You know things must be getting desperate for remain when they have to wheel out windbag kinnock to try and reach labour voters. The man who lost an election twice
After pleading to pensioners in SAGA magazine and threaten WW3, we'll never host the Olympics or WCup again...I'm not sure what's left for Remain.
Santa will be barred from visiting the UK on Xmas eve?
Dan Hodges @DPJHodges 21m21 minutes ago Anyone know why all the bookies have suddenly started shifting odds back to Remain? Is there a new poll coming out?
You know things must be getting desperate for remain when they have to wheel out windbag kinnock to try and reach labour voters. The man who lost an election twice
After pleading to pensioners in SAGA magazine and threaten WW3, we'll never host the Olympics or WCup again...I'm not sure what's left for Remain.
Santa will be barred from visiting the UK on Xmas eve?
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
Dan Hodges @DPJHodges 21m21 minutes ago Anyone know why all the bookies have suddenly started shifting odds back to Remain? Is there a new poll coming out?
Isn't that merely a function of money being placed? There is a poll coming out, I read below. Not sure if it will be before or after the interviews, which most people went favourably for Leave.
and now Ladbrokes saying more money going on Leave than Remain, one wonders whether we have hit CROSSOVER, with the undecideds falling away in Leave's favour , and Leave on the incline overall , Remain on the decline, if this can be sustained over the next three weeks , we could be heading for a narrow Leave win. However, I'm sure a "Vow" will be produced to twist arms before the big vote.
The VOW was produce 13 weeks ago or so - in the Form of Cameron saying that if he didn't get a good negotiation result from the EU he would recommend we leave.
So maybe we should call it a BROKEN VOW.
Nothing Cameron says now can help Remain. It has gone beyond his control and is now in the lap of the gods.
I'm beginning to think its worse than that for Cameron,not only is it out of his control, his contributions are now perceived as negative. He has to face Farage with immigration the red hot topic, he's toast.
Your prognostications seem generally sound Nick, except I don't think Boris could initiate a 2017 General Election as blithely as you think. More likely he will kick off the negotiations and then govern as normal with them going on in the background for many years. I suspect we'll end up with some kind of quasi-EU-membership arrangement barely distinguishable from what we have now, but by then everyone will have forgotten about June 2016 so it won't matter.
We'll have nearly 4 years of negotiation - and you can be sure UKIP will keep the pressure on if it appears that the UK is giving up too much.
UKIP will be utterly irrelevant by then, possibly even non-existent. But they're only equipped to agitate about the raw, simple stuff anyway: In or Out; Yes or No; Good or Evil. Intervening in the fussy, drawn-out and laborious process of international trade diplomacy would be beyond their functionality. They don't even know what they want to replace EU membership with now. How can they possibly stick their oar in post-Brexit?
Mr. Dawning, You wouldn't consider the idea that for as long as I have been on here (2007) I have been reading posts that UKIP are irrelevant? Yet we seem to having a referendum this month, why do you think that is?
Maybe I am just getting old and senile (Herself thinks so) but I am beginning to see the truth in the old idea that the influence of power is actually trumped by the power of influence.
Mr Llama, UKIP were united - powerfully so - by a single aim: annulling Britain's membership of the EU. There's no unity whatsoever about what happens next. We've everything from turning Britain into the free-trade capital of the planet, with all the immigration and hullabaloo that would entail, to raising the drawbridge and returning to a time when the AA saluted. UKIP will soon be a party without a purpose.
Why does free trade require mass migration?
Because global non-isolationist companies, in a global non-isolationist nation will seek the best employees globally.
Horseshit, America seems to be doing fine without free movement with anyone.
You know things must be getting desperate for remain when they have to wheel out windbag kinnock to try and reach labour voters. The man who lost an election twice
After pleading to pensioners in SAGA magazine and threaten WW3, we'll never host the Olympics or WCup again...I'm not sure what's left for Remain.
Santa will be barred from visiting the UK on Xmas eve?
I've been thinking about an interim position on tariffs before trade deals are in place. Could we adopt a position to put in place mirror tariffs by default - I.e. We set tariffs at the same rate others set on us. If they set 0%, we set 0%. If they go punitive, so do we. The incentive therefore is for everyone to go low. Thoughts?
The WTO most favoured nation tariffs on our exports would be £4.6 billion, and theres would be around £8.6 billion.
In that sense our membership of the EU is a sort of buy one, pay for two deal... (We pay twice that in net contributions)
So that could makes sense.
I think the biggest potential impact on economic growth other than the issues discussed ad nauseum about trade deals is deregulation. By shedding the most ludicrous or Europe-centric of the EC directives, we would both reduce administrative burden on companies, and enable them to compete more effectively in some sectors in emerging markets where the cost of compliance with EC directives makes our products uncompetitive.
Some could be got rid of which would help to revive some businesses.
As an Out-er, I'm always intrigued by this question: what could be removed?
I would welcome the end of VAT-mess. And re-opting out of the Social Chapter. But what else is there? I'm a small business person many times over (CrowdScores, PythonAnywhere, THS Partners, Genius Sports Group), and I must confess that - other than in the case of VAT-mess - I simply haven't run up against EU regulations in any of my businesses*.
* Requirements for data to reside in the EU may change that down the line.
Clinical trials directive is one, then the one that says modern art can't be sold in the EU without a levy to the artist which means they are sold offshore. Many of the regulations are daft.
Robert - were all your start ups in the service sectors? If so, I think you'd have had a different experience if you'd been manufacturing or trading in goods.
You know things must be getting desperate for remain when they have to wheel out windbag kinnock to try and reach labour voters. The man who lost an election twice
After pleading to pensioners in SAGA magazine and threaten WW3, we'll never host the Olympics or WCup again...I'm not sure what's left for Remain.
Santa will be barred from visiting the UK on Xmas eve?
Easy. Say that Brexit will lead to an outbreak of bestiality and then Santa's reindeer will refuse to visit the UK.
You know things must be getting desperate for remain when they have to wheel out windbag kinnock to try and reach labour voters. The man who lost an election twice
After pleading to pensioners in SAGA magazine and threaten WW3, we'll never host the Olympics or WCup again...I'm not sure what's left for Remain.
Santa will be barred from visiting the UK on Xmas eve?
Won't get enough points on the new visa scheme.
As Labour MP Pat Glass said - too white, male and old to listen to?
Crikey, that would mean companies working in the UK would actually have to invest in training people. They won't like that.
