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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Philip Hammond at 25/1 with Ladbrokes to be next out of the Cabinet must be worth a flutter on this basis. If he thinks he's unsackable, there has to be a possibility that will be put to the test.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,109
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    Yes, she hasn't started well in my view. I said I'd wait until the conference, and it's made her government look worse.

    Such a shame.
    Her target was not liberal upper middle-class PB readers but lower middle-class and working class Sun and Mail readers. On that front it went well
    Perhaps. It's a bit early to be declaring success.
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    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    It was her own words, live on the telly.

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/783195009550024704
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956

    The opposition to Mrs May from the right starts. Probably down to the soggy bright blue George Freeman influence.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/10/05/no-prime-minister-the-government-doesnt-always-know-whats-best/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    Interesting that the URL and the headline are different. I assume the URL is auto generated on first upload, but the headline later changed to be less critical. Good sub editing by the sounds of it.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    The alternative was Leadsom...
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    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,
    Don't forget the Le Pen seal of approval.
    Stop depressing me.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,008

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Can I refer to you the insightful posts of FF43 last night --

    “If Remainers had generally shown more interest in those that were left behind we would probably still be in the EU. The result was close enough that there were several factors that made the difference between remaining and leaving. That was one of them.”

    If you ignore and treat with contempt the people at the bottom, then you can’t expect them to help you when it comes to a referendum.

    I was a 'remainer', and I certainly don't ignore the people at the bottom, or treat them with contempt.

    If anything, as PB shows, leavers do that: their general support for grammar schools being a good example. Leave used these people, and cares little for them.

    IMO the main reason why the referendum was lost is simple: the EU had an offering that was unsaleable, before and after Cameron's reforms. They thought that decades of putting signs up: "This project funded by the EU." would win them love. MEPs remained faceless and unconnected with their electorate (with one or two notable good exceptions).
    The EU was trying to make people identify as European and most Brits not only don't, but are deeply sceptical of the agenda that was being pushed.
    Indeed, and that is one of the big failings of both the EU and the hardline EUphiles IMO. Their dream of a unified Europe has outmatched the desire of the populations of their member nations, and has been poorly sold. Some might say the dream is such a mess that it's impossible to sell well ...
    I agree with that. The political project is supported by a only small minority of the population of Europe. The trading project is widely supported. The transition (Maastricht) from "free movement of people with jobs" (driven by optimising trade economics) to "free movement of people as European citizens" was driven by the political project not the economic one.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,617
    edited October 2016

    Philip Hammond at 25/1 with Ladbrokes to be next out of the Cabinet must be worth a flutter on this basis. If he thinks he's unsackable, there has to be a possibility that will be put to the test.

    Yeah, I had a flutter last night.

    (Thanks to Doctor Fox for the headsup)
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    edited October 2016

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    It was her own words, live on the telly.

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/783195009550024704
    Yeh, so you're exaggerating it? Deport looks like your word here TSE...
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,793
    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    I'm waiting for the 3-5% speech bounce, the kind which makes seats 50-100 in Con targets look obtainable - the anti-May spin will be a sight to behold....
    It will be interesting to see if it registers- after Labour saw nothing despite "having the best conference" (sic) and May's "subdued speech which did not have much substance" (OGH).

    Although it got good coverage in the anticipated papers I'm not sure much attention is paid - what matters is the delegates went away with a spring in their step.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,806

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956

    Philip Hammond at 25/1 with Ladbrokes to be next out of the Cabinet must be worth a flutter on this basis. If he thinks he's unsackable, there has to be a possibility that will be put to the test.

    Good tip.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?

    Or come to that just about any other country in the world outside the EU, I think TSE needs to get out a bit more.

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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    I'm waiting for the 3-5% speech bounce, the kind which makes seats 50-100 in Con targets look obtainable - the anti-May spin will be a sight to behold....
    We're not the party of big government. What's the point in being a Tory if we've become Labour with blue rosettes. We can't have both major parties be in favour of big government and believe in state solutions instead of market solutions.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,185

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    Yes, she hasn't started well in my view. I said I'd wait until the conference, and it's made her government look worse.

    Such a shame.
    Her target was not liberal upper middle-class PB readers but lower middle-class and working class Sun and Mail readers. On that front it went well
    Perhaps. It's a bit early to be declaring success.
    We await the next polls
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    From the other day, but sort of on topic, my Sunday thread was going to be on this

    https://twitter.com/atulh/status/783426332130762753
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,793
    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    So no, she didn't say "we'll deport foreign doctors"

    Glad we cleared that up.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    I'm waiting for the 3-5% speech bounce, the kind which makes seats 50-100 in Con targets look obtainable - the anti-May spin will be a sight to behold....
    It will be interesting to see if it registers- after Labour saw nothing despite "having the best conference" (sic) and May's "subdued speech which did not have much substance" (OGH).

    Although it got good coverage in the anticipated papers I'm not sure much attention is paid - what matters is the delegates went away with a spring in their step.
    You're right of course, but for me it was the solid hour of good coverage on the BBC that suggests (and of course affects how) this is going to resonate. News at Ten followed by Newsnight.

    I've never seen (b. 1987) such unwavering support from the BBC for a Tory leader.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,185
    edited October 2016
    Indigo said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    The alternative was Leadsom...
    Leadsom actually gave a good conference speech in terms of delivery at least as good maybe even better than May's but May is clearly more competent
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    The contract has nothing to do with it. I have worked in several countries on work permits on effectively a permanent staff contract, if your work permit is renewed you continue, if it isnt you have defacto resigned, welcome to how things work in 120+ countries of the world.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    MaxPB said:

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    I'm waiting for the 3-5% speech bounce, the kind which makes seats 50-100 in Con targets look obtainable - the anti-May spin will be a sight to behold....
    We're not the party of big government. What's the point in being a Tory if we've become Labour with blue rosettes. We can't have both major parties be in favour of big government and believe in state solutions instead of market solutions.
    When the circumstances change, and I think we can all agree that they have, our philosophy changes too.

