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  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    "Alex Salmond should quit the campaign to keep Britain in the EU before "before he does any more damage", the Liberal Democrats said yesterday after he used the first TV debate to predict a second independence referendum within two years of Brexit.

    Willie Rennie, the Scottish Lib Dem leader, said Mr Salmond had behaved like a “not-so-secret agent for the Leave campaign” during the BBC One broadcast on Thursday night when he appeared alongside Labour’s Alan Johnson for the Remain campaign.

    He said the former First Minister had spent more time “rubbishing” the pro-EU campaign and talking about Scottish independence than making the positive case for staying in Europe....

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/27/alex-salmond-should-quit-remain-campaign-before-he-does-more-dam/
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    tlg86 said:

    viewcode said:

    RobD said:



    No it doesn't. Christian in the census means all denominations, not just Catholic.

    Here's an interesting thing. The Census has over 1300 religion classifications. Take a look
    Enough people put Arsenal for it to be counted. I put Arsene Knows. I'm not sure he does now :(
    A few years ago the Met Police, keen to measure the diversity of its recruits, asked each new copper to fill in a form on day one which included questions on ethnicity and religion. The results came as a surprise to the brass, who found that the most common religion amongst their new recruits was Jedi.
    I put myself down as Jedi in the 2001 census.
    I rest my case.

    In the 2001 and 2011 census I put myself down as basically High CofE but with strong Taoist/buddhist overtones. God knows what the bean counters made of that. Probably no worse than they made of Herself's description of her religion, i.e. "Very high end Oxford movement CofE but I cannot stand Catholicism".

    Religion don't get discussed much in the Llama household; make the wrong comment on a matter of doctrine and I can be sleeping on the sofa for a week.
  • MikeK said:

    Top IS commander in Fallujah killed. Seems to be a matter of time now until all IS territory is recovered. What happens next is anyone's guess.

    If a vacuum is allowed to develop and history is any guide.
    Any new mob will be a lot nastier than what went before.
    You can't get much nastier than Isil. I mean how many heads do you want to see severed in a day?
    I'm sure that we would have said that about the Taliban, and then ISIS turn out so much worse. The PLO and Hamas etc.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    CD13 said:

    Dr Fox,

    "Skegness and Mablethorpe are known in Leicester as "the Far East".

    It's all the caravans. Ingoldmells is a good example - wasn't it the largest caravan park in the world?

    Leicester ... a nice enough place in the West Midlands.


    The Geographic centre of England is said to be near Hinckley, so we are in the East :-)

    Skegness and the Lincs coast is still a popular place for Leicester and Nottingham folk to retire to,, as is Hunstanton, slightly posher Leics folk go to North Norfolk.

    I rather like North Norfolk myself.

  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    TOPPING said:

    hunchman said:

    Agree with OGH about the stupid £350m figure that Leave are using - £150m would have been fine, but to backtrack and re-spray those vans now would invite ridicule so they're in a no win situation of their own making.

    Personally I think the leave campaign need to fight much more on economics - they've got a perfectly good story to tell on the EFTA / EEA model. By continuing on the immigration theme they're merely preaching to the converted - fine to spend a bit of time on it (not as though that's why I'm in the leave camp) to keep that block on side but it needs to be a much more rounded campaign than has been the case over the past week.

    I think the levels of immigration are pretty jaw-dropping and likely to sway some of those on the fence. As they might say, 330k immigrants here, 330k immigrants there, pretty soon you're talking a real population increase.
    As a libertarian I take a far more relaxed position than most in the leave camp on immigration. The thing that annoys me most is the positive discrimination in favour of EU nationals at the expense of non-EU nationals under the current arrangements. But the demographic crunch necessitates immigration of skilled workers - our economy and public services depend on it. But no politician has ever tried to explain that reality - yes it would require a longer attention span than the average voter possesses but it should be a point made all the same.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554

    Top IS commander in Fallujah killed. Seems to be a matter of time now until all IS territory is recovered. What happens next is anyone's guess.

    Guardian had news yesterday that us special ops had been photographed fighting in towns on the way to aleppo.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    MikeK said:

    Top IS commander in Fallujah killed. Seems to be a matter of time now until all IS territory is recovered. What happens next is anyone's guess.