A bit of Bennery which I quite liked and got serious consideration under Blair before rejection was a compulsory training levy, the proceeds of which would be available to any company (or college) operating an approved training scheme, which they could open to outside trainees. So someone like Honda could make a profit from having a good engineering training scheme, while XYZ Engineering, which coudn't be bothered to give their staff any additional training could simply pay the levy and have Honda train them instead.
Lots of practical difficulties (which is why Blair rejected it, apart from his wariness of the state interfering) - need for approval, availability of local schemes, etc. But the idea that you have to give your staff training but can choose whether to do it yourself seemed essentially sound, as opposed to the current situation where companies who don't train poach staff from companies that do.
Quite. Something could be done one way or another though. Importing people to leave people on lower incomes or the dole just doesn't make sense to me.
I thought politicians were supposed to look after the electorate they had.
That's where the racism comes in.
I see. So looking after the electorate you have is racist?
Glad we've cleared that up.
Half the electorate are racist, apparently. Including LD and Labour voters. Isn't it simply awful - who knew?
Quite. And people wonder why people don't vote. Why would you if looking after the welfare of the voter is racist?
Wow! Thanks to Innocenta Broad, I've learned today that the old maxim "Charity starts at home" is racist. Have to stop teaching it to the kids.
To the left, particularly Libdems it is.
They regard the whole concept of giving precedence to your own nation familiy or tribe/community as inherently discriminating.
"Number 10 is reported to be concerned about the balance of the audience at the Wembley event, which will be moderated by Question Time’s David Dimbleby, the Today programme’s Mishal Husain and Newsnight presenter Emily Maitlis. "
Sign of weakness there - mind you at least they have the BBC to ensure the audience is evenly balanced - 99.9% Remain, 0.1% undecided but leaning Remain.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
"Number 10 is reported to be concerned about the balance of the audience at the Wembley event, which will be moderated by Question Time’s David Dimbleby, the Today programme’s Mishal Husain and Newsnight presenter Emily Maitlis. "
Sign of weakness there - mind you at least they have the BBC to ensure the audience is evenly balanced - 99.9% Remain, 0.1% undecided but leaning Remain.
If it's like the EU debate I attended earlier this week, then things could get pretty ugly. Lots of yelling of 'lies', and other boorish behaviour from Leavers.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
"Number 10 is reported to be concerned about the balance of the audience at the Wembley event, which will be moderated by Question Time’s David Dimbleby, the Today programme’s Mishal Husain and Newsnight presenter Emily Maitlis. "
Sign of weakness there - mind you at least they have the BBC to ensure the audience is evenly balanced - 99.9% Remain, 0.1% undecided but leaning Remain.
Any guesses as to where Dimbleby's, Husain's and Maitlis' sympathies might lie ?
FPT: An astonishing level of ignorance on here about our immigration system. Non-EU migrants have already been subject to a points based system and levies for using the NHS for the past 5 years.
so lets put e.u migrants under the same system and get rid of our racist immigration system we have now.
Quite. How Remainers can defend this perplexes me. Bring in the smart, ambitious and articulate from wherever - not just 27 others who are almost all Caucasian. It's a fatal flaw in their argument.
The numbers are such that to get immigration down to the 10s of thousands you are going to have to exclude many smart ambitious people from everywhere and completely stop any immigration for any other reasons including marriage , close relatives , asylum etc etc .
Not being racist and successfully getting immigration down to the 10s of thousands are two separate points.
Personally I couldn't care less about getting immigration down to the 10s of thousands (and have said so repeatedly). I do not like racism. What about you? Do you care about getting immigration down? Do you support having a racist policy?
No and No
So you do not oppose removing our current racist policy then?
They are only racist to someone with a warped mind such as you .
Discrimination isn't the slightest bit racist in your eyes?
Several years ago, I tried to organise a Sussex PB dinner - Mr Senior made loads of excuses why he wasn't available no matter what date I suggested. I came to the conclusion that he considered anyone other than LDs were unworthy and too dirty to associate with.
I'm in Sussex. (Mid)
Me too, Mr. White, though in Arundel and South Downs Constituency.
Perhaps we should try again for a Sussex PB meet, though because of my eyes it would have to be a lunch rather than a dinner and somewhere I can get to by public transport.
What say you, Miss Plato, Square Root, Mark Senior, Richard Nabavi, Jonathan, and any other Sussex PBers whose names I have, for the moment, forgotten? Lunch in, say, Brighton? We could go to Days and be cheap, cheerful and fattening or perhaps go up market and invite a guest speaker. I do know of a nice pub a stone's throw from the Station that does OK food and first class beer. Open to ideas.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
Dan Hodges @DPJHodges 21m21 minutes ago Anyone know why all the bookies have suddenly started shifting odds back to Remain? Is there a new poll coming out?
You can sense the Remainers are getting twitchy. Desperate for any bit of good news. As Isam would say, longing for a throw in to cheer.
You know things must be getting desperate for remain when they have to wheel out windbag kinnock to try and reach labour voters. The man who lost an election twice
After pleading to pensioners in SAGA magazine and threaten WW3, we'll never host the Olympics or WCup again...I'm not sure what's left for Remain.
Santa will be barred from visiting the UK on Xmas eve?
They regard the whole concept of giving precedence to your own nation familiy or tribe/community as inherently discriminating.
Is a curious point of view, since the issue at stake is nationality which is increasingly dissimilar to race.
Politicians in my view should be representing the interests of those that elected them, which includes inter alia British Asians, British Africans, British Americans, British Indians, British Pakistanis, British Inuit, and anyone that has, or reasonable can expect to form part of the franchise, it most emphatically has nothing to do with race much as our lefty friends and increasingly desparate remainers would like to suggest otherwise.
FPT: An astonishing level of ignorance on here about our immigration system. Non-EU migrants have already been subject to a points based system and levies for using the NHS for the past 5 years.
so lets put e.u migrants under the same system and get rid of our racist immigration system we have now.
Quite. How Remainers can defend this perplexes me. Bring in the smart, ambitious and articulate from wherever - not just 27 others who are almost all Caucasian. It's a fatal flaw in their argument.
The numbers are such that to get immigration down to the 10s of thousands you are going to have to exclude many smart ambitious people from everywhere and completely stop any immigration for any other reasons including marriage , close relatives , asylum etc etc .
Not being racist and successfully getting immigration down to the 10s of thousands are two separate points.
