are about, good luck to Labour in particular, as the areas in the North of England who voted for no, by some margin in many cases, react to attempts to turn that vote on its head.
LOL, will we remove our handful of bathtubs and couple of platoons of infantry.
I think we offer a little more than that being the only EU member of the Five Eyes.
Scotland doesn't though, its got a pitiful capability on intelligence security. Literally s**t, zero contribution, zero capability, its nearly all provided by other parts of the UK for them.
Away you big jessie fanny, I bet you pulled girls pigtails as a boy. Delusions of grandeur , intelligence would be a stranger to you. A pompous whining windbag playing with your toy soldiers and feeling important.
You are as easy to wind up as a stupid dog behind the gate. Its a joy.
If the EU want to play hardball, fine, we'll just reduce security co-operation. They want to talk big? Lets see them deal with that, the bastards. Your EU employed officials can be ignored, the national governments of the large EU nations where the power is really held will understand the meaning.
As for that bunch at Westminster who don't understand what referendums are about, good luck to Labour in particular, as the areas in the North of England who voted for no, by some margin in many cases, react to attempts to turn that vote on its head.
LOL, will we remove our handful of bathtubs and couple of platoons of infantry.
I think we offer a little more than that being the only EU member of the Five Eyes.
Scotland doesn't though, its got a pitiful capability on intelligence security. Literally s**t, zero contribution, zero capability, its nearly all provided by other parts of the UK for them.
Away you big jessie fanny, I bet you pulled girls pigtails as a boy. Delusions of grandeur , intelligence would be a stranger to you. A pompous whining windbag playing with your toy soldiers and feeling important.
You are as easy to wind up as a stupid dog behind the gate. Its a joy.
Off topic: after my visit to Rome (and, BTW, a big thank you to whoever suggested the Hotel Donna Camilla Savelli - I'm afraid I cannot remember your name but enjoyed my stay there in June and going back there this week), if anyone has any recommendations for Elba and/or Corsica - restaurants, hotels, sights - I'd be delighted to hear them. You can VM me.
Anyway, I must be off now. Hopefully not much longer left with the old proofreading [lucky it's this weekend, actually, the only one of the month with no F1].
Indeed. I always wondered how the deal between the British, French and Chinese came about, there will be some greased palms somewhere and as you say political winners from the deal.
But then again, everyone out here is laughing at how the British can be *still* talking about expanding the bloody airport and not JFDI!
I also suspect construction costs are going to be slightly lower in the UAE...
Edit to add: the reactor design being built in the UAE is a very modern design. There's actually only one working example, Shin-Kiri 3, in Korea at the moment, and that has not been without its teething problems.
The more sensible builders here are slowly coming to the realisation that throwing huge numbers of unskilled labour at a complicated project doesn't save any money, especially when they all have to be fed, watered, transported and accommodated!
The four reactors should come in around $25bn, for 4x14MW
One working reactor is a better starting point than nothing, but I'm sure there will be some issues. The construction here is being staggered and done in parallel with others in Korea to hopefully avoid too many of them.
The Conservative Parliamentary Party is a nest of snakes and social inadequates. Only the ruthlessness of Osborne allowed Cameron to rule in an undistracted way. The truth is that Osborne was the Willie of both the Coalition and the small majority government putting a lot of stick about to get things done.
May is not so much missing a Willie as an Osborne, a brilliant and vicious tactician who has the leaders back. Hammond is not that man. Not even close. In the same way that the Brown Government was a total shambles until he brought back Mandelson back to run it for him May needs Osborne back in the fold. Gratuitously making an enemy of him was childish and stupid.
I have various personal maxims. One of them is that everyone can be divided into those who are problem solvers and those who are the problems. It is always more fun to be the problem than to be a problem solver. Theresa May is finding that out now.
I have various personal maxims. One of them is that everyone can be divided into those who are problem solvers and those who are the problems. It is always more fun to be the problem than to be a problem solver. Theresa May is finding that out now.
Yes - a division that your posts illustrate every day.
