It's still a daft policy. Control the borders and you don't need to micromanage and shame firms internally.
Rudd was completely wrong-footed when she was asked how many 'foreigners' worked for the home office and she didn;t know.
As the debate with Boris proved, the size of this person's gob far outweighs that of her talent.
I am still suspicious that all this nonsense about shaming firms is because they are planning to give a lot of ground of FoM and hence are going to have no legal way to reduce immigration except browbeating.
I am absolutely shocked by Steven Woolfe's reported injury and so hope that he recovers fully.
However surely it is the end of UKIP as a political force now that we are leaving the EU and Theresa May is following their message on control and immigration.
And on the white working class. Her approach is audacious politically if not sound (imo) economically.
If May's intent matches her rhetoric (and we don't get a badly regarded fudged Brexit), there seems little point in a WWC UKIP. All there would seem to be a point in would be an ultra dry small state version of UKIPism, but it wouldn't really have a support base, and such MPs as might be attracted to it are better off in the Tories.
Looks like there could be serious legal things happening with this UKIP story, so might be worth being careful with what we post.
From the Press Association, quoting a reputable source (at least in this context). How the hell do you hold a civilised contest against that backdrop, even if Woolfe's condition turns out to be better than reported. God help them if it's worse.
The same policy suggested by Ed Miliband in 2012, and already used in America, and so on and so forth.
It's the hysterical liberal Remainers who are damaging the UK brand, not the Tories.
It's still a daft policy. Control the borders and you don't need to micromanage and shame firms internally.
I probably agree. It's just this shrill liberal wankfest that irritates, even angers me. They haven't got a clue how to bring down migration, and satisfy the voters. Maybe they intend to ignore voters. Ignore elections? Wait for the voters to finally snap and elect proper Fascists? I dunno.
All they wanna do is jump and down on Twitter and scream like Mr Meeks. Even if they scream lies.
Same with the *Le Pen endorsed TMay* meme. Completely untrue. But they all believe it, Sturgeon repeated it in Holyrood. Bunch of dribbling kids.
Anyone who thinks Theresa May is running a NSDAP-type government is a loon.
I am absolutely shocked by Steven Woolfe's reported injury and so hope that he recovers fully.
However surely it is the end of UKIP as a political force now that we are leaving the EU and Theresa May is following their message on control and immigration.
And on the white working class. Her approach is audacious politically if not sound (imo) economically.
If May's intent matches her rhetoric (and we don't get a badly regarded fudged Brexit), there seems little point in a WWC UKIP. All there would seem to be a point in would be an ultra dry small state version of UKIPism, but it wouldn't really have a support base, and such MPs as might be attracted to it are better off in the Tories.
Looks like there could be serious legal things happening with this UKIP story, so might be worth being careful with what we post.
From the Press Association, quoting a reputable source (at least in this context). How the hell do you hold a civilised contest against that backdrop, even if Woolfe's condition turns out to be better than reported. God help them if it's worse.
''I am still suspicious that all this nonsense about shaming firms is because they are planning to give a lot of ground of FoM and hence are going to have no legal way to reduce immigration except browbeating. ''
Maybe, but given her rhetoric, I think its going to be difficult politically for May to opt for soft Brexit now.
I probably agree. It's just this shrill liberal wankfest that irritates, even angers me. They haven't got a clue how to bring down migration, and satisfy the voters. Maybe they intend to ignore voters. Ignore elections? Wait for the voters to finally snap and elect proper Fascists? I dunno.
Of course they want to ignore the voters, that is what all these idiotic marches through London for a second referendum was about. The metropolitan upper middle class feel they are morally and intellectually superior to the riff-raff that dared to come out of their council estates for the first time in years and vote to leave.
They went on shrilly in here and in other places yesterday about putting yellow stars of foreign workers, but they would be more than happy to put yellow stars on council estate dwellers to tell the polling booths to only count them as half a vote.
Is the same disgraceful approach as "you voted for BrExit, you pay for it/own it", which is like saying "you voted for Labour and they won so you can pay all the taxes". For these people there is no such thing as society just their over active self-regard.
@rachel_hump: UKIP MEP Jonathan Arnott tells @ShelaghFogarty@LBC the meeting where the altercation took place "was about the future of the party"
...and that future is "fucked"
I disagree. If this had been in Westminster, and Woolfe was Farage, or Carswell, or someone remotely known, yes, for sure.
But no one knows Woolfe, and it happened in Belgium. It will be of no interest to most. UKIP will probably survive.
