Just been to the Harper Collins summer party. It's always luxe but this was impressive: oysters for everyone, a Taj Mahal of sashimi, freely flowing champagne, a thousand people in the courtyard of the V&A
Some lovely women.
It felt like Paris having one last party before the blitzkrieg, and yet it also felt like Nothing Has Changed.
You talked to one person and they'd go from insouciance to depression and back again, in 20 minutes.
In the meantime there are boundary changes coming up which will necessitate everyone being deselected, and Corbyn will no doubt try and weaken further the role of the MPs in deciding the Party leadership in future.
How many seats will be affected?
All 600 of the new, slightly larger, seats. Down from 650 now. Areas with large numbers of contiguous seats held by a single party will need to lose an MP or two, others may find their usually safe seat has suddenly become marginal - or vice versa.
I think Orkney & Shetland is about the only completely unaffected seat. (And probably about the only LibDem hold.)
It will be interesting to see what they manage is Wales. I've yet to see any seat maps that don't involve some pretty major compromises. (Three seats for two towns twenty miles apart, with one seat making a funny lozenge shape between them, for example.)
Yes. The boundary changes are pretty bonkers as many don't reflect natural geographies. I think it's fairly unlikely they will happen anyway, the Tory backbench are opposed.
I thought the legislation had already passed?
It has been. Which many seem to have forgotten.
The legislation for the boundaries review has been passed. But Commons approval is required to actually enact the review's recommendations.
Correct. It will report in 2018 and require a single vote in the Commons to pass. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Periodic_Review_of_Westminster_constituencies There was talk a few months ago of the government trying to be able to implement the review by Statutory Instrument rather than a vote, on the basis that the MPs might not like a reduction in the number of MPs, but can't find with a quick search any more details on that.
Just been to the Harper Collins summer party. It's always luxe but this was impressive: oysters for everyone, a Taj Mahal of sashimi, freely flowing champagne, a thousand people in the courtyard of the V&A
Some lovely women.
It felt like Paris having one last party before the blitzkrieg, and yet it also felt like Nothing Has Changed.
You talked to one person and they'd go from insouciance to depression and back again, in 20 minutes.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
Corbyn and his supporters have no interest in defeating the Tories. They want to control the Labour party and make it an extra-Parliamentary force. The proletariat will win on the streets not in the bourgeois surroundings of the Commons. Or something like that. They genuinely do not care if the Tories rule for another 30 years. The struggle is far more important. I think a breakaway is now the only option for anyone on the left who wants an alternative to a Tory government. It will take a long time, but less time than the hard left will have to wait.
I honestly despise the people on the left who are allowing this.
I am trying very hard not to. But clearly a lot of Labour members have decided that defeating the Tories is not a priority. I guess a lot of them are comfortably off and don't really feel any downside of there being a Tory government. The arguments are all abstract rather than make or break. It's clear, though, that Labour is now finished as a credible force in British politics. An alternative is needed.
That article still says there'll be a challenge by Angela Eagle. At least we'd know how things stand. If the YouGov poll on Labour members was right, he'd have a much reduced lead compared to when he was elected at least.
This and the talk here of new parties ignore the fundamental point that the centre-right of the party currently have neither a popular leader nor a popular platform. If they can't even find a viable candidate to stand within the party - which takes almost no effort whatever beyond signing a piece of paper and getting some signatures - how are they going to go about the Herculean task of setting up an entirely new party? You can't do that just with money - you need popular figures and attractive policies, and if they had them they could win without splitting. They have been putting the cart (Beat Corbyn!) before the horse (Develop an alternative) ever since before he was elected.
Does a viable centre-right project (in party terms) actually still exist, as it clearly did under Tony Blair? That's the fundamental question. If it does, then everything else is tactics.
Personally, I think a compromise involving acceptance of the basic anti-austerity agenda and joint leadership with Jeremy as national chair and people like Owen and McDonnell leading the Parliamentary charge may be the most viable practical way forward. I don't think most of the PLP is really still bent on centre-right policies - they just want a more forceful Parliamentary leader.
They want a credible alternative to the Tories at a time of pivotal importance to the country and they know that a party led by Jeremy Corbyn will never be that alternative. It is not the centre right in the PLP that has said Corbyn is not up to the job, it is everyone except a handful of MPs. Clearly, though, for many party members and trade unionists having Corbyn in charge is more important than defeating the Tories. Were he to stand down, the centre right would not take over. Party members would decide who would be in charge. But that's not going to happen. Instead, we will watch Labour wither away and die. Eventually something new will emerge to take its place. But neither you or I will be around to see it.
Labour rebels are in retreat after admitting that Jeremy Corbyn cannot be removed and would "win easily" if a leadership election is triggered.
It's taken them this long to realise it?
After the front bench fiasco there were only 2 options - put up and shut up or go and form a new party.
.
A good point! Thanks!
More accurate to say that Blair couldn't see what he ought to do; i.e., to accept the Jenkins recommendations on PR so that they couldn't get stuck in another period like 1979-97. If we had PR, a split wouldn't be so harmful. Two parties on 20% each would get as many seats as one party on 40%, actually in 1983 I think the two between them had over 45%? .
Absolutely right that of all New Labour's disappointments and broken promises, their failure to implement electoral reform when they had the chance (having used this promise cynically to gather in support from across the centre-left) has ultimately done their own party, as well as the country, the most damage.
There are some hopeful signs that, following on from the EUref, people from a variety of parties are starting to realise this and explore what common ground there might be for taking forward a shared platform for reform. But of course this is being done from a position now of huge weakness.
Meanwhile Nick is right that, for all the futility of corbynite politics, the so-called Blairite wing of the party offers nothing now but a dead end, with no platform and no persuasive leaders. People keep drawing parallels with the 1980s but, whatever you think of them, the leading defectors back then were major political figures, who brought a lot of both activists and ordinary people with them, and with clear and distinctive policy differences that set them apart from Labour and ultimately led most of them into the Liberal Democrats. Despite the huge hurdle of the voting system this tradition has, just about, survived in British politics. I cannot see that the anti-Corbyn body of MPs have any of these assets nor any chance of pulling off something similar to the SDP.
Sadly, the only conclusion I can reach is that nothing will really change with Labour until the party is shattered by dramatic electoral defeat. And then hope that from the wreckage some sort of new politics can be reconstructed.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them into the ditch, he thinks he is reshaping them into a more moral and populist force, and he seems to have seen off intense attacks on his position and therefore the movement he is trying foster. That's a personal success of which many would be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
More nonsense. I correctly construed the Labour rules, ad nauseam, over a year ago, even before Corbyn was elected.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
Labour's only chance would be to find a candidate meeting the following criteria.
a) charismatic, at least as much as JC [the initials say it all] b) non "careerist" c) non-Blairite d) not tainted by Iraq e) non-metropolitan
None of the currently-mentioned names come remotely close to meeting all of the above. Does Labour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
In the meantime there are boundary changes coming up which will necessitate everyone being deselected, and Corbyn will no doubt try and weaken further the role of the MPs in deciding the Party leadership in future.
How many seats will be affected?
All 600 of the new, slightly larger, seats. Down from 650 now. Areas with large numbers of contiguous seats held by a single party will need to lose an MP or two, others may find their usually safe seat has suddenly become marginal - or vice versa.
I think Orkney & Shetland is about the only completely unaffected seat. (And probably about the only LibDem hold.)
It will be interesting to see what they manage is Wales. I've yet to see any seat maps that don't involve some pretty major compromises. (Three seats for two towns twenty miles apart, with one seat making a funny lozenge shape between them, for example.)
Yes. The boundary changes are pretty bonkers as many don't reflect natural geographies. I think it's fairly unlikely they will happen anyway, the Tory backbench are opposed.
I thought the legislation had already passed?
It has been. Which many seem to have forgotten.
The legislation for the boundaries review has been passed. But Commons approval is required to actually enact the review's recommendations.
Correct. It will report in 2018 and require a single vote in the Commons to pass. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Periodic_Review_of_Westminster_constituencies There was talk a few months ago of the government trying to be able to implement the review by Statutory Instrument rather than a vote, on the basis that the MPs might not like a reduction in the number of MPs, but can't find with a quick search any more details on that.
This sort of thing should be taken out of the hands of MPs anyway - they are too invested in the outcomes to be acceptable as the arbiters.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them into the ditch, he thinks he is reshaping them into a more moral and populist force, and he seems to have seen off intense attacks on his position and therefore the movement he is trying foster. That's a personal success of which many would be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
More nonsense. I correctly construed the Labour rules, ad nauseam, over a year ago, even before Corbyn was elected.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
Labour's only chance would be to find a candidate meeting the following criteria.
a) charismatic, at least as much as JC [the initials say it all] b) non "careerist" c) non-Blairite d) not tainted by Iraq e) non-metropolitan
None of the currently-mentioned names come remotely close to meeting all of the above. Does Labour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them into the ditch, he thinks he is reshaping them into a more moral and populist force, and he seems to have seen off intense attacks on his position and therefore the movement he is trying foster. That's a personal success of which many would be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
More nonsense. I correctly construed the Labour rules, ad nauseam, over a year ago, even before Corbyn was elected.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
Labour's only chance would be to find a candidate meeting the following criteria.
a) charismatic, at least as mch as JC [the initials say it all] b) non "careerist" c) non-Blairite d) not tainted by Iraq e) non-metropolitan
None of the currently-mentioned names come remotely close to meeting all of the above. Does Labour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
As I've said all along, "Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same as "there is someone else who would do better than Corbyn".
The PLP can throw all the toddler tantrums they like, but the membership is only going to vote for a change when an alternative candidate is presented, with an alternative platform, with convincing reasons for why that candidate/platform would perform better in a general election than Corbyn. Pushing forward lightweights like Angela Eagle, with platforms which sound suspiciously like the inept "Remain" campaign, do not come close to meeting any of those tests.
In the meantime there are boundary changes coming up which will necessitate everyone being deselected, and Corbyn will no doubt try and weaken further the role of the MPs in deciding the Party leadership in future.
How many seats will be affected?
All 600 of the new, slightly larger, seats. Down from 650 now. Areas with large numbers of contiguous seats held by a single party will need to lose an MP or two, others may find their usually safe seat has suddenly become marginal - or vice versa.
