The islands are islands. The countries are countries. But neither the Irish state nor the British state are islands.
Now your just going off on a pedantry exercise. The Irish control their borders the same way as we do.
Perhaps if you weren't so stuntedly anglocentric you'd see your argument also applies in reverse. What;s to stop the UK allowing 77 million Turks to access Germany via Belfast airport, and how likely do you think that is to happen ?
Or is it just the paddies cheat and cant be trusted while you are honest ?
Interesting little piece on Ireland. If Leave wins do we get new passport checks? As you would expect the only significant Northern politician in favour of Brexit is the leader of the DUP.
Surprisingly the Irish Republic are said to be worried. I'd have thought they'd be the big winners. Companies leaving the UK would be falling over themselves to set up in Southern Ireland
No. Unless Ireland joins Schengen they stay in the UK Ireland free movement area.
And those landing in Dublin from Poland? They can enter the UK without passports then?
Us Northerners can have both a UK and irish passport. So Brit cirizens and EU citizens at the same time. Needless to say if we Leave us Europeans will be voting to keep riffraff ad directors out of our country.
Is that still true? Wasn't it changed a while back? Something about someone flying to Belfast, giving birth, getting her child Irish citizenship and then getting her child British citizenship which her child wouldn't have got if born in Britain.
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
Believe you me, I am frustrated with the Leave campaign.
I wrote to them almost three months ago predicting all of this.
I can sympathise. If Leave win it will be despite not because of its campaign.
The Remain campaign has been uninspired but efficient and well-drilled.
Both sides have offered more heat than light. This is a problem for David Cameron even if Remain wins because many Leavers will forget their own mendacities and dwell on Remain's. There will be a dark brooding.
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
Believe you me, I am frustrated with the Leave campaign.
I wrote to them almost three months ago predicting all of this.
I can sympathise. If Leave win it will be despite not because of its campaign.
The Remain campaign has been uninspired but efficient and well-drilled.
Both sides have offered more heat than light. This is a problem for David Cameron even if Remain wins because many Leavers will forget their own mendacities and dwell on Remain's. There will be a dark brooding.
Cameron has obviously taken the wrong lesson from the Scottish referendum. Were UKIP to do half of what the SNP managed.... Or even a quarter.
Hating the EU is a niche interest and most of those for whom it is a top priority already vote UKIP.
The risk is more that the Conservative Parliamentary party will remain in the anarchy where it currently resides.
Exactly. He hasn't won the actual argument in a way to silence his internal critics but in a way that infuriates them. It gets worse. There is talk of a purge of leavers.
Interesting little piece on Ireland. If Leave wins do we get new passport checks? As you would expect the only significant Northern politician in favour of Brexit is the leader of the DUP.
Surprisingly the Irish Republic are said to be worried. I'd have thought they'd be the big winners. Companies leaving the UK would be falling over themselves to set up in Southern Ireland
No. Unless Ireland joins Schengen they stay in the UK Ireland free movement area.
And those landing in Dublin from Poland? They can enter the UK without passports then?
Us Northerners can have both a UK and irish passport. So Brit cirizens and EU citizens at the same time. Needless to say if we Leave us Europeans will be voting to keep riffraff ad directors out of our country.
Is that still true? Wasn't it changed a while back? Something about someone flying to Belfast, giving birth, getting her child Irish citizenship and then getting her child British citizenship which her child wouldn't have got if born in Britain.
They've tightened up a bit but all my three english born children can apply for citizenship. One of them already has a passport.
It's six months after the referendum was won by REMAIN
There's a terror attack in London, by EU citizens who got in thanks to free movement.
Or there's an irresistible demand for us to bail out the eurozone.
Or the EU army becomes a thing, or the EU moves to EU-wide taxes, or our Budget contribution doubles and we cannot veto, or.... etc etc
One or more of these things is BOUND to happen. Probably half a dozen will happen, over the next few years.
At that point, everyone will turn on Cameron and the europhile Tories, who bamboozled us into REMAIN, and the anger will be incandescent. Just blistering. Visceral.
The problem for REMAIN is that they are shouldering the burden of defending everything the EU does in the foreseeable future, as they told us to stay in, and the EU is usually and utterly indefensible. Cameron will of course become a loathed and derided Heath-like figure, but I suspect this taint will go much wider than him. The Tory party will feel a need to purge the traitors.
