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  • rcs1000 said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    MP_SE said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Ruby Cramer
    Clinton skirts two questions about when Kaine knew about the diagnosis. Her answers here: https://t.co/9c3q9pd7Hr

    She sounds like a robot

    Shifty, very shifty.

    Clinton comes across as a pathological liar.
    I follow several in her press pool and watched a lot of her event clips - she's just awfully mechanical on stage. No warmth at all. Trump has his braggart faults, but he seems body temperature at least.

    Regarding the question of voting Trump vs Hillary - I'd vote Trump. What he says vs what he sticks with are two very different things. He's a NY liberal sort playing to the gallery IMO. He gets populism and riding the wave.

    I find everything about Hillary totally repellent - a liar, crook and machine politician. If she hadn't been married to the phenomenon that was Bill, she'd never get a look in. She's Cherie Blair with knob on.
    So, you'd vote for Trump over Hillary because you hope he's a liar.
    Whereas you know she is. What a mess there is no decent choice...
  • vikvik Posts: 159
    Emerson poll shows Trump in the lead in Colorado:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/co/colorado_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5974.html

    which makes this article in the Atlantic look utterly hilarious:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/the-state-that-fell-off-the-map/499529/

    quote: "Colorado was supposed to be a presidential battleground, but that now seems far-fetched.". Lol.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    It's a revolt against a particular form of liberalism, one that sees internationalism and the free movement of people and capital as the way forward, rather than a revolt against liberalism more generally.
    I see free movement of capital, goods and services as totally different to free movement of people.

    Why so many others do not, baffles me.
    However many Trump and Brexit backers do not. Working class voters in Ohio and the Black Country would be quite happy to have tariffs on imports from Mexico and China (indeed Farage made the argument the EU prevented restrictions being made on cheap Chinese goods)
    I think in America, protectionism is strong.

    In the UK, I don't think that's the case, but we are pragmatic and know dud ideological dogma when we see it. Particularly when it's fashionable on the continent.

    The almost theological worship of unadulterated free movement is that dogma today.
    Immigration is the biggest concern on both sides of the Atlantic but cheap foreign goods and offshoring of manufacturing jobs is also a concern too
    Cheap foreign goods I suspect are popular in the UK.

    The loss of manufacturing jobs is a much greater concern, but I think people blame competitiveness, British Governments, poor management, poor skills/education and lack of investment, much more than a lack of tariff walls and cheap imports.


  • A British comparison might be Cherie Blair as Labour leader versus Nigel Farage as Tory leader.

    Gets the flavour right. How would you vote?
    I think you know the answer to that!


  • A British comparison might be Cherie Blair as Labour leader versus Nigel Farage as Tory leader.

    Gets the flavour right. How would you vote?
    I think you know the answer to that!
    I'd want to know who the Johnson equivalent is:
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    vik said:

    Emerson poll shows Trump in the lead in Colorado:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/co/colorado_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5974.html

    which makes this article in the Atlantic look utterly hilarious:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/the-state-that-fell-off-the-map/499529/

    quote: "Colorado was supposed to be a presidential battleground, but that now seems far-fetched.". Lol.

    Poor journalism, writing what one wants to believe.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited September 2016

    rcs1000 said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    MP_SE said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Ruby Cramer
    Clinton skirts two questions about when Kaine knew about the diagnosis. Her answers here: https://t.co/9c3q9pd7Hr

    She sounds like a robot

    Shifty, very shifty.

    Clinton comes across as a pathological liar.
    I follow several in her press pool and watched a lot of her event clips - she's just awfully mechanical on stage. No warmth at all. Trump has his braggart faults, but he seems body temperature at least.

    Regarding the question of voting Trump vs Hillary - I'd vote Trump. What he says vs what he sticks with are two very different things. He's a NY liberal sort playing to the gallery IMO. He gets populism and riding the wave.

    I find everything about Hillary totally repellent - a liar, crook and machine politician. If she hadn't been married to the phenomenon that was Bill, she'd never get a look in. She's Cherie Blair with knob on.
    So, you'd vote for Trump over Hillary because you hope he's a liar.
    Whereas you know she is. What a mess there is no decent choice...
    TBH, you can't even really say well if only Cruz or Kasich had got selected...they were all f##king useless in different ways. And Rubio managed to destroy his image after being built up as the great Cuban hope for the GOP.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    PlatoSaid said:

    David Martosko
    ProTip: Don't run to the bathroom during a @HillaryClinton press availability. It'll be over before you flush.

    Again she did a whole four questions, it's a box tick nothing more.

    Given there has been no stories at all, no email leaks revelations, etc etc etc, no wonder the press pack had to resort to asking about the ending of the Good Wife...

    Could you ever imagine Nick Robinson standing up during GE campaign and saying Mrs May, what do you think about Sky Sports vs R4 coverage of the Test Matches...
    :lol:

    It's so incredibly unconvincing brown nosing. The Sky reporter Heather Something acts like Nicholas Witchell - it's painful. She read out some Clinton PR statement in the same sonorous tones.
  • CBC News: Chrystia Freeland heads on tour to save trade deal with European Union. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw-P3UgS4
  • John_M said:

    Discussions on immigration that spiral in on Australia are like discussions on health care that inevitably spiral in on the USA. Tedious.

    The UK has a complex economy, far higher population density and will require an appropriately complex system.

