Could you even conceive that an economy unshackled from the EU could operate in a more enterprising manner than being inside the EU? Are you an entrepreneur?
Yes and Yes.
We are talking here, though, about the short-to-medium term hit, which is largely unrelated to what the long-term picture will be. Quite apart from anything else, entrepreneurs, investors, big business, and consumers won't know what the long-term picture is likely to be for at least two years.
Mark Easton doing a good job at trying to guilt trip elderly leavers into voting remain. Getting a youngster to say that they're going to live longer so they should have more of a say is a disgrace.
That was the same argument 40 years ago I seem to recollect..
so all those youngsters who wanted to stay in now want to get out
They have the benefit of experiencing the evolution of the EEC over the intervening 40 years.
I was 14 at the time and would have voted in ( my parents voted out ). My parents were correct.
There's something quite patronising about the Remain campaign that takes people for fools and presumes to think they're not intelligent people capable of forming their own judgment.
Guess we'll find out by 24th June.
I've been thinking about how people will vote in EuroRef.
I think some Labourites will go with party loyalty, some Tories will go with Cameron loyalty and some will go with luvvie loyalty, hence the bizarre endorsements for Remain.
I don't think ordinary voters pay as much attention to the issues as posters here, but I am encouraged by Nick Palmer's reports of voters wishing to know more. In this light, I think the more transparent lies told by either campaign will come back to haunt them. And the more relentlessly those lies are pushed the more chance of voters twigging they are being taken for fools.
I can't remember who on PB said it, but the tactics used by Remain belong in the last week of a by-election, not with a month to go in a national election.
Hayley Barlow @Hayley_Barlow Nottinghamshire Police obtain 12-month extension to investigate @Anna_Soubry and @Mark_Spencer #electionexpenses. http://po.st/zRibZv Photo published for Police given extension to investigate two Nottinghamshire MPs over expenses fraud accusation
Could you even conceive that an economy unshackled from the EU could operate in a more enterprising manner than being inside the EU? Are you an entrepreneur?
Yes and Yes.
We are talking here, though, about the short-to-medium term hit, which is largely unrelated to what the long-term picture will be. Quite apart from anything else, entrepreneurs, investors, big business, and consumers won't know what the long-term picture is likely to be for at least two years.
@faisalislam: 296 declared serious economists in Brexit debate All here - Leave on pg 4: current score 284 -8 to Remain: https://t.co/DRZDKGsDLV
Are there unserious ones ? Do they tell jokes and dress up in clown uniforms and call themselves George ?
Or is it more here's some economists who want to stay in ?
Gawd. Remain can't even reach par Thatcher.
They are in trouble.
It gets more complicated than that.
These are "declared" serious economists. How does that work ?
I get the economist bit, you sit a degree and pass. But then it appears there are two further stages firstly you get split in to serious and "having a laugh" categories. And then the serious ones have a ceremony of declaration. Presumably they get an owl and a book on gravitas and swear never to tell jokes for the rest of their lives.
But then what happens the unserious ones or the serious ones who don't manage to get declared serious ? We need more research.
Mark Easton doing a good job at trying to guilt trip elderly leavers into voting remain. Getting a youngster to say that they're going to live longer so they should have more of a say is a disgrace.
That was the same argument 40 years ago I seem to recollect..
so all those youngsters who wanted to stay in now want to get out
They have the benefit of experiencing the evolution of the EEC over the intervening 40 years.
I was 14 at the time and would have voted in ( my parents voted out ). My parents were correct.
Two years (at least) of business uncertainty = big economic hit.
That's basically all there is to it; no-one really knows how big it will be.
Or how little or even no effect at all. Well, It's as accurate a statement as you just made.
No, there will certainly be a significant negative effect in the short to medium term ( a couple of years). That's just about the one thing we can say with great confidence. It's hardly a controversial point: of course businesses and investors will hold off investing in the UK whilst they wait to see how things pan out, and consumers will also be cautious.
In the most optimistic scenario, most of that lost investment/spending will just be deferred, not lost for ever. If we are lucky.
Mmmm.....Hold of investing in the 5th biggest world economy.
Well It's a view I suppose.
Come off it, I'm hardly saying anything surprising.
I really can't get my head around the blind faith of Leavers that almost every single expert in the world, as well as simple common sense, are wrong. It's just extraordinary.
Still, the good news is that no-one can possibly claim voters weren't warned.
Hayley Barlow @Hayley_Barlow Nottinghamshire Police obtain 12-month extension to investigate @Anna_Soubry and @Mark_Spencer #electionexpenses. http://po.st/zRibZv Photo published for Police given extension to investigate two Nottinghamshire MPs over expenses fraud accusation
Interesting.
Nick, I've said this before, I think Anna Soubrey us great etc. etc. and so on.
However you sir, are a loss to parliament.
Edit As in you losing your seat was a loss to parliament.
Mark Easton doing a good job at trying to guilt trip elderly leavers into voting remain. Getting a youngster to say that they're going to live longer so they should have more of a say is a disgrace.
That was the same argument 40 years ago I seem to recollect..
so all those youngsters who wanted to stay in now want to get out
They have the benefit of experiencing the evolution of the EEC over the intervening 40 years.
I was 14 at the time and would have voted in ( my parents voted out ). My parents were correct.
I blame the BBC, Valerie Singleton corrupted me.
In your dreams.
subsequent events would have shown us to be mismatched :-)
'Two years (at least) of business uncertainty = big economic hit.
That's basically all there is to it; no-one really knows how big it will be.'
Perfect description of current Euro zone chaos.
Two years? The Eurozone has been in crisis for years. The mass migration into this country as acted a pressure release valve for Spain, Italy and France.
When was the last time their finances were signed off by auditors? I seem to recollect 21 years but perhaps I am being a tad unfair and it's only 20
Hmmm... A raving Green or a raving Fascist. Not the sort of choice you would wish on your worst enemy really is it?