The only reason the SindyRef has gone away (for now) is the economic case for iScotland has got worse.
After a Remain victory, if anything, the case for Brexit will get stronger.
It is even possible the GE2020 will be fought with a Eurosceptic Tory leader putting "Leave" as a manifesto commitment. Without a referendum.
It's six months after the referendum was won by REMAIN
There's a terror attack in London, by EU citizens who got in thanks to free movement.
Or there's an irresistible demand for us to bail out the eurozone.
Or the EU army becomes a thing, or the EU moves to EU-wide taxes, or our Budget contribution doubles and we cannot veto, or.... etc etc
One or more of these things is BOUND to happen. Probably half a dozen will happen, over the next few years.
At that point, everyone will turn on Cameron and the europhile Tories, who bamboozled us into REMAIN, and the anger will be incandescent. Just blistering. Visceral.
The problem for REMAIN is that they are shouldering the burden of defending everything the EU does in the foreseeable future, as they told us to stay in, and the EU is usually and utterly indefensible. Cameron will of course become a loathed and derided Heath-like figure, but I suspect this taint will go much wider than him. The Tory party will feel a need to purge the traitors.
The EU army is a thing, training on Salisbury plain.
It's six months after the referendum was won by REMAIN
There's a terror attack in London, by EU citizens who got in thanks to free movement.
Or there's an irresistible demand for us to bail out the eurozone.
Or the EU army becomes a thing, or the EU moves to EU-wide taxes, or our Budget contribution doubles and we cannot veto, or.... etc etc
One or more of these things is BOUND to happen. Probably half a dozen will happen, over the next few years.
At that point, everyone will turn on Cameron and the europhile Tories, who bamboozled us into REMAIN, and the anger will be incandescent. Just blistering. Visceral.
The problem for REMAIN is that they are shouldering the burden of defending everything the EU does in the foreseeable future, as they told us to stay in, and the EU is usually and utterly indefensible. Cameron will of course become a loathed and derided Heath-like figure, but I suspect this taint will go much wider than him. The Tory party will feel a need to purge the traitors.
The only reason the SindyRef has gone away (for now) is the economic case for iScotland has got worse.
After a Remain victory, if anything, the case for Brexit will get stronger.
It is even possible the GE2020 will be fought with a Eurosceptic Tory leader putting "Leave" as a manifesto commitment. Without a referendum.
Maybe, but let's do the post-mortem in five weeks time.
In the meantime, let's put everything we've got into running it as close as possible.
Donate. Deliver leaflets. Offer to canvass. Talk to your friends and colleagues. Fight for the principles, and make the argument.
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
Believe you me, I am frustrated with the Leave campaign.
I wrote to them almost three months ago predicting all of this.
I can sympathise. If Leave win it will be despite not because of its campaign.
The Remain campaign has been uninspired but efficient and well-drilled.
Both sides have offered more heat than light. This is a problem for David Cameron even if Remain wins because many Leavers will forget their own mendacities and dwell on Remain's. There will be a dark brooding.
Cameron has obviously taken the wrong lesson from the Scottish referendum. Were UKIP to do half of what the SNP managed.... Or even a quarter.
Hating the EU is a niche interest and most of those for whom it is a top priority already vote UKIP.
The risk is more that the Conservative Parliamentary party will remain in the anarchy where it currently resides.
Exactly. He hasn't won the actual argument in a way to silence his internal critics but in a way that infuriates them. It gets worse. There is talk of a purge of leavers.
If Remain wins, David Cameron needs to identify good Leavers (and Remainers)and look after them. By the same token, however, he needs to punish naughty Leavers (and Remainers) and state explicitly how he has drawn up his list of each. He can then appeal to his MPs to unite around good behaviours.
It won't work, but he can feel better about having done it.
Let's play a mind game. It's six months after the referendum was won by REMAIN. There's a terror attack in London, by EU citizens who got in thanks to free movement. Or there's an irresistible demand for us to bail out the eurozone. Or the EU army becomes a thing, or the EU moves to EU-wide taxes, or our Budget contribution doubles and we cannot veto, or.... etc etc One or more of these things is BOUND to happen. Probably half a dozen will happen, over the next few years. At that point, everyone will turn on Cameron and the europhile Tories, who bamboozled us into REMAIN, and the anger will be incandescent. Just blistering. Visceral.
