If true, Boris, DD and Fox need to start grovelling to Norway. The 'Norway Model' was a key element of Leave's propaganda. If that goes down the pan then we're seriously entitled to question the judgement of those who so confidently advocated it. The implication was that EFTA was in the bag and we just had to post the application.
There are two separate parts: EFTA and the EEA. To join EFTA we'd need the unanimous consent of the existing four members. To modify the EEA treaties to transfer from being EU members to non-EU members we'd need the unanimous consent of the three EEA/EFTA countries plus the EU27.
In addition, to re-work our WTO membership to separate our position from that of the EU we'll need to work through the WTO processes, involving 160 countries.
Lord only knows how Theresa May and her band can untangle that lot in any reasonable timescale.
Do you have a link to a discussion on the WTO issue? I don't think it was raised once during the campaign when it would have been quite relevant.
I think the Remain campaign has now shifted gear from voting to leave the EU is unthinkable (wrong answer: please re-run the vote) to acknowledging the referendum result, but pointing out that leaving the EU is practically impossible, so we may as well stay or as good as.
Thats them just moving on to the next stage of grief. Now some have moved to negotiation. Some of course are still trapped in anger or even denial. Most will get to acceptance in due course, but a very few probably never will, they are to be pitied, because they will live out the rest of their lives trapped in emotions they can't understand or control.
Of course if Remain HAD won the Leavers would have accepted it with a good grace and gone quiet. Just like they did last time, eh?
I dunno, Mr. Cole. Personally, and I said this on here before the vote, I would have carried on quietly and gently arguing for out in the same way I had for twenty years or so. However, to answer your point, the question of grief would not have arisen - there would have been no death, no fundamental change.
Some posters on here, and I mention no names, seem to be struggling to cope with the fact that they were so wrong in their predictions and what that means for their view of how the world works. Sad really.
Late Autumn/Spring next year is when it'll start to get fruity, with a burst of activity after the French/German elections.
Yes, this is very much the phoney war period.
The politics and actual mechanics of Brexit are horrendously complicated. What I hadn't fully appreciated until now is that, never mind negotiating with our 27 EU friends, we'll also need to negotiate a new status within the WTO - an organisation necessarily so sclerotic because of its 170 members that it makes the EU look like a model of quick decisiveness. The problem is that, although we are members of the WTO in our own right, all of the tariff schedules and other WTO arrangements we are currently signed up to will have to be re-negotiated because they exist only as part of our EU membership - and that's just to maintain the current trading position with non-EU countries. That includes negotiating with countries like Argentina which are not well-disposed towards us.
That is of course separate from the challenge of trying to do new trade deals, but interacts with it. For example, the EU-Korea trade deal contains a clause saying Korea can't grant more favourable terms to anyone else.
Overall, as the dust has settled after the referendum the challenge looks no easier than it did before. If anything, it looks worse as attention has belatedly begun to be given to what should actually happen.
I was looking at rebalancing my portfolio back towards the UK to take advantage of some of the price drops of UK-focused companies, which I'd thought were overdone. But, having looked a bit more at the detail, I've decided to do the opposite; the prospects for the UK over the next few years look pretty dire to me.
You aren't very good on EU predictions though, are you Richard? 70:30 REMAIN?
Has he ever acknowledged this? Whatever happened to humble pie?
He acknowledged it this morning when people reposted it. Several times.
Georgia is now voting way to the left of N.Carolina according to the polls.
N.Carolina joins a list of states with minimum movement (5% or less) against Trump, others include Florida, Arizona and Nevada.
On the other hand Missouri joins the list of states with record movement (10% or more) against Trump, others include Virginia, N.H., Georgia and Pennsylvania.
A very divergent picture, but if Trump is losing Georgia and Pennsylvania it doesn't matter.
Shouldn't the leader of a regional or county authority be called something other than "mayor"? It seems like yet another politically-motivated stretching of the English language. People would think you were an idiot if you said you were the mayor of Hertfordshire.
Maybe something like Governor
How about Duke?
Marquis for Manchester and Baron for Birmingham.
There is a Duke of Manchester and, as a subsidiary title, an earldom. No marquessate though (it'd be marquess in England; marquis is used in Scotland, France and so on).
No Baron Birmingham either (nor, unless 'Birmingham' were the surname, would there be: it'd be Baron X, of Birmingham.
Remain told us that only 6% of our laws came from the EU so that should not take long to correct.
We're barely going to have any of our laws changed on the day we formally leave the EU. We have taken on 10,000s of pages of legislation, mostly related to product specifications, and much of which is derived from WTO and other supranational bodies.
Our laws will diverge from the EU's over a matter of decades, but we'll still be enacting a lot of the more technical stuff - either because we're members of the EEA, or - more likely - because they are WTO in origin.
Mr. N., if you are talking about the decision to have a think about Hinkley Point, then TM was in my view absolutely correct, and if that pisses off the Chinese well, such is life and that is what the FCO is for.
The Hinkley Point project is in my view an abomination at every level. I hope HMG scraps it.
Yes, I was referring to that.
My point wasn't so much about the substance of the decision, but the manner of it. Announcing the delay at the last possible moment as the Chinese big-wigs were on their way to the celebratory shindig looked like deliberate rudeness, calculated to humiliate them. I don't think that was very clever.
Breaking up is always tough, but you need to be prepared to make that phone call at some point.
It polls like these that make me wonder what is going on in the USA:
N.Carolina PPP
Hillary 47 Trump 46
When things stabilise and Trump recovers in these states the net result could simply be that Hillary piles up votes in places that won't help her while falling behind in places she needs.
Mr. N., if you are talking about the decision to have a think about Hinkley Point, then TM was in my view absolutely correct, and if that pisses off the Chinese well, such is life and that is what the FCO is for.
The Hinkley Point project is in my view an abomination at every level. I hope HMG scraps it.
Yes, I was referring to that.
My point wasn't so much about the substance of the decision, but the manner of it. Announcing the delay at the last possible moment as the Chinese big-wigs were on their way to the celebratory shindig looked like deliberate rudeness, calculated to humiliate them. I don't think that was very clever.
Breaking up is always tough, but you need to be prepared to make that phone call at some point.
