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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LEAVE’s repeated refusal to accept that its £50m a day clai

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  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,794
    http://thetimes.co.uk/article/e75830e2-2356-11e6-840f-4c4661f34181

    Interesting article by leftie Philip Collins. Basically calling for the same right wing solutions as myself and others on here with respect to immigration. Reintroduction of contributory based benefits, better technical education, higher wages and a residency link for public services.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    chestnut said:

    There is £25bn in the kitty from overseas aid and EU contributions.

    Leave's big mistake is going so small on what they can do and how much they have to work with to ensure smooth transition.

    https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/732634881029726208
    Absolutely dsgraceful! Why are we giving all that money to India?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,003
    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    tpfkar said:

    I can't see a referendum result being overturned, however close.

    But if the Leave campaign are "stretching the actualite" to the point where the Statistics Authority have to step in to correct, where's the power to stop them lying? The Leave campaign seem quite happy to blissfully ignore being caught out like this, and there's no way a letter from the ONS is going to get the same publicity as the figure on the side of the bus. So where's the power to compel them to take back such a misleading claim? I know the response will be to look at some of the nonsense the Remain campaign has come out with, but that's just a diversion - how do we stop an out and out lie when the people propogating it don't show any respect for the ONS?

    If lies and inaccuracies are pointed out, then what is the problem? Voters have been told in advance of going to the polls and can make their choices with that in mind. There would be absolutely no basis whatsoever for overturning a result in such circumstances.

    Question is why they are not calling out the absolute whoppers that the government and their lapdogs are coming out with.
    Because it's speculative bs. It's just an opinion about what might happen. No one can say it's definitely rubbish.
    Same as Leave so why are they biased to one side , ie lapdogs to Government. Do they think people are stupid.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    nunu said:

    taffys said:

    Seeing the debates yesterday it really struck me that class is a big factor in this referendum. Working class woman whose disabled mum can't get a bungalow being lectured by well heeled middle class lefty student.

    One class of people looking down on another for complaining that immigration is having big impact on their lives.

    Who outnumbers who and how many will vote? anyone's guess.

    Eactly my thoughts. Thats why Leave has made a huge mistake not making Labour leave politicians as front and centre of their campaign instead of bloody Boris Johnson. Jeez.
    Couldn't agree more. The likes of Gisela Stuart and Frank Field are far more capable of appealing across party lines than the likes of Gove, IDS and even Johnson are not.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,794
    edited May 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MTimT said:

    Can this be translated as. 'Increasing doubt about accuracy of phone polls, big uptick in bets on Brexit, oh eck Leave might actually win this?

    Yet where the money is going, Remain are still circa 80% on course to win.
    You mean where the money is going in low stakes explicit political betting markets, vs where the money is going in the real world, high stakes financial markets?
    Well given the strengthening pound it is pretty clear that the markets are betting on Remain also. Good for me as I have to go to Greece at the end of the month and I haven't paid the hotel bill yet.
    I'm off to Greece tomorrow :lol:
    I've heard there are still quite a few riots and protests, hopefully they will be all done by the time I go on the 23rd, yes I'm going to be in Greece on the day we vote and possibly leave the EU. :lol:
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,003
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MTimT said:

    Can this be translated as. 'Increasing doubt about accuracy of phone polls, big uptick in bets on Brexit, oh eck Leave might actually win this?

    Yet where the money is going, Remain are still circa 80% on course to win.
    You mean where the money is going in low stakes explicit political betting markets, vs where the money is going in the real world, high stakes financial markets?
    Well given the strengthening pound it is pretty clear that the markets are betting on Remain also. Good for me as I have to go to Greece at the end of the month and I haven't paid the hotel bill yet.
    I'm off to Greece tomorrow :lol:
    Lucky you
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    taffys said:

    Seeing the debates yesterday it really struck me that class is a big factor in this referendum. Working class woman whose disabled mum can't get a bungalow being lectured by well heeled middle class lefty student.

    One class of people looking down on another for complaining that immigration is having big impact on their lives.

    Who outnumbers who and how many will vote? anyone's guess.

    Historically the working class don't turn out to vote as much as the middle classes.

    Historically.

    Those who refuse to learn from history ...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,502
    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    tpfkar said:

    I can't see a referendum result being overturned, however close.

    But if the Leave campaign are "stretching the actualite" to the point where the Statistics Authority have to step in to correct, where's the power to stop them lying? The Leave campaign seem quite happy to blissfully ignore being caught out like this, and there's no way a letter from the ONS is going to get the same publicity as the figure on the side of the bus. So where's the power to compel them to take back such a misleading claim? I know the response will be to look at some of the nonsense the Remain campaign has come out with, but that's just a diversion - how do we stop an out and out lie when the people propogating it don't show any respect for the ONS?

    If lies and inaccuracies are pointed out, then what is the problem? Voters have been told in advance of going to the polls and can make their choices with that in mind. There would be absolutely no basis whatsoever for overturning a result in such circumstances.

    Question is why they are not calling out the absolute whoppers that the government and their lapdogs are coming out with.
    Because it's speculative bs. It's just an opinion about what might happen. No one can say it's definitely rubbish.
    Same as Leave so why are they biased to one side , ie lapdogs to Government. Do they think people are stupid.
    These people deal in the here and now. Theoretically leave could make all sorts of claims about how much more we'll have to do at the EU if we vote to Remain, and the stats authority could do nothing about it. I suppose the claims about Turkey joining are similar.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,084
    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Two further consequence of Leave choosing to run with a headline figure on (exaggerated) gross rather than net contributions are that:
    1. It's then difficult without being utterly contradictory to use the (true) claim that we pay in about 3 times as much to the EU as we get back in EU payments. The Remain campaign is going to great lengths to highlight all of the projects funded by various EU contributions, and the "3 times in than what we get back" is the obvious rebuttal to all that.
    2. It also makes it harder for them to focus on the fact that it's the EU not the UK that dictates where those EU payments are and are not applied and the questionable nature of much of those payments on a harmonised one-size-fits-all basis (e.g. precisely how the EU chooses to deploy its farm subsidies in support of large scale agribusiness should be more than a little contentious.)

    The Sunil on Sunday's "Be LEAVE" campaign has always used the net £8.5 billion (2015) figure.
    What you are failing to point out is what excellent value for money we get!

    Apart from Greece, the recipient countries are growing and modernising into excellent markets for our industries, with diaspora communities providing the gateway for these.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,502
    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    Germany to beat Italy for the first time in major tournament history.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,394

    Two further consequence of Leave choosing to run with a headline figure on (exaggerated) gross rather than net contributions are that:
    1. It's then difficult without being utterly contradictory to use the (true) claim that we pay in about 3 times as much to the EU as we get back in EU payments. The Remain campaign is going to great lengths to highlight all of the projects funded by various EU contributions, and the "3 times in than what we get back" is the obvious rebuttal to all that.
    2. It also makes it harder for them to focus on the fact that it's the EU not the UK that dictates where those EU payments are and are not applied and the questionable nature of much of those payments on a harmonised one-size-fits-all basis (e.g. precisely how the EU chooses to deploy its farm subsidies in support of large scale agribusiness should be more than a little contentious.)

    The Sunil on Sunday's "Be LEAVE" campaign has always used the net £8.5 billion (2015) figure.
    What you are failing to point out is what excellent value for money we get!

    Apart from Greece, the recipient countries are growing and modernising into excellent markets for our industries, with diaspora communities providing the gateway for these.
    Naught but REMAIN propaganda!
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited May 2016
    nunu said:

    taffys said:

    Seeing the debates yesterday it really struck me that class is a big factor in this referendum. Working class woman whose disabled mum can't get a bungalow being lectured by well heeled middle class lefty student.

    One class of people looking down on another for complaining that immigration is having big impact on their lives.

    Who outnumbers who and how many will vote? anyone's guess.

    Eactly my thoughts. Thats why Leave has made a huge mistake not making Labour leave politicians as front and centre of their campaign instead of bloody Boris Johnson. Jeez.
    The Labour Party vote from 2015 is indicating that somewhere between a quarter and a third will vote to leave.

    Yet Labour have just 9 Leave MPs out of 200+?

    God knows what that 25-33% of people make of virtually no one articulating their view? It's all a bit ScotLab.

    Corbyn is hiding so that no one asks him a question, while the Labour faces in this referendum are the lot that were soundly thrashed by Corbyn.

    And all the while people kid them about workers' rights being immutable in the EU. What do they think the French Oil Blockade is about, or the Three Day General Strike in Greece?


  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,092

    The public doesn't like being deceived. See the the Lib Dem for details.

    Except in Orkney and Shetland apparently
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,084
    I don't get the enthusiasm from certain remainers here. Most people I know are looking forward to potentially voting remain with about as much enthusiasm as using a suppository after eating 50 hard boiled eggs.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    Two donors have funded the competition - Mr Wheeler and AN Other I presume. It's a great PR stunt.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    @SeanT
    Can I send you an email?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,378
    edited May 2016
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Mr. Pulpstar, I know a good suppository joke.

    Young man living with his parents tells his mum that if she finds his suppositories in the fridge to leave them there, because that's on the instructions.

