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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The impact of the 1st debate on WH2016 & the prospects now

SystemSystem Posts: 11,711
edited September 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The impact of the 1st debate on WH2016 & the prospects now for Corbyn: this week’s PB/Polling Matters TV show/podcast

After a big few days in both UK and US politics the PB/Polling Matters looks in detail at the impact of Corbyn’s re-election and where the Trump-Clinton battle stands now. How much importance should we attach to the instant post debate polling and in the UK is there any way that Corbyn can now move forward following his convincing leadership victory.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,528
    edited September 2016
    First like the LibDems in 2020 (you heard it here first, two days later there was a whole thread on it....)
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    second .. like spurs
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    Absolutely astonished that Cellino got mixed up something like this

    https://twitter.com/PhilHayYEP/status/781236721908416513
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,300
    edited September 2016
    Not winning like the 21st Century Socialist Party.....
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154
    IanB2 said:

    First like the LibDems in 2020 (you heard it here first, two days later there was a whole thread on it....)

    And how we laughed....
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,300
    edited September 2016

    Absolutely astonished that Cellino got mixed up something like this

    https://twitter.com/PhilHayYEP/status/781236721908416513

    He is very forgetful man...like forgetting to pay import duty on his yacht.
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    SeanT said:

    Fuck the football

    Theresa is greenlighting Heathrow. This is EXACTLY what Britain has to do post-Brexit. Go all out for growth, big shows of confidence. We are open for business. Build build build.

    Slash corporate tax, throw up skyscrapers EVERYWHERE, give bankers free hookers with coke ALREADY LINED UP on their buttocks.

    Not being an expert in these things, but I thought snorting coke off a hooker's breasts was the ultimate, not her buttocks.
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    So if Theresa May does green light Heathrow expansion, will Zac Goldsmith trigger a by election.

    Now that's a seat I can see the Lib Dems regaining in that scenario.
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    No, USA voters
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    No, USA voters
    Ohhh now that is more interesting.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,189
    edited September 2016
    SeanT said:

    Fuck the football

    Theresa is greenlighting Heathrow. This is EXACTLY what Britain has to do post-Brexit. Go all out for growth, big shows of confidence. We are open for business. Build build build.

    Slash corporate tax, throw up skyscrapers EVERYWHERE, give bankers free hookers with coke ALREADY LINED UP on their buttocks.

    Sir Simon Jenkins will go beserk if you try to 'throw up skyscrapers everywhere'. That could have been the vision in Boris' Brexit Britain, it is rather less likely in the Britain of traditionalist Vicar's daughter Theresa
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    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Fuck the football

    Theresa is greenlighting Heathrow. This is EXACTLY what Britain has to do post-Brexit. Go all out for growth, big shows of confidence. We are open for business. Build build build.

    Slash corporate tax, throw up skyscrapers EVERYWHERE, give bankers free hookers with coke ALREADY LINED UP on their buttocks.

    Not being an expert in these things, but I thought snorting coke off a hooker's breasts was the ultimate, not her buttocks.
    We need to vary the offer. France is offering to speak English.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/07d81e34-859c-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5.html#axzz4LaUNl6EY
    Sacré bleu
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,528

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Fuck the football

    Theresa is greenlighting Heathrow. This is EXACTLY what Britain has to do post-Brexit. Go all out for growth, big shows of confidence. We are open for business. Build build build.

    Slash corporate tax, throw up skyscrapers EVERYWHERE, give bankers free hookers with coke ALREADY LINED UP on their buttocks.

    Not being an expert in these things, but I thought snorting coke off a hooker's breasts was the ultimate, not her buttocks.
    We need to vary the offer. France is offering to speak English.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/07d81e34-859c-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5.html#axzz4LaUNl6EY
    Sacré bleu
    Zut Alors
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    First Hinkley Point, now Heathrow, the South will be devastated and the public coffers empty by the time the Tories are out of office.

    Now large parts of Western London will have to be demolished to expand an unworkable airport.

    I curse every Tory to get stuck at Heathrow for at least 8 hours waiting for their flight.
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    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Fuck the football

    Theresa is greenlighting Heathrow. This is EXACTLY what Britain has to do post-Brexit. Go all out for growth, big shows of confidence. We are open for business. Build build build.

    Slash corporate tax, throw up skyscrapers EVERYWHERE, give bankers free hookers with coke ALREADY LINED UP on their buttocks.

    Not being an expert in these things, but I thought snorting coke off a hooker's breasts was the ultimate, not her buttocks.
    We need to vary the offer. France is promising to speak English.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/07d81e34-859c-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5.html#axzz4LaUNl6EY
    English is the best language in the world! :)
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited September 2016
    Have visited the site - it's YouGov US.

    Observation: debate performance stats strong for Hillary, but tight on support for policies (Trump only 4% behind.)

    Overall, this and other polls seem to be positive for Clinton - suggesting debate was more like a one goal win than the score draw I initially thought it was, based on reports - but Trump is certainly not out of this. The unthinkable remains a distinct possibility...
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    It seems the next yougov poll might show Hillary at 47%
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    SeanT said:

    Fuck the football

    Theresa is greenlighting Heathrow. This is EXACTLY what Britain has to do post-Brexit. Go all out for growth, big shows of confidence. We are open for business. Build build build.

    Slash corporate tax, throw up skyscrapers EVERYWHERE, give bankers free hookers with coke ALREADY LINED UP on their buttocks.

    OMG finally. Jeez...
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    frpenkridgefrpenkridge Posts: 670
    edited September 2016
    Just watching the repeat of "Rome the Eternal City" on BBC4 which is dealing with Constantine converting Rome from paganism to Christianity. Emphasis was laid on Christ being transformed from a criminal executed on the cross to being an emperor installed on a throne in heaven, and the ragged disciples being turned into senators in splendid togas. And it struck me that this is what Tony Blair did to the old Labour party. The signs are that New Labour will not last as long as Christianity.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,061
    edited September 2016

    These polls shouldn't be ignored. They should be explained.

    You are going to regret saying that... :)

    Step 1: go to your poll's website. Let's use http://time.com/4506217/presidential-debate-clinton-trump-survey/ as an example

    Step 2: Look at the page source code. On my browser I can do this by right-click->"view page source", but your browser may be different

    Step 3: find the code where the voting takes place. In the Time example it's immediately after the text "...controlled by people who want to vote."

    Step 4: look at that code. In our example it looks like this below. I've replaced the chevrons with square brackets so you can see it:

    [script type="text/javascript" src="//cdn.playbuzz.com/widget/feed.js"][[/script]
    [div class="pb_feed" data-provider="WordPress 4.6.1-RC1-38499" data-key="time.com" data-tags="" data-game="//www.playbuzz.com/TIME/vote-now-who-won-the-first-clinton-trump-debate" data-game-info="false" data-comments="false" data-shares="false" data-recommend="false" data-links="" data-width="auto" data-height="auto" data-margin-top="150"][/div]

    The "script" tag tells you where the Javascript is, the "div" tag (in this example!) envalues parameters the form will use.

    Step 5: open up the javascript code. In our example put //cdn.playbuzz.com/widget/feed.js in your browser

    Step 6: Identify the form in the code. For an example of a form see here: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_form.asp

    At a guess it's somewhere in the code {http.overrideMimeType&&http.overrideMimeType("text/xml"),format=formatArg||"text",format=format.toLowerCase(),method=method||"GET",parameters=null,"POST"==method&&(parts=url.split("?"),url=parts[0],parameters=parts[1]),now="uid="+(new Date).getTime(),url+=url.indexOf("?")+1?"&":"?",url+=now;try{http.open(method,url,!0)}catch(e){return pb.debugLog("speed-exception",e),void 0}"POST"==method&&void 0!==http.setRequestHeader&&http.setRequestHeader("Content-type","application/x-www-form-urlencoded") but this is out of my wheelhouse.

    Step 7: extract the form code and the parameters it needs.

    Step 8: Write code to submit the form. See here for an example: http://www.javascript-coder.com/javascript-form/javascript-form-submit.phtml

    Step 9: Wrap that code in a loop. See here for a loop: http://www.w3schools.com/js/js_loop_for.asp

    Step 10: Run the loop code. Depending on the speed of your connection, you could submit approx 1-10K votes a second.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,528

    Just watching the repeat of "Rome the Eternal City" on BBC4 which is dealing with Constantine converting Rome from paganism to Christianity. Emphasis was laid on Christ being transformed from a criminal executed on the cross an being an emperor installed on a throne in heaven, and the ragged disciples being turned into senators in splendid togas. And it struck me that this is what Tony Blair did to the old Labour party. The signs are that New Labour will not last as long as Christianity.

