We open doors and windows at their will, occupy 10% of the bed space as they stretch out, and put off going for a wee when they're pretending to be asleep on our laps.
We all know who's in charge here.
Quite right, Miss P. I am now pretty much confined to the spare room because Thomas, taking over from the late and much lamented Brute, settles on my side of the bed while I am cleaning my teeth. If I try and pull a fast one by going to bed first he simply gets into bed between Herself and I and then applies claws - to Herself. I get slung out.
Whisper this: I don't complain. I can listen to the wireless, read and use the computer all for as long as I want at whatever hour I want. If herself found out that being banished from the matrimonial bed was not actually a punishment, she might come up with something that was.
The sensible wing of Labour now need to start talking seriously to the unions and potential donors for SDP2. Corbyn's going nowhere until at least 2020, when he will hand over to his appointed successor.
In the meantime there are boundary changes coming up which will necessitate everyone being deselected, and Corbyn will no doubt try and weaken further the role of the MPs in deciding the Party leadership in future.
I'm with the PM here, as he said last week at PMQs for the good of the country there needs to be a government-in-waiting sitting opposite the govt and holding them to account. It's clear that Corbyn can't do this, so they need to come together collectively and form a party that will.
An excellent intelligent post by one of Labour's opponents who nevertheless has the brains and mental capacity to consider their situation in a practical way.
Thanks. Hopefully there's enough support in the PLP and the wider party that see their role as obtaining power.
If more than half the party defect they will get the LotO role and front bench seats, can send Corbyn and friends to sit next to the Scots Nats while they get on with the important job of opposing the government during what will be a difficult few years for those running the country.
Most Lab MPs have a Union background, if they can't see now that they have to act collectively, they never will!
Labour rebels are in retreat after admitting that Jeremy Corbyn cannot be removed and would "win easily" if a leadership election is triggered.
One senior Labour MP said: "It's finished" as it emerged that lengthy talks between union bosses and Tom Watson, the party's deputy leader, had failed to find a solution to the deadlock.
FPT, that's a great article from Matt Singh. It also suggests that Isam was quite right (and I was quite wrong) that voters in places like Jaywick would swing this.
Both sides had unreliable allies. Remain needed the young. Leave needed the politically disengaged.
TBH, I'm quite sick of the pandering to *young voters* as if they're a superior form of life. We've had it again and again, and they still can't be arsed until they grow up, get a job, move out or have kids.
A historical metric of the younger voting demographic would be fascinating. Have they always been so flaky?
I was certainly never implored to vote back in the 80s to vote when I was 18.
I actually think it's a good thing that they have been encouraged to vote so much in recent elections and referendums. My lads are now quite politically engaged, and I'm more than happy about that, even though we call the youngest Trotsky as a family nickname. Of course, the flip side is that now they are more aware, it's tough shit if they can't be arsed to get out and vote.
Why've you named one of your boys after @tyson 's dog?
Tyson's dog is also a girl. She's oppressed.
She is transgendered. Don't oppress her with your narrow gender roles...
Her owner did that. She's a slave to his neo-liberal agenda. How can anyone treat the vulnerable canine population in such a cavalier fashion? King Charles despite his anti-republican sentiments would agree.
#AllDogsMatter
Owner? Owner? OWNER?
How dare you suggest some hierarchy of authority, some master-slave relationship!
She is a free partner who merely chooses to co-exist temporarily in a similar physical location to @tyson
Dogs are only comfortable in heirarchical structures, where they know their place. Dogs have owners, cats have staff.
For any dog owners with tricky housemates - I can't recommend Cesar Milan enough. He conquers almost every bloody minded attitude in a week or less.
Labour rebels are in retreat after admitting that Jeremy Corbyn cannot be removed and would "win easily" if a leadership election is triggered.
One senior Labour MP said: "It's finished" as it emerged that lengthy talks between union bosses and Tom Watson, the party's deputy leader, had failed to find a solution to the deadlock.
Evening all. Been out canvassing the important gay Tory constituency. Wall to wall Mayists.
So Labour's exquisite torture continues. That's what comes when you have a leader who can't shape up and won't ship out and a PLP who don't put up and won't shut up!
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
Talk to the likes od John Mills, Adil Nasir and other major donors and begin planning a split. It's the only way to get away from the insane far left. Have proper rules about leadership and then start to try and woo the sane unions for affiliation and begin to act as real Labour. Don't forget that if you are the major party after the split then you'll be the main opposition party.
A good post. Thanks Max.
While Labour being destroyed by Corbyn is funny to me, I do think it's about time we had a proper opposition. School is going to be in session after the summer break and we need a strong centre left voice to represent the other half of the country in the EU negotiations. We need to make sure that we have a cross party, cross political settlement for such a huge question. Corbyn brings nothing to the table, and he doesn't warrant a seat at it. We need Labour or whichever party wants to replace them to get their act together for the sake of the nation.
It's not just a centre left voice in EU negotiations, it's a rational right one as well...
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
The problem is they've taken it to the brink, and now appear to be stepping back. If they don't challenge him they are humiliated; do they wait and simply not stand for re-selection, or else kowtow to a man they think is unsuited. If they challenge him and lose, as seems likely, they are also humiliated; many will either be swept away by deselection or will be forced to go along with everything he says (this would not be a normal, such as any can be, leadership challenge, they have directly said he is simply not up to the job, it isn't like saying he is not the best person and they can get on afterwards) and lose all integrity.
How they avoid splitting in that situation I don't know, in that scenario it would seem to be necessary, but if they do lose that means most members aren't with them, and who thinks they will be the visionary able to create a new party from nothing and raise it to the type of challenge for power they want and feel the country needs? Not a single one. It's too daunting.
Taking a long view, riding out the Corbynista storm seems the way they will go.
Labour rebels are in retreat after admitting that Jeremy Corbyn cannot be removed and would "win easily" if a leadership election is triggered.
One senior Labour MP said: "It's finished" as it emerged that lengthy talks between union bosses and Tom Watson, the party's deputy leader, had failed to find a solution to the deadlock.
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
I think the PLP need to trigger a leadership race to work out where the membership stands. If Momentum really have managed to get 200k Corbyn supporters to join in the last few days, at least know that for sure. Because once you know that, you know the far left will win the next leadership election after Corbyn. And once you know that, then the PLP splitting away becomes the logical option.
Theresa May had better replace Osborne when she gets in.
How much were you allowed?
£100 at 4-7 "No"
Mr Osborne is behaving as if he thinks he's safe.
"he is briefing out his plans for the Autumn Statement, delivering a lecture at the Centre for Policy Studies on Monday and while he has carefully avoided backing a horse in the leadership race, he has also noticeably failed to quash rumours that one candidate or another might recruit him to continue as Chancellor or serve in another Cabinet role."
Labour rebels are in retreat after admitting that Jeremy Corbyn cannot be removed and would "win easily" if a leadership election is triggered.
One senior Labour MP said: "It's finished" as it emerged that lengthy talks between union bosses and Tom Watson, the party's deputy leader, had failed to find a solution to the deadlock.
After the front bench fiasco there were only 2 options - put up and shut up or go and form a new party.
I called it as a desperate, hopeless bluff over a week ago...
You are rarely incorrect.
What would you do instead, were you the PLP?
Make Corbyn's time as leader impossible. Work-to-rule on steroids. Come out on strike when necessary.
If every non-Corbynite worked together they could refuse to vote, not attend meetings, etc.
The Labour party was founded by unions helping working people stand together against bad management. If MPs cannot see what they need to do, then the Labour party really is finished.
Labour rebels are in retreat after admitting that Jeremy Corbyn cannot be removed and would "win easily" if a leadership election is triggered.
One senior Labour MP said: "It's finished" as it emerged that lengthy talks between union bosses and Tom Watson, the party's deputy leader, had failed to find a solution to the deadlock.
@telescoper: It's a pity Andrea Leadsom had to miss the game. As an experienced international Centre-half she might have prevented the Portuguese goals.
@John_M Had a refurb done last year, kitchen, study, utility room. All new woodwork. Day after the workmen had departed, Yorkiepoos (Molly & Rosie) had chewed every piece of skirting board, stair paneling and pillar. Their death sentences were commuted to hugs.
Ya big softy
Guilty as charged .
I'm pro-Yorkiepoo and pro- other people having them. Blair would have never invaded Iraq, had he been bathed in the love of a Yorkiepoo. Brown would have been a better chancellor. Never mind owls, Miliband should have....you get the drift.
How big is a YorkiePoo?
Without being too graphic - a Standard Poodle is about 20x bigger than a Yorkie
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
I think the PLP need to trigger a leadership race to work out where the membership stands. If Momentum really have managed to get 200k Corbyn supporters to join in the last few days, at least know that for sure. Because once you know that, you know the far left will win the next leadership election after Corbyn. And once you know that, then the PLP splitting away becomes the logical option.
I think so too. There needs to be an election to be sure.
If Jezza gets re-elected after this shambolic year, then there is no hope for the Labour Party and no future for the sensible left within it.
Ian Austin is having some shit on Twitter. Apparently he was the MP who heckled Corbyn today.
From memory, Ian Austin is a staunch, dark arts Brownite. And I think I'm right in saying him and Tom Watson are big pals (weren't they the two MPs who originally plotted with Brown to oust Blair)?
The heckle was nasty today and ill-advised, especially given the gravity of the war and the bereaved families. But Austin has form as a nasty fucker.
If he couldn't help himself today, and if - as I think he is - he is still big pals with Watson, then the split in the Labour party must be very ugly indeed.
Labour rebels are in retreat after admitting that Jeremy Corbyn cannot be removed and would "win easily" if a leadership election is triggered.
One senior Labour MP said: "It's finished" as it emerged that lengthy talks between union bosses and Tom Watson, the party's deputy leader, had failed to find a solution to the deadlock.
McDonnell looks increasingly like post-split value
Wot, not David Miliband? < /sarcasm > Still inexplicably 9.8 third favourite on Betfair, does anyone know why?
No idea, I've got £140 laid at an average of 9.63 on him - hopefully he'll head out to 20s+ in the next year or so so I can get back the cash.
I only stayed away because I didn't really want 1/9 or 1/10 sitting there for a year or two, I'd figured Corbyn wasn't going anywhere any time soon, which appears to have proved correct.
But it it likely impossible for a non-far left candidate ever to win the nomination.
