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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour chooses an Everton fan to be its candidate for Mayor

SystemSystem Posts: 11,683
edited August 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour chooses an Everton fan to be its candidate for Mayor of Greater Manchester

One of the legacies of George Osborne’s chancellorship was the creation of an executive mayor to cover the greater Manchester region. This was the spearhead of the “Northern Powerhouse” which is no longer looked on favourably by the current occupant of Number 10.

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    Ooh
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JeremyCliffe: Labour's leader, deputy, shadow chancellor, London & Bristol mayors and mayoral candidates for Manc, W Midlands and (prob) Liv: all men.
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Now if UKIP can find a really impressive candidate (and that is a big if) then Burnham might yet prove to be another loser
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    And Sion Simon is the Labour candidate for West Midlands Mayor
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    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    Am I the only one who wonders where these metro mayors suddenly came from? Greater Manchester was abolished, more or less, decades ago, so how has it been resurrected? When the Labour government came up with the idea of regional government it was rejected, so where is the mandate to do it? I vote that we boycott this nonsense.
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    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,414
    I wonder how many people voted for Burnham to shunt him off into regional obscurity?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    He's resigning as an MP now, or he will resign if he wins the post of mayor next May?
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    FPT:

    Those uniforms look like Heer, not SS. Though it's hard to make out the flashes. People are morons.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    The lesson learnt, - having zero principles and sucking up to the boss brings reward. :lol:
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    Dadge said:

    Am I the only one who wonders where these metro mayors suddenly came from? Greater Manchester was abolished, more or less, decades ago, so how has it been resurrected? When the Labour government came up with the idea of regional government it was rejected, so where is the mandate to do it? I vote that we boycott this nonsense.

    Labour went for souped for City Mayors, what the Tories/coalition decided to go for souped up regional Mayors.

    For example the good people of Manchester city (sic) rejected a souped Manchester City mayor, so we got a souped up Greater Manchester Mayor
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Sandpit said:

    He's resigning as an MP now, or he will resign if he wins the post of mayor next May?

    Resign as MP if he wins, he said, so who knows...
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    And Sion Simon is the Labour candidate for West Midlands Mayor

    This Sion Simon?
    http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Scott_P said:

    @JeremyCliffe: Labour's leader, deputy, shadow chancellor, London & Bristol mayors and mayoral candidates for Manc, W Midlands and (prob) Liv: all men.

    But Labour is all about equality.

    Other than all the times when it is not.

    Which seems to be most of the time.

    In all seriousness, Labour's attempts at equality has seen the election of incredibly poor female candidates who get selected because they are women not because of what talents they have.

    So you get the likes of Cat Smith, Jess Phillips (in the new intake) and the Eagles from earlier generations. No political or presentation skills. Just the right combination of chromosomes to tick a box.

    It has hardly surprising that Labour keeps electing men when the women on offer are not strong candidates.
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    Trotskyists 'twisting arms' of young Labour members to back Corbyn, Watson says

    Labour’s deputy leader claims hard-left ‘old hands’ are not interested in winning elections and will destroy the party

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/09/trotskyists-young-labour-members-jeremy-corbyn-tom-watson?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Scott_P said:

    Sandpit said:

    He's resigning as an MP now, or he will resign if he wins the post of mayor next May?

    Resign as MP if he wins, he said, so who knows...
    So still not making a positive decision then!
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    And Sion Simon is the Labour candidate for West Midlands Mayor

    The Tories do so badly in the cities the results are already known. I hope they don't become one party states trying to stay in the E.U with Scotland.
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    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,414

    Trotskyists 'twisting arms' of young Labour members to back Corbyn, Watson says

    Labour’s deputy leader claims hard-left ‘old hands’ are not interested in winning elections and will destroy the party

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/09/trotskyists-young-labour-members-jeremy-corbyn-tom-watson?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    The levels of dysfunction revealed in that piece are tragic!
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Ooh

    The https://t.co/aWvDM92FMS website is worth a read right now https://t.co/znXQJuU7pe
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Sandpit, expecting decisiveness from Burnham is like expecting restraint from a nymphomaniac at an orgy.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Time to reissue my Red Flag (Burnham version) from last year's leadership election, as best I can remember:

    The Burnham flag is brightest blue,
    it flutters for his passion true
    He's standing 'cause he thinks he ought
    to mouth the words his forebears taught
    His policies are full of air;
    Look inside and nothings there.
    But that fight's just his daytime one:
    his true heart's Evertonian
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Tom Watson wants Shadow Cabinet elections if Corbyn wins.

    How is he going to get that through the Corbynist NEC?
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2016
    Dadge said:

    Am I the only one who wonders where these metro mayors suddenly came from? Greater Manchester was abolished, more or less, decades ago, so how has it been resurrected? When the Labour government came up with the idea of regional government it was rejected, so where is the mandate to do it? I vote that we boycott this nonsense.