    But seriously, I'm confident that the statist solutions will be limited. Anything else would cost too much.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,806

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    So no, she didn't say "we'll deport foreign doctors"

    Glad we cleared that up.
    That's ridiculously obtuse. If you say they can stay until they can be replaced, you are saying they can't stay after they are replaced. And that by the way was the direct question asked of her.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Mr. Eagles, regardless of whether that's accurate (I have my doubts, the electorate never voted to have a recession), Corbyn certainly isn't Cameron.
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    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    So no, she didn't say "we'll deport foreign doctors"

    Glad we cleared that up.
    I said effectively deport, you don't have to use the word to carry out the act.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,793
    Indigo said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    The contract has nothing to do with it. I have worked in several countries on work permits on effectively a permanent staff contract, if your work permit is renewed you continue, if it isnt you have defacto resigned, welcome to how things work in 120+ countries of the world.
    It's already in place in the British Isles - medical staff come to Guernsey on fixed term contracts and are "deported" at the end of them.....it's how work permits work....
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,751
    Just to cheer everyone up - Donald Trump owns a home right on the seafront in Palm Beach - right in the firing line of Hurricane Matthew...
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,806
    Indigo said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    The contract has nothing to do with it. I have worked in several countries on work permits on effectively a permanent staff contract, if your work permit is renewed you continue, if it isnt you have defacto resigned, welcome to how things work in 120+ countries of the world.
    I am trying to give Amber Rudd the benefit of the doubt by suggesting she may have answered a different question from the one asked of her.
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Gadfly said:

    Incidentally, did we ever get a decision on what to call the Followers of May?

    I suggest Mayans.

    Mayflies?
    It's got to be Maybees.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    MaxPB said:

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    I'm waiting for the 3-5% speech bounce, the kind which makes seats 50-100 in Con targets look obtainable - the anti-May spin will be a sight to behold....
    We're not the party of big government. What's the point in being a Tory if we've become Labour with blue rosettes. We can't have both major parties be in favour of big government and believe in state solutions instead of market solutions.
    Health, Major, Macmillan, Disraeli ?
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,155
    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Can I refer to you the insightful posts of FF43 last night --

    “If Remainers had generally shown more interest in those that were left behind we would probably still be in the EU. The result was close enough that there were several factors that made the difference between remaining and leaving. That was one of them.”

    If you ignore and treat with contempt the people at the bottom, then you can’t expect them to help you when it comes to a referendum.

    I was a 'remainer', and I certainly don't ignore the people at the bottom, or treat them with contempt.

    If anything, as PB shows, leavers do that: their general support for grammar schools being a good example. Leave used these people, and cares little for them.

    IMO the main reason why the referendum was lost is simple: the EU had an offering that was unsaleable, before and after Cameron's reforms. They thought that decades of putting signs up: "This project funded by the EU." would win them love. MEPs remained faceless and unconnected with their electorate (with one or two notable good exceptions).
    The EU was trying to make people identify as European and most Brits not only don't, but are deeply sceptical of the agenda that was being pushed.
    Indeed, and that is one of the big failings of both the EU and the hardline EUphiles IMO. Their dream of a unified Europe has outmatched the desire of the populations of their member nations, and has been poorly sold. Some might say the dream is such a mess that it's impossible to sell well ...
    I agree with that. The political project is supported by a only small minority of the population of Europe. The trading project is widely supported. The transition (Maastricht) from "free movement of people with jobs" (driven by optimising trade economics) to "free movement of people as European citizens" was driven by the political project not the economic one.
    That's definitely true of British voters but have you seen any polling about the rest of the EU?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,793

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    So no, she didn't say "we'll deport foreign doctors"

    Glad we cleared that up.
    I said effectively deport, you don't have to use the word to carry out the act.
    When a work permit expires - what do you think happens?
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited October 2016
    FF43 said:

    Indigo said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    The contract has nothing to do with it. I have worked in several countries on work permits on effectively a permanent staff contract, if your work permit is renewed you continue, if it isnt you have defacto resigned, welcome to how things work in 120+ countries of the world.
    I am trying to give Amber Rudd the benefit of the doubt by suggesting she may have answered a different question from the one asked of her.
    I am suggesting that in international terms what she is doing is completely uncontroversial, its what just about every other country in the world does, but some how is it meant to be a great crime in the UK. Notably its the europhiles shouting about it because its part of the implementation of getting rid of Freedom of Movement, so there's a shock, I wish them luck on the doorsteps.

    It's already in place in the British Isles - medical staff come to Guernsey on fixed term contracts and are "deported" at the end of them.....it's how work permits work....

    Yes, well knows fascist states like Canada do the same thing, terrible!
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,751

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    So no, she didn't say "we'll deport foreign doctors"

    Glad we cleared that up.
    I said effectively deport, you don't have to use the word to carry out the act.
    When are you defecting to the LibDems, Mr Eagles?
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Indigo said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    The contract has nothing to do with it. I have worked in several countries on work permits on effectively a permanent staff contract, if your work permit is renewed you continue, if it isnt you have defacto resigned, welcome to how things work in 120+ countries of the world.
    It's already in place in the British Isles - medical staff come to Guernsey on fixed term contracts and are "deported" at the end of them.....it's how work permits work....
    Yes, here in Gib too. A friend of mine who is a govt lawyer is here on exactly that basis. All perfectly standard operating procedure.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,793
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    So no, she didn't say "we'll deport foreign doctors"

    Glad we cleared that up.
    That's ridiculously obtuse. If you say they can stay until they can be replaced, you are saying they can't stay after they are replaced. And that by the way was the direct question asked of her.
    And if they are here on a fixed term license, what's wrong with that?

    It's how much of the world operates - goodness, some vile despotic regimes even record the nationalities of foreign citizens working there, (the USA for one).
  • Options
    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    I don't know why people are getting their knickers in a twist. Conferences exist to say all the things that aren't actually going to happen.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    I'm waiting for the 3-5% speech bounce, the kind which makes seats 50-100 in Con targets look obtainable - the anti-May spin will be a sight to behold....
    We're not the party of big government. What's the point in being a Tory if we've become Labour with blue rosettes. We can't have both major parties be in favour of big government and believe in state solutions instead of market solutions.
    When the circumstances change, and I think we can all agree that they have, our philosophy changes too.