    She asks him why that might be.

    He answers that he likes to take them chilled.

    Edited extra bit: well, I know a suppository joke. The goodness or lack thereof is down to the reader.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,617

    QTWTAIN.

    Ministers could no more refuse to accept the result on those grounds than Leave could refuse to accept a Remain result because it is based on project Fear.

    That said I agree (and said weeks ago) that Leave were daft going with the £350 million a week figure. They should have knocked off the rebate.

    Of course the IFS figure is also bollocks. At a minimum it is £168 million a week for last year based on our net contribution. More realistically the figure is £288 million a week since we should use the gross not net figure. You don't calculate your tax bill based on what you get back in services. Nor should we for the EU.

    I agree that the £350 million a week figure should not have been used. They should have knocked off the rebate etc. Notably Andrea Leadsom refers to just £10billion a year net. A lower number, yet one that is unarguable on fact grounds. £10 billion is a lot of money to most voters.
    Which voters in particular is £10bn not a lot of money to?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited May 2016
    I am probably bias because I have a number of undergrad / postgrad qualifications in STEM subjects, but these questions that all da yuff are doing their nut on twitter don't seem hard...certainly not "impossible".

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2016/05/18/they-must-have-given-us-the-wrong-paper---students-fume-after-be/

    http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/education/the-gcse-maths-questions-which-are-stumping-millions-of-adults-1-7934794
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090

    What will cause Leave damage is that Sarah Wollaston, a Doctor and Leaver herself has said she won't be doing anything that has this inaccurate stat.

    If your own side says the figure is dodgy....

    To be honest, she does that with any Government policy she doesn't like as well.

    She plays by her own rules, and always has, which is why she won her original primary.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,617
    There is also a naughtiness by Remain (or by commentators) whereby the statement:

    "A diminution in aggregate GDP by 2030 is expected to be equivalent to £4,300 per household"

    has morphed into:

    "Households will be £4,300 per year worse off if we leave." (heard it today on WatO)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,378
    On-topic, it cuts both ways:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36397732

    "And it criticises the Remain campaign's claim the cost of imports could rise by "at least" £11bn if the UK leaves."
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090

    Two further consequence of Leave choosing to run with a headline figure on (exaggerated) gross rather than net contributions are that:
    1. It's then difficult without being utterly contradictory to use the (true) claim that we pay in about 3 times as much to the EU as we get back in EU payments. The Remain campaign is going to great lengths to highlight all of the projects funded by various EU contributions, and the "3 times in than what we get back" is the obvious rebuttal to all that.
    2. It also makes it harder for them to focus on the fact that it's the EU not the UK that dictates where those EU payments are and are not applied and the questionable nature of much of those payments on a harmonised one-size-fits-all basis (e.g. precisely how the EU chooses to deploy its farm subsidies in support of large scale agribusiness should be more than a little contentious.)

    The Sunil on Sunday's "Be LEAVE" campaign has always used the net £8.5 billion (2015) figure.
    What you are failing to point out is what excellent value for money we get!

    Apart from Greece, the recipient countries are growing and modernising into excellent markets for our industries, with diaspora communities providing the gateway for these.
    No. Stagnant and shrinking markets with dire economic performance in many parts of it.

    Try again.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090
    On topic, I'd love to see the Government try and defy a 51/49 Leave victory.

    If my reading of the British electorate is correct it'd be the one thing certain to lead a big swing from the Remain to the Leave camp.

    It would also see a dispatch of the leadership that'd make the murder of Caesar look like Dignitas.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,092
    MaxPB said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Does anyone have figures for EU country gross contributions to the EU budget by percentage of GDP? Where would the UK come on that table?

    Sorry, found the answer. It is actually quite surprising ...

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8036097.stm#start
    That was 2007, our figure has gone up since then because of hookers, drug addicts and Tony Blair.
    Slightly more up to date, from 2011 - not suprised that Germany, Netherlands and the like contribute a greater share of Gross National Income as EU contributions, I'm gobsmacked that Italy's relative contribution is even more.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,084
    England probably have enough now - for both Sri Lanka innings.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Two further consequence of Leave choosing to run with a headline figure on (exaggerated) gross rather than net contributions are that:
    1. It's then difficult without being utterly contradictory to use the (true) claim that we pay in about 3 times as much to the EU as we get back in EU payments. The Remain campaign is going to great lengths to highlight all of the projects funded by various EU contributions, and the "3 times in than what we get back" is the obvious rebuttal to all that.
    2. It also makes it harder for them to focus on the fact that it's the EU not the UK that dictates where those EU payments are and are not applied and the questionable nature of much of those payments on a harmonised one-size-fits-all basis (e.g. precisely how the EU chooses to deploy its farm subsidies in support of large scale agribusiness should be more than a little contentious.)

    The Sunil on Sunday's "Be LEAVE" campaign has always used the net £8.5 billion (2015) figure.
    What you are failing to point out is what excellent value for money we get!

    Apart from Greece, the recipient countries are growing and modernising into excellent markets for our industries, with diaspora communities providing the gateway for these.
    No. Stagnant and shrinking markets with dire economic performance in many parts of it.

    Try again.
    The Eurozone grew faster the first quarter of the year than either UK or USA.

    The non-EZ EU countries in Eastern Europe are the major recipients and growing at some of the fastest rates in Europe.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    "We're ignoring this result because our opponent told fibs."

    Might set a bit of a precedent.....

    Much better to expose the fibs...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,617
    edited May 2016
    SeanT said:

    @SeanT
    Can I send you an email?

    tomknoxbooks@gmail.com
    if you squint at that address it looks like: Tom at Oxbooks; or Tom Bollox; or Tom Knox is a bollox commentator on Brexit.

    Or something.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    Two donors have funded the competition - Mr Wheeler and AN Other I presume. It's a great PR stunt.
    There are 51 fixtures. If you assume that the probability of correctly the result of each match is about 0.5, then the probability of predicting all of them correctly is 0.5^51 i.e. about 0.000000000000000444.
    So with a prize of £50,000,000 and say 1 million people entering, the expected mean payout is abour 2.2p.

    So the insurance policy that Vote Leave will have taken out to cover themselves won't have required very deep pockets. To cover the premium a bit over 1p would be needed from each of the two donors, before allowing for the insurer's profit margin.



  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090
    edited May 2016
    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't get the enthusiasm from certain remainers here. Most people I know are looking forward to potentially voting remain with about as much enthusiasm as using a suppository after eating 50 hard boiled eggs.
    It's internecine. REMAINIACS on the right (and we're speaking mainly about the right) have loathed and feared the sceptics for decades (and vice versa). They will see a victory as a great advance, in that civil war, perhaps even a permanent triumph - and will hope to purge the party of the sceptics as a result. See articles by Matthew Parris, passim.

    Of course the traitorous pig-dogs of the REMAIN camp are completely deluded - they will be the ones suffering, if REMAIN wins - paradoxically - but that is what they think.

    Which won't happen.

    One of things (like Sean Fear) I'm taking away from this referendum is that people really don't like the EU. If all it does is just wakes people up to all the facts about how crap it really is to the UK, then that has value.

    It's perfectly clear the europhile Left of the party were trying to call the eurosceptic bluff with this referendum, win a 65-35 victory (or more) and close this issue down for decades.

    That isn't going to happen. Instead, they may have just let the genie out the bottle.

    Brexit was a fringe position even as recently as four years ago.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    Pulpstar said:

    England probably have enough now - for both Sri Lanka innings.

    Don't get ahead of yourself, we have Woakes bowling for us...
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,569

    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    Two donors have funded the competition - Mr Wheeler and AN Other I presume. It's a great PR stunt.
    There are 51 fixtures. If you assume that the probability of correctly the result of each match is about 0.5, then the probability of predicting all of them correctly is 0.5^51 i.e. about 0.000000000000000444.
    So with a prize of £50,000,000 and say 1 million people entering, the expected mean payout is abour 2.2p.

    So the insurance policy that Vote Leave will have taken out to cover themselves won't have required very deep pockets. To cover the premium a bit over 1p would be needed from each of the two donors, before allowing for the insurer's profit margin.

    The odds are much steeper than that! The 36 group fixtures could be a draw, so they are 3 way switches and your overall probability is (1/3)^36 * (1/2)^15. It's even tighter, as there are various tie-breaks possible with who would get second place in each group when tied, and who the highest scoring 3rd place teams are.

    They are stumping up a £50k guaranteed prize for whoever lasts longest without getting a result wrong - my guess is this will be claimed before the referendum. Would be hilarious if a committed REMAIN supporter won it....

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,041
    edited May 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    I was thinking of writing a little Python script that combined the electoral roll with every possible permutation of scores, so someone (somewhere) would win the 50 million.

    Then I realised that, assuming that for each game, each team could score between 0 and 5 goals, that there are 25 possible options for every game. 25^51 is spectacularly huge number: even if my script was able to enter 10 predictions a second, it would still take more than 100,000 years to submit all the possible results. And I think it's a fair bet their server would have run out of capacity before then. Not to mention that I might have missed the start of the tournament.