Yeah, but there could have been a discreet phone call a couple of weeks before saying that, whatever the EDF decision, there'd be a delay at our end.
Mr. N., if you are talking about the decision to have a think about Hinkley Point, then TM was in my view absolutely correct, and if that pisses off the Chinese well, such is life and that is what the FCO is for.
The Hinkley Point project is in my view an abomination at every level. I hope HMG scraps it.
Yes, I was referring to that.
My point wasn't so much about the substance of the decision, but the manner of it. Announcing the delay at the last possible moment as the Chinese big-wigs were on their way to the celebratory shindig looked like deliberate rudeness, calculated to humiliate them. I don't think that was very clever.
EDF and the Chinese had advance notice of the UK government decision and the Chinese were not on their way according to the Chinese. A media myth.
She is down by 4 among democrats and 4 among all adults from her peak, but Trump has fallen 5 points from his peak among all adults and 6 among republicans.
Anyway, the answer is simple: move into (or in my case, stay in) US-dollar denominated assets and income streams, especially since the risk of President Trump seems to be receding.
You mean you've filled your swimming pool with Brent Crude?
It polls like these that make me wonder what is going on in the USA:
N.Carolina PPP
Hillary 47 Trump 46
When things stabilise and Trump recovers in these states the net result could simply be that Hillary piles up votes in places that won't help her while falling behind in places she needs.
That, surely, is Trump's (theoretical) path to the Presidency.
The problem is that it's a very narrow path, because of the risk of falling back in the South: Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, Nevada. If he loses three of those four, he's going to really struggle to get to 270.
Shouldn't the leader of a regional or county authority be called something other than "mayor"? It seems like yet another politically-motivated stretching of the English language. People would think you were an idiot if you said you were the mayor of Hertfordshire.
Shouldn't the leader of a regional or county authority be called something other than "mayor"? It seems like yet another politically-motivated stretching of the English language. People would think you were an idiot if you said you were the mayor of Hertfordshire.
If true, Boris, DD and Fox need to start grovelling to Norway. The 'Norway Model' was a key element of Leave's propaganda. If that goes down the pan then we're seriously entitled to question the judgement of those who so confidently advocated it. The implication was that EFTA was in the bag and we just had to post the application.
There are two separate parts: EFTA and the EEA. To join EFTA we'd need the unanimous consent of the existing four members. To modify the EEA treaties to transfer from being EU members to non-EU members we'd need the unanimous consent of the three EEA/EFTA countries plus the EU27.
In addition, to re-work our WTO membership to separate our position from that of the EU we'll need to work through the WTO processes, involving 160 countries.
Lord only knows how Theresa May and her band can untangle that lot in any reasonable timescale.
Do you have a link to a discussion on the WTO issue? I don't think it was raised once during the campaign when it would have been quite relevant.
I think the Remain campaign has now shifted gear from voting to leave the EU is unthinkable (wrong answer: please re-run the vote) to acknowledging the referendum result, but pointing out that leaving the EU is practically impossible, so we may as well stay or as good as.
Thats them just moving on to the next stage of grief. Now some have moved to negotiation. Some of course are still trapped in anger or even denial. Most will get to acceptance in due course, but a very few probably never will, they are to be pitied, because they will live out the rest of their lives trapped in emotions they can't understand or control.
Of course if Remain HAD won the Leavers would have accepted it with a good grace and gone quiet. Just like they did last time, eh?
To be fair it was another 40 years before another vote on the matter!
It was 41 years before there was another referendum but there were plenty of votes in between, through the more usual medium of general elections, most notably the 1983 election where Labour was committed to withdrawal.
If true, Boris, DD and Fox need to start grovelling to Norway. The 'Norway Model' was a key element of Leave's propaganda. If that goes down the pan then we're seriously entitled to question the judgement of those who so confidently advocated it. The implication was that EFTA was in the bag and we just had to post the application.
Was it? I thought the idea was to leave the single market and seek a UK/EU FTA.
They had no idea at all they were prepared to commit to. Nor do they now. Do you think Theresa May would be going around parroting "Brexit means Brexit" if she had the slightest INKLING what Brexit does actually mean?
No one can know what Brexit means until negotiations with other countries is complete. Brexit terms are not in our gift.
Interesting that the Conservative Party, of which you if I remember, have been a long term supporter, has now become "Theresa May and her band".
Well, I've never made any secret of the fact that I don't rate Liam Fox, DD or Boris. None of them seems to me to be well qualified or have the right temperament for this incredibly difficult task.
I very much supported Theresa May as leader, but she's got a near-impossible job. I've also been a bit dismayed by some of her early decisions - at a time when we desperately need to build international alliances, was it really a good idea to piss off the Chinese so rudely, for example? We'll see how things turn out, but I'm not optimistic.
Mr. N., if you are talking about the decision to have a think about Hinkley Point, then TM was in my view absolutely correct, and if that pisses off the Chinese well, such is life and that is what the FCO is for.
The Hinkley Point project is in my view an abomination at every level. I hope HMG scraps it.
Hinkley point
- Environmental risk, Tick - Security risk, Tick - More expensive than alternatives, Tick - Vanity project, Tick
Why would the voters of Greater Manchester give a monkeys about who their mayoral candidates supported? Do you suppose we have nothing else that matters to us, or simply that we're so ignorant that we'd think being an Everton fan made someone unfit for office?
It polls like these that make me wonder what is going on in the USA:
N.Carolina PPP
Hillary 47 Trump 46
When things stabilise and Trump recovers in these states the net result could simply be that Hillary piles up votes in places that won't help her while falling behind in places she needs.
So far she is pilling up votes were she needs (Pennsylvania) and in unexpected places (Georgia, Missouri) while not gaining much traction in unexpected places (Florida, N.C. Nevada)
She has a net gain so far, if Trump can't win Pennsylvania or loses Georgia it doesn't matter if he wins Florida or N.C.
For Trump to win he needs to win all Romney states plus Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania. Or replace Pennsylvania with Nevada, Iowa, N.H and Maine.
Shouldn't the leader of a regional or county authority be called something other than "mayor"? It seems like yet another politically-motivated stretching of the English language. People would think you were an idiot if you said you were the mayor of Hertfordshire.