I was talking about a really long storm. If the Tories win again in 2020, and even after that the strain of Corbynism is not looking like challenging them, the grip of the far left will fall. Or after so long in power, with the weaknesses that brings and the state the county might be in, maybe the Corbynistas will finally appear attractive to the country at large.
Labour rebels are in retreat after admitting that Jeremy Corbyn cannot be removed and would "win easily" if a leadership election is triggered.
One senior Labour MP said: "It's finished" as it emerged that lengthy talks between union bosses and Tom Watson, the party's deputy leader, had failed to find a solution to the deadlock.
McDonnell looks increasingly like post-split value
Wot, not David Miliband? < /sarcasm > Still inexplicably 9.8 third favourite on Betfair, does anyone know why?
No idea, I've got £140 laid at an average of 9.63 on him - hopefully he'll head out to 20s+ in the next year or so so I can get back the cash.
I only stayed away because I didn't really want 1/9 or 1/10 sitting there for a year or two, I'd figured Corbyn wasn't going anywhere any time soon, which appears to have proved correct.
I have some bets on Corbyn staying till next year. Hopefully after Batley and Spen D Mili will drift a bit
Ian Austin is having some shit on Twitter. Apparently he was the MP who heckled Corbyn today.
From memory, Ian Austin is a staunch, dark arts Brownite. And I think I'm right in saying him and Tom Watson are big pals (weren't they the two MPs who originally plotted with Brown to oust Blair)?
The heckle was nasty today and ill-advised, especially given the gravity of the war and the bereaved families. But Austin has form as a nasty fucker.
If he couldn't help himself today, and if - as I think he is - he is still big pals with Watson, then the split in the Labour party must be very ugly indeed.
Whilst some of the punch and Judy regaring the PLP and Corbyn is quite amusing, Ian Austin deserves everything he gets for heckling Corbyn during this particular speech. What a complete wally.
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
Before Corbyn was elected, I wrote a couple of posts about the potential end-results if Corbyn were elected. I think there were five options, of which two were splits. One was a split where Corbynites held the 'current' party whilst the PLP created a new party, and the other vice versa.
Unless the Labour Party has a sudden fit of sanity (which is unlikely when the members, voters and MPs are so at odds on the future direction of the party) then a split seems most likely. Unfortunately for the centrists, the left-wingers will probably hold the party title, any assets, databases etc. This will all have to be rebuilt for a new party. But they will also hold any debts.
Someone the other day (sorry, can't remember who) suggested that the Co-op party could be used a basis for a new party. This seems like a good idea, *if* it is workable. I've no idea if it would be, or if the Co-op party would want it. It'd be good to get the opinion of someone who knows the relevant organisations well - I don't.
If there were a new party, it would make sense for the new and old Labour to work together. But because of the way the parties are splitting, they may well end up fighting each other harder than the Conservatives.
IMO the old adage applies: If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well It were done quickly. Instead of prevaricating, when it becomes clear to the centrists that the party has gone away from them, they should do it. Perhaps that time is already upon them.
And of course there's another complicating factor: boundary changes. If thee occur, some sitting Labour MPs might find themselves deseleced, which would make their claim to be 'real' Labour harder. It''d be best if it was done before then.
And before Conservatives start crowing, we may only be a few weeks away from their party going down the same road, depending on who wins.
@John_M Had a refurb done last year, kitchen, study, utility room. All new woodwork. Day after the workmen had departed, Yorkiepoos (Molly & Rosie) had chewed every piece of skirting board, stair paneling and pillar. Their death sentences were commuted to hugs.
Ya big softy
Guilty as charged .
I'm pro-Yorkiepoo and pro- other people having them. Blair would have never invaded Iraq, had he been bathed in the love of a Yorkiepoo. Brown would have been a better chancellor. Never mind owls, Miliband should have....you get the drift.
How big is a YorkiePoo?
Without being too graphic - a Standard Poodle is about 20x bigger than a Yorkie
They come in two flavours: Toy Poodle - Yorkie cross (avoid) and Miniature Poodle - Yorkie crosses. Stand about a foot high at the shoulder. Non-shedding, quiet, loyal, loving, will walk all day or curl up on your lap. The Mary Poppins of dogs.
We open doors and windows at their will, occupy 10% of the bed space as they stretch out, and put off going for a wee when they're pretending to be asleep on our laps.
We all know who's in charge here.
Quite right, Miss P. I am now pretty much confined to the spare room because Thomas, taking over from the late and much lamented Brute, settles on my side of the bed while I am cleaning my teeth. If I try and pull a fast one by going to bed first he simply gets into bed between Herself and I and then applies claws - to Herself. I get slung out.
Whisper this: I don't complain. I can listen to the wireless, read and use the computer all for as long as I want at whatever hour I want. If herself found out that being banished from the matrimonial bed was not actually a punishment, she might come up with something that was.
Smart move - one I totally concur with.
My most recent addition Bayou is a total pain around 3am. And bossy. She reads @CatFoodBreath.
But it it likely impossible for a non-far left candidate ever to win the nomination.
I was talking about a really long storm. If the Tories win again in 2020, and even after that the strain of Corbynism is not looking like challenging them, the grip of the far left will fall. Or after so long in power, with the weaknesses that brings and the state the county might be in, maybe the Corbynistas will finally appear attractive to the country at large.
Most of us are going to be dead by then, need to sort it out before then.
Labour rebels are in retreat after admitting that Jeremy Corbyn cannot be removed and would "win easily" if a leadership election is triggered.
One senior Labour MP said: "It's finished" as it emerged that lengthy talks between union bosses and Tom Watson, the party's deputy leader, had failed to find a solution to the deadlock.
McDonnell looks increasingly like post-split value
Wot, not David Miliband? < /sarcasm > Still inexplicably 9.8 third favourite on Betfair, does anyone know why?
No idea, I've got £140 laid at an average of 9.63 on him - hopefully he'll head out to 20s+ in the next year or so so I can get back the cash.
I only stayed away because I didn't really want 1/9 or 1/10 sitting there for a year or two, I'd figured Corbyn wasn't going anywhere any time soon, which appears to have proved correct.
I have some bets on Corbyn staying till next year. Hopefully after Batley and Spen D Mili will drift a bit
Politics this year has been like a 200 day Test Match so far, so many twists and turns every day, hard to keep up with it all and we're barely half way through!
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
But it it likely impossible for a non-far left candidate ever to win the nomination.
I was talking about a really long storm. If the Tories win again in 2020, and even after that the strain of Corbynism is not looking like challenging them, the grip of the far left will fall. Or after so long in power, with the weaknesses that brings and the state the county might be in, maybe the Corbynistas will finally appear attractive to the country at large.
Most of us are going to be dead by then, need to sort it out before then.
Either the Corbynistas will be proved right that he and his ideas will be really popular (at least against a 10 year Tory government), or they will be proved wrong and will see the light, or they don't care if they lose. Only one of those options will sort it out in the sense of ending the support for Corbyn and co, and it needs an election before it can happen. We seem to be stepping back from fevered talk of an early GE, so it looks like it will be awhile.
Some very odd phrasing in some of Blair's notes to Bush over Iraq.
"In Britain, right now I couldn't be sure of support from Parliament, Party, public or even some of the Cabinet. And this is Britain. In Europe generally, people just don't have the same sense of urgency post 9/11 as people in the US… At the moment oddly, our best ally might be Russia."
He's writing as if he is on team USA and Britain is a third party whose administration he happens to lead.
In the meantime there are boundary changes coming up which will necessitate everyone being deselected, and Corbyn will no doubt try and weaken further the role of the MPs in deciding the Party leadership in future.
How many seats will be affected?
All 600 of the new, slightly larger, seats. Down from 650 now. Areas with large numbers of contiguous seats held by a single party will need to lose an MP or two, others may find their usually safe seat has suddenly become marginal - or vice versa.
I think Orkney & Shetland is about the only completely unaffected seat. (And probably about the only LibDem hold.)
It will be interesting to see what they manage is Wales. I've yet to see any seat maps that don't involve some pretty major compromises. (Three seats for two towns twenty miles apart, with one seat making a funny lozenge shape between them, for example.)
The sensible wing of Labour now need to start talking seriously to the unions and potential donors for SDP2. Corbyn's going nowhere until at least 2020, when he will hand over to his appointed successor.
In the meantime there are boundary changes coming up which will necessitate everyone being deselected, and Corbyn will no doubt try and weaken further the role of the MPs in deciding the Party leadership in future.
I'm with the PM here, as he said last week at PMQs for the good of the country there needs to be a government-in-waiting sitting opposite the govt and holding them to account. It's clear that Corbyn can't do this, so they need to come together collectively and form a party that will.
An excellent intelligent post by one of Labour's opponents who nevertheless has the brains and mental capacity to consider their situation in a practical way.
Thanks. Hopefully there's enough support in the PLP and the wider party that see their role as obtaining power.
If more than half the party defect they will get the LotO role and front bench seats, can send Corbyn and friends to sit next to the Scots Nats while they get on with the important job of opposing the government during what will be a difficult few years for those running the country.
Most Lab MPs have a Union background, if they can't see now that they have to act collectively, they never will!
Some good responses to my appeal. Thanks to all. PB at its best!
Ian Austin is having some shit on Twitter. Apparently he was the MP who heckled Corbyn today.
From memory, Ian Austin is a staunch, dark arts Brownite. And I think I'm right in saying him and Tom Watson are big pals (weren't they the two MPs who originally plotted with Brown to oust Blair)?
The heckle was nasty today and ill-advised, especially given the gravity of the war and the bereaved families. But Austin has form as a nasty fucker.
If he couldn't help himself today, and if - as I think he is - he is still big pals with Watson, then the split in the Labour party must be very ugly indeed.
Whilst some of the punch and Judy regaring the PLP and Corbyn is quite amusing, Ian Austin deserves everything he gets for heckling Corbyn during this particular speech. What a complete wally.
There are some times when expressions of feeling are best replaced with a dignified silence. Today in Parliament was one of those times.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them into the ditch, he thinks he is reshaping them into a more moral and populist force, and he seems to have seen off intense attacks on his position and therefore the movement he is trying foster. That's a personal success of which many would be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
In the meantime there are boundary changes coming up which will necessitate everyone being deselected, and Corbyn will no doubt try and weaken further the role of the MPs in deciding the Party leadership in future.
How many seats will be affected?