    The mandate is that it was an iniative of the elected government that was passed by Parliament.

    Prior to the Labour government deciding that there should be a referendum on which side of the bed to get out of, that was where all such iniatives got their mandate.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    edited August 2016
    Scott_P said:

    Tom Watson wants Shadow Cabinet elections if Corbyn wins.

    How is he going to get that through the Corbynist NEC?

    Who is the proposed electorate ?
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Doh! We already know who Jezza wants as Shadow Home Secretary

    He put her in the Lords last week...
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Pulpstar said:

    Who is the proposed electorate ?

    The PLP I think
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    Tom Watson wants Shadow Cabinet elections if Corbyn wins.

    How is he going to get that through the Corbynist NEC?

    Who is the proposed electorate ?
    Didn't it used to be that the Shad Cab was elected by the MPs though?
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    Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    Mike: "I find it amusing that Greater Manchester will soon be headed by someone who doesn’t support on of its football teams."

    Agree, and it's not just about football, it's about being a figurehead for the Manchester city region. As a resident and worker there, I'm not small-minded enough to think "it has to be a Manc", and I don;t believe most others who live here are either, but other than representing a seat in between Manchester and Liverpool, which is not really "Manchester" at all other than via a Whitehall pen-pusher's edict in the early 70s, what has Andy Burnham ever done for or got to offer Manchester?

    If there was one obvious, popular, leading "anti Burnham" figure to take him on, I could see that person having a chance. The Tories need to find a popular, bipartisan figure (a la Boris) rather than putting up some non-entity of a Tory local councillor.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited August 2016
    Well worth reading ICYMI

    Nick Cohen
    Listen, this piece on PC censorship was one fuck of a lot of trouble to write. The least you can do is read it https://t.co/PL4Qslc6Yn
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    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,414
    Scott_P said:

    Tom Watson wants Shadow Cabinet elections if Corbyn wins.

    How is he going to get that through the Corbynist NEC?

    How would it work in practice if it got through though? 180 people who can't work with Corbyn electing 25 from amongst their number who can't work with Corbyn. It would be ludicrous.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306

    And Sion Simon is the Labour candidate for West Midlands Mayor

    Did he not write an article about a future Labour victory once?
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited August 2016
    Dadge said:

    Am I the only one who wonders where these metro mayors suddenly came from? Greater Manchester was abolished, more or less, decades ago, so how has it been resurrected? When the Labour government came up with the idea of regional government it was rejected, so where is the mandate to do it? I vote that we boycott this nonsense.

    When the Greater Manchester Council was abolished the authorities recognised they still needed to work together on pan-city projects and so created the informal AGMA. They have been pushing for years to get powers that were taken back by central government. London achieved it through the GLA, but everywhere else is micromanaged by Whitehall.

    After years of wrangling with various governments the coalition finally agreed to the creation of statutory Combined Authorities. These allow local authorities to legally pool resources as well as to excerise powers that were originally taken away from them like transport planning, housing and training.

    However the government handing over control of money pots to local authorities with no poltical accountability for them is a no no, so as a requirement to get more powers then a democratically elected mayor is required to take the blame for what the authorities do with their new powers.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Shadow Cabinet to be elected by the Labour membership imo.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    ToryJim said:

    How would it work in practice if it got through though? 180 people who can't work with Corbyn electing 25 from amongst their number who can't work with Corbyn. It would be ludicrous.

    It wouldn't work as a system of shadow government with Corbyn in post, but that is not the aim or the point.

    If the shadow cabinet were elected, then they could stand at the despatch box slagging off Corbyn all day long, and if he complained they would just shout "mandate" at him.

    It's (another) last ditch attempt to rescue the party. Probably doomed.
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    Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176

    Dadge said:

    Am I the only one who wonders where these metro mayors suddenly came from? Greater Manchester was abolished, more or less, decades ago, so how has it been resurrected? When the Labour government came up with the idea of regional government it was rejected, so where is the mandate to do it? I vote that we boycott this nonsense.

    Labour went for souped for City Mayors, what the Tories/coalition decided to go for souped up regional Mayors.

    For example the good people of Manchester city (sic) rejected a souped Manchester City mayor, so we got a souped up Greater Manchester Mayor
    Although the people of Salford voted for and got a souped up Salford city mayor, but I don't know whether the GM Mayor means they go back to having a normal one, or whether it will just add another dimension to the ongoing Manchester vs Salford contretemps...
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    edited August 2016

    And Sion Simon is the Labour candidate for West Midlands Mayor

    That is the potentially the most interesting contest. A donkey with a red rosette would surely win a Corbyn-led election in Manchester, London, Bristol, Leeds, Liverpool or Newcastle. The university graduates and undergraduates who, heaven help them, think Corbyn is the Jezziah rather than a creepy and unpleasant weirdo with a long track of record of failure and dishonesty when allied to the tribal Labour vote should see them home comfortably.

