Well done on the Derby. Stupidly I changed at last minute and did Cloth of Stars.
Unlucky.
I missed all the business about the shoe, or I might have switched too. But then this
@clarebalding: Lots of messages from people who backed Harzand because of my dream - I just wish I had too! Delighted for the Weld family #InvestecDerby
Yes hearing about shoe and all the blood, icepacks etc was a bit of a turnoff, but still my own fault.
Dr. Foxinsox, that's possible. If it occurs and leaving the EU is come to be seen as a bad thing, the problem is not having the alternative (what happens if we stay and ever closer union happens and is a disaster). The reverse, of course, is also true. We'll never know how terrible or great the alternative would've been.
Mr. Llama, if you want to heap opprobrium on the sons of Henry II no man deserves it less than Richard.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
No it isn't about promoting self interest. It is about having a level playing field for all people. Something that doesn't exist under the racist, protectionist system that you support.
Racist how?
It says that people from predominantly white European countries should have more right to travel to the UK to live and work than those from predominantly non white countries, irrespective of their individual qualifications or skills. It is of course not intentionally racist but the overall effect is to discriminate against those from non white countries.
So you favour ending the racist policy of making it easier for predominantly white people from the suburbs to move to London than people from, say, Mogadishu?
Not the same at all. And congratulations for perhaps the most f*ckwitted comment of the week. In case you missed it the UK is a country that everyone on the Remain side keeps claiming has control of its borders and immigration policy. I wasn't aware there was a migration policy regarding movement of people from Woking to London.
If that is the best you can come up with it is no surprise that Remain are sliding in the polls.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
No it isn't about promoting self interest. It is about having a level playing field for all people. Something that doesn't exist under the racist, protectionist system that you support.
Racist how?
The EU's tariff policy, which for example allows people of colour to grow cocoa beans but if they get ideas above their station by making chocolate slaps massive tariffs on them thereby keeping them in their economic place.
Not only is that frankly disgusting, immoral, outrageous and something I want no part of, it is also short sighted, ridiculous and self harming.
I once heard that Dennis Healey described people in favour of the EEC as imperialists with an inferiority complex. There is much I disagree with Healey on but in that he was spot on.
Horseshit, America seems to be doing fine without free movement with anyone.
Erm... you are aware that the US is a union of 50 states with free movement and a single currency?
The UK is a union of 5 states with free movement and a single currency, so what ?
The point is, America has free movement and it has worked out fine for them.
Oh come off it. America is a sovereign nation, the people unsurprisingly move around freely inside its borders. Stop playing silly games. Which other country's citizens have free movement and rights to reside within the continental USA ?
But that's the point. Within America, people get to move within the 50 states and live and work where they wish. Everyone else has to get a visa. In the same way, EU citizens can move between EU states, and everyone else needs a visa.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
No it isn't about promoting self interest. It is about having a level playing field for all people. Something that doesn't exist under the racist, protectionist system that you support.
Racist how?
It says that people from predominantly white European countries should have more right to travel to the UK to live and work than those from predominantly non white countries, irrespective of their individual qualifications or skills. It is of course not intentionally racist but the overall effect is to discriminate against those from non white countries.
So you favour ending the racist policy of making it easier for predominantly white people from the suburbs to move to London than people from, say, Mogadishu?
Not the same at all. And congratulations for perhaps the most f*ckwitted comment of the week. In case you missed it the UK is a country that everyone on the Remain side keeps claiming has control of its borders and immigration policy. I wasn't aware there was a migration policy regarding movement of people from Woking to London.
It was just a simple reductio ad absurdum of your claim that being in the EU is racist because its members are predominantly white. I'd glad you now recognise how f*ckwitted this claim was.
No, in the same way that the EU doesn't have free movement with Turkey or Syria.
The Americans have a free trade agreement with Mexico. It functions without free movement.
They restrict freedom of movement to the people in their union of states which has one president, one currency, one language, one army, a federal tax system etc.
The US is just like the UK. It is not the same as the EU.
The EU is not a single nation, though it would be great if REMAIN tried to make the case for it because Britons don't want it.
Your prognostications seem generally sound Nick, except I don't think Boris could initiate a 2017 General Election as blithely as you think. More likely he will kick off the negotiations and then govern as normal with them going on in the background for many years. I suspect we'll end up with some kind of quasi-EU-membership arrangement barely distinguishable from what we have now, but by then everyone will have forgotten about June 2016 so it won't matter.
I used to be of that view about the election but I've come round to thinking that Labour would have to vote for one or see extreme disillusionment from their rank and file who believe fervently that Corbyn is popular and an election winnable.
If they don't agree an early election, then they can wait - and have boundary changes coming down the pike at them....
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
If Murray plays as well as yesterday, perhaps the best I have ever seen him, he stands an excellent chance. But 2 years ago Federer put in the most complete performance against Murray in the Wimbledon semis, a level that if he had maintained into the Sunday would have surpassed Djoko.
Djoko's ability to get into the heads of his top opponents and stop them playing their best is what makes him so difficult to beat.
Not a bad effort at making a progressive case, but even you admit we are taking a major leap into the unknown, and I don't like many of your fellow travellers.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
Mr. Tyson, you consider me mean-spirited and selfish?
Wanker
I'm happy with taking in more refugees, think foreign aid is fine if better targeted, and don't care about immigration levels. But the EU does not provide enough benefit for the stifling unhelpful control it exerts and contempt it shows for those with concerns, and the latter is why reform us too late to change its nature. For its benefits and ours we should part. We will take a hit, but we have a chance. If it is a mistake we will live with it, but it shill have been more genuinely trying to positively sway us.
There are some very unsavoury people backing Remain, as well.
No, in the same way that the EU doesn't have free movement with Turkey or Syria.
The Americans have a free trade agreement with Mexico. It functions without free movement.
They restrict freedom of movement to the people in their union of states which has one president, one currency, one language, one army, a federal tax system etc.
The US is just like the UK. It is not the same as the EU.
The EU is not a single nation, though it would be great if REMAIN tried to make the case for it because Britons don't want it.
No free movement between Mexico and the US? Someone tell Donald Trump.
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
Not a bad effort at making a progressive case, but even you admit we are taking a major leap into the unknown, and I don't like many of your fellow travellers.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
Mr. Tyson, you consider me mean-spirited and selfish?
Wanker
I'm happy with taking in more refugees, think foreign aid is fine if better targeted, and don't care about immigration levels. But the EU does not provide enough benefit for the stifling unhelpful control it exerts and contempt it shows for those with concerns, and the latter is why reform us too late to change its nature. For its benefits and ours we should part. We will take a hit, but we have a chance. If it is a mistake we will live with it, but it shill have been more genuinely trying to positively sway us.
There are some very unsavoury people backing Remain, as well.
Dan Hodges @DPJHodges 21m21 minutes ago Anyone know why all the bookies have suddenly started shifting odds back to Remain? Is there a new poll coming out?