    Rather than a simple system? Not sure who you expect to disagree...
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    vik said:

    Emerson poll shows Trump in the lead in Colorado:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/co/colorado_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5974.html

    which makes this article in the Atlantic look utterly hilarious:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/the-state-that-fell-off-the-map/499529/

    quote: "Colorado was supposed to be a presidential battleground, but that now seems far-fetched.". Lol.

    He might be right eventually - but for the wrong candidate.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    It's a revolt against a particular form of liberalism, one that sees internationalism and the free movement of people and capital as the way forward, rather than a revolt against liberalism more generally.
    I see free movement of capital, goods and services as totally different to free movement of people.

    Why so many others do not, baffles me.
    However many Trump and Brexit backers do not. Working class voters in Ohio and the Black Country would be quite happy to have tariffs on imports from Mexico and China (indeed Farage made the argument the EU prevented restrictions being made on cheap Chinese goods)
    I think in America, protectionism is strong.

    In the UK, I don't think that's the case, but we are pragmatic and know dud ideological dogma when we see it. Particularly when it's fashionable on the continent.

    The almost theological worship of unadulterated free movement is that dogma today.
    Immigration is the biggest concern on both sides of the Atlantic but cheap foreign goods and offshoring of manufacturing jobs is also a concern too
    Cheap foreign goods I suspect are popular in the UK.

    The loss of manufacturing jobs is a much greater concern, but I think people blame competitiveness, British Governments, poor management, poor skills/education and lack of investment, much more than a lack of tariff walls and cheap imports.
    Not when they are perceived as destroying UK industry they are not. People will blame a whole host of factors but the Brexit vote was primarily a vote against immigration and against the damage globalisation was seen to have done
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,930

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    It's a revolt against a particular form of liberalism, one that sees internationalism and the free movement of people and capital as the way forward, rather than a revolt against liberalism more generally.
    I see free movement of capital, goods and services as totally different to free movement of people.

    Why so many others do not, baffles me.
    However many Trump and Brexit backers do not. Working class voters in Ohio and the Black Country would be quite happy to have tariffs on imports from Mexico and China (indeed Farage made the argument the EU prevented restrictions being made on cheap Chinese goods)
    I think in America, protectionism is strong.

    In the UK, I don't think that's the case, but we are pragmatic and know dud ideological dogma when we see it. Particularly when it's fashionable on the continent.

    The almost theological worship of unadulterated free movement is that dogma today.
    Immigration is the biggest concern on both sides of the Atlantic but cheap foreign goods and offshoring of manufacturing jobs is also a concern too
    Cheap foreign goods I suspect are popular in the UK.

    The loss of manufacturing jobs is a much greater concern, but I think people blame competitiveness, British Governments, poor management, poor skills/education and lack of investment, much more than a lack of tariff walls and cheap imports.
    Very few consumer goods are made in the UK. We make music, movies, aero engines, some precision engineering, and quite a lot of cars.

    But the clothes you wear, the computer you use, the pills you pop, the TV you watch, etc: they're all imported.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    It's a bit more nuanced than that, I think. The post-War Liberal ascendency, which includes the EU as one of its projects, is seen to have failed. People think they have featherbedded immigrants and the bankers while they struggle and lose out year on year. They don't like globalisation nor being told what to think by foreigners and money men.

    The problem is that if you want to be successful, globalisation is the only game in town. There is literally no alternative to the EU (which doesn't necessarily mean it will work, of course).
    Yes, it is quite clear that Australia doesn't exist -

    1) Only countries that accept unrestricted immigration can succeed.
    2) Only countries in the EU can succeed.
    3) Australia is successful, restricts immigration and isn't in the EU. And isn't a Nazi hellhole...
    4) It's supposed to be a law abiding country founded by importing criminals, and they are supposed to have a mammal with the body of a beaver, the mouth of a duck. Which lays eggs...

    Yes, it is high time to put an end to the Australia story. Nonsense for children....
    To be clear, I voted Remain. I understand - I think - why people voted Leave even if I believe their reasons to be counter-productive.

    Australia has higher immigration than the UK does in the EU. And I don't believe most people do make the distinction between "controlled" but higher immigration and "out of control" but actually lower immigration. They see the people on their streets.

    And, PS, Australia also has politicians who claim Australia is being swamped by immigration. You don't need the EU as a bogeyman for that.
    Also, of course, there is freedom of labour between Australia and New Zealand.
    There is a bit of a difference between free movement between Australia and New Zealand and free movement between Poland and the UK and Mexico and the USA
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Five Rights
    HRC's health lies are so transparent she's making fools out of her supporters.
    From well before the "pneumonia": https://t.co/Sc1uqodvV3
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,930
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    It's a bit more nuanced than that, I think. The post-War Liberal ascendency, which includes the EU as one of its projects, is seen to have failed. People think they have featherbedded immigrants and the bankers while they struggle and lose out year on year. They don't like globalisation nor being told what to think by foreigners and money men.

    The problem is that if you want to be successful, globalisation is the only game in town. There is literally no alternative to the EU (which doesn't necessarily mean it will work, of course).
    Yes, it is quite clear that Australia doesn't exist -

    1) Only countries that accept unrestricted immigration can succeed.
    2) Only countries in the EU can succeed.
    3) Australia is successful, restricts immigration and isn't in the EU. And isn't a Nazi hellhole...
    4) It's supposed to be a law abiding country founded by importing criminals, and they are supposed to have a mammal with the body of a beaver, the mouth of a duck. Which lays eggs...

    Yes, it is high time to put an end to the Australia story. Nonsense for children....
    To be clear, I voted Remain. I understand - I think - why people voted Leave even if I believe their reasons to be counter-productive.