This will not be a problem for REMAIN. It will be a problem for the Conservative party alone. Voters did not link the ERM debacle to those in Labour and the Lib Dems that pushed for it, they blamed the Conservative Govt when the next GE came around after black tuesday.
It's six months after the referendum was won by REMAIN
There's a terror attack in London, by EU citizens who got in thanks to free movement.
Or there's an irresistible demand for us to bail out the eurozone.
Or the EU army becomes a thing, or the EU moves to EU-wide taxes, or our Budget contribution doubles and we cannot veto, or.... etc etc
One or more of these things is BOUND to happen. Probably half a dozen will happen, over the next few years.
At that point, everyone will turn on Cameron and the europhile Tories, who bamboozled us into REMAIN, and the anger will be incandescent. Just blistering. Visceral.
The problem for REMAIN is that they are shouldering the burden of defending everything the EU does in the foreseeable future, as they told us to stay in, and the EU is usually and utterly indefensible. Cameron will of course become a loathed and derided Heath-like figure, but I suspect this taint will go much wider than him. The Tory party will feel a need to purge the traitors.
I am reminded about how the Irish were 'persuaded' to vote their parliament out of existence in 1801.
That of course caused peace and love all round for the next 200 years.....
Or is it just the paddies cheat and cant be trusted while you are honest ?
You're implying racism again so I will return to my original point again.
As long as the Ireland/Northern Ireland border remains porous, then neither Dublin nor London can claim to control their borders. This situation has only kept going because historically movement across the border has been by people with a British or Irish passport.
LEAVE claims that Brexit will enable the Brits to control their borders. But the Ireland/Northern Ireland border is uncontrolled - there's a motorway running thru it. Following a Brexit, I assume people in the EU that wish to enter the UK but are denied would instead take advantage of that porous border and travel to the UK via Ireland. Ireland would at that point have choices: tune its entry policy to match the UK's (at which point it's operating a UK-border-by-proxy, which will irk) or operate a different one (in which case there will be gaps, and we're back to the beginning)
If you imply racism again I will simply repeat this point.
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
Believe you me, I am frustrated with the Leave campaign.
I wrote to them almost three months ago predicting all of this.
I can sympathise. If Leave win it will be despite not because of its campaign.
The Remain campaign has been uninspired but efficient and well-drilled.
Both sides have offered more heat than light. This is a problem for David Cameron even if Remain wins because many Leavers will forget their own mendacities and dwell on Remain's. There will be a dark brooding.
Cameron has obviously taken the wrong lesson from the Scottish referendum. Were UKIP to do half of what the SNP managed.... Or even a quarter.
Hating the EU is a niche interest and most of those for whom it is a top priority already vote UKIP.
The risk is more that the Conservative Parliamentary party will remain in the anarchy where it currently resides.
Exactly. He hasn't won the actual argument in a way to silence his internal critics but in a way that infuriates them. It gets worse. There is talk of a purge of leavers.
If Remain wins, David Cameron needs to identify good Leavers (and Remainers)and look after them. By the same token, however, he needs to punish naughty Leavers (and Remainers) and state explicitly how he has drawn up his list of each. He can then appeal to his MPs to unite around good behaviours.
It won't work, but he can feel better about having done it.
I'd agree if Cameron and Osbourne were not very naughty Remainers...
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
Believe you me, I am frustrated with the Leave campaign.
I wrote to them almost three months ago predicting all of this.
I can sympathise. If Leave win it will be despite not because of its campaign.
The Remain campaign has been uninspired but efficient and well-drilled.
Both sides have offered more heat than light. This is a problem for David Cameron even if Remain wins because many Leavers will forget their own mendacities and dwell on Remain's. There will be a dark brooding.
Cameron has obviously taken the wrong lesson from the Scottish referendum. Were UKIP to do half of what the SNP managed.... Or even a quarter.
Hating the EU is a niche interest and most of those for whom it is a top priority already vote UKIP.
The risk is more that the Conservative Parliamentary party will remain in the anarchy where it currently resides.
Exactly. He hasn't won the actual argument in a way to silence his internal critics but in a way that infuriates them. It gets worse. There is talk of a purge of leavers.
If Remain wins, David Cameron needs to identify good Leavers (and Remainers)and look after them. By the same token, however, he needs to punish naughty Leavers (and Remainers) and state explicitly how he has drawn up his list of each. He can then appeal to his MPs to unite around good behaviours.