All 600 of the new, slightly larger, seats. Down from 650 now. Areas with large numbers of contiguous seats held by a single party will need to lose an MP or two, others may find their usually safe seat has suddenly become marginal - or vice versa.
I think Orkney & Shetland is about the only completely unaffected seat. (And probably about the only LibDem hold.)
It will be interesting to see what they manage is Wales. I've yet to see any seat maps that don't involve some pretty major compromises. (Three seats for two towns twenty miles apart, with one seat making a funny lozenge shape between them, for example.)
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them into the ditch, he thinks he is reshaping them into a more moral and populist force, and he seems to have seen off intense attacks on his position and therefore the movement he is trying foster. That's a personal success of which many would be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
Labour rebels are in retreat after admitting that Jeremy Corbyn cannot be removed and would "win easily" if a leadership election is triggered.
One senior Labour MP said: "It's finished" as it emerged that lengthy talks between union bosses and Tom Watson, the party's deputy leader, had failed to find a solution to the deadlock.
McDonnell looks increasingly like post-split value
Wot, not David Miliband? < /sarcasm > Still inexplicably 9.8 third favourite on Betfair, does anyone know why?
No idea, I've got £140 laid at an average of 9.63 on him - hopefully he'll head out to 20s+ in the next year or so so I can get back the cash.
I only stayed away because I didn't really want 1/9 or 1/10 sitting there for a year or two, I'd figured Corbyn wasn't going anywhere any time soon, which appears to have proved correct.
I have some bets on Corbyn staying till next year. Hopefully after Batley and Spen D Mili will drift a bit
Politics this year has been like a 200 day Test Match so far, so many twists and turns every day, hard to keep up with it all and we're barely half way through!
I appreciate the sentiment but isn't the analogy a bit off... test matches meander at a gentle pace, so that TMS can talk about Katy Perry and what cake they've been sent.
Labour rebels are in retreat after admitting that Jeremy Corbyn cannot be removed and would "win easily" if a leadership election is triggered.
One senior Labour MP said: "It's finished" as it emerged that lengthy talks between union bosses and Tom Watson, the party's deputy leader, had failed to find a solution to the deadlock.
McDonnell looks increasingly like post-split value
Wot, not David Miliband? < /sarcasm > Still inexplicably 9.8 third favourite on Betfair, does anyone know why?
No idea, I've got £140 laid at an average of 9.63 on him - hopefully he'll head out to 20s+ in the next year or so so I can get back the cash.
I only stayed away because I didn't really want 1/9 or 1/10 sitting there for a year or two, I'd figured Corbyn wasn't going anywhere any time soon, which appears to have proved correct.
I have some bets on Corbyn staying till next year. Hopefully after Batley and Spen D Mili will drift a bit
Politics this year has been like a 200 day Test Match so far, so many twists and turns every day, hard to keep up with it all and we're barely half way through!
@John_M Had a refurb done last year, kitchen, study, utility room. All new woodwork. Day after the workmen had departed, Yorkiepoos (Molly & Rosie) had chewed every piece of skirting board, stair paneling and pillar. Their death sentences were commuted to hugs.
Ya big softy
Guilty as charged .
I'm pro-Yorkiepoo and pro- other people having them. Blair would have never invaded Iraq, had he been bathed in the love of a Yorkiepoo. Brown would have been a better chancellor. Never mind owls, Miliband should have....you get the drift.
How big is a YorkiePoo?
Without being too graphic - a Standard Poodle is about 20x bigger than a Yorkie
They come in two flavours: Toy Poodle - Yorkie cross (avoid) and Miniature Poodle - Yorkie crosses. Stand about a foot high at the shoulder. Non-shedding, quiet, loyal, loving, will walk all day or curl up on your lap. The Mary Poppins of dogs.
Ahh, I like big kitties - Maine Coons [used to breed] can grow up to:
"In 2010, the Guinness World Records accepted a male purebred Maine Coon named "Stewie" as the "Longest Cat" measuring 48.5 in (123 cm) from the tip of his nose to the tip of his tail" Wiki
I don't notice how big they are compared to the average house cat.
My favourite dogs are greyhounds and GSDs. Greyhounds are pretty stupid/can't play fetch IME, GSDs are very clever. I've always fancied a Standard Poodle - I gather they're even smarter than Collies and top of the IQ stakes.
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
Talk to the likes od John Mills, Adil Nasir and other major donors and begin planning a split. It's the only way to get away from the insane far left. Have proper rules about leadership and then start to try and woo the sane unions for affiliation and begin to act as real Labour. Don't forget that if you are the major party after the split then you'll be the main opposition party.
A good post. Thanks Max.
While Labour being destroyed by Corbyn is funny to me, I do think it's about time we had a proper opposition. School is going to be in session after the summer break and we need a strong centre left voice to represent the other half of the country in the EU negotiations. We need to make sure that we have a cross party, cross political settlement for such a huge question. Corbyn brings nothing to the table, and he doesn't warrant a seat at it. We need Labour or whichever party wants to replace them to get their act together for the sake of the nation.
It's not just a centre left voice in EU negotiations, it's a rational right one as well...
No doubt why so many of us hope Leadsom won't make the ballot. She is our Corbyn.
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
I think the PLP need to trigger a leadership race to work out where the membership stands. If Momentum really have managed to get 200k Corbyn supporters to join in the last few days, at least know that for sure. Because once you know that, you know the far left will win the next leadership election after Corbyn. And once you know that, then the PLP splitting away becomes the logical option.
Yes, that's a very good point. I do wonder if they have nothing to lose by doing that.
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
Talk to the likes od John Mills, Adil Nasir and other major donors and begin planning a split. It's the only way to get away from the insane far left. Have proper rules about leadership and then start to try and woo the sane unions for affiliation and begin to act as real Labour. Don't forget that if you are the major party after the split then you'll be the main opposition party.
A good post. Thanks Max.
While Labour being destroyed by Corbyn is funny to me, I do think it's about time we had a proper opposition. School is going to be in session after the summer break and we need a strong centre left voice to represent the other half of the country in the EU negotiations. We need to make sure that we have a cross party, cross political settlement for such a huge question. Corbyn brings nothing to the table, and he doesn't warrant a seat at it. We need Labour or whichever party wants to replace them to get their act together for the sake of the nation.
It's not just a centre left voice in EU negotiations, it's a rational right one as well...
No doubt why so many of us hope Leadsom won't make the ballot. She is our Corbyn.
You may say that, but if Leadsom won and called a snap election, she would be likely to get a landslide majority.
Labour rebels are in retreat after admitting that Jeremy Corbyn cannot be removed and would "win easily" if a leadership election is triggered.
One senior Labour MP said: "It's finished" as it emerged that lengthy talks between union bosses and Tom Watson, the party's deputy leader, had failed to find a solution to the deadlock.
McDonnell looks increasingly like post-split value
20/1 yes 10/1 no
Instinctively I agreed with you but thinking about it even 10/1 might be value, if we genuinely think a split is getting close to 50-50. McDonnell must be close to evens to be next leader of a rump Corbynite PLP.
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
Talk to the likes od John Mills, Adil Nasir and other major donors and begin planning a split. It's the only way to get away from the insane far left. Have proper rules about leadership and then start to try and woo the sane unions for affiliation and begin to act as real Labour. Don't forget that if you are the major party after the split then you'll be the main opposition party.
A good post. Thanks Max.
While Labour being destroyed by Corbyn is funny to me, I do think it's about time we had a proper opposition. School is going to be in session after the summer break and we need a strong centre left voice to represent the other half of the country in the EU negotiations. We need to make sure that we have a cross party, cross political settlement for such a huge question. Corbyn brings nothing to the table, and he doesn't warrant a seat at it. We need Labour or whichever party wants to replace them to get their act together for the sake of the nation.
It's not just a centre left voice in EU negotiations, it's a rational right one as well...
No doubt why so many of us hope Leadsom won't make the ballot. She is our Corbyn.
You may say that, but if Leadsom won and called a snap election, she would be likely to get a landslide majority.
True. With Corbyn at the helm, @Pulpstar's cat would be looking at an 80 seat surplus.
On a note to my previous post it might be worth asking if Roger has anything to contribute wrt any new left-wing party and branding.
In some ways a political party is just a brand. How easy would it be to set up a brand-new brand and firmly entrench it in the consciousness of the public? What has to be done? What advantages can there be in rebranding an existing product (essentially New Labour) and hence ridding itself of the negatives of the old brand?
Labour rebels are in retreat after admitting that Jeremy Corbyn cannot be removed and would "win easily" if a leadership election is triggered.
One senior Labour MP said: "It's finished" as it emerged that lengthy talks between union bosses and Tom Watson, the party's deputy leader, had failed to find a solution to the deadlock.
McDonnell looks increasingly like post-split value
Wot, not David Miliband? < /sarcasm > Still inexplicably 9.8 third favourite on Betfair, does anyone know why?
No idea, I've got £140 laid at an average of 9.63 on him - hopefully he'll head out to 20s+ in the next year or so so I can get back the cash.
I only stayed away because I didn't really want 1/9 or 1/10 sitting there for a year or two, I'd figured Corbyn wasn't going anywhere any time soon, which appears to have proved correct.
I have some bets on Corbyn staying till next year. Hopefully after Batley and Spen D Mili will drift a bit
Politics this year has been like a 200 day Test Match so far, so many twists and turns every day, hard to keep up with it all and we're barely half way through!
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
I think the PLP need to trigger a leadership race to work out where the membership stands. If Momentum really have managed to get 200k Corbyn supporters to join in the last few days, at least know that for sure. Because once you know that, you know the far left will win the next leadership election after Corbyn. And once you know that, then the PLP splitting away becomes the logical option.
Yes, that's a very good point. I do wonder if they have nothing to lose by doing that.
They need to think a little further than the next news cycle. Without a stalking horse candidate, they cannot accurately gauge the mood amongst members. Someone has to lay down their political life for the party.
If Corbyn is reelected by a landslide, the cause is hopeless and it is time to abandon ship. If it's a closer race, then there may be some leverage. Either way, to retreat without a challenge destroys their credibility and makes the Shadow Cabinet shenanigans look like mere gesture politics.
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
Talk to the likes od John Mills, Adil Nasir and other major donors and begin planning a split. It's the only way to get away from the insane far left. Have proper rules about leadership and then start to try and woo the sane unions for affiliation and begin to act as real Labour. Don't forget that if you are the major party after the split then you'll be the main opposition party.
A good post. Thanks Max.