    If a vacuum is allowed to develop and history is any guide.
    Any new mob will be a lot nastier than what went before.
    You can't get much nastier than Isil. I mean how many heads do you want to see severed in a day?
    I'm sure that we would have said that about the Taliban, and then ISIS turn out so much worse. The PLO and Hamas etc.
    And the common denominator between all those groups is? Asking for a friend.
  • tlg86 said:

    viewcode said:

    RobD said:



    No it doesn't. Christian in the census means all denominations, not just Catholic.

    Here's an interesting thing. The Census has over 1300 religion classifications. Take a look
    Enough people put Arsenal for it to be counted. I put Arsene Knows. I'm not sure he does now :(
    A few years ago the Met Police, keen to measure the diversity of its recruits, asked each new copper to fill in a form on day one which included questions on ethnicity and religion. The results came as a surprise to the brass, who found that the most common religion amongst their new recruits was Jedi.
    I put myself down as Jedi in the 2001 census.
    I rest my case.

    In the 2001 and 2011 census I put myself down as basically High CofE but with strong Taoist/buddhist overtones. God knows what the bean counters made of that. Probably no worse than they made of Herself's description of her religion, i.e. "Very high end Oxford movement CofE but I cannot stand Catholicism".

    Religion don't get discussed much in the Llama household; make the wrong comment on a matter of doctrine and I can be sleeping on the sofa for a week.
    Quite a few of my mates did too.
    It was very much the view of 'Ask a silly question.....'
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554

    I've just watched Liam Fox being interviewed by Adam Boulton on SKY. I don't think Liam Fox managed to complete a single sentence due to constant interruptions. All presenters do it but Adam Boulton is one of the worse. It's so bloody frustrating.

    Bolton isn't in the same league as Evan "muchous interruptous" Davis.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    hunchman said:

    TOPPING said:

    hunchman said:

    Agree with OGH about the stupid £350m figure that Leave are using - £150m would have been fine, but to backtrack and re-spray those vans now would invite ridicule so they're in a no win situation of their own making.

    Personally I think the leave campaign need to fight much more on economics - they've got a perfectly good story to tell on the EFTA / EEA model. By continuing on the immigration theme they're merely preaching to the converted - fine to spend a bit of time on it (not as though that's why I'm in the leave camp) to keep that block on side but it needs to be a much more rounded campaign than has been the case over the past week.

    I think the levels of immigration are pretty jaw-dropping and likely to sway some of those on the fence. As they might say, 330k immigrants here, 330k immigrants there, pretty soon you're talking a real population increase.
    As a libertarian I take a far more relaxed position than most in the leave camp on immigration. The thing that annoys me most is the positive discrimination in favour of EU nationals at the expense of non-EU nationals under the current arrangements. But the demographic crunch necessitates immigration of skilled workers - our economy and public services depend on it. But no politician has ever tried to explain that reality - yes it would require a longer attention span than the average voter possesses but it should be a point made all the same.
    Absolutely. But to many people, perhaps most, these are large numbers and as you say, with attention spans as they are, they won't get beyond the headlines.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    Rashford looking good for England...the way we are defending we are going to need to score 3 or 4 every game at the euros!
  • MikeK said:

    Top IS commander in Fallujah killed. Seems to be a matter of time now until all IS territory is recovered. What happens next is anyone's guess.

    If a vacuum is allowed to develop and history is any guide.
    Any new mob will be a lot nastier than what went before.
    You can't get much nastier than Isil. I mean how many heads do you want to see severed in a day?
    I'm sure that we would have said that about the Taliban, and then ISIS turn out so much worse. The PLO and Hamas etc.
    And the common denominator between all those groups is? Asking for a friend.
    They're all Mossad fronts which back Brexit
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    EPG said:

    I bet there aren't many constituencies in which Ukip won over 20 times the Conservative vote. But Belfast West was one. :)

    When I did my post GE analysis of UKIP seats it was fairly easy to find seats with 15-20% of the vote, but there did seem to be a ceiling around 30%, so in FPTP I think that UKIP only really stands a chance in 3 way Marginals, where they are one of the 3. Even there they did not gain a seat.