Totally off-topic: Bloomberg has a big article today about what the other 27 EU countries want from Brexit negotiations.
I was amused to discover that - apparently - the Austrians are opposed to us subsidising Hinckley Point.
Me too.
The Austrians raised objections to Hinckley Point arrangements some weeks ago.
Another reason to get out of the EU
Austria would probably object to France subsidising EDF to build HPC. So leaving the EU might make no difference.
Austria built a nuclear plant in 1978 and then mothballed it after a nationwide referendum. It's very anti-nuclear and will probably do all it can to block nuclear development elsewhere in Europe. So for that matter would Ireland which once sued the UK for the pollution of the Irish Sea, although it lost the case.
The real problem is that EDF still doesn't know if HPC would work. (The equivalent reactors in France and Finland don't.) According to Private Eye, EDF is still designing HPC and may be relieved that HM government didn't impose a penalty clause for non-performance (i.e., EDF could just walk away if the plant never generated electricity.)
Mr. N., if you are talking about the decision to have a think about Hinkley Point, then TM was in my view absolutely correct, and if that pisses off the Chinese well, such is life and that is what the FCO is for.
The Hinkley Point project is in my view an abomination at every level. I hope HMG scraps it.
Yes, I was referring to that.
My point wasn't so much about the substance of the decision, but the manner of it. Announcing the delay at the last possible moment as the Chinese big-wigs were on their way to the celebratory shindig looked like deliberate rudeness, calculated to humiliate them. I don't think that was very clever.
Breaking up is always tough, but you need to be prepared to make that phone call at some point.
Yeah, but there could have been a discreet phone call a couple of weeks before saying that, whatever the EDF decision, there'd be a delay at our end.
The Chinese delegation cancelled their trip to sign the contract in advance of the government's announcement so they must have been given a heads up. Hinkley is a bad deal and I'm glad that the current government might pull the plug. CCGTs please.
If true, Boris, DD and Fox need to start grovelling to Norway. The 'Norway Model' was a key element of Leave's propaganda. If that goes down the pan then we're seriously entitled to question the judgement of those who so confidently advocated it. The implication was that EFTA was in the bag and we just had to post the application.
There are two separate parts: EFTA and the EEA. To join EFTA we'd need the unanimous consent of the existing four members. To modify the EEA treaties to transfer from being EU members to non-EU members we'd need the unanimous consent of the three EEA/EFTA countries plus the EU27.
In addition, to re-work our WTO membership to separate our position from that of the EU we'll need to work through the WTO processes, involving 160 countries.
Lord only knows how Theresa May and her band can untangle that lot in any reasonable timescale.
There is a Duke of Manchester and, as a subsidiary title, an earldom. No marquessate though (it'd be marquess in England; marquis is used in Scotland, France and so on).
No Baron Birmingham either (nor, unless 'Birmingham' were the surname, would there be: it'd be Baron X, of Birmingham.
Sorry to go all Jack W.
Marquis in Scotland is only used for some of the pre 1707 peerages.
Mr. N., if you are talking about the decision to have a think about Hinkley Point, then TM was in my view absolutely correct, and if that pisses off the Chinese well, such is life and that is what the FCO is for.
The Hinkley Point project is in my view an abomination at every level. I hope HMG scraps it.
Yes, I was referring to that.
My point wasn't so much about the substance of the decision, but the manner of it. Announcing the delay at the last possible moment as the Chinese big-wigs were on their way to the celebratory shindig looked like deliberate rudeness, calculated to humiliate them. I don't think that was very clever.
I have no idea about the entertainment arrangements but the decision as to whether the project designed to produce 7% of the UK's electricity was made the day before in a foreign city. Furthermore it was by no means certain that the French, government-owned company, would actually agree to fork out the cash, given that they have yet to build such a nuclear plant to spec on time and on budget (how is that one in Finland getting on?).
If the French had chosen not to go ahead with the project then that would have been it. Stone dead, no need for HMG to do anything. From the view of HMG it probably looked like the Frogs would see sense, so why make an announcement, why do anything.?
Then the French announced that in the face of all arguments that they were prepared to go ahead with a project that would hurt them but hurt the hated English more and benefit the Chinese.
What sane UK PM would not have said, "Hang on, I think we need have a time for reflection"?
Mr. N., if you are talking about the decision to have a think about Hinkley Point, then TM was in my view absolutely correct, and if that pisses off the Chinese well, such is life and that is what the FCO is for.
The Hinkley Point project is in my view an abomination at every level. I hope HMG scraps it.
Yes, I was referring to that.
My point wasn't so much about the substance of the decision, but the manner of it. Announcing the delay at the last possible moment as the Chinese big-wigs were on their way to the celebratory shindig looked like deliberate rudeness, calculated to humiliate them. I don't think that was very clever.
I have no idea about the entertainment arrangements but the decision as to whether the project designed to produce 7% of the UK's electricity was made the day before in a foreign city. Furthermore it was by no means certain that the French, government-owned company, would actually agree to fork out the cash, given that they have yet to build such a nuclear plant to spec on time and on budget (how is that one in Finland getting on?).
If the French had chosen not to go ahead with the project then that would have been it. Stone dead, no need for HMG to do anything. From the view of HMG it probably looked like the Frogs would see sense, so why make an announcement, why do anything.?
Then the French announced that in the face of all arguments that they were prepared to go ahead with a project that would hurt them but hurt the hated English more and benefit the Chinese.
What sane UK PM would not have said, "Hang on, I think we need have a time for reflection"?
If the EFTA thing falls through and we're left high and dry, how long before a sizeable section of Tory MPs get cold feet and start agitating for a delay and a rethink? It's one thing to advocate leaving the EU in abstract; quite another when the living standards of your constituents are plummeting and you've got a seat to retain. As we saw with lots of Ozzy's tax reforms, many Tory MPs turn out to be gutless wonders when it gets too close to home. Interesting to see how they carry on when the Brexit honeymoon is over.
If the EFTA thing falls through and we're left high and dry, how long before a sizeable section of Tory MPs get cold feet and start agitating for a delay and a rethink? It's one thing to advocate leaving the EU in abstract; quite another when the living standards of your constituents are plummeting and you've got a seat to retain. As we saw with lots of Ozzy's tax reforms, many Tory MPs turn out to be gutless wonders when it gets too close to home. Interesting to see how they carry on when the Brexit honeymoon is over.