While Labour being destroyed by Corbyn is funny to me, I do think it's about time we had a proper opposition. School is going to be in session after the summer break and we need a strong centre left voice to represent the other half of the country in the EU negotiations. We need to make sure that we have a cross party, cross political settlement for such a huge question. Corbyn brings nothing to the table, and he doesn't warrant a seat at it. We need Labour or whichever party wants to replace them to get their act together for the sake of the nation.
It's not just a centre left voice in EU negotiations, it's a rational right one as well...
No doubt why so many of us hope Leadsom won't make the ballot. She is our Corbyn.
Yep. Wrong person for the current situation. May would be a good PM and Gove probably a good caretaker for a couple of years. Someone with no experience except a dodgy-looking banking CV, no thanks.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them into the ditch, he thinks he is reshaping them into a more moral and populist force, and he seems to have seen off intense attacks on his position and therefore the movement he is trying foster. That's a personal success of which many would be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
Talk to the likes od John Mills, Adil Nasir and other major donors and begin planning a split. It's the only way to get away from the insane far left. Have proper rules about leadership and then start to try and woo the sane unions for affiliation and begin to act as real Labour. Don't forget that if you are the major party after the split then you'll be the main opposition party.
A good post. Thanks Max.
While Labour being destroyed by Corbyn is funny to me, I do think it's about time we had a proper opposition. School is going to be in session after the summer break and we need a strong centre left voice to represent the other half of the country in the EU negotiations. We need to make sure that we have a cross party, cross political settlement for such a huge question. Corbyn brings nothing to the table, and he doesn't warrant a seat at it. We need Labour or whichever party wants to replace them to get their act together for the sake of the nation.
It's not just a centre left voice in EU negotiations, it's a rational right one as well...
No doubt why so many of us hope Leadsom won't make the ballot. She is our Corbyn.
You may say that, but if Leadsom won and called a snap election, she would be likely to get a landslide majority.
Only vs Corbyn, vs a sane Labour split backed by big donors she wouldn't.
Labour rebels are in retreat after admitting that Jeremy Corbyn cannot be removed and would "win easily" if a leadership election is triggered.
One senior Labour MP said: "It's finished" as it emerged that lengthy talks between union bosses and Tom Watson, the party's deputy leader, had failed to find a solution to the deadlock.
After the front bench fiasco there were only 2 options - put up and shut up or go and form a new party.
I called it as a desperate, hopeless bluff over a week ago...
You are rarely incorrect.
What would you do instead, were you the PLP?
Make Corbyn's time as leader impossible. Work-to-rule on steroids. Come out on strike when necessary.
If every non-Corbynite worked together they could refuse to vote, not attend meetings, etc.
The Labour party was founded by unions helping working people stand together against bad management. If MPs cannot see what they need to do, then the Labour party really is finished.
A good point! Thanks!
More accurate to say that Blair couldn't see what he ought to do; i.e., to accept the Jenkins recommendations on PR so that they couldn't get stuck in another period like 1979-97. If we had PR, a split wouldn't be so harmful. Two parties on 20% each would get as many seats as one party on 40%, actually in 1983 I think the two between them had over 45%? .
That article still says there'll be a challenge by Angela Eagle. At least we'd know how things stand. If the YouGov poll on Labour members was right, he'd have a much reduced lead compared to when he was elected at least.
This and the talk here of new parties ignore the fundamental point that the centre-right of the party currently have neither a popular leader nor a popular platform. If they can't even find a viable candidate to stand within the party - which takes almost no effort whatever beyond signing a piece of paper and getting some signatures - how are they going to go about the Herculean task of setting up an entirely new party? You can't do that just with money - you need popular figures and attractive policies, and if they had them they could win without splitting. They have been putting the cart (Beat Corbyn!) before the horse (Develop an alternative) ever since before he was elected.
Does a viable centre-right project (in party terms) actually still exist, as it clearly did under Tony Blair? That's the fundamental question. If it does, then everything else is tactics.
Personally, I think a compromise involving acceptance of the basic anti-austerity agenda and joint leadership with Jeremy as national chair and people like Owen and McDonnell leading the Parliamentary charge may be the most viable practical way forward. I don't think most of the PLP is really still bent on centre-right policies - they just want a more forceful Parliamentary leader.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them into the ditch, he thinks he is reshaping them into a more moral and populist force, and he seems to have seen off intense attacks on his position and therefore the movement he is trying foster. That's a personal success of which many would be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He's delusional.
He's a fanatic. Now, some people think he's a well meaning fanatic, others do not, and whatever his intent many think him a very bad one, and his signature appeal was an unwillingness to bend, ideologically. He has learned a little bit of nuance - a little - but I'd still class him as a fanatic.
Personally I prefer people who are more flexible and woolly, policy wise, probably why it's a shame Cameron had to go - for all his faults and being a Remainer, he seemed committed to not being over committed to most things.
This will definitely be my last post for a long while. I'm over Brexit, of sorts.
The tectonic plates have shifted. Half the Tory party have shown they are economic vandals playing to the nihilistic Brexit ideology. The other half have shown they are either continuing their public school games, or just simply spitting vile at each other.....even so, they do not care about the plight of the UK, or deserve any access to government.
The Labour Party PLP are a pathetic excuse for anything really.
The LD's proved that they would would sell their soul, spit roast their grandparents, and indulge in extreme narcissism to get their hands onto a ministry.
Which leaves us with Corbyn. Cometh the time, cometh the man. Nick Palmer has been right all along about Corbyn....and for that I can only apologise to him. Sorry Nick...you were right all along. I'll say it thrice if you want.
So farewell, pbCOMERs, some of you are particularly vile fuckwits, stupid, thick, closed minded, unattractive, ideologically pathetic, socially inadequate and just sad. Many, however are friendly and fun.
Labour rebels are in retreat after admitting that Jeremy Corbyn cannot be removed and would "win easily" if a leadership election is triggered.
One senior Labour MP said: "It's finished" as it emerged that lengthy talks between union bosses and Tom Watson, the party's deputy leader, had failed to find a solution to the deadlock.
McDonnell looks increasingly like post-split value
Wot, not David Miliband? < /sarcasm > Still inexplicably 9.8 third favourite on Betfair, does anyone know why?
No idea, I've got £140 laid at an average of 9.63 on him - hopefully he'll head out to 20s+ in the next year or so so I can get back the cash.
I only stayed away because I didn't really want 1/9 or 1/10 sitting there for a year or two, I'd figured Corbyn wasn't going anywhere any time soon, which appears to have proved correct.
I have some bets on Corbyn staying till next year. Hopefully after Batley and Spen D Mili will drift a bit
Politics this year has been like a 200 day Test Match so far, so many twists and turns every day, hard to keep up with it all and we're barely half way through!
The problem is everyone's getting out!
Corbyn was clearly out, but the ump called it wrong and the opposing team discussed among themselves whether to send it upstairs, but ran out of time to do it.
In the meantime there are boundary changes coming up which will necessitate everyone being deselected, and Corbyn will no doubt try and weaken further the role of the MPs in deciding the Party leadership in future.
How many seats will be affected?
All 600 of the new, slightly larger, seats. Down from 650 now. Areas with large numbers of contiguous seats held by a single party will need to lose an MP or two, others may find their usually safe seat has suddenly become marginal - or vice versa.
I think Orkney & Shetland is about the only completely unaffected seat. (And probably about the only LibDem hold.)
It will be interesting to see what they manage is Wales. I've yet to see any seat maps that don't involve some pretty major compromises. (Three seats for two towns twenty miles apart, with one seat making a funny lozenge shape between them, for example.)
Yes. The boundary changes are pretty bonkers as many don't reflect natural geographies. I think it's fairly unlikely they will happen anyway, the Tory backbench are opposed.
On a note to my previous post it might be worth asking if Roger has anything to contribute wrt any new left-wing party and branding.
In some ways a political party is just a brand. How easy would it be to set up a brand-new brand and firmly entrench it in the consciousness of the public? What has to be done? What advantages can there be in rebranding an existing product (essentially New Labour) and hence ridding itself of the negatives of the old brand?
Or am I miles off-track on this?
Supplanting an established brand is very hard - you're asking its buyers to swap to something else, but sort of the same. What's the compelling USP to do so? The credibility that'll last?
Coke failed with New Coke. It's the equivalent sell.
Labour's also done this before. Doing it again feels retread and boring/failed.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
Corbyn and his supporters have no interest in defeating the Tories. They want to control the Labour party and make it an extra-Parliamentary force. The proletariat will win on the streets not in the bourgeois surroundings of the Commons. Or something like that. They genuinely do not care if the Tories rule for another 30 years. The struggle is far more important. I think a breakaway is now the only option for anyone on the left who wants an alternative to a Tory government. It will take a long time, but less time than the hard left will have to wait.
This will definitely be my last post for a long while. I'm over Brexit, of sorts.
The tectonic plates have shifted. Half the Tory party have shown they are economic vandals playing to the nihilistic Brexit ideology. The other half have shown they are either continuing their public school games, or just simply spitting vile at each other.....even so, they do not care about the plight of the UK, or deserve any access to government.
The Labour Party PLP are a pathetic excuse for anything really.
The LD's proved that they would would sell their soul, spit roast their grandparents, and indulge in extreme narcissism to get their hands onto a ministry.
Which leaves us with Corbyn. Cometh the time, cometh the man. Nick Palmer has been right all along about Corbyn....and for that I can only apologise to him. Sorry Nick...you were right all along. I'll say it thrice if you want.
So farewell, pbCOMERs, some of you are particularly vile fuckwits, stupid, thick, closed minded, unattractive, ideologically pathetic, socially inadequate and just sad. Many, however are friendly and fun.
Anyway Ciao comrades for now....
Ciao indeed - but remember there will come a time when PB will need you!
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
Talk to the likes od John Mills, Adil Nasir and other major donors and begin planning a split. It's the only way to get away from the insane far left. Have proper rules about leadership and then start to try and woo the sane unions for affiliation and begin to act as real Labour. Don't forget that if you are the major party after the split then you'll be the main opposition party.
A good post. Thanks Max.
While Labour being destroyed by Corbyn is funny to me, I do think it's about time we had a proper opposition. School is going to be in session after the summer break and we need a strong centre left voice to represent the other half of the country in the EU negotiations. We need to make sure that we have a cross party, cross political settlement for such a huge question. Corbyn brings nothing to the table, and he doesn't warrant a seat at it. We need Labour or whichever party wants to replace them to get their act together for the sake of the nation.