Personally I couldn't care less about getting immigration down to the 10s of thousands (and have said so repeatedly). I do not like racism. What about you? Do you care about getting immigration down? Do you support having a racist policy?
No and No
So you do not oppose removing our current racist policy then?
They are only racist to someone with a warped mind such as you .
Discrimination isn't the slightest bit racist in your eyes?
snip
I'm in Sussex. (Mid)
Me too, Mr. White, though in Arundel and South Downs Constituency.
Perhaps we should try again for a Sussex PB meet, though because of my eyes it would have to be a lunch rather than a dinner and somewhere I can get to by public transport.
What say you, Miss Plato, Square Root, Mark Senior, Richard Nabavi, Jonathan, and any other Sussex PBers whose names I have, for the moment, forgotten? Lunch in, say, Brighton? We could go to Days and be cheap, cheerful and fattening or perhaps go up market and invite a guest speaker. I do know of a nice pub a stone's throw from the Station that does OK food and first class beer. Open to ideas.
You know things must be getting desperate for remain when they have to wheel out windbag kinnock to try and reach labour voters. The man who lost an election twice
After pleading to pensioners in SAGA magazine and threaten WW3, we'll never host the Olympics or WCup again...I'm not sure what's left for Remain.
Santa will be barred from visiting the UK on Xmas eve?
Easy. Say that Brexit will lead to an outbreak of bestiality and then Santa's reindeer will refuse to visit the UK.
Brexit will turn the UK into a scene like the Thriller video, but without the dancing.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
FPT: An astonishing level of ignorance on here about our immigration system. Non-EU migrants have already been subject to a points based system and levies for using the NHS for the past 5 years.
so lets put e.u migrants under the same system and get rid of our racist immigration system we have now.
Quite. How Remainers can defend this perplexes me. Bring in the smart, ambitious and articulate from wherever - not just 27 others who are almost all Caucasian. It's a fatal flaw in their argument.
The numbers are such that to get immigration down to the 10s of thousands you are going to have to exclude many smart ambitious people from everywhere and completely stop any immigration for any other reasons including marriage , close relatives , asylum etc etc .
Not being racist and successfully getting immigration down to the 10s of thousands are two separate points.
Personally I couldn't care less about getting immigration down to the 10s of thousands (and have said so repeatedly). I do not like racism. What about you? Do you care about getting immigration down? Do you support having a racist policy?
No and No
So you do not oppose removing our current racist policy then?
They are only racist to someone with a warped mind such as you .
Discrimination isn't the slightest bit racist in your eyes?
Discrimination may be caused by a number of factors but race does not have to be one of them .
So why are we granting free movement to all the impoverished Eastern European Caucasian Christian nations but not to Turkey or similar?
Because the former are in the EU and Turkey is not .
That is a truism. It is a statement of fact it is not a reason why we should discriminate this way.
This is false naïveté. Leavers are always banging on about how federalism and ever closer union and then feign ignorance about the practical manifestations.
You know things must be getting desperate for remain when they have to wheel out windbag kinnock to try and reach labour voters. The man who lost an election twice
After pleading to pensioners in SAGA magazine and threaten WW3, we'll never host the Olympics or WCup again...I'm not sure what's left for Remain.
Santa will be barred from visiting the UK on Xmas eve?
Easy. Say that Brexit will lead to an outbreak of bestiality and then Santa's reindeer will refuse to visit the UK.
Brexit will turn the UK into a scene like the Thriller video, but without the dancing.
I've bought extra pillow cases/sheets, and cutting eyeholes right now. Timber crosses are scheduled for DIY tomorow.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
No it isn't about promoting self interest. It is about having a level playing field for all people. Something that doesn't exist under the racist, protectionist system that you support.
Mr. Tyson, well, I don't consider myself to be mean-spirited or selfish.
It's entirely possible for reasonable men to be presented with the same evidence and reach differing conclusions without one side being necessarily immoral.
You know things must be getting desperate for remain when they have to wheel out windbag kinnock to try and reach labour voters. The man who lost an election twice
After pleading to pensioners in SAGA magazine and threaten WW3, we'll never host the Olympics or WCup again...I'm not sure what's left for Remain.
Santa will be barred from visiting the UK on Xmas eve?
Won't get enough points Ison the new visa scheme.
Isn't Santa Turkish?
St George was Syrian
Probably. The fact he is still patron Saint of England is, in my view, a disgrace. He was foisted to us by the Norman clique that held sway after the conquest.
We should go back to St Edmund, a proper English saint and whilst about it we could dump the white duster of his flag and re-introduce England's proper flag - the White Dragon.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
No it isn't about promoting self interest. It is about having a level playing field for all people. Something that doesn't exist under the racist, protectionist system that you support.
Looking at the map they are coordinating to cut off the remaining route to the Turkish border. If they can do that, that will be a big win.
A win for whom and a loss for whom?
Well hopefully it will stop ISIS supporters being able to freely move back and forth between turkey & Syria, which has to be a good thing. Obviously it is alien vs predator when it comes to the outcome of the civil war, whoever wins nobody wins.
Mr. Llama, point of order: it was Edward III who made the shift to George at the expense of Edmund (and someone else whose name escapes me). It's debatable whether Edward III could be considered Norman, I think.
Miss Plato, as Mr. Tyson pointed out, I'm bad, I'm bad, I know it, I'm bad
Thought provoking article. Another factor surely is an early election in 2017 will be dire for Labour in terms of finances. Or have things improved of late?
The mountain of debt has been largely paid off and obviously membership income is way up, but the big individual donors are thinner on the ground than before. I don't think it'd be a decisive factor.
On the outcome if Remain win, my personal view is that Cameron will still call it a day - I can't see there's much in it for him but grief if he hangs around for another year or two. But it opens the door for a Remain candidate to succeed him, and May has to be the big favourite in that case - stable, reliable and avoiding burning too many boats with Leavers. I would expect her to make a friendly gesture to Leavers, perhaps also making Gove Chancellor and giving Osborne the Foreign Office. At that point, attention might switch to Labour's dilemmas, with an awkward conference debate on Trident on top of the general unresolved issues.
The resolution of the issue into "no change" will produce a stock market and sterling bounce, and I'd expect things to calm down for a while, but the structural problems of the economy will still be there (and helped by a stronger pound), and I'd think that the usual mid-term blues would set in after a year or so. But it's much easier to see a relatively smooth path for the Government for a while. Unhappy Leavers have been focusing their fire on Cameron personally, and when he goes I think quite a bit of the bitterness will dissipate, especially if Remain wins by a non-trivial margin.