I just wonder whether Farage himself will pull the plug.
Let's face it, UKIP is basically the Farage Party. If he decides it's served its purpose (which is has) and all these odd balls UKIP attracts aren't worth the trouble. he might decide the party's over... Literally!
It's still a daft policy. Control the borders and you don't need to micromanage and shame firms internally.
Rudd was completely wrong-footed when she was asked how many 'foreigners' worked for the home office and she didn;t know.
As the debate with Boris proved, the size of this person's gob far outweighs that of her talent.
I am still suspicious that all this nonsense about shaming firms is because they are planning to give a lot of ground of FoM and hence are going to have no legal way to reduce immigration except browbeating.
I think this might apply to Northern Ireland.
If there is an open border between NI and the Republic, then the way to control immigration is to have a hard border between NI and mainland Britain, and make it very difficult for foreign folk (including Irish Irish) to get work, accommodation, any public services without the proper paperwork in NI.
Not sure how the customs thing will work in NI. If it is an open border with the Republic, then NI will require special status within the EU with a customs border with mainland Britain. A step towards a united Ireland. And it looks like it has the support of the DUP.
Good Lord. When I first heard about Wolfe's collapse I made a joke about another Kipper trying to kill him. Then.... Presumably their leadership election will now have to be postponed into the new year with hopefully a full but lengthy recovery for Wolfe and a trial for the attacker.
@JamesCrisp6: MEP followed Woolfe outside EU Parl room in Stras and punched him outside chamber. Woolfe apparently collapsed in front of ITV cameras
That does alter it somewhat. They've got it on TV?? Gruesome. Then it may destroy the party. Horrific.
More likely it will taint the entire upper echelon of the party and open up the leadership contest to "clean skins". The Ukip vote won't evaporate over this.
Still a stupid idea, but it does show out of touch the media is with the feeling of the UK population on immigration issues. Curbing immigration / delinerating between UK born & immigrants is reported as racist in the media, but UK public clearly don't see it that way.
That poll is quite extraordinary and shows up very starkly the disconnect between the 'chatterers' and the general public across all the parties and almost every age range. I think the presentation by Rudd was very poor but she and May are clearly on the mon ey with the public on this one.
I can't believe they didn't even think for a second, either of them, about what this does to the party - the country even. How it proves all the sneering correct. It couldn't have been brought off better by paid trolls. I wish Woolfe a speedy and full recovery of course, but I'm ashamed of both of them.
Hmm this ain't smart in my view. Not with the GBP on this one.
a) We are going to need immigration (just in a more controlled way please, more engineers less 18yr old dishwashers so to speak).
b) It's way too open to misinterpretation. A translation agency in Kensington is probably going to have a huge number of foreigners compared to a metal basher in a side street in rural Cornwall, that's not a "bad" thing per se, but it might be made to look like it. Individual company numbers and make up, aren't really relevant to the overall picture which is the source of the legitimate debate.
There's been no sign of any meaningful decline in the polls for UKIP post Referendum. If they disband their votes will have to go somewhere.
After that YG poll today a lot of them will be heading back to the Tories. The only other party to have a sensible leadership election were the LDs - except they elected Tim Farron
That poll is quite extraordinary and shows up very starkly the disconnect between the 'chatterers' and the general public across all the parties and almost every age range. I think the presentation by Rudd was very poor but she and May are clearly on the mon ey with the public on this one.
Possibly there was some private polling before they wrote the speeches ?
That poll is quite extraordinary and shows up very starkly the disconnect between the 'chatterers' and the general public across all the parties and almost every age range. I think the presentation by Rudd was very poor but she and May are clearly on the mon ey with the public on this one.
Hmm this ain't smart in my view. Not with the GBP on this one.
a) We are going to need immigration (just in a more controlled way please, more engineers less 18yr old dishwashers so to speak).
b) It's way too open to misinterpretation. A translation agency in Kensington is probably going to have a huge number of foreigners compared to a metal basher in a side street in rural Cornwall, that's not a "bad" thing per se, but it might be made to look like it. Individual company numbers and make up, aren't really relevant to the overall picture which is the source of the legitimate debate.
c) Doesn't feel right at all - so probably isn't.
A more sensible way to look at it might be to assess how many position have to be filled from abroad after failing to be filled when advertised in the UK.
Rather than silly name & shame registers, the government would be far better doing some serious thinking about what jobs we need immigrants for & which we don't, and then not listening to all the media nonsense about curry chefs.