Anyone who still thinks that Cameron is anything other than seriously smart should reflect on how urgently he has tried to push this vote through right now. There are at least 3 wheels looking wobbly on the EU wagon right now and in a year remaining part of such a dysfunctional arrangement would be pretty much unsellable.
We are not alone in being disgusted with the whole arrogant, snivelling, self serving political class and sooner rather than later some of those wheels will spin away. Personally, I would rather not be on board when that happens. But let's keep pretending leave is the risky option.
I wonder how RumpEU will fill the coffers if we leave?
That's the only economic shock I can see at present and I suspect so do they. As regards a recession we will get one with bells on either way and nothing to do with the EU. Normal cycle innit...?
Indeed. They will be in a complete pickle.
Gaps in budget contributions, exporters priced out of their 2nd biggest economy according to forecasts of collapsing sterling and trade tariffs, demands for UK style democracy.
Two years (at least) of business uncertainty = big economic hit.
That's basically all there is to it; no-one really knows how big it will be.
Or how little or even no effect at all. Well, It's as accurate a statement as you just made.
No, there will certainly be a significant negative effect in the short to medium term ( a couple of years). That's just about the one thing we can say with great confidence. It's hardly a controversial point: of course businesses and investors will hold off investing in the UK whilst they wait to see how things pan out, and consumers will also be cautious.
In the most optimistic scenario, most of that lost investment/spending will just be deferred, not lost for ever. If we are lucky.
Getting the excuses in early for the next slowdown/recession... Blame it all on the referendum.
You can be sure that the Tories aka Dave and George will blame any bad figures on "the uncertainty " of the referendum. Should keep them going through the next recession at least.
Hayley Barlow @Hayley_Barlow Nottinghamshire Police obtain 12-month extension to investigate @Anna_Soubry and @Mark_Spencer #electionexpenses. http://po.st/zRibZv Photo published for Police given extension to investigate two Nottinghamshire MPs over expenses fraud accusation
Interesting.
Nick, I've said this before, I think Anna Soubrey us great etc. etc. and so on.
However you sir, are a loss to parliament.
Edit As in you losing your seat was a loss to parliament.
Isn't the conclusion of all this that all the major parties have been using national battle buses in an irregular fashion (or in the case of SNP, a helicopter)?
It is the lack of balance and equal time Nick. One example on Sunday was Pienaar's politics on R5. He had 35 minutes for two Labour REMAIN people Izzard and Burnham. Then later 3 mins for Kwarteng a Conservative LEAVE MP.
Yes, I agree they should be balanced - but the way the message that I responded to was phrased suggesting that it was disgraceful and intimidating that such a view be reported at all. The balance could be to find someone to say that he thought more weight should be given to older people who have the necessary historical perspective, or some such, but I'm not sure if anyone is actually saying that.
The way the BBC (and others) say they attempt to create balance is by having balanced imbalance - one programme might have half an hour on X and only 10 minutes on not-X, but the next day they'd do the reverse. They say that giving equal time in every programme is just boring and turns viewers off. So one has to watch a series of programmes to judge if the overall effect is biased.
There's an additional problem if one side is more heavyweight that the other - e.g. what Cameron says is more newsworthy than what you or I say, so if we get into an argument with Cameron, should they give equal time to us, or less because we're not the PM? Does that apply to all subjects, e.g. should ISIS have equal time to someone attacking ISIS? It's not altogether easy, though I agree they have an institutional bias to what they see as mainstream views.
Hmmm... A raving Green or a raving Fascist. Not the sort of choice you would wish on your worst enemy really is it?
Anyone who still thinks that Cameron is anything other than seriously smart should reflect on how urgently he has tried to push this vote through right now. There are at least 3 wheels looking wobbly on the EU wagon right now and in a year remaining part of such a dysfunctional arrangement would be pretty much unsellable.
We are not alone in being disgusted with the whole arrogant, snivelling, self serving political class and sooner rather than later some of those wheels will spin away. Personally, I would rather not be on board when that happens. But let's keep pretending leave is the risky option.
. A raving Green or a raving Fascist
wasn't that the last Conservative leadership election ? :-)
'Two years (at least) of business uncertainty = big economic hit.
That's basically all there is to it; no-one really knows how big it will be.'
Perfect description of current Euro zone chaos.
Two years? The Eurozone has been in crisis for years. The mass migration into this country as acted a pressure release valve for Spain, Italy and France.
Indeed so. That doesn't seem to me to be a compelling reason to plunge our economy into the doldrums.
But the reasons why the eurozone has been in crisis are because of the economic decline and stagnation that many of its members have had which are out of line with the global economy (excluding raw material producers). The root cause of this is with the systems and regulations that they operate under including the rigidity of the currency for countries that need a cut in its rate. The Eurozone and the EU needs reform that favours enterprise and there is just no real hope that its "leaders" and bureaucrats grasp that need for change in that way.
Is nunu "the medisa always underestimate the right, Hofer will win" around?
Close but no cigar. There's nothing like a far-right candidate for mobilising the low-turnout left.
Lol. I said scratch that comment after the "prophet" said RodCrosby's model predicted the green guy would win. Anyhoo have you met a leaver in islington yet?
Yes, reported truthfully that I'd found 20% were voting Leave. Preople got quite excited!
The more I look at Brexit from a European perspective, the more ominous it looks for them.
An appreciating Euro against sterling coupled with Remain's threatened trade tariff war will hammer EU exporters.
In the case of Brexit, I'd expect both Sterling and the Euro to decline against the dollar, the former by 5-10%, and the latter by 3-5%. Also, think it's pretty unlikely that tariffs would be imposed on physical goods between the EU and the UK - not least because there are a lot of cross border supply chains, particularly in the automobile industry, that would be absolutely hammered in the event of the introduction of tariffs.
It's not uncommon to see electronics going from the UK to a clutch sub supplier in Spain, being shipped back to the UK for assembly into an engine, before being shipped back to Belgium to be put in a finished car.
If there were multiple applications of tariffs, we'd simply end up being cut out of the supply chain. Which would be pretty shit.