    One died more quickly than the other, for sure.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079

    In speech after speech at our Labour conference this week we have heard that although the occupant of Number 10 Downing Street has changed, the Tories haven't

    Amazing - the Labour conference feels like the Tories haven't changed.

    I kid, of course, the opposition is just using the tried and true 'time for a change' approach. Although given Cameron was able to win despite heading a government of 'austerity' and 'division' for five years, maybe Labour should push that, no, the Tories have changed, they're now even worse than Cameron.
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    619619 Posts: 1,784
    Speedy said:

    It seems the next yougov poll might show Hillary at 47%
    ha ace

    Make it 7 polls for Clinton. The story is pretty consistent, even though they vary slightly in whether it's debate viewers, followers, etc. https://t.co/0Cpd6rHx69
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    SeanT said:

    Speedy said:

    First Hinkley Point, now Heathrow, the South will be devastated and the public coffers empty by the time the Tories are out of office.

    Now large parts of Western London will have to be demolished to expand an unworkable airport.

    I curse every Tory to get stuck at Heathrow for at least 8 hours waiting for their flight.

    Don't be ridiculous. We fly in fucking Business Class, you whingeing little pleb. We're so drunk on free champagne we don't even NOTICE delays.
    Curses are class neutral.

    And you could be waiting 8 hours stuck in traffic just outside Heathrow, while I'll be using Gatwick, ha.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    edited September 2016
    SeanT said:



    Slash corporate tax, throw up skyscrapers EVERYWHERE, give bankers free hookers with coke ALREADY LINED UP on their buttocks.

    IDK, wouldn't that last one basically be welfare for coke snorting bankers? I feel like the country should be trying to encourage aspiration by having people prepare their own lines of coked up hookers. Back in my day you had to earn that sort of thing, not have it handed to you.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    619 said:

    Speedy said:

    It seems the next yougov poll might show Hillary at 47%
    ha ace

    Make it 7 polls for Clinton. The story is pretty consistent, even though they vary slightly in whether it's debate viewers, followers, etc. https://t.co/0Cpd6rHx69
    Are there any that polled a representative sample of the electorate?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    edited September 2016
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Fuck the football

    Theresa is greenlighting Heathrow. This is EXACTLY what Britain has to do post-Brexit. Go all out for growth, big shows of confidence. We are open for business. Build build build.

    Slash corporate tax, throw up skyscrapers EVERYWHERE, give bankers free hookers with coke ALREADY LINED UP on their buttocks.

    Not being an expert in these things, but I thought snorting coke off a hooker's breasts was the ultimate, not her buttocks.
    We need to vary the offer. France is promising to speak English.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/07d81e34-859c-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5.html#axzz4LaUNl6EY
    I see either 11th century kings are surprisingly active or perhaps Mr Meeks has a pseudonym in the FT comments section

    Harold Godwinson
    1 minute ago

    So long as the people who voted Brexit suffer all the consequences I have no problem.

    If anti-Brexiters suffer any harm there should be a redistribution of wealth from pro to anti Brexit areas.

    In fact to be more exact the redistribution of wealth from anti to pro Brexit areas should be severely curtailed.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,930
    edited September 2016
    Given Boris's behavior in Turkey this week I'm beginning to think that £350m for the NHS might not materialize afterall...
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    viewcode said:

    These polls shouldn't be ignored. They should be explained.

    You are going to regret saying that... :)

    Step 1: go to your poll's website. Let's use http://time.com/4506217/presidential-debate-clinton-trump-survey/ as an example

    Step 2: Look at the page source code. On my browser I can do this by right-click->"view page source", but your browser may be different

    Step 3: find the code where the voting takes place. In the Time example it's immediately after the text "...controlled by people who want to vote."

    Step 4: look at that code. In our example it looks like this below. I've replaced the chevrons with square brackets so you can see it:

    [script type="text/javascript" src="//cdn.playbuzz.com/widget/feed.js"][[/script]
    [div class="pb_feed" data-provider="WordPress 4.6.1-RC1-38499" data-key="time.com" data-tags="" data-game="//www.playbuzz.com/TIME/vote-now-who-won-the-first-clinton-trump-debate" data-game-info="false" data-comments="false" data-shares="false" data-recommend="false" data-links="" data-width="auto" data-height="auto" data-margin-top="150"][/div]

    The "script" tag tells you where the Javascript is, the "div" tag (in this example!) envalues parameters the form will use.

    Step 5: open up the javascript code. In our example put //cdn.playbuzz.com/widget/feed.js in your browser

    Step 6: Identify the form in the code. For an example of a form see here: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_form.asp

    At a guess it's somewhere in the code {http.overrideMimeType&&http.overrideMimeType("text/xml"),format=formatArg||"text",format=format.toLowerCase(),method=method||"GET",parameters=null,"POST"==method&&(parts=url.split("?"),url=parts[0],parameters=parts[1]),now="uid="+(new Date).getTime(),url+=url.indexOf("?")+1?"&":"?",url+=now;try{http.open(method,url,!0)}catch(e){return pb.debugLog("speed-exception",e),void 0}"POST"==method&&void 0!==http.setRequestHeader&&http.setRequestHeader("Content-type","application/x-www-form-urlencoded") but this is out of my wheelhouse.

    Step 7: extract the form code and the parameters it needs.

    Step 8: Write code to submit the form. See here for an example: http://www.javascript-coder.com/javascript-form/javascript-form-submit.phtml

    Step 9: Wrap that code in a loop. See here for a loop: http://www.w3schools.com/js/js_loop_for.asp

    Step 10: Run the loop code. Depending on the speed of your connection, you could submit approx 1-10K votes a second.
    While I don't doubt it's easy to write the script, I seriously doubt that they failed to include software to discard multiple votes from the same IP. (yes, you could use your favorite bot net instead).
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    SeanT said:

    It is galling for lefties that the obvious result of their working classes voting for Brexit is a much more rightwing, free-wheeling, aggressive and expansionist Tory-max 18th century Britain, with lower corporate taxes, massive investment in infrastructure where it helps (southern England), the stoning of suspicious foreigners on Cheapside, an end to *restraint* on bankers bonuses, big fuck off nuclear subs to menace Belgium with incineration, plentiful gin, and so forth

    Not as galling as it will be for the WWC CDE voters of Leaverstan, though I agree Remania will do well out of Brexit.
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    Hinckley Point, Heathrow runway and HS 2.

    All very big infrastructure projects and all good for UK PLC (ex EU)
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,300
    edited September 2016
    Mid Life Crisis Mason vs Blair speech writer coming up on Newsnight....
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,061
    HYUFD said:

    Sir Simon Jenkins will go beserk if you try to 'throw up skyscrapers everywhere'.

    Added bonus, if you ask me

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,189
    Speedy said:

    It seems the next yougov poll might show Hillary at 47%
    She might even beat Romney then!
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    Have to admit I've already grown bored by the US election - same thing happened last time, I just get burned out on it.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    RobD said:

    619 said:

    Speedy said:

    It seems the next yougov poll might show Hillary at 47%
    ha ace

    Make it 7 polls for Clinton. The story is pretty consistent, even though they vary slightly in whether it's debate viewers, followers, etc. https://t.co/0Cpd6rHx69
    Are there any that polled a representative sample of the electorate?
    So far only 4, but only 1 was conducted entirely after the debate and it's the only one that has shown any movement.

    I don't count Echelon Insights because Pat Ruffini is suspect, and their only other poll was from months ago so we can't compare the situation before and after.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,432
    viewcode said:

    These polls shouldn't be ignored. They should be explained.

    You are going to regret saying that... :)

    Step 1: go to your poll's website. Let's use http://time.com/4506217/presidential-debate-clinton-trump-survey/ as an example

    Step 2: Look at the page source code. On my browser I can do this by right-click->"view page source", but your browser may be different

    Step 3: find the code where the voting takes place. In the Time example it's immediately after the text "...controlled by people who want to vote."

    Step 4: look at that code. In our example it looks like this below. I've replaced the chevrons with square brackets so you can see it:

    [script type="text/javascript" src="//cdn.playbuzz.com/widget/feed.js"][[/script]
    [div class="pb_feed" data-provider="WordPress 4.6.1-RC1-38499" data-key="time.com" data-tags="" data-game="//www.playbuzz.com/TIME/vote-now-who-won-the-first-clinton-trump-debate" data-game-info="false" data-comments="false" data-shares="false" data-recommend="false" data-links="" data-width="auto" data-height="auto" data-margin-top="150"][/div]

    The "script" tag tells you where the Javascript is, the "div" tag (in this example!) envalues parameters the form will use.