    But seriously, I'm confident that the statist solutions will be limited. Anything else would cost too much.
    The circumstances haven't really changed. We need to make the market free-er but ensure the people lower down the income scale are protected with a higher NLW. I posted about it yesterday and I've done the sums today, overall to introduce a £12.50 NLW, eliminate all in working benefits, introduce universal childcare and transferable tax allowance for one working parent families, lower corporation tax to 12.5% for SMEs and 15% for big business and eliminate employer's NI entirely, we'd be looking at additional spending of less than £10bn per year. For a one time resettlement between business, government and low paid employees I'd call that pretty cheap. It would increase the work incentive, we'd eliminate working poverty, businesses would pay less tax overall and their employees would feel more valued.

    The market solution to poverty is to steer the economy into high wages, low tax and better skills. We have the opportunity to have a grand resettlement with Brexit, instead the government are going to look at a statist solution, one that I would expect from Labour.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    So no, she didn't say "we'll deport foreign doctors"

    Glad we cleared that up.
    I said effectively deport, you don't have to use the word to carry out the act.
    When a work permit expires - what do you think happens?
    It is amazing how the EU project has successfully made everyone so scared of paperwork that has routinely been used for decades. Kudos to them. But scary for those of us who believe in the nation state and the importance of it to the security of individual freedoms from a strong and overbearing organizational federalism.
  • Options
    Indigo said:

    TonyE said:

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Can I refer to you the insightful posts of FF43 last night --

    “If Remainers had generally shown more interest in those that were left behind we would probably still be in the EU. The result was close enough that there were several factors that made the difference between remaining and leaving. That was one of them.”

    If you ignore and treat with contempt the people at the bottom, then you can’t expect them to help you when it comes to a referendum.

    HIstorically, the entire point of Conservatism was to 'keep the social order' - by making sure that the lower orders did not follow their French counterparts to revolution. Their means of doing it was to try to govern in a way that persuaded them that they were better off under patrician rule than by wrestling the reins of power away from the ruling classes.

    It would appear that nothing much has changed.
    It appears to be the Liberal Centre/Left who are sneering at the lower orders because they dared to get of their sofas and vote for BrExit against the advice of their betters. BrExit was a revolution, but a revolution largely against the Liberal Centre/Left Europhile consensus that has been running this country for the last thirty years.
    Even for this site, calling Maggie T a "left Europhile" is a bit much :o

  • Options
    FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    I didn't see or hear the May speech but it was well received on BBC and Sky News.

    I came here and it was received very poorly (on the whole).

    I was a fan of the Cameron govt. I'm socially liberal. I also supported Brexit purely on the sovereignty issue (which I believe trumped all else). I've never been a big fan of May but I thought her candidacy speech was impressive.

    I'll give May the opportunity to prove herself. Quiet, unflashy competence is not a bad trait.

    As a poor, working class boy I can understand and empathise with the huge mound of the electorate that fears for the future, sees unlimited EU immigration as a potential problem and suffers from stagnation in living standards.

    If there was a potent criticism of the Cam/Os govt it was that they struggled to empathise with those of us outside of their metropolitan/shire elites. May has been smart so far to re-identify with those poorer, fearful voters.

    Squaring the circle of Brexit/Economic Growth/Prosperous Future/Keeping the Tory Party United will be a tough, tough job. I happen to think that a Remain vote would've led to a whole host of other problems anyway (possibly worse ones over the long term, because the EU is intransigent, if nothing else). So I'm hopeful Brexit is still a great opportunity for Britain and that May - through her quiet competence - builds a more rounded economy, not one based almost solely on house price rises, personal borrowing, and the power of the London-based financial institutions.

    I'm willing to accept I might be wishing for pigs to fly. But nothing ventured, nothing gained.
  • Options

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    So no, she didn't say "we'll deport foreign doctors"

    Glad we cleared that up.
    I said effectively deport, you don't have to use the word to carry out the act.
    When are you defecting to the LibDems, Mr Eagles?
    I'm staying inside the tent, to ensure Mrs May's replacement is a decent, honourable, and election winning Tory.

    I didn't quit when IDS became leader, and I'm not going because of Mrs May.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    This actually reminds me quite a bit of the referendum debate.

    On the one side: Conservatives. On the others: Conservatives.

    The battle is between two views of the Conservative Party, Labour has vacated the field of play to dream of a world where submarines have no weapons, countries have no borders, and nobody criticises the Supreme Leader for not singing the national anthem at a Remembrance event.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,751

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    So no, she didn't say "we'll deport foreign doctors"

    Glad we cleared that up.
    I said effectively deport, you don't have to use the word to carry out the act.
    When are you defecting to the LibDems, Mr Eagles?
    I'm staying inside the tent, to ensure Mrs May's replacement is a decent, honourable, and election winning Tory.

    I didn't quit when IDS became leader, and I'm not going because of Mrs May.
    Good on you. Likewise, I have stayed in Labour through thick and thin.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,806
    Indigo said:



    I am suggesting that in international terms what she is doing is completely uncontroversial, its what just about every other country in the world does, but some how is it meant to be a great crime in the UK. Notably its the europhiles shouting about it because its part of the implementation of getting rid of Freedom of Movement, so there's a shock, I wish them luck on the doorsteps.

    It's already in place in the British Isles - medical staff come to Guernsey on fixed term contracts and are "deported" at the end of them.....it's how work permits work....

    Yes, well knows fascist states like Canada do the same thing, terrible!
    This conversation has mutated from denying that deportation will take place to saying it's normal and to be expected, so it's pointless to discuss further.

  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    MaxPB said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    ...

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    I'm waiting for the 3-5% speech bounce, the kind which makes seats 50-100 in Con targets look obtainable - the anti-May spin will be a sight to behold....
    We're not the party of big government. What's the point in being a Tory if we've become Labour with blue rosettes. We can't have both major parties be in favour of big government and believe in state solutions instead of market solutions.
    When the circumstances change, and I think we can all agree that they have, our philosophy changes too.