There's been no sign of any meaningful decline in the polls for UKIP post Referendum. If they disband their votes will have to go somewhere.
I suspect that we're headed for a softer Brexit than TMay has been suggesting. See the "transitional deal" mentioned in the FT yesterday. That's how the government will square the circle: we're getting a Hard Brexit *eventually*, but it will take time, etc etc
This means there will be a continued role for UKIP, the Hard Brexiteers. Lib Dems are pro-Europe, Labour are confused and irrelevant. Vote UKIP for Hard Brexit in 2020.
Yes, I agree. The market for UKIP is still there so they'll maintain the product of UKIP. Clearly if People dies or is disabled there is a branding issue but parties have survived worse.
Hmm this ain't smart in my view. Not with the GBP on this one.
b) It's way too open to misinterpretation. A translation agency in Kensington is probably going to have a huge number of foreigners compared to a metal basher in a side street in rural Cornwall, that's not a "bad" thing per se, but it might be made to look like it. Individual company numbers and make up, aren't really relevant to the overall picture which is the source of the legitimate debate.
The problem is that the public doesn't trust the 'experts' when they say that immigration is needed, that it improves the economy and that it isn't displacing UK employees.
If there was some hard data that allowed people to be better educated then I think some of the annoyance over immigration would end.
Jesus. Just accidentally saw the photo on Twitter. Poleaxed.
That's surely a murder charge, if the poor man doesn't recover.
As a member of the military (if it is what is alleged, which is by no means clear), this man should have known he could use lethal force even if unarmed.
That poll is quite extraordinary and shows up very starkly the disconnect between the 'chatterers' and the general public across all the parties and almost every age range. I think the presentation by Rudd was very poor but she and May are clearly on the mon ey with the public on this one.
Their analysis is; their solution isn't.
So the US is wrong to publish the job title, company, location and nationality of every foreigner with a green card?
There's been no sign of any meaningful decline in the polls for UKIP post Referendum. If they disband their votes will have to go somewhere.
I suspect that we're headed for a softer Brexit than TMay has been suggesting. See the "transitional deal" mentioned in the FT yesterday. That's how the government will square the circle: we're getting a Hard Brexit *eventually*, but it will take time, etc etc
This means there will be a continued role for UKIP, the Hard Brexiteers. Lib Dems are pro-Europe, Labour are confused and irrelevant. Vote UKIP for Hard Brexit in 2020.
Clearly if People dies or is disabled there is a branding issue but parties have survived worse.
That poll is quite extraordinary and shows up very starkly the disconnect between the 'chatterers' and the general public across all the parties and almost every age range. I think the presentation by Rudd was very poor but she and May are clearly on the mon ey with the public on this one.
Possibly there was some private polling before they wrote the speeches ?
Why all the mystery? The British public has been screaming out for less immigration for years. The Cons promised it and failed. They are promising it again.
Less immigration means concrete measures to curb some of the access we have taken for granted. For EU citizens (who are most noticeable I'm sure to those who want to cut their number).
The public think that Rudd's speech is a breath of fresh air. All is well in the world. They voted for this and got it.
Of course, you or I and others on here could discuss some kind of more nuanced version of the above but it would just be more of the intelligentsia having a wankfest.
This is not even primarily about Ukip, it is about this country's standing in the eyes of the world generally and the EU nations specifically. Expect waves of derision and "thank God they are on their way out" because foreigners won't appreciate that Ukip are nutters, they will think they are the political wing of the British people because they "own" Brexit. Thanks, ukip.
That poll is quite extraordinary and shows up very starkly the disconnect between the 'chatterers' and the general public across all the parties and almost every age range. I think the presentation by Rudd was very poor but she and May are clearly on the mon ey with the public on this one.
Their analysis is; their solution isn't.
So the US is wrong to publish the job title, company, location and nationality of every foreigner with a green card?
As a solution, it's as almost as tokenistic as driving a van around telling immigrants to go home, and far more costly and disruptive.
Jesus. Just accidentally saw the photo on Twitter. Poleaxed.
That's surely a murder charge, if the poor man doesn't recover.
As a member of the military (if it is what is alleged, which is by no means clear), this man should have known he could use lethal force even if unarmed.
The fact that Woolfe has gone down, briefcase in hand could mean more than one thing. 1) He was attacked with a single blow, possibly without warning and given no chance to defend himself or 2) A seemingly minor altercation has become more serious after the event due to progressing brain injury, and he has collapsed away from the initial incident
Let's just hope he suffers no long term injury from this.