    Step 5: open up the javascript code. In our example put //cdn.playbuzz.com/widget/feed.js in your browser

    Step 6: Identify the form in the code. For an example of a form see here: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_form.asp

    At a guess it's somewhere in the code {http.overrideMimeType&&http.overrideMimeType("text/xml"),format=formatArg||"text",format=format.toLowerCase(),method=method||"GET",parameters=null,"POST"==method&&(parts=url.split("?"),url=parts[0],parameters=parts[1]),now="uid="+(new Date).getTime(),url+=url.indexOf("?")+1?"&":"?",url+=now;try{http.open(method,url,!0)}catch(e){return pb.debugLog("speed-exception",e),void 0}"POST"==method&&void 0!==http.setRequestHeader&&http.setRequestHeader("Content-type","application/x-www-form-urlencoded") but this is out of my wheelhouse.

    Step 7: extract the form code and the parameters it needs.

    Step 8: Write code to submit the form. See here for an example: http://www.javascript-coder.com/javascript-form/javascript-form-submit.phtml

    Step 9: Wrap that code in a loop. See here for a loop: http://www.w3schools.com/js/js_loop_for.asp

    Step 10: Run the loop code. Depending on the speed of your connection, you could submit approx 1-10K votes a second.
    A demonstration of why this site is simply the best.
  • Options
    FPT:
    FF43 said:

    Jobabob said:

    Jobabob said:

    Things are getting very heated here for an election that none of us get to vote in.

    If Trump does win there wont be enough popcorn in the world. The Grauniad will be a keep forever collectors item (assuming any copies last the day witbout spontaneously combusting).

    The support from ostensibly sane and intelligent posters on here for Trump really is stunning.
    Given that both candidates are unfit to be President, it's no wonder that the one who will provide more entertainment is getting some support.
    As unfashionable a view as it is on PBTrump.com - I think Hillary will make a great president. And, rather than being entertaining, I think having a straight-up racist in charge of the United States is actually a fucking waking nightmare. But you fill your boots lad. Enjoy.
    I agree. She is hard working, has loads of experience, is level headed and is good at working with people to get things done, which is an important skill for a US president who has prestige but limited executive power. Her big problem as a politician is that she is totally incapable of faking sincerity. Objectively I am not going to hold that against her if she does get to be president. She doesn't have a lot of empathy, but which president recently has? Donald Trump certainly doesn't.

    The blot on her copybook is the email server business. I guess it depends on how strict you are on that kind of dishonesty as to whether you think that damns her. Several of our prime ministers have been caught out on similar deviations from the truth.
    I think it's disqualifying, but YMMV.

    The other big problem is that she doesn't seem to have a reason to want to become president except for the nature of her genitals.
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    619619 Posts: 1,784


    new NBC/Survey Monkey poll: 27% of Rs, 72% of independents, 96% of Ds say Trump lacks personality/temperament to serve as president
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    kle4 said:

    In speech after speech at our Labour conference this week we have heard that although the occupant of Number 10 Downing Street has changed, the Tories haven't

    Amazing - the Labour conference feels like the Tories haven't changed.

    I kid, of course, the opposition is just using the tried and true 'time for a change' approach. Although given Cameron was able to win despite heading a government of 'austerity' and 'division' for five years, maybe Labour should push that, no, the Tories have changed, they're now even worse than Cameron.
    It scarcely matters what Labour says or does about the Tories right now. They could obtain video evidence of Theresa May sacrificing puppies and kittens to Satan, but come the election the Tories would still finish at least 9 or 10% clear on national vote share.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079

    FPT:

    FF43 said:

    Jobabob said:

    Jobabob said:

    Things are getting very heated here for an election that none of us get to vote in.

    If Trump does win there wont be enough popcorn in the world. The Grauniad will be a keep forever collectors item (assuming any copies last the day witbout spontaneously combusting).

    The support from ostensibly sane and intelligent posters on here for Trump really is stunning.
    Given that both candidates are unfit to be President, it's no wonder that the one who will provide more entertainment is getting some support.
    As unfashionable a view as it is on PBTrump.com - I think Hillary will make a great president. And, rather than being entertaining, I think having a straight-up racist in charge of the United States is actually a fucking waking nightmare. But you fill your boots lad. Enjoy.
    I agree. She is hard working, has loads of experience, is level headed and is good at working with people to get things done, which is an important skill for a US president who has prestige but limited executive power. Her big problem as a politician is that she is totally incapable of faking sincerity. Objectively I am not going to hold that against her if she does get to be president. She doesn't have a lot of empathy, but which president recently has? Donald Trump certainly doesn't.

    The blot on her copybook is the email server business. I guess it depends on how strict you are on that kind of dishonesty as to whether you think that damns her. Several of our prime ministers have been caught out on similar deviations from the truth.
    I think it's disqualifying, but YMMV.

    The other big problem is that she doesn't seem to have a reason to want to become president except for the nature of her genitals.
    Well, that is an irritant, but I cannot say someone's reasons for wanting to become president concern me a great deal, so long as that reason is not part of some elaborate scheme to do people harm. Hillary seems like a perfect example of an untrustworthy, uninspiring politician, but maybe I am unadventurous (my Brexit tendency being quite out of character in boldness), and I guess I am not as 'nothing to lose' as those Trump will be pitching to, but at least you'd know what you'd get with her.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Hinckley Point, Heathrow runway and HS 2.

    All very big infrastructure projects and all good for UK PLC (ex EU)

    Problem is they will never work and will be expensive monuments to a failed government.

    We are already seeing the seeds being planted for why the Tories will be ousted from power, we just don't know when.

    Strategic mistakes take time to reveal the extent of the disaster, and we all know that those projects will end up in disaster.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,189
    SeanT said:

    It is galling for lefties that the obvious result of their working classes voting for Brexit is a much more rightwing, free-wheeling, aggressive and expansionist Tory-max 18th century Britain, with lower corporate taxes, massive investment in infrastructure where it helps (southern England), the stoning of suspicious foreigners on Cheapside, an end to *restraint* on bankers bonuses, big fuck off nuclear subs to menace Belgium with incineration, plentiful gin, and so forth

    Actually on economic policy May is slightly to the left of Cameron and Osborne, having largely abandoned austerity and promised workers on business boards. She is certainly no fan of the excesses of capitalism
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    "Hillary didn't have the empathy"

    Pretty nailed on comment 10 minutes in.
  • Options
    FA took on Sam Allardyce despite warnings from The Sun over his links to an alleged £50k “bung” in 2009

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/1874162/fa-took-on-sam-allardyce-despite-warnings-from-the-sun-over-his-links-to-an-alleged-50k-bung-in-2009/
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,061
    RobD said:

    While I don't doubt it's easy to write the script, I seriously doubt that they failed to include software to discard multiple votes from the same IP.

    I seriously undoubt it. Here is the website TIME piggybacked their poll on: h ttp://www.playbuzz.com/TIME/vote-now-who-won-the-first-clinton-trump-debate . This is a site that's normally used to judge your favorite biscuit ("HobNob! Peek Freams Digestive! VOTE NOW!!!). It has less security features than a child's piggybank.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    For those bored with the US, moving on to Labour around 13 minutes in. No one's bored of Labour yet, right?
  • Options

    FPT:

    FF43 said:

    Jobabob said:

    Jobabob said:

    Things are getting very heated here for an election that none of us get to vote in.

    If Trump does win there wont be enough popcorn in the world. The Grauniad will be a keep forever collectors item (assuming any copies last the day witbout spontaneously combusting).

    The support from ostensibly sane and intelligent posters on here for Trump really is stunning.
    Given that both candidates are unfit to be President, it's no wonder that the one who will provide more entertainment is getting some support.
    As unfashionable a view as it is on PBTrump.com - I think Hillary will make a great president. And, rather than being entertaining, I think having a straight-up racist in charge of the United States is actually a fucking waking nightmare. But you fill your boots lad. Enjoy.
    I agree. She is hard working, has loads of experience, is level headed and is good at working with people to get things done, which is an important skill for a US president who has prestige but limited executive power. Her big problem as a politician is that she is totally incapable of faking sincerity. Objectively I am not going to hold that against her if she does get to be president. She doesn't have a lot of empathy, but which president recently has? Donald Trump certainly doesn't.

    The blot on her copybook is the email server business. I guess it depends on how strict you are on that kind of dishonesty as to whether you think that damns her. Several of our prime ministers have been caught out on similar deviations from the truth.
    I think it's disqualifying, but YMMV.