    But seriously, I'm confident that the statist solutions will be limited. Anything else would cost too much.
    The circumstances haven't really changed. We need to make the market free-er but ensure the people lower down the income scale are protected with a higher NLW. I posted about it yesterday and I've done the sums today, overall to introduce a £12.50 NLW, eliminate all in working benefits, introduce universal childcare and transferable tax allowance for one working parent families, lower corporation tax to 12.5% for SMEs and 15% for big business and eliminate employer's NI entirely, we'd be looking at additional spending of less than £10bn per year. For a one time resettlement between business, government and low paid employees I'd call that pretty cheap. It would increase the work incentive, we'd eliminate working poverty, businesses would pay less tax overall and their employees would feel more valued.

    The market solution to poverty is to steer the economy into high wages, low tax and better skills. We have the opportunity to have a grand resettlement with Brexit, instead the government are going to look at a statist solution, one that I would expect from Labour.
    This is a great post Max. But you know as well as I do that it would never happen. Not least because you're including housing benefit for working families (I imagine?) and ignoring the transitional arrangements and costs?
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,751
    Localism in action: Government has overridden Lancashire County Council to give fracking the go-ahead...
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,793
    edited October 2016
    FF43 said:

    Indigo said:



    I am suggesting that in international terms what she is doing is completely uncontroversial, its what just about every other country in the world does, but some how is it meant to be a great crime in the UK. Notably its the europhiles shouting about it because its part of the implementation of getting rid of Freedom of Movement, so there's a shock, I wish them luck on the doorsteps.

    It's already in place in the British Isles - medical staff come to Guernsey on fixed term contracts and are "deported" at the end of them.....it's how work permits work....

    Yes, well knows fascist states like Canada do the same thing, terrible!
    This conversation has mutated from denying that deportation will take place to saying it's normal and to be expected, so it's pointless to discuss further.

    No - you're running away from your egregious claim when it's pointed out it is how much of the world operates. It's not "deportation" - involuntary removals in the normal sense of the word.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    The market solution to poverty is to steer the economy into high wages, low tax and better skills. We have the opportunity to have a grand resettlement with Brexit, instead the government are going to look at a statist solution, one that I would expect from Labour.

    What about the thousands of jobs that don't generate £12.50/hr of value for their employer, like almost all catering related jobs ?

    The other aspect of this sort of plan that concerns me (as it does in its current implementation) is that for most people childcare from 1-4 is wholly inadequate. Take a mother with a 8 year old child, that goes to school from 8:30am until 3:15pm which is pretty standard. Unless she is lucky enough to have a very local job, which is unlikely in whole areas of the provincial country, that single mother will need to leave for work before her child starts at school, and regardless of her location she will not get to the school until well after the end of the school day, even the schools that offer after school clubs for working parents rarely offer it past 5pm, the time the mother might be thinking about leaving the office.

  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    TonyE said:

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Can I refer to you the insightful posts of FF43 last night --

    “If Remainers had generally shown more interest in those that were left behind we would probably still be in the EU. The result was close enough that there were several factors that made the difference between remaining and leaving. That was one of them.”

    If you ignore and treat with contempt the people at the bottom, then you can’t expect them to help you when it comes to a referendum.

    HIstorically, the entire point of Conservatism was to 'keep the social order' - by making sure that the lower orders did not follow their French counterparts to revolution. Their means of doing it was to try to govern in a way that persuaded them that they were better off under patrician rule than by wrestling the reins of power away from the ruling classes.

    It would appear that nothing much has changed.
    It appears to be the Liberal Centre/Left who are sneering at the lower orders because they dared to get of their sofas and vote for BrExit against the advice of their betters. BrExit was a revolution, but a revolution largely against the Liberal Centre/Left Europhile consensus that has been running this country for the last thirty years.
    Even for this site, calling Maggie T a "left Europhile" is a bit much :o

    That is why I said thirty years, to start with John Major, and I also said Centre/Left.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,051
    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    TSE was a Cameroon, a direction I myself was heading towards since Corbyn's takeover. I don't think there is much in common with Cameron and his successor.

    I never liked Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband and definitely not Corbyn. It is quite possible to loath your party leader and still feel affiliated to your party.

  • Options

    Localism in action: Government has overridden Lancashire County Council to give fracking the go-ahead...

    Or NIMBYism overruled?
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,806

    FF43 said:

    Indigo said:



    I am suggesting that in international terms what she is doing is completely uncontroversial, its what just about every other country in the world does, but some how is it meant to be a great crime in the UK. Notably its the europhiles shouting about it because its part of the implementation of getting rid of Freedom of Movement, so there's a shock, I wish them luck on the doorsteps.

    It's already in place in the British Isles - medical staff come to Guernsey on fixed term contracts and are "deported" at the end of them.....it's how work permits work....

    Yes, well knows fascist states like Canada do the same thing, terrible!
    This conversation has mutated from denying that deportation will take place to saying it's normal and to be expected, so it's pointless to discuss further.

    No - you're running away from your egregious claim when it's pointed out it is how much of the world operates.
    I am rising to the bait because I made no egregious claim. It really annoys me when people falsely attribute statements in order to discredit people with other views. Why don't you justify your own arguments, as I try to do?
  • Options
    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    Mortimer said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    So no, she didn't say "we'll deport foreign doctors"

    Glad we cleared that up.
    I said effectively deport, you don't have to use the word to carry out the act.
    When a work permit expires - what do you think happens?
    It is amazing how the EU project has successfully made everyone so scared of paperwork that has routinely been used for decades. Kudos to them. But scary for those of us who believe in the nation state and the importance of it to the security of individual freedoms from a strong and overbearing organizational federalism.
    This wording is ridiculous. Decisions in federal countries like Canada, Australia, USA and even Switzerland are taken at the lowest possible level. (New Hampshire is more self-governing than Hampshire is. The UK helped write the post-War West German constitution, which sets out states' rights and what is devolved away from Bonn/Berlin.)