    Edit to add: I guessed the 100,000 years. I was actually out by a few orders of magnitude*. 25^51 / (10*60*60*24*365) has more than 65 zeros. And that's the number of years.

    * I admit, 59 is more than a few.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    SeanT said:

    @SeanT
    Can I send you an email?

    tomknoxbooks@gmail.com

    Thanks, sent.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,378
    Mr. Royale, whilst I agree with you on lack of enthusiasm, don't count your chickens yet. A 60/40 Remain win remains [ahem] eminently possible.

    The most (domestically) important development in the campaigns so far has been the destruction of Cameron's position as a relatively trusted, unifying figure within the Conservative Party.

    It's all very well winning a war, but if you piss off your own side so much they want to re-enact Caesar's death then one's strategy is flawed.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090

    Two further consequence of Leave choosing to run with a headline figure on (exaggerated) gross rather than net contributions are that:
    1. It's then difficult without being utterly contradictory to use the (true) claim that we pay in about 3 times as much to the EU as we get back in EU payments. The Remain campaign is going to great lengths to highlight all of the projects funded by various EU contributions, and the "3 times in than what we get back" is the obvious rebuttal to all that.
    2. It also makes it harder for them to focus on the fact that it's the EU not the UK that dictates where those EU payments are and are not applied and the questionable nature of much of those payments on a harmonised one-size-fits-all basis (e.g. precisely how the EU chooses to deploy its farm subsidies in support of large scale agribusiness should be more than a little contentious.)

    The Sunil on Sunday's "Be LEAVE" campaign has always used the net £8.5 billion (2015) figure.
    What you are failing to point out is what excellent value for money we get!

    Apart from Greece, the recipient countries are growing and modernising into excellent markets for our industries, with diaspora communities providing the gateway for these.
    No. Stagnant and shrinking markets with dire economic performance in many parts of it.

    Try again.
    The Eurozone grew faster the first quarter of the year than either UK or USA.

    The non-EZ EU countries in Eastern Europe are the major recipients and growing at some of the fastest rates in Europe.
    Lol. Pathetic.

    I have a stray grey hair on my bald head growing really strongly this last month.

    Therefore, I am not bald.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,084
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    I was thinking of writing a little Python script that combined the electoral roll with every possible permutation of scores, so someone (somewhere) would win the 50 million.

    Then I realised that, assuming that for each game, each team could score between 0 and 5 goals, that there are 25 possible options for every game. 25^61 is spectacularly huge number: even if my script was able to enter 10 predictions a second, it would still take more than 100,000 years to submit all the possible results. And I think it's a fair bet their server would have run out of capacity before then. Not to mention that I might have missed the start of the tournament.
    It doesn't need "correct score" - which improves the chances a little ALOT ! (Though they are still "small")
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    Two further consequence of Leave choosing to run with a headline figure on (exaggerated) gross rather than net contributions are that:
    1. It's then difficult without being utterly contradictory to use the (true) claim that we pay in about 3 times as much to the EU as we get back in EU payments. The Remain campaign is going to great lengths to highlight all of the projects funded by various EU contributions, and the "3 times in than what we get back" is the obvious rebuttal to all that.
    2. It also makes it harder for them to focus on the fact that it's the EU not the UK that dictates where those EU payments are and are not applied and the questionable nature of much of those payments on a harmonised one-size-fits-all basis (e.g. precisely how the EU chooses to deploy its farm subsidies in support of large scale agribusiness should be more than a little contentious.)

    The Sunil on Sunday's "Be LEAVE" campaign has always used the net £8.5 billion (2015) figure.
    What you are failing to point out is what excellent value for money we get!

    Apart from Greece, the recipient countries are growing and modernising into excellent markets for our industries, with diaspora communities providing the gateway for these.
    No. Stagnant and shrinking markets with dire economic performance in many parts of it.

    Try again.
    The Eurozone grew faster the first quarter of the year than either UK or USA.

    The non-EZ EU countries in Eastern Europe are the major recipients and growing at some of the fastest rates in Europe.
    Following your advice, I made the mistake of searching this table for EU countries from the top down, before reverting to bottom up.

    https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/countries-highest-gdp-growth

    GDP recovery since 2008 in the EU has been slower than in any other trading block or major country in the world economy.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,041

    What will cause Leave damage is that Sarah Wollaston, a Doctor and Leaver herself has said she won't be doing anything that has this inaccurate stat.

    If your own side says the figure is dodgy....

    To be honest, she does that with any Government policy she doesn't like as well.

    She plays by her own rules, and always has, which is why she won her original primary.
    I must admit, if I could vote for both sides to lose, I would.

    Failing that, it's Leave.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    I have a stray grey hair on my bald head growing really strongly this last month.

    Therefore, I am not bald.

    Are you a scion of the Smithson family ?

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,041
    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    I was thinking of writing a little Python script that combined the electoral roll with every possible permutation of scores, so someone (somewhere) would win the 50 million.

    Then I realised that, assuming that for each game, each team could score between 0 and 5 goals, that there are 25 possible options for every game. 25^61 is spectacularly huge number: even if my script was able to enter 10 predictions a second, it would still take more than 100,000 years to submit all the possible results. And I think it's a fair bet their server would have run out of capacity before then. Not to mention that I might have missed the start of the tournament.
    It doesn't need "correct score" - which improves the chances a little ALOT ! (Though they are still "small")
    OK. There are 36 group games, which can end in draws, and 15 knock out games that cannot. So:

    3^36 * 2^15

    Which - at a rate of 10 entries a second - would still take around 1,000,000,000,000 years to enter.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Two further consequence of Leave choosing to run with a headline figure on (exaggerated) gross rather than net contributions are that:
    1. It's then difficult without being utterly contradictory to use the (true) claim that we pay in about 3 times as much to the EU as we get back in EU payments. The Remain campaign is going to great lengths to highlight all of the projects funded by various EU contributions, and the "3 times in than what we get back" is the obvious rebuttal to all that.
    2. It also makes it harder for them to focus on the fact that it's the EU not the UK that dictates where those EU payments are and are not applied and the questionable nature of much of those payments on a harmonised one-size-fits-all basis (e.g. precisely how the EU chooses to deploy its farm subsidies in support of large scale agribusiness should be more than a little contentious.)

    The Sunil on Sunday's "Be LEAVE" campaign has always used the net £8.5 billion (2015) figure.
    What you are failing to point out is what excellent value for money we get!

    Apart from Greece, the recipient countries are growing and modernising into excellent markets for our industries, with diaspora communities providing the gateway for these.
    No. Stagnant and shrinking markets with dire economic performance in many parts of it.

    Try again.
    The Eurozone grew faster the first quarter of the year than either UK or USA.

    The non-EZ EU countries in Eastern Europe are the major recipients and growing at some of the fastest rates in Europe.
    Following your advice, I made the mistake of searching this table for EU countries from the top down, before reverting to bottom up.

    https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/countries-highest-gdp-growth

    GDP recovery since 2008 in the EU has been slower than in any other trading block or major country in the world economy.

    The European 'old money' looks stagnant while the cheap east flourishes.

    The protectionist aspect of the EU went awry when they admitted a lot of cheap labour.

    At some point they will have to harmonise national minimum wages. Some countries don't even have one.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,041

    Two further consequence of Leave choosing to run with a headline figure on (exaggerated) gross rather than net contributions are that:
    1. It's then difficult without being utterly contradictory to use the (true) claim that we pay in about 3 times as much to the EU as we get back in EU payments. The Remain campaign is going to great lengths to highlight all of the projects funded by various EU contributions, and the "3 times in than what we get back" is the obvious rebuttal to all that.
    2. It also makes it harder for them to focus on the fact that it's the EU not the UK that dictates where those EU payments are and are not applied and the questionable nature of much of those payments on a harmonised one-size-fits-all basis (e.g. precisely how the EU chooses to deploy its farm subsidies in support of large scale agribusiness should be more than a little contentious.)

    The Sunil on Sunday's "Be LEAVE" campaign has always used the net £8.5 billion (2015) figure.
    What you are failing to point out is what excellent value for money we get!

    Apart from Greece, the recipient countries are growing and modernising into excellent markets for our industries, with diaspora communities providing the gateway for these.
    No. Stagnant and shrinking markets with dire economic performance in many parts of it.

    Try again.
    The Eurozone grew faster the first quarter of the year than either UK or USA.

    The non-EZ EU countries in Eastern Europe are the major recipients and growing at some of the fastest rates in Europe.
    Following your advice, I made the mistake of searching this table for EU countries from the top down, before reverting to bottom up.

    https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/countries-highest-gdp-growth

    GDP recovery since 2008 in the EU has been slower than in any other trading block or major country in the world economy.

    Point of order, those are forecasts for 2015. As it turned out, pretty much the only countries that exceeded growth forecasts for '15 were in the Eurozone*.

    * Not that the numbers were particularly good. And almost all the outperformance can be put down to the lower price of commodities, which lowers imports, and therefore increases GDP.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,569
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    I was thinking of writing a little Python script that combined the electoral roll with every possible permutation of scores, so someone (somewhere) would win the 50 million.