    Australia has higher immigration than the UK does in the EU. And I don't believe most people do make the distinction between "controlled" but higher immigration and "out of control" but actually lower immigration. They see the people on their streets.

    And, PS, Australia also has politicians who claim Australia is being swamped by immigration. You don't need the EU as a bogeyman for that.
    Also, of course, there is freedom of labour between Australia and New Zealand.
    There is a bit of a difference between free movement between Australia and New Zealand and free movement between Poland and the UK and Mexico and the USA
    Oh I agree, I'm just pointing out that freedom of movement between neighbouring countries is not that uncommon.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Ohio has only voted for the losing candidate twice since 1896, in 1944 and 1960.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,417
    PlatoSaid said:

    Five Rights
    HRC's health lies are so transparent she's making fools out of her supporters.
    From well before the "pneumonia": https://t.co/Sc1uqodvV3

    Can someone tell me what these great lies are?
    I get it she lied about emails. And there was that sniper incident against Obama.
    But how is she even in the same league of lying as Trump?
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited September 2016
    Make of this as you choose by former Clinton Secret Service Agent

    "That is when all the other agents, especially this young jet-black haired one, convene to shield her from view completely. We call this “collapsing on” the protectee. They left in such a hurry to get her from the public view that her shoe—which she could not retain—was left behind.

    Here’s what was very disturbing to me: after the medical episode, she went to her daughter’s apartment and not to an Emergency Room. Secret Service procedure for each detail dictates that everyone knows which hospital to go to depending on the event - heart failure, gunshot, you name it. It is very revealing that, whatever is wrong with her, she is being treated by her own private medical specialists in secret and, judging by the ballet-like reaction by her detail, they have dealt with this before.

    http://ijr.com/opinion/2016/09/260018-protected-hillary-clinton-secret-service-heres-noticed-fainting-video/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    It's a bit more nuanced than that, I think. The post-War Liberal ascendency, which includes the EU as one of its projects, is seen to have failed. People think they have featherbedded immigrants and the bankers while they struggle and lose out year on year. They don't like globalisation nor being told what to think by foreigners and money men.

    The problem is that if you want to be successful, globalisation is the only game in town. There is literally no alternative to the EU (which doesn't necessarily mean it will work, of course).
    Yes, it is quite clear that Australia doesn't exist -

    1) Only countries that accept unrestricted immigration can succeed.
    2) Only countries in the EU can succeed.
    3) Australia is successful, restricts immigration and isn't in the EU. And isn't a Nazi hellhole...
    4) It's supposed to be a law abiding country founded by importing criminals, and they are supposed to have a mammal with the body of a beaver, the mouth of a duck. Which lays eggs...

    Yes, it is high time to put an end to the Australia story. Nonsense for children....
    85% of Australia's exports are raw materials. I'm not sure that's a model we can follow.

    http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/aus/all/show/2012/
    Looks like we imported $191 Bn more than we exported in 2014..
    Thinking through what Trumpism means for trade is an interesting exercise.

    If Trump manages to regain heavy industry for the USA it does have a few implications:

    1) fewer Chinese exports to the USA.

    2) fewer US gilts being bought by China

    3) consequent financial issues for the USA

    4) Chinese steel and other products dumped on world markets, bringing either tarrifs or destruction of other nations industries.

    5) reduced demand for commodities for China, hitting primary exporters like Australia.

    It is hard to see who benefits.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,417
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    It's a revolt against a particular form of liberalism, one that sees internationalism and the free movement of people and capital as the way forward, rather than a revolt against liberalism more generally.
    I see free movement of capital, goods and services as totally different to free movement of people.

    Why so many others do not, baffles me.
    However many Trump and Brexit backers do not. Working class voters in Ohio and the Black Country would be quite happy to have tariffs on imports from Mexico and China (indeed Farage made the argument the EU prevented restrictions being made on cheap Chinese goods)
    I think in America, protectionism is strong.

    In the UK, I don't think that's the case, but we are pragmatic and know dud ideological dogma when we see it. Particularly when it's fashionable on the continent.

    The almost theological worship of unadulterated free movement is that dogma today.
    Immigration is the biggest concern on both sides of the Atlantic but cheap foreign goods and offshoring of manufacturing jobs is also a concern too
    Cheap foreign goods I suspect are popular in the UK.

    The loss of manufacturing jobs is a much greater concern, but I think people blame competitiveness, British Governments, poor management, poor skills/education and lack of investment, much more than a lack of tariff walls and cheap imports.
    Not when they are perceived as destroying UK industry they are not. People will blame a whole host of factors but the Brexit vote was primarily a vote against immigration and against the damage globalisation was seen to have done
    Okay- but do those same people seek out made in Britain labels and buy British wherever they can even if it costs a lot more?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    Is the immigration of Australia actually lower than here ?
    Or is that on a per population basis. I'd be surprised if it was on an absolute basis, and even more so on a people per square metre basis.

    I'd guess the livable area of Australia to be higher than that of the UK (Melbourne -> Brisbane coast) & Perth, even though most of it is very inhospitable
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    People often don't realise how left-wing Alastair Campbell is.
  • The National: Tata Steel merger worries workers with a precedent. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwxIaugC4
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    Alistair Campbell says he wishes the New Labour government had abolished all existing grammars
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited September 2016
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair Campbell says he wishes the New Labour government had abolished all existing grammars

    His wife is a "education campaigner". Totally against basically every Gove reform.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair Campbell says he wishes the New Labour government had abolished all existing grammars

    His wife is a "education campaigner". Totally against basically every Gove reform.
    The second word is certainly accurate, not quite so sure about the first!
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    rcs1000 said:



    Very few consumer goods are made in the UK. We make music, movies, aero engines, some precision engineering, and quite a lot of cars.