It's not just a centre left voice in EU negotiations, it's a rational right one as well...
No doubt why so many of us hope Leadsom won't make the ballot. She is our Corbyn.
So farewell, pbCOMERs, some of you are particularly vile fuckwits, stupid, thick, closed minded, unattractive, ideologically pathetic, socially inadequate and just sad.
Commonly called "PB Tories"
In seriousness, hope you aren't away too long. PB should be a broad church.
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
Talk to the likes od John Mills, Adil Nasir and other major donors and begin planning a split. It's the only way to get away from the insane far left. Have proper rules about leadership and then start to try and woo the sane unions for affiliation and begin to act as real Labour. Don't forget that if you are the major party after the split then you'll be the main opposition party.
A good post. Thanks Max.
While Labour being destroyed by Corbyn is funny to me, I do think it's about time we had a proper opposition. School is going to be in session after the summer break and we need a strong centre left voice to represent the other half of the country in the EU negotiations. We need to make sure that we have a cross party, cross political settlement for such a huge question. Corbyn brings nothing to the table, and he doesn't warrant a seat at it. We need Labour or whichever party wants to replace them to get their act together for the sake of the nation.
It's not just a centre left voice in EU negotiations, it's a rational right one as well...
No doubt why so many of us hope Leadsom won't make the ballot. She is our Corbyn.
Yep. Wrong person for the current situation. May would be a good PM and Gove probably a good caretaker for a couple of years. Someone with no experience except a dodgy-looking banking CV, no thanks.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
Corbyn and his supporters have no interest in defeating the Tories. They want to control the Labour party and make it an extra-Parliamentary force. The proletariat will win on the streets not in the bourgeois surroundings of the Commons. Or something like that. They genuinely do not care if the Tories rule for another 30 years. The struggle is far more important. I think a breakaway is now the only option for anyone on the left who wants an alternative to a Tory government. It will take a long time, but less time than the hard left will have to wait.
I honestly despise the people on the left who are allowing this.
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
Talk to the likes od John Mills, Adil Nasir and other major donors and begin planning a split. It's the only way to get away from the insane far left. Have proper rules about leadership and then start to try and woo the sane unions for affiliation and begin to act as real Labour. Don't forget that if you are the major party after the split then you'll be the main opposition party.
A good post. Thanks Max.
While Labour being destroyed by Corbyn is funny to me, I do think it's about time we had a proper opposition. School is going to be in session after the summer break and we need a strong centre left voice to represent the other half of the country in the EU negotiations. We need to make sure that we have a cross party, cross political settlement for such a huge question. Corbyn brings nothing to the table, and he doesn't warrant a seat at it. We need Labour or whichever party wants to replace them to get their act together for the sake of the nation.
It's not just a centre left voice in EU negotiations, it's a rational right one as well...
No doubt why so many of us hope Leadsom won't make the ballot. She is our Corbyn.
You may say that, but if Leadsom won and called a snap election, she would be likely to get a landslide majority.
Without question. With Corbyn in charge of Labour whoever leads the Tories is on for a huge majority. Maybe the biggest the Tories have had since the war.
In the meantime there are boundary changes coming up which will necessitate everyone being deselected, and Corbyn will no doubt try and weaken further the role of the MPs in deciding the Party leadership in future.
How many seats will be affected?
All 600 of the new, slightly larger, seats. Down from 650 now. Areas with large numbers of contiguous seats held by a single party will need to lose an MP or two, others may find their usually safe seat has suddenly become marginal - or vice versa.
I think Orkney & Shetland is about the only completely unaffected seat. (And probably about the only LibDem hold.)
It will be interesting to see what they manage is Wales. I've yet to see any seat maps that don't involve some pretty major compromises. (Three seats for two towns twenty miles apart, with one seat making a funny lozenge shape between them, for example.)
Yes. The boundary changes are pretty bonkers as many don't reflect natural geographies. I think it's fairly unlikely they will happen anyway, the Tory backbench are opposed.
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
I think the PLP need to trigger a leadership race to work out where the membership stands. If Momentum really have managed to get 200k Corbyn supporters to join in the last few days, at least know that for sure. Because once you know that, you know the far left will win the next leadership election after Corbyn. And once you know that, then the PLP splitting away becomes the logical option.
Yes, that's a very good point. I do wonder if they have nothing to lose by doing that.
They need to think a little further than the next news cycle. Without a stalking horse candidate, they cannot accurately gauge the mood amongst members. Someone has to lay down their political life for the party.
If Corbyn is reelected by a landslide, the cause is hopeless and it is time to abandon ship. If it's a closer race, then there may be some leverage. Either way, to retreat without a challenge destroys their credibility and makes the Shadow Cabinet shenanigans look like mere gesture politics.
Why do people think that Labour MPs are going to leave to form their own party when they didn't even have the balls to call a leadership election? They are utterly spineless.
In the meantime there are boundary changes coming up which will necessitate everyone being deselected, and Corbyn will no doubt try and weaken further the role of the MPs in deciding the Party leadership in future.
How many seats will be affected?
All 600 of the new, slightly larger, seats. Down from 650 now. Areas with large numbers of contiguous seats held by a single party will need to lose an MP or two, others may find their usually safe seat has suddenly become marginal - or vice versa.
I think Orkney & Shetland is about the only completely unaffected seat. (And probably about the only LibDem hold.)
It will be interesting to see what they manage is Wales. I've yet to see any seat maps that don't involve some pretty major compromises. (Three seats for two towns twenty miles apart, with one seat making a funny lozenge shape between them, for example.)
Yes. The boundary changes are pretty bonkers as many don't reflect natural geographies. I think it's fairly unlikely they will happen anyway, the Tory backbench are opposed.
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
He doesn't think he's leading them into the ditch, he thinks he is reshaping them into a more moral and populist force, and he seems to have seen off intense attacks on his position and therefore the movement he is trying foster. That's a personal success of which many would be proud of.
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
He hasn't defeated his opponents. He has scurried into a tiny loophole in the rules and exploited it, despite his staying being unconstitutional
If they won't challenge him because they think he will win any leadership challenge, then he very much has defeated them. Not a total defeat, perhaps, he would rather they not have done it in the first place and he may lack the power to punish them all, if that is even his wish, but if they think he would always win a challenge, what is that but a victory over them?
So farewell, pbCOMERs, some of you are particularly vile fuckwits, stupid, thick, closed minded, unattractive, ideologically pathetic, socially inadequate and just sad.
Commonly called "PB Tories"
PB should be a broad church.
It's as broad as a barn, from Tory wets to Tory drys.
In all seriousness, I would hope so. Tory heavy in these parts, but the left should be loud and forceful!
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
I think the PLP need to trigger a leadership race to work out where the membership stands. If Momentum really have managed to get 200k Corbyn supporters to join in the last few days, at least know that for sure. Because once you know that, you know the far left will win the next leadership election after Corbyn. And once you know that, then the PLP splitting away becomes the logical option.
Yes, that's a very good point. I do wonder if they have nothing to lose by doing that.
They need to think a little further than the next news cycle. Without a stalking horse candidate, they cannot accurately gauge the mood amongst members. Someone has to lay down their political life for the party.
If Corbyn is reelected by a landslide, the cause is hopeless and it is time to abandon ship. If it's a closer race, then there may be some leverage. Either way, to retreat without a challenge destroys their credibility and makes the Shadow Cabinet shenanigans look like mere gesture politics.
Very true. Throw in the stalking horse!
Let me add (this is from a post I made earlier). Labour need some policies, not slogans. 'Anti-austerity' is not a policy. It's hand-wringing. Those policies need to be road tested and not just to the party faithful. There is a place for a decent social-democratic party in this country.
In the meantime there are boundary changes coming up which will necessitate everyone being deselected, and Corbyn will no doubt try and weaken further the role of the MPs in deciding the Party leadership in future.
How many seats will be affected?
All 600 of the new, slightly larger, seats. Down from 650 now. Areas with large numbers of contiguous seats held by a single party will need to lose an MP or two, others may find their usually safe seat has suddenly become marginal - or vice versa.
I think Orkney & Shetland is about the only completely unaffected seat. (And probably about the only LibDem hold.)
It will be interesting to see what they manage is Wales. I've yet to see any seat maps that don't involve some pretty major compromises. (Three seats for two towns twenty miles apart, with one seat making a funny lozenge shape between them, for example.)
Yes. The boundary changes are pretty bonkers as many don't reflect natural geographies. I think it's fairly unlikely they will happen anyway, the Tory backbench are opposed.
I thought the legislation had already passed?
It has been. Which many seem to have forgotten.
The legislation for the boundaries review has been passed. But Commons approval is required to actually enact the review's recommendations.
In the meantime there are boundary changes coming up which will necessitate everyone being deselected, and Corbyn will no doubt try and weaken further the role of the MPs in deciding the Party leadership in future.
How many seats will be affected?
All 600 of the new, slightly larger, seats. Down from 650 now. Areas with large numbers of contiguous seats held by a single party will need to lose an MP or two, others may find their usually safe seat has suddenly become marginal - or vice versa.
I think Orkney & Shetland is about the only completely unaffected seat. (And probably about the only LibDem hold.)
It will be interesting to see what they manage is Wales. I've yet to see any seat maps that don't involve some pretty major compromises. (Three seats for two towns twenty miles apart, with one seat making a funny lozenge shape between them, for example.)
Yes. The boundary changes are pretty bonkers as many don't reflect natural geographies. I think it's fairly unlikely they will happen anyway, the Tory backbench are opposed.
There are no boundary changes at all proposed as they have not started work on them . Who knows what they will actually come up with
I cannot bring myself to care about Chilcot too much, for posterity and how it can affect how Government runs foreign policy it is important but apart from that it is just hammering away at someone who left power nearly a decade ago and whom most people treat as a figure of ridicule now. If he goes on trial he will not get convicted, he was very clever and played fast and loose with a system that would allow someone like that to get away with it but relied on them not wanting to do so.
As for Corbyn, well stage two of Operation; Lenin's Socks is clearly being implemented. Reworking the Labour part in the image him and his pals view it as always having been, even though it never was this supposed to be this communist tinged protest group. Atlee would be turning in his grave to see a serious party of government turn itself into people who hand around town squares with SWP placards demanding the head of an ex PM and claiming that the current government is an extension of the Bilderberg group.