It won't work, but he can feel better about having done it.
LOL how's he going to do that ?
He has a shelf life of 3 years max. no majority if the bastards cut rough and a party split down the middle. With a split he himself is making bigger.
The baddies will just tough it out and then piss all over him. His influence declines by the day,
The FT headline has been foreshadowed for weeks. @RichardNabavi noted we could expect this at least three weeks ago.
Did he write it ?
I doubt it. It only took the ability to read to see what was coming.
If Leave aren't prepared for this, it is even more of a shambles than I thought.
If Leave aren't prepared for the forthcoming Remain campaign focus on the NHS, they are a right shambles
REMAIN will win, but are REMAIN prepared for the revenge that will follow? The contempt and disgust of the British people, bullied into voting for an EU they dislike? The absolute loathing of Tory activists, members, supports, needing to vent their self hatred and shame?
It will be bitter and bloody and savage. Cameron and Osborne will be hate-figures for decades. I don't think they begin to comprehend how they are now viewed, nor the other Tory quislings, like yourself.
And your abject referendum isn't even won yet.
I find your lack of faith in the UK electorate disturbing.
Do you honestly think the UK public can be bullied?
It's what happened in Scotland, isn't it?
That's the difference between the AV referendum and IndyRef. In the former he won the argument, in the latter there was the now familiar sturm und drang.
Or is it just the paddies cheat and cant be trusted while you are honest ?
You're implying racism again so I will return to my original point again.
As long as the Ireland/Northern Ireland border remains porous, then neither Dublin nor London can claim to control their borders. This situation has only kept going because historically movement across the border has been by people with a British or Irish passport.
LEAVE claims that Brexit will enable the Brits to control their borders. But the Ireland/Northern Ireland border is uncontrolled - there's a motorway running thru it. Following a Brexit, I assume people in the EU that wish to enter the UK but are denied would instead take advantage of that porous border and travel to the UK via Ireland. Ireland would at that point have choices: tune its entry policy to match the UK's (at which point it's operating a UK-border-by-proxy, which will irk) or operate a different one (in which case there will be gaps, and we're back to the beginning)
If you imply racism again I will simply repeat this point.
No I'm not implying anything. I;m stating categorically you haven;t a clue what you;re talking about or how the Irish UK border worls.
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
Believe you me, I am frustrated with the Leave campaign.
I wrote to them almost three months ago predicting all of this.
I can sympathise. If Leave win it will be despite not because of its campaign.
The Remain campaign has been uninspired but efficient and well-drilled.
Both sides have offered more heat than light. This is a problem for David Cameron even if Remain wins because many Leavers will forget their own mendacities and dwell on Remain's. There will be a dark brooding.
Cameron has obviously taken the wrong lesson from the Scottish referendum. Were UKIP to do half of what the SNP managed.... Or even a quarter.
Hating the EU is a niche interest and most of those for whom it is a top priority already vote UKIP.
The risk is more that the Conservative Parliamentary party will remain in the anarchy where it currently resides.
Exactly. He hasn't won the actual argument in a way to silence his internal critics but in a way that infuriates them. It gets worse. There is talk of a purge of leavers.
If Remain wins, David Cameron needs to identify good Leavers (and Remainers)and look after them. By the same token, however, he needs to punish naughty Leavers (and Remainers) and state explicitly how he has drawn up his list of each. He can then appeal to his MPs to unite around good behaviours.
It won't work, but he can feel better about having done it.
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
Believe you me, I am frustrated with the Leave campaign.
I wrote to them almost three months ago predicting all of this.
I can sympathise. If Leave win it will be despite not because of its campaign.
The Remain campaign has been uninspired but efficient and well-drilled.
Both sides have offered more heat than light. This is a problem for David Cameron even if Remain wins because many Leavers will forget their own mendacities and dwell on Remain's. There will be a dark brooding.
Cameron has obviously taken the wrong lesson from the Scottish referendum. Were UKIP to do half of what the SNP managed.... Or even a quarter.
Hating the EU is a niche interest and most of those for whom it is a top priority already vote UKIP.
The risk is more that the Conservative Parliamentary party will remain in the anarchy where it currently resides.
Exactly. He hasn't won the actual argument in a way to silence his internal critics but in a way that infuriates them. It gets worse. There is talk of a purge of leavers.