    But the clothes you wear, the computer you use, the pills you pop, the TV you watch, etc: they're all imported.

    Yes of course, they are (well, maybe not all the clothes the very wealthy wear - some tailors are still making a damn good living) and that isn't going to change. We are not going to see TV factories re-open in the UK, for example.

    However, all those imports have to be paid for and as you, Mr. Robert, frequently post on these pages the UK cannot keep flogging off the family silver indefinitely. If import substitution isn't going to happen on a large enough scale, and I do not think it can, then we better do something about hugely increasing our exports.

    That thought just brings us back to "competitiveness, British Governments, poor management, poor skills/education and lack of investment" as per Mr. Royale's post.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    It's a bit more nuanced than that, I think. The post-War Liberal ascendency, which includes the EU as one of its projects, is seen to have failed. People think they have featherbedded immigrants and the bankers while they struggle and lose out year on year. They don't like globalisation nor being told what to think by foreigners and money men.

    The problem is that if you want to be successful, globalisation is the only game in town. There is literally no alternative to the EU (which doesn't necessarily mean it will work, of course).
    Yes, it is quite clear that Australia doesn't exist -

    1) Only countries that accept unrestricted immigration can succeed.
    2) Only countries in the EU can succeed.
    3) Australia is successful, restricts immigration and isn't in the EU. And isn't a Nazi hellhole...
    4) It's supposed to be a law abiding country founded by importing criminals, and they are supposed to have a mammal with the body of a beaver, the mouth of a duck. Which lays eggs...

    Yes, it is high time to put an end to the Australia story. Nonsense for children....
    To be clear, I voted Remain. I understand - I think - why people voted Leave even if I believe their reasons to be counter-productive.

    Australia has higher immigration than the UK does in the EU. And I don't believe most people do make the distinction between "controlled" but higher immigration and "out of control" but actually lower immigration. They see the people on their streets.

    And, PS, Australia also has politicians who claim Australia is being swamped by immigration. You don't need the EU as a bogeyman for that.
    Also, of course, there is freedom of labour between Australia and New Zealand.
    There is a bit of a difference between free movement between Australia and New Zealand and free movement between Poland and the UK and Mexico and the USA
    Oh I agree, I'm just pointing out that freedom of movement between neighbouring countries is not that uncommon.
    Indeed and had expansion of the EU to Eastern Europe never happened and Blair put a time delay on movement we would probably still be in the EU
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    edited September 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    Is the immigration of Australia actually lower than here ?
    Or is that on a per population basis. I'd be surprised if it was on an absolute basis, and even more so on a people per square metre basis.

    I'd guess the livable area of Australia to be higher than that of the UK (Melbourne -> Brisbane coast) & Perth, even though most of it is very inhospitable

    The livable area is much much larger. The State of Victoria alone is not far off the size of the UK from memory, and 90 of that is habitable I'd guess.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    rkrkrk said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    It's a revolt against a particular form of liberalism, one that sees internationalism and the free movement of people and capital as the way forward, rather than a revolt against liberalism more generally.
    I see free movement of capital, goods and services as totally different to free movement of people.

    Why so many others do not, baffles me.
    However many Trump and Brexit backers do not. Working class voters in Ohio and the Black Country would be quite happy to have tariffs on imports from Mexico and China (indeed Farage made the argument the EU prevented restrictions being made on cheap Chinese goods)
    I think in America, protectionism is strong.

    In the UK, I don't think that's the case, but we are pragmatic and know dud ideological dogma when we see it. Particularly when it's fashionable on the continent.

    The almost theological worship of unadulterated free movement is that dogma today.
    Immigration is the biggest concern on both sides of the Atlantic but cheap foreign goods and offshoring of manufacturing jobs is also a concern too
    Cheap foreign goods I suspect are popular in the UK.

    The loss of manufacturing jobs is a much greater concern, but I think people blame competitiveness, British Governments, poor management, poor skills/education and lack of investment, much more than a lack of tariff walls and cheap imports.
    Not when they are perceived as destroying UK industry they are not. People will blame a whole host of factors but the Brexit vote was primarily a vote against immigration and against the damage globalisation was seen to have done
    Okay- but do those same people seek out made in Britain labels and buy British wherever they can even if it costs a lot more?
    Some may but of course it is the issue of cheaper foreign imports which makes British goods relatively more expensive
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    Kudos to Quentin Letts for sticking up for grammars as not one politician on the panel tonight is!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    Lib Dem GAIN Tupton

    LD 340
    Lab 308
    Con 155
    UKIP 79
  • PlatoSaid said:
    And still no sign that the black swan event of Johnson making the debate threshold will happen.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    QT audience seems to be out of touch with the general public on grammar schools.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited September 2016
    welshowl said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Is the immigration of Australia actually lower than here ?
    Or is that on a per population basis. I'd be surprised if it was on an absolute basis, and even more so on a people per square metre basis.