    If the Tory party implodes then the ceiling may raise, but I think that there are simply not enough people who buy into the strange hybrid of public schoolboys and anti-migration anger to go much higher. Britons are a pretty tolerant lot, suspicious of insurgents.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,756

    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't get the enthusiasm from certain remainers here. Most people I know are looking forward to potentially voting remain with about as much enthusiasm as using a suppository after eating 50 hard boiled eggs.
    It's internecine. REMAINIACS on the right (and we're speaking mainly about the right) have passim.

    Of course the traitorous pig-dogs of the REMAIN camp are completely deluded - they will be the ones suffering, if REMAIN wins - paradoxically - but that is what they think.

    Which won't happen.

    One of things (like Sean Fear) value.

    It's perfectly clear the europhile Left of the party were trying to call the eurosceptic bluff with this referendum, win a 65-35 victory (or more) and close this issue down for decades.

    That isn't going to happen. Instead, they may have just let the genie out the bottle.

    Brexit was a fringe position even as recently as four years ago.

    The referendum has got a lot of us thinking about the EU for the first time. Up until just a few months ago I thought I was going to sit it all out. But I found myself moving to Remain quite strongly when I began to consider the issues for the first time. Over the course of the campaign, though, and thanks in no small part to exchanges on here. I have drifted a lot more towards scepticism and the EU currently being the least worst option. I think that if EEA/EFTA were still a realistic option I might even be persuadable on Leave this time round. But that is not going to happen.

    At the very least, I'd say, a lot of us will be looking a lot more closely at developments inside the EU than we have in the past. If the other member states do as you believe they will and misread a vote to Remain I can see us being out within a relatively short period of time.

    That's a very interesting and fair post, SO.

    Thank you.

    I don't want to sound like a dick, but I do think you have been an absolute star on this site over the last few weeks. We've all lost our tempers now and again, but you have really helped me to frame my thinking and have challenged me. MaxPB is another, as are RCS, Richard Tyndall. Sean Fear and Alanbrooke. It's been a real education. Whatever happens next month I am grateful for that.

    Thank you.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    MikeK said:

    Top IS commander in Fallujah killed. Seems to be a matter of time now until all IS territory is recovered. What happens next is anyone's guess.

    If a vacuum is allowed to develop and history is any guide.
    Any new mob will be a lot nastier than what went before.
    You can't get much nastier than Isil. I mean how many heads do you want to see severed in a day?
    I'm sure that we would have said that about the Taliban, and then ISIS turn out so much worse. The PLO and Hamas etc.
    And the common denominator between all those groups is? Asking for a friend.
    They're all Mossad fronts which back Brexit
    Howls of derisive laughter there, Bruce!
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Roger said:

    Don't you think it might give a more balanced picture to say that out of the last ten polls Remain have been in the lead in seven two have been tied and one has had Leave in the lead?

    Not really because those outcomes depend on the use of one method.

    It would however be fair to say that Leave need online polls to be right.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    JackW said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Trump thinks he can win California - or at least force the Democrats to spend a fortune fighting him off!

    Wouldn't be the first time a woman had to fight off Trump .... :smile:
    Well it will be nearly the first time a man, instead of a woman, has had to fight off a Clinton.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,756

    Yorkcity said:

    Mr. Royale, whilst I agree with you on lack of enthusiasm, don't count your chickens yet. A 60/40 Remain win remains [ahem] eminently possible.

    The most (domestically) important development in the campaigns so far has been the destruction of Cameron's position as a relatively trusted, unifying figure within the Conservative Party.

    It's all very well winning a war, but if you piss off your own side so much they want to re-enact Caesar's death then one's strategy is flawed.

    Morris , I agree .
    Michael Portillo said last night , that from all he knew about David Cameron if he was not PM ,he would voting to leave.
    Both Cameron and Hague have surprised me with strong support for remain, with no balance on their previous positions.
    I believe one should be open to change your opinion if the facts have changed.
    However it is hard to understand what has changed so fundamentally apart from they are in or have been in control of the foreign office.
    David Cameron always plays to win and that is why the Conservative party are in power
    There's winning in the short term, and losing in the long term.