Dan Hodges @DPJHodges 21m21 minutes ago Anyone know why all the bookies have suddenly started shifting odds back to Remain? Is there a new poll coming out?
You can sense the Remainers are getting twitchy. Desperate for any bit of good news. As Isam would say, longing for a throw in to cheer.
They should be getting twitchy. It feels very much like Leave are on their way to surprise (to the media and commentators) win to me.
Richard- on the Brexit side, you have people like Donald Trump, Putin, Farage, the EDL, the BNP, hard left communists, the countryside alliance, Liam Fox, Bill Cash, the Daily Mail, Rupert Murdoch....and on the other Obama, the Pope, DC, Hilary Benn, Merkel, Ken Clarke etc....
If you were watching Brexit the movie...the Brexit group would hardly come across as the good guys.
The worst part of the Brexit campaign is that they disingenuously take up populist causes- more funding to the NHS, workers rights etc....when actually when you look at the ragtag mishaps that make up Brexit- the majority of them would gladly privatise the NHS, and tear up any sense of workers rights.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
No it isn't about promoting self interest. It is about having a level playing field for all people. Something that doesn't exist under the racist, protectionist system that you support.
FPT: An astonishing level of ignorance on here about our immigration system. Non-EU migrants have already been subject to a points based system and levies for using the NHS for the past 5 years.
so lets put e.u migrants under the same system and get rid of our racist immigration system we have now.
Quite. How Remainers can defend this perplexes me. Bring in the smart, ambitious and articulate from wherever - not just 27 others who are almost all Caucasian. It's a fatal flaw in their argument.
The numbers are such that to get immigration down to the 10s of thousands you are going to have to exclude many smart ambitious people from everywhere and completely stop any immigration for any other reasons including marriage , close relatives , asylum etc etc .
Not being racist and successfully getting immigration down to the 10s of thousands are two separate points.
Personally I couldn't care less about getting immigration down to the 10s of thousands (and have said so repeatedly). I do not like racism. What about you? Do you care about getting immigration down? Do you support having a racist policy?
No and No
So you do not oppose removing our current racist policy then?
They are only racist to someone with a warped mind such as you .
Discrimination isn't the slightest bit racist in your eyes?
Several years ago, I tried to organise a Sussex PB dinner - Mr Senior made loads of excuses why he wasn't available no matter what date I suggested. I came to the conclusion that he considered anyone other than LDs were unworthy and too dirty to associate with.
That's a little unfair - I feel sure Mark Senior would be happy to associate with Labourites although definitely not with Tories against whom he's always most hostile.
actually when you look at the ragtag mishaps that make up Brexit- the majority of them would gladly privatise the NHS, and tear up any sense of workers rights.
The more sensible Labour MPs have been making these points. Luckily for Brexit nobody is listening to them.
I heard last week that there were serious voices in favour of Hilary Benn. I know this doesn't cut much ice with Labour members but if he's popular with his own MP's and they can see a chance winning even at their most suicidal it must be tempting.
And if it is Boris in 2017 and he's forced into an election Benn would be in an ideal position to win. Particularly if things go as badly as expected after Brexit
Boris would beat Benn especially as the electorate themselves voted for Brexit
Wouldn't that rather depend on how Brexit is working out in practice?.
The high point for Leave will be the day it wins the ref (if it does) - down hill all the way after that.
The fickle electorate will rapidly switch from blaming all their woes on the EU (as do they now orchestrated by the right wing press) to blaming all their woes on Brexit.
Dan Hodges @DPJHodges 21m21 minutes ago Anyone know why all the bookies have suddenly started shifting odds back to Remain? Is there a new poll coming out?
You can sense the Remainers are getting twitchy. Desperate for any bit of good news. As Isam would say, longing for a throw in to cheer.
They should be getting twitchy. It feels very much like Leave are on their way to surprise (to the media and commentators) win to me.
Yes, I fear you're right. I can see it now: the suited and hunched figure of David Cameron, filmed from a distance, as he stalks into Number 10 for the emergency cabinet meeting; Nigel Farage with pint in hand, face glistening with tears: 'This is, without doubt, the happiest day of my life'. It's going to happen.
Dan Hodges @DPJHodges 21m21 minutes ago Anyone know why all the bookies have suddenly started shifting odds back to Remain? Is there a new poll coming out?
You can sense the Remainers are getting twitchy. Desperate for any bit of good news. As Isam would say, longing for a throw in to cheer.
They should be getting twitchy. It feels very much like Leave are on their way to surprise (to the media and commentators) win to me.
FPT: An astonishing level of ignorance on here about our immigration system. Non-EU migrants have already been subject to a points based system and levies for using the NHS for the past 5 years.
so lets put e.u migrants under the same system and get rid of our racist immigration system we have now.
Quite. How Remainers can defend this perplexes me. Bring in the smart, ambitious and articulate from wherever - not just 27 others who are almost all Caucasian. It's a fatal flaw in their argument.
The numbers are such that to get immigration down to the 10s of thousands you are going to have to exclude many smart ambitious people from everywhere and completely stop any immigration for any other reasons including marriage , close relatives , asylum etc etc .
Not being racist and successfully getting immigration down to the 10s of thousands are two separate points.
Personally I couldn't care less about getting immigration down to the 10s of thousands (and have said so repeatedly). I do not like racism. What about you? Do you care about getting immigration down? Do you support having a racist policy?
No and No
So you do not oppose removing our current racist policy then?
They are only racist to someone with a warped mind such as you .
Discrimination isn't the slightest bit racist in your eyes?
Several years ago, I tried to organise a Sussex PB dinner - Mr Senior made loads of excuses why he wasn't available no matter what date I suggested. I came to the conclusion that he considered anyone other than LDs were unworthy and too dirty to associate with.
That's a little unfair - I feel sure Mark Senior would be happy to associate with Labourites although definitely not with Tories against whom he's always most hostile.
FPT: An astonishing level of ignorance on here about our immigration system. Non-EU migrants have already been subject to a points based system and levies for using the NHS for the past 5 years.
so lets put e.u migrants under the same system and get rid of our racist immigration system we have now.
Quite. How Remainers can defend this perplexes me. Bring in the smart, ambitious and articulate from wherever - not just 27 others who are almost all Caucasian. It's a fatal flaw in their argument.