Totally off-topic: Bloomberg has a big article today about what the other 27 EU countries want from Brexit negotiations.
I was amused to discover that - apparently - the Austrians are opposed to us subsidising Hinckley Point.
Me too.
The Austrians raised objections to Hinckley Point arrangements some weeks ago.
Another reason to get out of the EU
Austria would probably object to France subsidising EDF to build HPC. So leaving the EU might make no difference.
Austria built a nuclear plant in 1978 and then mothballed it after a nationwide referendum. It's very anti-nuclear and will probably do all it can to block nuclear development elsewhere in Europe. So for that matter would Ireland which once sued the UK for the pollution of the Irish Sea, although it lost the case.
The real problem is that EDF still doesn't know if HPC would work. (The equivalent reactors in France and Finland don't.) According to Private Eye, EDF is still designing HPC and may be relieved that HM government didn't impose a penalty clause for non-performance (i.e., EDF could just walk away if the plant never generated electricity.)
Hinkley Point won't work, it's scientifically and practically impossible, it would bankrupt EDF and force the British government to bail it out (hence their demand for huge government subsidies for at least the next 35 years).
It's better to build many small power plants than a single large one, for if the large one is incapacitated you are stuffed.
If the EFTA thing falls through and we're left high and dry, how long before a sizeable section of Tory MPs get cold feet and start agitating for a delay and a rethink? It's one thing to advocate leaving the EU in abstract; quite another when the living standards of your constituents are plummeting and you've got a seat to retain. As we saw with lots of Ozzy's tax reforms, many Tory MPs turn out to be gutless wonders when it gets too close to home. Interesting to see how they carry on when the Brexit honeymoon is over.
The reek of desperation is a pathetic sight.
It's a 'Brexit honeymoon' now is it? That's a new one!
Mr. N., if you are talking about the decision to have a think about Hinkley Point, then TM was in my view absolutely correct, and if that pisses off the Chinese well, such is life and that is what the FCO is for.
The Hinkley Point project is in my view an abomination at every level. I hope HMG scraps it.
Yes, I was referring to that.
My point wasn't so much about the substance of the decision, but the manner of it. Announcing the delay at the last possible moment as the Chinese big-wigs were on their way to the celebratory shindig looked like deliberate rudeness, calculated to humiliate them. I don't think that was very clever.
I have no idea about the entertainment arrangements but the decision as to whether the project designed to produce 7% of the UK's electricity was made the day before in a foreign city. Furthermore it was by no means certain that the French, government-owned company, would actually agree to fork out the cash, given that they have yet to build such a nuclear plant to spec on time and on budget (how is that one in Finland getting on?).
If the French had chosen not to go ahead with the project then that would have been it. Stone dead, no need for HMG to do anything. From the view of HMG it probably looked like the Frogs would see sense, so why make an announcement, why do anything.?
Then the French announced that in the face of all arguments that they were prepared to go ahead with a project that would hurt them but hurt the hated English more and benefit the Chinese.
What sane UK PM would not have said, "Hang on, I think we need have a time for reflection"?
It is sad that we no longer have the ability to build those things on our own. I guess that's what you get for not building any in several decades...
Mr. N., if you are talking about the decision to have a think about Hinkley Point, then TM was in my view absolutely correct, and if that pisses off the Chinese well, such is life and that is what the FCO is for.
The Hinkley Point project is in my view an abomination at every level. I hope HMG scraps it.
Yes, I was referring to that.
My point wasn't so much about the substance of the decision, but the manner of it. Announcing the delay at the last possible moment as the Chinese big-wigs were on their way to the celebratory shindig looked like deliberate rudeness, calculated to humiliate them. I don't think that was very clever.
Breaking up is always tough, but you need to be prepared to make that phone call at some point.
Yeah, but there could have been a discreet phone call a couple of weeks before saying that, whatever the EDF decision, there'd be a delay at our end.
The Chinese delegation cancelled their trip to sign the contract in advance of the government's announcement so they must have been given a heads up. Hinkley is a bad deal and I'm glad that the current government might pull the plug. CCGTs please.
If the EFTA thing falls through and we're left high and dry, how long before a sizeable section of Tory MPs get cold feet and start agitating for a delay and a rethink? It's one thing to advocate leaving the EU in abstract; quite another when the living standards of your constituents are plummeting and you've got a seat to retain. As we saw with lots of Ozzy's tax reforms, many Tory MPs turn out to be gutless wonders when it gets too close to home. Interesting to see how they carry on when the Brexit honeymoon is over.
The reek of desperation is a pathetic sight.
It's a 'Brexit honeymoon' now is it? That's a new one!
You mean you don't want to honeymoon in a desolate nuclear wasteland? You don't know what you are missing...
There is a Duke of Manchester and, as a subsidiary title, an earldom. No marquessate though (it'd be marquess in England; marquis is used in Scotland, France and so on).
No Baron Birmingham either (nor, unless 'Birmingham' were the surname, would there be: it'd be Baron X, of Birmingham.
Sorry to go all Jack W.
Marquis in Scotland is only used for some of the pre 1707 peerages.
Mr. N., if you are talking about the decision to have a think about Hinkley Point, then TM was in my view absolutely correct, and if that pisses off the Chinese well, such is life and that is what the FCO is for.
The Hinkley Point project is in my view an abomination at every level. I hope HMG scraps it.
Yes, I was referring to that.
My point wasn't so much about the substance of the decision, but the manner of it. Announcing the delay at the last possible moment as the Chinese big-wigs were on their way to the celebratory shindig looked like deliberate rudeness, calculated to humiliate them. I don't think that was very clever.
I have no idea about the entertainment arrangements but the decision as to whether the project designed to produce 7% of the UK's electricity was made the day before in a foreign city. Furthermore it was by no means certain that the French, government-owned company, would actually agree to fork out the cash, given that they have yet to build such a nuclear plant to spec on time and on budget (how is that one in Finland getting on?).