    Then I realised that, assuming that for each game, each team could score between 0 and 5 goals, that there are 25 possible options for every game. 25^61 is spectacularly huge number: even if my script was able to enter 10 predictions a second, it would still take more than 100,000 years to submit all the possible results. And I think it's a fair bet their server would have run out of capacity before then. Not to mention that I might have missed the start of the tournament.
    It doesn't need "correct score" - which improves the chances a little ALOT ! (Though they are still "small")
    OK. There are 36 group games, which can end in draws, and 15 knock out games that cannot. So:

    3^36 * 2^15

    Which - at a rate of 10 entries a second - would still take around 1,000,000,000,000 years to enter.
    Good luck sorting out that many unique email addresses before you start as well!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,394
    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    @SeanT
    Can I send you an email?

    tomknoxbooks@gmail.com
    if you squint at that address it looks like: Tom at Oxbooks; or Tom Bollox; or Tom Knox is a bollox commentator on Brexit.

    Or something.
    You should have gone to Specsavers :lol:
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,041
    tpfkar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    I was thinking of writing a little Python script that combined the electoral roll with every possible permutation of scores, so someone (somewhere) would win the 50 million.

    Then I realised that, assuming that for each game, each team could score between 0 and 5 goals, that there are 25 possible options for every game. 25^61 is spectacularly huge number: even if my script was able to enter 10 predictions a second, it would still take more than 100,000 years to submit all the possible results. And I think it's a fair bet their server would have run out of capacity before then. Not to mention that I might have missed the start of the tournament.
    It doesn't need "correct score" - which improves the chances a little ALOT ! (Though they are still "small")
    OK. There are 36 group games, which can end in draws, and 15 knock out games that cannot. So:

    3^36 * 2^15

    Which - at a rate of 10 entries a second - would still take around 1,000,000,000,000 years to enter.
    Good luck sorting out that many unique email addresses before you start as well!
    That's actually easy due to a clever gmail feature.

    Did you know that you can add things to your gmail address and they still get to you. So,

    rcs1000+asda@gmail.com and
    rcs1000+tesco@gmail.com both get to me

    So, you could simply have rcs1000+asasvcsdfswe@gmail.com, with the second part generated programatically.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,084
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    I was thinking of writing a little Python script that combined the electoral roll with every possible permutation of scores, so someone (somewhere) would win the 50 million.

    Then I realised that, assuming that for each game, each team could score between 0 and 5 goals, that there are 25 possible options for every game. 25^61 is spectacularly huge number: even if my script was able to enter 10 predictions a second, it would still take more than 100,000 years to submit all the possible results. And I think it's a fair bet their server would have run out of capacity before then. Not to mention that I might have missed the start of the tournament.
    It doesn't need "correct score" - which improves the chances a little ALOT ! (Though they are still "small")
    OK. There are 36 group games, which can end in draws, and 15 knock out games that cannot. So:

    3^36 * 2^15

    Which - at a rate of 10 entries a second - would still take around 1,000,000,000,000 years to enter.
    The Lloyds underwriter will have a hell of a shock if it cops mind :p
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,041
    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    I was thinking of writing a little Python script that combined the electoral roll with every possible permutation of scores, so someone (somewhere) would win the 50 million.

    Then I realised that, assuming that for each game, each team could score between 0 and 5 goals, that there are 25 possible options for every game. 25^61 is spectacularly huge number: even if my script was able to enter 10 predictions a second, it would still take more than 100,000 years to submit all the possible results. And I think it's a fair bet their server would have run out of capacity before then. Not to mention that I might have missed the start of the tournament.
    It doesn't need "correct score" - which improves the chances a little ALOT ! (Though they are still "small")
    OK. There are 36 group games, which can end in draws, and 15 knock out games that cannot. So:

    3^36 * 2^15

    Which - at a rate of 10 entries a second - would still take around 1,000,000,000,000 years to enter.
    The Lloyds underwriter will have a hell of a shock if it cops mind :p
    What do you think they paid for the insurance? 10k?
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    rcs1000 said:

    tpfkar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    I was thinking of writing a little Python script that combined the electoral roll with every possible permutation of scores, so someone (somewhere) would win the 50 million.

    Then I realised that, assuming that for each game, each team could score between 0 and 5 goals, that there are 25 possible options for every game. 25^61 is spectacularly huge number: even if my script was able to enter 10 predictions a second, it would still take more than 100,000 years to submit all the possible results. And I think it's a fair bet their server would have run out of capacity before then. Not to mention that I might have missed the start of the tournament.
    It doesn't need "correct score" - which improves the chances a little ALOT ! (Though they are still "small")
    OK. There are 36 group games, which can end in draws, and 15 knock out games that cannot. So:

    3^36 * 2^15

    Which - at a rate of 10 entries a second - would still take around 1,000,000,000,000 years to enter.
    Good luck sorting out that many unique email addresses before you start as well!
    That's actually easy due to a clever gmail feature.

    Did you know that you can add things to your gmail address and they still get to you. So,

    rcs1000+asda@gmail.com and
    rcs1000+tesco@gmail.com both get to me

    So, you could simply have rcs1000+asasvcsdfswe@gmail.com, with the second part generated programatically.

    You could reduce the number of possibilities by picking the (say) 50 million most likely results, based on the performance of the teams.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Only reason Remain can use £4,300 per family figure too.

    Let the campaign without sin cast the first stone.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,084
    edited May 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    I was thinking of writing a little Python script that combined the electoral roll with every possible permutation of scores, so someone (somewhere) would win the 50 million.

    Then I realised that, assuming that for each game, each team could score between 0 and 5 goals, that there are 25 possible options for every game. 25^61 is spectacularly huge number: even if my script was able to enter 10 predictions a second, it would still take more than 100,000 years to submit all the possible results. And I think it's a fair bet their server would have run out of capacity before then. Not to mention that I might have missed the start of the tournament.
    It doesn't need "correct score" - which improves the chances a little ALOT ! (Though they are still "small")
    OK. There are 36 group games, which can end in draws, and 15 knock out games that cannot. So:

    3^36 * 2^15

    Which - at a rate of 10 entries a second - would still take around 1,000,000,000,000 years to enter.
    The Lloyds underwriter will have a hell of a shock if it cops mind :p
    What do you think they paid for the insurance? 10k?
    Won't it have to be declared ?

    Easiest {insert figure} ever made :)
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    tpfkar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    I was thinking of writing a little Python script that combined the electoral roll with every possible permutation of scores, so someone (somewhere) would win the 50 million.

    Then I realised that, assuming that for each game, each team could score between 0 and 5 goals, that there are 25 possible options for every game. 25^61 is spectacularly huge number: even if my script was able to enter 10 predictions a second, it would still take more than 100,000 years to submit all the possible results. And I think it's a fair bet their server would have run out of capacity before then. Not to mention that I might have missed the start of the tournament.
    It doesn't need "correct score" - which improves the chances a little ALOT ! (Though they are still "small")
    OK. There are 36 group games, which can end in draws, and 15 knock out games that cannot. So:

    3^36 * 2^15

    Which - at a rate of 10 entries a second - would still take around 1,000,000,000,000 years to enter.
    Good luck sorting out that many unique email addresses before you start as well!
    I'm afraid you have to resolve teams ending on the same points in the group stages in order to determine who plays whom in the round of 16. Good luck with modelling that.




  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,612
    Northallerton by-elections:

    A strong showing from Yorkshire First. Keep that up and we'll have a Yindyref in a decade's time.

    As an aside, Northallerton is full of charity shops with good selections of second hand books - I've twice come away with almost too many to carry, and even managed to pick up something by a certain Mr Thomas.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,041

    rcs1000 said:

    tpfkar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    I was thinking of writing a little Python script that combined the electoral roll with every possible permutation of scores, so someone (somewhere) would win the 50 million.

    Then I realised that, assuming that for each game, each team could score between 0 and 5 goals, that there are 25 possible options for every game. 25^61 is spectacularly huge number: even if my script was able to enter 10 predictions a second, it would still take more than 100,000 years to submit all the possible results. And I think it's a fair bet their server would have run out of capacity before then. Not to mention that I might have missed the start of the tournament.
    It doesn't need "correct score" - which improves the chances a little ALOT ! (Though they are still "small")
    OK. There are 36 group games, which can end in draws, and 15 knock out games that cannot. So:

    3^36 * 2^15

    Which - at a rate of 10 entries a second - would still take around 1,000,000,000,000 years to enter.
    Good luck sorting out that many unique email addresses before you start as well!
    That's actually easy due to a clever gmail feature.

    Did you know that you can add things to your gmail address and they still get to you. So,

    rcs1000+asda@gmail.com and
    rcs1000+tesco@gmail.com both get to me

    So, you could simply have rcs1000+asasvcsdfswe@gmail.com, with the second part generated programatically.

    You could reduce the number of possibilities by picking the (say) 50 million most likely results, based on the performance of the teams.

    Hmmm... the problem is that it only take one freak result (Wales beating England, for example) to make the whole thing fall over.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,041
    Rexel56 said:

    tpfkar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    I was thinking of writing a little Python script that combined the electoral roll with every possible permutation of scores, so someone (somewhere) would win the 50 million.