The numbers are such that to get immigration down to the 10s of thousands you are going to have to exclude many smart ambitious people from everywhere and completely stop any immigration for any other reasons including marriage , close relatives , asylum etc etc .
Not being racist and successfully getting immigration down to the 10s of thousands are two separate points.
Personally I couldn't care less about getting immigration down to the 10s of thousands (and have said so repeatedly). I do not like racism. What about you? Do you care about getting immigration down? Do you support having a racist policy?
No and No
So you do not oppose removing our current racist policy then?
They are only racist to someone with a warped mind such as you .
Discrimination isn't the slightest bit racist in your eyes?
Several years ago, I tried to organise a Sussex PB dinner - Mr Senior made loads of excuses why he wasn't available no matter what date I suggested. I came to the conclusion that he considered anyone other than LDs were unworthy and too dirty to associate with.
That's a little unfair - I feel sure Mark Senior would be happy to associate with Labourites although definitely not with Tories against whom he's always most hostile.
Mr. Llama, point of order: it was Edward III who made the shift to George at the expense of Edmund (and someone else whose name escapes me). It's debatable whether Edward III could be considered Norman, I think.
Miss Plato, as Mr. Tyson pointed out, I'm bad, I'm bad, I know it, I'm bad
Well yes, OK , Mr. Dancer, I grant you that, grudgingly. Edward III was the first of what I would regard as the English Kings. However, that bastard Richard I was the chap who introduced St. George to this country and brought in his wretched emblem and he was in no way or shape English - didn't speak the language, spent no more than six months here in his, thankfully, short life and tried to sell London. The fact that there is a statue of him outside the Houses of Parliament, never ceases to amaze me. Victorian sentimentality has a lot to answer for in this country.
Wow! Thanks to Innocenta Broad, I've learned today that the old maxim "Charity starts at home" is racist. Have to stop teaching it to the kids.
To the left, particularly Libdems it is. They regard the whole concept of giving precedence to your own nation familiy or tribe/community as inherently discriminating.
Richard- on the Brexit side, you have people like Donald Trump, Putin, Farage, the EDL, the BNP, hard left communists, the countryside alliance, Liam Fox, Bill Cash, the Daily Mail, Rupert Murdoch....a
You missed Kate Hoey, Zac Goldsmith, Graham Stringer, Kelvin Hopkins, Gisela Stuart, can't think how that can have happened.
FPT: An astonishing level of ignorance on here about our immigration system. Non-EU migrants have already been subject to a points based system and levies for using the NHS for the past 5 years.
so lets put e.u migrants under the same system and get rid of our racist immigration system we have now.
Quite. How Remainers can defend this perplexes me. Bring in the smart, ambitious and articulate from wherever - not just 27 others who are almost all Caucasian. It's a fatal flaw in their argument.
The numbers are such that to get immigration down to the 10s of thousands you are going to have to exclude many smart ambitious people from everywhere and completely stop any immigration for any other reasons including marriage , close relatives , asylum etc etc .
Close relatives - please define
Parents , children .
You do realise that there are many nations where parents never have automatic right to move and neither do adult children? My in-laws emigrated to Canada and became citizens there but my wife and I [and our children/their grandchildren] do not have any right to emigrate there as a result.
We might I suppose be able to get some points towards Canada's points-based system, but we couldn't simply move there under a close relations visa.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
Mr. Tyson, you consider me mean-spirited and selfish?
Wanker
I'm happy with taking in more refugees, think foreign aid is fine if better targeted, and don't care about immigration levels. But the EU does not provide enough benefit for the stifling unhelpful control it exerts and contempt it shows for those with concerns, and the latter is why reform us too late to change its nature. For its benefits and ours we should part. We will take a hit, but we have a chance. If it is a mistake we will live with it, but it shill have been more genuinely trying to positively sway us.
FPT: An astonishing level of ignorance on here about our immigration system. Non-EU migrants have already been subject to a points based system and levies for using the NHS for the past 5 years.
so lets put e.u migrants under the same system and get rid of our racist immigration system we have now.
Quite. How Remainers can defend this perplexes me. Bring in the smart, ambitious and articulate from wherever - not just 27 others who are almost all Caucasian. It's a fatal flaw in their argument.
The numbers are such that to get immigration down to the 10s of thousands you are going to have to exclude many smart ambitious people from everywhere and completely stop any immigration for any other reasons including marriage , close relatives , asylum etc etc .
Close relatives - please define
Parents , children .
You do realise that there are many nations where parents never have automatic right to move and neither do adult children? My in-laws emigrated to Canada and became citizens there but my wife and I [and our children/their grandchildren] do not have any right to emigrate there as a result.
We might I suppose be able to get some points towards Canada's points-based system, but we couldn't simply move there under a close relations visa.
Indeed, in the UK system a non-EU citizen can only have their parent move here if they are a permanent residence and they can prove the parent is completely dependent on them for care. In practice it's very rare for such visas to be granted.
actually when you look at the ragtag mishaps that make up Brexit- the majority of them would gladly privatise the NHS, and tear up any sense of workers rights.
The more sensible Labour MPs have been making these points. Luckily for Brexit nobody is listening to them.
Well done on the Derby. Stupidly I changed at last minute and did Cloth of Stars.
The Scottish Leavers highpoint was yet to come, while the remainers were split with some foolishly telling themselves everything would go back to normal.
The leavers were left with just one option to line up behind and they did. The unionist remainers went back to their divisive squabbling.
Dan Hodges @DPJHodges 21m21 minutes ago Anyone know why all the bookies have suddenly started shifting odds back to Remain? Is there a new poll coming out?
You can sense the Remainers are getting twitchy. Desperate for any bit of good news. As Isam would say, longing for a throw in to cheer.
They should be getting twitchy. It feels very much like Leave are on their way to surprise (to the media and commentators) win to me.
Wishful thinking?
I'm a Remainer and I will be out campaigning next weekend. It's a gut feeling. A sense that, in my opinion, the UK is about to do something really stupid.
FPT: An astonishing level of ignorance on here about our immigration system. Non-EU migrants have already been subject to a points based system and levies for using the NHS for the past 5 years.
so lets put e.u migrants under the same system and get rid of our racist immigration system we have now.
Quite. How Remainers can defend this perplexes me. Bring in the smart, ambitious and articulate from wherever - not just 27 others who are almost all Caucasian. It's a fatal flaw in their argument.