You can sense the Remainers are getting twitchy. Desperate for any bit of good news. As Isam would say, longing for a throw in to cheer.
They should be getting twitchy. It feels very much like Leave are on their way to surprise (to the media and commentators) win to me.
Yes, I fear you're right. I can see it now: the suited and hunched figure of David Cameron, filmed from a distance, as he stalks into Number 10 for the emergency cabinet meeting; Nigel Farage with pint in hand, face glistening with tears: 'This is, without doubt, the happiest day of my life'. It's going to happen.
Dan Hodges @DPJHodges 21m21 minutes ago Anyone know why all the bookies have suddenly started shifting odds back to Remain? Is there a new poll coming out?
You can sense the Remainers are getting twitchy. Desperate for any bit of good news. As Isam would say, longing for a throw in to cheer.
I have an idea that the last two weeks are going to shift things significantly. Remain are leaving their ad campaign till they can see the whites of the 'Leavers' eyes (to use a line from Zulu-a PB favourite).
An interesting guest thread from Nick Palmer, some of which I agreed with. I was surprised to see however that he thought Boris would win a leadership election to become the next Tory leader. By all accounts he is very unpopular with the parliamentary party, a fact I would have thought NP would have been well aware of, having been an MP himself until just over a year ago. As such I very much doubt Boris would make the final run-off and in the unlikely event that he did, certainly wouldn't get the top job imho.
Having watched the Michael Gove interview again, I thought he did better than I first thought. He dealt with the absolute barracking from Faisal extremely well. I don't think Boris would have had the discipline to cope with that style of interview (a style I'm beginning to find really tedious).
I see Faisal is reviewing the papers on Marr tomorrow. What an egotistical bunch these political commentators are. He needs to be careful.
actually when you look at the ragtag mishaps that make up Brexit- the majority of them would gladly privatise the NHS, and tear up any sense of workers rights.
The more sensible Labour MPs have been making these points. Luckily for Brexit nobody is listening to them.
Great analogy Fox. I have to tell that to my wife who harbours some wistful fantasy about us sailing on the Med.
And buying a holiday home I would suggest, especially one abroad. Seems a wonderfully romantic idea. Not that I have done that terrible mistake either.
I heard last week that there were serious voices in favour of Hilary Benn. I know this doesn't cut much ice with Labour members but if he's popular with his own MP's and they can see a chance winning even at their most suicidal it must be tempting.
And if it is Boris in 2017 and he's forced into an election Benn would be in an ideal position to win. Particularly if things go as badly as expected after Brexit
Boris would beat Benn especially as the electorate themselves voted for Brexit
Wouldn't that rather depend on how Brexit is working out in practice?.
The high point for Leave will be the day it wins the ref (if it does) - down hill all the way after that.
The fickle electorate will rapidly switch from blaming all their woes on the EU (as do they now orchestrated by the right wing press) to blaming all their woes on Brexit.
I think that is spot on in your last paragraph. Within months people will be complaining that immigration numbers are still too high.
A friend once pointed out to me when I was looking at buying a boat: "you only get two good days on a boat, the day you buy it and the day you sell it".
Brexit will be the same reaction, but the Brexiteers will not care, because they will have won.
My friend with the boat quote was an ex-sailboat owner!
A far better tip was to join the Cruising Association. They have regular meets where owners try to recruit crew, and if a Competent Crew with a bit of experience then you can go sailing pretty much whenever you choose. I sailed the Lovely North Coast of Spain that way last year on a Moody 44. It cost me £120 in flights and £40 for the food kitty for a week.
I agree on the holiday home, unless retired. Prior to that every holiday is ruined by having to do or to arrange repairs.
He claims not to remember anything more of the night until he arrived at his house injured and without his personal possessions, including confidential church papers.
Witnesses, however, appear to have filled in the blanks.
They say he ended up in Crucifix Lane, a largely deserted street next to railway arches near his cathedral, at 9.30pm where he clambered into a stranger's Mercedes and started throwing toys on to the road.
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
That's why Trumps coming on the 24th; if Leave win he's going to start building a wall on the NI border
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
The Irish really will be caught between a rock and a hard place on a lot of things.
If our economy dips, so does theirs. If tariffs go on, they get disproportionately hit.
Could somebody please lock Nadine Dorries in a cupboard until after the Referendum. This woman is seriously stepping over the line. Her personal vendetta against the PM is vindictive and nasty.
It was just a simple reductio ad absurdum of your claim that being in the EU is racist because its members are predominantly white. I'd glad you now recognise how f*ckwitted this claim was.
No it was your comparison that was f*ckwitted. The UK is a separate nation. We are not part of a single state (yet) and as such we should control our own borders and immigration in a manner that is fair and equitable for all coming to the country. We do not. Instead we have a policy that says that an uneducated and unskilled person from a (usually overwhelmingly white) European country has more right to settle in Britain than a highly skilled and highly educated person from a India or China or Africa.
That is the policy you are supporting and promoting and it is shameful.
It was just a simple reductio ad absurdum of your claim that being in the EU is racist because its members are predominantly white. I'd glad you now recognise how f*ckwitted this claim was.
No it was your comparison that was f*ckwitted. The UK is a separate nation. We are not part of a single state (yet) and as such we should control our own borders and immigration in a manner that is fair and equitable for all coming to the country. We do not. Instead we have a policy that says that an uneducated and unskilled person from a (usually overwhelmingly white) European country has more right to settle in Britain than a highly skilled and highly educated person from a India or China or Africa.
That is the policy you are supporting and promoting and it is shameful.
Yeah, but we also need to be honest. Outside the EU, we'll still have reciprocal agreements with a number of former British colonies and the like which allow people to live and work in the UK. It won't be the case that *all* foreigners will be subject to exactly the same tests. You can argue that only 20 million people - or whatever it is - will have special rights rather than 200m, but we can't claim that *all* people coming into the UK will be treated equally irrespective of where they come from.
Thank you very much for rather reinforcing my claim.
I was rather hoping that someone could make a progressive and optimistic case for Brexit, but there you go. Too much to ask
OK. Since that's what you want, lets start with migration. Not because its the core of the progressive argument against the EU, but because I'm sick and tired of the way that self-proclaimed "progressives" use it to label those in favour of Brexit.