This is not even primarily about Ukip, it is about this country's standing in the eyes of the world generally and the EU nations specifically. Expect waves of derision and "thank God they are on their way out" because foreigners won't appreciate that Ukip are nutters, they will think they are the political wing of the British people because they "own" Brexit. Thanks, ukip.
The most comparable equivalent I can think of is the way we laugh at the Georgian or Ukrainian parliaments fighting.
This is not even primarily about Ukip, it is about this country's standing in the eyes of the world generally and the EU nations specifically. Expect waves of derision and "thank God they are on their way out" because foreigners won't appreciate that Ukip are nutters, they will think they are the political wing of the British people because they "own" Brexit. Thanks, ukip.
Or they will until Wilders and Le Pen top the poll in the Netherlands and France next year
This is not even primarily about Ukip, it is about this country's standing in the eyes of the world generally and the EU nations specifically. Expect waves of derision and "thank God they are on their way out" because foreigners won't appreciate that Ukip are nutters, they will think they are the political wing of the British people because they "own" Brexit. Thanks, ukip.
Jesus. Just accidentally saw the photo on Twitter. Poleaxed.
That's surely a murder charge, if the poor man doesn't recover.
As a member of the military (if it is what is alleged, which is by no means clear), this man should have known he could use lethal force even if unarmed.
Members of the military are usually only able to use lethal force if they have a weapon in their hand.
As a Royal Marine commando (looking at that ludicrous photo still of him with his green beret on), he might have got slightly more unarmed combat training.
This is not even primarily about Ukip, it is about this country's standing in the eyes of the world generally and the EU nations specifically. Expect waves of derision and "thank God they are on their way out" because foreigners won't appreciate that Ukip are nutters, they will think they are the political wing of the British people because they "own" Brexit. Thanks, ukip.
I think that's a very interest point we should explore further another time.
This is not even primarily about Ukip, it is about this country's standing in the eyes of the world generally and the EU nations specifically. Expect waves of derision and "thank God they are on their way out" because foreigners won't appreciate that Ukip are nutters, they will think they are the political wing of the British people because they "own" Brexit. Thanks, ukip.
Quite. We've had Jo Cox murdered a few months ago and now this. As a country we look like we are in a bad place.
Hmm this ain't smart in my view. Not with the GBP on this one.
a) We are going to need immigration (just in a more controlled way please, more engineers less 18yr old dishwashers so to speak).
b) It's way too open to misinterpretation. A translation agency in Kensington is probably going to have a huge number of foreigners compared to a metal basher in a side street in rural Cornwall, that's not a "bad" thing per se, but it might be made to look like it. Individual company numbers and make up, aren't really relevant to the overall picture which is the source of the legitimate debate.
c) Doesn't feel right at all - so probably isn't.
A more sensible way to look at it might be to assess how many position have to be filled from abroad after failing to be filled when advertised in the UK.
It was said after the referendum that the liberal left discovered they had much more in common with the libertarian right than the socially conservative economically leftwing WWC. And so it has been proved. 60% of the public want government snoopers listing how many 'foreigners' work in private companies. And the increasingly ludicrous SeanT expects us to shut up and suck it up?
News for you: it ain't happening. Tyranny of the majority.
Jesus. Just accidentally saw the photo on Twitter. Poleaxed.
That's surely a murder charge, if the poor man doesn't recover.
As a member of the military (if it is what is alleged, which is by no means clear), this man should have known he could use lethal force even if unarmed.
Members of the military are usually only able to use lethal force if they have a weapon in their hand.
As a Royal Marine commando (looking at that ludicrous photo still of him with his green beret on), he might have got slightly more unarmed combat training.
That poll is quite extraordinary and shows up very starkly the disconnect between the 'chatterers' and the general public across all the parties and almost every age range. I think the presentation by Rudd was very poor but she and May are clearly on the mon ey with the public on this one.
Their analysis is; their solution isn't.
So the US is wrong to publish the job title, company, location and nationality of every foreigner with a green card?
As a solution, it's as almost as tokenistic as driving a van around telling immigrants to go home, and far more costly and disruptive.
It's also deeply illiberal – another Mayite example of the government snooping around the business of others. The government should step back.
This is not even primarily about Ukip, it is about this country's standing in the eyes of the world generally and the EU nations specifically. Expect waves of derision and "thank God they are on their way out" because foreigners won't appreciate that Ukip are nutters, they will think they are the political wing of the British people because they "own" Brexit. Thanks, ukip.