@faisalislam: 296 declared serious economists in Brexit debate All here - Leave on pg 4: current score 284 -8 to Remain: https://t.co/DRZDKGsDLV
Are there unserious ones ? Do they tell jokes and dress up in clown uniforms and call themselves George ?
Or is it more here's some economists who want to stay in ?
Gawd. Remain can't even reach par Thatcher.
They are in trouble.
It gets more complicated than that.
These are "declared" serious economists. How does that work ?
I get the economist bit, you sit a degree and pass. But then it appears there are two further stages firstly you get split in to serious and "having a laugh" categories. And then the serious ones have a ceremony of declaration. Presumably they get an owl and a book on gravitas and swear never to tell jokes for the rest of their lives.
But then what happens the unserious ones or the serious ones who don't manage to get declared serious ? We need more research.
Well.....If they were labour supporters they would get a fecking owl that's for sure!
yebbut Dave did PPE. The E stands for economics.
Ive never seen Dave declared as a serious economist. I suspect he's one of the taking the piss category. And this is the guy who's meant to be in charge. If Dave was serious he would have been on Scott Pasters list and he wasn't.
Ergo the whole remain campaign is based on shaky numbers. Chuckles Cameron is just making it up and buying whoopee cushions for the nation.
Crystal ball gazing mostly I reckon. You still might be onto something here regarding serious economists.
There are serious economists and the other type are "stand up" economists? Perhaps they only give their views to the unwashed at the Apollo theatre.
Hmmm... A raving Green or a raving Fascist. Not the sort of choice you would wish on your worst enemy really is it?
Anyone who still thinks that Cameron is anything other than seriously smart should reflect on how urgently he has tried to push this vote through right now. There are at least 3 wheels looking wobbly on the EU wagon right now and in a year remaining part of such a dysfunctional arrangement would be pretty much unsellable.
We are not alone in being disgusted with the whole arrogant, snivelling, self serving political class and sooner rather than later some of those wheels will spin away. Personally, I would rather not be on board when that happens. But let's keep pretending leave is the risky option.
. A raving Green or a raving Fascist
wasn't that the last Conservative leadership election ? :-)
Nah, they were just playing at it. These guys are for real.
Hayley Barlow @Hayley_Barlow Nottinghamshire Police obtain 12-month extension to investigate @Anna_Soubry and @Mark_Spencer #electionexpenses. http://po.st/zRibZv Photo published for Police given extension to investigate two Nottinghamshire MPs over expenses fraud accusation
Interesting.
Nick, I've said this before, I think Anna Soubrey us great etc. etc. and so on.
However you sir, are a loss to parliament.
Edit As in you losing your seat was a loss to parliament.
Isn't the conclusion of all this that all the major parties have been using national battle buses in an irregular fashion (or in the case of SNP, a helicopter)?
It is. We would either have to rerun the election or clarify the rules.
We could set a new election date if we leave but that would be bonkers as the uncertainty caused would collapse the markets.
The more I look at Brexit from a European perspective, the more ominous it looks for them.
An appreciating Euro against sterling coupled with Remain's threatened trade tariff war will hammer EU exporters.
In the case of Brexit, I'd expect both Sterling and the Euro to decline against the dollar, the former by 5-10%, and the latter by 3-5%. Also, think it's pretty unlikely that tariffs would be imposed on physical goods between the EU and the UK - not least because there are a lot of cross border supply chains, particularly in the automobile industry, that would be absolutely hammered in the event of the introduction of tariffs.
It's not uncommon to see electronics going from the UK to a clutch sub supplier in Spain, being shipped back to the UK for assembly into an engine, before being shipped back to Belgium to be put in a finished car.
If there were multiple applications of tariffs, we'd simply end up being cut out of the supply chain. Which would be pretty shit.
A car consists of about 300,000 individual components.
Good luck to anyone who thinks they can unpick that supply chain in a hurry.
It is the lack of balance and equal time Nick. One example on Sunday was Pienaar's politics on R5. He had 35 minutes for two Labour REMAIN people Izzard and Burnham. Then later 3 mins for Kwarteng a Conservative LEAVE MP.
The way the BBC (and others) say they attempt to create balance is by having balanced imbalance - one programme might have half an hour on X and only 10 minutes on not-X, but the next day they'd do the reverse. They say that giving equal time in every programme is just boring and turns viewers off. So one has to watch a series of programmes to judge if the overall effect is biased.
If there was balance then the BBC would have a spreadsheet somewhere recording all the minutes aired listed by each view. It would be a published document open to all to see.
For a period of 3 months of "paper reviews" I analysed the Marr Show reviewers. The ratio of know lefties vs known righties in those reviews was 3:1 in favour of lefties. The complaint to the BBC of course went no where. Ofcom, thank goodness, will eventually have that responsibility.
Mark Easton doing a good job at trying to guilt trip elderly leavers into voting remain. Getting a youngster to say that they're going to live longer so they should have more of a say is a disgrace.
Why is that a disgrace? You don't like it, that's ok. But like "shameful" it seems a much overused word.
Does it need practice to come across as a simpleton or is it something that comes naturally to you?
when you can manage originality I'll upgrade you from village idiot. Do make sure your mother turns your light off tonight.
'Two years (at least) of business uncertainty = big economic hit.
That's basically all there is to it; no-one really knows how big it will be.'
Perfect description of current Euro zone chaos.
Two years? The Eurozone has been in crisis for years. The mass migration into this country as acted a pressure release valve for Spain, Italy and France.
Indeed so. That doesn't seem to me to be a compelling reason to plunge our economy into the doldrums.
"Plunge our economy into the doldrums" oh FFS give us a break.
You have no idea that's going to happen. It's a scare, project fear. Why are you so frightened of an exit. You infer that you were patriotic below but you constantly talk the UK down and promote that we could not possibly survive in the big nasty old world with being shackled to the dead decaying corpse of the EU.
You will be saying au pairs will lose their jobs next . (Ok ... Ok scratch that one sorry forgot , George has already done that one hasn't he?)
The more I look at Brexit from a European perspective, the more ominous it looks for them.