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
Talk to the likes od John Mills, Adil Nasir and other major donors and begin planning a split. It's the only way to get away from the insane far left. Have proper rules about leadership and then start to try and woo the sane unions for affiliation and begin to act as real Labour. Don't forget that if you are the major party after the split then you'll be the main opposition party.
A good post. Thanks Max.
While Labour being destroyed by Corbyn is funny to me, I do think it's about time we had a proper opposition. School is going to be in session after the summer break and we need a strong centre left voice to represent the other half of the country in the EU negotiations. We need to make sure that we have a cross party, cross political settlement for such a huge question. Corbyn brings nothing to the table, and he doesn't warrant a seat at it. We need Labour or whichever party wants to replace them to get their act together for the sake of the nation.
It's not just a centre left voice in EU negotiations, it's a rational right one as well...
No doubt why so many of us hope Leadsom won't make the ballot. She is our Corbyn.
What total hyperbolic tripe.
If Theresa May has over 220 mps supporting her, voting for Andrea with her lack of experience and hard line Brexiteer views would create unnecessary tensions both in the party and also in Europe where calm heads are needed. That doesn't mean that Nick Bowles's comments tonight aren't anything other than crass
So farewell, pbCOMERs, some of you are particularly vile fuckwits, stupid, thick, closed minded, unattractive, ideologically pathetic, socially inadequate and just sad.
Commonly called "PB Tories"
PB should be a broad church.
It's as broad as a barn, from Tory wets to Tory drys.
In all seriousness, I would hope so. Tory heavy in these parts, but the left should be loud and forceful!
The two axis: dry to wet, and not obsessed about gays and Europe to obsessed about gays and Europe.
In the meantime there are boundary changes coming up which will necessitate everyone being deselected, and Corbyn will no doubt try and weaken further the role of the MPs in deciding the Party leadership in future.
How many seats will be affected?
All 600 of the new, slightly larger, seats. Down from 650 now. Areas with large numbers of contiguous seats held by a single party will need to lose an MP or two, others may find their usually safe seat has suddenly become marginal - or vice versa.
I think Orkney & Shetland is about the only completely unaffected seat. (And probably about the only LibDem hold.)
It will be interesting to see what they manage is Wales. I've yet to see any seat maps that don't involve some pretty major compromises. (Three seats for two towns twenty miles apart, with one seat making a funny lozenge shape between them, for example.)
Yes. The boundary changes are pretty bonkers as many don't reflect natural geographies. I think it's fairly unlikely they will happen anyway, the Tory backbench are opposed.
I thought the legislation had already passed?
It has been. Which many seem to have forgotten.
The legislation for the boundaries review has been passed. But Commons approval is required to actually enact the review's recommendations.
You may say that, but if Leadsom won and called a snap election, she would be likely to get a landslide majority.
Jesus: that would be scary:
- Leadsom: someone who doesn't just exaggerate, but who straight lies on her CV, and who's sole claim to fame is repeating "we need to take back control" on TV. Oh yes, and who triggers Article 50 on day one to ensure the UK has the worst possible negotiating position. - Corbyn: like Michael Foot, but without the sparkling wit and intelligence. Also, unpleasant. And willing to share a stage with Hamas and other enemies of the West. - UKIP (leader tbc): ???? - LibDems: would wish to ignore the 52% who voted Leave
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
Corbyn and his supporters have no interest in defeating the Tories. They want to control the Labour party and make it an extra-Parliamentary force. The proletariat will win on the streets not in the bourgeois surroundings of the Commons. Or something like that. They genuinely do not care if the Tories rule for another 30 years. The struggle is far more important. I think a breakaway is now the only option for anyone on the left who wants an alternative to a Tory government. It will take a long time, but less time than the hard left will have to wait.
I honestly despise the people on the left who are allowing this.
I am trying very hard not to. But clearly a lot of Labour members have decided that defeating the Tories is not a priority. I guess a lot of them are comfortably off and don't really feel any downside of there being a Tory government. The arguments are all abstract rather than make or break. It's clear, though, that Labour is now finished as a credible force in British politics. An alternative is needed.
That article still says there'll be a challenge by Angela Eagle. At least we'd know how things stand. If the YouGov poll on Labour members was right, he'd have a much reduced lead compared to when he was elected at least.
This and the talk here of new parties ignore the fundamental point that the centre-right of the party currently have neither a popular leader nor a popular platform. If they can't even find a viable candidate to stand within the party - which takes almost no effort whatever beyond signing a piece of paper and getting some signatures - how are they going to go about the Herculean task of setting up an entirely new party? You can't do that just with money - you need popular figures and attractive policies, and if they had them they could win without splitting. They have been putting the cart (Beat Corbyn!) before the horse (Develop an alternative) ever since before he was elected.
Does a viable centre-right project (in party terms) actually still exist, as it clearly did under Tony Blair? That's the fundamental question. If it does, then everything else is tactics.
Personally, I think a compromise involving acceptance of the basic anti-austerity agenda and joint leadership with Jeremy as national chair and people like Owen and McDonnell leading the Parliamentary charge may be the most viable practical way forward. I don't think most of the PLP is really still bent on centre-right policies - they just want a more forceful Parliamentary leader.
You still don't get it. Corbyn and the far left are flooding the membership with far left fanatics making it impossible for anyone to beat Corbyn unless he stands down. The rules are barmy, but they are the rules. There is plenty of talent in the PLP but it's impossible to for anyone outside the tiny far left grouping to win regardless of how good they are, because they are not true believers. How can you possibly defend the situation? The rebellion is gigantic - 80% of Labour MPs, a constitutional defeat for the leader of epic - possibly unprecedented - proportions, yet Corbyn stays. It's fanaticism. Nothing less.
Talk to the likes od John Mills, Adil Nasir and other major donors and begin planning a split. It's the only way to get away from the insane far left. Have proper rules about leadership and then start to try and woo the sane unions for affiliation and begin to act as real Labour. Don't forget that if you are the major party after the split then you'll be the main opposition party.
A good post. Thanks Max.
While Labour being destroyed by Corbyn is funny to me, I do think it's about time we had a proper opposition. School is going to be in session after the summer break and we need a strong centre left voice to represent the other half of the country in the EU negotiations. We need to make sure that we have a cross party, cross political settlement for such a huge question. Corbyn brings nothing to the table, and he doesn't warrant a seat at it. We need Labour or whichever party wants to replace them to get their act together for the sake of the nation.
It's not just a centre left voice in EU negotiations, it's a rational right one as well...
No doubt why so many of us hope Leadsom won't make the ballot. She is our Corbyn.
Yep. Wrong person for the current situation. May would be a good PM and Gove probably a good caretaker for a couple of years. Someone with no experience except a dodgy-looking banking CV, no thanks.
Why do you think May would be a good PM?
There was a long discussion on the subject this morning, but to be brief she's an experienced minister, including six years heading a department known for killing off previously ambitious politicians. She's a calm, older and well respected person, probably the only one capable of uniting a party with a slim majority through a tough few years, with the EU exit negotiations and turbulent economic times ahead.
On a note to my previous post it might be worth asking if Roger has anything to contribute wrt any new left-wing party and branding.
In some ways a political party is just a brand. How easy would it be to set up a brand-new brand and firmly entrench it in the consciousness of the public? What has to be done? What advantages can there be in rebranding an existing product (essentially New Labour) and hence ridding itself of the negatives of the old brand?
Or am I miles off-track on this?
Supplanting an established brand is very hard - you're asking its buyers to swap to something else, but sort of the same. What's the compelling USP to do so? The credibility that'll last?
Coke failed with New Coke. It's the equivalent sell.
Labour's also done this before. Doing it again feels retread and boring/failed.
I'm not sure it's the equivalent sell, as Coke / New Coke were brands within the same organisation. A better example would be one where staff of a company have left to do something very similar, in competition with the original company.
How long did it take UKIP to get off the ground from a standing start. Twenty years or so? A split from Labour would have many advantages that UKIP did not have: a base of MPs; a fair few experienced activists, a fair chunk of Labour's funding.
Their biggest problem might be the Lib Dems sitting on their ground. How many centre-left or left parties can thrive under FPTP? What would the new party's USP be?
You may say that, but if Leadsom won and called a snap election, she would be likely to get a landslide majority.
Jesus: that would be scary:
- Leadsom: someone who doesn't just exaggerate, but who straight lies on her CV, and who's sole claim to fame is repeating "we need to take back control" on TV. Oh yes, and who triggers Article 50 on day one to ensure the UK has the worst possible negotiating position. - Corbyn: like Michael Foot, but without the sparkling wit and intelligence. Also, unpleasant. And willing to share a stage with Hamas and other enemies of the West. - UKIP (leader tbc): ???? - LibDems: would wish to ignore the 52% who voted Leave
Feck.
I thought Leadsome had dialled back her 'declare on day one' claim?
Also I thought the LD policy was not to ignore the 52% who wished to Leave, but to (rather futilely) attempt to convince enough of them they were wrong so that a LD government could reverse Leave?
If the coup is over, when will the deselections begin?
Presumably having pulled back from officially launching a coup - they got as far as putting Corbyn on notice that a coup might occur - the reward for subservience will there not to be mass deselections.
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
Why would Corbyn feel smug? He's a terrible leader driving the main left wing party in the country into the ditch. He's a nasty piece of work if he has any feelings of smugness at the moment.
Corbyn and his supporters have no interest in defeating the Tories. They want to control the Labour party and make it an extra-Parliamentary force. The proletariat will win on the streets not in the bourgeois surroundings of the Commons. Or something like that. They genuinely do not care if the Tories rule for another 30 years. The struggle is far more important. I think a breakaway is now the only option for anyone on the left who wants an alternative to a Tory government. It will take a long time, but less time than the hard left will have to wait.
I honestly despise the people on the left who are allowing this.
I am trying very hard not to. But clearly a lot of Labour members have decided that defeating the Tories is not a priority. I guess a lot of them are comfortably off and don't really feel any downside of there being a Tory government. The arguments are all abstract rather than make or break. It's clear, though, that Labour is now finished as a credible force in British politics. An alternative is needed.
I have a friend who says she is a key member of Momentum here in Oxford. She was trying to claim that they are just a bunch of like-minded people who work to ensure people are on the electoral roll and just help out a bit with canvassing. She was adamant that they aren't a party within a party with an agenda (and a growing penchant for mob rule)
That is where the real problem lies. Momentum is far more dangerous to Labour than Militant ever was.