I think Orkney & Shetland is about the only completely unaffected seat. (And probably about the only LibDem hold.)
It will be interesting to see what they manage is Wales. I've yet to see any seat maps that don't involve some pretty major compromises. (Three seats for two towns twenty miles apart, with one seat making a funny lozenge shape between them, for example.)
Yes. The boundary changes are pretty bonkers as many don't reflect natural geographies. I think it's fairly unlikely they will happen anyway, the Tory backbench are opposed.
I thought the legislation had already passed?
It has been. Which many seem to have forgotten.
The legislation for the boundaries review has been passed. But Commons approval is required to actually enact the review's recommendations.
Correct. It will report in 2018 and require a single vote in the Commons to pass. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Periodic_Review_of_Westminster_constituencies There was talk a few months ago of the government trying to be able to implement the review by Statutory Instrument rather than a vote, on the basis that the MPs might not like a reduction in the number of MPs, but can't find with a quick search any more details on that.
This sort of thing should be taken out of the hands of MPs anyway - they are too invested in the outcomes to be acceptable as the arbiters.
You know, I hear this guy called Juncker's going to be free soon. Tonnes of experience, really sound. Maybe he should be put in charge.
As I've said all along, "Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same as "there is someone else who would do better than Corbyn".
The PLP can throw all the toddler tantrums they like, but the membership is only going to vote for a change when an alternative candidate is presented, with an alternative platform, with convincing reasons for why that candidate/platform would perform better in a general election than Corbyn. Pushing forward lightweights like Angela Eagle, with platforms which sound suspiciously like the inept "Remain" campaign, do not come close to meeting any of those tests.
A leadership bid would give Angela Eagle a great platform to defend the Iraq War she voted for...
That article still says there'll be a challenge by Angela Eagle. At least we'd know how things stand. If the YouGov poll on Labour members was right, he'd have a much reduced lead compared to when he was elected at least.
This and the talk here of new parties ignore the fundamental point that the centre-right of the party currently have neither a popular leader nor a popular platform. If they can't even find a viable candidate to stand within the party - which takes almost no effort whatever beyond signing a piece of paper and getting some signatures - how are they going to go about the Herculean task of setting up an entirely new party? You can't do that just with money - you need popular figures and attractive policies, and if they had them they could win without splitting. They have been putting the cart (Beat Corbyn!) before the horse (Develop an alternative) ever since before he was elected.
Does a viable centre-right project (in party terms) actually still exist, as it clearly did under Tony Blair? That's the fundamental question. If it does, then everything else is tactics.
Personally, I think a compromise involving acceptance of the basic anti-austerity agenda and joint leadership with Jeremy as national chair and people like Owen and McDonnell leading the Parliamentary charge may be the most viable practical way forward. I don't think most of the PLP is really still bent on centre-right policies - they just want a more forceful Parliamentary leader.
You still don't get it. Corbyn and the far left are flooding the membership with far left fanatics making it impossible for anyone to beat Corbyn unless he stands down. The rules are barmy, but they are the rules. There is plenty of talent in the PLP but it's impossible to for anyone outside the tiny far left grouping to win regardless of how good they are, because they are not true believers. How can you possibly defend the situation? The rebellion is gigantic - 80% of Labour MPs, a constitutional defeat for the leader of epic - possibly unprecedented - proportions, yet Corbyn stays. It's fanaticism. Nothing less.
Sadly, a lot of members have decided that having Corbyn in charge is more important than seeking to defeat the Tories. It's inexplicable as far as I am concerned, but it is what it is. The Labour party has taken the decision to be irrelevant and will now wither and die. The Tories will have a free hand to do as they wish. Corbynistas will bear a large responsibility for what happens. Their protests and howls of social media outrage will be so many empty words. It will be their fault.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
Corbyn and his supporters have no interest in defeating the Tories. They want to control the Labour party and make it an extra-Parliamentary force. The proletariat will win on the streets not in the bourgeois surroundings of the Commons. Or something like that. They genuinely do not care if the Tories rule for another 30 years. The struggle is far more important. I think a breakaway is now the only option for anyone on the left who wants an alternative to a Tory government. It will take a long time, but less time than the hard left will have to wait.
A split seems inevitable, now.
A bit of a shame for Britain when a viable and sensible opposition would be quite handy, but there we go.
What amazes me is the lack of leftwing hunger: for actual power. It's a species of defeatism. "We can never win an election and change anything, but at least we can be pure and feel good".
I wonder if we are seeing the final, unwinding defeat of the Left, which began with the fall of communism in 1989. The future might be sensible centre right parties versus populist hard right parties. The state of Europe suggests this is the case.
My Oxford Momentum friend was saying only a couple of days ago that she really wanted to see a Socialist Utopia come to pass with the help of Corbyn. Then said she didn't actually want to live here if that were ever to happen.
Labour by and large has done its job. It's like public libraries - created to promote literacy, now acting as leisure centres - long after their original purpose was achieved.
We have a national health service, excellent worker's rights and generous welfare and pension systems.
Perhaps it should retire with the grateful thanks of the nation. Well done, thou good and faithful servant etc.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them into the ditch, he thinks he is reshaping them into a more moral and populist force, and he seems to have seen off intense attacks on his position and therefore the movement he is trying foster. That's a personal success of which many would be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
More nonsense. I correctly construed the Labour rules, ad nauseam, over a year ago, even before Corbyn was elected.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
Labour's only chance would be to find a candidate meeting the following criteria.
a) charismatic, at least as much as JC [the initials say it all] b) non "careerist" c) non-Blairite d) not tainted by Iraq e) non-metropolitan
None of the currently-mentioned names come remotely close to meeting all of the above. Does Labour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speaking personally, I would have no problem in principle with Tom Watson, however I genuinely believe he is less electable than Corbyn.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
Corbyn and his supporters have no interest in defeating the Tories. They want to control the Labour party and make it an extra-Parliamentary force. The proletariat will win on the streets not in the bourgeois surroundings of the Commons. Or something like that. They genuinely do not care if the Tories rule for another 30 years. The struggle is far more important. I think a breakaway is now the only option for anyone on the left who wants an alternative to a Tory government. It will take a long time, but less time than the hard left will have to wait.
A split seems inevitable, now.
A bit of a shame for Britain when a viable and sensible opposition would be quite handy, but there we go.
What amazes me is the lack of leftwing hunger: for actual power. It's a species of defeatism. "We can never win an election and change anything, but at least we can be pure and feel good".
I wonder if we are seeing the final, unwinding defeat of the Left, which began with the fall of communism in 1989. The future might be sensible centre right parties versus populist hard right parties. The state of Europe suggests this is the case.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
Corbyn and his supporters have no interest in defeating the Tories. They want to control the Labour party and make it an extra-Parliamentary force. The proletariat will win on the streets not in the bourgeois surroundings of the Commons. Or something like that. They genuinely do not care if the Tories rule for another 30 years. The struggle is far more important. I think a breakaway is now the only option for anyone on the left who wants an alternative to a Tory government. It will take a long time, but less time than the hard left will have to wait.
A split seems inevitable, now.
A bit of a shame for Britain when a viable and sensible opposition would be quite handy, but there we go.
What amazes me is the lack of leftwing hunger: for actual power. It's a species of defeatism. "We can never win an election and change anything, but at least we can be pure and feel good".
I wonder if we are seeing the final, unwinding defeat of the Left, which began with the fall of communism in 1989. The future might be sensible centre right parties versus populist hard right parties. The state of Europe suggests this is the case.
They have essentially farmed out all the ruling nonsense to the Tories, so that they and throw insults and brickbats from the sidelines and retain their ideological purity without all that tedious messing about with compromising and getting people to vote for you. Best not to sully yourself and instead start another facebook group that organises protest events every fortnight that the same 200 people turn up to and most people don't realise is going on until they have to get to the cash machine the other side of it.
It's not just a centre left voice in EU negotiations, it's a rational right one as well...
No doubt why so many of us hope Leadsom won't make the ballot. She is our Corbyn.
Yep. Wrong person for the current situation. May would be a good PM and Gove probably a good caretaker for a couple of years. Someone with no experience except a dodgy-looking banking CV, no thanks.
Why do you think May would be a good PM?
There was a long discussion on the subject this morning, but to be brief she's an experienced minister, including six years heading a department known for killing off previously ambitious politicians. She's a calm, older and well respected person, probably the only one capable of uniting a party with a slim majority through a tough few years, with the EU exit negotiations and turbulent economic times ahead.
1. But she's not noticeably done a good job in the Home Office. 2. There seems to be a big split between the parliamentary party and their constituencies. Most of the MPs supported Remain, but the voters they rely on voted Leave. 3. The PM is not a Dr Manhattan figure, with instances of himself performing every role. Government is a team effort.
1. No-one since WWII has survived six years in the Home Office. It's a poisonous job, only one riot or policing screwup away from falling on ones sword. She's also overseen huge budget cuts to her department at the same time as recorded crime has fallen. She deported Abu Qatada and didn't deport Gary McKinnon. 2. We're electing a PM, not a minister for Brexit. The next PM will need to be a pragmatic figure, understanding what's possible and deploying the resources available to them in order to make it happen. 3 Agreed, the PM is the CEO and needs a good team under them to succeed. Of the three remaining candidates I see May as clearly the best in that role.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them into the ditch, he thinks he is reshaping them into a more moral and populist force, and he seems to have seen off intense attacks on his position and therefore the movement he is trying foster. That's a personal success of which many would be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
More nonsense. I correctly construed the Labour rules, ad nauseam, over a year ago, even before Corbyn was elected.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
Labour's only chance would be to find a candidate meeting the following criteria.
a) charismatic, at least as much as JC [the initials say it all] b) non "careerist" c) non-Blairite d) not tainted by Iraq e) non-metropolitan
None of the currently-mentioned names come remotely close to meeting all of the above. Does Labour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speaking personally, I would have no problem in principle with Tom Watson, however I genuinely believe he is less electable than Corbyn.
He is an utter shit - but he is someone who knows what being a Leader might actually entail. He knows how to put together a campaign (not always successfully)
All Corbyn can do is protest. He has spent his life doing that - not building anything, just complaining.