An appreciating Euro against sterling coupled with Remain's threatened trade tariff war will hammer EU exporters.
In the case of Brexit, I'd expect both Sterling and the Euro to decline against the dollar, the former by 5-10%, and the latter by 3-5%. Also, think it's pretty unlikely that tariffs would be imposed on physical goods between the EU and the UK - not least because there are a lot of cross border supply chains, particularly in the automobile industry, that would be absolutely hammered in the event of the introduction of tariffs.
It's not uncommon to see electronics going from the UK to a clutch sub supplier in Spain, being shipped back to the UK for assembly into an engine, before being shipped back to Belgium to be put in a finished car.
If there were multiple applications of tariffs, we'd simply end up being cut out of the supply chain. Which would be pretty shit.
A car consists of about 300,000 individual components.
Good luck to anyone who thinks they can unpick that supply chain in a hurry.
In which case they have to sign a free trade deal or collapse their car industry.
Just be VI'd by You Gov. Put myself down as Leave and 10/10 to vote.
Did it not go up to 11?
Unfortunately not. As an aside, hearing the stuff about Osborne today and that wonderful B&Q lady reminds me of an anecdote that I was telling @Pulpstar at the last drinks do about Osborne.
Executive summary: Germans are much more sceptical about the quality of politicians than they used to be, and a majority think that they should do what the public wants rather than follow their own view of what's best. On the other hand, they don't favour radical solutions (AfD supporters differ markedly in that) and the proportion who think that politicians don't think about ordinary people has declined. Most people think that parties should compromise to make progress, except for AfD supporters, who narrowly disagree.
In general, the impression is that AfD supporters are qualitatively different (and hence that there may be a ceilintg to their support), but also that they've not invented the dissatisfaction with the establishment as a new phenomenon, but rather given it a vehicle for expression.
In the case of Brexit, I'd expect both Sterling and the Euro to decline against the dollar, the former by 5-10%, and the latter by 3-5%. Also, think it's pretty unlikely that tariffs would be imposed on physical goods between the EU and the UK - not least because there are a lot of cross border supply chains, particularly in the automobile industry, that would be absolutely hammered in the event of the introduction of tariffs.
It's not uncommon to see electronics going from the UK to a clutch sub supplier in Spain, being shipped back to the UK for assembly into an engine, before being shipped back to Belgium to be put in a finished car.
If there were multiple applications of tariffs, we'd simply end up being cut out of the supply chain. Which would be pretty shit.
I am inclined to agree, but I am imagining the Project Doom version that is being painted for the public.
A very quick calculation shows that a UK produced Jaguar XE goes from being more expensive than a German BMW2 series car to being cheaper in a sterling collapse scenario.
Two years (at least) of business uncertainty = big economic hit.
That's basically all there is to it; no-one really knows how big it will be.
Or how little or even no effect at all. Well, It's as accurate a statement as you just made.
No, there will certainly be a significant negative effect in the short to medium term ( a couple of years). That's just about the one thing we can say with great confidence. It's hardly a controversial point: of course businesses and investors will hold off investing in the UK whilst they wait to see how things pan out, and consumers will also be cautious.
In the most optimistic scenario, most of that lost investment/spending will just be deferred, not lost for ever. If we are lucky.
Mmmm.....Hold of investing in the 5th biggest world economy.
Well It's a view I suppose.
Come off it, I'm hardly saying anything surprising.
I really can't get my head around the blind faith of Leavers that almost every single expert in the world, as well as simple common sense, are wrong. It's just extraordinary.
Still, the good news is that no-one can possibly claim voters weren't warned.
Warned of what? You still push the threat, project fear, you actually just can't help yourself can you. All negative. Jeez get a backbone man.
Anyhoosee When you win which you will of course, When do I get to vote on who is the president (s) of this great European order.
Mark Easton doing a good job at trying to guilt trip elderly leavers into voting remain. Getting a youngster to say that they're going to live longer so they should have more of a say is a disgrace.
That was the same argument 40 years ago I seem to recollect..
so all those youngsters who wanted to stay in now want to get out
They have the benefit of experiencing the evolution of the EEC over the intervening 40 years.
I was 14 at the time and would have voted in ( my parents voted out ). My parents were correct.
I blame the BBC, Valerie Singleton corrupted me.
I was 17 and persuaded my mother to vote to remain in the EEC, against her better judgement. I have yet to be forgiven.
I convinced her the EEC was only about trade and that Benn and Powell were talking throught their hats with their talk of the end of the UK as an independent nation.
@faisalislam: 296 declared serious economists in Brexit debate All here - Leave on pg 4: current score 284 -8 to Remain: https://t.co/DRZDKGsDLV
Are there unserious ones ? Do they tell jokes and dress up in clown uniforms and call themselves George ?
Or is it more here's some economists who want to stay in ?
Gawd. Remain can't even reach par Thatcher.
They are in trouble.
It gets more complicated than that.
These are "declared" serious economists. How does that work ?
I get the economist bit, you sit a degree and pass. But then it appears there are two further stages firstly you get split in to serious and "having a laugh" categories. And then the serious ones have a ceremony of declaration. Presumably they get an owl and a book on gravitas and swear never to tell jokes for the rest of their lives.
But then what happens the unserious ones or the serious ones who don't manage to get declared serious ? We need more research.
Well.....If they were labour supporters they would get a fecking owl that's for sure!
yebbut Dave did PPE. The E stands for economics.
Ive never seen Dave declared as a serious economist. I suspect he's one of the taking the piss category. And this is the guy who's meant to be in charge. If Dave was serious he would have been on Scott Pasters list and he wasn't.
Ergo the whole remain campaign is based on shaky numbers. Chuckles Cameron is just making it up and buying whoopee cushions for the nation.
Crystal ball gazing mostly I reckon. You still might be onto something here regarding serious economists.
There are serious economists and the other type are "stand up" economists? Perhaps they only give their views to the unwashed at the Apollo theatre.