The numbers are such that to get immigration down to the 10s of thousands you are going to have to exclude many smart ambitious people from everywhere and completely stop any immigration for any other reasons including marriage , close relatives , asylum etc etc .
Not being racist and successfully getting immigration down to the 10s of thousands are two separate points.
Personally I couldn't care less about getting immigration down to the 10s of thousands (and have said so repeatedly). I do not like racism. What about you? Do you care about getting immigration down? Do you support having a racist policy?
No and No
So you do not oppose removing our current racist policy then?
They are only racist to someone with a warped mind such as you .
Discrimination isn't the slightest bit racist in your eyes?
Discrimination may be caused by a number of factors but race does not have to be one of them .
So why are we granting free movement to all the impoverished Eastern European Caucasian Christian nations but not to Turkey or similar?
Because the former are in the EU and Turkey is not .
That is a truism. It is a statement of fact it is not a reason why we should discriminate this way.
This is false naïveté. Leavers are always banging on about how federalism and ever closer union and then feign ignorance about the practical manifestations.
That's absurd. As a leaver generally opposes federalism and ever closer union there is no reason for them to automatically support the practical manifestations of it.
It is for Remainers to justify said practical manifestations in order to justify federalism.
FPT: An astonishing level of ignorance on here about our immigration system. Non-EU migrants have already been subject to a points based system and levies for using the NHS for the past 5 years.
so lets put e.u migrants under the same system and get rid of our racist immigration system we have now.
Quite. How Remainers can defend this perplexes me. Bring in the smart, ambitious and articulate from wherever - not just 27 others who are almost all Caucasian. It's a fatal flaw in their argument.
The numbers are such that to get immigration down to the 10s of thousands you are going to have to exclude many smart ambitious people from everywhere and completely stop any immigration for any other reasons including marriage , close relatives , asylum etc etc .
Close relatives - please define
Parents , children .
You do realise that there are many nations where parents never have automatic right to move and neither do adult children? My in-laws emigrated to Canada and became citizens there but my wife and I [and our children/their grandchildren] do not have any right to emigrate there as a result.
We might I suppose be able to get some points towards Canada's points-based system, but we couldn't simply move there under a close relations visa.
Indeed, in the UK system a non-EU citizen can only have their parent move here if they are a permanent residence and they can prove the parent is completely dependent on them for care. In practice it's very rare for such visas to be granted.
Not exactly uncommon to come on a visitor's visa and to "accidentally" overstay for several years.
Well done on the Derby. Stupidly I changed at last minute and did Cloth of Stars.
Unlucky.
I missed all the business about the shoe, or I might have switched too. But then this
@clarebalding: Lots of messages from people who backed Harzand because of my dream - I just wish I had too! Delighted for the Weld family #InvestecDerby
FPT: An astonishing level of ignorance on here about our immigration system. Non-EU migrants have already been subject to a points based system and levies for using the NHS for the past 5 years.
so lets put e.u migrants under the same system and get rid of our racist immigration system we have now.
Quite. How Remainers can defend this perplexes me. Bring in the smart, ambitious and articulate from wherever - not just 27 others who are almost all Caucasian. It's a fatal flaw in their argument.
The numbers are such that to get immigration down to the 10s of thousands you are going to have to exclude many smart ambitious people from everywhere and completely stop any immigration for any other reasons including marriage , close relatives , asylum etc etc .
Close relatives - please define
Parents , children .
You do realise that there are many nations where parents never have automatic right to move and neither do adult children? My in-laws emigrated to Canada and became citizens there but my wife and I [and our children/their grandchildren] do not have any right to emigrate there as a result.
We might I suppose be able to get some points towards Canada's points-based system, but we couldn't simply move there under a close relations visa.
Indeed, in the UK system a non-EU citizen can only have their parent move here if they are a permanent residence and they can prove the parent is completely dependent on them for care. In practice it's very rare for such visas to be granted.
Not exactly uncommon to come on a visitor's visa and to "accidentally" overstay for several years.
That's a problem in any system and won't go away after Brexit. And anyone who overstays won't be given any extra leave to remain in the UK.
There is nothing I have read from OGH that remotely suggests he is minimally supportive of the current LD's as it currently stands. I think Dr Fox once suggested Farron was OK, but I took that down to a bad shift he had done at the clinic, or accidentally imbibing a shed load of prescription pharmaceuticals.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
No it isn't about promoting self interest. It is about having a level playing field for all people. Something that doesn't exist under the racist, protectionist system that you support.
Racist how?
It says that people from predominantly white European countries should have more right to travel to the UK to live and work than those from predominantly non white countries, irrespective of their individual qualifications or skills. It is of course not intentionally racist but the overall effect is to discriminate against those from non white countries.
"Number 10 is reported to be concerned about the balance of the audience at the Wembley event, which will be moderated by Question Time’s David Dimbleby, the Today programme’s Mishal Husain and Newsnight presenter Emily Maitlis. "
Sign of weakness there - mind you at least they have the BBC to ensure the audience is evenly balanced - 99.9% Remain, 0.1% undecided but leaning Remain.
I watched the Ipswich Question time, I thought the remainers were going to get lynched (metaphorically). Cardiff not so much.
I heard last week that there were serious voices in favour of Hilary Benn. I know this doesn't cut much ice with Labour members but if he's popular with his own MP's and they can see a chance winning even at their most suicidal it must be tempting.
And if it is Boris in 2017 and he's forced into an election Benn would be in an ideal position to win. Particularly if things go as badly as expected after Brexit
Boris would beat Benn especially as the electorate themselves voted for Brexit
Wouldn't that rather depend on how Brexit is working out in practice?.
The high point for Leave will be the day it wins the ref (if it does) - down hill all the way after that.
The fickle electorate will rapidly switch from blaming all their woes on the EU (as do they now orchestrated by the right wing press) to blaming all their woes on Brexit.
I think that is spot on in your last paragraph. Within months people will be complaining that immigration numbers are still too high.
A friend once pointed out to me when I was looking at buying a boat: "you only get two good days on a boat, the day you buy it and the day you sell it".
Brexit will be the same reaction, but the Brexiteers will not care, because they will have won.
Not a bad effort at making a progressive case, but even you admit we are taking a major leap into the unknown, and I don't like many of your fellow travellers.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
Mr. Tyson, you consider me mean-spirited and selfish?