Just been to the Harper Collins summer party. It's always luxe but this was impressive: oysters for everyone, a Taj Mahal of sashimi, freely flowing champagne, a thousand people in the courtyard of the V&A
Some lovely women.
It felt like Paris having one last party before the blitzkrieg, and yet it also felt like Nothing Has Changed.
You talked to one person and they'd go from insouciance to depression and back again, in 20 minutes.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
Corbyn and his supporters have no interest in defeating the Tories. They want to control the Labour party and make it an extra-Parliamentary force. The proletariat will win on the streets not in the bourgeois surroundings of the Commons. Or something like that. They genuinely do not care if the Tories rule for another 30 years. The struggle is far more important. I think a breakaway is now the only option for anyone on the left who wants an alternative to a Tory government. It will take a long time, but less time than the hard left will have to wait.
A split seems inevitable, now.
A bit of a shame for Britain when a viable and sensible opposition would be quite handy, but there we go.
What amazes me is the lack of leftwing hunger: for actual power. It's a species of defeatism. "We can never win an election and change anything, but at least we can be pure and feel good".
I wonder if we are seeing the final, unwinding defeat of the Left, which began with the fall of communism in 1989. The future might be sensible centre right parties versus populist hard right parties. The state of Europe suggests this is the case.
My Oxford Momentum friend was saying only a couple of days ago that she really wanted to see a Socialist Utopia come to pass with the help of Corbyn. Then said she didn't actually want to live here if that were ever to happen.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them into the ditch, he thinks he is reshaping them into a more moral and populist force, and he seems to have seen off intense attacks on his position and therefore the movement he is trying foster. That's a personal success of which many would be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
More nonsense. I correctly construed the Labour rules, ad nauseam, over a year ago, even before Corbyn was elected.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
Labour's only chance would be to find a candidate meeting the following criteria.
a) charismatic, at least as much as JC [the initials say it all] b) non "careerist" c) non-Blairite d) not tainted by Iraq e) non-metropolitan
None of the currently-mentioned names come remotely close to meeting all of the above. Does Labour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speaking personally, I would have no problem in principle with Tom Watson, however I genuinely believe he is less electable than Corbyn.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
Corbyn and his supporters have no interest in defeating the Tories. They want to control the Labour party and make it an extra-Parliamentary force. The proletariat will win on the streets not in the bourgeois surroundings of the Commons. Or something like that. They genuinely do not care if the Tories rule for another 30 years. The struggle is far more important. I think a breakaway is now the only option for anyone on the left who wants an alternative to a Tory government. It will take a long time, but less time than the hard left will have to wait.
A split seems inevitable, now.
A bit of a shame for Britain when a viable and sensible opposition would be quite handy, but there we go.
What amazes me is the lack of leftwing hunger: for actual power. It's a species of defeatism. "We can never win an election and change anything, but at least we can be pure and feel good".
I wonder if we are seeing the final, unwinding defeat of the Left, which began with the fall of communism in 1989. The future might be sensible centre right parties versus populist hard right parties. The state of Europe suggests this is the case.
My Oxford Momentum friend was saying only a couple of days ago that she really wanted to see a Socialist Utopia come to pass with the help of Corbyn. Then said she didn't actually want to live here if that were ever to happen.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
Hewould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
More nonsense. I correctly construed the Labour rules, ad nauseam, over a year ago, even before Corbyn was elected.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
Labour's only chance would be to find a candidate meeting the following criteria.
a) charismatic, at least as mch as JC [the initials say it all] b) non "careerist" c) non-Blairite d) not tainted by Iraq e) non-metropolitan
None of the currently-mentioned names come remotely close to meeting all of the above. Does Labour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
As I've said all along, "Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same as "there is someone else who would do better than Corbyn".
The PLP can throw all the toddler tantrums they like, but the membership is only going to vote for a change when an alternative candidate is presented, with an alternative platform, with convincing reasons for why that candidate/platform would perform better in a general election than Corbyn. Pushing forward lightweights like Angela Eagle, with platforms which sound suspiciously like the inept "Remain" campaign, do not come close to meeting any of those tests.
If Corbyn stood down there could be a proper contest with candidates from all wings of the party. Corbyn is the roadblock. I just cannot understand why anyone who wants to see meaningful left wing policies enacted in this country would want him to continue in charge. Is he really the best the left can offer? I am afraid I don't buy that.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them into the ditch, he thinks he is reshaping them into a more moral and populist force, and he seems to have seen off intense attacks on his position and therefore the movement he is trying foster. That's a personal success of which many would be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
More nonsense. I correctly construed the Labour rules, ad nauseam, over a year ago, even before Corbyn was elected.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
Labour's only chance would be to find a candidate meeting the following criteria.
a) charismatic, at least as much as JC [the initials say it all] b) non "careerist" c) non-Blairite d) not tainted by Iraq e) non-metropolitan
None of the currently-mentioned names come remotely close to meeting all of the above. Does Labour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speaking personally, I would have no problem in principle with Tom Watson, however I genuinely believe he is less electable than Corbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The cats may be, but the PLP "moderates" by and large are not -- if they were that electable, they would have had good enough political judgement not to all cheerlead endlessly for the doomed "Remain" campaign.
That article still says there'll be a challenge by Angela Eagle. At least we'd know how things stand. If the YouGov poll on Labour members was right, he'd have a much reduced lead compared to when he was elected at least.
This and the talk here of new parties ignore the fundamental point that the centre-right of the party currently have neither a popular leader nor a popular platform. If they can't even find a viable candidate to stand within the party - which takes almost no effort whatever beyond signing a piece of paper and getting some signatures - how are they going to go about the Herculean task of setting up an entirely new party? You can't do that just with money - you need popular figures and attractive policies, and if they had them they could win without splitting. They have been putting the cart (Beat Corbyn!) before the horse (Develop an alternative) ever since before he was elected.
You still don't get it. Corbyn and the far left are flooding the membership with far left fanatics making it impossible for anyone to beat Corbyn unless he stands down. The rules are barmy, but they are the rules. There is plenty of talent in the PLP but it's impossible to for anyone outside the tiny far left grouping to win regardless of how good they are, because they are not true believers. How can you possibly defend the situation? The rebellion is gigantic - 80% of Labour MPs, a constitutional defeat for the leader of epic - possibly unprecedented - proportions, yet Corbyn stays. It's fanaticism. Nothing less.
Also to achieve what NPXMP claims as a viable compromise would require a complete rewriting of the Labour rule book and constitution. It is not going to happen.
Labour as we know it is over. The death knell is sounding. Sad but nothing is forever.
It certainly isn't ..... If a week is a long time in politics, then 3 years and 10 months until the next General Election is an eternity and certainly more than enough time for Labour in its moderate reincarnation, however that is brought about, to challenge seriously for Government - all the more so should we be facing a serious recession in the meantime. Is this perhaps the time to be taking Betfair's near 3/1 odds against Labour being the largest party post the GE? Possibly not just yet. But as soon as someone has the guts to stand up to Corbyn McCluskey, that's where a dollop of my money will be going.
That article still says there'll be a challenge by Angela Eagle. At least we'd know how things stand. If the YouGov poll on Labour members was right, he'd have a much reduced lead compared to when he was elected at least.
This Jeremy as national chair and people like Owen and McDonnell leading the Parliamentary charge may be the most viable practical way forward. I don't think most of the PLP is really still bent on centre-right policies - they just want a more forceful Parliamentary leader.
You still don't get it. Corbyn and the far left are flooding the membership with far left fanatics making it impossible for anyone to beat Corbyn unless he stands down. The rules are barmy, but they are the rules. There is plenty of talent in the PLP but it's impossible to for anyone outside the tiny far left grouping to win regardless of how good they are, because they are not true believers. How can you possibly defend the situation? The rebellion is gigantic - 80% of Labour MPs, a constitutional defeat for the leader of epic - possibly unprecedented - proportions, yet Corbyn stays. It's fanaticism. Nothing less.
Sadly, a lot of members have decided that having Corbyn in charge is more important than seeking to defeat the Tories. It's inexplicable as far as I am concerned, but it is what it is. The Labour party has taken the decision to be irrelevant and will now wither and die. The Tories will have a free hand to do as they wish. Corbynistas will bear a large responsibility for what happens. Their protests and howls of social media outrage will be so many empty words. It will be their fault.
See the other comments. This is the Left admitting final defeat. They don't believe they can win, they don't even particularly want to win, capitalism is just too overwhelming, but at least they can feel morally virtuous. The Labour party is turning into the Green party.
Yep. The left has given up. I think that's fair. It understands it can never win, so owning the Labour party is the next best thing. But something new will emerge. It just won't pretend to be socialist.
As I've said all along, "Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same as "there is someone else who would do better than Corbyn".
The PLP can throw all the toddler tantrums they like, but the membership is only going to vote for a change when an alternative candidate is presented, with an alternative platform, with convincing reasons for why that candidate/platform would perform better in a general election than Corbyn. Pushing forward lightweights like Angela Eagle, with platforms which sound suspiciously like the inept "Remain" campaign, do not come close to meeting any of those tests.
A leadership bid would give Angela Eagle a great platform to defend the Iraq War she voted for...
It's really time that Labour moved on from Iraq. It was shit, completely shit, a disaster and a calamity (which both Nick Palmer and I supported), and it should never have happened. But why should it poison our politics 13 years later?
It shouldn't. Blair is humiliated. Chilcot has spoken. Enough.
I left the Labour Party because of the Iraq war. It was obvious at the time that the case for was was a tissue of lies, and it was pretty obvious that post victory there were no plans. The British military were completely humiliated by deploying too few forces, ill equipped and with no proper plan.
Chilcott has taken seven years to very verbosely state the bleedin obvious.
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
I think the PLP need to trigger a leadership race to work out where the membership stands. If Momentum really have managed to get 200k Corbyn supporters to join in the last few days, at least know that for sure. Because once you know that, you know the far left will win the next leadership election after Corbyn. And once you know that, then the PLP splitting away becomes the logical option.
I think so too. There needs to be an election to be sure.
If Jezza gets re-elected after this shambolic year, then there is no hope for the Labour Party and no future for the sensible left within it.
I agree. But the current electoral system is preventing a sensible split. It's *so* bad for democracy that to do so would vacate the field of play to the Conservatives for the next 15-20 years in all probability. No wonder the country is so fucked.