    If Cameron scrapes a win, he'll save his career, but will still be reviled by right wing voters. As Blair is now reviled by left wing voters. What does it profit a man to secure such a victory?
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,674

    EPG said:

    I bet there aren't many constituencies in which Ukip won over 20 times the Conservative vote. But Belfast West was one. :)

    When I did my post GE analysis of UKIP seats it was fairly easy to find seats with 15-20% of the vote, but there did seem to be a ceiling around 30%, so in FPTP I think that UKIP only really stands a chance in 3 way Marginals, where they are one of the 3. Even there they did not gain a seat.

    If the Tory party implodes then the ceiling may raise, but I think that there are simply not enough people who buy into the strange hybrid of public schoolboys and anti-migration anger to go much higher. Britons are a pretty tolerant lot, suspicious of insurgents.
    They won 2 per cent of the vote in Belfast West. Not THAT bad considering they got similar scores in some much more prosperous parts of the country in Scotland. The poor Conservative candidate got less than 0.1 per cent.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    I rather like North Norfolk myself.

    Of course you do .... it's LibDem-By-The-Sea ....

    "Yellow Peril Paddling Here"

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,270

    I've just watched Liam Fox being interviewed by Adam Boulton on SKY. I don't think Liam Fox managed to complete a single sentence due to constant interruptions. All presenters do it but Adam Boulton is one of the worse. It's so bloody frustrating.

    Bolton isn't in the same league as Evan "muchous interruptous" Davis.
    It needs a politician to REALLY have a go at one of these presenters. It would be doing democracy a real favour.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    hunchman said:

    TOPPING said:

    hunchman said:

    Agree with OGH about the stupid £350m figure that Leave are using - £150m would have been fine, but to backtrack and re-spray those vans now would invite ridicule so they're in a no win situation of their own making.

    Personally I think the leave campaign need to fight much more on economics - they've got a perfectly good story to tell on the EFTA / EEA model. By continuing on the immigration theme they're merely preaching to the converted - fine to spend a bit of time on it (not as though that's why I'm in the leave camp) to keep that block on side but it needs to be a much more rounded campaign than has been the case over the past week.

    I think the levels of immigration are pretty jaw-dropping and likely to sway some of those on the fence. As they might say, 330k immigrants here, 330k immigrants there, pretty soon you're talking a real population increase.
    As a libertarian I take a far more relaxed position than most in the leave camp on immigration. The thing that annoys me most is the positive discrimination in favour of EU nationals at the expense of non-EU nationals under the current arrangements. But the demographic crunch necessitates immigration of skilled workers - our economy and public services depend on it. But no politician has ever tried to explain that reality - yes it would require a longer attention span than the average voter possesses but it should be a point made all the same.
    Exactly my position.
  • MikeK said:

    Top IS commander in Fallujah killed. Seems to be a matter of time now until all IS territory is recovered. What happens next is anyone's guess.

    If a vacuum is allowed to develop and history is any guide.
    Any new mob will be a lot nastier than what went before.
    You can't get much nastier than Isil. I mean how many heads do you want to see severed in a day?
    I'm sure that we would have said that about the Taliban, and then ISIS turn out so much worse. The PLO and Hamas etc.
    And the common denominator between all those groups is? Asking for a friend.
    They're all Mossad fronts which back Brexit
    Howls of derisive laughter there, Bruce!
    Sorry, I don't get the Bruce reference.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    Johnny Depp is in the big doo doo...
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    foxinsoxuk said "I rather like North Norfolk myself."

    Seconded. I like the local people there. Generally I find that if you treat 'em straight they reciprocate.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    weejonnie said:

    Well it will be nearly the first time a man, instead of a woman, has had to fight off a Clinton.

    Chortle .... :smiley:

  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062

    EPG said:

    I bet there aren't many constituencies in which Ukip won over 20 times the Conservative vote. But Belfast West was one. :)

    When I did my post GE analysis of UKIP seats it was fairly easy to find seats with 15-20% of the vote, but there did seem to be a ceiling around 30%, so in FPTP I think that UKIP only really stands a chance in 3 way Marginals, where they are one of the 3. Even there they did not gain a seat.