Stand up economists include
Bob Bankhouse Penny Hill Laugher Curve Gordon Neoendogenousgrowththeory
I really can't get my head around the blind faith of Leavers that almost every single expert in the world, as well as simple common sense, are wrong. It's just extraordinary.
Still, the good news is that no-one can possibly claim voters weren't warned.
Thing is we've heard it all before. We heard it about the ERM... The disaster that would befall us after we exited the ERM was the excuse Major used to double interest rates and create a repossession crisis across Middle England.
We heard it again about the Euro. All the dire warnings that if we didn't join the Euro we'd be some "isolated" backward country with an economy in the slow lane.
Time and again we've had warnings of impending disaster from europhiles and time and again europhiles have been proven completely and utterly wrong.
The cupboards bare and nobody believes a word of the "establishment" anymore.
project fear tryin to scare me to stay like an abusive partner trying to get me paranoid saying "life will be much harder" but I just smile at their lies givin me so much laughter they better watch out cos' we bout to go harder
Mark Easton doing a good job at trying to guilt trip elderly leavers into voting remain. Getting a youngster to say that they're going to live longer so they should have more of a say is a disgrace.
You think the BBC is neutral in this??
Well, obviously not. I'm just about to write a complaint to them. We've discussed this topic before and come up with lots of ideas for different franchises and perhaps one day things will change. But right now the system is one person one vote for those aged over 18. For the BBC to have someone putting across the view that they're opinion matters more because of age is a disgrace. It is tantamount to trying to intimidate older voters.
Eh? It's simply a point of view which people are free to agree with or not. It's not disgraceful for the BBC to include someone with that viewpoint - are you saying such views should be suppressed?
If someone on the Question Time Panel tried to make the case for the oldies voting Remain for the sake of the young, then I don't think there's much that the BBC can do about it. I would hope in such circumstances that a Leaver on the panel would strongly rebut that argument.
However, I do not like the BBC editing a report to include such an argument. It does not sit easily with me that an argument is being made to older voters that they should feel guilty about having a vote. It is disgraceful. And it would have been equally disgraceful if the same case was made in the Scottish Independence referendum (I can't recall it happening, but it wouldn't surprise me).
Mark Easton doing a good job at trying to guilt trip elderly leavers into voting remain. Getting a youngster to say that they're going to live longer so they should have more of a say is a disgrace.
That was the same argument 40 years ago I seem to recollect..
so all those youngsters who wanted to stay in now want to get out
They have the benefit of experiencing the evolution of the EEC over the intervening 40 years.
I was 14 at the time and would have voted in ( my parents voted out ). My parents were correct.
I blame the BBC, Valerie Singleton corrupted me.
Any Blue Peter fan that doesn't vote remain will have their Blue Peter badge taken away or if you preferred the other team you will get your crackerjack pencil replaced with a cabbage.
(Might just be going back to far for some on that one )
The more I look at Brexit from a European perspective, the more ominous it looks for them.
An appreciating Euro against sterling coupled with Remain's threatened trade tariff war will hammer EU exporters.
In the case of Brexit, I'd expect both Sterling and the Euro to decline against the dollar, the former by 5-10%, and the latter by 3-5%. Also, think it's pretty unlikely that tariffs would be imposed on physical goods between the EU and the UK - not least because there are a lot of cross border supply chains, particularly in the automobile industry, that would be absolutely hammered in the event of the introduction of tariffs.
It's not uncommon to see electronics going from the UK to a clutch sub supplier in Spain, being shipped back to the UK for assembly into an engine, before being shipped back to Belgium to be put in a finished car.
If there were multiple applications of tariffs, we'd simply end up being cut out of the supply chain. Which would be pretty shit.
A car consists of about 300,000 individual components.
Good luck to anyone who thinks they can unpick that supply chain in a hurry.
Which is why I don't think there will be tariffs on physical goods between the UK and the EU in the case of Brexit.
I really can't get my head around the blind faith of Leavers that almost every single expert in the world, as well as simple common sense, are wrong. It's just extraordinary.
Still, the good news is that no-one can possibly claim voters weren't warned.
Thing is we've heard it all before. We heard it about the ERM... The disaster that would befall us after we exited the ERM was the excuse Major used to double interest rates and create a repossession crisis across Middle England.
We heard it again about the Euro. All the dire warnings that if we didn't join the Euro we'd be some "isolated" backward country with an economy in the slow lane.
Time and again we've had warnings of impending disaster from europhiles and time and again europhiles have been proven completely and utterly wrong.
The cupboards bare and nobody believes a word of the "establishment" anymore.
I think that's just part of it. The more recent history where they missed the recession, screwed up immigration, invaded Iraq on false pretences sort of leaves a huge credibility gap where the man from the ministry appears not to have a clue..
I really can't get my head around the blind faith of Leavers that almost every single expert in the world, as well as simple common sense, are wrong. It's just extraordinary.
Still, the good news is that no-one can possibly claim voters weren't warned.
Thing is we've heard it all before. We heard it about the ERM... The disaster that would befall us after we exited the ERM was the excuse Major used to double interest rates and create a repossession crisis across Middle England.
We heard it again about the Euro. All the dire warnings that if we didn't join the Euro we'd be some "isolated" backward country with an economy in the slow lane.
Time and again we've had warnings of impending disaster from europhiles and time and again europhiles have been proven completely and utterly wrong.
The cupboards bare and nobody believes a word of the "establishment" anymore.
I think that's just part of it. The more recent history where they missed the recession, screwed up immigration, invaded Iraq on false pretences sort of leaves a huge credibility gap where the man from the ministry appears not to have a clue..
That's true... This anti-establishment mood has been coming since Iraq - The Crash really cemented it - No wonder Cameron wants to shelve Chicot until after the referendum....
I don't think it can be coincidental that the decade of mass immigration has also seen a fall in real earnings, productivity stagnation and disintegration of the public finances.
Liberal Democrats Retweeted Team #INtogether @LDINtogether Today Shirley Williams slammed the #EUref campaign for shutting women out. @LibDems women are strongly #INtogether!