What exactly then do you consider to be "progressive" about the UK's current approach to migration within the EU, the continuation of which you are so clearly committed to? 1. Promotion of continued low pay and widening wage inequality in the UK workforce through permitting uncontrolled in-migration of people willing to work for next to nothing from countries with a GDP/head perhaps one-fifth of that of the UK, in order to prevent any labour shortages that would require employers to address low pay? (If you do, then Sir Stuart Rose agrees with you.) 2. As house prices escalate, widening inequality in wealth depending on whether you own a home or not, thanks to this unprecedented increase in demand? (Naturally, you're fully signed up to George Osborne's agenda if you like the idea of rapid house price inflation to the benefit of the haves). 3. The desperate attempts of the Government to tighten up and restrict entry of close relatives of existing UK citizens from Commonwealth countries to which the UK has historic ties, in a vain attempt to keep a lid on overall totals, something it would not feel under pressure to do if migration from Eastern Europe were not out of its control? And do you consider people who oppose this (Eastern European) "whites first" policy to be racists? 4. A lamentable lack of UK commitment to assist genuine refugees from Syria and elsewhere, in stark contrast to Canada, a country in control of its own borders and which can thus determine its priorities, with Canada admitting over the past few months Syrian refugees at 25 times the rate of a UK that prioritises EU economic migrants instead? 5. The UK government seeking to avoid any systematic programme of training up young people here (something that might anyway well fall foul of EU state aid rules if there was any significant government spending involved) and instead importing overseas labour to fill those key skills gaps, often from third world countries who can ill afford to lose such skilled people? 6. The indirect but clear catalytic effect that EU migration policy has provided to the parties of the far right across the EU, largely at the expense of declining social democratic parties? Do you think that this makes Europe a safer place?
A great header, and good to concentrate on the political rather than social/economic issues post Brexit.
I struggle to read the whole thread having been back at work all day, but has the impact of Brexit on the Labour party been discussed? I think Corbyn would reconcile himself fairly easily to it, though some in the party less so. I am not entirely convinced that Boris will inherit the Tory crown, but if as you suppose happens and an early election takes place, what happens if the Tories lose?
Most likely it would to be NOC, but conceivably a SNP/LD/Lab coalition in favour of Bremain to negotiate Brexit. What fun that would be!
OT If anyone likes sports books 'The Greatest' by Mohammed Ali about his Foreman fight is the best I've read and possibly the best ever written. It's the psychology of the fight as he saw it
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
That's why Trumps coming on the 24th; if Leave win he's going to start building a wall on the NI border
I find his proposal to visit really odd.
It only makes sense (to me) as an attempt to cash in on a Leave win. But his visit & backing is quite likely to sway voters to Remain.
Is he banking on Americans not noticing if the side he backs, loses?
As a leaver myself, I am doubtful that LEAVE will win the referendum. What I am very confident of however is that the UK will never leave the EU. Should LEAVE prevail, it will be a case of whatever it takes .... from both sides for us to remain in, Germany and others would see to it. Forget Cameron's pathetic non-renegotiation, which ran for all of two months, and which predictably produced SFA in terms of any tangible benefits and will almost certainly end his Premiership as correctly forecast by Nick Palmer.
It was just a simple reductio ad absurdum of your claim that being in the EU is racist because its members are predominantly white. I'd glad you now recognise how f*ckwitted this claim was.
No it was your comparison that was f*ckwitted. The UK is a separate nation. We are not part of a single state (yet) and as such we should control our own borders and immigration in a manner that is fair and equitable for all coming to the country. We do not. Instead we have a policy that says that an uneducated and unskilled person from a (usually overwhelmingly white) European country has more right to settle in Britain than a highly skilled and highly educated person from a India or China or Africa.
That is the policy you are supporting and promoting and it is shameful.
Yeah, but we also need to be honest. Outside the EU, we'll still have reciprocal agreements with a number of former British colonies and the like which allow people to live and work in the UK. It won't be the case that *all* foreigners will be subject to exactly the same tests. You can argue that only 20 million people - or whatever it is - will have special rights rather than 200m, but we can't claim that *all* people coming into the UK will be treated equally irrespective of where they come from.
But you and I should both be supporting a position where we remove those reciprocal arrangements and have a level playing field for all. When you have an unmanageable number of people wanting to come to the country then, whist you are taking steps to reduce demand by changing the pull factors like welfare, you should also be removing any anomalies that discriminate.
Everyone wanting to settle in Britain on a permanent basis who is not British by birth should be subject to the same rights and rules when deciding who will be accepted.
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
That's why Trumps coming on the 24th; if Leave win he's going to start building a wall on the NI border
What happens if the EU one day wakes up and decides that it really has to make itself more competitive on the global stage to address the chronic unemployment and lack of growth that many of its countries have? At that point these social burdens would be gone and these Labour europhiles would be....
Could somebody please lock Nadine Dorries in a cupboard until after the Referendum. This woman is seriously stepping over the line. Her personal vendetta against the PM is vindictive and nasty.
So you do not oppose removing our current racist policy then?
They are only racist to someone with a warped mind such as you .
Discrimination isn't the slightest bit racist in your eyes?
Several years ago, I tried to organise a Sussex PB dinner - Mr Senior made loads of excuses why he wasn't available no matter what date I suggested. I came to the conclusion that he considered anyone other than LDs were unworthy and too dirty to associate with.
I'm in Sussex. (Mid)
Me too, Mr. White, though in Arundel and South Downs Constituency.
Perhaps we should try again for a Sussex PB meet, though because of my eyes it would have to be a lunch rather than a dinner and somewhere I can get to by public transport.
What say you, Miss Plato, Square Root, Mark Senior, Richard Nabavi, Jonathan, and any other Sussex PBers whose names I have, for the moment, forgotten? Lunch in, say, Brighton? We could go to Days and be cheap, cheerful and fattening or perhaps go up market and invite a guest speaker. I do know of a nice pub a stone's throw from the Station that does OK food and first class beer. Open to ideas.
I don't drink anything with alcohol in it, nor anything with too much fat.
There may still be a Lebanese restaurant in Hove Actually. Quite good when I was last there. Dry house but you can bring your own.
A Lenanaese would suit me very nicely, Mr. White and, though I can't talk for others ,I have no objection to bringing my own supplies of the water of life along (i might, as long as I get a taxi from the station be able to carry enough for Miss Plato as well as myself).
Horseshit, America seems to be doing fine without free movement with anyone.
Erm... you are aware that the US is a union of 50 states with free movement and a single currency?
The UK is a union of 5 states with free movement and a single currency, so what ?
Now imagine that but with a proper federal system and scaled up over the whole of Euorpe. Nowhere else in the world could match us.
1. They are not forming a federal system let alone a proper one. They seem to be heading towards a unitary state.
2. It is in decline precisely because its one size fits all fits either few or none.
3. It will end in civil war. Except it will not be civil.
1. There isn't really any evidence for that. All the intellectual and practical foundation of the EU is on the basis of federalism. The strongest constituent nation, Germany, is itself a successful federation. I don't see any grounds for believing that it is headed towards becoming a unitary state.
2. It is not in decline. Asia is on the rise. If we could get over this navel gazing about our relations with Europe we might have more energy to think about something useful such as how we can gain from this.
3. Can you think of a plausible casus belli? Everyone deciding the system doesn't work anymore isn't one. Even the Soviet Union, which actually was a totalitarian state, broke up without immediate war.