    If the Tory party implodes then the ceiling may raise, but I think that there are simply not enough people who buy into the strange hybrid of public schoolboys and anti-migration anger to go much higher. Britons are a pretty tolerant lot, suspicious of insurgents.
    I think you make a good point. I'm not sure that an anti immigrant group which 'Leave' are starting to look like can win a majority. I think there's a significant body of voters who would never line up with such a grouping whatever their view on 'in' or 'out'.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,048

    tlg86 said:

    viewcode said:

    RobD said:



    No it doesn't. Christian in the census means all denominations, not just Catholic.

    Here's an interesting thing. The Census has over 1300 religion classifications. Take a look
    Enough people put Arsenal for it to be counted. I put Arsene Knows. I'm not sure he does now :(
    A few years ago the Met Police, keen to measure the diversity of its recruits, asked each new copper to fill in a form on day one which included questions on ethnicity and religion. The results came as a surprise to the brass, who found that the most common religion amongst their new recruits was Jedi.
    I put myself down as Jedi in the 2001 census.
    I rest my case.

    In the 2001 and 2011 census I put myself down as basically High CofE but with strong Taoist/buddhist overtones. God knows what the bean counters made of that. Probably no worse than they made of Herself's description of her religion, i.e. "Very high end Oxford movement CofE but I cannot stand Catholicism".

    Religion don't get discussed much in the Llama household; make the wrong comment on a matter of doctrine and I can be sleeping on the sofa for a week.
    Quite a few of my mates did too.
    It was very much the view of 'Ask a silly question.....'
    Perfectly sensible question. It makes great sense on a one-to-one basis. When the wisdom of crowds is so indiscriminate in its response though it suggests that there is no wisdom.

    If you asked a machine - who is god? - it'd certainly respond that there is no god (Atheists are a very spiky mode). On the other hand if you ask it if there's a god it'd say that there is (Atheists are in a minority). It'd then explode.

    I think the census question is actually quite a good one. The variety of answers is perhaps an indication of the intellectual health of the nation.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    hunchman said:

    TOPPING said:

    hunchman said:

    Agree with OGH about the stupid £350m figure that Leave are using - £150m would have been fine, but to backtrack and re-spray those vans now would invite ridicule so they're in a no win situation of their own making.

    Personally I think the leave campaign need to fight much more on economics - they've got a perfectly good story to tell on the EFTA / EEA model. By continuing on the immigration theme they're merely preaching to the converted - fine to spend a bit of time on it (not as though that's why I'm in the leave camp) to keep that block on side but it needs to be a much more rounded campaign than has been the case over the past week.

    I think the levels of immigration are pretty jaw-dropping and likely to sway some of those on the fence. As they might say, 330k immigrants here, 330k immigrants there, pretty soon you're talking a real population increase.
    As a libertarian I take a far more relaxed position than most in the leave camp on immigration. The thing that annoys me most is the positive discrimination in favour of EU nationals at the expense of non-EU nationals under the current arrangements. But the demographic crunch necessitates immigration of skilled workers - our economy and public services depend on it. But no politician has ever tried to explain that reality - yes it would require a longer attention span than the average voter possesses but it should be a point made all the same.
    I must admit it is why I fall back on the simplistic claim that the UK immigration policy is rendered racist by our membership of the EU. It infuriates the Inners but is the easiest way to get people's attention to the fact that we turn away well educated Indians, Chinese and Africans because we are letting in so many uneducated Europeans.
  • Hertsmere_PubgoerHertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476
    edited May 2016
    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Mr. Royale, whilst I agree with you on lack of enthusiasm, don't count your chickens yet. A 60/40 Remain win remains [ahem] eminently possible.

    The most (domestically) important development in the campaigns so far has been the destruction of Cameron's position as a relatively trusted, unifying figure within the Conservative Party.

    It's all very well winning a war, but if you piss off your own side so much they want to re-enact Caesar's death then one's strategy is flawed.