If Remain wins, David Cameron needs to identify good Leavers (and Remainers)and look after them. By the same token, however, he needs to punish naughty Leavers (and Remainers) and state explicitly how he has drawn up his list of each. He can then appeal to his MPs to unite around good behaviours.
It won't work, but he can feel better about having done it.
LOL how's he going to do that ?
He has a shelf life of 3 years max. no majority if the bastards cut rough and a party split down the middle. With a split he himself is making bigger.
The baddies will just tough it out and then piss all over him. His influence declines by the day,
You didn't get to the last line?
After the referendum the Conservative party looks set to be utterly ungovernable under almost anyone. Worse, large parts of that party are uninterested in finding the unity candidates who would stand a (slim) chance.
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
Believe you me, I am frustrated with the Leave campaign.
I wrote to them almost three months ago predicting all of this.
I can sympathise. If Leave win it will be despite not because of its campaign.
The Remain campaign has been uninspired but efficient and well-drilled.
Both sides have offered more heat than light. This is a problem for David Cameron even if Remain wins because many Leavers will forget their own mendacities and dwell on Remain's. There will be a dark brooding.
Cameron has obviously taken the wrong lesson from the Scottish referendum. Were UKIP to do half of what the SNP managed.... Or even a quarter.
Hating the EU is a niche interest and most of those for whom it is a top priority already vote UKIP.
The risk is more that the Conservative Parliamentary party will remain in the anarchy where it currently resides.
Exactly. He hasn't won the actual argument in a way to silence his internal critics but in a way that infuriates them. It gets worse. There is talk of a purge of leavers.
If Remain wins, David Cameron needs to identify good Leavers (and Remainers)and look after them. By the same token, however, he needs to punish naughty Leavers (and Remainers) and state explicitly how he has drawn up his list of each. He can then appeal to his MPs to unite around good behaviours.
It won't work, but he can feel better about having done it.
LOL how's he going to do that ?
He has a shelf life of 3 years max. no majority if the bastards cut rough and a party split down the middle. With a split he himself is making bigger.
The baddies will just tough it out and then piss all over him. His influence declines by the day,
You didn't get to the last line?
After the referendum the Conservative party looks set to be utterly ungovernable under almost anyone. Worse, large parts of that party are uninterested in finding the unity candidates who would stand a (slim) chance.
Or to put another way, Cameron has f*cked the party? Well and truly.
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
Believe you me, I am frustrated with the Leave campaign.
I wrote to them almost three months ago predicting all of this.
I can sympathise. If Leave win it will be despite not because of its campaign.
The Remain campaign has been uninspired but efficient and well-drilled.
Both sides have offered more heat than light. This is a problem for David Cameron even if Remain wins because many Leavers will forget their own mendacities and dwell on Remain's. There will be a dark brooding.
Cameron has obviously taken the wrong lesson from the Scottish referendum. Were UKIP to do half of what the SNP managed.... Or even a quarter.
Hating the EU is a niche interest and most of those for whom it is a top priority already vote UKIP.
The risk is more that the Conservative Parliamentary party will remain in the anarchy where it currently resides.
Exactly. He hasn't won the actual argument in a way to silence his internal critics but in a way that infuriates them. It gets worse. There is talk of a purge of leavers.
If Remain wins, David Cameron needs to identify good Leavers (and Remainers)and look after them. By the same token, however, he needs to punish naughty Leavers (and Remainers) and state explicitly how he has drawn up his list of each. He can then appeal to his MPs to unite around good behaviours.
It won't work, but he can feel better about having done it.
LOL how's he going to do that ?
He has a shelf life of 3 years max. no majority if the bastards cut rough and a party split down the middle. With a split he himself is making bigger.
The baddies will just tough it out and then piss all over him. His influence declines by the day,
You didn't get to the last line?
After the referendum the Conservative party looks set to be utterly ungovernable under almost anyone. Worse, large parts of that party are uninterested in finding the unity candidates who would stand a (slim) chance.
You didn't read the bit before the last line ? Wkat's the point he won;t even get past the starting line.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
If parliament so legislates they can do so. Another advantage of regaining sovereignty
If you're establishing an internal border within the UK which people need passport checks to cross, then you've lost control of the state. That's not gaining sovereignty, that's losing it.
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
Believe you me, I am frustrated with the Leave campaign.
I wrote to them almost three months ago predicting all of this.
I can sympathise. If Leave win it will be despite not because of its campaign.