    However, if there is one major city which encapsulates the disaffection of Labour voters from the wealthy metropolitan virtue signallers, it is Birmingham. Although it has several universities, most of them are quite small and very few graduates live in it. There is a large ethnic minority population and a large, effectively disenfranchised working class. The city has a big UKIP presence and still has pockets where the Conservatives are strong.

    On top of this, while there may be a weaker candidate than Sion Simon, it is hard to think who it could be. He has the intellectual capacity of a village idiot, the charisma of a weighing machine, the political acumen of a Donald Trump crossed with the bloke who came up with Hilary's email defence, the charm of a Thameslink official and the efficiency of an Easyjet baggage handler. He won two elections in Erdington more or less by default, and his journalistic career was famously marked by The Spectator describing his as a Telegraph columnist and The Daily Telegraph describing him as 'associate editor of The Spectator.'

    A strong UKIP candidate or even a decent working-class Conservative could easily spring a surprise there. Of course, that does presuppose they can find such candidates. But I would say he's no more than about a 3-1 shot at the moment.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    Hands up who respects Andy Burnham?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306

    Hands up who respects Andy Burnham?

    Anybody? Anybody at all?
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    Hands up who respects Andy Burnham?

    Not even Andy Burnham respects Andy Burnham. Anyone with any self respect would have quit the Shadow Cabinet months ago. He didn't.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @sundersays: Sion Simon is Labour's candidate for Mayor in the West Midlands. Just 3817 people took part in the nomination vote https://t.co/xkvblaCKcU

    @williamdbrett: Over 85k voted for Labour's London mayoral candidate. The party, like the country, is catastrophically unbalanced. https://t.co/XsmAB9M0ed
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited August 2016
    Hmm.

    @JohnRentoul: 12 reasons not to panic about Brexit – & why we probably won't leave the EU after all @DenisMacShane for @IndyVoices https://t.co/XSc1pBoU7S

    Runs for cover...
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    PlatoSaid said:

    Well worth reading ICYMI

    Nick Cohen
    Listen, this piece on PC censorship was one fuck of a lot of trouble to write. The least you can do is read it https://t.co/PL4Qslc6Yn

    I think this is the best part:

    "It is his determination to seek out the paltriest grounds for offence that makes Davies so contemporary. Much of modern “dissent” is not a protest against injustice but a kind of religious test. The inquisitor discovers sin where no one has seen it before and demands you prove your worth by seeing it too. The flimsier the pretext for complaint, the worthier complainants prove themselves to be. Our culture of competitive grievance is at root a form of showing off. I am more perceptive than you are, more compassionate, and more determined to purge the world until it is clean."
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    Hands up who respects Andy Burnham?

    Actually I do.

    He did so much good work on the Hillsborough disaster inquiry, when very few were interested.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    Scott_P said:

    @sundersays: Sion Simon is Labour's candidate for Mayor in the West Midlands. Just 3817 people took part in the nomination vote https://t.co/xkvblaCKcU

    @williamdbrett: Over 85k voted for Labour's London mayoral candidate. The party, like the country, is catastrophically unbalanced. https://t.co/XsmAB9M0ed

    God, the Tories could have infiltrated a couple of thousand votes...
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306

    Scott_P said:

    @sundersays: Sion Simon is Labour's candidate for Mayor in the West Midlands. Just 3817 people took part in the nomination vote https://t.co/xkvblaCKcU

    @williamdbrett: Over 85k voted for Labour's London mayoral candidate. The party, like the country, is catastrophically unbalanced. https://t.co/XsmAB9M0ed

    God, the Tories could have infiltrated a couple of thousand votes...
    How could they have got a better result?
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304
    fpt
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    McDonnell definitely wears a better suit than Corbyn and is less likely to be stuck answering a question more difficult than "why are you so wonderful" but the idea that his credibility is being undermined is a bit of stretch.

    Of course, if it were true it would simply put him in the same category as the rest of the shadow cabinet.

    The silence from the sane wing of the party is deafening. Have they really decided that they are so out of step with the membto find a different party? It's sad.

    I think that PB contributors tend to misread Labour MPs and what makes them tick, and it leads to serial betting mistakes, as well as the bafflement that you describe. I've got a piece in mind to submit to Mike on this which I hope will be useful, if I can get past the various immediate translation and seminar preparation stuff that has piled up when I was on holiday.

    Briefly, though, most Labour MPs don't especially disagree with the direction of the Corbyn agenda; they are simply doubtful if he can win. They act when they think that action will produce a better chance of winning (as they thought the no-conidence letter seemed to), but neither the Smith candidacy nor splitting into a sub-SDP looks likely to produce that nor fronting a failed rebellion, so they don't see any point in championing any of these.