    The other big problem is that she doesn't seem to have a reason to want to become president except for the nature of her genitals.
    If you watch the 2008 debates against Obama, she was clearly the superior candidate at the time. I can understand her frustration at having lost out. That said, her record as Secretary of State left a lot to be desired.
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    FPT:

    FF43 said:

    Jobabob said:

    Jobabob said:

    Things are getting very heated here for an election that none of us get to vote in.

    If Trump does win there wont be enough popcorn in the world. The Grauniad will be a keep forever collectors item (assuming any copies last the day witbout spontaneously combusting).

    The support from ostensibly sane and intelligent posters on here for Trump really is stunning.
    Given that both candidates are unfit to be President, it's no wonder that the one who will provide more entertainment is getting some support.
    As unfashionable a view as it is on PBTrump.com - I think Hillary will make a great president. And, rather than being entertaining, I think having a straight-up racist in charge of the United States is actually a fucking waking nightmare. But you fill your boots lad. Enjoy.
    I agree. She is hard working, has loads of experience, is level headed and is good at working with people to get things done, which is an important skill for a US president who has prestige but limited executive power. Her big problem as a politician is that she is totally incapable of faking sincerity. Objectively I am not going to hold that against her if she does get to be president. She doesn't have a lot of empathy, but which president recently has? Donald Trump certainly doesn't.

    The blot on her copybook is the email server business. I guess it depends on how strict you are on that kind of dishonesty as to whether you think that damns her. Several of our prime ministers have been caught out on similar deviations from the truth.
    I think it's disqualifying, but YMMV.

    The other big problem is that she doesn't seem to have a reason to want to become president except for the nature of her genitals.
    Well, that is an irritant, but I cannot say someone's reasons for wanting to become president concern me a great deal, so long as that reason is not part of some elaborate scheme to do people harm. Hillary seems like a perfect example of an untrustworthy, uninspiring politician, but maybe I am unadventurous (my Brexit tendency being quite out of character in boldness), and I guess I am not as 'nothing to lose' as those Trump will be pitching to, but at least you'd know what you'd get with her.
    The McDonald's of politicians: you know exactly what you are going to get, it's just not good.

    The precedents for politicians gaining power without having a plan of what they want to use the power for are not happy. Exhibit A: J. Gordon Brown.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    viewcode said:

    RobD said:

    While I don't doubt it's easy to write the script, I seriously doubt that they failed to include software to discard multiple votes from the same IP.

    I seriously undoubt it. Here is the website TIME piggybacked their poll on: h ttp://www.playbuzz.com/TIME/vote-now-who-won-the-first-clinton-trump-debate . This is a site that's normally used to judge your favorite biscuit ("HobNob! Peek Freams Digestive! VOTE NOW!!!). It has less security features than a child's piggybank.
    As an IT illiterate, I sometimes get the impression those who do understand such things are like wizards who have to struggle to explain the fundamental forces of nature they can manipulate to the ignorant peasantry. I don't know how they handle the frustration.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    edited September 2016
    Bold from Kieran, acknowledging that using the word 'cult' is a bit loaded. Not sure about how a future challenger to Corbyn could build a profile such that they are not an unknown like Smith.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,189
    kle4 said:

    For those bored with the US, moving on to Labour around 13 minutes in. No one's bored of Labour yet, right?

    Fair to say I doubt many US political message boards are as awash with discussion of Corbyn as we have been of Trump!
  • Options
    RobD said:


    While I don't doubt it's easy to write the script, I seriously doubt that they failed to include software to discard multiple votes from the same IP. (yes, you could use your favorite bot net instead).

    I'm afraid you'd be wrong. I just voted twice in the Time poll. It took me all of 10 seconds to figure out how to get round their multiple vote blocker. It seems they aren't even checking that IP addresses are in the USA.

    Blocking multiple votes from the same IP generally isn't smart. There are lots of reasons why multiple individuals could share the same IP so you would be blocking valid votes. Cookies make more sense but won't stop anyone with technical knowledge that wants to cast multiple votes. They may, of course, have a throttle in place to stop one IP address registering lots of votes in a short space of time. I didn't check that.
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    Speedy said:

    Hinckley Point, Heathrow runway and HS 2.

    All very big infrastructure projects and all good for UK PLC (ex EU)

    Problem is they will never work and will be expensive monuments to a failed government.

    We are already seeing the seeds being planted for why the Tories will be ousted from power, we just don't know when.

    Strategic mistakes take time to reveal the extent of the disaster, and we all know that those projects will end up in disaster.
    Who is this 'we all know'. Over the last ten years I have travelled extensively worldwide and almost always used Heathrow and the need to expand it is obvious to those of us living outside the M25. Also Hinckley provides fuel security and HS2 will open up the north. Just having come back from Italy their high speed trains on dedicated track are amazing
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,061
    DavidL said:

    A demonstration of why this site is simply the best.

    It would only have been impressive if I had puzzled out step 6. Incidentally, all those steps are really real. I haven't coded in Javascript for over a decade so I am *way* rusty, but if anybody has a nephew/niece/child doing GCSE Computing, they should be able to puzzle it out. This is pretty simple stuff: you don't need a Russian troll farm.
  • Options
    viewcode said:

    DavidL said:

    A demonstration of why this site is simply the best.

    It would only have been impressive if I had puzzled out step 6. Incidentally, all those steps are really real. I haven't coded in Javascript for over a decade so I am *way* rusty, but if anybody has a nephew/niece/child doing GCSE Computing, they should be able to puzzle it out. This is pretty simple stuff: you don't need a Russian troll farm.
    Donald's 10 year old son?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,189
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    It is galling for lefties that the obvious result of their working classes voting for Brexit is a much more rightwing, free-wheeling, aggressive and expansionist Tory-max 18th century Britain, with lower corporate taxes, massive investment in infrastructure where it helps (southern England), the stoning of suspicious foreigners on Cheapside, an end to *restraint* on bankers bonuses, big fuck off nuclear subs to menace Belgium with incineration, plentiful gin, and so forth

    Actually on economic policy May is slightly to the left of Cameron and Osborne, having largely abandoned austerity and promised workers on business boards. She is certainly no fan of the excesses of capitalism
    The forces of Brexit are enormous, and will force her to the right. There is only one way for Britain to prosper post-Brexit, and it is by heading for the total free trading, Singapore option
    That won't really happen, Singapore is a city state of 5 million, the UK is a nation of 60 million. Your vision would work for an independent London but not for the Midlands and North too. State spending will still be needed for them and there will at least be some tariffs levied on goods and services traded between the EU and the UK even if May manages to get some single market access because of the free movement controls she will impose
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079

    kle4 said:

    FPT:

    FF43 said:

    Jobabob said:

    Jobabob said:

    Things are getting very heated here for an election that none of us get to vote in.

    If Trump does win there wont be enough popcorn in the world. The Grauniad will be a keep forever collectors item (assuming any copies last the day witbout spontaneously combusting).

    The support from ostensibly sane and intelligent posters on here for Trump really is stunning.
    Given that both candidates are unfit to be President, it's no wonder that the one who will provide more entertainment is getting some support.
    As unfashionable a view as it is on PBTrump.com - I think Hillary will make a great president. And, rather than being entertaining, I think having a straight-up racist in charge of the United States is actually a fucking waking nightmare. But you fill your boots lad. Enjoy.
    I ag
    The blot on her copybook is the email server business. I guess it depends on how strict you are on that kind of dishonesty as to whether you think that damns her. Several of our prime ministers have been caught out on similar deviations from the truth.
    I think it's disqualifying, but YMMV.

    The other big problem is that she doesn't seem to have a reason to want to become president except for the nature of her genitals.
    Well, that is an irritant, but I cannot say someone's reasons for wanting to become president concern me a great deal, so long as that reason is not part of some elaborate scheme to do people harm. Hillary seems like a perfect example of an untrustworthy, uninspiring politician, but maybe I am unadventurous (my Brexit tendency being quite out of character in boldness), and I guess I am not as 'nothing to lose' as those Trump will be pitching to, but at least you'd know what you'd get with her.
    The McDonald's of politicians: you know exactly what you are going to get, it's just not good.

    The precedents for politicians gaining power without having a plan of what they want to use the power for are not happy. Exhibit A: J. Gordon Brown.
    Well sure, but it's not like it would be hard to find precedents of people who did have a plan of what they want to use power for being awful too!
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    Haha


    "....Andy Burnham, insofar as you take what he says this week seriously"
  • Options
    Mid Life Crisis Mason wants us to print a big proportion of £500bn....if he gets the job with Jez, who is as thick as two short planks, we know what the policy will become.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited September 2016
    SeanT said:

    Speedy said:

    Hinckley Point, Heathrow runway and HS 2.