The Remain campaign has been uninspired but efficient and well-drilled.
Both sides have offered more heat than light. This is a problem for David Cameron even if Remain wins because many Leavers will forget their own mendacities and dwell on Remain's. There will be a dark brooding.
Cameron has obviously taken the wrong lesson from the Scottish referendum. Were UKIP to do half of what the SNP managed.... Or even a quarter.
Hating the EU is a niche interest and most of those for whom it is a top priority already vote UKIP.
The risk is more that the Conservative Parliamentary party will remain in the anarchy where it currently resides.
Exactly. He hasn't won the actual argument in a way to silence his internal critics but in a way that infuriates them. It gets worse. There is talk of a purge of leavers.
If Remain wins, David Cameron needs to identify good Leavers (and Remainers)and look after them. By the same token, however, he needs to punish naughty Leavers (and Remainers) and state explicitly how he has drawn up his list of each. He can then appeal to his MPs to unite around good behaviours.
It won't work, but he can feel better about having done it.
Like a Tory Santa ?
I think he will be more like the U boat commander in Dad's Army. "Your name will go on ze list!"
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
Believe you me, I am frustrated with the Leave campaign.
I wrote to them almost three months ago predicting all of this.
I can sympathise. If Leave win it will be despite not because of its campaign.
The Remain campaign has been uninspired but efficient and well-drilled.
Both sides have offered more heat than light. This is a problem for David Cameron even if Remain wins because many Leavers will forget their own mendacities and dwell on Remain's. There will be a dark brooding.
Cameron has obviously taken the wrong lesson from the Scottish referendum. Were UKIP to do half of what the SNP managed.... Or even a quarter.
Hating the EU is a niche interest and most of those for whom it is a top priority already vote UKIP.
The risk is more that the Conservative Parliamentary party will remain in the anarchy where it currently resides.
Exactly. He hasn't won the actual argument in a way to silence his internal critics but in a way that infuriates them. It gets worse. There is talk of a purge of leavers.
If Remain wins, David Cameron needs to identify good Leavers (and Remainers)and look after them. By the same token, however, he needs to punish naughty Leavers (and Remainers) and state explicitly how he has drawn up his list of each. He can then appeal to his MPs to unite around good behaviours.
It won't work, but he can feel better about having done it.
But what is a Good Leaver (or Remainer)? Is it someone who didn't argue their case with passion? Is it someone who did not attack the government's case? Or is it someone who avoided ad hominem attacks? If the last, what constitutes that - naming a person, or a group of persons?
Following the megashambles of the sold-gold loony, easily rebuttable, counter-productive claim about Turkey, I'd expected that the more excitable Leavers would be a tad chastened, and perhaps a smidgen less keen on flinging around accusations of bad faith or scaremongering about an EU army.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
So the special branch chaps always hanging around as I have gone from NI to GB as you exit the boat or plane, were just having some fun? Sure they were not officially doing border control but back in the real world that's exactly what they were doing.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
If parliament so legislates they can do so. Another advantage of regaining sovereignty
If you're establishing an internal border within the UK which people need passport checks to cross, then you've lost control of the state. That's not gaining sovereignty, that's losing it.
oh FFS the internal border is already policed on flights when you have to turn up with ID. Really have you ever travelled on anything other than a bus ?
Or is it just the paddies cheat and cant be trusted while you are honest ?
You're implying racism again so I will return to my original point again.
As long as the Ireland/Northern Ireland border remains porous, then neither Dublin nor London can claim to control their borders. This situation has only kept going because historically movement across the border has been by people with a British or Irish passport.
LEAVE claims that Brexit will enable the Brits to control their borders. But the Ireland/Northern Ireland border is uncontrolled - there's a motorway running thru it. Following a Brexit, I assume people in the EU that wish to enter the UK but are denied would instead take advantage of that porous border and travel to the UK via Ireland. Ireland would at that point have choices: tune its entry policy to match the UK's (at which point it's operating a UK-border-by-proxy, which will irk) or operate a different one (in which case there will be gaps, and we're back to the beginning)
If you imply racism again I will simply repeat this point.
No I'm not implying anything. I;m stating categorically you haven;t a clue what you;re talking about or how the Irish UK border worls.
I think I can confidently state that I am in possession of a clue.
He has a shelf life of 3 years max. no majority if the bastards cut rough and a party split down the middle. With a split he himself is making bigger.