    Then I realised that, assuming that for each game, each team could score between 0 and 5 goals, that there are 25 possible options for every game. 25^61 is spectacularly huge number: even if my script was able to enter 10 predictions a second, it would still take more than 100,000 years to submit all the possible results. And I think it's a fair bet their server would have run out of capacity before then. Not to mention that I might have missed the start of the tournament.
    It doesn't need "correct score" - which improves the chances a little ALOT ! (Though they are still "small")
    OK. There are 36 group games, which can end in draws, and 15 knock out games that cannot. So:

    3^36 * 2^15

    Which - at a rate of 10 entries a second - would still take around 1,000,000,000,000 years to enter.
    Good luck sorting out that many unique email addresses before you start as well!
    I'm afraid you have to resolve teams ending on the same points in the group stages in order to determine who plays whom in the round of 16. Good luck with modelling that.




    That's a standard four from six permutations problem, surely, so it could be added. But yes, that does mean there is another few orders of magnitude of possibility.
  • Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    I was thinking of writing a little Python script that combined the electoral roll with every possible permutation of scores, so someone (somewhere) would win the 50 million.

    Then I realised that, assuming that for each game, each team could score between 0 and 5 goals, that there are 25 possible options for every game. 25^61 is spectacularly huge number: even if my script was able to enter 10 predictions a second, it would still take more than 100,000 years to submit all the possible results. And I think it's a fair bet their server would have run out of capacity before then. Not to mention that I might have missed the start of the tournament.
    It doesn't need "correct score" - which improves the chances a little ALOT ! (Though they are still "small")
    Not quite. You only need to predict 51 games, not 61. In the first state, the teams are divided into 6 groups with matches in each group, 36 total. 16 teams then go forward to the knockout stages, playing 15 matches between them, for a total of 51 matches.

    However, which teams go through to the knockout stages can depend on the scores, if they're tied for points at the end of the group stage, so it is necessary to predict more than just who wins.

    For your amusement, my implausible entry, with England losing to Sweden in the quarter finals, and Spain beating Germany in the final.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,014

    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't get the enthusiasm from certain remainers here. Most people I know are looking forward to potentially voting remain with about as much enthusiasm as using a suppository after eating 50 hard boiled eggs.
    It's internecine. REMAINIACS on the right (and we're speaking mainly about the right) have loathed and feared the sceptics for decades (and vice versa). They will see a victory as a great advance, in that civil war, perhaps even a permanent triumph - and will hope to purge the party of the sceptics as a result. See articles by Matthew Parris, passim.

    Of course the traitorous pig-dogs of the REMAIN camp are completely deluded - they will be the ones suffering, if REMAIN wins - paradoxically - but that is what they think.

    Which won't happen.

    One of things (like Sean Fear) I'm taking away from this referendum is that people really don't like the EU. If all it does is just wakes people up to all the facts about how crap it really is to the UK, then that has value.

    It's perfectly clear the europhile Left of the party were trying to call the eurosceptic bluff with this referendum, win a 65-35 victory (or more) and close this issue down for decades.

    That isn't going to happen. Instead, they may have just let the genie out the bottle.

    Brexit was a fringe position even as recently as four years ago.
    If you are as sure as you seem to be, this should be a big payday for you.
    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/brexit-odds-live-updates-on-percentage-chance-of-uk-leaving-the-eu/
    From the article in the link:
    "The below is a live chart, which will update every time you revisit this page. It shows (at the time of writing) an 18 per cent chance of Leave."
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Nadal retires from the French Open with a wrist injury.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    rcs1000 said:

    Rexel56 said:

    tpfkar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    I was thinking of writing a little Python script that combined the electoral roll with every possible permutation of scores, so someone (somewhere) would win the 50 million.

    Then I realised that, assuming that for each game, each team could score between 0 and 5 goals, that there are 25 possible options for every game. 25^61 is spectacularly huge number: even if my script was able to enter 10 predictions a second, it would still take more than 100,000 years to submit all the possible results. And I think it's a fair bet their server would have run out of capacity before then. Not to mention that I might have missed the start of the tournament.
    It doesn't need "correct score" - which improves the chances a little ALOT ! (Though they are still "small")
    OK. There are 36 group games, which can end in draws, and 15 knock out games that cannot. So:

    3^36 * 2^15

    Which - at a rate of 10 entries a second - would still take around 1,000,000,000,000 years to enter.
    Good luck sorting out that many unique email addresses before you start as well!
    I'm afraid you have to resolve teams ending on the same points in the group stages in order to determine who plays whom in the round of 16. Good luck with modelling that.




    That's a standard four from six permutations problem, surely, so it could be added. But yes, that does mean there is another few orders of magnitude of possibility.
    Not to mention the fact that as soon as you won you would be ruled invalid.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,378
    Mr. W, hopefully that'll help your Thiem bet.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,006

    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't get the enthusiasm from certain remainers here. Most people I know are looking forward to potentially voting remain with about as much enthusiasm as using a suppository after eating 50 hard boiled eggs.
    It's internecine. REMAINIACS on the right (and we're speaking mainly about the right) have loathed and feared the sceptics for decades (and vice versa). They will see a victory as a great advance, in that civil war, perhaps even a permanent triumph - and will hope to purge the party of the sceptics as a result. See articles by Matthew Parris, passim.

    Of course the traitorous pig-dogs of the REMAIN camp are completely deluded - they will be the ones suffering, if REMAIN wins - paradoxically - but that is what they think.

    Which won't happen.

    One of things (like Sean Fear) I'm taking away from this referendum is that people really don't like the EU. If all it does is just wakes people up to all the facts about how crap it really is to the UK, then that has value.

    It's perfectly clear the europhile Left of the party were trying to call the eurosceptic bluff with this referendum, win a 65-35 victory (or more) and close this issue down for decades.

    That isn't going to happen. Instead, they may have just let the genie out the bottle.

    Brexit was a fringe position even as recently as four years ago.

    The referendum has got a lot of us thinking about the EU for the first time. Up until just a few months ago I thought I was going to sit it all out. But I found myself moving to Remain quite strongly when I began to consider the issues for the first time. Over the course of the campaign, though, and thanks in no small part to exchanges on here. I have drifted a lot more towards scepticism and the EU currently being the least worst option. I think that if EEA/EFTA were still a realistic option I might even be persuadable on Leave this time round. But that is not going to happen.

    At the very least, I'd say, a lot of us will be looking a lot more closely at developments inside the EU than we have in the past. If the other member states do as you believe they will and misread a vote to Remain I can see us being out within a relatively short period of time.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    JackW said:

    Nadal retires from the French Open with a wrist injury.

    Was he worried that he wouldn't be able to hold the required parts to pee into a cup?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090

    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't get the enthusiasm from certain remainers here. Most people I know are looking forward to potentially voting remain with about as much enthusiasm as using a suppository after eating 50 hard boiled eggs.
    It's internecine. REMAINIACS on the right (and we're speaking mainly about the right) have loathed and feared the sceptics for decades (and vice versa). They will see a victory as a great advance, in that civil war, perhaps even a permanent triumph - and will hope to purge the party of the sceptics as a result. See articles by Matthew Parris, passim.

    Of course the traitorous pig-dogs of the REMAIN camp are completely deluded - they will be the ones suffering, if REMAIN wins - paradoxically - but that is what they think.

    Which won't happen.

    One of things (like Sean Fear) I'm taking away from this referendum is that people really don't like the EU. If all it does is just wakes people up to all the facts about how crap it really is to the UK, then that has value.

    It's perfectly clear the europhile Left of the party were trying to call the eurosceptic bluff with this referendum, win a 65-35 victory (or more) and close this issue down for decades.

    That isn't going to happen. Instead, they may have just let the genie out the bottle.

    Brexit was a fringe position even as recently as four years ago.

    The referendum has got a lot of us thinking about the EU for the first time. Up until just a few months ago I thought I was going to sit it all out. But I found myself moving to Remain quite strongly when I began to consider the issues for the first time. Over the course of the campaign, though, and thanks in no small part to exchanges on here. I have drifted a lot more towards scepticism and the EU currently being the least worst option. I think that if EEA/EFTA were still a realistic option I might even be persuadable on Leave this time round. But that is not going to happen.

    At the very least, I'd say, a lot of us will be looking a lot more closely at developments inside the EU than we have in the past. If the other member states do as you believe they will and misread a vote to Remain I can see us being out within a relatively short period of time.

    That's a very interesting and fair post, SO.

    Thank you.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090

    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't get the enthusiasm from certain remainers here. Most people I know are looking forward to potentially voting remain with about as much enthusiasm as using a suppository after eating 50 hard boiled eggs.
    It's internecine. REMAINIACS on the right (and we're speaking mainly about the right) have loathed and feared the sceptics for decades (and vice versa). They will see a victory as a great advance, in that civil war, perhaps even a permanent triumph - and will hope to purge the party of the sceptics as a result. See articles by Matthew Parris, passim.

    Of course the traitorous pig-dogs of the REMAIN camp are completely deluded - they will be the ones suffering, if REMAIN wins - paradoxically - but that is what they think.

    Which won't happen.