    I'd guess the livable area of Australia to be higher than that of the UK (Melbourne -> Brisbane coast) & Perth, even though most of it is very inhospitable

    The lovable are is much much larger. The State of Victoria alone is not far off the size of the UK from memory, and 90 of that is habitable I'd guess.
    Though that is not where the immigration is. Australia is one of the most urbanised countries (possibly more accurately sub-urbanised). Immigrants to Australia almost all go to a handful of major cities, and indeed country towns are often depopulating. Farmland in much of Victoria is hard to sell as very difficult to make a living from.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Off topic, I think the EU are absolutely correct to take a no compromise line with May.

    they see a weak, dithering vain person who hid behind the sofa when Brexit was being fought and will be very easily intimidated. I see nothing in her premiership so far to contradict their view.

    Theresa May is quite capable of coming back from the negotiations with a shockingly bad deal which she makes a desperate attempt to defend, only for all hell to break loose in her party and the country.

    Perhaps that's what the Eurocrats intend.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    @Sean_F @WilliamGlenn Agreed. I understand why an economic liberal could want to leave the EU. How any economic liberal could vote Leave after the campaign and it became clear what sort of cultural phenomenon it was was a beyond me. I fear the Hannan wing of Brexiters will find themselves as Dr Frankenstein on this. Though I accept it's too early to tell.

    Mr Submarine, you seem to follow the same logic (sic) as Mr Meeks, to whit, because some 'deplorables' are voting one way on a binary issue, no good sane people could vote the same way. For me, if the liberal economic argument suggests vote leave, that is how I am going to vote, regardless of how the deplorables vote.
  • AndyJS said:

    QT audience seems to be out of touch with the general public on grammar schools.

    Corrected for you....
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    welshowl said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Is the immigration of Australia actually lower than here ?
    Or is that on a per population basis. I'd be surprised if it was on an absolute basis, and even more so on a people per square metre basis.

    I'd guess the livable area of Australia to be higher than that of the UK (Melbourne -> Brisbane coast) & Perth, even though most of it is very inhospitable

    The lovable are is much much larger. The State of Victoria alone is not far off the size of the UK from memory, and 90 of that is habitable I'd guess.
    Though that is not where the immigration is. Australia is one of the most urbanised countries (possibly more accurately sub-urbanised). Immigrants to Australia almost all go to a handful of major cities, and indeed country towns are often depopulating. Farmland in much of Victoria is hard to sell as very difficult to make a living from.
    Indeed. I was being geographical in the sense that "life is possible there" in a way that it's not in the Sahara or the Himalayas, but yes you are of course right. There's still an awful lot of it mind!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    AndyJS said:

    QT audience seems to be out of touch with the general public on grammar schools.

    Indeed, a plurality back new grammars according to yougov https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/15/two-thirds-people-would-send-their-child-grammar-s/
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited September 2016
    Britain Elects
    Blakelaw (Newcastle upon Tyne) result:
    LAB: 43.2% (-20.0)
    LDEM: 28.1% (+19.0)
    UKIP: 19.1% (+3.0)
    CON: 5.1% (-2.4)
    GRN: 4.5% (+0.5)

    Tupton (North East Derbyshire) result:
    LDEM: 38.3% (+38.3)
    LAB: 34.7% (-32.4)
    CON: 17.5% (-15.4)
    UKIP: 8.9% (+8.9)
    BPP: 0.7% (+0.7)
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Newcastle Blakelaw 20% swing Lab to LD

    Lab 1004
    LD 654
    UKIP 443
    Con 119
    Green 105
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,119
    welshowl said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Is the immigration of Australia actually lower than here ?
    Or is that on a per population basis. I'd be surprised if it was on an absolute basis, and even more so on a people per square metre basis.

    I'd guess the livable area of Australia to be higher than that of the UK (Melbourne -> Brisbane coast) & Perth, even though most of it is very inhospitable

    The livable area is much much larger. The State of Victoria alone is not far off the size of the UK from memory, and 90 of that is habitable I'd guess.
    The point is not that their immigration level is lower - it is that the non-existent Australians control immigration. Indeed (if they existed), much of this control was conceived as protecting the domestic labour force - rather than attempting to reduce wages via immigration.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    AndyJS said:

    QT audience seems to be out of touch with the general public on grammar schools.

    It all depends on how the question is put.

    Remember why the Grammars were abolished? It was very much a bipartisan movement, and a popular one.

    Grammars should only be allowed where a plebiscite of the affected population all vote for them. It should not be dictated either by central government or by a priveliged few.
  • Anna Soubry tells John McDonnell he's a nasty piece of work.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Is the immigration of Australia actually lower than here ?
    Or is that on a per population basis. I'd be surprised if it was on an absolute basis, and even more so on a people per square metre basis.

    I'd guess the livable area of Australia to be higher than that of the UK (Melbourne -> Brisbane coast) & Perth, even though most of it is very inhospitable

    Australia has easily inhabitable land of about 760,000 Sq Km. That is about 10% of its total area. By comparison the total area of the UK, habitable and uninhabitable is about 240,000 sq Km. So the readily inhabitable area of Oz is already 3 times the area of the whole of the UK.

    Their population currently is about 1/3rd of the UK.

    They have a very tightly controlled immigration system and the reason they have so many immigrants at the moment is they want them. Unlike the UK inside the EU, if they decide they don't want them any more they can stop importing them.

    Personally I am in favour of freedom of movement which is why I wanted the EFTA solution. But people dismissing Australia as a model because it currently has high immigration rates really are being very dumb indeed.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    taffys said:

    Off topic, I think the EU are absolutely correct to take a no compromise line with May.

    they see a weak, dithering vain person who hid behind the sofa when Brexit was being fought and will be very easily intimidated. I see nothing in her premiership so far to contradict their view.