The baddies will just tough it out and then piss all over him. His influence declines by the day,
You didn't get to the last line?
After the referendum the Conservative party looks set to be utterly ungovernable under almost anyone. Worse, large parts of that party are uninterested in finding the unity candidates who would stand a (slim) chance.
Or to put another way, Cameron has f*cked the party? Well and truly.
No. The Conservative right was already deluded and monomaniac. David Cameron staved them off for as long as possible but even King Canute couldn't keep the tide out.
Following the megashambles of the sold-gold loony, easily rebuttable, counter-productive claim about Turkey, I'd expected that the more excitable Leavers would be a tad chastened, and perhaps a smidgen less keen on flinging around accusations of bad faith.
I was wrong.
You usually are. Like young Meeks you can't get inside the mind of a Leaver.
Let's play a mind game. It's six months after the referendum was won by REMAIN. There's a terror attack in London, by EU citizens who got in thanks to free movement. Or there's an irresistible demand for us to bail out the eurozone. Or the EU army becomes a thing, or the EU moves to EU-wide taxes, or our Budget contribution doubles and we cannot veto, or.... etc etc One or more of these things is BOUND to happen. Probably half a dozen will happen, over the next few years. At that point, everyone will turn on Cameron and the europhile Tories, who bamboozled us into REMAIN, and the anger will be incandescent. Just blistering. Visceral.
This will not be a problem for REMAIN. It will be a problem for the Conservative party alone. Voters did not link the ERM debacle to those in Labour and the Lib Dems that pushed for it, they blamed the Conservative Govt when the next GE came around after black tuesday.
Agree it will be more of a problem for Tory REMAINIANS. Much more. Horrific for them.
But the EU does some annoying and difficult rightwing things as well - TTIP, etc. This will cause significant but lesser problems for the Labourite REMAINIANS, too.
It really is a lose lose for the Remainians in the longer-term unless miraculously the EU starts to become accountable, sensitive to electorates, responsive to their needs, and agile in responding to a rapidly changing international political and economic environment.
I do not expect even one of those things to come to pass.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
So the special branch chaps always hanging around as I have gone from NI to GB as you exit the boat or plane, were just having some fun? Sure they were not officially doing border control but back in the real world that's exactly what they were doing.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
So the special branch chaps always hanging around as I have gone from NI to GB as you exit the boat or plane, were just having some fun? Sure they were not officially doing border control but back in the real world that's exactly what they were doing.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
If parliament so legislates they can do so. Another advantage of regaining sovereignty
If you're establishing an internal border within the UK which people need passport checks to cross, then you've lost control of the state. That's not gaining sovereignty, that's losing it.
oh FFS the internal border is already policed on flights when you have to turn up with ID. Really have you ever travelled on anything other than a bus ?
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
If parliament so legislates they can do so. Another advantage of regaining sovereignty
If you're establishing an internal border within the UK which people need passport checks to cross, then you've lost control of the state. That's not gaining sovereignty, that's losing it.
So when I have to show my passport at a bank to open an account - the government has lost control of the state?
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
So the special branch chaps always hanging around as I have gone from NI to GB as you exit the boat or plane, were just having some fun? Sure they were not officially doing border control but back in the real world that's exactly what they were doing.
The "official" bit is important.
No it's not. It's the fact of it being done that is.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
So the special branch chaps always hanging around as I have gone from NI to GB as you exit the boat or plane, were just having some fun? Sure they were not officially doing border control but back in the real world that's exactly what they were doing.
Right, so there were no searches of people and luggage flying into Belfast during the Troubles? And no exclusion orders for Gerry Adams and Martin Galvin?
I'm sorry, are you saying internal security appropriate to the Troubles is something LEAVE want to go back to?
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
If parliament so legislates they can do so. Another advantage of regaining sovereignty
If you're establishing an internal border within the UK which people need passport checks to cross, then you've lost control of the state. That's not gaining sovereignty, that's losing it.
oh FFS the internal border is already policed on flights when you have to turn up with ID. Really have you ever travelled on anything other than a bus ?
Labour’s “metropolitan squeamishness” meant it struggled to relate to English working-class voters in the run-up to last year’s general election, and its campaigners were like middle-class Ryanair passengers “having to stomach a couple of hours’ flight with people they shared little in common with”, former candidates argue in a new book.