As I've said all along, "Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same as "there is someone else who would do better than Corbyn".
The PLP can throw all the toddler tantrums they like, but the membership is only going to vote for a change when an alternative candidate is presented, with an alternative platform, with convincing reasons for why that candidate/platform would perform better in a general election than Corbyn. Pushing forward lightweights like Angela Eagle, with platforms which sound suspiciously like the inept "Remain" campaign, do not come close to meeting any of those tests.
A leadership bid would give Angela Eagle a great platform to defend the Iraq War she voted for...
It's really time that Labour moved on from Iraq. It was shit, completely shit, a disaster and a calamity (which both Nick Palmer and I supported), and it should never have happened. But why should it poison our politics 13 years later?
It shouldn't. Blair is humiliated. Chilcot has spoken. Enough.
I left the Labour Party because of the Iraq war. It was obvious at the time that the case for was was a tissue of lies, and it was pretty obvious that post victory there were no plans. The British military were completely humiliated by deploying too few forces, ill equipped and with no proper plan.
Chilcott has taken seven years to very verbosely state the bleedin obvious.
Is it really necessary to produce a report containing 2.6 million words? How many people are going to read the entire thing? Or even 50% of it.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them intowould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
More nonsense. I correctly construed the Labour rules, ad nauseam, over a year ago, even before Corbyn was elected.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
Labour's only chance would be to find a candidate meeting the following criteria.
a) charismatic, at least as much as JC [the initials say it all] b) non "careerist" c) non-Blairite d) not tainted by Iraq e) non-metropolitan
None of the currently-mentioned names come remotely close to meeting all of the above. Does Labour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speaking personally, I would have no problem in principle with Tom Watson, however I genuinely believe he is less electable than Corbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The cats may be, but the PLP "moderates" by and large are not -- if they were that electable, they would have had good enough political judgement not to all cheerlead endlessly for the doomed "Remain" campaign.
So 90% of Labour members and the majority of trade union members were wrong about Remain. And they get to choose the Labour leader :-) as SeanT says, you've given up. You don't think Labour can ever be electrd again. Your just going to leave the Tories to make the decisions and write the laws. So much for seeking to look after the intetests of working class Leave voters.
As I've said all along, "Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same as "there is someone else who would do better than Corbyn".
The PLP can throw all the toddler tantrums they like, but the membership is only going to vote for a change when an alternative candidate is presented, with an alternative platform, with convincing reasons for why that candidate/platform would perform better in a general election than Corbyn. Pushing forward lightweights like Angela Eagle, with platforms which sound suspiciously like the inept "Remain" campaign, do not come close to meeting any of those tests.
A leadership bid would give Angela Eagle a great platform to defend the Iraq War she voted for...
It's really time that Labour moved on from Iraq. It was shit, completely shit, a disaster and a calamity (which both Nick Palmer and I supported), and it should never have happened. But why should it poison our politics 13 years later?
It shouldn't. Blair is humiliated. Chilcot has spoken. Enough.
I left the Labour Party because of the Iraq war. It was obvious at the time that the case for was was a tissue of lies, and it was pretty obvious that post victory there were no plans. The British military were completely humiliated by deploying too few forces, ill equipped and with no proper plan.
Chilcott has taken seven years to very verbosely state the bleedin obvious.
Is it really necessary to produce a report containing 2.6 million words? How many people are going to read the entire thing? Or even 50% of it.
Hopefully a few journalists in the coming days, so the rest of us don't have to!
Apparently the only name in the 150 page executive summary was that of Blair, all the other names are in the long report.
For comparison, there's 550k words in War and Peace, 520k in Atlas Shrugged.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them into the ditch, he thinks he is reshaping them into a more moral and populist force, and he seems to have seen off intense attacks on his position and therefore the movement he is trying foster. That's a personal success of which many would be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
More nonsense. I correctly construed the Labour rules, ad nauseam, over a year ago, even before Corbyn was elected.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
Labour's only chance would be to find a candidate meeting the following criteria.
a) charismatic, at least as much as JC [the initials say it all] b) non "careerist" c) non-Blairite d) not tainted by Iraq e) non-metropolitan
None of the currently-mentioned names come remotely close to meeting all of the above. Does Labour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
I think you're dreaming. He's never a leader of anything, except perhaps on a strictly pro-tem basis, like Beckett or Harman, fulfilling the constitutional purpose of Deputy, in extremis...
It's simply not in his DNA to be Leader of the Labour Party, any more than Prescott...
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
Hewould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
More nonsense. I correctly construed the Labour rules, ad nauseam, over a year ago, even before Corbyn was elected.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
Labour's only chance would be to find a candidate meeting the following criteria.
a) charismatic, at least as mch as JC [the initials say it all] b) non "careerist" c) non-Blairite d) not tainted by Iraq e) non-metropolitan
None of the currently-mentioned names come remotely close to meeting all of the above. Does Labour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
snip
If Corbyn stood down there could be a proper contest with candidates from all wings of the party. Corbyn is the roadblock. I just cannot understand why anyone who wants to see meaningful left wing policies enacted in this country would want him to continue in charge. Is he really the best the left can offer? I am afraid I don't buy that.
Yes this insane idea that the party has to rally around a ready made perfect candidate in order for the utterly useless Corbyn to stand down is an outright far left lie. If Obama was waiting in the wings, Corbyn would still stay, using exactly the same lines...
1. No-one since WWII has survived six years in the Home Office. It's a poisonous job, only one riot or policing screwup away from falling on ones sword. She's also overseen huge budget cuts to her department at the same time as recorded crime has fallen. She deported Abu Qatada and didn't deport Gary McKinnon. 2. We're electing a PM, not a minister for Brexit. The next PM will need to be a pragmatic figure, understanding what's possible and deploying the resources available to them in order to make it happen. 3 Agreed, the PM is the CEO and needs a good team under them to succeed. Of the three remaining candidates I see May as clearly the best in that role.
You talk about unifying the parliamentary party, but thats not the split. The split is between the parliamentary party and the voters.
The last 2 elections have been 2 of Labour's worst results since WW2, but the Conservatives are not attracting support.
2015: Con 37%, Lab 30% 2010: Con 36%, Lab 29% 1987: Con 42%, Lab 31% 1983: Con 42%, Lab 28%
We've just had a referendum with a higher turnout than the last 5 general elections. A Leave PM gives the conservatives an opportunity to reach out to voters (constituencies) that they are not attracting at the moment.
Having May and Corbyn as the two main party leaders will be like a return to the mid-1990s: one leader born in the 1940s, the other in the 1950s, same as with Major and Blair.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them into the ditch, he thinks he is reshaping them into a more moral and populist force, and he seems to have seen off intense attacks on his position and therefore the movement he is trying foster. That's a personal success of which many would be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
More nonsense. I correctly construed the Labour rules, ad nauseam, over a year ago, even before Corbyn was elected.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
Labour's only chance would be to find a candidate meeting the following criteria.
a) charismatic, at least as much as JC [the initials say it all] b) non "careerist" c) non-Blairite d) not tainted by Iraq e) non-metropolitan
None of the currently-mentioned names come remotely close to meeting all of the above. Does Labour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
I think you're dreaming. He's never a leader of anything, except perhaps on a strictly pro-tem basis, like Beckett or Harman, fulfilling the constitutional purpose of Deputy, in extremis...
It's simply not in his DNA to be leader of the Labour Party, any more than Prescott...
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
Hewould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
More nonsense. I correctly construed the Labour rules, ad nauseam, over a year ago, even before Corbyn was elected.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
Labour's only chance would be to find a candidate meeting the following criteria.
a) charismatic, at least as mch as JC [the initials say it all] b) non "careerist" c) non-Blairite d) not tainted by Iraq e) non-metropolitan
None of the currently-mentioned names come remotely close to meeting all of the above. Does Labour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
snip
If Corbyn stood down there could be a proper contest with candidates from all wings of the party. Corbyn is the roadblock. I just cannot understand why anyone who wants to see meaningful left wing policies enacted in this country would want him to continue in charge. Is he really the best the left can offer? I am afraid I don't buy that.
Yes this insane idea that the party has to rally around a ready made perfect candidate in order for the utterly useless Corbyn to stand down is an outright far left lie. If Obama was waiting in the wings, Corbyn would still stay, using exactly the same lines...
Tom Watson is "good enough" yet he refuses to run. You could even justify Eagle running on a "eagle to the stalking horse slaughter" line. But yet she isn't willing to sacrifice herself !
If Corbyn stood down there could be a proper contest with candidates from all wings of the party. Corbyn is the roadblock. I just cannot understand why anyone who wants to see meaningful left wing policies enacted in this country would want him to continue in charge. Is he really the best the left can offer? I am afraid I don't buy that.
Again, I'm afraid I really do think he is the least-worst option from the current crop of Labour MPs.
Among the people I speak to "in real life", Corbyn is not at all popular, BUT there was far more disdain towards the "politics as usual" embodied by the "Remain" campaign. I have never known such fury as that campaign sparked - and I'm afraid that, until proven otherwise, I really do believe the Labour "moderates" would basically take all the worst traits of the Remain campaign.
Corbyn has many, many problems with how the public perceive him (his scruffiness, how out of depth he would be with the Merkels and Obamas of the world, how useless he'd be at protecting the country from terrorism, his lack of charisma), but against that, people do appreciate that he's "not a career politician" and that "atleast he seems a genuine person". In my judgement, that is a less-bad choice for Labour than yet another career politician, who isn't even more obviously competent or charismatic or less out-of-their-depth than Corbyn is.
The inescapable fact is that, in recent elections, campaigns closer to a Jeremy Corbyn model have had more success than campaigns that are closer to an Angela Eagle model (not least in the EU Referendum). He may be very far from ideal, but we have to deal with the unappealing options that are on the table rather than daydreaming about the hypothetical perfect candidate.
As I've said all along, "Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same as "there is someone else who would do better than Corbyn".
The PLP can throw all the toddler tantrums they like, but the membership is only going to vote for a change when an alternative candidate is presented, with an alternative platform, with convincing reasons for why that candidate/platform would perform better in a general election than Corbyn. Pushing forward lightweights like Angela Eagle, with platforms which sound suspiciously like the inept "Remain" campaign, do not come close to meeting any of those tests.