    You are possibly confusing federalism with how France is run; i.e., from Paris. France tried in the early days to dictate how the EEC/EU should be run; i.e, from the centre.

    But niceties like this unfortunately don't influence referemdum results, so we have a bugger's muddle.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    TSE was a Cameroon, a direction I myself was heading towards since Corbyn's takeover. I don't think there is much in common with Cameron and his successor.

    I never liked Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband and definitely not Corbyn. It is quite possible to loath your party leader and still feel affiliated to your party.

    It causes amusement because for all his protestations of being a Tory (and to be fair his actions on the ground in support of his party) TSE's policy views are in almost every way identical to an Orange Book Liberal Democrat. Its very odd to want to support your party with the aim of turning it into the exact image of another party.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited October 2016

    This wording is ridiculous. Decisions in federal countries like Canada, Australia, USA and even Switzerland are taken at the lowest possible level. (New Hampshire is more self-governing than Hampshire is. The UK helped write the post-War West German constitution, which sets out states' rights and what is devolved away from Bonn/Berlin.)

    You are possibly confusing federalism with how France is run; i.e., from Paris. France tried in the early days to dictate how the EEC/EU should be run; i.e, from the centre.

    But niceties like this unfortunately don't influence referemdum results, so we have a bugger's muddle.

    The EU does run from the centre, when politicians are asked to point to meaningful implementations of the subsidiarity the answer comes there none! You can point to things the EU doesn't do, but that is because it hasn't taken control of them yet, the number of powers it has handed back to the member states is approximately zero.
  • Options

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    So no, she didn't say "we'll deport foreign doctors"

    Glad we cleared that up.
    I said effectively deport, you don't have to use the word to carry out the act.
    When are you defecting to the LibDems, Mr Eagles?
    I'm staying inside the tent, to ensure Mrs May's replacement is a decent, honourable, and election winning Tory.
    I trust you will pick the targets for your pissing judiciously?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Mr. Indigo, that said, Farron is not an Orange Booker and his stance is leftward. It just doesn't stand out as much as it might because Corbyn's a full-blown socialist.
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Indigo said:

    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    TSE was a Cameroon, a direction I myself was heading towards since Corbyn's takeover. I don't think there is much in common with Cameron and his successor.

    I never liked Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband and definitely not Corbyn. It is quite possible to loath your party leader and still feel affiliated to your party.

    It causes amusement because for all his protestations of being a Tory (and to be fair his actions on the ground in support of his party) TSE's policy views are in almost every way identical to an Orange Book Liberal Democrat. Its very odd to want to support your party with the aim of turning it into the exact image of another party.
    Sounds very Momentum-like.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    GIN1138 said:

    Nobody is "unsackable"

    Just ask David Cameron (who was essentially "sacked" by the electorate)

    As I often say, us Labour Leavers totally won the referendum - got rid of Cam and Ozzy as well as getting Brexit.
    And your prize is....

    JEREMY CORBYN!
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,312
    edited October 2016
    Localism down the pan with austerity.
    (edit: I see Sandy Rentool got there first)

    https://twitter.com/guardian/status/783957883398610944
  • Options

    Just to cheer everyone up - Donald Trump owns a home right on the seafront in Palm Beach - right in the firing line of Hurricane Matthew...

    It's looking increasingly likely that hurricane Matthew is going to cause extensive damage in Florida, but hopefully no loss of life if things are organised properly. There could be political points to be gained or lost from how this is handled.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited October 2016
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Indigo said:



    I am suggesting that in international terms what she is doing is completely uncontroversial, its what just about every other country in the world does, but some how is it meant to be a great crime in the UK. Notably its the europhiles shouting about it because its part of the implementation of getting rid of Freedom of Movement, so there's a shock, I wish them luck on the doorsteps.

    It's already in place in the British Isles - medical staff come to Guernsey on fixed term contracts and are "deported" at the end of them.....it's how work permits work....

    Yes, well knows fascist states like Canada do the same thing, terrible!
    This conversation has mutated from denying that deportation will take place to saying it's normal and to be expected, so it's pointless to discuss further.

    No - you're running away from your egregious claim when it's pointed out it is how much of the world operates.
    I am rising to the bait because I made no egregious claim. It really annoys me when people falsely attribute statements in order to discredit people with other views. Why don't you justify your own arguments, as I try to do?
    Ok, how about this then. We should ask people to leave when their work permit expires, if we dont we might as well give them a British passport at immigration. Doing this is entirely uncontroversial in just about every country in the world so its a bit bizarre that is causes so much fuss in the UK. One might think this was actually a cynical argument to try and retain freedom of movement rather than real outrage at the proposal.

    Business have temporary fluctuations in their staffing requirements, to meet this they hire fixed term contractors or contractors with short notice periods to cover the resourcing gap, who they thank very much, pay well, and ask to leave when they can cover the requirements with their own staff. Most of the world seems to think the same approach being taken by countries is pretty uncontroversial.

    Its also another tedious "nurses and teachers" argument, the UK regularly asks people with work permits in other industries to leave when their permits expire, such as in IT, why are doctors special if there are enough local doctors ? If there are not enough local doctors then clearly the country will extend work permits as required. Work permits are temporary, people should have no expectation that they convey any change of permanent status.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Gadfly said:

    Incidentally, did we ever get a decision on what to call the Followers of May?

    I suggest Mayans.

    Mayflies?
    Maybachs?

  • Options
    Indigo said:

    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    TSE was a Cameroon, a direction I myself was heading towards since Corbyn's takeover. I don't think there is much in common with Cameron and his successor.

    I never liked Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband and definitely not Corbyn. It is quite possible to loath your party leader and still feel affiliated to your party.

    It causes amusement because for all his protestations of being a Tory (and to be fair his actions on the ground in support of his party) TSE's policy views are in almost every way identical to an Orange Book Liberal Democrat. Its very odd to want to support your party with the aim of turning it into the exact image of another party.
    I'd point out it was a Orange Book Lib Dem that had the balls to do what Thatcher didn't.