    Theresa May is quite capable of coming back from the negotiations with a shockingly bad deal which she makes a desperate attempt to defend, only for all hell to break loose in her party and the country.

    Perhaps that's what the Eurocrats intend.

    That's what Cameron did. It didn't end well, I recall.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    edited September 2016

    AndyJS said:

    QT audience seems to be out of touch with the general public on grammar schools.

    Corrected for you....
    They have now moved on from new grammars, which BBC executives clearly believe nobody but the most reactionary old fogies can back (actually 38% of the voters), to the future of the Labour Party and a head to head between Campbell and McDonnell (with the odd Soubry intervention) which is obviously far more relevant to the majority of the country (actually 30% at the last election and falling!)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Does anyone have any details of the attempt to shoot Trump
    NYPD have closed down this part of ny and am in pain here
  • Charles said:

    Does anyone have any details of the attempt to shoot Trump
    NYPD have closed down this part of ny and am in pain here

    There's nothing on Twitter. Is that gossip from the scene?
  • welshowl said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Is the immigration of Australia actually lower than here ?
    Or is that on a per population basis. I'd be surprised if it was on an absolute basis, and even more so on a people per square metre basis.

    I'd guess the livable area of Australia to be higher than that of the UK (Melbourne -> Brisbane coast) & Perth, even though most of it is very inhospitable

    The livable area is much much larger. The State of Victoria alone is not far off the size of the UK from memory, and 90 of that is habitable I'd guess.
    Which considering we have inhospitable mountains too probably puts us about equivalent for landspace and with a multitude of their population. When I lived there houses could be cheaper and three times the size.
  • Charles said:

    Does anyone have any details of the attempt to shoot Trump
    NYPD have closed down this part of ny and am in pain here

    Huh...What...When...Where...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    PlatoSaid said:

    Britain Elects
    Blakelaw (Newcastle upon Tyne) result:
    LAB: 43.2% (-20.0)
    LDEM: 28.1% (+19.0)
    UKIP: 19.1% (+3.0)
    CON: 5.1% (-2.4)
    GRN: 4.5% (+0.5)

    Tupton (North East Derbyshire) result:
    LDEM: 38.3% (+38.3)
    LAB: 34.7% (-32.4)
    CON: 17.5% (-15.4)
    UKIP: 8.9% (+8.9)
    BPP: 0.7% (+0.7)

    Last time round Tupton must have been:

    Lab 67.1
    Con 32.9
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Charles said:

    Does anyone have any details of the attempt to shoot Trump
    NYPD have closed down this part of ny and am in pain here

    150 million people helping with enquiries?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,450
    Question Time panel extraordinarily skewed towards REMAIN (as was)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    edited September 2016
    GIN1138 said:

    Question Time panel extraordinarily skewed towards REMAIN (as was)

    Who is the rightwing politician this time :) ?
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Anna Soubry tells John McDonnell he's a nasty piece of work.

    Pot kettle black
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    rkrkrk said:



    Okay- but do those same people seek out made in Britain labels and buy British wherever they can even if it costs a lot more?

    I don't support Mr. Hyfud's argument here but I do buy British whenever I can. In particular I will not buy foreign meat (save specialist sausages, where there is no British equivalent) even though they are generally more expensive than imported equivalents (e.g. locally produced lamb is about 50% more expensive than stuff that has been frozen and shipped halfway around the world).

    Partly my decision is made on the basis on animal welfare considerations (other countries standards are lower than our own), partly on the grounds of quality (the difference between prime Sussex Lamb and New Zealand lamb is huge and if I have a complaint I can bend the farmer's ear in the pub on Sunday lunchtime) but mostly I just want to support British Farmers who are struggling.

    When I couldn't afford the premium for British meat I went without or bought cheaper cuts that I could afford.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Question Time panel extraordinarily skewed towards REMAIN (as was)

    "Question Time is like doing a jigsaw: a pointless way to pass the time until you die!"
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Charles said:

    Does anyone have any details of the attempt to shoot Trump
    NYPD have closed down this part of ny and am in pain here

    Nothing in my timeline so far
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Charles said:

    Does anyone have any details of the attempt to shoot Trump
    NYPD have closed down this part of ny and am in pain here

    Is Trump alive ?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    welshowl said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Is the immigration of Australia actually lower than here ?
    Or is that on a per population basis. I'd be surprised if it was on an absolute basis, and even more so on a people per square metre basis.

    I'd guess the livable area of Australia to be higher than that of the UK (Melbourne -> Brisbane coast) & Perth, even though most of it is very inhospitable

    The livable area is much much larger. The State of Victoria alone is not far off the size of the UK from memory, and 90 of that is habitable I'd guess.
    Which considering we have inhospitable mountains too probably puts us about equivalent for landspace and with a multitude of their population. When I lived there houses could be cheaper and three times the size.
    Median house prices in Sydney have just dropped below AUD 1 million. Roughly £569 000.

    Makes London seem a bargain...

    http://www.domain.com.au/news/sydneys-median-house-price-falls-below-1-million-domain-group-20160420-go9kie/
  • Nothing on the_donald subreddit, which is where rabid Trumpeters usually gather: https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/new/ (warning, autism)

    LibDems winning here, anyone?
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    MTimT said:

    @Sean_F @WilliamGlenn Agreed. I understand why an economic liberal could want to leave the EU. How any economic liberal could vote Leave after the campaign and it became clear what sort of cultural phenomenon it was was a beyond me. I fear the Hannan wing of Brexiters will find themselves as Dr Frankenstein on this. Though I accept it's too early to tell.