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
The Irish really will be caught between a rock and a hard place on a lot of things.
If our economy dips, so does theirs. If tariffs go on, they get disproportionately hit.
It is interesting that one of the arguments that Remain have used on here is that Brexit would lead to Northern Ireland wanting to reunite with Eire.
I fail to see what the problem is here. If the people of Northern Ireland change their view on being part of a united Ireland surely that is a good thing? Self determination and all that stuff.
Everyone wanting to settle in Britain on a permanent basis who is not British by birth should be subject to the same rights and rules when deciding who will be accepted.
What happens if the EU one day wakes up and decides that it really has to make itself more competitive on the global stage to address the chronic unemployment and lack of growth that many of its countries have? At that point these social burdens would be gone and these Labour europhiles would be....
France is currently trying to rationalise its workers rights for exactly that reason.
Most of Nick's sceario is plausible, but a 2017 election? I'm not sure. Certainly, if Boris has a significant honeymoon it's a no-brainer, but if the outcome of all these upheavals is more neutral (which I'd expect - the markets are unlikely to settle down quickly) then it'd make sense to wait - Corbyn's unpopularity notwithstanding. If by 2019 the Brexiteers have been proved right, the Tories will also be able to benefit from the new electoral boundaries that come into effect late in 2018.
One fly in the ointment - will any MPs quit upon Brexit?
So you do not oppose removing our current racist policy then?
They are only racist to someone with a warped mind such as you .
Discrimination isn't the slightest bit racist in your eyes?
Several years ago, I tried to organise a Sussex PB dinner - Mr Senior made loads of excuses why he wasn't available no matter what date I suggested. I came to the conclusion that he considered anyone other than LDs were unworthy and too dirty to associate with.
I'm in Sussex. (Mid)
Me too, Mr. White, though in Arundel and South Downs Constituency.
Perhaps we should try again for a Sussex PB meet, though because of my eyes it would have to be a lunch rather than a dinner and somewhere I can get to by public transport.
What say you, Miss Plato, Square Root, Mark Senior, Richard Nabavi, Jonathan, and any other Sussex PBers whose names I have, for the moment, forgotten? Lunch in, say, Brighton? We could go to Days and be cheap, cheerful and fattening or perhaps go up market and invite a guest speaker. I do know of a nice pub a stone's throw from the Station that does OK food and first class beer. Open to ideas.
I don't drink anything with alcohol in it, nor anything with too much fat.
There may still be a Lebanese restaurant in Hove Actually. Quite good when I was last there. Dry house but you can bring your own.
A Lenanaese would suit me very nicely, Mr. White and, though I can't talk for others ,I have no objection to bringing my own supplies of the water of life along (i might, as long as I get a taxi from the station be able to carry enough for Miss Plato as well as myself).
So name the day, Sir.
No idea... but a Sunday would probably be good. I will be driving so can pick some people up on the way of required. If it were closer to a station I would catch a train...
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
Bertie Ahern says that border controls will have to be implemented.
Random anecdote alert: Spent morning giving out leaflets and campaigning in Hull for Vote Leave. 10 or so outside St Stephens Shopping Centre. Very positive feedback (as it should be tbf). Certainly ahead in presence in Hull and East Yorkshire if that matters (it doesn't). Still battle is joined.
Definately age difference with older much more favourable and was surprised how many said had voted already (though could equally just be a way of avoiding us!)
3 BSE in Beverley looking forgotten. Felt sorry for them. Almost.
Most of Nick's sceario is plausible, but a 2017 election? I'm not sure. Certainly, if Boris has a significant honeymoon it's a no-brainer, but if the outcome of all these upheavals is more neutral (which I'd expect - the markets are unlikely to settle down quickly) then it'd make sense to wait - Corbyn's unpopularity notwithstanding. If by 2019 the Brexiteers have been proved right, the Tories will also be able to benefit from the new electoral boundaries that come into effect late in 2018.
One fly in the ointment - will any MPs quit upon Brexit?
Will any MPs quit upon Brexit, hate to sound like Malcolm, but of course not,snouts in trough etc.
Horseshit, America seems to be doing fine without free movement with anyone.
Erm... you are aware that the US is a union of 50 states with free movement and a single currency?
The UK is a union of 5 states with free movement and a single currency, so what ?
Now imagine that but with a proper federal system and scaled up over the whole of Euorpe. Nowhere else in the world could match us.
1. They are not forming a federal system let alone a proper one. They seem to be heading towards a unitary state.
2. It is in decline precisely because its one size fits all fits either few or none.
3. It will end in civil war. Except it will not be civil.
1. There isn't really any evidence for that. All the intellectual and practical foundation of the EU is on the basis of federalism. The strongest constituent nation, Germany, is itself a successful federation. I don't see any grounds for believing that it is headed towards becoming a unitary state.
2. It is not in decline. Asia is on the rise. If we could get over this navel gazing about our relations with Europe we might have more energy to think about something useful such as how we can gain from this.
3. Can you think of a plausible casus belli? Everyone deciding the system doesn't work anymore isn't one. Even the Soviet Union, which actually was a totalitarian state, broke up without immediate war.
1. The 5 presidents report involves taking more power than the federal US government in some areas.
2. Have you seen the economic chaos and unemployment across southern Europe?
3. The Greeks (et al) feeling they are being told what to do by the Germans (regardless of its truth) and the Germans feeling they are paying for lazy arses. Have you heard of Yugoslavia? Or the USA?
Everyone wanting to settle in Britain on a permanent basis who is not British by birth should be subject to the same rights and rules when deciding who will be accepted.
Including the Irish?
Yes. They are a separate country and should be subject to the same rules as any other country.
Bear in mind that personaly I would not anticipate reducing the numbers of people coming necessarily. But we would treat everyone equally and the basis would be the needs of our economy and our country.
The only proviso I would put to this is I would like to see us continue to take asylum seekers from war (perhaps in greater numbers) although as Cyclefree said the other day we should look at how long they would stay and whether permanent settlement was suitable or not.
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
Bertie Ahern says that border controls will have to be implemented.
Of course, he'll be dismissed immediately as an EU/Cameron stooge and puppet of 'Project Fear', but in my experience the Irish know their politics.
Given that EU citizens will have no problems getting across the channel (for holidays etc) without a visa I can't see why they would want to get in illegally via the Irish route. They could get in illegally by claiming they are just here for a holiday. Surely much more direct and cheaper.
But hey, it's a remain argument, lets not let logic or facts get in the way of a bit of scaremongering.
If leave were to win this I am sure DC would announce a period where he oversees the Goverment while a leadership election takes place. However the big loser would be Corbyn as his MP's would be incandescent with him leading to his overthrow
Horseshit, America seems to be doing fine without free movement with anyone.
Erm... you are aware that the US is a union of 50 states with free movement and a single currency?