    Privatise the Royal Mail.

    The labels no longer apply.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    She ground his idol into dust
  • Options

    Indigo said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    The contract has nothing to do with it. I have worked in several countries on work permits on effectively a permanent staff contract, if your work permit is renewed you continue, if it isnt you have defacto resigned, welcome to how things work in 120+ countries of the world.
    It's already in place in the British Isles - medical staff come to Guernsey on fixed term contracts and are "deported" at the end of them.....it's how work permits work....
    To be clear -

    Although in the British Isles, Guernsey is not in the EU of course and thus an example of how most of the world operate.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    Indigo said:

    This wording is ridiculous. Decisions in federal countries like Canada, Australia, USA and even Switzerland are taken at the lowest possible level. (New Hampshire is more self-governing than Hampshire is. The UK helped write the post-War West German constitution, which sets out states' rights and what is devolved away from Bonn/Berlin.)

    You are possibly confusing federalism with how France is run; i.e., from Paris. France tried in the early days to dictate how the EEC/EU should be run; i.e, from the centre.

    But niceties like this unfortunately don't influence referemdum results, so we have a bugger's muddle.

    The EU does run from the centre, when politicians are asked to point to meaningful implementations of the subsidiarity the answer comes there none! You can point to things the EU doesn't do, but that is because it hasn't taken control of them yet, the number of powers it has handed back to the member states is approximately zero.
    Yep. Apparently my wording is ridiculous when applied to examples far and away from what I was talking about. In the EU sense of 'federalism', I appear to be bang on.
  • Options

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    So no, she didn't say "we'll deport foreign doctors"

    Glad we cleared that up.
    I said effectively deport, you don't have to use the word to carry out the act.
    When are you defecting to the LibDems, Mr Eagles?
    I'm staying inside the tent, to ensure Mrs May's replacement is a decent, honourable, and election winning Tory.
    I trust you will pick the targets for your pissing judiciously?
    I will. I've got a target in mind for this weekend's hatchet job thread
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,793
    edited October 2016
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Indigo said:



    I am suggesting that in international terms what she is doing is completely uncontroversial, its what just about every other country in the world does, but some how is it meant to be a great crime in the UK. Notably its the europhiles shouting about it because its part of the implementation of getting rid of Freedom of Movement, so there's a shock, I wish them luck on the doorsteps.

    It's already in place in the British Isles - medical staff come to Guernsey on fixed term contracts and are "deported" at the end of them.....it's how work permits work....

    Yes, well knows fascist states like Canada do the same thing, terrible!
    This conversation has mutated from denying that deportation will take place to saying it's normal and to be expected, so it's pointless to discuss further.

    No - you're running away from your egregious claim when it's pointed out it is how much of the world operates.
    I am rising to the bait because I made no egregious claim. It really annoys me when people falsely attribute statements in order to discredit people with other views. Why don't you justify your own arguments, as I try to do?
    Why shouldn't people leave when their work permit expires?

    Why do you dress this up as "deportation"?
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,806
    Mortimer said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    3. The UK can unilaterally drop tariffs on imported good from non-EU countries making food from non-EU countries 30% cheaper and cars from (for example) US and Japan 10% cheaper. We also will not be bound by VAT regulations so we can choose to reduce or zero rate VAT on any good imported or sold that we feel so inclined. We also get to keep ALL the duty we do collect rather than given the vast majority of it to Brussels.

    I thought that the whole essence of a Customs Union was the same (common) external tariff to countries outside it?
    I think Indigo has this as an advantage for leaving the Customs Union (thanks for that by the way). Unilaterally reducing import tariffs makes us wealthier as we pay less for our imports.

    There is a potential downside in that it could bankrupt farmers across the board. Unlike finance, agriculture has hardly been discussed in the Brexit context. It's a very difficult area and it impacts our WTO negotiations as well as those directly with the EU. There's a real risk of UK farmers being wiped out as they see their gate prices plummet by more than 30%.
    So they'll see the same impact as has happened to British miners, shipbuilders and steel workers. Why should Conservative-voting farmers be insulated from these international challenges?
    Especially as farmers by and large voted for Brexit?

    However, they didn't vote to get rid of pesky foreigners just for those to flood the market and put them out of business. Rural Conservative MPs will be under a lot of pressure on this. The countryside is genuinely facing the end of a way of life
    It really isn't. Rural areas buy local produce. Post-war mass farming might be changing, but it is not facing the end.
    Farmers have been complaining about low milk prices for years, blaming supermarket buying power and the like. If those prices fall a further 30%-50%, which they will do if the UK doesn't negotiate a set of import quotas at the WTO to replace those it gets via the EU, we will see farmer bankruptcy across the board, It won't only be the marginally profitable farms. The same applies to meat and grain.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Re: Heathrow "independent" research

    "This latest, million-pound research was funded by the Natural Environment Research Council and alongside Cambridge, experts from the universities of Manchester and Hertfordshire, Imperial College London, CERC Limited and the National Physics lab were involved.
    Heathrow helped them put the sensors up and British Airways provided some flight data, but neither handed over any money or were involved in the actual work."

    Independent?

    Sounds pretty independent. How else would you locate sensors on an airport? How else would you get flight data?
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,155
    Indigo said:


    The EU does run from the centre, when politicians are asked to point to meaningful implementations of the subsidiarity the answer comes there none! You can point to things the EU doesn't do, but that is because it hasn't taken control of them yet, the number of powers it has handed back to the member states is approximately zero.

    Subsidiarity has been the principle all along and you have to work quite hard persuading all the member states that it's a good idea before you can move power to the EU in the first place, so you wouldn't expect a lot of things to have been moved to the EU then back again.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited October 2016

    Indigo said:

    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    TSE was a Cameroon, a direction I myself was heading towards since Corbyn's takeover. I don't think there is much in common with Cameron and his successor.

    I never liked Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband and definitely not Corbyn. It is quite possible to loath your party leader and still feel affiliated to your party.