A leadership bid would give Angela Eagle a great platform to defend the Iraq War she voted for...
It's really time that Labour moved on from Iraq. It was shit, completely shit, a disaster and a calamity (which both Nick Palmer and I supported), and it should never have happened. But why should it poison our politics 13 years later?
It shouldn't. Blair is humiliated. Chilcot has spoken. Enough.
I left the Labour Party because of the Iraq war. It was obvious at the time that the case for was was a tissue of lies, and it was pretty obvious that post victory there were no plans. The British military were completely humiliated by deploying too few forces, ill equipped and with no proper plan.
Chilcott has taken seven years to very verbosely state the bleedin obvious.
Is it really necessary to produce a report containing 2.6 million words? How many people are going to read the entire thing? Or even 50% of it.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
Hewould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
More nonsense. I correctly construed the Labour rules, ad nauseam, over a year ago, even before Corbyn was elected.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
As I've said all along, "Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same as "there is someone else who would do better than Corbyn".
The PLP can throw all the toddler tantrums they like, but the membership is only going to vote for a change when an alternative candidate is presented, with an alternative platform, with convincing reasons for why that candidate/platform would perform better in a general election than Corbyn. Pushing forward lightweights like Angela Eagle, with platforms which sound suspiciously like the inept "Remain" campaign, do not come close to meeting any of those tests.
If Corbyn stood down there could be a proper contest with candidates from all wings of the party. Corbyn is the roadblock. I just cannot understand why anyone who wants to see meaningful left wing policies enacted in this country would want him to continue in charge. Is he really the best the left can offer? I am afraid I don't buy that.
But that is where this all started! The best that Labour could offer all stood, as well as Corbyn, and Corbyn slaughtered the lot of them. Where are these persuasive charismatic candidates who didn't stand last time, and where is their distinctive platform?
OK, I guess Labour could gamble and jump down to the next generation with someone like Creasey or Lewis. But they still need a platform, and (as in much of Europe) no-one has really got to grips with what is the role of the centre-left in the 21st century.
Isn't it a bit of a fallacy that Corbyn has a coherent platform himself? This is the same leadership that didn't know if it should oppose Osborne's budget charter, who has proposed keeping submarines without warheads and God knows what Labour's post Brexit policy is. How would a Corbyn led Labour balance the books or safeguard the long term future of the NHS? I have no idea..
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
Hewould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
More nonsense. I correctly construed the Labour rules, ad nauseam, over a year ago, even before Corbyn was elected.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
Labour's only chance would be to find a candidate meeting the following criteria.
a) charismatic, at least as mch as JC [the initials say it all] b) non "careerist" c) non-Blairite d) not tainted by Iraq e) non-metropolitan
None of the currently-mentioned names come remotely close to meeting all of the above. Does Labour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
snip
If Corbyn stood down there could be a propert him to continue in charge. Is he really the best the left can offer? I am afraid I don't buy that.
Yes this insane idea that the party has to rally around a ready made perfect candidate in order for the utterly useless Corbyn to stand down is an outright far left lie. If Obama was waiting in the wings, Corbyn would still stay, using exactly the same lines...
Of course. Corbyn could stand down, having lost the confidence of 80% of the PLP, and a new leadership contrst involving candidates from all wings of the party could be held. I genuinely don't understand why people who want to see left wing policies enacted in this country would be opposed to that - unless SeanT is right and they actually have no belief that a Labour government could ever again be elected.
It was obvious at the time that the case for was was a tissue of lies, and it was pretty obvious that post victory there were no plans.
Does that remind you of any contemporary political event?
That's facile in my view. The referendum was presented as a binary choice. Unlike Iraq there weren't boundless options post a Brexit vote. Discounting variations, there are four alternatives. Unfortunately, different elements of the Leave camp favoured different alternatives; another disbenefit of having multiple campaigns.
One parallel with the Chilcott report that I'll own to; the press utterly failed to press either side on their claims. It was framed purely as a political bunfight. On one level it was - a simultaneous Tory and Labour Civil War. However, there was no sustained attempt to uncover what the options might be, what they might cost and so on.
We are often very ill-served by our media; they see politics as just another form of clickbait.
Just been to the Harper Collins summer party. It's always luxe but this was impressive: oysters for everyone, a Taj Mahal of sashimi, freely flowing champagne, a thousand people in the courtyard of the V&A
Some lovely women.
It felt like Paris having one last party before the blitzkrieg, and yet it also felt like Nothing Has Changed.
You talked to one person and they'd go from insouciance to depression and back again, in 20 minutes.
Odd.
Hmm. They only invited me to the Christmas party
Now we are in the post-Chilcot era, are you going to be able to write that book? That's something I'd be willing to spend my money on, and I'm properly tight.
UKIP have no leader, and policies that vary from pooteresque to cynical. The reason that they are ineffective at taking or holding power at any level is because they are a waste of space.
They were successful in only one thing: getting Brexit, but even they have no plan for afterwards.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
More nonsense. I correctly construed the Labour rules, ad nauseam, over a year ago, even before Corbyn was elected.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
Labour's only chance would be to find a candidate meeting the following criteria.
a) charismatic, at least as much as JC [the initials say it all] b) non "careerist" c) non-Blairite d) not tainted by Iraq e) non-metropolitan
None of the currently-mentioned names come remotely close to meeting all of the above. Does Labour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
I think you're dreaming. He's never a leader of anything, except perhaps on a strictly pro-tem basis, like Beckett or Harman, fulfilling the constitutional purpose of Deputy, in extremis...
It's simply not in his DNA to be leader of the Labour Party, any more than Prescott...
Who do you have in mind, Rod ?
I have a couple of people in mind as possible next leader, and have bet on them at long odds.
Unfortunately, I suspect they may be losing bets, as I think the Corbyn wing will get a successor of their own elected, as and when Jezza goes. McDonnell, or some other acolyte...
So, I'll not mention any names yet. You can probably deduce some possibles from my a)-e) list offered previously.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
ce of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them intowould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Moour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speaking personally, I would have no problem in principle with Tom Watson, however I genuinely believe he is less electable than Corbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The campaign.
An Opposition will emerge to the Tories, in time.
But the way Labour are behaving means that it could, easily, be UKIP. Especially if May (as I suspect she will) agrees to some compromise on Freedom of Movement.
If I was white working class or lower middle class in the north or Wales or East Anglia I would vote UKIP. It makes sense. They get things done. They got the referendum. You get a sense of leverage: voting UKIP.
Labour, by contrast, is the party of effete London losers, and it is a party that dislikes me. Labour wants MORE immigration. Labour wants my wages to go DOWN. Labour wants more multiculti. Labour's leader really likes the IRA and Hamas.
It's unsellable.
If UKIP box clever (not certain) they could seize 100 seats from Labour in 2020, if Corbyn is leader.
Surely UKIP was a one trick pony ..... where does it go from here?
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
ce of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them intowould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Moour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speaking personally, I would have no problem in principle with Tom Watson, however I genuinely believe he is less electable than Corbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The campaign.
An Opposition will emerge to the Tories, in time.
But the way Labour are behaving means that it could, easily, be UKIP. Especially if May (as I suspect she will) agrees to some compromise on Freedom of Movement.
If I was white working class or lower middle class in the north or Wales or East Anglia I would vote UKIP. It makes sense. They get things done. They got the referendum. You get a sense of leverage: voting UKIP.
Labour, by contrast, is the party of effete London losers, and it is a party that dislikes me. Labour wants MORE immigration. Labour wants my wages to go DOWN. Labour wants more multiculti. Labour's leader really likes the IRA and Hamas.
It's unsellable.
If UKIP box clever (not certain) they could seize 100 seats from Labour in 2020, if Corbyn is leader.
Surely UKIP was a one trick pony ..... where do they go from here?
They just wait until the government betrays the cause, and then out-Tory the Tories. And bizarrely capture lots of former labour votes in the process.
If Corbyn stood down there could be a proper contest with candidates from all wings of the party. Corbyn is the roadblock. I just cannot understand why anyone who wants to see meaningful left wing policies enacted in this country would want him to continue in charge. Is he really the best the left can offer? I am afraid I don't buy that.
Again, I'm afraid I really do think he is the least-worst option from the current crop of Labour MPs.
Among the people I speak to "in real life", Corbyn is not at all popular, BUT there was far more disdain towards the "politics as usual" embodied by the "Remain" campaign. I have never known such fury as that campaign sparked - and I'm afraid that, until proven otherwise, I really do believe the Labour "moderates" would basically take all the worst traits of the Remain campaign.
Corbyn has many, many problems with how the public perceive him (his scruffiness, how out of depth he would be with the Merkels and Obamas of the world, how useless he'd be at protecting the country from terrorism, his lack of charisma), but against that, people do appreciate that he's "not a career politician" and that "atleast he seems a genuine person". In my judgement, that is a less-bad choice for Labour than yet another career politician, who isn't even more obviously competent or charismatic or less out-of-their-depth than Corbyn is.
The inescapable fact is that, in recent elections, campaigns closer to a Jeremy Corbyn model have had more success than campaigns that are closer to an Angela Eagle model (not least in the EU Referendum). He may be very far from ideal, but we have to deal with the unappealing options that are on the table rather than daydreaming about the hypothetical perfect candidate.
Fair enough - you think Corbyn is the best that Labour can do. If that is the case, then it really is all over for Labour. It's catastrophic defeat at the next GE and then total irrelevance. Something will then emerge to take its place.
UKIP have no leader, and policies that vary from pooteresque to cynical. The reason that they are ineffective at taking or holding power at any level is because they are a waste of space.
They were successful in only one thing: getting Brexit, but even they have no plan for afterwards.
Actually they do have a very clear plan. It is just not one that you or I would agree with.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
ce of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them intowould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Moour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speaking personally, I would have no problem in principle with Tom Watson, however I genuinely believe he is less electable than Corbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The campaign.
An Opposition will emerge to the Tories, in time.
But the way Labour are behaving means that it could, easily, be UKIP. Especially if May (as I suspect she will) agrees to some compromise on Freedom of Movement.