    Morris , I agree .
    Michael Portillo said last night , that from all he knew about David Cameron if he was not PM ,he would voting to leave.
    Both Cameron and Hague have surprised me with strong support for remain, with no balance on their previous positions.
    I believe one should be open to change your opinion if the facts have changed.
    However it is hard to understand what has changed so fundamentally apart from they are in or have been in control of the foreign office.
    David Cameron always plays to win and that is why the Conservative party are in power
    There's winning in the short term, and losing in the long term.

    If Cameron scrapes a win, he'll save his career, but will still be reviled by right wing voters. As Blair is now reviled by left wing voters. What does it profit a man to secure such a victory?
    He'll save his career like Blair saved his career by winning the Iraq vote.
    It aint gonna last long.
    Edit: Hit send too soon.
    Major's ratings after the £ got booted from the ERM will last longer.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    I'm warming to this Leave thingy. As I understand it:-

    Immigration is going to end so all our housing and education problems will be ending soon.

    There won't be any bad economic consequences because I've been assured that the BoE, IMF & G20 are all talking rubbish so I don't need to worry about that anymore.

    It's even better than that, we are all going to become wealthy just like Switzerland. Norway or Canada because of all our fabulous new trade deals.

    Now we are going to be spending an extra £50m A DAY on the NHS once we leave.

    Really, what's not to like.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    I predict all those suspended over the past few months will slowly & quietly welcomed back.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,756
    OllyT said:

    I'm warming to this Leave thingy. As I understand it:-

    Immigration is going to end so all our housing and education problems will be ending soon.

    There won't be any bad economic consequences because I've been assured that the BoE, IMF & G20 are all talking rubbish so I don't need to worry about that anymore.

    It's even better than that, we are all going to become wealthy just like Switzerland. Norway or Canada because of all our fabulous new trade deals.

    Now we are going to be spending an extra £50m A DAY on the NHS once we leave.

    Really, what's not to like.

    You've said it.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    RodCrosby said:

    Trump thinks he can win California - or at least force the Democrats to spend a fortune fighting him off!

    He also thinks he can magic up water into existence that doesn't exist.
  • Taken from the Foreign Office 4 stage plan to deal with an international crisis.
    Spot on.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,270
    edited May 2016

    MikeK said:

    Top IS commander in Fallujah killed. Seems to be a matter of time now until all IS territory is recovered. What happens next is anyone's guess.

    If a vacuum is allowed to develop and history is any guide.
    Any new mob will be a lot nastier than what went before.
    You can't get much nastier than Isil. I mean how many heads do you want to see severed in a day?
    I'm sure that we would have said that about the Taliban, and then ISIS turn out so much worse. The PLO and Hamas etc.
    And the common denominator between all those groups is? Asking for a friend.
    They're all Mossad fronts which back Brexit
    Howls of derisive laughter there, Bruce!
    Sorry, I don't get the Bruce reference.
    You, Sir, are no philosopher... Maybe in charge of the sheep dip?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822

    I predict all those suspended over the past few months will slowly & quietly welcomed back.
    Dan Hodges
    Think Jews were the chief financiers of the slave trade? Then Labour is officially the party for you.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,048

    hunchman said:

    TOPPING said:

    hunchman said:

    Agree with OGH about the stupid £350m figure that Leave are using - £150m would have been fine, but to backtrack and re-spray those vans now would invite ridicule so they're in a no win situation of their own making.

    Personally I think the leave campaign need to fight much more on economics - they've got a perfectly good story to tell on the EFTA / EEA model. By continuing on the immigration theme they're merely preaching to the converted - fine to spend a bit of time on it (not as though that's why I'm in the leave camp) to keep that block on side but it needs to be a much more rounded campaign than has been the case over the past week.