The UK is a union of 5 states with free movement and a single currency, so what ?
Now imagine that but with a proper federal system and scaled up over the whole of Euorpe. Nowhere else in the world could match us.
1. They are not forming a federal system let alone a proper one. They seem to be heading towards a unitary state.
2. It is in decline precisely because its one size fits all fits either few or none.
3. It will end in civil war. Except it will not be civil.
1. There isn't really any evidence for that. All the intellectual and practical foundation of the EU is on the basis of federalism. The strongest constituent nation, Germany, is itself a successful federation. I don't see any grounds for believing that it is headed towards becoming a unitary state.
2. It is not in decline. Asia is on the rise. If we could get over this navel gazing about our relations with Europe we might have more energy to think about something useful such as how we can gain from this.
3. Can you think of a plausible casus belli? Everyone deciding the system doesn't work anymore isn't one. Even the Soviet Union, which actually was a totalitarian state, broke up without immediate war.
1. The 5 presidents report involves taking more power than the federal US government in some areas.
2. Have you seen the economic chaos and unemployment across southern Europe?
3. The Greeks (et al) feeling they are being told what to do by the Germans (regardless of its truth) and the Germans feeling they are paying for lazy arses. Have you heard of Yugoslavia? Or the USA?
1. It won't be a carbon copy of the USA. The central bodies may have more power in some areas that the US but significantly less in many others.
2. Unemployment has fallen sharply in Portugal and is falling in Spain and Greece. Southern Europe has turned the corner. There's certainly a strong argument that the Euro made the post-2008 shock much harder on many of those countries but that has just provided a greater impetus to necessary reforms to put their economics on a stronger footing.
3. I still don't see a valid parallel with Yugoslavia or the US Civil War.
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
If we leave, I imagine Ireland will shortly after.
1. They are not forming a federal system let alone a proper one. They seem to be heading towards a unitary state.
2. It is in decline precisely because its one size fits all fits either few or none.
3. It will end in civil war. Except it will not be civil.
1. There isn't really any evidence for that. All the intellectual and practical foundation of the EU is on the basis of federalism. The strongest constituent nation, Germany, is itself a successful federation. I don't see any grounds for believing that it is headed towards becoming a unitary state.
2. It is not in decline. Asia is on the rise. If we could get over this navel gazing about our relations with Europe we might have more energy to think about something useful such as how we can gain from this.
3. Can you think of a plausible casus belli? Everyone deciding the system doesn't work anymore isn't one. Even the Soviet Union, which actually was a totalitarian state, broke up without immediate war.
1. The 5 presidents report involves taking more power than the federal US government in some areas.
2. Have you seen the economic chaos and unemployment across southern Europe?
3. The Greeks (et al) feeling they are being told what to do by the Germans (regardless of its truth) and the Germans feeling they are paying for lazy arses. Have you heard of Yugoslavia? Or the USA?
1. It won't be a carbon copy of the USA. The central bodies may have more power in some areas that the US but significantly less in many others.
2. Unemployment has fallen sharply in Portugal and is falling in Spain and Greece. Southern Europe has turned the corner. There's certainly a strong argument that the Euro made the post-2008 shock much harder on many of those countries but that has just provided a greater impetus to necessary reforms to put their economics on a stronger footing.
3. I still don't see a valid parallel with Yugoslavia or the US Civil War.
1. We'll move on from that one, but it is my view it will be more of a unitary state than a federal one.
2. Unemployment has fallen because people have left as well as people getting jobs. The reality is that the debt overhang is huge especially in Italy. France appears unwilling to change at the moment either.
3. No, I can see that you can't see that. That is why history keeps repeating itself. Also note the various civil wars across the former Soviet union.
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
If we leave, I imagine Ireland will shortly after.
Along with several others I would imagine. Anyway sent in our two remain votes today and it is up to the voters now. No matter what the result nothing is going to be the same in the EU, that ship has sailed and change is coming
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
If we leave, I imagine Ireland will shortly after.
Could somebody please lock Nadine Dorries in a cupboard until after the Referendum. This woman is seriously stepping over the line. Her personal vendetta against the PM is vindictive and nasty.
There will be no putting of Dorries in a cupboard, she can't help herself. She suffers from the Liverpuddlian Permanent Victim Syndrome.
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
If we leave, I imagine Ireland will shortly after.
Along with several others I would imagine. Anyway sent in our two remain votes today and it is up to the voters now. No matter what the result nothing is going to be the same in the EU, that ship has sailed and change is coming
If I thought there was a cat in hells chance of the EU changing course I might be inclined to shift position. There isn't so I will not.
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
If we leave, I imagine Ireland will shortly after.
What currency would they use?
Good question. Back to the Irish pound on a parity with GBP?
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
Bertie Ahern says that border controls will have to be implemented.
Of course, he'll be dismissed immediately as an EU/Cameron stooge and puppet of 'Project Fear', but in my experience the Irish know their politics.
Given that EU citizens will have no problems getting across the channel (for holidays etc) without a visa I can't see why they would want to get in illegally via the Irish route. They could get in illegally by claiming they are just here for a holiday. Surely much more direct and cheaper.
But hey, it's a remain argument, lets not let logic or facts get in the way of a bit of scaremongering.
Ahern's point is that the border between Northern Ireland and Eire couldn't survive in its current state if it became the single land border between a non-EU Britain and the EU - it would be just too vulnerable to abuse. But dealing with that problem would also damage our trading relations with Eire. I think he's right. It could be a real buggers muddle, and that's without throwing all the other Northern Ireland complexities into the pot.
Could somebody please lock Nadine Dorries in a cupboard until after the Referendum. This woman is seriously stepping over the line. Her personal vendetta against the PM is vindictive and nasty.
There will be no putting of Dorries in a cupboard, she can't help herself. She suffers from the Liverpuddlian Permanent Victim Syndrome.
Random anecdote alert: Spent morning giving out leaflets and campaigning in Hull for Vote Leave. 10 or so outside St Stephens Shopping Centre. Very positive feedback (as it should be tbf). Certainly ahead in presence in Hull and East Yorkshire if that matters (it doesn't). Still battle is joined.
Definately age difference with older much more favourable and was surprised how many said had voted already (though could equally just be a way of avoiding us!)
3 BSE in Beverley looking forgotten. Felt sorry for them. Almost.
If leave were to win this I am sure DC would announce a period where he oversees the Goverment while a leadership election takes place. However the big loser would be Corbyn as his MP's would be incandescent with him leading to his overthrow
Why should his MPs be incandescent? The loss of the referendum could not reasonably be blamed on Corbyn. If his MPs overthrew him he would almost certainly be reelected. There is no easy way out for Labour.
If leave were to win this I am sure DC would announce a period where he oversees the Goverment while a leadership election takes place. However the big loser would be Corbyn as his MP's would be incandescent with him leading to his overthrow
Why should his MPs be incandescent? The loss of the referendum could not reasonably be blamed on Corbyn. If his MPs overthrew him he would almost certainly be reelected. There is no easy way out for Labour.