    All very big infrastructure projects and all good for UK PLC (ex EU)

    Problem is they will never work and will be expensive monuments to a failed government.

    We are already seeing the seeds being planted for why the Tories will be ousted from power, we just don't know when.

    Strategic mistakes take time to reveal the extent of the disaster, and we all know that those projects will end up in disaster.
    Hinckley. Maybe

    HS2, hmmm, really doubt it, we will all get used to it

    Heathrow, ridiculous. It's one of THE most successful airports in the world with two runways and five terminals, it will be even better with more space.

    http://your.heathrow.com/heathrow-wins-hat-trick-skytrax-awards-record-year/
    I see expanding an unworkable airport as simply expanding the size of the problem.

    It's better to have multiple smaller airports rather that a single large one just for reasons of traffic alone, not mentioning security.

    Heathrow is a perfect example of an airport that has gotten too big to operate properly.

    Constructing those large white elephant projects is something we used to joke about the Soviets (or even Mandelson with his Millenium Dome).
    Now we can joke about the Tories squandering almost 100 billion pounds on 3 projects of dubious nature.
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    Just watching the repeat of "Rome the Eternal City" on BBC4 which is dealing with Constantine converting Rome from paganism to Christianity. Emphasis was laid on Christ being transformed from a criminal executed on the cross to being an emperor installed on a throne in heaven, and the ragged disciples being turned into senators in splendid togas. And it struck me that this is what Tony Blair did to the old Labour party. The signs are that New Labour will not last as long as Christianity.

    I'm starting to think that Mr Blair's emphasis on triangulation, getting elected, staying on message & so on relied so heavily on the Labour 'brand' that Labour party members lost sight of the philosophy that produced the brand values.

    Then Mr Brown followed that up by decapitating all the tall poppies who might have been a threat to his position, and who carried the memory of moderate Labour philosophy.

    Thus we now have a generation of devoted Labour people - MPs and members - who cannot articulate what their branch of Labour stands for. It's been taken for granted for so long that they cannot now remember what it was.

    Hardly surprising they're helpless in the face of people like Mr Corbyn who does know what he wants Labour to stand for.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Mid Life Crisis Mason wants us to print a big proportion of £500bn....if he gets the job with Jez, who is as thick as two short planks, we know what the policy will become.

    It doesn't bear contemplating, does it? The value of the currency is heavily dependent on market confidence: if a future Government decides to print to spend, then we all know how much confidence people will have left in both it and in Sterling.

    We'd all end up carrying around bog rolls instead of wallets. The sheets thereon would be of more utility and greater value than our bank notes.
  • Options
    PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,274
    edited September 2016

    Mid Life Crisis Mason wants us to print a big proportion of £500bn....if he gets the job with Jez, who is as thick as two short planks, we know what the policy will become.

    Paul Mason puzzles me. As a reporter he gave some very lucid accounts of economic issue and things like the Greek crisis in 2015. Now he just seems wierd and deluded.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Mid Life Crisis Mason wants us to print a big proportion of £500bn....if he gets the job with Jez, who is as thick as two short planks, we know what the policy will become.

    Looking at May's white elephant projects we might need it, to pay the costs of her fiscal irresponsibility (oh the irony).
  • Options
    Speedy said:

    SeanT said:

    Speedy said:

    Hinckley Point, Heathrow runway and HS 2.

    All very big infrastructure projects and all good for UK PLC (ex EU)

    Problem is they will never work and will be expensive monuments to a failed government.

    We are already seeing the seeds being planted for why the Tories will be ousted from power, we just don't know when.

    Strategic mistakes take time to reveal the extent of the disaster, and we all know that those projects will end up in disaster.
    Hinckley. Maybe

    HS2, hmmm, really doubt it, we will all get used to it

    Heathrow, ridiculous. It's one of THE most successful airports in the world with two runways and five terminals, it will be even better with more space.

    http://your.heathrow.com/heathrow-wins-hat-trick-skytrax-awards-record-year/
    I see expanding an unworkable airport as simply expanding the size of the problem.

    It's better to have multiple smaller airports rather that a single large one just for reasons of traffic alone, not mentioning security.

    Heathrow is a perfect example of an airport that has gotten too big to operate properly.

    Constructing those large white elephant projects is something we used to joke about the Soviets (or even Mandelson with his Millenium Dome).
    Now we can joke about the Tories squandering almost 100 billion pounds on 3 projects of dubious nature.
    Heathrow works fine for those of us up North and HS2 is also for us up North. The idea of multiple smaller airports is just madness - Heathrow needs to become the Worlds largest hub airport
  • Options

    Mid Life Crisis Mason wants us to print a big proportion of £500bn....if he gets the job with Jez, who is as thick as two short planks, we know what the policy will become.

    Jez should also appoint the Mark Thomas Comedy Product as chief of staff.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,061
    Sunil! Wargames is on Spike! Leo McGarry and Michael Madsen are about to launch the missiles!

    (God, that dates me)
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    It is galling for lefties that the obvious result of their working classes voting for Brexit is a much more rightwing, free-wheeling, aggressive and expansionist Tory-max 18th century Britain, with lower corporate taxes, massive investment in infrastructure where it helps (southern England), the stoning of suspicious foreigners on Cheapside, an end to *restraint* on bankers bonuses, big fuck off nuclear subs to menace Belgium with incineration, plentiful gin, and so forth

    Actually on economic policy May is slightly to the left of Cameron and Osborne, having largely abandoned austerity and promised workers on business boards. She is certainly no fan of the excesses of capitalism
    The forces of Brexit are enormous, and will force her to the right. There is only one way for Britain to prosper post-Brexit, and it is by heading for the total free trading, Singapore option
    That won't really happen, Singapore is a city state of 5 million, the UK is a nation of 60 million. Your vision would work for an independent London but not for the Midlands and North too. State spending will still be needed for them and there will at least be some tariffs levied on goods and services traded between the EU and the UK even if May manages to get some single market access because of the free movement controls she will impose
    SeanT may be right - but for the wrong reasons.

    The only prosperous future for Brexit Britain may well be the free wheeling free trading capitalism. It is not what they are going to get though!

    Leaverstan is going to find out fairly shortly that in a globalised world they are at the back of the queue (to coin a phrase).
  • Options
    Honestly surprised at Heathrow. I can't decide whether May is doing something she genuinely thinks is the right thing; and/or she's being politically naive; and/or there's some Osbo-like triangulation going on here.

    Approving Heathrow will give the LibDems a 10% boost in a cluster of SW London/Thames Valley seats where they have a chance. Maidenhead is obviously safe but not so far from the affected areas that she's unaware.

    Or it might be an Osborne-style trap to manoeuvre the other parties into an ultimately damaging position. I can't see it (neither Labour under Corbyn, nor the LibDems on 8%, need any manoeuvring) but I am no Master Of The Dark (Political) Arts.

    I've discounted it as a vote-winning policy on its own - people who will benefit from Heathrow expansion largely already vote Conservative - but I can see it as a way to get more City donations to the Conservative Party. That does at least make some logical sense.

    Or, and perhaps most likely, it may mean that May is ----ing terrified of Brexit and is bending over to appease (to borrow SeanT's immortal imagery) the coke-snorting bankers in any way possible because she believes the economy will go to hell in a handbasket if she doesn't.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    PeterC said:

    Mid Life Crisis Mason wants us to print a big proportion of £500bn....if he gets the job with Jez, who is as thick as two short planks, we know what the policy will become.

    Paul Mason puzzles me. As a reporter he gave some very lucid accounts of economic issue and things like the Greek crisis in 2015. Now he just seems wierd and deluded.
    Pretty sure he says he is still a reporter only now he's allowed to tell the truth, so his apparently lucid accounts from before were, according to him I guess, nonsense.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    PeterC said:

    Mid Life Crisis Mason wants us to print a big proportion of £500bn....if he gets the job with Jez, who is as thick as two short planks, we know what the policy will become.

    Paul Mason puzzles me. As a reporter he gave some very lucid accounts of economic issue and things like the Greek crisis in 2015. Now he just seems wierd and deluded.
    I think he made company with SYRIZA for too long.
    Like John Reed covering the Russian Revolution.

    Goodnight.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,300
    edited September 2016
    The stat in the podcast where huge percentage of public don't think Jezzas cares about issues that affect me.....I am sure Wayne of the West Midlands #1 priority has been the FARC peace deal or banning all foreign arms deals...
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,061

    viewcode said:

    DavidL said:

    A demonstration of why this site is simply the best.