Once again, despite the predictable wiser-than-thou vapid grandstanding from Plato etc, I ask PBers what their strategy would be, for removing Corbyn. The rules of the Labour Party are insane, but they are nevertheless the rules, and the the PLP has to work within them. The party had banked on Corbyn observing normal constitutional protocol - indeed there is no rule in the party's constitution about a super-majority rebellion because those who wrote it assumed no leader would ever remain in post in such circumstances.
My view is clear, and has been for a while: the PLP should split, if Corbyn refused to stand down. Sad as that may be, it is now probably necessary.
Those who say "oh look at how ruthless the Tories are" need to say what Labour should do instead, given that the PCP and PLP are bound by different rules.
I think the PLP need to trigger a leadership race to work out where the membership stands. If Momentum really have managed to get 200k Corbyn supporters to join in the last few days, at least know that for sure. Because once you know that, you know the far left will win the next leadership election after Corbyn. And once you know that, then the PLP splitting away becomes the logical option.
Yes, that's a very good point. I do wonder if they have nothing to lose by doing that.
They need to think a little further than the next news cycle. Without a stalking horse candidate, they cannot accurately gauge the mood amongst members. Someone has to lay down their political life for the party.
If Corbyn is reelected by a landslide, the cause is hopeless and it is time to abandon ship. If it's a closer race, then there may be some leverage. Either way, to retreat without a challenge destroys their credibility and makes the Shadow Cabinet shenanigans look like mere gesture politics.
Very true. Throw in the stalking horse!
Let me add (this is from a post I made earlier). Labour need some policies, not slogans. 'Anti-austerity' is not a policy. It's hand-wringing. Those policies need to be road tested and not just to the party faithful. There is a place for a decent social-democratic party in this country.
Being anti-austerity is better than being pro-investment along with a strong line in low interest borrowing followed by a reduction in spending once the economy has once again began to grow....comrade. It is much simpler and will fit on a nice placard.
@telescoper: It's a pity Andrea Leadsom had to miss the game. As an experienced international Centre-half she might have prevented the Portuguese goals.
Nick Boles✔ @NickBolesMP I have apologised to @Gove2016 for the message I sent. He did not know about it let alone authorise it. And it does not reflect his views.
In the meantime there are boundary changes coming up which will necessitate everyone being deselected, and Corbyn will no doubt try and weaken further the role of the MPs in deciding the Party leadership in future.
How many seats will be affected?
All 600 of the new, slightly larger, seats. Down from 650 now. Areas with large numbers of contiguous seats held by a single party will need to lose an MP or two, others may find their usually safe seat has suddenly become marginal - or vice versa.
I think Orkney & Shetland is about the only completely unaffected seat. (And probably about the only LibDem hold.)
It will be interesting to see what they manage is Wales. I've yet to see any seat maps that don't involve some pretty major compromises. (Three seats for two towns twenty miles apart, with one seat making a funny lozenge shape between them, for example.)
Yes. The boundary changes are pretty bonkers as many don't reflect natural geographies. I think it's fairly unlikely they will happen anyway, the Tory backbench are opposed.
I get why they went for +/- 5%. But I think it's too narrow. It results in seats that look nothing like underlying settlements (particularly in Wales). We are currently 68,000 +/- 50% or so. I think going for 75,000 +/- 10% would have enabled seats that actually took account of communities, while still being massively better than the existing system.
Talk to the likes od John Mills, Adil Nasir and other major donors and begin planning a split. It's the only way to get away from the insane far left. Have proper rules about leadership and then start to try and woo the sane unions for affiliation and begin to act as real Labour. Don't forget that if you are the major party after the split then you'll be the main opposition party.
A good post. Thanks Max.
While Labour being destroyed by Corbyn is funny to me, I do think it's about time we had a proper opposition. School is going to be in session after the summer break and we need a strong centre left voice to represent the other half of the country in the EU negotiations. We need to make sure that we have a cross party, cross political settlement for such a huge question. Corbyn brings nothing to the table, and he doesn't warrant a seat at it. We need Labour or whichever party wants to replace them to get their act together for the sake of the nation.
It's not just a centre left voice in EU negotiations, it's a rational right one as well...
No doubt why so many of us hope Leadsom won't make the ballot. She is our Corbyn.
Yep. Wrong person for the current situation. May would be a good PM and Gove probably a good caretaker for a couple of years. Someone with no experience except a dodgy-looking banking CV, no thanks.
Why do you think May would be a good PM?
There was a long discussion on the subject this morning, but to be brief she's an experienced minister, including six years heading a department known for killing off previously ambitious politicians. She's a calm, older and well respected person, probably the only one capable of uniting a party with a slim majority through a tough few years, with the EU exit negotiations and turbulent economic times ahead.
1. But she's not noticeably done a good job in the Home Office. 2. There seems to be a big split between the parliamentary party and their constituencies. Most of the MPs supported Remain, but the voters they rely on voted Leave. 3. The PM is not a Dr Manhattan figure, with instances of himself performing every role. Government is a team effort.
That article still says there'll be a challenge by Angela Eagle. At least we'd know how things stand. If the YouGov poll on Labour members was right, he'd have a much reduced lead compared to when he was elected at least.
I don't think most of the PLP is really still bent on centre-right policies - they just want a more forceful Parliamentary leader.
Either that is the case or a lot of them are cowed into submission by the members and are trying to mollify them by pleading that they can have the same policies just with someone else. Some will say the latter is the case, but I find it hard to believe 150 of them could, so I presume you are right about that. Very few of Corbyn's critics seem to be focused on how bad his ideas are (Jamie Reed springs to mind), so it's been a surprise a compromise had not already been reached. I felt Watson repeatedly saying McDonnell spoke for Corbyn and the pair decided things together was his way of saying to Corbynistas that McDonnell would be an acceptable leader, but that might be me hypothesizing too much.
You may say that, but if Leadsom won and called a snap election, she would be likely to get a landslide majority.
Jesus: that would be scary:
- Leadsom: someone who doesn't just exaggerate, but who straight lies on her CV, and who's sole claim to fame is repeating "we need to take back control" on TV. Oh yes, and who triggers Article 50 on day one to ensure the UK has the worst possible negotiating position. - Corbyn: like Michael Foot, but without the sparkling wit and intelligence. Also, unpleasant. And willing to share a stage with Hamas and other enemies of the West. - UKIP (leader tbc): ???? - LibDems: would wish to ignore the 52% who voted Leave
Feck.
I've been saying since mid-June that the biggest risk wasn't the Brexit vote itself, it was how well we executed afterwards. That's heavily dependent on the quality of the team leading the effort.
I've been reading as much as I can about Leadsom and it's made me want to huff into a paper bag to calm down. It's all glitter and flim-flam. I get no sense of any great heft or intellectual hinterland. Charming, but grossly overpromoted.
On a note to my previous post it might be worth asking if Roger has anything to contribute wrt any new left-wing party and branding.
In some ways a political party is just a brand. How easy would it be to set up a brand-new brand and firmly entrench it in the consciousness of the public? What has to be done? What advantages can there be in rebranding an existing product (essentially New Labour) and hence ridding itself of the negatives of the old brand?
Or am I miles off-track on this?
Supplanting an established brand is very hard - you're asking its buyers to swap to something else, but sort of the same. What's the compelling USP to do so? The credibility that'll last?
Coke failed with New Coke. It's the equivalent sell.
Labour's also done this before. Doing it again feels retread and boring/failed.
There is no effective way back for Labour. The writing has been on the wall for years, the failure of the unions made the entire ethos of the party worthless.
Sticking with the New Labour project might have saved the party but they failed to take their voters with them on the journey. If they had spent more time persuading their constituents that wanting businesses to succeed, instead of viewing them as cash cows on which to play parasite, they could have redefined their party on a European social democratic model. Instead they spent all their time promoting multiculturalism and championing trendy politics their voters had no interest in.
They failed and doomed themselves. The likes of Corbyn and Skinner should have been deselected years ago, forced out for failing to offer any modern ideas for a modern world. In the end the New Labour project was abandoned with no idea where to go, creating a vacuum which the old school hard left were the only ones capable of filling.
It's time to just let the thing die. As a brand, Labour no longer has any goodwill to book into the accounts.
On a note to my previous post it might be worth asking if Roger has anything to contribute wrt any new left-wing party and branding.
In some ways a political party is just a brand. How easy would it be to set up a brand-new brand and firmly entrench it in the consciousness of the public? What has to be done? What advantages can there be in rebranding an existing product (essentially New Labour) and hence ridding itself of the negatives of the old brand?
Or am I miles off-track on this?
Supplanting an established brand is very hard - you're asking its buyers to swap to something else, but sort of the same. What's the compelling USP to do so? The credibility that'll last?
Coke failed with New Coke. It's the equivalent sell.
Labour's also done this before. Doing it again feels retread and boring/failed.
That article still says there'll be a challenge by Angela Eagle. At least we'd know how things stand. If the YouGov poll on Labour members was right, he'd have a much reduced lead compared to when he was elected at least.
This and the talk here of new parties ignore the fundamental point that the centre-right of the party currently have neither a popular leader nor a popular platform. If they can't even find a viable candidate to stand within the party - which takes almost no effort whatever beyond signing a piece of paper and getting some signatures - how are they going to go about the Herculean task of setting up an entirely new party? You can't do that just with money - you need popular figures and attractive policies, and if they had them they could win without splitting. They have been putting the cart (Beat Corbyn!) before the horse (Develop an alternative) ever since before he was elected.
Does a viable centre-right project (in party terms) actually still exist, as it clearly did under Tony Blair? That's the fundamental question. If it does, then everything else is tactics.
Personally, I think a compromise involving acceptance of the basic anti-austerity agenda and joint leadership with Jeremy as national chair and people like Owen and McDonnell leading the Parliamentary charge may be the most viable practical way forward. I don't think most of the PLP is really still bent on centre-right policies - they just want a more forceful Parliamentary leader.
You still don't get it. Corbyn and the far left are flooding the membership with far left fanatics making it impossible for anyone to beat Corbyn unless he stands down. The rules are barmy, but they are the rules. There is plenty of talent in the PLP but it's impossible to for anyone outside the tiny far left grouping to win regardless of how good they are, because they are not true believers. How can you possibly defend the situation? The rebellion is gigantic - 80% of Labour MPs, a constitutional defeat for the leader of epic - possibly unprecedented - proportions, yet Corbyn stays. It's fanaticism. Nothing less.