He has been absent without leave, excuse the pun. His MP's will overthrow him one way or another
Everyone wanting to settle in Britain on a permanent basis who is not British by birth should be subject to the same rights and rules when deciding who will be accepted.
Including the Irish?
Yes. They are a separate country and should be subject to the same rules as any other country.
Bear in mind that personaly I would not anticipate reducing the numbers of people coming necessarily. But we would treat everyone equally and the basis would be the needs of our economy and our country.
The only proviso I would put to this is I would like to see us continue to take asylum seekers from war (perhaps in greater numbers) although as Cyclefree said the other day we should look at how long they would stay and whether permanent settlement was suitable or not.
I would too (though with dual citizenship where chosen) for the Irish.
One other anomaly that needs sorting out is Commonwealth voting. It is absurd that someone can vote after being here a couple of weeks if they come from Bangladesh or Canada but not after a decade of residence if Polish. All migrants wanting the right to vote (or claim some benefits) should be required (and encouraged) to become British citizens.
Off-topic, there's a YouTube film reviewer who's being sued heavily by the estate of Stanley Kubrick for his review of Kubrick's career. He's placed a video on YouTube explaining his predicament. I don't know what the rights or wrongs of the situation are and tbh I think he crossed the line of what is and is not allowed under "fair use", but I think the threatened punishment is too large for the sin.
I'm not suggesting he's innocent, but I think he's out of his depth and the advice he is getting (FUPA, h3h3) is too specific to the US (he's a UK citizen). So if anybody here has knowledge of copyright law in the UK, can you please go to the video and suggest to him a lawyer competent to offer advocacy based on England&Wales law?
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
If we leave, I imagine Ireland will shortly after.
What currency would they use?
Good question. Back to the Irish pound on a parity with GBP?
Worked for quite a while.
Lets restart the plantation! My Cromwellian ancesters are urging me...
Horseshit, America seems to be doing fine without free movement with anyone.
Erm... you are aware that the US is a union of 50 states with free movement and a single currency?
The UK is a union of 5 states with free movement and a single currency, so what ?
Now imagine that but with a proper federal system and scaled up over the whole of Euorpe. Nowhere else in the world could match us.
1. They are not forming a federal system let alone a proper one. They seem to be heading towards a unitary state.
2. It is in decline precisely because its one size fits all fits either few or none.
3. It will end in civil war. Except it will not be civil.
1. There isn't really any evidence for that. All the intellectual and practical foundation of the EU is on the basis of federalism. The strongest constituent nation, Germany, is itself a successful federation. I don't see any grounds for believing that it is headed towards becoming a unitary state.
2. It is not in decline. Asia is on the rise. If we could get over this navel gazing about our relations with Europe we might have more energy to think about something useful such as how we can gain from this.
3. Can you think of a plausible casus belli? Everyone deciding the system doesn't work anymore isn't one. Even the Soviet Union, which actually was a totalitarian state, broke up without immediate war.
1. The 5 presidents report involves taking more power than the federal US government in some areas.
2. Have you seen the economic chaos and unemployment across southern Europe?
3. The Greeks (et al) feeling they are being told what to do by the Germans (regardless of its truth) and the Germans feeling they are paying for lazy arses. Have you heard of Yugoslavia? Or the USA?
1. It won't be a carbon copy of the USA. The central bodies may have more power in some areas that the US but significantly less in many others.
2. Unemployment has fallen sharply in Portugal and is falling in Spain and Greece. Southern Europe has turned the corner. There's certainly a strong argument that the Euro made the post-2008 shock much harder on many of those countries but that has just provided a greater impetus to necessary reforms to put their economics on a stronger footing.
3. I still don't see a valid parallel with Yugoslavia or the US Civil War.
1. I fail to see any good reason why I should wish to see the UK become part of a federal State called Europe.
Horseshit, America seems to be doing fine without free movement with anyone.
Erm... you are aware that the US is a union of 50 states with free movement and a single currency?
The UK is a union of 5 states with free movement and a single currency, so what ?
The point is, America has free movement and it has worked out fine for them.
Oh come off it. America is a sovereign nation, the people unsurprisingly move around freely inside its borders. Stop playing silly games. Which other country's citizens have free movement and rights to reside within the continental USA ?
But that's the point. Within America, people get to move within the 50 states and live and work where they wish. Everyone else has to get a visa. In the same way, EU citizens can move between EU states, and everyone else needs a visa.
It might have escaped your notice, but the EU isn't a country and hasn't got the slightest chance of becoming one.
If leave were to win this I am sure DC would announce a period where he oversees the Goverment while a leadership election takes place. However the big loser would be Corbyn as his MP's would be incandescent with him leading to his overthrow
Why should his MPs be incandescent? The loss of the referendum could not reasonably be blamed on Corbyn. If his MPs overthrew him he would almost certainly be reelected. There is no easy way out for Labour.
He has been absent without leave, excuse the pun. His MP's will overthrow him one way or another
I was musing earlier on the notion of Labour splitting into two parties - a Blairite party, perhaps called the Progressive Democrats, which would soon subsume the LDs, and a working class party, perhaps called Workers Labour led by Frank Field or similar. The interesting conclusion is that Corbyn and his ilk wouldn't fit in either - and I imagine his followers would decamp to the Greens sharpish.
3. No, I can see that you can't see that. That is why history keeps repeating itself. Also note the various civil wars across the former Soviet union.
Would you accept that the ideal of many sovereign nations all trading freely with each other doesn't eliminate all possible sources of conflict and war?
I cited the Soviet Union because it genuinely was a dystopia on a monumental scale and yet the conflicts post break-up are either ancient ethnic battles not attributable to the USSR, or due to an irredentist Russia. And if you think the EU is anything like the USSR I think you need to get some perspective.
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
If we leave, I imagine Ireland will shortly after.
What currency would they use?
Good question. Back to the Irish pound on a parity with GBP?
Worked for quite a while.
Lets restart the plantation! My Cromwellian ancesters are urging me...
Don't think that would be a good idea.....
But seriously, if there was any sort of punitive trade constraints, Ireland would have to leave the EU sharpish.
What happens if the EU one day wakes up and decides that it really has to make itself more competitive on the global stage to address the chronic unemployment and lack of growth that many of its countries have? At that point these social burdens would be gone and these Labour europhiles would be....
It won't wake up - it is too wedded to the welfare state - can you imagine the austerity and violence from the left as they try and wean everyone off it?
If leave were to win this I am sure DC would announce a period where he oversees the Goverment while a leadership election takes place. However the big loser would be Corbyn as his MP's would be incandescent with him leading to his overthrow
Why should his MPs be incandescent? The loss of the referendum could not reasonably be blamed on Corbyn. If his MPs overthrew him he would almost certainly be reelected. There is no easy way out for Labour.