Indeed. I always wondered how the deal between the British, French and Chinese came about, there will be some greased palms somewhere and as you say political winners from the deal.
But then again, everyone out here is laughing at how the British can be *still* talking about expanding the bloody airport and not JFDI!
I also suspect construction costs are going to be slightly lower in the UAE...
Edit to add: the reactor design being built in the UAE is a very modern design. There's actually only one working example, Shin-Kiri 3, in Korea at the moment, and that has not been without its teething problems.
The more sensible builders here are slowly coming to the realisation that throwing huge numbers of unskilled labour at a complicated project doesn't save any money, especially when they all have to be fed, watered, transported and accommodated!
The four reactors should come in around $25bn, for 4x14MW
One working reactor is a better starting point than nothing, but I'm sure there will be some issues. The construction here is being staggered and done in parallel with others in Korea to hopefully avoid too many of them.
Also, IIRC KEPCO get caught falsifying a decade's worth of safety records. Which would have caused people to have had kittens in the UK!
Mr. Charles, if someone saw that and then thought it didn't need passing on they're bloody stupid.
If it's true.
Unless Mr Charles is part of a very small circle close to no. 10 (in which case I wonder whether he would have posted the rumour at all) I would have thought such a suggestion would have made it onto order-order or somewhere similar, by now (if true)(edit/and quite possibly if not)?
I am not, but the people I was staying with are very well connected. but I can't vouch for whether it is true or not.
I have various personal maxims. One of them is that everyone can be divided into those who are problem solvers and those who are the problems. It is always more fun to be the problem than to be a problem solver. Theresa May is finding that out now.
There's surely a relevant third type: the ignorer of problems. Everything'll be okay. We'll muddle through. It'll be better tomorrow.
The Conservative Parliamentary Party is a nest of snakes and social inadequates. Only the ruthlessness of Osborne allowed Cameron to rule in an undistracted way. The truth is that Osborne was the Willie of both the Coalition and the small majority government putting a lot of stick about to get things done.
May is not so much missing a Willie as an Osborne, a brilliant and vicious tactician who has the leaders back. Hammond is not that man. Not even close. In the same way that the Brown Government was a total shambles until he brought back Mandelson back to run it for him May needs Osborne back in the fold. Gratuitously making an enemy of him was childish and stupid.
Given that Theresa May arrived at No. 10 to find decisions about nuclear power and airport expansion in her in-tray, I don't buy that Osborne was making sure things got done!
Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best - Cameron and Osborne were both toffee-nosed amateurs with no real vision, playing at politics because it looked like a laugh.
(snipped) Sadly, some Europhobes on here argued against the point, denying that the EU had anything to do with those companies' success, despite all the evidence otherwise. I daresay some of them will be doing so now.
This blindness to fact by some Europhobes was the most annoying thing about the referendum to me: the fact that their religion could not stand *any* contention that there might be *any* good in the EU, whatever the evidence.
Having said that, the EU didn't even try to make a positive case. They were complacent, and no-one has accepted responsibility for that yet. Their failure to even contemplate that people in countries around the EU do not share their vision for Europe is intensely damaging to their project.
Because the issues were so complex and so obscure, I eventually went with my gut feeling & voted leave.
IMHO, it is entirely possible that ardent Remain champions will succeed in overturning the result of the Referendum.
What interests me is: what then? Is it expected that everything will return to the previous normal? Both in the UK and for the EU?
The EU people will certainly be encouraged to press ahead with their plans by the UK's about-turn. My guess is that no more referendums will ever be offered - certainly not in countries where they are not legal necessities.
So any discontent will simply be disregarded, as it has been in the UK.
I have various personal maxims. One of them is that everyone can be divided into those who are problem solvers and those who are the problems. It is always more fun to be the problem than to be a problem solver. Theresa May is finding that out now.
There's surely a relevant third type: the ignorer of problems. Everything'll be okay. We'll muddle through. It'll be better tomorrow.
How? They're asked.