If I was white working class or lower middle class in the north or Wales or East Anglia I would vote UKIP. It makes sense. They get things done. They got the referendum. You get a sense of leverage: voting UKIP.
Labour, by contrast, is the party of effete London losers, and it is a party that dislikes me. Labour wants MORE immigration. Labour wants my wages to go DOWN. Labour wants more multiculti. Labour's leader really likes the IRA and Hamas.
It's unsellable.
If UKIP box clever (not certain) they could seize 100 seats from Labour in 2020, if Corbyn is leader.
Surely UKIP was a one trick pony ..... where does it go from here?
Oh, UKIP has plenty of places to go from here with a decent new leader. Farage has taken the party as far as he possibly can - Woolfe will do better than Nuttall I think.
Yes this insane idea that the party has to rally around a ready made perfect candidate in order for the utterly useless Corbyn to stand down is an outright far left lie. If Obama was waiting in the wings, Corbyn would still stay, using exactly the same lines...
Except, I didn't even vote for Corbyn in the first place - far from needing an Obama figure, I even settled for Andy Burnham over Corbyn last summer.
But once again, it should be commonsense that, no matter how unsatisfactory the current arrangement is, you don't ditch it until you've got a better arrangement lined up. And I come back to the point that it's not at all obvious to me that the PLP moderates would be a better arrangement, when they just showed how spectacularly bad their political judgement was with the EU Referendum.
If Corbyn stood down there could be a proper contest with candidates from all wings of the party. Corbyn is the roadblock. I just cannot understand why anyone who wants to see meaningful left wing policies enacted in this country would want him to continue in charge. Is he really the best the left can offer? I am afraid I don't buy that.
Again, I'm afraid I really do think he is the least-worst option from the current crop of Labour MPs.
Among the people I speak to "in real life", Corbyn is not at all popular, BUT there was far more disdain towards the "politics as usual" embodied by the "Remain" campaign. I have never known such fury as that campaign sparked - and I'm afraid that, until proven otherwise, I really do believe the Labour "moderates" would basically take all the worst traits of the Remain campaign.
Corbyn has many, many problems with how the public perceive him (his scruffiness, how out of depth he would be with the Merkels and Obamas of the world, how useless he'd be at protecting the country from terrorism, his lack of charisma), but against that, people do appreciate that he's "not a career politician" and that "atleast he seems a genuine person". In my judgement, that is a less-bad choice for Labour than yet another career politician, who isn't even more obviously competent or charismatic or less out-of-their-depth than Corbyn is.
The inescapable fact is that, in recent elections, campaigns closer to a Jeremy Corbyn model have had more success than campaigns that are closer to an Angela Eagle model (not least in the EU Referendum). He may be very far from ideal, but we have to deal with the unappealing options that are on the table rather than daydreaming about the hypothetical perfect candidate.
Like I said, the Left is defeated. This is it. The game is over. The Left has lost.
Sounds remarkably like Fukayama's End of History debate, and that proved equally wrong in the end. There will always be a progressive strand of politics with or without the Labour Party. There will be a remodelling to fit 21st century reality. It just isn't clear what that looks like yet.
Certainly I don't think labour can find a way back to the majoritarian politics of the 1990s, which it what it seems to me Southam is arguing for. The world has changed and politics needs to change with it
/edit except of course if Brexit turns into such a disaster that people just vote for any non-Tory in protest. But that isn't a happy scenario and doesn't really solve any of the underlying issues.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
ce of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them intowould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Moour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speakingbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The campaign.
So 90% of Labour members and the majority of trade union members were wrong about Remain. And theyorking class Leave voters.
An Opposition will emerge to the Tories, in time.
But the way Labour are behaving means that it could, easily, be UKIP. Especially if May (as I suspect she will) agrees to some compromise on Freedom of Movement.
If I was white working class or lower middle class in the north or Wales or East Anglia I would vote UKIP. It makes sense. They get things done. They got the referendum. You get a sense of leverage: voting UKIP.
Labour, by contrast, is the party of effete London losers, and it is a party that dislikes me. Labour wants MORE immigration. Labour wants my wages to go DOWN. Labour wants more multiculti. Labour's leader really likes the IRA and Hamas.
It's unsellable.
If UKIP box clever (not certain) they could seize 100 seats from Labour in 2020, if Corbyn is leader.
UKIP have a lot of thinking to do. It looks and feels like an economically and fiscally right wing party right now. If it pivoted credibly to the left on issues such as public spending, the NHS and wealth redistribution then it would have enormous opportunities. But I am not sure its leaders or members could countenance that.
UKIP have no leader, and policies that vary from pooteresque to cynical. The reason that they are ineffective at taking or holding power at any level is because they are a waste of space.
They were successful in only one thing: getting Brexit, but even they have no plan for afterwards.
Actually they do have a very clear plan. It is just not one that you or I would agree with.
It is a plan untainted by contact with the real world. One that denies that "Independence" will involve considerable belt tightening over the next few years.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
ce of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them intowould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Moour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speakingbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The campaign.
So 90% of Labour members and the majority of trade union members were wrong about Remain. And theyorking class Leave voters.
An O
UKIP have a lot of thinking to do. It looks and feels like an economically and fiscally right wing party right now. If it pivoted credibly to the left on issues such as public spending, the NHS and wealth redistribution then it would have enormous opportunities. But I am not sure its leaders or members could countenance that.
Agreed.
Farage the Stockbroker has gone.
If they install a credible working class or lower middle class leader, with brains, they could do to Labour in England and Wales what the SNP did to Labour in Scotland.
They need a woman. A complete break from the Farage look...
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
ce of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them intowould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Moour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speakingbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The campaign.
So 90% of Labour members and the majority of trade union members were wrong about Remain. And theyorking class Leave voters.
An O
UKIP have a lot of thinking to do. It looks and feels like an economically and fiscally right wing party right now. If it pivoted credibly to the left on issues such as public spending, the NHS and wealth redistribution then it would have enormous opportunities. But I am not sure its leaders or members could countenance that.
Agreed.
Farage the Stockbroker has gone.
If they install a credible working class or lower middle class leader, with brains, they could do to Labour in England and Wales what the SNP did to Labour in Scotland.
They need a woman. A complete break from the Farage look...
Yes this insane idea that the party has to rally around a ready made perfect candidate in order for the utterly useless Corbyn to stand down is an outright far left lie. If Obama was waiting in the wings, Corbyn would still stay, using exactly the same lines...
Except, I didn't even vote for Corbyn in the first place - far from needing an Obama figure, I even settled for Andy Burnham over Corbyn last summer.
But once again, it should be commonsense that, no matter how unsatisfactory the current arrangement is, you don't ditch it until you've got a better arrangement lined up. And I come back to the point that it's not at all obvious to me that the PLP moderates would be a better arrangement, when they just showed how spectacularly bad their political judgement was with the EU Referendum.
Are you saying that there are 172 moderates in the PLP? And what do you think of the judgement of the 90% of Labour members who supported remain, as well as all the trade unions that did? You are sounding a bit formulaic. Your main contention seems to be that Corbyn is currently the best leader Labour could have, that no-one could do a better job. I don't buy that, but if I am wrong what does it tell us about Labour's long-term future?
UKIP have no leader, and policies that vary from pooteresque to cynical. The reason that they are ineffective at taking or holding power at any level is because they are a waste of space.
They were successful in only one thing: getting Brexit, but even they have no plan for afterwards.
Actually they do have a very clear plan. It is just not one that you or I would agree with.
It is a plan untainted by contact with the real world. One that denies that "Independence" will involve considerable belt tightening over the next few years.
I would suggest it is not even really associated with independence. The whole thrust of the UKIP argument was to do with immigration. Nothing else really seems to matter to them.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
ce of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them intowould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Moour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speakingbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The campaign.
So 90% of Labour members and the majority of trade union members were wrong about Remain. And theyorking class Leave voters.
An O
UKIP have a lot of thinking to do. It looks and feels like an economically and fiscally right wing party right now. If it pivoted credibly to the left on issues such as public spending, the NHS and wealth redistribution then it would have enormous opportunities. But I am not sure its leaders or members could countenance that.
Agreed.
Farage the Stockbroker has gone.
If they install a credible working class or lower middle class leader, with brains, they could do to Labour in England and Wales what the SNP did to Labour in Scotland.
They need a woman. A complete break from the Farage look...
Suzanne Evans is essentially a right wing Tory. Are there any other UKIP women with a shot at the leadership?
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
ce of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them intowould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Moour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speakingbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The campaign.
So 90% of Labour members and the majority of trade union members were wrong about Remain. And theyorking class Leave voters.
An O
UKIP have a lot of thinking to do. It looks and feels like an economically and fiscally right wing party right now. If it pivoted credibly to the left on issues such as public spending, the NHS and wealth redistribution then it would have enormous opportunities. But I am not sure its leaders or members could countenance that.
Agreed.
Farage the Stockbroker has gone.
If they install a credible working class or lower middle class leader, with brains, they could do to Labour in England and Wales what the SNP did to Labour in Scotland.
They need a woman. A complete break from the Farage look...
Suzanne Evans is essentially a right wing Tory. Are there any other UKIP women with a shot at the leadership?
I quite liked their Rotherham candidate. Jane Collins (?)
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
ce of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them intowould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Moour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speakingbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The campaign.
So 90% of Labour members and the majority of trade union members were wrong about Remain. And theyorking class Leave voters.
An O
UKIP have a lot of thinking to do. It looks and feels like an economically and fiscally right wing party right now. If it pivoted credibly to the left on issues such as public spending, the NHS and wealth redistribution then it would have enormous opportunities. But I am not sure its leaders or members could countenance that.
Agreed.
Farage the Stockbroker has gone.
If they install a credible working class or lower middle class leader, with brains, they could do to Labour in England and Wales what the SNP did to Labour in Scotland.
They need a woman. A complete break from the Farage look...
Suzanne Evans is essentially a right wing Tory. Are there any other UKIP women with a shot at the leadership?
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
ce of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them intowould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Moour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speakingbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The campaign.
So 90% of Labour members and the majority of trade union members were wrong about Remain. And theyorking class Leave voters.
An O
UKIP have a lot of thinking to do. It looks and feels like an economically and fiscally right wing party right now. If it pivoted credibly to the left on issues such as public spending, the NHS and wealth redistribution then it would have enormous opportunities. But I am not sure its leaders or members could countenance that.