    It would only have been impressive if I had puzzled out step 6. Incidentally, all those steps are really real. I haven't coded in Javascript for over a decade so I am *way* rusty, but if anybody has a nephew/niece/child doing GCSE Computing, they should be able to puzzle it out. This is pretty simple stuff: you don't need a Russian troll farm.
    Donald's 10 year old son?
    :)
  • Options

    Honestly surprised at Heathrow. I can't decide whether May is doing something she genuinely thinks is the right thing; and/or she's being politically naive; and/or there's some Osbo-like triangulation going on here.

    Approving Heathrow will give the LibDems a 10% boost in a cluster of SW London/Thames Valley seats where they have a chance. Maidenhead is obviously safe but not so far from the affected areas that she's unaware.

    Or it might be an Osborne-style trap to manoeuvre the other parties into an ultimately damaging position. I can't see it (neither Labour under Corbyn, nor the LibDems on 8%, need any manoeuvring) but I am no Master Of The Dark (Political) Arts.

    I've discounted it as a vote-winning policy on its own - people who will benefit from Heathrow expansion largely already vote Conservative - but I can see it as a way to get more City donations to the Conservative Party. That does at least make some logical sense.

    Or, and perhaps most likely, it may mean that May is ----ing terrified of Brexit and is bending over to appease (to borrow SeanT's immortal imagery) the coke-snorting bankers in any way possible because she believes the economy will go to hell in a handbasket if she doesn't.

    It seems a new runway (or two) is needed and the choice can only be Heathrow or Gatwick. A decision must be made and it is right to choose the best one irrespective of local political problems.

    I understand most people near Heathrow are in favour due to the huge increase in jobs
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,189

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    It is galling for lefties that the obvious result of their working classes voting for Brexit is a much more rightwing, free-wheeling, aggressive and expansionist Tory-max 18th century Britain, with lower corporate taxes, massive investment in infrastructure where it helps (southern England), the stoning of suspicious foreigners on Cheapside, an end to *restraint* on bankers bonuses, big fuck off nuclear subs to menace Belgium with incineration, plentiful gin, and so forth

    Actually on economic policy May is slightly to the left of Cameron and Osborne, having largely abandoned austerity and promised workers on business boards. She is certainly no fan of the excesses of capitalism
    The forces of Brexit are enormous, and will force her to the right. There is only one way for Britain to prosper post-Brexit, and it is by heading for the total free trading, Singapore option
    That won't really happen, Singapore is a city state of 5 million, the UK is a nation of 60 million. Your vision would work for an independent London but not for the Midlands and North too. State spending will still be needed for them and there will at least be some tariffs levied on goods and services traded between the EU and the UK even if May manages to get some single market access because of the free movement controls she will impose
    SeanT may be right - but for the wrong reasons.

    The only prosperous future for Brexit Britain may well be the free wheeling free trading capitalism. It is not what they are going to get though!

    Leaverstan is going to find out fairly shortly that in a globalised world they are at the back of the queue (to coin a phrase).
    The free wheeling free trading capitalism future for Brexit Britain would actually be the worst for Leaverstan but the best for the City of London, so it may not be that bad a thing for them that it is unlikely to occur
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,061
    PeterC said:

    Mid Life Crisis Mason wants us to print a big proportion of £500bn....if he gets the job with Jez, who is as thick as two short planks, we know what the policy will become.

    Paul Mason puzzles me. As a reporter he gave some very lucid accounts of economic issue and things like the Greek crisis in 2015. Now he just seems wierd and deluded.
    Analysing the problem is one thing. Providing a solution is another.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Does Kieran post on PB sometimes?
  • Options
    AnneJGP said:

    Just watching the repeat of "Rome the Eternal City" on BBC4 which is dealing with Constantine converting Rome from paganism to Christianity. Emphasis was laid on Christ being transformed from a criminal executed on the cross to being an emperor installed on a throne in heaven, and the ragged disciples being turned into senators in splendid togas. And it struck me that this is what Tony Blair did to the old Labour party. The signs are that New Labour will not last as long as Christianity.

    I'm starting to think that Mr Blair's emphasis on triangulation, getting elected, staying on message & so on relied so heavily on the Labour 'brand' that Labour party members lost sight of the philosophy that produced the brand values.

    Then Mr Brown followed that up by decapitating all the tall poppies who might have been a threat to his position, and who carried the memory of moderate Labour philosophy.

    Thus we now have a generation of devoted Labour people - MPs and members - who cannot articulate what their branch of Labour stands for. It's been taken for granted for so long that they cannot now remember what it was.folk

    Hardly surprising they're helpless in the face of people like Mr Corbyn who does know what he wants Labour to stand for.
    equally can anyone suggest what it is that the tories stand for? Brexit (whatever that means)? paraphrasing Charles shortly after marrying Diana..

    suspect the majority of labour-esque folk (least those of a certain age) want a John Smith position. i.e. back to the 90s rather than bac to the 80s

    back to the future 3 is rubbish, mind
  • Options

    Honestly surprised at Heathrow. I can't decide whether May is doing something she genuinely thinks is the right thing; and/or she's being politically naive; and/or there's some Osbo-like triangulation going on here.

    Approving Heathrow will give the LibDems a 10% boost in a cluster of SW London/Thames Valley seats where they have a chance. Maidenhead is obviously safe but not so far from the affected areas that she's unaware.

    Or it might be an Osborne-style trap to manoeuvre the other parties into an ultimately damaging position. I can't see it (neither Labour under Corbyn, nor the LibDems on 8%, need any manoeuvring) but I am no Master Of The Dark (Political) Arts.

    I've discounted it as a vote-winning policy on its own - people who will benefit from Heathrow expansion largely already vote Conservative - but I can see it as a way to get more City donations to the Conservative Party. That does at least make some logical sense.

    Or, and perhaps most likely, it may mean that May is ----ing terrified of Brexit and is bending over to appease (to borrow SeanT's immortal imagery) the coke-snorting bankers in any way possible because she believes the economy will go to hell in a handbasket if she doesn't.

    It seems a new runway (or two) is needed and the choice can only be Heathrow or Gatwick. A decision must be made and it is right to choose the best one irrespective of local political problems.

    I understand most people near Heathrow are in favour due to the huge increase in jobs
    Not in the slightest - everyone around here is well off and contented. All that would happen would be the importation of thousands of cleaners. Heathrow should be bulldozed and turned into a wild-flower meadow.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    kle4 said:

    Haha


    "....Andy Burnham, insofar as you take what he says this week seriously"

    You are probably better off taking it seriously this week. It is next week when that will almost certainly be an error on your part ... ;)
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    It is galling for lefties that the obvious result of their working classes voting for Brexit is a much more rightwing, free-wheeling, aggressive and expansionist Tory-max 18th century Britain, with lower corporate taxes, massive investment in infrastructure where it helps (southern England), the stoning of suspicious foreigners on Cheapside, an end to *restraint* on bankers bonuses, big fuck off nuclear subs to menace Belgium with incineration, plentiful gin, and so forth

    Actually on economic policy May is slightly to the left of Cameron and Osborne, having largely abandoned austerity and promised workers on business boards. She is certainly no fan of the excesses of capitalism
    The forces of Brexit are enormous, and will force her to the right. There is only one way for Britain to prosper post-Brexit, and it is by heading for the total free trading, Singapore option
    That won't really happen, Singapore is a city state of 5 million, the UK is a nation of 60 million. Your vision would work for an independent London but not for the Midlands and North too. State spending will still be needed for them and there will at least be some tariffs levied on goods and services traded between the EU and the UK even if May manages to get some single market access because of the free movement controls she will impose
    Nope. Need to think big.

    Post-Brexit Britain needs to be Singapore times 10. Literally, in many ways.

    THE most advanced, competitive and capitalist economy on the planet.

    Singapore's GDP per capita is $60-80,000 or thereabouts (depending on how you measure it, and against our $40,000). If we can come close to them we would have the biggest and strongest overall economy in Europe, rivalling Germany.