    As for the Labour membership more widely, PB is still dominated by supporters of the "what counts most is winning" school of thought, which is a minority view in Labour. The "first you have to work out what you stand for" school is currently dominant, and unless that's understood, people will keep making the wrong bets.
    Re your last para (and no obligation on you to do this, of course, as I realize you're a busy man etc) I would be interested in your take on the thread I wrote at the weekend. It is my own (and probably from your perspective, entirely wrong-headed) attempt to work out how one might start constructing a left of centre perspective in today's world.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/08/07/going-back-to-your-roots-cyclefree-on-the-labour-leadership-contest/


    Nick evidently doesn't tear himself away from his translation enough these days.

    No idea about the good folk of Broxtowe, but in vox pop after vox pop after R5 phone-in and the rest, the majority of 50-70yr-old lifelong Lab voters absolutely know what they want. They want a sensible centre-left party which will win power and oppose the Tories. Such people are the ones who lived through the 18 years of Cons rule, via Michael Foot, and are desperate not to do it again.

    Those are the people that Nick's elegantly theoretical musings on "what the Labour Party is for" are letting down.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Hands up who respects Andy Burnham?

    Actually I do.

    He did so much good work on the Hillsborough disaster inquiry, when very few were interested.
    I'll agree with that to some extent, but he only got involved after he was invited to speak at the memorial as SoS for Sport and got booed off the stage. But fair play to him, he woke up and did more than any other politician for the Hillsborough victims.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306

    Hands up who respects Andy Burnham?

    Actually I do.

    He did so much good work on the Hillsborough disaster inquiry, when very few were interested.
    You're serious about being a candidate aren't you?
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Virgin East Coast rail staff vote to strike

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37023141

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    jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,261

    Hands up who respects Andy Burnham?

    Actually I do.

    He did so much good work on the Hillsborough disaster inquiry, when very few were interested.
    His work on Hillsborough should be commended but then his behaviour during the mid staffs scandal can't be forgotten.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    Scott_P said:

    Hmm.

    @JohnRentoul: 12 reasons not to panic about Brexit – & why we probably won't leave the EU after all @DenisMacShane for @IndyVoices https://t.co/XSc1pBoU7S

    Runs for cover...

    Or, as it should be more aptly titled, 12 reasons for you not to agree with the referendum result.

    If Remain had won somehow I doubt that observations that 63% of the electorate didn't vote for it and that it was based on exaggerations and had less moral authority would be somewhat less forthcoming from journalists like Rentoul.
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    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,414
    This is the Denis MacShane who was Europe's minister in the Blair government and who subsequently served time for expenses crimes. Forgive me if I fail to value his opinion.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    @YDoethur

    "On top of this, while there may be a weaker candidate than Sion Simon, it is hard to think who it could be. He has the intellectual capacity of a village idiot, the charisma of a weighing machine, the political acumen of a Donald Trump crossed with the bloke who came up with Hilary's email defence, the charm of a Thameslink official and the efficiency of an Easyjet baggage handler. He won two elections in Erdington more or less by default, and his journalistic career was famously marked by The Spectator describing his as a Telegraph columnist and The Daily Telegraph describing him as 'associate editor of The Spectator.'"

    I'll put you down as a possible supporter then, Doc. The man maybe an idiot but he did have a weekly column in the Telegraph before he was elected to Parliament in 1997, for which he was presumably paid, so perhaps not a complete idiot.

    P.S. Shame you missed the education conversation on the last thread, I would like to have heard your views.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190


    Virgin East Coast rail staff vote to strike

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37023141

    Chicken and egg.

    http://tinyurl.com/hhvabys
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242

    Mike: "I find it amusing that Greater Manchester will soon be headed by someone who doesn’t support on of its football teams."

    Agree, and it's not just about football, it's about being a figurehead for the Manchester city region. As a resident and worker there, I'm not small-minded enough to think "it has to be a Manc", and I don;t believe most others who live here are either, but other than representing a seat in between Manchester and Liverpool, which is not really "Manchester" at all other than via a Whitehall pen-pusher's edict in the early 70s, what has Andy Burnham ever done for or got to offer Manchester?

    If there was one obvious, popular, leading "anti Burnham" figure to take him on, I could see that person having a chance. The Tories need to find a popular, bipartisan figure (a la Boris) rather than putting up some non-entity of a Tory local councillor.

    Looking at these candidates, the suspicion has to be that these roles will not become about devolution and building up the North, but about cushy junkets for politicians who have messed up spectacularly and been forced to retreat from national politics - a sort of substitute for the EU.

    Of course that may have been Osborne's intention all along, but given the basic idea seems sensible and could really have made a difference to some of our less than thriving cities, it's rather a tragedy.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    I have just realised that I've been mistaking Simon Schama for Sion Simon in my mind for this whole thread.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335

    Hands up who respects Andy Burnham?

    Actually I do.

    He did so much good work on the Hillsborough disaster inquiry, when very few were interested.
    Fair enough. A good piece of work there but badly let down by his subsequent performances, particularly as Health Secretary.

    I just don't see any leadership capability in him. He's a natural 1st lieutenant.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304
    interesting - just getting a CLSID scam phone call.