    It causes amusement because for all his protestations of being a Tory (and to be fair his actions on the ground in support of his party) TSE's policy views are in almost every way identical to an Orange Book Liberal Democrat. Its very odd to want to support your party with the aim of turning it into the exact image of another party.
    I'd point out it was a Orange Book Lib Dem that had the balls to do what Thatcher didn't.

    Privatise the Royal Mail.

    The labels no longer apply.
    But you appear to hate Mr May for being in effect a bog standard middle of the road Tory, who isn't when it comes down to it suggesting doing anything that isn't done in most other democracies in the world, she might not be an Osbornite liberal, but she is definitely in the mold of Macmillan and Disraeli.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,793
    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    She ground his idol into dust
    And hurt the feelings of his other public school posh boy crush....when she said mean things to him (allegedly)
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    Yes, but a newly trained doctor in 2025 won't be able to replace someone with 10 years of experience: it's not an equivalent role.

    Essentially there will be a tapering effect over time, but the existing doctors who want to stay will be able to in practice
  • Options
    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    TSE was a Cameroon, a direction I myself was heading towards since Corbyn's takeover. I don't think there is much in common with Cameron and his successor.

    I never liked Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband and definitely not Corbyn. It is quite possible to loath your party leader and still feel affiliated to your party.

    It causes amusement because for all his protestations of being a Tory (and to be fair his actions on the ground in support of his party) TSE's policy views are in almost every way identical to an Orange Book Liberal Democrat. Its very odd to want to support your party with the aim of turning it into the exact image of another party.
    I'd point out it was a Orange Book Lib Dem that had the balls to do what Thatcher didn't.

    Privatise the Royal Mail.

    The labels no longer apply.
    But you appear to hate Mr May for being in effect a bog standard middle of the road Tory, who isn't when it comes down to it suggesting doing anything that isn't done in most other democracies in the world, she might not be an Osbornite liberal, but she is definitely in the mold of Macmillan and Disraeli.
    Moldy Tories?

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    I'm waiting for the 3-5% speech bounce, the kind which makes seats 50-100 in Con targets look obtainable - the anti-May spin will be a sight to behold....
    It will be interesting to see if it registers- after Labour saw nothing despite "having the best conference" (sic) and May's "subdued speech which did not have much substance" (OGH).

    Although it got good coverage in the anticipated papers I'm not sure much attention is paid - what matters is the delegates went away with a spring in their step.
    You're right of course, but for me it was the solid hour of good coverage on the BBC that suggests (and of course affects how) this is going to resonate. News at Ten followed by Newsnight.

    I've never seen (b. 1987) such unwavering support from the BBC for a Tory leader.
    You are young!

    Are you come to Inkfair in London October? If so perhaps a coffee...it's at my office...
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713
    Simple... allow foreign workers to apply for British citizenship after their period of work permits are up.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,442
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    I'm waiting for the 3-5% speech bounce, the kind which makes seats 50-100 in Con targets look obtainable - the anti-May spin will be a sight to behold....
    It will be interesting to see if it registers- after Labour saw nothing despite "having the best conference" (sic) and May's "subdued speech which did not have much substance" (OGH).

    Although it got good coverage in the anticipated papers I'm not sure much attention is paid - what matters is the delegates went away with a spring in their step.
    You're right of course, but for me it was the solid hour of good coverage on the BBC that suggests (and of course affects how) this is going to resonate. News at Ten followed by Newsnight.

    I've never seen (b. 1987) such unwavering support from the BBC for a Tory leader.
    The soundbites are very lefty-liberal BBC-friendly. Plus bigging her up deflects license fee opponents.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,793
    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    Essentially there will be a tapering effect over time, but the existing doctors who want to stay will be able to in practice
    No! No! No! All Foreign doctors are going to be frog marched to the airport, preferably in chains, but definitely in orange jump suits and chucked onto the first flight to who cares where. George Osborne told me, so it must be true...
  • Options

    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    She ground his idol into dust
    And hurt the feelings of his other public school posh boy crush....when she said mean things to him (allegedly)
    You're obsessed with public schoolboys. Are you a member of The Socialist Workers' Party?
  • Options
    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    She ground his idol into dust
    And hurt the feelings of his other public school posh boy crush....when she said mean things to him (allegedly)
    You're obsessed with public schoolboys. Are you a member of The Socialist Workers' Party?
    And you are obsessed by grammar schoolboys...
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    Essentially there will be a tapering effect over time, but the existing doctors who want to stay will be able to in practice
    No! No! No! All Foreign doctors are going to be frog marched to the airport, preferably in chains, but definitely in orange jump suits and chucked onto the first flight to who cares where. George Osborne told me, so it must be true...
    Frog-marched, I assume, because there won't be enough cattle trucks to cope?
  • Options

    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    She ground his idol into dust
    And hurt the feelings of his other public school posh boy crush....when she said mean things to him (allegedly)
    You're obsessed with public schoolboys. Are you a member of The Socialist Workers' Party?
    Are you a public school OB, TSE? I think we should be told.

  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,793

    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    She ground his idol into dust
    And hurt the feelings of his other public school posh boy crush....when she said mean things to him (allegedly)
    You're obsessed with public schoolboys. Are you a member of The Socialist Workers' Party?
    And you are obsessed by grammar schoolboys...
    Grammar shcool Girl (who got into Oxford....)
  • Options

    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    She ground his idol into dust
    And hurt the feelings of his other public school posh boy crush....when she said mean things to him (allegedly)
    You're obsessed with public schoolboys. Are you a member of The Socialist Workers' Party?
    Are you a public school OB, TSE? I think we should be told.

    I'm a working class Northerner.
  • Options

    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    She ground his idol into dust
    And hurt the feelings of his other public school posh boy crush....when she said mean things to him (allegedly)
    You're obsessed with public schoolboys. Are you a member of The Socialist Workers' Party?
    And you are obsessed by grammar schoolboys...
    Grammar shcool Girl (who got into Oxford....)
    See, grammar schools don't help kids, they end up in universities that are complete dumps :lol:
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    twitter.com/AGKD123/status/783961203622240257

    twitter.com/cliodiaspora/status/783923087112896513

    Simple... allow foreign workers to apply for British citizenship after their period of work permits are up.
    Slightly more sensible than the current system where they could just buy a pet cat and then claim the right to stay as an Article 8 "family life".