Indeed in the event of Brexit the half hearted approach of Jezza may well chime with the national mood. He would be able to come round to the new Landscape faster than most. He could then campaign to have all the EU workers rights more firmly entrenched in British law, and the extra NHS funding promised by having a Labour govt post Brexit govt
Does anyone agree with me that Sky and BBC are possessed with the death of Muhammad Ali. All day both have a 'breaking news' strap line of his death even though it was announced early this morning. As I dip into the news during the day it is all I am getting, wall to wall coverage. In my opinion it is a complete fail of their role to provide news
If leave were to win this I am sure DC would announce a period where he oversees the Goverment while a leadership election takes place. However the big loser would be Corbyn as his MP's would be incandescent with him leading to his overthrow
Why should his MPs be incandescent? The loss of the referendum could not reasonably be blamed on Corbyn. If his MPs overthrew him he would almost certainly be reelected. There is no easy way out for Labour.
Indeed in the event of Brexit the half hearted approach of Jezza may well chime with the national mood. He would be able to come round to the new Landscape faster than most. He could then campaign to have all the EU workers rights more firmly entrenched in British law, and the extra NHS funding promised by having a Labour govt post Brexit govt
All the EU workers rights are in English law.
The good thing about English law is that we can change it to suit our needs, according to democratic will of the people.
1. I fail to see any good reason why I should wish to see the UK become part of a federal State called Europe.
I don't think it will ever be a State in that sense. It will be (and already is) a supranational federation from which any member state will always have the option to leave at any time.
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
If we leave, I imagine Ireland will shortly after.
That is pure wishful thinking on your part . The Irish GDP grew at 4 times the UK rate last year and they see themselves as very much part of Europe .
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
If we leave, I imagine Ireland will shortly after.
Horseshit, America seems to be doing fine without free movement with anyone.
Erm... you are aware that the US is a union of 50 states with free movement and a single currency?
The UK is a union of 5 states with free movement and a single currency, so what ?
The point is, America has free movement and it has worked out fine for them.
Oh come off it. America is a sovereign nation, the people unsurprisingly move around freely inside its borders. Stop playing silly games. Which other country's citizens have free movement and rights to reside within the continental USA ?
But that's the point. Within America, people get to move within the 50 states and live and work where they wish. Everyone else has to get a visa. In the same way, EU citizens can move between EU states, and everyone else needs a visa.
It might have escaped your notice, but the EU isn't a country and hasn't got the slightest chance of becoming one.
I never said it was, just pointing out that free movement is an endemic part of the USA
If we do leave the EU, I'll be interested in how we deal with Ireland. It's very hard to imagine reinstating border crossings in Ireland so I assume that we'll need passport controls for people coming from Belfast. one struggles to imagine Ulster saying yes to that.
Bertie Ahern says that border controls will have to be implemented.
Of course, he'll be dismissed immediately as an EU/Cameron stooge and puppet of 'Project Fear', but in my experience the Irish know their politics.
Given that EU citizens will have no problems getting across the channel (for holidays etc) without a visa I can't see why they would want to get in illegally via the Irish route. They could get in illegally by claiming they are just here for a holiday. Surely much more direct and cheaper.
But hey, it's a remain argument, lets not let logic or facts get in the way of a bit of scaremongering.
Ahern's point is that the border between Northern Ireland and Eire couldn't survive in its current state if it became the single land border between a non-EU Britain and the EU - it would be just too vulnerable to abuse. But dealing with that problem would also damage our trading relations with Eire. I think he's right. It could be a real buggers muddle, and that's without throwing all the other Northern Ireland complexities into the pot.
I think it is being talked about because no one appears to have noticed that people already do travel across to the mainland UK without going via Ireland claiming to be on holiday.
The only issue across the Irish border will be what will the trade relationship be. There will be no real issue with migration of people that isn't already the case with people getting straight across claiming to ge holiday makers.
Comments
Mr. Llama, if you want to heap opprobrium on the sons of Henry II no man deserves it less than Richard.
If that is the best you can come up with it is no surprise that Remain are sliding in the polls.
Not only is that frankly disgusting, immoral, outrageous and something I want no part of, it is also short sighted, ridiculous and self harming.
I once heard that Dennis Healey described people in favour of the EEC as imperialists with an inferiority complex. There is much I disagree with Healey on but in that he was spot on.
They restrict freedom of movement to the people in their union of states which has one president, one currency, one language, one army, a federal tax system etc.
The US is just like the UK. It is not the same as the EU.
The EU is not a single nation, though it would be great if REMAIN tried to make the case for it because Britons don't want it.
Djoko's ability to get into the heads of his top opponents and stop them playing their best is what makes him so difficult to beat.
What was he thinking?
"We need to get hip, we need to get modern. Let's put the pledges on a tablet"
"Great idea, I'm on it"
Some time later...
"Er? WTF? I meant as in like an iPad?"
The onslaught is going to be something to behold.
I see Faisal is reviewing the papers on Marr tomorrow. What an egotistical bunch these political commentators are. He needs to be careful.
2. It is in decline precisely because its one size fits all fits either few or none.
3. It will end in civil war. Except it will not be civil.
Also worth noting that a short time before Rorke's Drift the Zulus massacred a much larger British army.
A far better tip was to join the Cruising Association. They have regular meets where owners try to recruit crew, and if a Competent Crew with a bit of experience then you can go sailing pretty much whenever you choose. I sailed the Lovely North Coast of Spain that way last year on a Moody 44. It cost me £120 in flights and £40 for the food kitty for a week.
I agree on the holiday home, unless retired. Prior to that every holiday is ruined by having to do or to arrange repairs.
http://www.strongerin.co.uk/former_labour_leaders_unite_to_make_the_progressive_case_for_british_membership_of_the_eu#yq7zm54H90QzFJET.97
For LEAVE!
He claims not to remember anything more of the night until he arrived at his house injured and without his personal possessions, including confidential church papers.
Witnesses, however, appear to have filled in the blanks.
They say he ended up in Crucifix Lane, a largely deserted street next to railway arches near his cathedral, at 9.30pm where he clambered into a stranger's Mercedes and started throwing toys on to the road.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1536544/Curious-incident-in-the-night-leaves-Bishop-of-Southwark-with-black-eye-and-sore-head.html
They are not pontificating on future events (scaremongering), they are highlighting the documented record of those making the Brexit claims.
Nut nobody is listening
If our economy dips, so does theirs. If tariffs go on, they get disproportionately hit.
That is the policy you are supporting and promoting and it is shameful.
How much will they mention his insults for opponents especially Joe Frazier?