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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    Pulpstar said:

    I have just realised that I've been mistaking Simon Schama for Sion Simon in my mind for this whole thread.

    Sion Simon is this guy:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iyQe_jDq7oM
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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    PlatoSaid said:

    Well worth reading ICYMI

    Nick Cohen
    Listen, this piece on PC censorship was one fuck of a lot of trouble to write. The least you can do is read it https://t.co/PL4Qslc6Yn

    Thanks for sharing. But where was the RTD trigger warning?! I'm now wracked with grief remembering Rose...

    (but good read though)
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Pulpstar said:

    I have just realised that I've been mistaking Simon Schama for Sion Simon in my mind for this whole thread.

    Sion Simon is this prat:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn4IpyVViw4
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304
    tlg86 said:


    Virgin East Coast rail staff vote to strike

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37023141

    Chicken and egg.

    http://tinyurl.com/hhvabys
    "training up a scab army..."

    The 1980s called, they want their battleground instructions.
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    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,546

    Mike: "I find it amusing that Greater Manchester will soon be headed by someone who doesn’t support on of its football teams."

    Agree, and it's not just about football, it's about being a figurehead for the Manchester city region. As a resident and worker there, I'm not small-minded enough to think "it has to be a Manc", and I don;t believe most others who live here are either, but other than representing a seat in between Manchester and Liverpool, which is not really "Manchester" at all other than via a Whitehall pen-pusher's edict in the early 70s, what has Andy Burnham ever done for or got to offer Manchester?

    If there was one obvious, popular, leading "anti Burnham" figure to take him on, I could see that person having a chance. The Tories need to find a popular, bipartisan figure (a la Boris) rather than putting up some non-entity of a Tory local councillor.

    Yes I agree - also having some local knowledge I'd think Burnham is very beatable. But a party hack (of any party) would lose. If there's a high profile independent / Tory in all but name then they'd be able to pick up on the terrible national polling for Labour under Corbyn, Burnham's Liverpool affinity and his lack of real achievement in the city. To throw a name out there, if I was trying to find such a candidate I'd be speaking to people like Sir Peter Fahy.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    Burnham is a useless pudding of a man but he is a member of the shadow cabinet that nearly half of the public might have heard of. Khan also had a reasonable profile. These Mayoral elections threaten to make the talent available at the top of the Labour party even more threadbare.

    Just as well there is pretty much no risk of them forming a government.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited August 2016
    So Andy Burnham will be next Mayor of Manchester and ironically could end up with more real power than Corbyn. He and Sadiq Khan can now build their own powerbases in the most powerful cities in the south and north of the country. I don't think being an Everton fan will harm him too much, Liverpool maybe
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:


    Virgin East Coast rail staff vote to strike

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37023141

    Chicken and egg.

    http://tinyurl.com/hhvabys
    "training up a scab army..."

    The 1980s called, they want their battleground instructions.
    I hoped someone would spot that line. :D
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,444
    edited August 2016
    DavidL said:

    Hands up who respects Andy Burnham?

    Actually I do.

    He did so much good work on the Hillsborough disaster inquiry, when very few were interested.
    You're serious about being a candidate aren't you?
    Just imagine if Labour split, UKIP continue to implode, the Tory candidate could win with just 25% of the vote.

    Who wouldn't fancy being Greater Manchester's first Directly Elected DictatorMayor?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited August 2016

    Hands up who respects Andy Burnham?

    Not even Andy Burnham respects Andy Burnham. Anyone with any self respect would have quit the Shadow Cabinet months ago. He didn't.
    Having not quit he ensures Corbynista voters will back him in the Mayoral election and there are probably more Corbynistas in Greater Manchester than Tories outside Trafford
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    ThrakThrak Posts: 494
    From much earlier but to the person who claimed that all countries are the same as regards drug cheats.

    No, they are not, we should be proud of our record in comparison to the state doping of Russia, widespread collusion in places like China and the large stables of coaches in the like of the USA. We know this because of numbers and they say a lot. There is no doubt that such countries (and there are plenty more if you look at the figures) do not have the moral authority on the subject of countries like ours.
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    FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,898
    edited August 2016
    Apologies if already posted:

    David Allen Green: Brexit means Brexit — but in reality it’s a long time away

    Those wanting the UK to leave the European Union have won the referendum battle but it is still far from certain that they will win the Brexit war. The task before the UK is huge, and it may be that Article 50 is never invoked. If there is a Brexit, or a radical new basis for UK membership, this may have to be by an entirely new treaty.

    Bountiful times ahead for the lawyers!
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,616
    George Osborne should put himself forward as the Tory candidate in Manchester.