  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,793

    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    She ground his idol into dust
    And hurt the feelings of his other public school posh boy crush....when she said mean things to him (allegedly)
    You're obsessed with public schoolboys. Are you a member of The Socialist Workers' Party?
    And you are obsessed by grammar schoolboys...
    Grammar shcool Girl (who got into Oxford....)
    See, grammar schools don't help kids, they end up in universities that are complete dumps :lol:
    Cameron and Osborne went to a "complete dump"?

    You didn't apply, by any chance did you?
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    .

    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    She ground his idol into dust
    And hurt the feelings of his other public school posh boy crush....when she said mean things to him (allegedly)
    You're obsessed with public schoolboys. Are you a member of The Socialist Workers' Party?
    Are you a public school OB, TSE? I think we should be told.

    I'm a working class Northerner.
    That's a lawyer's answer.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Mr. Eagles, not just that, judging by your wardrobe you're colour-blind too :D
  • Options
    GeoffM said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    Essentially there will be a tapering effect over time, but the existing doctors who want to stay will be able to in practice
    No! No! No! All Foreign doctors are going to be frog marched to the airport, preferably in chains, but definitely in orange jump suits and chucked onto the first flight to who cares where. George Osborne told me, so it must be true...
    Frog-marched, I assume, because there won't be enough cattle trucks to cope?
    Ms Rudd will arrange for appropriate car drivers to chauffeur them and promises that none will be Boris.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,617
    edited October 2016

    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    She ground his idol into dust
    And hurt the feelings of his other public school posh boy crush....when she said mean things to him (allegedly)
    You're obsessed with public schoolboys. Are you a member of The Socialist Workers' Party?
    And you are obsessed by grammar schoolboys...
    Grammar shcool Girl (who got into Oxford....)
    See, grammar schools don't help kids, they end up in universities that are complete dumps :lol:
    Cameron and Osborne went to a "complete dump"?

    You didn't apply, by any chance did you?
    Nah. In my day you could only apply to either Oxford or Cambridge, not both, so I applied to the best university in the world, Cambridge.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited October 2016
    This must be a strong candidate for todays "You couldn't make it up"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/06/paedophile-caught-with-137k-indecent-images-of-children-spared-j/

    A paedophile who was found with more than 137,000 indecent images of children has been spared jail because he wants to start a family.

    (In other news, the Ched Evans case that caused so much debate here a year or so ago is back in court for the retrial)
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,448
    Charles said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    I'm waiting for the 3-5% speech bounce, the kind which makes seats 50-100 in Con targets look obtainable - the anti-May spin will be a sight to behold....
    It will be interesting to see if it registers- after Labour saw nothing despite "having the best conference" (sic) and May's "subdued speech which did not have much substance" (OGH).

    Although it got good coverage in the anticipated papers I'm not sure much attention is paid - what matters is the delegates went away with a spring in their step.
    You're right of course, but for me it was the solid hour of good coverage on the BBC that suggests (and of course affects how) this is going to resonate. News at Ten followed by Newsnight.

    I've never seen (b. 1987) such unwavering support from the BBC for a Tory leader.
    You are young!

    Are you come to Inkfair in London October? If so perhaps a coffee...it's at my office...
    May looks like she should be PM. Mostly sounds like it too, although she is pretty ropey at big set-pieces viewing yesterday's on the play back (she really needs to sort out how she deals with clap points).

    Jezza does not, and labour MPs who knock on doors know this.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,062

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    [Amber Rudd] Asked whether she could reassure foreign NHS staff they were welcome to stay for now, she said: “Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period – until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

    Seems pretty clear, unless she misheard the question and was talking instead about foreign doctors employed on future short term contracts.
    So no, she didn't say "we'll deport foreign doctors"

    Glad we cleared that up.
    I said effectively deport, you don't have to use the word to carry out the act.
    When are you defecting to the LibDems, Mr Eagles?
    I'm staying inside the tent, to ensure Mrs May's replacement is a decent, honourable, and election winning Tory.

    I didn't quit when IDS became leader, and I'm not going because of Mrs May.
    What is your objection to Mrs May. Do you think she has been too shrill on immigration? My Facebook timeline has been full of bile but I was surprised by how reasonable the BBC was last night. May herself didn't see very shocking. I'd have preferred it if she'd reached out to migrants alredy here saying their contribution was valued whatever future policy might be but has she actually attacked immigrants? And wasn't she one of the first Tories to be openly pro-gay?
  • Options

    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    She ground his idol into dust
    And hurt the feelings of his other public school posh boy crush....when she said mean things to him (allegedly)
    You're obsessed with public schoolboys. Are you a member of The Socialist Workers' Party?
    Are you a public school OB, TSE? I think we should be told.

    I'm a working class Northerner.
    See? He/she/it has ducked the question...

  • Options
    Charles said:

    Re: Heathrow "independent" research

    "This latest, million-pound research was funded by the Natural Environment Research Council and alongside Cambridge, experts from the universities of Manchester and Hertfordshire, Imperial College London, CERC Limited and the National Physics lab were involved.
    Heathrow helped them put the sensors up and British Airways provided some flight data, but neither handed over any money or were involved in the actual work."

    Independent?

    Sounds pretty independent. How else would you locate sensors on an airport? How else would you get flight data?
    1. Natural Environment Research Council are "supported mainly by the Department for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy (BEIS)". So funded by Govt and they then produce research with friendly help from the two companies that want a good result.
    2. The assumptions on diesil engines in 2025+ look as reliable as a german car manufacturers compliance with EU emission standards.

  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    @EmersonPolling

    Florida:
    Trump 45 (+1)
    Clinton 44
    Johnson 4
    Stein 3

    Nevada:
    Trump 43
    Clinton 43
    Johnson 9
    Stein 4

    https://t.co/lbSxai40mc
This discussion has been closed.