"We remember Ali calling Frazier “ugly,” an “Uncle Tom” and, especially, a “gorilla.” And even those of us too young to have stayed up to learn the result of a 15-round prizefight in the 1970s recall how black people laughed and laughed at this."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/in-trilogy-with-muhammad-ali-the-words-hurt-joe-frazier-most/2011/11/08/gIQAgfUc3M_story.html
What exactly then do you consider to be "progressive" about the UK's current approach to migration within the EU, the continuation of which you are so clearly committed to?
1. Promotion of continued low pay and widening wage inequality in the UK workforce through permitting uncontrolled in-migration of people willing to work for next to nothing from countries with a GDP/head perhaps one-fifth of that of the UK, in order to prevent any labour shortages that would require employers to address low pay? (If you do, then Sir Stuart Rose agrees with you.)
2. As house prices escalate, widening inequality in wealth depending on whether you own a home or not, thanks to this unprecedented increase in demand? (Naturally, you're fully signed up to George Osborne's agenda if you like the idea of rapid house price inflation to the benefit of the haves).
3. The desperate attempts of the Government to tighten up and restrict entry of close relatives of existing UK citizens from Commonwealth countries to which the UK has historic ties, in a vain attempt to keep a lid on overall totals, something it would not feel under pressure to do if migration from Eastern Europe were not out of its control? And do you consider people who oppose this (Eastern European) "whites first" policy to be racists?
4. A lamentable lack of UK commitment to assist genuine refugees from Syria and elsewhere, in stark contrast to Canada, a country in control of its own borders and which can thus determine its priorities, with Canada admitting over the past few months Syrian refugees at 25 times the rate of a UK that prioritises EU economic migrants instead?
5. The UK government seeking to avoid any systematic programme of training up young people here (something that might anyway well fall foul of EU state aid rules if there was any significant government spending involved) and instead importing overseas labour to fill those key skills gaps, often from third world countries who can ill afford to lose such skilled people?
6. The indirect but clear catalytic effect that EU migration policy has provided to the parties of the far right across the EU, largely at the expense of declining social democratic parties? Do you think that this makes Europe a safer place?
A great header, and good to concentrate on the political rather than social/economic issues post Brexit.
I struggle to read the whole thread having been back at work all day, but has the impact of Brexit on the Labour party been discussed? I think Corbyn would reconcile himself fairly easily to it, though some in the party less so. I am not entirely convinced that Boris will inherit the Tory crown, but if as you suppose happens and an early election takes place, what happens if the Tories lose?
Most likely it would to be NOC, but conceivably a SNP/LD/Lab coalition in favour of Bremain to negotiate Brexit. What fun that would be!
It only makes sense (to me) as an attempt to cash in on a Leave win. But his visit & backing is quite likely to sway voters to Remain.
Is he banking on Americans not noticing if the side he backs, loses?
Everyone wanting to settle in Britain on a permanent basis who is not British by birth should be subject to the same rights and rules when deciding who will be accepted.
I hear leavers stall had a less positive reception in Shoreham but very positive in other parts of Sussex.
So name the day, Sir.
2. It is not in decline. Asia is on the rise. If we could get over this navel gazing about our relations with Europe we might have more energy to think about something useful such as how we can gain from this.
3. Can you think of a plausible casus belli? Everyone deciding the system doesn't work anymore isn't one. Even the Soviet Union, which actually was a totalitarian state, broke up without immediate war.
I fail to see what the problem is here. If the people of Northern Ireland change their view on being part of a united Ireland surely that is a good thing? Self determination and all that stuff.
"When the last trump sounds and I'm called to join God's army the man I would most want to have fightin at my side is "Smokin" Joe Fraser"
MOHAMMAD ALI
So let it be
One fly in the ointment - will any MPs quit upon Brexit?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/04/bertie-ahern-uk-reimpose-irish-border-after-brexit-eu-northern-ireland
Of course, he'll be dismissed immediately as an EU/Cameron stooge and puppet of 'Project Fear', but in my experience the Irish know their politics.
Spent morning giving out leaflets and campaigning in Hull for Vote Leave. 10 or so outside St Stephens Shopping Centre. Very positive feedback (as it should be tbf). Certainly ahead in presence in Hull and East Yorkshire if that matters (it doesn't). Still battle is joined.
Definately age difference with older much more favourable and was surprised how many said had voted already (though could equally just be a way of avoiding us!)
3 BSE in Beverley looking forgotten. Felt sorry for them. Almost.
2. Have you seen the economic chaos and unemployment across southern Europe?
3. The Greeks (et al) feeling they are being told what to do by the Germans (regardless of its truth) and the Germans feeling they are paying for lazy arses. Have you heard of Yugoslavia? Or the USA?
Bear in mind that personaly I would not anticipate reducing the numbers of people coming necessarily. But we would treat everyone equally and the basis would be the needs of our economy and our country.
The only proviso I would put to this is I would like to see us continue to take asylum seekers from war (perhaps in greater numbers) although as Cyclefree said the other day we should look at how long they would stay and whether permanent settlement was suitable or not.
But hey, it's a remain argument, lets not let logic or facts get in the way of a bit of scaremongering.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/04/sadiq-khan-boris-johnson-eu-referendum-debate-wembley-arena
2. Unemployment has fallen sharply in Portugal and is falling in Spain and Greece. Southern Europe has turned the corner. There's certainly a strong argument that the Euro made the post-2008 shock much harder on many of those countries but that has just provided a greater impetus to necessary reforms to put their economics on a stronger footing.
3. I still don't see a valid parallel with Yugoslavia or the US Civil War.
2. Unemployment has fallen because people have left as well as people getting jobs. The reality is that the debt overhang is huge especially in Italy. France appears unwilling to change at the moment either.
3. No, I can see that you can't see that. That is why history keeps repeating itself. Also note the various civil wars across the former Soviet union.
Worked for quite a while.
One other anomaly that needs sorting out is Commonwealth voting. It is absurd that someone can vote after being here a couple of weeks if they come from Bangladesh or Canada but not after a decade of residence if Polish. All migrants wanting the right to vote (or claim some benefits) should be required (and encouraged) to become British citizens.
I'm not suggesting he's innocent, but I think he's out of his depth and the advice he is getting (FUPA, h3h3) is too specific to the US (he's a UK citizen). So if anybody here has knowledge of copyright law in the UK, can you please go to the video and suggest to him a lawyer competent to offer advocacy based on England&Wales law?
I cited the Soviet Union because it genuinely was a dystopia on a monumental scale and yet the conflicts post break-up are either ancient ethnic battles not attributable to the USSR, or due to an irredentist Russia. And if you think the EU is anything like the USSR I think you need to get some perspective.
But seriously, if there was any sort of punitive trade constraints, Ireland would have to leave the EU sharpish.
The good thing about English law is that we can change it to suit our needs, according to democratic will of the people.
The only issue across the Irish border will be what will the trade relationship be. There will be no real issue with migration of people that isn't already the case with people getting straight across claiming to ge holiday makers.
In short, it isn't a problem.