    Mr Submarine, you seem to follow the same logic (sic) as Mr Meeks, to whit, because some 'deplorables' are voting one way on a binary issue, no good sane people could vote the same way. For me, if the liberal economic argument suggests vote leave, that is how I am going to vote, regardless of how the deplorables vote.
    Quite so. I've never seen my vote in either a GE or a referendum as requiring me to take a moral stand. The risk of Brexit is now entirely down to how well the government executes it. I'm sure that whatever happens I'll be disappointed.
  • Speedy said:

    Charles said:

    Does anyone have any details of the attempt to shoot Trump
    NYPD have closed down this part of ny and am in pain here

    Is Trump alive ?
    Sounds like Charles might have taken the bullet if he's in pain.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Croydon Momentum
    Disgraceful attack on John McDonnell from Anna Soubrey. If they think Corbyn is a joke, why speak like that? They think he's a threat #bbcqt
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Does anyone have any details of the attempt to shoot Trump
    NYPD have closed down this part of ny and am in pain here

    There's nothing on Twitter. Is that gossip from the scene?
    It's what my taxi driver told me as we worked our way through the NYPD roadblocks...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    edited September 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Question Time panel extraordinarily skewed towards REMAIN (as was)

    Who is the rightwing politician this time :) ?
    The only real rightwinger is Quentin Letts, who is a journalist, he had a clever line warning McDonnell that if he let the revolutionaries go too far he could end up like Robespierre
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Does anyone have any details of the attempt to shoot Trump
    NYPD have closed down this part of ny and am in pain here

    There's nothing on Twitter. Is that gossip from the scene?
    It's what my taxi driver told me as we worked our way through the NYPD roadblocks...
    How long ago ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    McDonnell accuses Campbell of 'destroying trust in politics'. Quite bitchy tonight!
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    GOP presidential nominee Donald Trump won't even release his tax returns, yet voters still think he's more transparent than Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton, according to a new Quinnipiac University poll.

    Fifty-four percent of likely voters said Trump is transparent, compared to 37 percent who said the same of Clinton.

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/quinnipiac-voters-see-trump-as-more-transparent-than-clinton/article/2601955?custom_click=rss
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    QT audience seems to be out of touch with the general public on grammar schools.

    It all depends on how the question is put.

    Remember why the Grammars were abolished? It was very much a bipartisan movement, and a popular one.

    Grammars should only be allowed where a plebiscite of the affected population all vote for them. It should not be dictated either by central government or by a priveliged few.
    The elite was in favour of closing grammars because it meant they could stay on top with the help of private schools.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Question Time panel extraordinarily skewed towards REMAIN (as was)

    Who is the rightwing politician this time :) ?
    The only real rightwinger is Quentin Letts, who is a journalist, he had a clever line warning McDonnell that if he let the revolutionaries go too far he could end up like Robespierre
    I'm started watching about 2315 - it's electric stuff
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Having read again the Telegraph piece on EU officials intending to make the UK give up on Brexit by making negotiations too tough, I am more and more convinced that our line should be:

    "These are the UK's red lines:

    1. No UK contributions to the EU budget
    2. UK to control movement of people across its borders
    3. UK laws to have primacy
    4. UK not subject to ECJ rulings

    Now, EU, given these red lines, what are you prepared to offer us. If nothing, then let's just get it over and done with and to the WTO rules. When you are ready to be sensible, let us know."
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    HYUFD said:

    McDonnell accuses Campbell of 'destroying trust in politics'. Quite bitchy tonight!

    How much booze do you reckon this panel gets through between them in an average week ?
  • Speedy said:

    Charles said:

    Does anyone have any details of the attempt to shoot Trump
    NYPD have closed down this part of ny and am in pain here

    Is Trump alive ?
    Sounds like Charles might have taken the bullet if he's in pain.
    Or discharged his own weapon accidentally.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    HYUFD said:

    McDonnell accuses Campbell of 'destroying trust in politics'. Quite bitchy tonight!

    McMao is quite right
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited September 2016
    MTimT said:

    @Sean_F @WilliamGlenn Agreed. I understand why an economic liberal could want to leave the EU. How any economic liberal could vote Leave after the campaign and it became clear what sort of cultural phenomenon it was was a beyond me. I fear the Hannan wing of Brexiters will find themselves as Dr Frankenstein on this. Though I accept it's too early to tell.

    Mr Submarine, you seem to follow the same logic (sic) as Mr Meeks, to whit, because some 'deplorables' are voting one way on a binary issue, no good sane people could vote the same way. For me, if the liberal economic argument suggests vote leave, that is how I am going to vote, regardless of how the deplorables vote.
    Absolutely. I'm an economic and social liberal and I switched due to the Hannan/Gove/Johnson liberal arguments despite not because of the deplorable Farage/Bone/Galloway one.

    Two wrongs don't make a right, but if something is right it remains right even if the wrong people agree.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    PlatoSaid said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Question Time panel extraordinarily skewed towards REMAIN (as was)

    Who is the rightwing politician this time :) ?
    The only real rightwinger is Quentin Letts, who is a journalist, he had a clever line warning McDonnell that if he let the revolutionaries go too far he could end up like Robespierre
    I'm started watching about 2315 - it's electric stuff
    Yes, the grammar debate was a snoozefest of agreement apart from Letts. Now it is getting quite vicious and much more interesting
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    McDonnell accuses Campbell of 'destroying trust in politics'. Quite bitchy tonight!