    Maybe we need to introduce Singapore-style education to the UK.
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    It is galling for lefties that the obvious result of their working classes voting for Brexit is a much more rightwing, free-wheeling, aggressive and expansionist Tory-max 18th century Britain, with lower corporate taxes, massive investment in infrastructure where it helps (southern England), the stoning of suspicious foreigners on Cheapside, an end to *restraint* on bankers bonuses, big fuck off nuclear subs to menace Belgium with incineration, plentiful gin, and so forth

    Actually on economic policy May is slightly to the left of Cameron and Osborne, having largely abandoned austerity and promised workers on business boards. She is certainly no fan of the excesses of capitalism
    The forces of Brexit are enormous, and will force her to the right. There is only one way for Britain to prosper post-Brexit, and it is by heading for the total free trading, Singapore option
    That won't really happen, Singapore is a city state of 5 million, the UK is a nation of 60 million. Your vision would work for an independent London but not for the Midlands and North too. State spending will still be needed for them and there will at least be some tariffs levied on goods and services traded between the EU and the UK even if May manages to get some single market access because of the free movement controls she will impose
    Nope. Need to think big.

    Post-Brexit Britain needs to be Singapore times 10. Literally, in many ways.

    THE most advanced, competitive and capitalist economy on the planet.

    Singapore's GDP per capita is $60-80,000 or thereabouts (depending on how you measure it, and against our $40,000). If we can come close to them we would have the biggest and strongest overall economy in Europe, rivalling Germany.

    I, for one, salute our ethnic chinese overlords
  • Options

    Honestly surprised at Heathrow. I can't decide whether May is doing something she genuinely thinks is the right thing; and/or she's being politically naive; and/or there's some Osbo-like triangulation going on here.

    Approving Heathrow will give the LibDems a 10% boost in a cluster of SW London/Thames Valley seats where they have a chance. Maidenhead is obviously safe but not so far from the affected areas that she's unaware.

    Or it might be an Osborne-style trap to manoeuvre the other parties into an ultimately damaging position. I can't see it (neither Labour under Corbyn, nor the LibDems on 8%, need any manoeuvring) but I am no Master Of The Dark (Political) Arts.

    I've discounted it as a vote-winning policy on its own - people who will benefit from Heathrow expansion largely already vote Conservative - but I can see it as a way to get more City donations to the Conservative Party. That does at least make some logical sense.

    Or, and perhaps most likely, it may mean that May is ----ing terrified of Brexit and is bending over to appease (to borrow SeanT's immortal imagery) the coke-snorting bankers in any way possible because she believes the economy will go to hell in a handbasket if she doesn't.

    It seems a new runway (or two) is needed and the choice can only be Heathrow or Gatwick. A decision must be made and it is right to choose the best one irrespective of local political problems.

    I understand most people near Heathrow are in favour due to the huge increase in jobs
    Not in the slightest - everyone around here is well off and contented. All that would happen would be the importation of thousands of cleaners. Heathrow should be bulldozed and turned into a wild-flower meadow.
    That is funny to be fair
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    It is galling for lefties that the obvious result of their working classes voting for Brexit is a much more rightwing, free-wheeling, aggressive and expansionist Tory-max 18th century Britain, with lower corporate taxes, massive investment in infrastructure where it helps (southern England), the stoning of suspicious foreigners on Cheapside, an end to *restraint* on bankers bonuses, big fuck off nuclear subs to menace Belgium with incineration, plentiful gin, and so forth

    Actually on economic policy May is slightly to the left of Cameron and Osborne, having largely abandoned austerity and promised workers on business boards. She is certainly no fan of the excesses of capitalism
    The forces of Brexit are enormous, and will force her to the right. There is only one way for Britain to prosper post-Brexit, and it is by heading for the total free trading, Singapore option
    That won't really happen, Singapore is a city state of 5 million, the UK is a nation of 60 million. Your vision would work for an independent London but not for the Midlands and North too. State spending will still be needed for them and there will at least be some tariffs levied on goods and services traded between the EU and the UK even if May manages to get some single market access because of the free movement controls she will impose
    Nope. Need to think big.

    Post-Brexit Britain needs to be Singapore times 10. Literally, in many ways.

    THE most advanced, competitive and capitalist economy on the planet.

    Singapore's GDP per capita is $60-80,000 or thereabouts (depending on how you measure it, and against our $40,000). If we can come close to them we would have the biggest and strongest overall economy in Europe, rivalling Germany.

    Britain can not and should not be Singapore.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    It is galling for lefties that the obvious result of their working classes voting for Brexit is a much more rightwing, free-wheeling, aggressive and expansionist Tory-max 18th century Britain, with lower corporate taxes, massive investment in infrastructure where it helps (southern England), the stoning of suspicious foreigners on Cheapside, an end to *restraint* on bankers bonuses, big fuck off nuclear subs to menace Belgium with incineration, plentiful gin, and so forth

    Actually on economic policy May is slightly to the left of Cameron and Osborne, having largely abandoned austerity and promised workers on business boards. She is certainly no fan of the excesses of capitalism
    The forces of Brexit are enormous, and will force her to the right. There is only one way for Britain to prosper post-Brexit, and it is by heading for the total free trading, Singapore option
    That won't really happen, Singapore is a city state of 5 million, the UK is a nation of 60 million. Your vision would work for an independent London but not for the Midlands and North too. State spending will still be needed for them and there will at least be some tariffs levied on goods and services traded between the EU and the UK even if May manages to get some single market access because of the free movement controls she will impose
    Nope. Need to think big.

    Post-Brexit Britain needs to be Singapore times 10. Literally, in many ways.

    THE most advanced, competitive and capitalist economy on the planet.

    Singapore's GDP per capita is $60-80,000 or thereabouts (depending on how you measure it, and against our $40,000). If we can come close to them we would have the biggest and strongest overall economy in Europe, rivalling Germany.

    Britain can not and should not be Singapore.
    Why should not?
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    kle4 said:

    but at least you'd know what you'd get with her.

    I think that there are a whole lot of Bernie supporters who would disagree with that.
  • Options
    wasdwasd Posts: 276

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    It is galling for lefties that the obvious result of their working classes voting for Brexit is a much more rightwing, free-wheeling, aggressive and expansionist Tory-max 18th century Britain, with lower corporate taxes, massive investment in infrastructure where it helps (southern England), the stoning of suspicious foreigners on Cheapside, an end to *restraint* on bankers bonuses, big fuck off nuclear subs to menace Belgium with incineration, plentiful gin, and so forth

    Actually on economic policy May is slightly to the left of Cameron and Osborne, having largely abandoned austerity and promised workers on business boards. She is certainly no fan of the excesses of capitalism
    The forces of Brexit are enormous, and will force her to the right. There is only one way for Britain to prosper post-Brexit, and it is by heading for the total free trading, Singapore option
    That won't really happen, Singapore is a city state of 5 million, the UK is a nation of 60 million. Your vision would work for an independent London but not for the Midlands and North too. State spending will still be needed for them and there will at least be some tariffs levied on goods and services traded between the EU and the UK even if May manages to get some single market access because of the free movement controls she will impose
    SeanT may be right - but for the wrong reasons.

    The only prosperous future for Brexit Britain may well be the free wheeling free trading capitalism. It is not what they are going to get though!

    Leaverstan is going to find out fairly shortly that in a globalised world they are at the back of the queue (to coin a phrase).
    Expensive, unskilled labour doesn't have much of a future either in or out or Europe.

    (And to swing back to Labour's long term philosophical problems... they have two core voter blocks, one of which is massively relaxed about replacing the other with a nice clean efficient machine that won't bring *those* sorts of views into the house - that's a very difficult circle to square.)
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Speedy said:

    SeanT said:

    Speedy said:

    Hinckley Point, Heathrow runway and HS 2.

    All very big infrastructure projects and all good for UK PLC (ex EU)

    Problem is they will never work and will be expensive monuments to a failed government.

    We are already seeing the seeds being planted for why the Tories will be ousted from power, we just don't know when.

    Strategic mistakes take time to reveal the extent of the disaster, and we all know that those projects will end up in disaster.
    Hinckley. Maybe

    HS2, hmmm, really doubt it, we will all get used to it

    Heathrow, ridiculous. It's one of THE most successful airports in the world with two runways and five terminals, it will be even better with more space.

    http://your.heathrow.com/heathrow-wins-hat-trick-skytrax-awards-record-year/
    I see expanding an unworkable airport as simply expanding the size of the problem.

    It's better to have multiple smaller airports rather that a single large one just for reasons of traffic alone, not mentioning security.

    Heathrow is a perfect example of an airport that has gotten too big to operate properly.

    Constructing those large white elephant projects is something we used to joke about the Soviets (or even Mandelson with his Millenium Dome).
    Now we can joke about the Tories squandering almost 100 billion pounds on 3 projects of dubious nature.
    Heathrow works fine for those of us up North and HS2 is also for us up North. The idea of multiple smaller airports is just madness - Heathrow needs to become the Worlds largest hub airport
    Heathrow is pretty rubbish for me. My best hub is Schipol. There are 4 flights per day from Birmingham, and excellent, reliable onward connections with KLM.