Agreed.
Farage the Stockbroker has gone.
If they install a credible working class or lower middle class leader, with brains, they could do to Labour in England and Wales what the SNP did to Labour in Scotland.
They need a woman. A complete break from the Farage look...
Someone to out-Leadsom Leadsom?
UKIP have a tough gig on their hands if Leadsom is in charge.
UKIP have no leader, and policies that vary from pooteresque to cynical. The reason that they are ineffective at taking or holding power at any level is because they are a waste of space.
They were successful in only one thing: getting Brexit, but even they have no plan for afterwards.
Actually they do have a very clear plan. It is just not one that you or I would agree with.
It is a plan untainted by contact with the real world. One that denies that "Independence" will involve considerable belt tightening over the next few years.
I would suggest it is not even really associated with independence. The whole thrust of the UKIP argument was to do with immigration. Nothing else really seems to matter to them.
Con Home had 'people's army' faction in UKIP. An us vs them class battle against London elites.
Those would presumably be the non-voters who turned out in the referendum.
Certainly I don't think labour can find a way back to the majoritarian politics of the 1990s, which it what it seems to me Southam is arguing for. The world has changed and politics needs to change with it
/edit except of course if Brexit turns into such a disaster that people just vote for any non-Tory in protest. But that isn't a happy scenario and doesn't really solve any of the underlying issues.
Labour's main job now is to provide a credible opposition to the government at a time of pivotal importance in this country's history. The Brexit deal the Tories propose and then negotiate demands forensic interrogation to ensure it's the best we can get. A good opposition would play a big part in that. A Corbyn-led opposition can't do it, not least because all the genuine talent - perhaps with the exception of John McDonnell - is not in the shadow cabinet and will not be while Corbyn leader.
Beyond that the primary task of the Labour leader at the next GE will be to deny the Tories an overall majority. Corbyn can't do that either.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
ce of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doespersonal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Moour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speakingbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The campaign.
So 90% of Labour members and the majority of trade union members were wrong about Remain. And theyorking class Leave voters.
An O
UKIP have a lot of thinking to do.
Agreed.
Farage the Stockbroker has gone.
If they install a credible working class or lower middle class leader, with brains, they could do to Labour in England and Wales what the SNP did to Labour in Scotland.
They need a woman. A complete break from the Farage look...
Someone to out-Leadsom Leadsom?
Diane James is more persuasive as an Opposition leader than the present leader of the Opposition
That tells you all you need to know.
UKIP are upping their game. They may fail. History suggests they will. But Labour is perilously close to the cliff edge, right now. And once they fall below 150 seats then termination beckons
She is not going to win over the WWC for any agenda other than Brexit. Nearly all the leading kippers are people who left the Tory party because it was not right wing enough. Most of the kipper membership who choose the leader too.
The kipper members share the disconnect from their voters that Labour and Tories have.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
ce of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them intowould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Moour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speakingbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The campaign.
So 90% of Labour members and the majority of trade union members were wrong about Remain. And theyorking class Leave voters.
An O
UKIP have a lot of thinking to do. It looks and feels like an economically and fiscally right wing party right now. If it pivoted credibly to the left on issues such as public spending, the NHS and wealth redistribution then it would have enormous opportunities. But I am not sure its leaders or members could countenance that.
Agreed.
Farage the Stockbroker has gone.
If they install a credible working class or lower middle class leader, with brains, they could do to Labour in England and Wales what the SNP did to Labour in Scotland.
They need a woman. A complete break from the Farage look...
Suzanne Evans is essentially a right wing Tory. Are there any other UKIP women with a shot at the leadership?
Diane James?
Yep, that's the one. A right wing, southern Tory. No chance in Labour heartlands.
Jesus fucking Christ. The death of a great British political party.
I do not understand how you can be sentient and leftwing and not feel ashamed and embarrassed by this. It's like the Tories being invaded by Britain First, and succumbing.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
ce of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them intowould be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Moour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speakingbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The campaign.
So 90% of Labour members and the majority of trade union members were wrong about Remain. And theyorking class Leave voters.
An O
UKIP have a lot of thinking to do. It looks and feels like an economically and fiscally right wing party right now. If it pivoted credibly to the left on issues such as public spending, the NHS and wealth redistribution then it would have enormous opportunities. But I am not sure its leaders or members could countenance that.
Agreed.
Farage the Stockbroker has gone.
If they install a credible working class or lower middle class leader, with brains, they could do to Labour in England and Wales what the SNP did to Labour in Scotland.
They need a woman. A complete break from the Farage look...
Someone to out-Leadsom Leadsom?
UKIP have a tough gig on their hands if Leadsom is in charge.
Labour have a tough time ahead if Leadsom is in charge. 7/10 Labour constituencies voted Leave.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
ce of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He dersonal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Moour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speakingbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The campaign.
So 90% of Labour members and the majority of trade union members were wrong about Remain. And theyorking class Leave voters.
An O
UKIP have a lotould countenance that.
Agreed.
Farage the Stockbroker has gone.
If they install a credible working class or lower middle class leader, with brains, they could do to Labour in England and Wales what the SNP did to Labour in Scotland.
They need a woman. A complete break from the Farage look...
Suzanne Evans is essentially a right wing Tory. Are there any other UKIP women with a shot at the leadership?
Diane James?
Yep, that's the one. A right wing, southern Tory. No chance in Labour heartlands.
Paul Nuttall would do well, methinks. Could see him taking 100 seats. He's sounder than Corbyn.
He wants to abolish the NHS. Again, not popular in Labour heartlands. A Scouse accent is not enough.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
ce of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He dersonal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Moour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speakingbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The campaign.
So 90% of Labour members and the majority of trade union members were wrong about Remain. And theyorking class Leave voters.
An O
UKIP have a lotould countenance that.
Agreed.
Farage the Stockbroker has gone.
If they install a credible working class or lower middle class leader, with brains, they could do to Labour in England and Wales what the SNP did to Labour in Scotland.
They need a woman. A complete break from the Farage look...
Suzanne Evans is essentially a right wing Tory. Are there any other UKIP women with a shot at the leadership?
Diane James?
Yep, that's the one. A right wing, southern Tory. No chance in Labour heartlands.
Paul Nuttall would do well, methinks. Could see him taking 100 seats. He's sounder than Corbyn.
Isn't he a small state conservative? Wanted to abolish the NHS?
He's the best of the options in Paddy Power's UKIP list, but he's not good enough.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
ce of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He dersonal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Moour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
If Tom Watson had had the balls, I think he'd have beaten Corbyn in a head-to-head.
Speakingbyn.
Plato's cats are more electable than Corbyn.
The campaign.
So 90% of Labour members and the majority of trade union members were wrong about Remain. And theyorking class Leave voters.
An O
UKIP have a lotould countenance that.
Agreed.
Farage the Stockbroker has gone.
If they install a credible working class or lower middle class leader, with brains, they could do to Labour in England and Wales what the SNP did to Labour in Scotland.
They need a woman. A complete break from the Farage look...
Suzanne Evans is essentially a right wing Tory. Are there any other UKIP women with a shot at the leadership?
Diane James?
Yep, that's the one. A right wing, southern Tory. No chance in Labour heartlands.
Paul Nuttall would do well, methinks. Could see him taking 100 seats. He's sounder than Corbyn.
He has the air of a thug - which is not terribly endearing. Woolfe just comes over as a slimeball. They are not overburdened with talent. But then as a personality cult, they were never allowed to have rival leaders in waiting.
Yes this insane idea that the party has to rally around a ready made perfect candidate in order for the utterly useless Corbyn to stand down is an outright far left lie. If Obama was waiting in the wings, Corbyn would still stay, using exactly the same lines...
Except, I didn't even vote for Corbyn in the first place - far from needing an Obama figure, I even settled for Andy Burnham over Corbyn last summer.
But once again, it should be commonsense that, no matter how unsatisfactory the current arrangement is, you don't ditch it until you've got a better arrangement lined up. And I come back to the point that it's not at all obvious to me that the PLP moderates would be a better arrangement, when they just showed how spectacularly bad their political judgement was with the EU Referendum.
Are you saying that there are 172 moderates in the PLP? And what do you think of the judgement of the 90% of Labour members who supported remain, as well as all the trade unions that did? You are sounding a bit formulaic. Your main contention seems to be that Corbyn is currently the best leader Labour could have, that no-one could do a better job. I don't buy that, but if I am wrong what does it tell us about Labour's long-term future?
It is not even just the fact that the Labour MPs supported Remain -- it is that they supported the Remain campaign's arguments, and the likes of Alan Johnson, Hilary Benn and Angela Eagle faithfully repeated those arguments on TV time and time again.
They should have known that, with the utter rage there is among a lot of lower-income voters right now, a campaign based on wonkish facts and statistics, was never going to win out over an emotional appeal for change by any means necessary. But if the Labour MPs didn't spot that was the mood with their own voters, even though that should've been blatantly obvious to anyone who was even vaguely in touch with public opinion, makes me think they would produce similarly tone-deaf campaigns if they got control back of the party.
A lot of nominally left wing people seem to be able to overlook the hypocrisy in defending both Islam and gay rights while being perplexed by a northerner from an ex mining town agreeing with UKIP's supposedly Thatcherite leadership.
Isn't it just the case that people tend to identify an enemy and just disagree with them whatever? In the case of the former it is a stereotype of the right wing, and in the latter a dislike of centrists that have ruined their lives?
Nah. UKIP are in disarray too, a mess of infighting and backstabbing along with incoherence over the future. The Leave win is a phyrric victory for them. Look at the fiasco with Hamilton and HQ over Wales, or the bizarre distance between Farage and Carswell or Evans.
Most likely Leave will soon be an orphan, unwanted and unloved by anyone, as we shrink our place in the world along with our economy.
Leave voters will mostly go back to their usual parties at election times, or back to non-participation.
Yes this insane idea that the party has to rally around a ready made perfect candidate in order for the utterly useless Corbyn to stand down is an outright far left lie. If Obama was waiting in the wings, Corbyn would still stay, using exactly the same lines...