(silence)
You know what: the third type are by far the happiest.
Indeed. I always wondered how the deal between the British, French and Chinese came about, there will be some greased palms somewhere and as you say political winners from the deal.
But then again, everyone out here is laughing at how the British can be *still* talking about expanding the bloody airport and not JFDI!
I also suspect construction costs are going to be slightly lower in the UAE...
Edit to add: the reactor design being built in the UAE is a very modern design. There's actually only one working example, Shin-Kiri 3, in Korea at the moment, and that has not been without its teething problems.
The more sensible builders here are slowly coming to the realisation that throwing huge numbers of unskilled labour at a complicated project doesn't save any money, especially when they all have to be fed, watered, transported and accommodated!
The four reactors should come in around $25bn, for 4x14MW
One working reactor is a better starting point than nothing, but I'm sure there will be some issues. The construction here is being staggered and done in parallel with others in Korea to hopefully avoid too many of them.
Also, IIRC KEPCO get caught falsifying a decade's worth of safety records. Which would have caused people to have had kittens in the UK!
(snipped) Sadly, some Europhobes on here argued against the point, denying that the EU had anything to do with those companies' success, despite all the evidence otherwise. I daresay some of them will be doing so now.
This blindness to fact by some Europhobes was the most annoying thing about the referendum to me: the fact that their religion could not stand *any* contention that there might be *any* good in the EU, whatever the evidence.
Having said that, the EU didn't even try to make a positive case. They were complacent, and no-one has accepted responsibility for that yet. Their failure to even contemplate that people in countries around the EU do not share their vision for Europe is intensely damaging to their project.
Because the issues were so complex and so obscure, I eventually went with my gut feeling & voted leave.
IMHO, it is entirely possible that ardent Remain champions will succeed in overturning the result of the Referendum.
What interests me is: what then? Is it expected that everything will return to the previous normal? Both in the UK and for the EU?
The EU people will certainly be encouraged to press ahead with their plans by the UK's about-turn. My guess is that no more referendums will ever be offered - certainly not in countries where they are not legal necessities.
So any discontent will simply be disregarded, as it has been in the UK.
And what then?
(Good evening, everybody)
The Conservatives tear themselves apart and the LibDems sweep to power?
May is not so much missing a Willie as an Osborne, a brilliant and vicious tactician who has the leaders back. Hammond is not that man. Not even close. In the same way that the Brown Government was a total shambles until he brought back Mandelson back to run it for him May needs Osborne back in the fold. Gratuitously making an enemy of him was childish and stupid.
Would the minor detail of him despising everything she stood for and wanted to do not have been a slight hinderance ?
I think big nuclear has had its day. HPC will be one last ignominious hurrah for it but the world will have moved on to battery backed renewable power by then and a much more shock resistant, decentralised grid. Two years ago I was 100% against renewable power on the basis of expense, subsidies and intermittency, all three problems have been solved. HPC is the wrong project but the PM had clearly been bounced into it by the French and Chinese.
I have various personal maxims. One of them is that everyone can be divided into those who are problem solvers and those who are the problems. It is always more fun to be the problem than to be a problem solver. Theresa May is finding that out now.
There's surely a relevant third type: the ignorer of problems. Everything'll be okay. We'll muddle through. It'll be better tomorrow.
May is not so much missing a Willie as an Osborne, a brilliant and vicious tactician who has the leaders back. Hammond is not that man. Not even close. In the same way that the Brown Government was a total shambles until he brought back Mandelson back to run it for him May needs Osborne back in the fold. Gratuitously making an enemy of him was childish and stupid.
Would the minor detail of him despising everything she stood for and wanted to do not have been a slight hinderance ?
He still wants the Conservatives to win power though, which is the ultimate aim for any political party. It doesn't feel like TMay has the instincts to make that happen.
Comments
I was on the fence and hoped to be persuaded by a decent deal. I wasn't. And on top of domestic balls ups - especially the 2016 Budget - demonstrated how out of touch Cameron and Osborne were with our people.