If the French had chosen not to go ahead with the project then that would have been it. Stone dead, no need for HMG to do anything. From the view of HMG it probably looked like the Frogs would see sense, so why make an announcement, why do anything.?
Then the French announced that in the face of all arguments that they were prepared to go ahead with a project that would hurt them but hurt the hated English more and benefit the Chinese.
What sane UK PM would not have said, "Hang on, I think we need have a time for reflection"?
Although I think Hinkley Point is a basket case, and also note that the government hasn't actually canned the project, I think there is a potential act of bad faith here. Theresa May waited until the French side had made their own difficult decision on what was an agreed deal, only for Mrs May to pull the rug out from under them once she had got their sign-off. It doesn't encourage people to see Britain as a reliable partner.
There will certainly be politicians in each of the EFTA countries that will be concerned that the UK might dominate it if it rejoined.
But there will also be others who will be pleased that the UK might give it far greater profile, negotiating weight and access to emerging markets.
I think the big concern from the EFTA countries is that we are just planning to use them as a stepping stone. That is, we don't really want to join them, we're just planning to temporarily be a member until we've got some deals with the rest of the world.
I can understand that concern, but I don't think that need be a problem. As Switzerland has shown, EFTA doesn't really tie your hands as far as negotitaitons with the rest of the world. I guess their concern would be that we wouldn't be interested in the EFTA-Canada trade deal and the like.
Reading between the lines of that article, it becomes clear what this is really all about. The pro-EU elite in Norway are worried that the UK joining EFTA will open the way to Norway and the other EFTA states renegotiating the EEA treaty in an advantageous way (as the Icelanders and some other Norwegian parties have already openly said).
That would make the long-term plan the EU has (and which the pro-EU faction in Norway support) to collapse the EEA states into 'associate EU members' unviable.
Worse still, a better EEA might attract other new members...
Mr. N., if you are talking about the decision to have a think about Hinkley Point, then TM was in my view absolutely correct, and if that pisses off the Chinese well, such is life and that is what the FCO is for.
The Hinkley Point project is in my view an abomination at every level. I hope HMG scraps it.
Yes, I was referring to that.
My point wasn't so much about the substance of the decision, but the manner of it. Announcing the delay at the last possible moment as the Chinese big-wigs were on their way to the celebratory shindig looked like deliberate rudeness, calculated to humiliate them. I don't think that was very clever.
I have no idea about the entertainment arrangements but the decision as to whether the project designed to produce 7% of the UK's electricity was made the day before in a foreign city. Furthermore it was by no means certain that the French, government-owned company, would actually agree to fork out the cash, given that they have yet to build such a nuclear plant to spec on time and on budget (how is that one in Finland getting on?).
If the French had chosen not to go ahead with the project then that would have been it. Stone dead, no need for HMG to do anything. From the view of HMG it probably looked like the Frogs would see sense, so why make an announcement, why do anything.?
Then the French announced that in the face of all arguments that they were prepared to go ahead with a project that would hurt them but hurt the hated English more and benefit the Chinese.
What sane UK PM would not have said, "Hang on, I think we need have a time for reflection"?
Although I think Hinkley Point is a basket case, and also note that the government hasn't actually canned the project, I think there is a potential act of bad faith here. Theresa May waited until the French side had made their own difficult decision on what was an agreed deal, only for Mrs May to pull the rug out from under them once she had got their sign-off. It doesn't encourage people to see Britain as a reliable partner.
As I understand it, a final sign off by HMG was required. Hardly pulling the rug out from under them, but exercising the right to say no up until the deal is done.
Mr. N., if you are talking about the decision to have a think about Hinkley Point, then TM was in my view absolutely correct, and if that pisses off the Chinese well, such is life and that is what the FCO is for.
The Hinkley Point project is in my view an abomination at every level. I hope HMG scraps it.
Yes, I was referring to that.
My point wasn't so much about the substance of the decision, but the manner of it. Announcing the delay at the last possible moment as the Chinese big-wigs were on their way to the celebratory shindig looked like deliberate rudeness, calculated to humiliate them. I don't think that was very clever.
I have no idea about the entertainment arrangements but the decision as to whether the project designed to produce 7% of the UK's electricity was made the day before in a foreign city. Furthermore it was by no means certain that the French, government-owned company, would actually agree to fork out the cash, given that they have yet to build such a nuclear plant to spec on time and on budget (how is that one in Finland getting on?).
If the French had chosen not to go ahead with the project then that would have been it. Stone dead, no need for HMG to do anything. From the view of HMG it probably looked like the Frogs would see sense, so why make an announcement, why do anything.?
Then the French announced that in the face of all arguments that they were prepared to go ahead with a project that would hurt them but hurt the hated English more and benefit the Chinese.
What sane UK PM would not have said, "Hang on, I think we need have a time for reflection"?
It is sad that we no longer have the ability to build those things on our own. I guess that's what you get for not building any in several decades...
But you don't need them any more. Other forms of energy have become cheaper and safer since the 1980's, and more mass produced.
If nuclear power was that cheap or safe you would see businesses make nuclear powered laptops by now instead of solar powered ones.
You would see every corner drug store selling plutonium by 1985 to produce 1.21 gigawatts:
Mr. N., if you are talking about the decision to have a think about Hinkley Point, then TM was in my view absolutely correct, and if that pisses off the Chinese well, such is life and that is what the FCO is for.
The Hinkley Point project is in my view an abomination at every level. I hope HMG scraps it.
Yes, I was referring to that.
My point wasn't so much about the substance of the decision, but the manner of it. Announcing the delay at the last possible moment as the Chinese big-wigs were on their way to the celebratory shindig looked like deliberate rudeness, calculated to humiliate them. I don't think that was very clever.
I have no idea about the entertainment arrangements but the decision as to whether the project designed to produce 7% of the UK's electricity was made the day before in a foreign city. Furthermore it was by no means certain that the French, government-owned company, would actually agree to fork out the cash, given that they have yet to build such a nuclear plant to spec on time and on budget (how is that one in Finland getting on?).
If the French had chosen not to go ahead with the project then that would have been it. Stone dead, no need for HMG to do anything. From the view of HMG it probably looked like the Frogs would see sense, so why make an announcement, why do anything.?