Just wondering why bar staff always insist on shouting out your room number across a very crowded bar when you have already discreetly shown them your room card to charge it to the room?
To continue further with the economic effects of the mass immigration of the past decade. ...... I don't think it can be coincidental that the decade of mass immigration has also seen a fall in real earnings, productivity stagnation and disintegration of the public finances.
What happens when people do not understand what GDP per capita means.
I don't think it can be coincidental that the decade of mass immigration has also seen a fall in real earnings, productivity stagnation and disintegration of the public finances.
The problem with that analysis is that *all* the developed world, whether there had been mass immigration or not, has seen similar stagnation.
I don't think it can be coincidental that the decade of mass immigration has also seen a fall in real earnings, productivity stagnation and disintegration of the public finances.
Did anything happen a year or two after 2006 that had an effect on the economy?
Gary Gibbons of C4 News saying that today is the last big day for Govt pr for REMAIN...
Nope. There will be lots of carefully choreographed PR over the next four weeks.
One is the final IMF report to be published days before the vote, neatly sidestepping purdah.
We know what it'll say: End Of Days.
Yes - but Purdah kicks in - the Treasury report could not have been issued during Purdah.
HMG will get their message out each and every week through their many allies.
Technically it cannot involve civil servants on HMG payroll. Hence why the Govt head of comms is being seconded to REMAIN. But we should see a more disjointed effort as REMAIN's non Govt folk have had very little to do up to now.
But in response - and appropriate in light also of the Austrian result - you may find this interesting (posted in 2 parts because of length).
PART ONE
“A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.
‘Very few people were true Nazis,’ he said, ‘but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.’
We are told again and again by ‘experts’ and ‘talking heads’ that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.
The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.
The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the ’silent majority,’ is cowed and extraneous. Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.. China’s huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.
The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And who can forget Rwanda , which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were ‘peace loving’?
History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because like my friend from Germany , they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts–the fanatics who threaten our way of life.”
Most of the general public know this, all across the world, but our politicians are in denial and offer only appeasement.
Like the silent Muslims, we remain silent and acquiescent, while our freedoms gradually disappear."
Or as our very own Edmund Burke put it: "For evil to triumph all it takes is for good men to do nothing."
To continue further with the economic effects of the mass immigration of the past decade. ...... I don't think it can be coincidental that the decade of mass immigration has also seen a fall in real earnings, productivity stagnation and disintegration of the public finances.
What happens when people do not understand what GDP per capita means.
I think George et al care about GDP not real people.
I really can't get my head around the blind faith of Leavers that almost every single expert in the world, as well as simple common sense, are wrong. It's just extraordinary.
Still, the good news is that no-one can possibly claim voters weren't warned.
Thing is we've heard it all before. We heard it about the ERM... The disaster that would befall us after we exited the ERM was the excuse Major used to double interest rates and create a repossession crisis across Middle England.
We heard it again about the Euro. All the dire warnings that if we didn't join the Euro we'd be some "isolated" backward country with an economy in the slow lane.
Time and again we've had warnings of impending disaster from europhiles and time and again europhiles have been proven completely and utterly wrong.
The cupboards bare and nobody believes a word of the "establishment" anymore.
I think that's just part of it. The more recent history where they missed the recession, screwed up immigration, invaded Iraq on false pretences sort of leaves a huge credibility gap where the man from the ministry appears not to have a clue..
The banks are the best in the world There will not be a recession in 2008 Politicians expenses are honest Stafford hospital is safe (ditto many others) Nothing is happening in Rotherham (ditto many others) Elections in Tower Hamlets are fair Kids Company is a deserving charity Jimmy Savile is a wonderful man (ditto many others) There will be no more than 10-15,000 immigrants from Eastern Europe Saddam Hussein has WMD
'Two years (at least) of business uncertainty = big economic hit.
That's basically all there is to it; no-one really knows how big it will be.'
Perfect description of current Euro zone chaos.
Two years? The Eurozone has been in crisis for years. The mass migration into this country as acted a pressure release valve for Spain, Italy and France.
Indeed so. That doesn't seem to me to be a compelling reason to plunge our economy into the doldrums.
But nor is it a compelling argument against taking a decision which I consider to be in my country's interest.
0.8% off economic growth (according to NIESR) or 8% off house prices (according to George Osborne) is small beer.
The major difference between most Muslims and others is that Muslims pray several times a day. And that's it.
But there is a hard minority of extremists that aren't challenged as much as they should be, and other types (common to all demographics) that play the race/religion card and get away with it [as per Rotherham] or have useful idiots refuse to even consider such things in the name of political sensitivity.
Edited extra bit: also, we should have a revolution, turf out Cameron, and install Miss Cyclefree as dictatrix.
I don't think it can be coincidental that the decade of mass immigration has also seen a fall in real earnings, productivity stagnation and disintegration of the public finances.
Did anything happen a year or two after 2006 that had an effect on the economy?
Are you saying that was the only recession Britain has ever had ?
'Two years (at least) of business uncertainty = big economic hit.
That's basically all there is to it; no-one really knows how big it will be.'
Perfect description of current Euro zone chaos.
Two years? The Eurozone has been in crisis for years. The mass migration into this country as acted a pressure release valve for Spain, Italy and France.
Indeed so. That doesn't seem to me to be a compelling reason to plunge our economy into the doldrums.
But nor is it a compelling argument against taking a decision which I consider to be in my country's interest.
0.8% off economic growth (according to NIESR) or 8% off house prices (according to George Osborne) is small beer.
I think the difference is you can buy nabavi but not a Sean.
Could you even conceive that an economy unshackled from the EU could operate in a more enterprising manner than being inside the EU? Are you an entrepreneur?
Yes and Yes.
We are talking here, though, about the short-to-medium term hit, which is largely unrelated to what the long-term picture will be. Quite apart from anything else, entrepreneurs, investors, big business, and consumers won't know what the long-term picture is likely to be for at least two years.
To be honest, I don't think any of those ever know what the long-term picture looks like on any major issue. Unexpected change is the one common thing in life that makes me roll my eyes at any economic forecast.