Also to achieve what NPXMP claims as a viable compromise would require a complete rewriting of the Labour rule book and constitution. It is not going to happen.
Labour as we know it is over. The death knell is sounding. Sad but nothing is forever.
Comments
Whisper this: I don't complain. I can listen to the wireless, read and use the computer all for as long as I want at whatever hour I want. If herself found out that being banished from the matrimonial bed was not actually a punishment, she might come up with something that was.
If more than half the party defect they will get the LotO role and front bench seats, can send Corbyn and friends to sit next to the Scots Nats while they get on with the important job of opposing the government during what will be a difficult few years for those running the country.
Most Lab MPs have a Union background, if they can't see now that they have to act collectively, they never will!
https://www.cesarsway.com/ His TV show The Dog Whisperer is a must watch.
So Labour's exquisite torture continues. That's what comes when you have a leader who can't shape up and won't ship out and a PLP who don't put up and won't shut up!
How they avoid splitting in that situation I don't know, in that scenario it would seem to be necessary, but if they do lose that means most members aren't with them, and who thinks they will be the visionary able to create a new party from nothing and raise it to the type of challenge for power they want and feel the country needs? Not a single one. It's too daunting.
Taking a long view, riding out the Corbynista storm seems the way they will go.
"he is briefing out his plans for the Autumn Statement, delivering a lecture at the Centre for Policy Studies on Monday and while he has carefully avoided backing a horse in the leadership race, he has also noticeably failed to quash rumours that one candidate or another might recruit him to continue as Chancellor or serve in another Cabinet role."
http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/07/what-planet-is-osborne-on.html
Is that what they are calling it now?
*end obvious joke*
Without being too graphic - a Standard Poodle is about 20x bigger than a Yorkie
If I were Corbyn I'd be feeling pretty smug right now.
If Jezza gets re-elected after this shambolic year, then there is no hope for the Labour Party and no future for the sensible left within it.
Ian Austin is having some shit on Twitter. Apparently he was the MP who heckled Corbyn today.
From memory, Ian Austin is a staunch, dark arts Brownite. And I think I'm right in saying him and Tom Watson are big pals (weren't they the two MPs who originally plotted with Brown to oust Blair)?
The heckle was nasty today and ill-advised, especially given the gravity of the war and the bereaved families. But Austin has form as a nasty fucker.
If he couldn't help himself today, and if - as I think he is - he is still big pals with Watson, then the split in the Labour party must be very ugly indeed.
Unless the Labour Party has a sudden fit of sanity (which is unlikely when the members, voters and MPs are so at odds on the future direction of the party) then a split seems most likely. Unfortunately for the centrists, the left-wingers will probably hold the party title, any assets, databases etc. This will all have to be rebuilt for a new party. But they will also hold any debts.
Someone the other day (sorry, can't remember who) suggested that the Co-op party could be used a basis for a new party. This seems like a good idea, *if* it is workable. I've no idea if it would be, or if the Co-op party would want it. It'd be good to get the opinion of someone who knows the relevant organisations well - I don't.
If there were a new party, it would make sense for the new and old Labour to work together. But because of the way the parties are splitting, they may well end up fighting each other harder than the Conservatives.
IMO the old adage applies: If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well It were done quickly. Instead of prevaricating, when it becomes clear to the centrists that the party has gone away from them, they should do it. Perhaps that time is already upon them.
And of course there's another complicating factor: boundary changes. If thee occur, some sitting Labour MPs might find themselves deseleced, which would make their claim to be 'real' Labour harder. It''d be best if it was done before then.
And before Conservatives start crowing, we may only be a few weeks away from their party going down the same road, depending on who wins.
http://www.wentwoodpuppies.co.uk/content/yorkiepoos-yorkiechons
(Not my site btw!)
My most recent addition Bayou is a total pain around 3am. And bossy. She reads @CatFoodBreath.
Some very odd phrasing in some of Blair's notes to Bush over Iraq.
"In Britain, right now I couldn't be sure of support from Parliament, Party, public or even some of the Cabinet. And this is Britain. In Europe generally, people just don't have the same sense of urgency post 9/11 as people in the US… At the moment oddly, our best ally might be Russia."
He's writing as if he is on team USA and Britain is a third party whose administration he happens to lead.
It will be interesting to see what they manage is Wales. I've yet to see any seat maps that don't involve some pretty major compromises. (Three seats for two towns twenty miles apart, with one seat making a funny lozenge shape between them, for example.)
Now, I think he's not up for the job and Labour will do very badly under him, and the country suffers as a result. But from a personal perspective defeating opponents must feel good.
"In 2010, the Guinness World Records accepted a male purebred Maine Coon named "Stewie" as the "Longest Cat" measuring 48.5 in (123 cm) from the tip of his nose to the tip of his tail" Wiki
I don't notice how big they are compared to the average house cat.
My favourite dogs are greyhounds and GSDs. Greyhounds are pretty stupid/can't play fetch IME, GSDs are very clever. I've always fancied a Standard Poodle - I gather they're even smarter than Collies and top of the IQ stakes.
In some ways a political party is just a brand. How easy would it be to set up a brand-new brand and firmly entrench it in the consciousness of the public? What has to be done? What advantages can there be in rebranding an existing product (essentially New Labour) and hence ridding itself of the negatives of the old brand?
Or am I miles off-track on this?
If Corbyn is reelected by a landslide, the cause is hopeless and it is time to abandon ship. If it's a closer race, then there may be some leverage. Either way, to retreat without a challenge destroys their credibility and makes the Shadow Cabinet shenanigans look like mere gesture politics.
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/750803912819613696
Does a viable centre-right project (in party terms) actually still exist, as it clearly did under Tony Blair? That's the fundamental question. If it does, then everything else is tactics.
Personally, I think a compromise involving acceptance of the basic anti-austerity agenda and joint leadership with Jeremy as national chair and people like Owen and McDonnell leading the Parliamentary charge may be the most viable practical way forward. I don't think most of the PLP is really still bent on centre-right policies - they just want a more forceful Parliamentary leader.
Personally I prefer people who are more flexible and woolly, policy wise, probably why it's a shame Cameron had to go - for all his faults and being a Remainer, he seemed committed to not being over committed to most things.
The tectonic plates have shifted. Half the Tory party have shown they are economic vandals playing to the nihilistic Brexit ideology. The other half have shown they are either continuing their public school games, or just simply spitting vile at each other.....even so, they do not care about the plight of the UK, or deserve any access to government.
The Labour Party PLP are a pathetic excuse for anything really.
The LD's proved that they would would sell their soul, spit roast their grandparents, and indulge in extreme narcissism to get their hands onto a ministry.
Which leaves us with Corbyn. Cometh the time, cometh the man. Nick Palmer has been right all along about Corbyn....and for that I can only apologise to him. Sorry Nick...you were right all along. I'll say it thrice if you want.
So farewell, pbCOMERs, some of you are particularly vile fuckwits, stupid, thick, closed minded, unattractive, ideologically pathetic, socially inadequate and just sad. Many, however are friendly and fun.
Anyway Ciao comrades for now....
Mmm, nearly a cricket analogy!
Coke failed with New Coke. It's the equivalent sell.
Labour's also done this before. Doing it again feels retread and boring/failed.
In seriousness, hope you aren't away too long. PB should be a broad church.
I'm off to watch Dead Pool
In all seriousness, I would hope so. Tory heavy in these parts, but the left should be loud and forceful!
If he goes on trial he will not get convicted, he was very clever and played fast and loose with a system that would allow someone like that to get away with it but relied on them not wanting to do so.
As for Corbyn, well stage two of Operation; Lenin's Socks is clearly being implemented. Reworking the Labour part in the image him and his pals view it as always having been, even though it never was this supposed to be this communist tinged protest group.
Atlee would be turning in his grave to see a serious party of government turn itself into people who hand around town squares with SWP placards demanding the head of an ex PM and claiming that the current government is an extension of the Bilderberg group.
- Leadsom: someone who doesn't just exaggerate, but who straight lies on her CV, and who's sole claim to fame is repeating "we need to take back control" on TV. Oh yes, and who triggers Article 50 on day one to ensure the UK has the worst possible negotiating position.
- Corbyn: like Michael Foot, but without the sparkling wit and intelligence. Also, unpleasant. And willing to share a stage with Hamas and other enemies of the West.
- UKIP (leader tbc): ????
- LibDems: would wish to ignore the 52% who voted Leave
Feck.
How long did it take UKIP to get off the ground from a standing start. Twenty years or so? A split from Labour would have many advantages that UKIP did not have: a base of MPs; a fair few experienced activists, a fair chunk of Labour's funding.
Their biggest problem might be the Lib Dems sitting on their ground. How many centre-left or left parties can thrive under FPTP? What would the new party's USP be?
Also I thought the LD policy was not to ignore the 52% who wished to Leave, but to (rather futilely) attempt to convince enough of them they were wrong so that a LD government could reverse Leave?
That is where the real problem lies. Momentum is far more dangerous to Labour than Militant ever was.
Nick Boles✔ @NickBolesMP
I have apologised to @Gove2016 for the message I sent. He did not know about it let alone authorise it. And it does not reflect his views.
2. There seems to be a big split between the parliamentary party and their constituencies. Most of the MPs supported Remain, but the voters they rely on voted Leave.
3. The PM is not a Dr Manhattan figure, with instances of himself performing every role. Government is a team effort.
I've been reading as much as I can about Leadsom and it's made me want to huff into a paper bag to calm down. It's all glitter and flim-flam. I get no sense of any great heft or intellectual hinterland. Charming, but grossly overpromoted.
Sticking with the New Labour project might have saved the party but they failed to take their voters with them on the journey. If they had spent more time persuading their constituents that wanting businesses to succeed, instead of viewing them as cash cows on which to play parasite, they could have redefined their party on a European social democratic model. Instead they spent all their time promoting multiculturalism and championing trendy politics their voters had no interest in.
They failed and doomed themselves. The likes of Corbyn and Skinner should have been deselected years ago, forced out for failing to offer any modern ideas for a modern world. In the end the New Labour project was abandoned with no idea where to go, creating a vacuum which the old school hard left were the only ones capable of filling.
It's time to just let the thing die. As a brand, Labour no longer has any goodwill to book into the accounts.
Labour as we know it is over. The death knell is sounding. Sad but nothing is forever.