    I think the levels of immigration are pretty jaw-dropping and likely to sway some of those on the fence. As they might say, 330k immigrants here, 330k immigrants there, pretty soon you're talking a real population increase.
    As a libertarian I take a far more relaxed position than most in the leave camp on immigration. The thing that annoys me most is the positive discrimination in favour of EU nationals at the expense of non-EU nationals under the current arrangements. But the demographic crunch necessitates immigration of skilled workers - our economy and public services depend on it. But no politician has ever tried to explain that reality - yes it would require a longer attention span than the average voter possesses but it should be a point made all the same.
    I must admit it is why I fall back on the simplistic claim that the UK immigration policy is rendered racist by our membership of the EU. It infuriates the Inners but is the easiest way to get people's attention to the fact that we turn away well educated Indians, Chinese and Africans because we are letting in so many uneducated Europeans.
    We turn away Jonny Foreigner because he's a foreigner and we don't understand him.

    I'm not a member of a London club, but I can imagine entirely the same criteria. Is he 'one of us'? Has he convinced us otherwise of his merits?. Clearly the 'he's' can also be 'she's'.

    We're way off piste in all this, and have been for years. All European countries similarly. We've had huge gains from our open-arms policy. The 'best of British' may turn out to be almost anyone. There are substantial losses though too. Our exemplars may turn out needing to spend their lives behind a veil. That's no trade for me.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    If the King's Lynn under 11 back four fancy a game for England , they can't be any worse at defending than the four playing this evening.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,262
    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Mr. Royale, whilst I agree with you on lack of enthusiasm, don't count your chickens yet. A 60/40 Remain win remains [ahem] eminently possible.

    The most (domestically) important development in the campaigns so far has been the destruction of Cameron's position as a relatively trusted, unifying figure within the Conservative Party.

    It's all very well winning a war, but if you piss off your own side so much they want to re-enact Caesar's death then one's strategy is flawed.

    Morris , I agree .
    Michael Portillo said last night , that from all he knew about David Cameron if he was not PM ,he would voting to leave.
    Both Cameron and Hague have surprised me with strong support for remain, with no balance on their previous positions.
    I believe one should be open to change your opinion if the facts have changed.
    However it is hard to understand what has changed so fundamentally apart from they are in or have been in control of the foreign office.
    David Cameron always plays to win and that is why the Conservative party are in power
    There's winning in the short term, and losing in the long term.

    If Cameron scrapes a win, he'll save his career, but will still be reviled by right wing voters. As Blair is now reviled by left wing voters. What does it profit a man to secure such a victory?
    Cameron had his chance to be a hero, and to go down in the history books as such.

    He blew it.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    JackW said:

    I rather like North Norfolk myself.

    Of course you do .... it's LibDem-By-The-Sea ....

    "Yellow Peril Paddling Here"

    They have an excellent MP!

    On of the Curiosities of the GE 2015 is that outside Orkney and Shetland, I think that none of the other 7 were LD in the 97 landslide.

    Holt is a lovely spot, and the marshes are a great spot to potter about with binoculars searching for the lesser spotted Yellow warbler.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    Sean_F said:

    OllyT said:

    I'm warming to this Leave thingy. As I understand it:-

    Immigration is going to end so all our housing and education problems will be ending soon.

    There won't be any bad economic consequences because I've been assured that the BoE, IMF & G20 are all talking rubbish so I don't need to worry about that anymore.

    It's even better than that, we are all going to become wealthy just like Switzerland. Norway or Canada because of all our fabulous new trade deals.

    Now we are going to be spending an extra £50m A DAY on the NHS once we leave.

    Really, what's not to like.

    You've said it.
    Great isn't it? Being a bit of a cautious individual though, do I get another vote later on if it does't happen? (not that I am suggesting for a moment that Leave are lying to me)

  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838
    New Thread folks?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    Nonce finder general unfortunate connection....

    http://order-order.com/2016/05/27/watsons-dodgy-flat-mate/
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838

    JackW said:

    I rather like North Norfolk myself.

    Of course you do .... it's LibDem-By-The-Sea ....

    "Yellow Peril Paddling Here"

    They have an excellent MP!

    On of the Curiosities of the GE 2015 is that outside Orkney and Shetland, I think that none of the other 7 were LD in the 97 landslide.

    Holt is a lovely spot, and the marshes are a great spot to potter about with binoculars searching for the lesser spotted Yellow warbler.
    Hallam & Carshalton were surely?
This discussion has been closed.