To continue further with the economic effects of the mass immigration of the past decade. ...... I don't think it can be coincidental that the decade of mass immigration has also seen a fall in real earnings, productivity stagnation and disintegration of the public finances.
What happens when people do not understand what GDP per capita means.
Someone gets executed even though they are innocent?
'Two years (at least) of business uncertainty = big economic hit.
That's basically all there is to it; no-one really knows how big it will be.'
Perfect description of current Euro zone chaos.
Two years? The Eurozone has been in crisis for years. The mass migration into this country as acted a pressure release valve for Spain, Italy and France.
Indeed so. That doesn't seem to me to be a compelling reason to plunge our economy into the doldrums.
But nor is it a compelling argument against taking a decision which I consider to be in my country's interest.
0.8% off economic growth (according to NIESR) or 8% off house prices (according to George Osborne) is small beer.
It's a decision for decades, not for 24 months.
By the way, Boris hasn't written a half-bad article here:
I don't think it can be coincidental that the decade of mass immigration has also seen a fall in real earnings, productivity stagnation and disintegration of the public finances.
Did anything happen a year or two after 2006 that had an effect on the economy?
Are you saying that was the only recession Britain has ever had ?
You lose.
You're not arguing in good faith now.
One could just as easily say that David Cameron caused the 2006-2016 figures to be so much worse.
But did you notice anything unusually bad, worse than the start of the 1990s, say, around 2008?
I don't think it can be coincidental that the decade of mass immigration has also seen a fall in real earnings, productivity stagnation and disintegration of the public finances.
The problem with that analysis is that *all* the developed world, whether there had been mass immigration or not, has seen similar stagnation.
Yet we're told that mass immigration has been such an incredible benefit for the UK economy.
The evidence shows that it isn't.
Now if you're saying that there's been a fundamental shift towards low growth in the developed world I think I would agree with you.
But in that case all the long term economic plans are worse than worthless and there needs to be an acceptance that there will not be enough future wealth to meet all the government promises and people's expectations.
It would also mean that government borrowing (ie stealing wealth from the future) to fund consumption is even more reprehensible.
Comments
One is the final IMF report to be published days before the vote, neatly sidestepping purdah.
We know what it'll say: End Of Days.
We are talking here, though, about the short-to-medium term hit, which is largely unrelated to what the long-term picture will be. Quite apart from anything else, entrepreneurs, investors, big business, and consumers won't know what the long-term picture is likely to be for at least two years.
Economists are notoriously inaccurate. I'd be more concerned at those who consider Treasury forecasts to be other than propaganda, to be honest.
An appreciating Euro against sterling coupled with Remain's threatened trade tariff war will hammer EU exporters.
I blame the BBC, Valerie Singleton corrupted me.
People never cease to surprise me.
http://news.sky.com/story/1700769/so-whats-fishy-about-treasury-brexit-report
So... if that gets wide currency George will be pleased.
Risk and reward go together.
What would good-faith LEAVErs have done if they were running the REMAIN campaign instead? What would the polls look like?
What would good-faith REMAINders have done if they were running the LEAVE campaign?
Just watch me. :-)
However you sir, are a loss to parliament.
Edit As in you losing your seat was a loss to parliament.
Put myself down as Leave and 10/10 to vote.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2012
If I had used that as a parody a month ago the hardcore Leavers would have been outraged at my trolling.
Anyone who still thinks that Cameron is anything other than seriously smart should reflect on how urgently he has tried to push this vote through right now. There are at least 3 wheels looking wobbly on the EU wagon right now and in a year remaining part of such a dysfunctional arrangement would be pretty much unsellable.
We are not alone in being disgusted with the whole arrogant, snivelling, self serving political class and sooner rather than later some of those wheels will spin away. Personally, I would rather not be on board when that happens. But let's keep pretending leave is the risky option.
Gaps in budget contributions, exporters priced out of their 2nd biggest economy according to forecasts of collapsing sterling and trade tariffs, demands for UK style democracy.
It looks pretty bad for them.
The way the BBC (and others) say they attempt to create balance is by having balanced imbalance - one programme might have half an hour on X and only 10 minutes on not-X, but the next day they'd do the reverse. They say that giving equal time in every programme is just boring and turns viewers off. So one has to watch a series of programmes to judge if the overall effect is biased.
There's an additional problem if one side is more heavyweight that the other - e.g. what Cameron says is more newsworthy than what you or I say, so if we get into an argument with Cameron, should they give equal time to us, or less because we're not the PM? Does that apply to all subjects, e.g. should ISIS have equal time to someone attacking ISIS? It's not altogether easy, though I agree they have an institutional bias to what they see as mainstream views.
wasn't that the last Conservative leadership election ? :-)
It's not uncommon to see electronics going from the UK to a clutch sub supplier in Spain, being shipped back to the UK for assembly into an engine, before being shipped back to Belgium to be put in a finished car.
If there were multiple applications of tariffs, we'd simply end up being cut out of the supply chain. Which would be pretty shit.
There are serious economists and the other type are "stand up" economists? Perhaps they only give their views to the unwashed at the Apollo theatre.
https://twitter.com/xtophercook/status/734778172005310468
We could set a new election date if we leave but that would be bonkers as the uncertainty caused would collapse the markets.
Good luck to anyone who thinks they can unpick that supply chain in a hurry.
As someone astutely pointed out today should purdah start at the point of postal vote issue.
For a period of 3 months of "paper reviews" I analysed the Marr Show reviewers. The ratio of know lefties vs known righties in those reviews was 3:1 in favour of lefties. The complaint to the BBC of course went no where. Ofcom, thank goodness, will eventually have that responsibility.
[The Britain First policy, rather than you considering seeking office].
You have no idea that's going to happen. It's a scare, project fear. Why are you so frightened of an exit. You infer that you were patriotic below but you constantly talk the UK down and promote that we could not possibly survive in the big nasty old world with being shackled to the dead decaying corpse of the EU.