Wanker
I'm happy with taking in more refugees, think foreign aid is fine if better targeted, and don't care about immigration levels. But the EU does not provide enough benefit for the stifling unhelpful control it exerts and contempt it shows for those with concerns, and the latter is why reform us too late to change its nature. For its benefits and ours we should part. We will take a hit, but we have a chance. If it is a mistake we will live with it, but it shill have been more genuinely trying to positively sway us.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
No it isn't about promoting self interest. It is about having a level playing field for all people. Something that doesn't exist under the racist, protectionist system that you support.
Racist how?
It says that people from predominantly white European countries should have more right to travel to the UK to live and work than those from predominantly non white countries, irrespective of their individual qualifications or skills. It is of course not intentionally racist but the overall effect is to discriminate against those from non white countries.
So you favour ending the racist policy of making it easier for predominantly white people from the suburbs to move to London than people from, say, Mogadishu?
So you do not oppose removing our current racist policy then?
They are only racist to someone with a warped mind such as you .
Discrimination isn't the slightest bit racist in your eyes?
Several years ago, I tried to organise a Sussex PB dinner - Mr Senior made loads of excuses why he wasn't available no matter what date I suggested. I came to the conclusion that he considered anyone other than LDs were unworthy and too dirty to associate with.
I'm in Sussex. (Mid)
Me too, Mr. White, though in Arundel and South Downs Constituency.
Perhaps we should try again for a Sussex PB meet, though because of my eyes it would have to be a lunch rather than a dinner and somewhere I can get to by public transport.
What say you, Miss Plato, Square Root, Mark Senior, Richard Nabavi, Jonathan, and any other Sussex PBers whose names I have, for the moment, forgotten? Lunch in, say, Brighton? We could go to Days and be cheap, cheerful and fattening or perhaps go up market and invite a guest speaker. I do know of a nice pub a stone's throw from the Station that does OK food and first class beer. Open to ideas.
I don't drink anything with alcohol in it, nor anything with too much fat.
There may still be a Lebanese restaurant in Hove Actually. Quite good when I was last there. Dry house but you can bring your own.
A friend once pointed out to me when I was looking at buying a boat: "you only get two good days on a boat, the day you buy it and the day you sell it".
I am frivolously considering buying a 5 man hovercraft, I may be optimistic in giving me more than two good days, but it seems worth a go, and there are vast amounts of 40 degree water just outside my door
Well done on the Derby. Stupidly I changed at last minute and did Cloth of Stars.
Unlucky.
I missed all the business about the shoe, or I might have switched too. But then this
@clarebalding: Lots of messages from people who backed Harzand because of my dream - I just wish I had too! Delighted for the Weld family #InvestecDerby
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
Mr. Llama, one imagines if the Lionheart's life hadn't been cut short he would have spent rather more time in England.
Blame Henry II for giving him continental land. That, coupled with the Third Crusade, didn't give him much opportunity to dwell in England.
Thomas (my cat) wants to be fed otherwise I would give your silly comments about Richard I the treatment they deserve. Suffice for now to say your grasp of historical facts is seldom to be faulted (though occasionally wonky) but your interpretation of those facts leaves much to be desired..
Still, squabbling about Richard I (Lionheart, my arse) will make a nice change from that other bloody fool, Hannibal.
Dan Hodges @DPJHodges 21m21 minutes ago Anyone know why all the bookies have suddenly started shifting odds back to Remain? Is there a new poll coming out?
You can sense the Remainers are getting twitchy. Desperate for any bit of good news. As Isam would say, longing for a throw in to cheer.
I think most Remainers think it could go either way and don't have as much emotionally invested in the result as the Leavers. With three weeks to go I would say there is a certain over-confidence being displayed on the Brexit side.
I genuinely believe leaving would be a big mistake but part of me is looking forward to seeing how Johnson et al get on delivering what they are promising.
Horseshit, America seems to be doing fine without free movement with anyone.
Erm... you are aware that the US is a union of 50 states with free movement and a single currency?
The UK is a union of 5 states with free movement and a single currency, so what ?
The point is, America has free movement and it has worked out fine for them.
Oh come off it. America is a sovereign nation, the people unsurprisingly move around freely inside its borders. Stop playing silly games. Which other country's citizens have free movement and rights to reside within the continental USA ?
Not a bad effort at making a progressive case, but even you admit we are taking a major leap into the unknown, and I don't like many of your fellow travellers.
Of course. Isn't that the whole rationale behind Brexit which is based on promoting self interest before considering wider issues.
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
Mr. Tyson, you consider me mean-spirited and selfish?
Wanker
I'm happy with taking in more refugees, think foreign aid is fine if better targeted, and don't care about immigration levels. But the EU does not provide enough benefit for the stifling unhelpful control it exerts and contempt it shows for those with concerns, and the latter is why reform us too late to change its nature. For its benefits and ours we should part. We will take a hit, but we have a chance. If it is a mistake we will live with it, but it shill have been more genuinely trying to positively sway us.
Sometime the unknown is a better option, if the known is so poor. I used to think thus was not the case but now I do. I'd prefer Cameron to most of the alternatives but that's life.
Great analogy Fox. I have to tell that to my wife who harbours some wistful fantasy about us sailing on the Med.
And buying a holiday home I would suggest, especially one abroad. Seems a wonderfully romantic idea. Not that I have done that terrible mistake either.
I heard last week that there were serious voices in favour of Hilary Benn. I know this doesn't cut much ice with Labour members but if he's popular with his own MP's and they can see a chance winning even at their most suicidal it must be tempting.
And if it is Boris in 2017 and he's forced into an election Benn would be in an ideal position to win. Particularly if things go as badly as expected after Brexit
Boris would beat Benn especially as the electorate themselves voted for Brexit
Wouldn't that rather depend on how Brexit is working out in practice?.
The high point for Leave will be the day it wins the ref (if it does) - down hill all the way after that.
The fickle electorate will rapidly switch from blaming all their woes on the EU (as do they now orchestrated by the right wing press) to blaming all their woes on Brexit.
I think that is spot on in your last paragraph. Within months people will be complaining that immigration numbers are still too high.
A friend once pointed out to me when I was looking at buying a boat: "you only get two good days on a boat, the day you buy it and the day you sell it".
Brexit will be the same reaction, but the Brexiteers will not care, because they will have won.
Comments
Anyone know why all the bookies have suddenly started shifting odds back to Remain? Is there a new poll coming out?