If I'm a headbanger, then so are the majority of the Tory supporting public. You know - the highest number in all current opinion polls. Overwhelmingly.
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-10-13/pennsylvania-poll?utm_content=politics&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&cmpid==socialflow-twitter-politics
Handwave
Or would you have him argue against his beliefs?
But, lack of conviction in Brexit does not make you a "Europhile". To claim that is just the political equivalent of "locker room talk".
I am going to go with "not".
Cameron didn't trigger article 50. Osborne, Carney and co calmed down the markets. Cameron Quit.
The 'phoney peace' began. The world didn't end. The daily express propaganda machine told us the economy was booming. etc etc
Unfortuanately for you guys, the terms of the debate changed.
Ah, no, I see the problem with that now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy2dt5TIzuk
with Nicola Vinegar
I think the first claim is an attempt to delegitimise the centre of public opinion, and the second is as explained just farcical.
I wonder if someone might get the idea that especially in the run up to an election, an impartial news channel - run along the same sort of editorial lines as the UK operates - might be a massive gap in the market for those who wish to be informed, rather than told (loudly) what to think?
From the top of my head, four organisations could do it, free of political ads:
PBS
HBO
Netflix
Amazon.
Four years from now the media market in the US will be very different from what it is now, with the latter two on my list much more dominant than they are in 2016. It will be interesting to see if anyone takes up my idea.
Remarkably, the new headbangers also want to frustrate the will of the people. Perhaps given their Europhilia we should call them Les Headbangers. Sounds like a perfect description of Soubry et al to me.
Apparently Boris emailed Cameron *midway through* the Brexit campaign to explore defecting. Someone in Cameron's office decided that he didn't need to see that email so didn't pass it on...
As for that bunch at Westminster who don't understand what referendums are about, good luck to Labour in particular, as the areas in the North of England who voted for no, by some margin in many cases, react to attempts to turn that vote on its head.
Suppose there is no "being pushed toward a softer BrExit", maybe there is only "IN", or there is "WTO". Maybe we are dreaming about Soft BrExit and it doesn't exist.
A full four-freedoms IN is a guaranteed election loss, with no possibility of shifting the blame onto anyone else, and quite likely 25% for the UKIPs even if they are led by Mr Punch.
So she has a choice of a guaranteed election lose, or a maybe election loss if it goes badly and she doesn't manage to blame someone else.
No choice at all.
If it's true.
Its the nuclear weapon of Brexit. Nice to know we have it, but hope we never use it.
http://www.ictsd.org/opinion/nothing-simple-about-uk-regaining-wto-status-post-brexit
Dear me.
Unless May severely curtails his freedom of action, I suspect we will find out more then.
Surely he'd have picked up the phone to speak to the PM's Diary Secretary directly, if he had wanted a serious discussion about it?
There are going to be several good books written about the last 18 months in British politics. And some more written about the same period in American politics.
I can well understand why the incoming PM didn't want any of the outgoing PMs staff around for a minute longer than necessary.
I think theyre struggling with the fact they can be ignored.
Interpreting every rumour as Trafalgar or the Retreat From Kabul is ludicrous. The real value at the moment is trying to see what has actually happened, and why.
For example, the Hinkley Point. One thing that no-one has mentioned was the EDF/French government position on it. I would not be surprised if the delay on the deal was at least partly based on calculating whether the French wanted the plan to go ahead (and which group of the French wanted what), and what that would be worth in diplomatic chips. There was quite a large group in EDF (and the French Government by extension) that didn't want the deal to go ahead - they thought it would be damaging to EDF.
Does anyone know much about the pro Hinkley point/EDF people on the French side of things, politically?
Also, if you were thinking doing something like this, you would want it totally off the record i.e not emailing via official channels.
The UK has cards to play on the fact London provides the eurozone with much of its liquidity, it can withhold or make budget payments into the EU, provide military cooperation, or not, and our security services which are pack more punch than those of Germany and France combined, and some.