You will be saying au pairs will lose their jobs next .
(Ok ... Ok scratch that one sorry forgot , George has already done that one hasn't he?)
That is all.
As an aside, hearing the stuff about Osborne today and that wonderful B&Q lady reminds me of an anecdote that I was telling @Pulpstar at the last drinks do about Osborne.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/das-weltbild-der-wutbuerger-und-wie-populismus-deutschland-bestimmt-14237988.html
Executive summary: Germans are much more sceptical about the quality of politicians than they used to be, and a majority think that they should do what the public wants rather than follow their own view of what's best. On the other hand, they don't favour radical solutions (AfD supporters differ markedly in that) and the proportion who think that politicians don't think about ordinary people has declined. Most people think that parties should compromise to make progress, except for AfD supporters, who narrowly disagree.
In general, the impression is that AfD supporters are qualitatively different (and hence that there may be a ceilintg to their support), but also that they've not invented the dissatisfaction with the establishment as a new phenomenon, but rather given it a vehicle for expression.
A very quick calculation shows that a UK produced Jaguar XE goes from being more expensive than a German BMW2 series car to being cheaper in a sterling collapse scenario.
Anyhoosee
When you win which you will of course, When do I get to vote on who is the president (s) of this great European order.
Oh my bad, I forgot I don't get a vote do I.
I convinced her the EEC was only about trade and that Benn and Powell were talking throught their hats with their talk of the end of the UK as an independent nation.
Bob Bankhouse
Penny Hill
Laugher Curve
Gordon Neoendogenousgrowththeory
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/12/vast-majority-young-arabs-isis-shunning-poll
We heard it again about the Euro. All the dire warnings that if we didn't join the Euro we'd be some "isolated" backward country with an economy in the slow lane.
Time and again we've had warnings of impending disaster from europhiles and time and again europhiles have been proven completely and utterly wrong.
The cupboards bare and nobody believes a word of the "establishment" anymore.
trying to get me paranoid saying "life will be much harder"
but I just smile at their lies givin me so much laughter
they better watch out cos' we bout to go harder
However, I do not like the BBC editing a report to include such an argument. It does not sit easily with me that an argument is being made to older voters that they should feel guilty about having a vote. It is disgraceful. And it would have been equally disgraceful if the same case was made in the Scottish Independence referendum (I can't recall it happening, but it wouldn't surprise me).
(Might just be going back to far for some on that one )
Clinton 46 .. Trump 46
Note - ARG ..
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/polls/arg-24535
Average annual real earnings (earnings less RPI) increase:
1976q1-1986q1 2.1%
1986q1-1996q1 2.2%
1996q1-2006q1 2.0%
2006q1-2016q1 -0.8% ie a reduction
Average annual increase in productivity per hour (2016q1 data not yet available):
1975q4-1985q4 3.0%
1985q4-1995q4 2.4%
1995q4-2005q4 2.5%
2006q4-2015q4 0.3%
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/labourproductivity/timeseries/lzvb
Government debt percentage of GDP:
1976q1 56.5%
1986q1 41.7%
1996q1 39.2%
2006q1 35.4%
2016q1 83.5%
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/timeseries/hf6x
I don't think it can be coincidental that the decade of mass immigration has also seen a fall in real earnings, productivity stagnation and disintegration of the public finances.
Liberal Democrats Retweeted
Team #INtogether @LDINtogether
Today Shirley Williams slammed the #EUref campaign for shutting women out. @LibDems women are strongly #INtogether!
There are so many things wrong with the lurid green GO use.
But in response - and appropriate in light also of the Austrian result - you may find this interesting (posted in 2 parts because of length).
PART ONE
“A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.
‘Very few people were true Nazis,’ he said, ‘but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.’
We are told again and again by ‘experts’ and ‘talking heads’ that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.
The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.
The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the ’silent majority,’ is cowed and extraneous. Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.. China’s huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.
The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.
And who can forget Rwanda , which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were ‘peace loving’?
History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because like my friend from Germany , they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts–the fanatics who threaten our way of life.”
Most of the general public know this, all across the world, but our politicians are in denial and offer only appeasement.
Like the silent Muslims, we remain silent and acquiescent, while our freedoms gradually disappear."
Or as our very own Edmund Burke put it: "For evil to triumph all it takes is for good men to do nothing."
There will not be a recession in 2008
Politicians expenses are honest
Stafford hospital is safe (ditto many others)
Nothing is happening in Rotherham (ditto many others)
Elections in Tower Hamlets are fair
Kids Company is a deserving charity
Jimmy Savile is a wonderful man (ditto many others)
There will be no more than 10-15,000 immigrants from Eastern Europe
Saddam Hussein has WMD
0.8% off economic growth (according to NIESR) or 8% off house prices (according to George Osborne) is small beer.
The major difference between most Muslims and others is that Muslims pray several times a day. And that's it.
But there is a hard minority of extremists that aren't challenged as much as they should be, and other types (common to all demographics) that play the race/religion card and get away with it [as per Rotherham] or have useful idiots refuse to even consider such things in the name of political sensitivity.
Edited extra bit: also, we should have a revolution, turf out Cameron, and install Miss Cyclefree as dictatrix.
You lose.
https://twitter.com/LONDJC/status/734669820529102848
http://fivethirtyeight.com/interactives/pollster-ratings/
By the way, Boris hasn't written a half-bad article here:
https://www.facebook.com/borisjohnson/posts/10153711166376317
One could just as easily say that David Cameron caused the 2006-2016 figures to be so much worse.
But did you notice anything unusually bad, worse than the start of the 1990s, say, around 2008?
The evidence shows that it isn't.
Now if you're saying that there's been a fundamental shift towards low growth in the developed world I think I would agree with you.
But in that case all the long term economic plans are worse than worthless and there needs to be an acceptance that there will not be enough future wealth to meet all the government promises and people's expectations.
It would also mean that government borrowing (ie stealing wealth from the future) to fund consumption is even more reprehensible.
https://twitter.com/PlatoSays/status/734763961393008640