Except, I didn't even vote for Corbyn in the first place - far from needing an Obama figure, I even settled for Andy Burnham over Corbyn last summer.
But once again, it should be commonsense that, no matter how unsatisfactory the current arrangement is, you don't ditch it until you've got a better arrangement lined up. And I come back to the point that it's not at all obvious to me that the PLP moderates would be a better arrangement, when they just showed how spectacularly bad their political judgement was with the EU Referendum.
Are you saying that there are 172 moderates in the PLP? And what do you think of the judgement of the 90% of Labour members who supported remain, as well as all the trade unions that did? You are sounding a bit formulaic. Your main contention seems to be that Corbyn is currently the best leader Labour could have, that no-one could do a better job. I don't buy that, but if I am wrong what does it tell us about Labour's long-term future?
It is not even just the fact that the Labour MPs supported Remain -- it is that they supported the Remain campaign's arguments, and the likes of Alan Johnson, Hilary Benn and Angela Eagle faithfully repeated those arguments on TV time and time again.
They should have known that, with the utter rage there is among a lot of lower-income voters right now, a campaign based on wonkish facts and statistics, was never going to win out over an emotional appeal for change by any means necessary. But if the Labour MPs didn't spot that was the mood with their own voters, even though that should've been blatantly obvious to anyone who was even vaguely in touch with public opinion, makes me think they would produce similarly tone-deaf campaigns if they got control back of the party.
It's not like they haven't be warned, by their own side, for ages: Cruddas, Glasman, Field etc etc.
We'll soon see how many of these rebel Labour MPs are willing to stand up for their social democratic principles or whether they'll just hide behind the skirt of Corbyn and his little mouthy brownshirts.
Comments
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Periodic_Review_of_Westminster_constituencies
There was talk a few months ago of the government trying to be able to implement the review by Statutory Instrument rather than a vote, on the basis that the MPs might not like a reduction in the number of MPs, but can't find with a quick search any more details on that.
There are some hopeful signs that, following on from the EUref, people from a variety of parties are starting to realise this and explore what common ground there might be for taking forward a shared platform for reform. But of course this is being done from a position now of huge weakness.
Meanwhile Nick is right that, for all the futility of corbynite politics, the so-called Blairite wing of the party offers nothing now but a dead end, with no platform and no persuasive leaders. People keep drawing parallels with the 1980s but, whatever you think of them, the leading defectors back then were major political figures, who brought a lot of both activists and ordinary people with them, and with clear and distinctive policy differences that set them apart from Labour and ultimately led most of them into the Liberal Democrats. Despite the huge hurdle of the voting system this tradition has, just about, survived in British politics. I cannot see that the anti-Corbyn body of MPs have any of these assets nor any chance of pulling off something similar to the SDP.
Sadly, the only conclusion I can reach is that nothing will really change with Labour until the party is shattered by dramatic electoral defeat. And then hope that from the wreckage some sort of new politics can be reconstructed.
Any hypothetical challenge was doomed, not least because Jezza would automatically be on the ballot...
Labour's only chance would be to find a candidate meeting the following criteria.
a) charismatic, at least as much as JC [the initials say it all]
b) non "careerist"
c) non-Blairite
d) not tainted by Iraq
e) non-metropolitan
None of the currently-mentioned names come remotely close to meeting all of the above. Does Labour even have such a person? Perhaps, but you can count them on the fingers of half-a-hand...
The PLP can throw all the toddler tantrums they like, but the membership is only going to vote for a change when an alternative candidate is presented, with an alternative platform, with convincing reasons for why that candidate/platform would perform better in a general election than Corbyn. Pushing forward lightweights like Angela Eagle, with platforms which sound suspiciously like the inept "Remain" campaign, do not come close to meeting any of those tests.
Says it all really.
We have a national health service, excellent worker's rights and generous welfare and pension systems.
Perhaps it should retire with the grateful thanks of the nation. Well done, thou good and faithful servant etc.
Best not to sully yourself and instead start another facebook group that organises protest events every fortnight that the same 200 people turn up to and most people don't realise is going on until they have to get to the cash machine the other side of it.
2. We're electing a PM, not a minister for Brexit. The next PM will need to be a pragmatic figure, understanding what's possible and deploying the resources available to them in order to make it happen.
3 Agreed, the PM is the CEO and needs a good team under them to succeed. Of the three remaining candidates I see May as clearly the best in that role.
All Corbyn can do is protest. He has spent his life doing that - not building anything, just complaining.
Why isn't the moggster standing? Now I want to vote for Gove. Time to go to bed!
Is this perhaps the time to be taking Betfair's near 3/1 odds against Labour being the largest party post the GE? Possibly not just yet. But as soon as someone has the guts to stand up to Corbyn McCluskey, that's where a dollop of my money will be going.
Chilcott has taken seven years to very verbosely state the bleedin obvious.
No wonder the country is so fucked.
Apparently the only name in the 150 page executive summary was that of Blair, all the other names are in the long report.
For comparison, there's 550k words in War and Peace, 520k in Atlas Shrugged.
It's simply not in his DNA to be Leader of the Labour Party, any more than Prescott...
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/07/jeremy-corbyn-s-allies-believe-they-ll-win-again-because-their-opponents-haven-t
The last 2 elections have been 2 of Labour's worst results since WW2, but the Conservatives are not attracting support.
2015: Con 37%, Lab 30%
2010: Con 36%, Lab 29%
1987: Con 42%, Lab 31%
1983: Con 42%, Lab 28%
We've just had a referendum with a higher turnout than the last 5 general elections. A Leave PM gives the conservatives an opportunity to reach out to voters (constituencies) that they are not attracting at the moment.
https://medium.com/@chrishanretty/most-labour-mps-represent-a-constituency-that-voted-leave-36f13210f5c6
Among the people I speak to "in real life", Corbyn is not at all popular, BUT there was far more disdain towards the "politics as usual" embodied by the "Remain" campaign. I have never known such fury as that campaign sparked - and I'm afraid that, until proven otherwise, I really do believe the Labour "moderates" would basically take all the worst traits of the Remain campaign.
Corbyn has many, many problems with how the public perceive him (his scruffiness, how out of depth he would be with the Merkels and Obamas of the world, how useless he'd be at protecting the country from terrorism, his lack of charisma), but against that, people do appreciate that he's "not a career politician" and that "atleast he seems a genuine person". In my judgement, that is a less-bad choice for Labour than yet another career politician, who isn't even more obviously competent or charismatic or less out-of-their-depth than Corbyn is.
The inescapable fact is that, in recent elections, campaigns closer to a Jeremy Corbyn model have had more success than campaigns that are closer to an Angela Eagle model (not least in the EU Referendum). He may be very far from ideal, but we have to deal with the unappealing options that are on the table rather than daydreaming about the hypothetical perfect candidate.
(I don't how many the official history of WWII had).
OK, I guess Labour could gamble and jump down to the next generation with someone like Creasey or Lewis. But they still need a platform, and (as in much of Europe) no-one has really got to grips with what is the role of the centre-left in the 21st century.
One parallel with the Chilcott report that I'll own to; the press utterly failed to press either side on their claims. It was framed purely as a political bunfight. On one level it was - a simultaneous Tory and Labour Civil War. However, there was no sustained attempt to uncover what the options might be, what they might cost and so on.
We are often very ill-served by our media; they see politics as just another form of clickbait.
Nah.
UKIP have no leader, and policies that vary from pooteresque to cynical. The reason that they are ineffective at taking or holding power at any level is because they are a waste of space.
They were successful in only one thing: getting Brexit, but even they have no plan for afterwards.
Unfortunately, I suspect they may be losing bets, as I think the Corbyn wing will get a successor of their own elected, as and when Jezza goes. McDonnell, or some other acolyte...
So, I'll not mention any names yet. You can probably deduce some possibles from my a)-e) list offered previously.
But once again, it should be commonsense that, no matter how unsatisfactory the current arrangement is, you don't ditch it until you've got a better arrangement lined up. And I come back to the point that it's not at all obvious to me that the PLP moderates would be a better arrangement, when they just showed how spectacularly bad their political judgement was with the EU Referendum.
It just isn't clear what that looks like yet.
/edit except of course if Brexit turns into such a disaster that people just vote for any non-Tory in protest. But that isn't a happy scenario and doesn't really solve any of the underlying issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T_ow1UJZJs
started earlier than scheduled!
He is a just a walking cliche
PEC upgraded his chances to 35% today, due to some old missed polls...
Emailgate and shy-Trumpism are still unknown quantities.
"Defeated Labour rebels admit 'it's finished' as Jeremy Corbyn refuses to resign as leader"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/06/defeated-labour-rebels-admit-its-finished-as-jeremy-corbyn-refus/
Those would presumably be the non-voters who turned out in the referendum.
http://www.conservativehome.com/ukip-watch/2016/07/after-farage-ukip-is-embarking-on-its-fourth-age-and-one-man-intends-to-be-its-architect.html
Beyond that the primary task of the Labour leader at the next GE will be to deny the Tories an overall majority. Corbyn can't do that either.
The kipper members share the disconnect from their voters that Labour and Tories have.
https://tompride.wordpress.com/2014/05/09/ukip-deputy-leader-calls-for-end-of-nhs/
He's the best of the options in Paddy Power's UKIP list, but he's not good enough.
They should have known that, with the utter rage there is among a lot of lower-income voters right now, a campaign based on wonkish facts and statistics, was never going to win out over an emotional appeal for change by any means necessary. But if the Labour MPs didn't spot that was the mood with their own voters, even though that should've been blatantly obvious to anyone who was even vaguely in touch with public opinion, makes me think they would produce similarly tone-deaf campaigns if they got control back of the party.
Isn't it just the case that people tend to identify an enemy and just disagree with them whatever? In the case of the former it is a stereotype of the right wing, and in the latter a dislike of centrists that have ruined their lives?
Nah. UKIP are in disarray too, a mess of infighting and backstabbing along with incoherence over the future. The Leave win is a phyrric victory for them. Look at the fiasco with Hamilton and HQ over Wales, or the bizarre distance between Farage and Carswell or Evans.
Most likely Leave will soon be an orphan, unwanted and unloved by anyone, as we shrink our place in the world along with our economy.
Leave voters will mostly go back to their usual parties at election times, or back to non-participation.