    It is his baby after all.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    I did, but it's utter nonsense. His second point disqualifies him from being taken seriously.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    ydoethur said:

    And Sion Simon is the Labour candidate for West Midlands Mayor

    That is the potentially the most interesting contest. A donkey with a red rosette would surely win a Corbyn-led election in Manchester, London, Bristol, Leeds, Liverpool or Newcastle. The university graduates and undergraduates who, heaven help them, think Corbyn is the Jezziah rather than a creepy and unpleasant weirdo with a long track of record of failure and dishonesty when allied to the tribal Labour vote should see them home comfortably.

    However, if there is one major city which encapsulates the disaffection of Labour voters from the wealthy metropolitan virtue signallers, it is Birmingham. Although it has several universities, most of them are quite small and very few graduates live in it. There is a large ethnic minority population and a large, effectively disenfranchised working class. The city has a big UKIP presence and still has pockets where the Conservatives are strong.

    On top of this, while there may be a weaker candidate than Sion Simon, it is hard to think who it could be. He has the intellectual capacity of a village idiot, the charisma of a weighing machine, the political acumen of a Donald Trump crossed with the bloke who came up with Hilary's email defence, the charm of a Thameslink official and the efficiency of an Easyjet baggage handler. He won two elections in Erdington more or less by default, and his journalistic career was famously marked by The Spectator describing his as a Telegraph columnist and The Daily Telegraph describing him as 'associate editor of The Spectator.'

    A strong UKIP candidate or even a decent working-class Conservative could easily spring a surprise there. Of course, that does presuppose they can find such candidates. But I would say he's no more than about a 3-1 shot at the moment.
    Indeed Birmingham was one of the few big cities which voted Leave
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306

    DavidL said:

    Hands up who respects Andy Burnham?

    Actually I do.

    He did so much good work on the Hillsborough disaster inquiry, when very few were interested.
    You're serious about being a candidate aren't you?
    Just imagine if Labour split, UKIP continue to implode, the Tory candidate could win with just 25% of the vote.

    Who wouldn't fancy being Greater Manchester's first Directly Elected DictatorMayor?
    I suspect that it would have been a more fun job if Osborne was still at the Treasury. The risk is that it will now be gutted of real power by people who are not enthusiasts of the concept.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007

    Now if UKIP can find a really impressive candidate (and that is a big if) then Burnham might yet prove to be another loser

    UKIP will never win Manchester, it voted Remain in EUref
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    HYUFD said:

    Hands up who respects Andy Burnham?

    Not even Andy Burnham respects Andy Burnham. Anyone with any self respect would have quit the Shadow Cabinet months ago. He didn't.
    Having not quit he ensures Corbynista voters will back him in the Mayoral election and there are probably more Corbynistas in Greater Manchester than Tories outside Trafford
    That is self interest at work, not self respect.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Hands up who respects Andy Burnham?

    Actually I do.

    He did so much good work on the Hillsborough disaster inquiry, when very few were interested.
    Fair enough. A good piece of work there but badly let down by his subsequent performances, particularly as Health Secretary.

    I just don't see any leadership capability in him. He's a natural 1st lieutenant.
    Mr. Royale, Point of order, Sir.

    The 1st Lieutenant's role has always been to deliver a working ship that the Captain can use. As such the 1st Lieutenant had, and still has to have, very good leadership skills as indeed do do all members of the wardroom and senior rates' mess decks.

    The correct analogy for someone with no leadership skill is, wanker.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Apologies if already posted:

    David Allen Green: Brexit means Brexit — but in reality it’s a long time away

    Those wanting the UK to leave the European Union have won the referendum battle but it is still far from certain that they will win the Brexit war. The task before the UK is huge, and it may be that Article 50 is never invoked. If there is a Brexit, or a radical new basis for UK membership, this may have to be by an entirely new treaty.

    Bountiful times ahead for the lawyers!

    Another bad loser still in the Denial phase.
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    I've got a reporter from the Morning Star pursuing me for comment regarding why my CLP has "refused" to hold a nomination meeting.

    The Morning Star. My life's work is complete
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335

    Apologies if already posted:

    David Allen Green: Brexit means Brexit — but in reality it’s a long time away

    Those wanting the UK to leave the European Union have won the referendum battle but it is still far from certain that they will win the Brexit war. The task before the UK is huge, and it may be that Article 50 is never invoked. If there is a Brexit, or a radical new basis for UK membership, this may have to be by an entirely new treaty.

    Bountiful times ahead for the lawyers!

    We are in the phoney war of Brexit at the moment.

    Late Autumn/Spring next year is when it'll start to get fruity, with a burst of activity after the French/German elections.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007

    HYUFD said:

    Hands up who respects Andy Burnham?

    Not even Andy Burnham respects Andy Burnham. Anyone with any self respect would have quit the Shadow Cabinet months ago. He didn't.
    Having not quit he ensures Corbynista voters will back him in the Mayoral election and there are probably more Corbynistas in Greater Manchester than Tories outside Trafford
    That is self interest at work, not self respect.
    Self respect is pointless if you get no power with it and you are a politician
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007

    George Osborne should put himself forward as the Tory candidate in Manchester.

    It is his baby after all.