    One of things (like Sean Fear) I'm taking away from this referendum is that people really don't like the EU. If all it does is just wakes people up to all the facts about how crap it really is to the UK, then that has value.

    It's perfectly clear the europhile Left of the party were trying to call the eurosceptic bluff with this referendum, win a 65-35 victory (or more) and close this issue down for decades.

    That isn't going to happen. Instead, they may have just let the genie out the bottle.

    Brexit was a fringe position even as recently as four years ago.
    If you are as sure as you seem to be, this should be a big payday for you.
    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/brexit-odds-live-updates-on-percentage-chance-of-uk-leaving-the-eu/
    From the article in the link:
    "The below is a live chart, which will update every time you revisit this page. It shows (at the time of writing) an 18 per cent chance of Leave."
    I think Remain will win (probably but not absolutely certainly) but not by 60%+

    I think it will be much closer. Could be wrong again, but I'm not seeing any evidence for a thumping victory. At all.

    I know for a fact Remainers thought Cam's deal would go down much better than they thought, that neithe Gove or Boris would split, that there'd be only 60-80 BOO'er MPs to deal with and that Remain would win by 65%+
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    So it was Poole where the lady had difficulties in findig a council house. A few years ago I remember a man chaining himself to the railings of the Poole Council main office. He had a wife and four children, living in his parent's home, while waiting on the council list. I believe up to a third of council houses in some areas are illegally sublet by tenants that have returned home.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,027
    With this and Mordant telling us we have no veto on Turkish entry Leave will have absolutely grounds for complaint now if they lose. They have forfeited any right to complain about anything Remain say. I suspect we are moving into pure fantasy-land from both sides for the last few weeks.

    I think Leave were always going to find it hard to deliver what they were promising but they are now making it very difficult for themselves. Aren't people immediately going to expect £50m more a day spent on the NHS as soon as we Brexit and going to feel cheated when it doesn't happen?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    rcs1000 said:

    tpfkar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well seeing as the £50 mill compo is free to enter, the expected return is at least positive, if small.

    https://www.50million.uk/Competition/Share/ad494015-e56f-414a-946a-6df3d908f5d9 is my entry !

    I was thinking of writing a little Python script that combined the electoral roll with every possible permutation of scores, so someone (somewhere) would win the 50 million.

    Then I realised that, assuming that for each game, each team could score between 0 and 5 goals, that there are 25 possible options for every game. 25^61 is spectacularly huge number: even if my script was able to enter 10 predictions a second, it would still take more than 100,000 years to submit all the possible results. And I think it's a fair bet their server would have run out of capacity before then. Not to mention that I might have missed the start of the tournament.
    It doesn't need "correct score" - which improves the chances a little ALOT ! (Though they are still "small")
    OK. There are 36 group games, which can end in draws, and 15 knock out games that cannot. So:

    3^36 * 2^15

    Which - at a rate of 10 entries a second - would still take around 1,000,000,000,000 years to enter.
    Good luck sorting out that many unique email addresses before you start as well!
    That's actually easy due to a clever gmail feature.

    Did you know that you can add things to your gmail address and they still get to you. So,

    rcs1000+asda@gmail.com and
    rcs1000+tesco@gmail.com both get to me

    So, you could simply have rcs1000+asasvcsdfswe@gmail.com, with the second part generated programatically.

    You could reduce the number of possibilities by picking the (say) 50 million most likely results, based on the performance of the teams.

    That brings back old memories.

    One of the first computer programs I wrote with my Dad, 40 odd years ago was an attempt to predict football pools results based on past team performance. We spent days coding, and entering data from past team performance. Over the next ten weeks we performed less well than my grandparents who were regular pools players, and in many cases worse than sticking a pin in the page blindfolded. Happy days ;)
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Mr. W, hopefully that'll help your Thiem bet.

    Indeed.

    Thiem's route to the semi-final has opened up considerably. This has been a very profitable tournament so far and with the Nishikori/Verdasco match going all the way today ensuring Mrs JackW is well shod for the summer .... :smile:
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited May 2016
    PAW said:

    So it was Poole where the lady had difficulties in findig a council house. A few years ago I remember a man chaining himself to the railings of the Poole Council main office. He had a wife and four children, living in his parent's home, while waiting on the council list. I believe up to a third of council houses in some areas are illegally sublet by tenants that have returned home.

    It was Slough where a year or two ago there were huge compaints that immigrants were "jumping" the queue as members of the public were findings that whole rows of council houses were all being lived in by immigrants.

    When the media investigated it was overwhelming illegal subletting and basically the council just shrugged their shoulders and went well we don't have time to investigate. The thing was that not only were they subletting, but they were illegally subletting as HOMs and basically letting each room to a family, so 3-4 families in one family home.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,913
    The Treasury Select Committee report pulls no punches and accuses both sides of false claims including the prospect of 3 million lost jobs on leave, but they reserve the highest criticism for leave's claim of 350 million a week saving which is untrue and misleading. Apparently the ONS is most critical and believes it should not be used. Bit difficult with it all over Boris's bus but leave need to clarify the figure which is 8.5 billion per annum, not even 10 billion as some on leave quote
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098


    The referendum has got a lot of us thinking about the EU for the first time. Up until just a few months ago I thought I was going to sit it all out. But I found myself moving to Remain quite strongly when I began to consider the issues for the first time. Over the course of the campaign, though, and thanks in no small part to exchanges on here. I have drifted a lot more towards scepticism and the EU currently being the least worst option. I think that if EEA/EFTA were still a realistic option I might even be persuadable on Leave this time round. But that is not going to happen.

    At the very least, I'd say, a lot of us will be looking a lot more closely at developments inside the EU than we have in the past. If the other member states do as you believe they will and misread a vote to Remain I can see us being out within a relatively short period of time.

    I really don't think that is going to happen, Mr. Observer. Just look at the people/organisations lined up to keep us in - ain't one of them that gives a toss about the ordinary member of the public, the Gillian Duffy's of this world. They were hornswaggled into having this referendum and are, I believe, jolly cross at Cameron for getting them into this mess. I very much doubt that we will be allowed a second go a few years down the line, if ever.

    If all that is keeping you from voting leave now is uncertainty as to whether we will go for a EEA/EFTA option or a bespoke deal, and a deal there will certainly be (we are too big and too important a market for there not to be one) then isn't that an argument to be had once the basic decision has been made. No one can predict exactly what will be negotiated by the people doing the negotiation will be the civil service, all the players that are in post now, and the present Conservative government, plus or minus one or two individuals (who will have to get their negotiated deal through the commons and the Lords). I am not sure I like it but that is just me and it seems a very low risk option from where I sit.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,041
    OllyT said:

    With this and Mordant telling us we have no veto on Turkish entry Leave will have absolutely grounds for complaint now if they lose. They have forfeited any right to complain about anything Remain say. I suspect we are moving into pure fantasy-land from both sides for the last few weeks.

    I think Leave were always going to find it hard to deliver what they were promising but they are now making it very difficult for themselves. Aren't people immediately going to expect £50m more a day spent on the NHS as soon as we Brexit and going to feel cheated when it doesn't happen?

    There is no excuse for lying from either side. As it happens, I think Penny Mordant was simply mistaken, rather than lying.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,006

    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't get the enthusiasm from certain remainers here. Most people I know are looking forward to potentially voting remain with about as much enthusiasm as using a suppository after eating 50 hard boiled eggs.
    It's internecine. REMAINIACS on the right (and we're speaking mainly about the right) have passim.

    Of course the traitorous pig-dogs of the REMAIN camp are completely deluded - they will be the ones suffering, if REMAIN wins - paradoxically - but that is what they think.

    Which won't happen.

    One of things (like Sean Fear) value.

    It's perfectly clear the europhile Left of the party were trying to call the eurosceptic bluff with this referendum, win a 65-35 victory (or more) and close this issue down for decades.

    That isn't going to happen. Instead, they may have just let the genie out the bottle.

    Brexit was a fringe position even as recently as four years ago.

    The referendum has got a lot of us thinking about the EU for the first time. Up until just a few months ago I thought I was going to sit it all out. But I found myself moving to Remain quite strongly when I began to consider the issues for the first time. Over the course of the campaign, though, and thanks in no small part to exchanges on here. I have drifted a lot more towards scepticism and the EU currently being the least worst option. I think that if EEA/EFTA were still a realistic option I might even be persuadable on Leave this time round. But that is not going to happen.

    At the very least, I'd say, a lot of us will be looking a lot more closely at developments inside the EU than we have in the past. If the other member states do as you believe they will and misread a vote to Remain I can see us being out within a relatively short period of time.

    That's a very interesting and fair post, SO.

    Thank you.

    I don't want to sound like a dick, but I do think you have been an absolute star on this site over the last few weeks. We've all lost our tempers now and again, but you have really helped me to frame my thinking and have challenged me. MaxPB is another, as are RCS, Richard Tyndall. Sean Fear and Alanbrooke. It's been a real education. Whatever happens next month I am grateful for that.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,913
    rcs1000 said:

    OllyT said:

    With this and Mordant telling us we have no veto on Turkish entry Leave will have absolutely grounds for complaint now if they lose. They have forfeited any right to complain about anything Remain say. I suspect we are moving into pure fantasy-land from both sides for the last few weeks.