In exchange, the UK needs something extra on migration. So something the EU will give.
Newt Gingrich: 20 Media Executives Are Launching A "Coup D'Etat" Against Millions Of Trump Voters
Before the referendum I tried to use the example of mobile phones, where the EU massively helped European companies gain a world footing in the 1980s and 1990s: examples being Vodafone and Nokia, along with many smaller companies. It was relatively minor and boring things (like reserving frequencies and making GSM a mandatory standard). Yet these small enabling changes, done Europe-wide, had a massive effect. And in a quite unusual turn of events, it was all agreed in much less than a year.
These EU rules and MOUs meant that 'our' standard, GSM could be sold around the world with the full force of Europe behind it, whereas the US lost out due to the battle between competing standards. It was a perfect example where cooperation between EU scientists, organisations, and companies, was embraced into EU law to the advantage of everyone. The reservation of frequencies was a particularly vital move.
And as part of the EU, our scientists, organisations, and companies had our say. The UK government were particularly important in pushing it forwards.
Sadly, some Europhobes on here argued against the point, denying that the EU had anything to do with those companies' success, despite all the evidence otherwise. I daresay some of them will be doing so now.
This blindness to fact by some Europhobes was the most annoying thing about the referendum to me: the fact that their religion could not stand *any* contention that there might be *any* good in the EU, whatever the evidence.
Having said that, the EU didn't even try to make a positive case. They were complacent, and no-one has accepted responsibility for that yet. Their failure to even contemplate that people in countries around the EU do not share their vision for Europe is intensely damaging to their project.
Exeter St. Davids station is a mile outside that city for the same reason Cambridge station is about the same distance from Cambridge. The Victorian city fathers of both places didn't want anything to do with the nasty, smelly, modern world.
Long may you continue your PB rambling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_State_Treaty
I'd be unimpressed. You could argue that EU is already a breach of the treaty! Certainly they will need to get all the parties to agree to a United States of Europe...
I also can't fathom why they didn't replicate what's been built out here in the sandpit, using proven Korean technology to build a larger station for considerably less money.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barakah_nuclear_power_plant
But then again, everyone out here is laughing at how the British can be *still* talking about expanding the bloody airport and not JFDI!
Incidentally, the decision of the Birmingham and Derby, the North Midland, and the Midland Counties railway to 'share' a station in Derby must have been one of the earliest examples of cooperation between companies. It is very much a shame it did not set a standard for later developments.
Historically, the term refers to Britain as a whole and is ultimately based on the Indo-European root for "white".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba
Edit to add: the reactor design being built in the UAE is a very modern design. There's actually only one working example, Shin-Kiri 3, in Korea at the moment, and that has not been without its teething problems.
Being in France has never stopped you posting in the past, has it?
The four reactors should come in around $25bn, for 4x14MW
One working reactor is a better starting point than nothing, but I'm sure there will be some issues. The construction here is being staggered and done in parallel with others in Korea to hopefully avoid too many of them.
May is not so much missing a Willie as an Osborne, a brilliant and vicious tactician who has the leaders back. Hammond is not that man. Not even close. In the same way that the Brown Government was a total shambles until he brought back Mandelson back to run it for him May needs Osborne back in the fold. Gratuitously making an enemy of him was childish and stupid.
How? They're asked.
(silence)
Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best - Cameron and Osborne were both toffee-nosed amateurs with no real vision, playing at politics because it looked like a laugh.
IMHO, it is entirely possible that ardent Remain champions will succeed in overturning the result of the Referendum.
What interests me is: what then? Is it expected that everything will return to the previous normal? Both in the UK and for the EU?
The EU people will certainly be encouraged to press ahead with their plans by the UK's about-turn. My guess is that no more referendums will ever be offered - certainly not in countries where they are not legal necessities.
So any discontent will simply be disregarded, as it has been in the UK.
And what then?
(Good evening, everybody)
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NN-Recabling_delays_Shin_Kori_start_ups-1810135.html
This world, it must be split into two;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGErC6QQdoc