I guess most of you Brexit lot do not like our contribution to overseas aid. Many of you are climate change sceptics. Most think benefits are too high. Most would like to tear up the Human Rights Act. Most do not like the Social Chapter. Many of you would like to ban Islamic refugees even though many are children and families fleeing for their lives. You can count amongst your allies lovely groups like the EDL and BNP, and the Countryside Alliance, and pro hunting groups.
Get my drift comrade. You Brexiteers are by and large a mean spirited and selfish lot, and some of you are really quite unpleasant- though I am not saying you personally are Morris.
America does have mass migration.
They regard the whole concept of giving precedence to your own nation familiy or tribe/community as inherently discriminating.
Sign of weakness there - mind you at least they have the BBC to ensure the audience is evenly balanced - 99.9% Remain, 0.1% undecided but leaning Remain.
Perhaps we should try again for a Sussex PB meet, though because of my eyes it would have to be a lunch rather than a dinner and somewhere I can get to by public transport.
What say you, Miss Plato, Square Root, Mark Senior, Richard Nabavi, Jonathan, and any other Sussex PBers whose names I have, for the moment, forgotten? Lunch in, say, Brighton? We could go to Days and be cheap, cheerful and fattening or perhaps go up market and invite a guest speaker. I do know of a nice pub a stone's throw from the Station that does OK food and first class beer. Open to ideas.
Politicians in my view should be representing the interests of those that elected them, which includes inter alia British Asians, British Africans, British Americans, British Indians, British Pakistanis, British Inuit, and anyone that has, or reasonable can expect to form part of the franchise, it most emphatically has nothing to do with race much as our lefty friends and increasingly desparate remainers would like to suggest otherwise.
http://i.imgur.com/Qm5Q1TX.jpg
I was rather hoping that someone could make a progressive and optimistic case for Brexit, but there you go. Too much to ask
One can't be too prepared.
It's entirely possible for reasonable men to be presented with the same evidence and reach differing conclusions without one side being necessarily immoral.
A win for whom and a loss for whom?
We should go back to St Edmund, a proper English saint and whilst about it we could dump the white duster of his flag and re-introduce England's proper flag - the White Dragon.
Miss Plato, as Mr. Tyson pointed out, I'm bad, I'm bad, I know it, I'm bad
On the outcome if Remain win, my personal view is that Cameron will still call it a day - I can't see there's much in it for him but grief if he hangs around for another year or two. But it opens the door for a Remain candidate to succeed him, and May has to be the big favourite in that case - stable, reliable and avoiding burning too many boats with Leavers. I would expect her to make a friendly gesture to Leavers, perhaps also making Gove Chancellor and giving Osborne the Foreign Office. At that point, attention might switch to Labour's dilemmas, with an awkward conference debate on Trident on top of the general unresolved issues.
The resolution of the issue into "no change" will produce a stock market and sterling bounce, and I'd expect things to calm down for a while, but the structural problems of the economy will still be there (and helped by a stronger pound), and I'd think that the usual mid-term blues would set in after a year or so. But it's much easier to see a relatively smooth path for the Government for a while. Unhappy Leavers have been focusing their fire on Cameron personally, and when he goes I think quite a bit of the bitterness will dissipate, especially if Remain wins by a non-trivial margin.
Should I lump the winnings on Andy?
If you were watching Brexit the movie...the Brexit group would hardly come across as the good guys.
The worst part of the Brexit campaign is that they disingenuously take up populist causes- more funding to the NHS, workers rights etc....when actually when you look at the ragtag mishaps that make up Brexit- the majority of them would gladly privatise the NHS, and tear up any sense of workers rights.
The high point for Leave will be the day it wins the ref (if it does) - down hill all the way after that.
The fickle electorate will rapidly switch from blaming all their woes on the EU (as do they now orchestrated by the right wing press) to blaming all their woes on Brexit.
Wishful thinking?
We might I suppose be able to get some points towards Canada's points-based system, but we couldn't simply move there under a close relations visa.
@SophyRidgeSky: Boris Johnson & Michael Gove launch the 5 @vote_leave pledges with Olympic Park as backdrop https://t.co/fVhNvFVubd
Blame Henry II for giving him continental land. That, coupled with the Third Crusade, didn't give him much opportunity to dwell in England.
The Scottish Leavers highpoint was yet to come, while the remainers were split with some foolishly telling themselves everything would go back to normal.
The leavers were left with just one option to line up behind and they did. The unionist remainers went back to their divisive squabbling.
The potential for a repeat is there.
It is for Remainers to justify said practical manifestations in order to justify federalism.
I missed all the business about the shoe, or I might have switched too. But then this
@clarebalding: Lots of messages from people who backed Harzand because of my dream - I just wish I had too! Delighted for the Weld family #InvestecDerby
What about our genial host?
There is nothing I have read from OGH that remotely suggests he is minimally supportive of the current LD's as it currently stands. I think Dr Fox once suggested Farron was OK, but I took that down to a bad shift he had done at the clinic, or accidentally imbibing a shed load of prescription pharmaceuticals.
I wonder how the Wembly audience will be.
A friend once pointed out to me when I was looking at buying a boat: "you only get two good days on a boat, the day you buy it and the day you sell it".
Brexit will be the same reaction, but the Brexiteers will not care, because they will have won.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2016/06/04/barack-obama-muhammad-ali-was-and-always-will-be-the-champ/
There may still be a Lebanese restaurant in Hove Actually. Quite good when I was last there. Dry house but you can bring your own.
I keep off the grass, unlike some in my party!
I am a LibDem, though one that is a little unconvinced as yet by Farron. I voted for Lamb.
It will be a long road back, but Corbyn vs Eurosceptic Tory does create a lot of space.
Earlier you called me a 'fukin idiot'. I hope me and tyson haven't worn out your vocabulary
Still, squabbling about Richard I (Lionheart, my arse) will make a nice change from that other bloody fool, Hannibal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36445522
I think most Remainers think it could go either way and don't have as much emotionally invested in the result as the Leavers. With three weeks to go I would say there is a certain over-confidence being displayed on the Brexit side.
I genuinely believe leaving would be a big mistake but part of me is looking forward to seeing how Johnson et al get on delivering what they are promising.
And buying a holiday home I would suggest, especially one abroad. Seems a wonderfully romantic idea. Not that I have done that terrible mistake either.
Smart punters may now decide to switch to Joko to double their chance of winning...