    I think Leave were always going to find it hard to deliver what they were promising but they are now making it very difficult for themselves. Aren't people immediately going to expect £50m more a day spent on the NHS as soon as we Brexit and going to feel cheated when it doesn't happen?

    There is no excuse for lying from either side. As it happens, I think Penny Mordant was simply mistaken, rather than lying.
    Worse, I think she did not know
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    The Treasury Select Committee report pulls no punches and accuses both sides of false claims including the prospect of 3 million lost jobs on leave, but they reserve the highest criticism for leave's claim of 350 million a week saving which is untrue and misleading. Apparently the ONS is most critical and believes it should not be used. Bit difficult with it all over Boris's bus but leave need to clarify the figure which is 8.5 billion per annum, not even 10 billion as some on leave quote

    Only if Remain clarify that World War 3 won't actually break out in the event of a Leave vote, neither will the economy plunge worse than it did in World War 2, and there won't be any refugee camps in Kent. I am sure there are others but that will do to be going on with.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    That's a pity, Root out for 80...another couple hours of him being in and he would have taken the game away from Sri Lanka.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,041

    PAW said:

    So it was Poole where the lady had difficulties in findig a council house. A few years ago I remember a man chaining himself to the railings of the Poole Council main office. He had a wife and four children, living in his parent's home, while waiting on the council list. I believe up to a third of council houses in some areas are illegally sublet by tenants that have returned home.

    It was Slough where a year or two ago there were huge compaints that immigrants were "jumping" the queue as members of the public were findings that whole rows of council houses were all being lived in by immigrants.

    When the media investigated it was overwhelming illegal subletting and basically the council just shrugged their shoulders and went well we don't have time to investigate. The thing was that not only were they subletting, but they were illegally subletting as HOMs and basically letting each room to a family, so 3-4 families in one family home.
    Surely subletting a council house is (a) against the terms of the lease, and (b) almost certainly resulting in undeclared income (a criminal offence).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,041
    Indigo said:

    The Treasury Select Committee report pulls no punches and accuses both sides of false claims including the prospect of 3 million lost jobs on leave, but they reserve the highest criticism for leave's claim of 350 million a week saving which is untrue and misleading. Apparently the ONS is most critical and believes it should not be used. Bit difficult with it all over Boris's bus but leave need to clarify the figure which is 8.5 billion per annum, not even 10 billion as some on leave quote

    Only if Remain clarify that World War 3 won't actually break out in the event of a Leave vote, neither will the economy plunge worse than it did in World War 2, and there won't be any refugee camps in Kent. I am sure there are others but that will do to be going on with.
    Did our economy plunge in WW2?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    rcs1000 said:

    PAW said:

    So it was Poole where the lady had difficulties in findig a council house. A few years ago I remember a man chaining himself to the railings of the Poole Council main office. He had a wife and four children, living in his parent's home, while waiting on the council list. I believe up to a third of council houses in some areas are illegally sublet by tenants that have returned home.

    It was Slough where a year or two ago there were huge compaints that immigrants were "jumping" the queue as members of the public were findings that whole rows of council houses were all being lived in by immigrants.

    When the media investigated it was overwhelming illegal subletting and basically the council just shrugged their shoulders and went well we don't have time to investigate. The thing was that not only were they subletting, but they were illegally subletting as HOMs and basically letting each room to a family, so 3-4 families in one family home.
    Surely subletting a council house is (a) against the terms of the lease, and (b) almost certainly resulting in undeclared income (a criminal offence).
    I agree, but on the other side they face being called RAAACCCIISSTT if they actually try and do anything about it. Its just the Rotherham dynamic in play on a less unpleasant issue.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,913

    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't get the enthusiasm from certain remainers here. Most people I know are looking forward to potentially voting remain with about as much enthusiasm as using a suppository after eating 50 hard boiled eggs.
    It's internecine. REMAINIACS on the right (and we're speaking mainly about the right) have loathed and feared the sceptics for decades (and vice versa). They will see a victory as a great advance, in that civil war, perhaps even a permanent triumph - and will hope to purge the party of the sceptics as a result. See articles by Matthew Parris, passim.

    Of course the traitorous pig-dogs of the REMAIN camp are completely deluded - they will be the ones suffering, if REMAIN wins - paradoxically - but that is what they think.

    Which won't happen.

    One of things (like Sean Fear) I'm taking away from this referendum is that people really don't like the EU. If all it does is just wakes people up to all the facts about how crap it really is to the UK, then that has value.

    It's perfectly clear the europhile Left of the party were trying to call the eurosceptic bluff with this referendum, win a 65-35 victory (or more) and close this issue down for decades.

    That isn't going to happen. Instead, they may have just let the genie out the bottle.

    Brexit was a fringe position even as recently as four years ago.

    The referendum has got a lot of us thinking about the EU for the first time. Up until just a few months ago I thought I was going to sit it all out. But I found myself moving to Remain quite strongly when I began to consider the issues for the first time. Over the course of the campaign, though, and thanks in no small part to exchanges on here. I have drifted a lot more towards scepticism and the EU currently being the least worst option. I think that if EEA/EFTA were still a realistic option I might even be persuadable on Leave this time round. But that is not going to happen.

    At the very least, I'd say, a lot of us will be looking a lot more closely at developments inside the EU than we have in the past. If the other member states do as you believe they will and misread a vote to Remain I can see us being out within a relatively short period of time.

    Exactly my thoughts and why I believe on a remain vote a hardline eurosceptic needs to go to Brussels and would suggest David Cameron makes Boris the Minister for Europe. It would be the best of both worlds, remain but really irritate Juncker's and the eurocrates
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    rcs1000 said:

    PAW said:

    So it was Poole where the lady had difficulties in findig a council house. A few years ago I remember a man chaining himself to the railings of the Poole Council main office. He had a wife and four children, living in his parent's home, while waiting on the council list. I believe up to a third of council houses in some areas are illegally sublet by tenants that have returned home.

    It was Slough where a year or two ago there were huge compaints that immigrants were "jumping" the queue as members of the public were findings that whole rows of council houses were all being lived in by immigrants.

    When the media investigated it was overwhelming illegal subletting and basically the council just shrugged their shoulders and went well we don't have time to investigate. The thing was that not only were they subletting, but they were illegally subletting as HOMs and basically letting each room to a family, so 3-4 families in one family home.
    Surely subletting a council house is (a) against the terms of the lease, and (b) almost certainly resulting in undeclared income (a criminal offence).
    Yeap....but the council just shrugged their shoulders...and mumbled about cuts and lack of resources to check up on these things.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,617

    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't get the enthusiasm from certain remainers here. Most people I know are looking forward to potentially voting remain with about as much enthusiasm as using a suppository after eating 50 hard boiled eggs.
    It's internecine. REMAINIACS on the right (and we're speaking mainly about the right) have loathed and feared the sceptics for decades (and vice versa). They will see a victory as a great advance, in that civil war, perhaps even a permanent triumph - and will hope to purge the party of the sceptics as a result. See articles by Matthew Parris, passim.

    Of course the traitorous pig-dogs of the REMAIN camp are completely deluded - they will be the ones suffering, if REMAIN wins - paradoxically - but that is what they think.

    Which won't happen.

    One of things (like Sean Fear) I'm taking away from this referendum is that people really don't like the EU. If all it does is just wakes people up to all the facts about how crap it really is to the UK, then that has value.

    It's perfectly clear the europhile Left of the party were trying to call the eurosceptic bluff with this referendum, win a 65-35 victory (or more) and close this issue down for decades.

    That isn't going to happen. Instead, they may have just let the genie out the bottle.

    Brexit was a fringe position even as recently as four years ago.

    The referendum has got a lot of us thinking about the EU for the first time. Up until just a few months ago I thought I was going to sit it all out. But I found myself moving to Remain quite strongly when I began to consider the issues for the first time. Over the course of the campaign, though, and thanks in no small part to exchanges on here. I have drifted a lot more towards scepticism and the EU currently being the least worst option. I think that if EEA/EFTA were still a realistic option I might even be persuadable on Leave this time round. But that is not going to happen.

    At the very least, I'd say, a lot of us will be looking a lot more closely at developments inside the EU than we have in the past. If the other member states do as you believe they will and misread a vote to Remain I can see us being out within a relatively short period of time.

    I had dinner the other day with a friend who knows such things, and he tells me (@robert also pls note) that apparently the EU has made it clear that the Norway EEA/EFTA option is not on the cards. The reasoning being that for an economy the size of the UK it would be ludicrous to have it in such satellite/dependency status.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,913
    Indigo said:

    The Treasury Select Committee report pulls no punches and accuses both sides of false claims including the prospect of 3 million lost jobs on leave, but they reserve the highest criticism for leave's claim of 350 million a week saving which is untrue and misleading. Apparently the ONS is most critical and believes it should not be used. Bit difficult with it all over Boris's bus but leave need to clarify the figure which is 8.5 billion per annum, not even 10 billion as some on leave quote

    Only if Remain clarify that World War 3 won't actually break out in the event of a Leave vote, neither will the economy plunge worse than it did in World War 2, and there won't be any refugee camps in Kent. I am sure there are others but that will do to be going on with.
    World war 3 was invented by the media but the important point is that it was Andrew Tyrie explaining his report and the 350 million was the Committee's biggest concern
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Mr. Royale, whilst I agree with you on lack of enthusiasm, don't count your chickens yet. A 60/40 Remain win remains [ahem] eminently possible.