    Turkish Airlines and Emirates from Brum are good too, with two flights per day each and onwards connections to points East.

    It is only when I fly to the States that I use Heathrow, because US immigration is so rubbish and prolonged.

    HS2 is no good to me either. The nearest stop is a 45 minute drive from Leicester, while existing trains get me to London in 70 minutes or less. Another white Elephant.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Speedy said:

    SeanT said:

    Speedy said:

    Hinckley Point, Heathrow runway and HS 2.

    All very big infrastructure projects and all good for UK PLC (ex EU)

    Problem is they will never work and will be expensive monuments to a failed government.

    We are already seeing the seeds being planted for why the Tories will be ousted from power, we just don't know when.

    Strategic mistakes take time to reveal the extent of the disaster, and we all know that those projects will end up in disaster.
    Hinckley. Maybe

    HS2, hmmm, really doubt it, we will all get used to it

    Heathrow, ridiculous. It's one of THE most successful airports in the world with two runways and five terminals, it will be even better with more space.

    http://your.heathrow.com/heathrow-wins-hat-trick-skytrax-awards-record-year/
    I see expanding an unworkable airport as simply expanding the size of the problem.

    It's better to have multiple smaller airports rather that a single large one just for reasons of traffic alone, not mentioning security.

    Heathrow is a perfect example of an airport that has gotten too big to operate properly.

    Constructing those large white elephant projects is something we used to joke about the Soviets (or even Mandelson with his Millenium Dome).
    Now we can joke about the Tories squandering almost 100 billion pounds on 3 projects of dubious nature.
    Heathrow works fine for those of us up North and HS2 is also for us up North. The idea of multiple smaller airports is just madness - Heathrow needs to become the Worlds largest hub airport
    It's because Heathrow and HS2 are not in Conwy.

    "Worlds largest hub airport" and the Soviets had the worlds largest computer chip.
    Size does not directly lead to better results, and Heathrow is already too large to operate properly.

    You can build the world's largest airport but the traffic of people trying to go to and from the airport will still make it the world's worst airport from customer service.

    And customer service in airports is the biggest problem with air travel, you already have to go through all those security checks and to battle with traffic to get to the airport in time, from a customer point of view airports are hell.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    AndyJS said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    It is galling for lefties that the obvious result of their working classes voting for Brexit is a much more rightwing, free-wheeling, aggressive and expansionist Tory-max 18th century Britain, with lower corporate taxes, massive investment in infrastructure where it helps (southern England), the stoning of suspicious foreigners on Cheapside, an end to *restraint* on bankers bonuses, big fuck off nuclear subs to menace Belgium with incineration, plentiful gin, and so forth

    Actually on economic policy May is slightly to the left of Cameron and Osborne, having largely abandoned austerity and promised workers on business boards. She is certainly no fan of the excesses of capitalism
    The forces of Brexit are enormous, and will force her to the right. There is only one way for Britain to prosper post-Brexit, and it is by heading for the total free trading, Singapore option
    That won't really happen, Singapore is a city state of 5 million, the UK is a nation of 60 million. Your vision would work for an independent London but not for the Midlands and North too. State spending will still be needed for them and there will at least be some tariffs levied on goods and services traded between the EU and the UK even if May manages to get some single market access because of the free movement controls she will impose
    Nope. Need to think big.

    Post-Brexit Britain needs to be Singapore times 10. Literally, in many ways.

    THE most advanced, competitive and capitalist economy on the planet.

    Singapore's GDP per capita is $60-80,000 or thereabouts (depending on how you measure it, and against our $40,000). If we can come close to them we would have the biggest and strongest overall economy in Europe, rivalling Germany.

    Britain can not and should not be Singapore.
    Why should not?
    My friends who live there paint an unpleasant picture. After a while the superficial clean, entrepreneurial and prosperous image gives way to a much darker authoritarian and repressed society.

    It is not something to aim for. We are better off as we are.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    AndyJS said:

    Does Kieran post on PB sometimes?

    I am sure he has done so.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Providing your population sample is truly representative of the voting sample.

    https://www.math.upenn.edu/~deturck/m170/wk4/lecture/case1.html is the standard - but think of it as a population with computers and a population without.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    I've had a really good experience at Heathrow. Term 2 is brilliant. Miles ahead of Gatwick.
  • Options

    Speedy said:

    SeanT said:

    Speedy said:

    Hinckley Point, Heathrow runway and HS 2.

    All very big infrastructure projects and all good for UK PLC (ex EU)

    Problem is they will never work and will be expensive monuments to a failed government.

    We are already seeing the seeds being planted for why the Tories will be ousted from power, we just don't know when.

    Strategic mistakes take time to reveal the extent of the disaster, and we all know that those projects will end up in disaster.
    Hinckley. Maybe

    HS2, hmmm, really doubt it, we will all get used to it

    Heathrow, ridiculous. It's one of THE most successful airports in the world with two runways and five terminals, it will be even better with more space.

    http://your.heathrow.com/heathrow-wins-hat-trick-skytrax-awards-record-year/
    I see expanding an unworkable airport as simply expanding the size of the problem.

    It's better to have multiple smaller airports rather that a single large one just for reasons of traffic alone, not mentioning security.

    Heathrow is a perfect example of an airport that has gotten too big to operate properly.

    Constructing those large white elephant projects is something we used to joke about the Soviets (or even Mandelson with his Millenium Dome).
    Now we can joke about the Tories squandering almost 100 billion pounds on 3 projects of dubious nature.
    Heathrow works fine for those of us up North and HS2 is also for us up North. The idea of multiple smaller airports is just madness - Heathrow needs to become the Worlds largest hub airport
    Heathrow is pretty rubbish for me. My best hub is Schipol. There are 4 flights per day from Birmingham, and excellent, reliable onward connections with KLM.

    Turkish Airlines and Emirates from Brum are good too, with two flights per day each and onwards connections to points East.

    It is only when I fly to the States that I use Heathrow, because US immigration is so rubbish and prolonged.

    HS2 is no good to me either. The nearest stop is a 45 minute drive from Leicester, while existing trains get me to London in 70 minutes or less. Another white Elephant.
    Again why should the north be the poor relatives. My family have used the Manchester Schipol route on occasions but in our case we were mainly travelling to New Zealand and Heathrow was our best choice. HS2 and HS3 are not for the south, they are to open up the north and are much needed.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,189
    edited September 2016
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    It is galling for lefties that the obvious result of their working classes voting for Brexit is a much more rightwing, free-wheeling, aggressive and expansionist Tory-max 18th century Britain, with lower corporate taxes, massive investment in infrastructure where it helps (southern England), the stoning of suspicious foreigners on Cheapside, an end to *restraint* on bankers bonuses, big fuck off nuclear subs to menace Belgium with incineration, plentiful gin, and so forth

    Actually on economic policy May is slightly to the left of Cameron and Osborne, having largely abandoned austerity and promised workers on business boards. She is certainly no fan of the excesses of capitalism
    The forces of Brexit are enormous, and will force her to the right. There is only one way for Britain to prosper post-Brexit, and it is by heading for the total free trading, Singapore option
    That won't really happen, Singapore is a city state of 5 million, the UK is a nation of 60 million. Your vision would work for an independent London but not for the Midlands and North too. State spending will still be needed for them and there will at least be some tariffs levied on goods and services traded between the EU and the UK even if May manages to get some single market access because of the free movement controls she will impose
    Nope. Need to think big.

    Post-Brexit Britain needs to be Singapore times 10. Literally, in many ways.

    THE most advanced, competitive and capitalist economy on the planet.

    Singapore's GDP per capita is $60-80,000 or thereabouts (depending on how you measure it, and against our $40,000). If we can come close to them we would have the biggest and strongest overall economy in Europe, rivalling Germany.

    The UK will never compete with Switzerland and the US on capitalism, let alone Singapore or the UAE. Nor will we ever have a chance of competing with Singapore on gdp per capita beyond inner London. We are not a socialist country but nor are we a laissez-faire capitalist country either, we are a middle of the road nation with the most socialist healthcare system in the developed world. I also doubt we will ever overtake Germany, they have more strength in depth in terms of manufacturing as well as a strong financial sector in Frankfurt if not as strong as that of London (though post Brexit they may catch up). May is looking to promote smaller and medium sized businesses as Germany does and have more selection in education as Germany does, she may be a British Merkel, she will not be a British Lee Kuan Yew
This discussion has been closed.