    Osborne risks coming third. He will be looking to make money with directorship and memoirs anyway
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335

    Hands up who respects Andy Burnham?

    Actually I do.

    He did so much good work on the Hillsborough disaster inquiry, when very few were interested.
    Fair enough. A good piece of work there but badly let down by his subsequent performances, particularly as Health Secretary.

    I just don't see any leadership capability in him. He's a natural 1st lieutenant.
    Mr. Royale, Point of order, Sir.

    The 1st Lieutenant's role has always been to deliver a working ship that the Captain can use. As such the 1st Lieutenant had, and still has to have, very good leadership skills as indeed do do all members of the wardroom and senior rates' mess decks.

    The correct analogy for someone with no leadership skill is, wanker.
    Is that a nautical term?
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    George Osborne should put himself forward as the Tory candidate in Manchester.

    It is his baby after all.

    How about Liverpool candidate for a real laugh.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    @HurstLlama

    If you're referring to selection, I skimmed through the posts. Based on my personal, very difficult time as an intelligent boy in a comprehensive school where laziness was prized, failure was rewarded and brilliance was usually met with actual violence - which undoubtedly held me back very considerably - I am in principle in favour of selection.

    I also taught in a really good grammar school in Gloucester which - oddly - made me more dubious about its merits. Because Gloucester does not oblige all pupils to sit the 11+, it was only sat by those children with pushy parents and often, the means to pay for private tuition. As my rather frustrated Head of Department, who had been to the same school I had, commented, 'We seem to be a school for those whose parents can't be bothered to fork out the fees for King's or Dean Close.' In fact, I think only five pupils that I taught there came from working class backgrounds.

    I confess I have no easy solutions to either problem. However, I have sometimes speculated that selection at 14 rather than 11, based on a universal non-coachable test (if such a thing can ever be formulated) might be the answer. That would allow those with great potential to dance ahead, and those who really will never cope at that level to be taught in different styles at a different pace. And after all, such a thing de facto happens anyway with setting and different subjects/exam tiers.

    But I think that is politically unacceptable. When I was in Bristol, we were given significant grief by the council for running a 'Gifted and Talented' Stream for 16 very able students (which incidentally was a Labour initiative). Because all children are obviously equally gifted and talented and picking a few as specially so was discriminatory to the rest. Small wonder that Bristol's schools have such dire results, eh?

    In an interesting example of this crassness, Steven Moffat, the rather unpleasant dogmatist famous for writing bad TV dramas, also once said that it was a scandal the school he formerly taught in was providing extra resources for able students 'because it meant the most education went to those who need it the least' - a rather terrifying arse-about-face attitude from an English teacher who clearly doesn't understand the basic principles of education.

    On your point about me being a 'possible' supporter of Simon, I am irresistibly reminded of the DUP member who asked what it would take for him to support Cameron's government - 'a couple of billion should do it' (not that I have a vote in Cannock, of course)!
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    It's time to break the RMT and other associates railway unions.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    HYUFD said:

    George Osborne should put himself forward as the Tory candidate in Manchester.

    It is his baby after all.

    Osborne risks coming third. He will be looking to make money with directorship and memoirs anyway
    The safe seat of Tatton is pretty much ideally suited for Osborne.

    I doubt he'd win a competitive election in many other places.
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    HYUFD said:

    George Osborne should put himself forward as the Tory candidate in Manchester.

    It is his baby after all.

    Osborne risks coming third. He will be looking to make money with directorship and memoirs anyway
    The safe seat of Tatton is pretty much ideally suited for Osborne.

    I doubt he'd win a competitive election in many other places.
    Well it wasn't held by the Tories when George Osborne became the Tory candidate for Tatton.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    edited August 2016
    MaxPB said:

    It's time to break the RMT and other associates railway unions.

    It's time to break Thameslink and Southern. Is there any way they could devour each other without causing disruption (or, to put it another way, further than normal disruption)?

    Incidentally, do any of our London posters know if Thameslink ever have days where they do not cancel services? There is a reason why I am asking, but since if I am right it is a criminal matter and if I am wrong it would definitely be libellous, I trust people will forgive me for not mentioning it.
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited August 2016
    HYUFD said:

    Now if UKIP can find a really impressive candidate (and that is a big if) then Burnham might yet prove to be another loser

    UKIP will never win Manchester, it voted Remain in EUref
    I don't think Greater Manchester did. (Though I'm not disagreeing that UKIP won't win)
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited August 2016

    HYUFD said:

    George Osborne should put himself forward as the Tory candidate in Manchester.

    It is his baby after all.

    Osborne risks coming third. He will be looking to make money with directorship and memoirs anyway
    The safe seat of Tatton is pretty much ideally suited for Osborne.

    I doubt he'd win a competitive election in many other places.
    He might even have lost Tatton in 2001 had Martin Bell stood again. Osborne is to Cameron what Mandelson was to Blair, sharp and the brains of the operation but everybody loathes him (except TSE of course)
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited August 2016

    We are in the phoney war of Brexit at the moment.