    How much booze do you reckon this panel gets through between them in an average week ?
    Certainly Letts, Campbell and Soubry probably keep several distilleries in business
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Interesting quote from Philip Collins in The Times:

    "Meritocracy is not a cuddly idea where the poor do better but a brutal reality where every winner brings a loser"

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/mays-vision-of-social-mobility-is-sheer-fantasy-nvbrk6gsv
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited September 2016

    rkrkrk said:



    Okay- but do those same people seek out made in Britain labels and buy British wherever they can even if it costs a lot more?

    I don't support Mr. Hyfud's argument here but I do buy British whenever I can. In particular I will not buy foreign meat (save specialist sausages, where there is no British equivalent) even though they are generally more expensive than imported equivalents (e.g. locally produced lamb is about 50% more expensive than stuff that has been frozen and shipped halfway around the world).

    Partly my decision is made on the basis on animal welfare considerations (other countries standards are lower than our own), partly on the grounds of quality (the difference between prime Sussex Lamb and New Zealand lamb is huge and if I have a complaint I can bend the farmer's ear in the pub on Sunday lunchtime) but mostly I just want to support British Farmers who are struggling.

    When I couldn't afford the premium for British meat I went without or bought cheaper cuts that I could afford.
    I can afford to buy locally produced food so I do. Obsessing over food miles is my main way of virtue signalling. However, secretly I only do it because everything tastes so much better. Don't tell anyone.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    PlatoSaid said:

    HYUFD said:

    McDonnell accuses Campbell of 'destroying trust in politics'. Quite bitchy tonight!

    McMao is quite right
    Yes, he was not wrong there
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    John_M said:

    I'm sure that whatever happens I'll be disappointed.

    Is that sentence an oxymoron? ;)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    Oof this is the civil war in Labour writ large.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,930
    MTimT said:

    Having read again the Telegraph piece on EU officials intending to make the UK give up on Brexit by making negotiations too tough, I am more and more convinced that our line should be:

    "These are the UK's red lines:

    1. No UK contributions to the EU budget
    2. UK to control movement of people across its borders
    3. UK laws to have primacy
    4. UK not subject to ECJ rulings

    Now, EU, given these red lines, what are you prepared to offer us. If nothing, then let's just get it over and done with and to the WTO rules. When you are ready to be sensible, let us know."

    Free trade in goods; no use of product standards as an NTB.
    Free trade in services, but no financial passporting.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Well nothing about any Trump being shot, so I assume Charles's taxi driver was peddling rumours.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Calgie
    Anna Soubry, John Mcdonnell AND Alastair Campbell on one panel? Hope someone's got fire extinguishers ready... https://t.co/oCklZMHs5M
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited September 2016
    According to a new WXYZ/Detroit Free Press poll released Thursday, Trump trails Clinton by only 3 points, as the former secretary of state takes 38 percent to Trump's 35 percent. Libertarian nominee Gary Johnson pulls 10 percent support, while Green Party nominee Jill Stein takes 4 percent. Thirteen percent of respondents were undecided.

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/poll-trump-trims-clinton-lead-in-michigan/article/2601969?custom_click=rss
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    New Labour "Got elected, was a disaster" - rofl !
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    Speedy said:

    Charles said:

    Does anyone have any details of the attempt to shoot Trump
    NYPD have closed down this part of ny and am in pain here

    Is Trump alive ?
    Sounds like Charles might have taken the bullet if he's in pain.
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/09/15/nyc-police-shoot-man-who-attacked-officer-with-meat-cleaver-in-manhattan.html

    Could this be it?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    I see Paddy Power had moved Montana in to 1-10 now.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited September 2016
    At what moment should I skip to on QT reply to get to Red on Red action?
  • Farage clearly wants to stay on the European stage. Brexit risks destroying his platform in Brussels.

    http://www.politico.eu/article/ukip-plans-invasion-of-the-continent-nigel-farage-arron-banks-right-wing-populism/

    Farage, who will step down as leader of UKIP at the party’s yearly conference later this week, is eyeing a future role as “roving ambassador,” according to Banks. “To go to places like Denmark and France and say: ‘It’s possible, you can do it as well.’ "
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    MTimT said:

    Having read again the Telegraph piece on EU officials intending to make the UK give up on Brexit by making negotiations too tough, I am more and more convinced that our line should be:

    "These are the UK's red lines:

    1. No UK contributions to the EU budget
    2. UK to control movement of people across its borders
    3. UK laws to have primacy
    4. UK not subject to ECJ rulings

    Now, EU, given these red lines, what are you prepared to offer us. If nothing, then let's just get it over and done with and to the WTO rules. When you are ready to be sensible, let us know."

    I wouldn't argue with those, though I might add in Mr. Robert's Free Trade suggestions (see his recent post). The EU is unlikely to agree to any of it, especially Mr. Robert's free trade in services, but it has the advantage of cutting through the crap. Properly handled the negotiations could be done and dusted in a month.

    The key point is that the UK has to go into these negotiations prepared to get up and walk away from the table.
  • @MTimT @John_M No. I'd reject as ludicrous a guilt by association charge linking me to Goldman Sachs or Sinn Fein as a Remainer voter. It would be equally absurd to say every Leave voter is responsible for Britain First's street patrols. Which is why I said no such thing. I said I could understand why an economic liberal could want to leave the EU. I said I couldn't understand how an economic liberal could have voted Leave after the campaign. While my view is possibly utterly wrong it's a far more nuisanced judgement that either of you is suggesting. I did not say ' All Leave voters go in the Basket of deplorable '.
This discussion has been closed.