That is my concern.
Far too much is being made of so called British 'Racism'. It's certainly no worse than in other parts of Europe, and in an area of the country in which Eastern European voices are heard in high proportion, nothing much seems to have happened here.
Woolfe and Hookem sound like they had a 'mutual' bust up, and Woolfe has collapsed shortly after their fight.
I can't see a manslaughter much less a murder conviction in these circumstances. Indeed had fate conspired another way Hookem could have been the one in a critical condition.
Comments
Assuming it's not a woman (generally they don't take things outside) that's 14 possible names..
...and that future is "fucked"
Just yesterday the meme was that labour really had to watch out because a revitalised UKIP was coming for them in the North.
If May's intent matches her rhetoric (and we don't get a badly regarded fudged Brexit), there seems little point in a WWC UKIP. All there would seem to be a point in would be an ultra dry small state version of UKIPism, but it wouldn't really have a support base, and such MPs as might be attracted to it are better off in the Tories.
Edit: and "deeply regret" sounds very worrying.
BREAKING: Multiple sources suggest that the Steven Woolfe row was with fellow MEP and party defence spokesman Mike Hookem.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37575850?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_politics&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central
Maybe, but given her rhetoric, I think its going to be difficult politically for May to opt for soft Brexit now.
They went on shrilly in here and in other places yesterday about putting yellow stars of foreign workers, but they would be more than happy to put yellow stars on council estate dwellers to tell the polling booths to only count them as half a vote.
Is the same disgraceful approach as "you voted for BrExit, you pay for it/own it", which is like saying "you voted for Labour and they won so you can pay all the taxes". For these people there is no such thing as society just their over active self-regard.
Let's face it, UKIP is basically the Farage Party. If he decides it's served its purpose (which is has) and all these odd balls UKIP attracts aren't worth the trouble. he might decide the party's over... Literally!
If there is an open border between NI and the Republic, then the way to control immigration is to have a hard border between NI and mainland Britain, and make it very difficult for foreign folk (including Irish Irish) to get work, accommodation, any public services without the proper paperwork in NI.
Not sure how the customs thing will work in NI. If it is an open border with the Republic, then NI will require special status within the EU with a customs border with mainland Britain. A step towards a united Ireland. And it looks like it has the support of the DUP.
UKIP becomes more like a soap opera every day.
59% of people back Conservative proposals to make firms publish how many foreign workers they employ https://t.co/yk1XCOQ0pA https://t.co/5bqjCYvuwd
Which is what makes it so concerning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1EhqvQ3TWg
a) We are going to need immigration (just in a more controlled way please, more engineers less 18yr old dishwashers so to speak).
b) It's way too open to misinterpretation. A translation agency in Kensington is probably going to have a huge number of foreigners compared to a metal basher in a side street in rural Cornwall, that's not a "bad" thing per se, but it might be made to look like it. Individual company numbers and make up, aren't really relevant to the overall picture which is the source of the legitimate debate.
c) Doesn't feel right at all - so probably isn't.
https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/784010601014132736
Robert Nisbet @RobNisbetSky 2m2 minutes ago
I am now told by a senior UKIP source that @Steven_Woolfe condition in a Strasbourg hospital "is life threatening"
Yet more evidence for the dossier...
I hope Mr Woolfe pulls through. Terrible, and if one of his colleagues is to blame too!
If there was some hard data that allowed people to be better educated then I think some of the annoyance over immigration would end.
Less immigration means concrete measures to curb some of the access we have taken for granted. For EU citizens (who are most noticeable I'm sure to those who want to cut their number).
The public think that Rudd's speech is a breath of fresh air. All is well in the world. They voted for this and got it.
Of course, you or I and others on here could discuss some kind of more nuanced version of the above but it would just be more of the intelligentsia having a wankfest.
1) He was attacked with a single blow, possibly without warning and given no chance to defend himself or
2) A seemingly minor altercation has become more serious after the event due to progressing brain injury, and he has collapsed away from the initial incident
Let's just hope he suffers no long term injury from this.
Not good.
As a Royal Marine commando (looking at that ludicrous photo still of him with his green beret on), he might have got slightly more unarmed combat training.
News for you: it ain't happening. Tyranny of the majority.
In other news the UK surges forward into the current century: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-37567866
Hurrah!
I can't see a manslaughter much less a murder conviction in these circumstances. Indeed had fate conspired another way Hookem could have been the one in a critical condition.