    Late Autumn/Spring next year is when it'll start to get fruity, with a burst of activity after the French/German elections.

    Yes, this is very much the phoney war period.

    The politics and actual mechanics of Brexit are horrendously complicated. What I hadn't fully appreciated until now is that, never mind negotiating with our 27 EU friends, we'll also need to negotiate a new status within the WTO - an organisation necessarily so sclerotic because of its 170 members that it makes the EU look like a model of quick decisiveness. The problem is that, although we are members of the WTO in our own right, all of the tariff schedules and other WTO arrangements we are currently signed up to will have to be re-negotiated because they exist only as part of our EU membership - and that's just to maintain the current trading position with non-EU countries. That includes negotiating with countries like Argentina which are not well-disposed towards us.

    That is of course separate from the challenge of trying to do new trade deals, but interacts with it. For example, the EU-Korea trade deal contains a clause saying Korea can't grant more favourable terms to anyone else.

    Overall, as the dust has settled after the referendum the challenge looks no easier than it did before. If anything, it looks worse as attention has belatedly begun to be given to what should actually happen.

    I was looking at rebalancing my portfolio back towards the UK to take advantage of some of the price drops of UK-focused companies, which I'd thought were overdone. But, having looked a bit more at the detail, I've decided to do the opposite; the prospects for the UK over the next few years look pretty dire to me.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Hands up who respects Andy Burnham?

    Actually I do.

    He did so much good work on the Hillsborough disaster inquiry, when very few were interested.
    Fair enough. A good piece of work there but badly let down by his subsequent performances, particularly as Health Secretary.

    I just don't see any leadership capability in him. He's a natural 1st lieutenant.
    Burnham's support for the Hillsborough campaign was the kind of work that a good backbench MP does on a single-issue mission, rather than being evidence of leadership material.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Why it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world... but for Manchester?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PolhomeEditor: New Labour NEC member Rhea Wolfson says there needs to be "a conversation" about mandatory reselection of MPs. Fancy that ...
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    ydoethur said:

    @HurstLlama

    If you're referring to selection, I skimmed through the posts. Based on my personal, very difficult time as an intelligent boy in a comprehensive school where laziness was prized, failure was rewarded and brilliance was usually met with actual violence - which undoubtedly held me back very considerably - I am in principle in favour of selection.

    I also taught in a really good grammar school in Gloucester which - oddly - made me more dubious about its merits. Because Gloucester does not oblige all pupils to sit the 11+, it was only sat by those children with pushy parents and often, the means to pay for private tuition. As my rather frustrated Head of Department, who had been to the same school I had, commented, 'We seem to be a school for those whose parents can't be bothered to fork out the fees for King's or Dean Close.' In fact, I think only five pupils that I taught there came from working class backgrounds.

    I confess I have no easy solutions to either problem. However, I have sometimes speculated that selection at 14 rather than 11, based on a universal non-coachable test (if such a thing can ever be formulated) might be the answer. That would allow those with great potential to dance ahead, and those who really will never cope at that level to be taught in different styles at a different pace. And after all, such a thing de facto happens anyway with setting and different subjects/exam tiers.

    But I think that is politically unacceptable. When I was in Bristol, we were given significant grief by the council for running a 'Gifted and Talented' Stream for 16 very able students (which incidentally was a Labour initiative). Because all children are obviously equally gifted and talented and picking a few as specially so was discriminatory to the rest. Small wonder that Bristol's schools have such dire results, eh?

    In an interesting example of this crassness, Steven Moffat, the rather unpleasant dogmatist famous for writing bad TV dramas, also once said that it was a scandal the school he formerly taught in was providing extra resources for able students 'because it meant the most education went to those who need it the least' - a rather terrifying arse-about-face attitude from an English teacher who clearly doesn't understand the basic principles of education.

    On your point about me being a 'possible' supporter of Simon, I am irresistibly reminded of the DUP member who asked what it would take for him to support Cameron's government - 'a couple of billion should do it' (not that I have a vote in Cannock, of course)!

    Thanks, Doc. I knew you would have some interesting points to make.

    I note you say selection at 14. What if we made it at 13 and called it "common entrance"?
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    (((Dan Hodges))) ‏@DPJHodges
    Andy Burnham is Switzerland.
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    LennonLennon Posts: 1,733
    HYUFD said:

    Now if UKIP can find a really impressive candidate (and that is a big if) then Burnham might yet prove to be another loser

    UKIP will never win Manchester, it voted Remain in EUref
    Point of order - City of Manchester voted Remain, but the 10 Authorities of Greater Manchester voted Leave (708,032 vs 616,359). (City of) Manchester, Stockport and Trafford were all for Remain, but Bolton, Bury, Oldham, Rochdale, Salford, Tameside and Wigan were all for Leave.
This discussion has been closed.