Then the French announced that in the face of all arguments that they were prepared to go ahead with a project that would hurt them but hurt the hated English more and benefit the Chinese.
What sane UK PM would not have said, "Hang on, I think we need have a time for reflection"?
Point of order: EDF is not building the Finnish plant, that is being built by Areva for the Finnish power company. (Fortum? I forget my Nordic power companies sometimes...)
If nuclear power was that cheap or safe you would see businesses make nuclear powered laptops by now instead of solar powered ones.
You had me up until this point!
I've got a solar powered external battery for my laptop or mobile phone in case I go camping.
More to do with your argument that we don't have nuclear power laptops therefore it shouldn't be part of the UKs energy mix. I wonder how many solar panels would be required to provide 8% of the UKs electricity?
If nuclear power was that cheap or safe you would see businesses make nuclear powered laptops by now instead of solar powered ones.
You had me up until this point!
I've got a solar powered external battery for my laptop or mobile phone in case I go camping.
More to do with your argument that we don't have nuclear power laptops therefore it shouldn't be part of the UKs energy mix. I wonder how many solar panels would be required to provide 8% of the UKs electricity?
Many, but no one would be able to destroy them all.
If Hinkley Point fails or is incapacitated there goes 7% of the power supply in one hit, plus potential radiation clouds drifting over the country.
If nuclear power was that cheap or safe you would see businesses make nuclear powered laptops by now instead of solar powered ones.
You had me up until this point!
I've got a solar powered external battery for my laptop or mobile phone in case I go camping.
They're increasingly common: in a couple of years time laptops and tablets will have integrated solar panels, and while it won't be enough to power them on their own, it will allow them to be trickle recharged and to last longer between plug visits.
(Amazon is about to launch a solar cover for the the Kindle Oasis, which will give it 'infinite' capacity.)
If nuclear power was that cheap or safe you would see businesses make nuclear powered laptops by now instead of solar powered ones.
You had me up until this point!
I've got a solar powered external battery for my laptop or mobile phone in case I go camping.
More to do with your argument that we don't have nuclear power laptops therefore it shouldn't be part of the UKs energy mix. I wonder how many solar panels would be required to provide 8% of the UKs electricity?
Many, but no one would be able to destroy them all.
If Hinkley Point fails or is incapacitated there goes 7% of the power supply in one hit, plus potential radiation clouds drifting over the country.
The argument about supply being cut out goes for any power plant. You could even knock out the national grid without touching any of the power plants. Neither of these things has happened yet, so the risk is small.
The concern about a catastrophic disaster is a valid one, but one which is massively overplayed.
If nuclear power was that cheap or safe you would see businesses make nuclear powered laptops by now instead of solar powered ones.
You had me up until this point!
I've got a solar powered external battery for my laptop or mobile phone in case I go camping.
They're increasingly common: in a couple of years time laptops and tablets will have integrated solar panels, and while it won't be enough to power them on their own, it will allow them to be trickle recharged and to last longer between plug visits.
(Amazon is about to launch a solar cover for the the Kindle Oasis, which will give it 'infinite' capacity.)
Mr. N., if you are talking about the decision to have a think about Hinkley Point, then TM was in my view absolutely correct, and if that pisses off the Chinese well, such is life and that is what the FCO is for.
The Hinkley Point project is in my view an abomination at every level. I hope HMG scraps it.
Yes, I was referring to that.
My point wasn't so much about the substance of the decision, but the manner of it. Announcing the delay at the last possible moment as the Chinese big-wigs were on their way to the celebratory shindig looked like deliberate rudeness, calculated to humiliate them. I don't think that was very clever.
I have no idea about the entertainment arrangements but the decision as to whether the project designed to produce 7% of the UK's electricity was made the day before in a foreign city. Furthermore it was by no means certain that the French, government-owned company, would actually agree to fork out the cash, given that they have yet to build such a nuclear plant to spec on time and on budget (how is that one in Finland getting on?).
If the French had chosen not to go ahead with the project then that would have been it. Stone dead, no need for HMG to do anything. From the view of HMG it probably looked like the Frogs would see sense, so why make an announcement, why do anything.?
Then the French announced that in the face of all arguments that they were prepared to go ahead with a project that would hurt them but hurt the hated English more and benefit the Chinese.
What sane UK PM would not have said, "Hang on, I think we need have a time for reflection"?
Although I think Hinkley Point is a basket case, and also note that the government hasn't actually canned the project, I think there is a potential act of bad faith here. Theresa May waited until the French side had made their own difficult decision on what was an agreed deal, only for Mrs May to pull the rug out from under them once she had got their sign-off. It doesn't encourage people to see Britain as a reliable partner.
The government always had final say, the French and Chinese should have seen it coming as soon as Osborne was booted out of government, Hinkley has very little support at the prices agreed. If the government is able to negotiate a 50% reduction in the strike price it might go ahead with less opposition.
It polls like these that make me wonder what is going on in the USA:
N.Carolina PPP
Hillary 47 Trump 46
When things stabilise and Trump recovers in these states the net result could simply be that Hillary piles up votes in places that won't help her while falling behind in places she needs.
So far she is pilling up votes were she needs (Pennsylvania) and in unexpected places (Georgia, Missouri) while not gaining much traction in unexpected places (Florida, N.C. Nevada)
She has a net gain so far, if Trump can't win Pennsylvania or loses Georgia it doesn't matter if he wins Florida or N.C.
For Trump to win he needs to win all Romney states plus Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania. Or replace Pennsylvania with Nevada, Iowa, N.H and Maine.
Both approaches are currently blocked.
She is doing better than Obama in North Carolina, and in fact she is probably in the lead there, which Obama '12 of course wasn't. She leads in most N.C. polls by an insignificant margin, both before and after her convention. The situation for Mr Trump is negative but redeemable if he could win a mix of those two bunches of extra states.
If nuclear power was that cheap or safe you would see businesses make nuclear powered laptops by now instead of solar powered ones.
You had me up until this point!
I've got a solar powered external battery for my laptop or mobile phone in case I go camping.
They're increasingly common: in a couple of years time laptops and tablets will have integrated solar panels, and while it won't be enough to power them on their own, it will allow them to be trickle recharged and to last longer between plug visits.