    The most (domestically) important development in the campaigns so far has been the destruction of Cameron's position as a relatively trusted, unifying figure within the Conservative Party.

    It's all very well winning a war, but if you piss off your own side so much they want to re-enact Caesar's death then one's strategy is flawed.

    Morris , I agree .
    Michael Portillo said last night , that from all he knew about David Cameron if he was not PM ,he would voting to leave.
    Both Cameron and Hague have surprised me with strong support for remain, with no balance on their previous positions.
    I believe one should be open to change your opinion if the facts have changed.
    However it is hard to understand what has changed so fundamentally apart from they are in or have been in control of the foreign office.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    Moeen Ali needs to show a bit of quality here.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,913
    Yorkcity said:

    Mr. Royale, whilst I agree with you on lack of enthusiasm, don't count your chickens yet. A 60/40 Remain win remains [ahem] eminently possible.

    The most (domestically) important development in the campaigns so far has been the destruction of Cameron's position as a relatively trusted, unifying figure within the Conservative Party.

    It's all very well winning a war, but if you piss off your own side so much they want to re-enact Caesar's death then one's strategy is flawed.

    Morris , I agree .
    Michael Portillo said last night , that from all he knew about David Cameron if he was not PM ,he would voting to leave.
    Both Cameron and Hague have surprised me with strong support for remain, with no balance on their previous positions.
    I believe one should be open to change your opinion if the facts have changed.
    However it is hard to understand what has changed so fundamentally apart from they are in or have been in control of the foreign office.
    David Cameron always plays to win and that is why the Conservative party are in power
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    The Treasury Select Committee report pulls no punches and accuses both sides of false claims including the prospect of 3 million lost jobs on leave, but they reserve the highest criticism for leave's claim of 350 million a week saving which is untrue and misleading. Apparently the ONS is most critical and believes it should not be used. Bit difficult with it all over Boris's bus but leave need to clarify the figure which is 8.5 billion per annum, not even 10 billion as some on leave quote

    Only if Remain clarify that World War 3 won't actually break out in the event of a Leave vote, neither will the economy plunge worse than it did in World War 2, and there won't be any refugee camps in Kent. I am sure there are others but that will do to be going on with.
    Did our economy plunge in WW2?
    Maybe I mean WW1... the point stands.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNdzuZo-efk
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,476
    I'm in full agreement with Mike's assessment - it's a very silly own goal from Vote Leave.

    The only silver lining is that as you say £150million does sound like a lot, so it's unlikely that Remain will want to make a huge deal out of it. Focussing the argument on exactly how many hundreds of millions the EU costs us is unlikely to be something they want to dwell on.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098



    Exactly my thoughts and why I believe on a remain vote a hardline eurosceptic needs to go to Brussels and would suggest David Cameron makes Boris the Minister for Europe. It would be the best of both worlds, remain but really irritate Juncker's and the eurocrates

    Oh, really? Firstly Boris could not negotiate the skin off a rice pudding. Secondly, even if he could, what you are advocating is a UK sitting on the sidelines bleating - and that strategy has worked out well so far hasn't it.

    FFS, fellows if you don't like the EU, just vote to leave. All these schemes about how we could reform it within or just bugger it up have already been tried and they have failed If you don't like the direction the EU is going in, just vote leave There really isn't a third way..
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,476
    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    The Treasury Select Committee report pulls no punches and accuses both sides of false claims including the prospect of 3 million lost jobs on leave, but they reserve the highest criticism for leave's claim of 350 million a week saving which is untrue and misleading. Apparently the ONS is most critical and believes it should not be used. Bit difficult with it all over Boris's bus but leave need to clarify the figure which is 8.5 billion per annum, not even 10 billion as some on leave quote

    Only if Remain clarify that World War 3 won't actually break out in the event of a Leave vote, neither will the economy plunge worse than it did in World War 2, and there won't be any refugee camps in Kent. I am sure there are others but that will do to be going on with.
    Did our economy plunge in WW2?
    We were paupered in WW2 whilst the US got nice and fat on it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,041
    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:



    I don't get the enthusiasm from certain remainers here. Most people I know are looking forward to potentially voting remain with about as much enthusiasm as using a suppository after eating 50 hard boiled eggs.

    It's internecine. REMAINIACS on the right (and we're speaking mainly about the right) have loathed and feared the sceptics for decades (and vice versa). They will see a victory as a great advance, in that civil war, perhaps even a permanent triumph - and will hope to purge the party of the sceptics as a result. See articles by Matthew Parris, passim.

    Of course the traitorous pig-dogs of the REMAIN camp are completely deluded - they will be the ones suffering, if REMAIN wins - paradoxically - but that is what they think.

    Which won't happen.

    One of things (like Sean Fear) I'm taking away from this referendum is that people really don't like the EU. If all it does is just wakes people up to all the facts about how crap it really is to the UK, then that has value.

    It's perfectly clear the europhile Left of the party were trying to call the eurosceptic bluff with this referendum, win a 65-35 victory (or more) and close this issue down for decades.

    That isn't going to happen. Instead, they may have just let the genie out the bottle.

    Brexit was a fringe position even as recently as four years ago.

    The referendum has got a lot of us thinking about the EU for the first time. Up until just a few months ago I thought I was going to sit it all out. But I found myself moving to Remain quite strongly when I began to consider the issues for the first time. Over the course of the campaign, though, and thanks in no small part to exchanges on here. I have drifted a lot more towards scepticism and the EU currently being the least worst option. I think that if EEA/EFTA were still a realistic option I might even be persuadable on Leave this time round. But that is not going to happen.

    At the very least, I'd say, a lot of us will be looking a lot more closely at developments inside the EU than we have in the past. If the other member states do as you believe they will and misread a vote to Remain I can see us being out within a relatively short period of time.

    I had dinner the other day with a friend who knows such things, and he tells me (@robert also pls note) that apparently the EU has made it clear that the Norway EEA/EFTA option is not on the cards. The reasoning being that for an economy the size of the UK it would be ludicrous to have it in such satellite/dependency status.
    I don't believe that our membership of EFTA would need the blessing of the EU.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,913

    I'm in full agreement with Mike's assessment - it's a very silly own goal from Vote Leave.

    The only silver lining is that as you say £150million does sound like a lot, so it's unlikely that Remain will want to make a huge deal out of it. Focussing the argument on exactly how many hundreds of millions the EU costs us is unlikely to be something they want to dwell on.

    I have no doubt remain will repeat the misleading nature of the bus advert ad infinitum and you can bet it gets a reality check in all the debates. It was a very unnecessary own goal
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:



    I don't get the enthusiasm from certain remainers here. Most people I know are looking forward to potentially voting remain with about as much enthusiasm as using a suppository after eating 50 hard boiled eggs.

    It's internecine. REMAINIACS on the right (and we're speaking mainly about the right) have loathed and feared the sceptics for decades (and vice versa). They will see a victory as a great advance, in that civil war, perhaps even a permanent triumph - and will hope to purge the party of the sceptics as a result. See articles by Matthew Parris, passim.

    Of course the traitorous pig-dogs of the REMAIN camp are completely deluded - they will be the ones suffering, if REMAIN wins - paradoxically - but that is what they think.

    Which won't happen.

    One of things (like Sean Fear) I'm taking away from this referendum is that people really don't like the EU. If all it does is just wakes people up to all the facts about how crap it really is to the UK, then that has value.

    It's perfectly clear the europhile Left of the party were trying to call the eurosceptic bluff with this referendum, win a 65-35 victory (or more) and close this issue down for decades.

    That isn't going to happen. Instead, they may have just let the genie out the bottle.

    Brexit was a fringe position even as recently as four years ago.

    The referendum has got a lot of us thinking about the EU for the first time. Up until just a few months ago I thought I was going to sit it all out. But I found myself moving to Remain quite strongly when I began to consider the issues for the first time. Over the course of the campaign, though, and thanks in no small part to exchanges on here. I have drifted a lot more towards scepticism and the EU currently being the least worst option. I think that if EEA/EFTA were still a realistic option I might even be persuadable on Leave this time round. But that is not going to happen.

    At the very least, I'd say, a lot of us will be looking a lot more closely at developments inside the EU than we have in the past. If the other member states do as you believe they will and misread a vote to Remain I can see us being out within a relatively short period of time.

    I had dinner the other day with a friend who knows such things, and he tells me (@robert also pls note) that apparently the EU has made it clear that the Norway EEA/EFTA option is not on the cards. The reasoning being that for an economy the size of the UK it would be ludicrous to have it in such satellite/dependency status.
    I don't believe that our membership of EFTA would need the blessing of the EU.
    It does not.
This discussion has been closed.