(Amazon is about to launch a solar cover for the the Kindle Oasis, which will give it 'infinite' capacity.)
Have you seen the flexible solar film? It looks like something that could be used on top of accessories with a capacitor and ower transformer system in built to power phones and other devices.
If nuclear power was that cheap or safe you would see businesses make nuclear powered laptops by now instead of solar powered ones.
You had me up until this point!
I've got a solar powered external battery for my laptop or mobile phone in case I go camping.
They're increasingly common: in a couple of years time laptops and tablets will have integrated solar panels, and while it won't be enough to power them on their own, it will allow them to be trickle recharged and to last longer between plug visits.
(Amazon is about to launch a solar cover for the the Kindle Oasis, which will give it 'infinite' capacity.)
I used to have a solar powered calculator.
I used to have a calculator with 4 functions AND a square root facility. - Cost £10.00, sometime in 1975. A Brother.
My friend had one that when 0/0 was entered just had the numbers whizzing round and another had a Sinclair Cambridge - as usual from Sinclair totally impracticable - and when I got to College the Sidney Sussex Library had one using reverse Polish Logic! Try explaining to a non-mathematician how that worked!
If nuclear power was that cheap or safe you would see businesses make nuclear powered laptops by now instead of solar powered ones.
You had me up until this point!
I've got a solar powered external battery for my laptop or mobile phone in case I go camping.
They're increasingly common: in a couple of years time laptops and tablets will have integrated solar panels, and while it won't be enough to power them on their own, it will allow them to be trickle recharged and to last longer between plug visits.
(Amazon is about to launch a solar cover for the the Kindle Oasis, which will give it 'infinite' capacity.)
We have a superb low-tech solar clothes drying system - a washing line
If nuclear power was that cheap or safe you would see businesses make nuclear powered laptops by now instead of solar powered ones.
You had me up until this point!
I've got a solar powered external battery for my laptop or mobile phone in case I go camping.
They're increasingly common: in a couple of years time laptops and tablets will have integrated solar panels, and while it won't be enough to power them on their own, it will allow them to be trickle recharged and to last longer between plug visits.
(Amazon is about to launch a solar cover for the the Kindle Oasis, which will give it 'infinite' capacity.)
We have a superb low-tech solar clothes drying system - a washing line
If nuclear power was that cheap or safe you would see businesses make nuclear powered laptops by now instead of solar powered ones.
You had me up until this point!
I've got a solar powered external battery for my laptop or mobile phone in case I go camping.
They're increasingly common: in a couple of years time laptops and tablets will have integrated solar panels, and while it won't be enough to power them on their own, it will allow them to be trickle recharged and to last longer between plug visits.
(Amazon is about to launch a solar cover for the the Kindle Oasis, which will give it 'infinite' capacity.)
I used to have a solar powered calculator.
I used to have a calculator with 4 functions AND a square root facility. - Cost £10.00, sometime in 1975. A Brother.
My friend had one that when 0/0 was entered just had the numbers whizzing round and another had a Sinclair Cambridge - as usual from Sinclair totally impracticable - and when I got to College the Sidney Sussex Library had one using reverse Polish Logic! Try explaining to a non-mathematician how that worked!
Ah, reverse polish! Got one on my desk right here - last a lifetime because the fewer key strokes needed give less wear and tear.
John Nicloson Scotland most atheist part of the British Isles. What an astonishing shift. Results closely mirror Scandinavia. https://t.co/u8ubBh8iWQ
As with Wales. Over a generation, Nonconformism has collapsed in Wales and Church of Scotland membership has collapsed North of the Border. Yet, historically the most secular part of the UK, London, has seen attendances surge.
If nuclear power was that cheap or safe you would see businesses make nuclear powered laptops by now instead of solar powered ones.
You had me up until this point!
I've got a solar powered external battery for my laptop or mobile phone in case I go camping.
They're increasingly common: in a couple of years time laptops and tablets will have integrated solar panels, and while it won't be enough to power them on their own, it will allow them to be trickle recharged and to last longer between plug visits.
(Amazon is about to launch a solar cover for the the Kindle Oasis, which will give it 'infinite' capacity.)
I used to have a solar powered calculator.
I used to have a calculator with 4 functions AND a square root facility. - Cost £10.00, sometime in 1975. A Brother.
My friend had one that when 0/0 was entered just had the numbers whizzing round and another had a Sinclair Cambridge - as usual from Sinclair totally impracticable - and when I got to College the Sidney Sussex Library had one using reverse Polish Logic! Try explaining to a non-mathematician how that worked!
I remember programming in Forth back in the day. Mind you, I've always sought out opportunities to use exotic languages. APL is not for the fainthearted, though I draw the line at Brainfuck.
John Nicloson Scotland most atheist part of the British Isles. What an astonishing shift. Results closely mirror Scandinavia. https://t.co/u8ubBh8iWQ
As with Wales. Over a generation, Nonconformism has collapsed in Wales and Church of Scotland membership has collapsed North of the Border. Yet, historically the most secular part of the UK, London, has seen attendances surge.
It's probably a reflection of where recent immigration is highest.
John Nicloson Scotland most atheist part of the British Isles. What an astonishing shift. Results closely mirror Scandinavia. https://t.co/u8ubBh8iWQ
As with Wales. Over a generation, Nonconformism has collapsed in Wales and Church of Scotland membership has collapsed North of the Border. Yet, historically the most secular part of the UK, London, has seen attendances surge.
It's probably a reflection of where recent immigration is highest.
The Catholic churches in Hereford are going gangbusters.
If nuclear power was that cheap or safe you would see businesses make nuclear powered laptops by now instead of solar powered ones.
You had me up until this point!
I've got a solar powered external battery for my laptop or mobile phone in case I go camping.
They're increasingly common: in a couple of years time laptops and tablets will have integrated solar panels, and while it won't be enough to power them on their own, it will allow them to be trickle recharged and to last longer between plug visits.
(Amazon is about to launch a solar cover for the the Kindle Oasis, which will give it 'infinite' capacity.)
I used to have a solar powered calculator.
I used to have a calculator with 4 functions AND a square root facility. - Cost £10.00, sometime in 1975. A Brother.
My friend had one that when 0/0 was entered just had the numbers whizzing round and another had a Sinclair Cambridge - as usual from Sinclair totally impracticable - and when I got to College the Sidney Sussex Library had one using reverse Polish Logic! Try explaining to a non-mathematician how that worked!
Ah, reverse polish! Got one on my desk right here - last a lifetime because the fewer key strokes needed give less wear and tear.
AFP German special forces arrest suspect member of IS group, citing threat to opening game of #Bundesliga championship https://t.co/WCcSLwEEdv
Golly, he's a Syrian refugee
Known locally as Dave?
His Identity, nationality and religious persuasion has not been revealed. We won’t know much more about him until someone has linked him to Anders Breivik…
Comments
Some posters on here, and I mention no names, seem to be struggling to cope with the fact that they were so wrong in their predictions and what that means for their view of how the world works. Sad really.
N.Carolina PPP
Hillary 47
Trump 46
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2016/08/clinton-leads-in-nc-for-first-time-since-march.html
Georgia is now voting way to the left of N.Carolina according to the polls.
N.Carolina joins a list of states with minimum movement (5% or less) against Trump, others include Florida, Arizona and Nevada.
On the other hand Missouri joins the list of states with record movement (10% or more) against Trump, others include Virginia, N.H., Georgia and Pennsylvania.
A very divergent picture, but if Trump is losing Georgia and Pennsylvania it doesn't matter.
No Baron Birmingham either (nor, unless 'Birmingham' were the surname, would there be: it'd be Baron X, of Birmingham.
Sorry to go all Jack W.
Our laws will diverge from the EU's over a matter of decades, but we'll still be enacting a lot of the more technical stuff - either because we're members of the EEA, or - more likely - because they are WTO in origin.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/189299/presidential-election-2016-key-indicators.aspx?g_source=ELECTION_2016&g_medium=topic&g_campaign=tiles
She is down by 4 among democrats and 4 among all adults from her peak, but Trump has fallen 5 points from his peak among all adults and 6 among republicans.
The problem is that it's a very narrow path, because of the risk of falling back in the South: Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, Nevada. If he loses three of those four, he's going to really struggle to get to 270.
No one can know what Brexit means until negotiations with other countries is complete. Brexit terms are not in our gift.
Scotland most atheist part of the British Isles. What an astonishing shift. Results closely mirror Scandinavia. https://t.co/u8ubBh8iWQ
Peak Hillary was in 1953.
I thought they were SNPists.
That's a religion - right?
She has a net gain so far, if Trump can't win Pennsylvania or loses Georgia it doesn't matter if he wins Florida or N.C.
For Trump to win he needs to win all Romney states plus Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania.
Or replace Pennsylvania with Nevada, Iowa, N.H and Maine.
Both approaches are currently blocked.
Austria built a nuclear plant in 1978 and then mothballed it after a nationwide referendum. It's very anti-nuclear and will probably do all it can to block nuclear development elsewhere in Europe. So for that matter would Ireland which once sued the UK for the pollution of the Irish Sea, although it lost the case.
The real problem is that EDF still doesn't know if HPC would work. (The equivalent reactors in France and Finland don't.) According to Private Eye, EDF is still designing HPC and may be relieved that HM government didn't impose a penalty clause for non-performance (i.e., EDF could just walk away if the plant never generated electricity.)
Not sorry at all to go all JackW ....
If the French had chosen not to go ahead with the project then that would have been it. Stone dead, no need for HMG to do anything. From the view of HMG it probably looked like the Frogs would see sense, so why make an announcement, why do anything.?
Then the French announced that in the face of all arguments that they were prepared to go ahead with a project that would hurt them but hurt the hated English more and benefit the Chinese.
What sane UK PM would not have said, "Hang on, I think we need have a time for reflection"?
If the French had chosen not to go ahead with the project then that would have been it. Stone dead, no need for HMG to do anything. From the view of HMG it probably looked like the Frogs would see sense, so why make an announcement, why do anything.?
Then the French announced that in the face of all arguments that they were prepared to go ahead with a project that would hurt them but hurt the hated English more and benefit the Chinese.
What sane UK PM would not have said, "Hang on, I think we need have a time for reflection"?
It's better to build many small power plants than a single large one, for if the large one is incapacitated you are stuffed.
Amazing footage from 1971 of a BBC journalist pinching men's bottoms in the street, in the name of sexual equality. https://t.co/hD6a82L1WM
That would make the long-term plan the EU has (and which the pro-EU faction in Norway support) to collapse the EEA states into 'associate EU members' unviable.
Worse still, a better EEA might attract other new members...
Other forms of energy have become cheaper and safer since the 1980's, and more mass produced.
If nuclear power was that cheap or safe you would see businesses make nuclear powered laptops by now instead of solar powered ones.
You would see every corner drug store selling plutonium by 1985 to produce 1.21 gigawatts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-77xulkB_U
At this rate the Japanese will end up winning their own World Cup
If Hinkley Point fails or is incapacitated there goes 7% of the power supply in one hit, plus potential radiation clouds drifting over the country.
All solar power is nuclear...
"Just as this race seems other, they keep pulling me back in"
https://twitter.com/guardiannews/status/763045329197490176
https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/763037851487309824
Now where is Y0kel, to tell about any plans to get rid of Hillary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoASZyihalc
(Amazon is about to launch a solar cover for the the Kindle Oasis, which will give it 'infinite' capacity.)
The concern about a catastrophic disaster is a valid one, but one which is massively overplayed.
My friend had one that when 0/0 was entered just had the numbers whizzing round and another had a Sinclair Cambridge - as usual from Sinclair totally impracticable - and when I got to College the Sidney Sussex Library had one using reverse Polish Logic! Try explaining to a non-mathematician how that worked!
ICYMI: Can polls be trusted? Read our July essay discussing the state of polling. https://t.co/kohbpboQmz
German special forces arrest suspect member of IS group, citing threat to opening game of #Bundesliga championship https://t.co/WCcSLwEEdv
Golly, he's a Syrian refugee
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37025198
The story about the Orlando shooters dad endorsing her is weird. His homophobia was probably a contributing factor in his son becoming so messed up.
no-one it understands but