In the forthcoming work, edited by the backbencher Tristram Hunt, five failed and five successful candidates who stood in English seats at last year’s general election, including the MP and former Ed Miliband adviser Jon Cruddas, reflect on their personal experiences on the doorstep as Labour drifted towards defeat – and warn that the party has increasingly lost touch with its working-class roots.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
If parliament so legislates they can do so. Another advantage of regaining sovereignty
If you're establishing an internal border within the UK which people need passport checks to cross, then you've lost control of the state. That's not gaining sovereignty, that's losing it.
oh FFS the internal border is already policed on flights when you have to turn up with ID. Really have you ever travelled on anything other than a bus ?
That's an ID check for security to ensure you are the person you claim to be, not a border check.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
So the special branch chaps always hanging around as I have gone from NI to GB as you exit the boat or plane, were just having some fun? Sure they were not officially doing border control but back in the real world that's exactly what they were doing.
Pointless bringing it to his attention.
An Albanian former work colleague of mine got nabbed once by them. Was allowed on his journey after he showed that he was here legally.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
If parliament so legislates they can do so. Another advantage of regaining sovereignty
If you're establishing an internal border within the UK which people need passport checks to cross, then you've lost control of the state. That's not gaining sovereignty, that's losing it.
So when I have to show my passport at a bank to open an account - the government has lost control of the state?
If you have to show your passport to move from point A to point B, then yes, you have. If you are using it as ID, then no.
To digress for a moment, don't you have to provide ID with your address on it to open a bank account?
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
If parliament so legislates they can do so. Another advantage of regaining sovereignty
If you're establishing an internal border within the UK which people need passport checks to cross, then you've lost control of the state. That's not gaining sovereignty, that's losing it.
oh FFS the internal border is already policed on flights when you have to turn up with ID. Really have you ever travelled on anything other than a bus ?
Right, so there were no searches of people and luggage flying into Belfast during the Troubles? And no exclusion orders for Gerry Adams and Martin Galvin?
I'm sorry, are you saying internal security appropriate to the Troubles is something LEAVE want to go back to?
what makes you think it's about the troubles ? These days its about Al Qaeda and easy access to intenational flights
If youd ever travelled to Ni youd understand these days you get more security screening on a plane than you did at the height on the conflict.
He has a shelf life of 3 years max. no majority if the bastards cut rough and a party split down the middle. With a split he himself is making bigger.
The baddies will just tough it out and then piss all over him. His influence declines by the day,
You didn't get to the last line?
After the referendum the Conservative party looks set to be utterly ungovernable under almost anyone. Worse, large parts of that party are uninterested in finding the unity candidates who would stand a (slim) chance.
Or to put another way, Cameron has f*cked the party? Well and truly.
No. The Conservative right was already deluded and monomaniac. David Cameron staved them off for as long as possible but even King Canute couldn't keep the tide out.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
So the special branch chaps always hanging around as I have gone from NI to GB as you exit the boat or plane, were just having some fun? Sure they were not officially doing border control but back in the real world that's exactly what they were doing.
The "official" bit is important.
No it isnt. The de facto reality is.
Then we must disagree. The de jure element is important.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
If parliament so legislates they can do so. Another advantage of regaining sovereignty
If you're establishing an internal border within the UK which people need passport checks to cross, then you've lost control of the state. That's not gaining sovereignty, that's losing it.
oh FFS the internal border is already policed on flights when you have to turn up with ID. Really have you ever travelled on anything other than a bus ?
That's an ID check for security to ensure you are the person you claim to be, not a border check.
I disagree. The data is screened to see who is on the flight.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
If parliament so legislates they can do so. Another advantage of regaining sovereignty
If you're establishing an internal border within the UK which people need passport checks to cross, then you've lost control of the state. That's not gaining sovereignty, that's losing it.
So when I have to show my passport at a bank to open an account - the government has lost control of the state?
If you have to show your passport to move from point A to point B, then yes, you have. If you are using it as ID, then no.
To digress for a moment, don't you have to provide ID with your address on it to open a bank account?
You need both: Proof of you (ID), and proof of address.
SeanT's observation about Remain having to defend everything The EU does after a remain vote is a nail on the head.
As for The Telegraph front page, Matt had this a few days ago didn't he - something like we won't be worried about the economy given that there will be a war on.
Right. So Cameron would have campaigned for a recession would he? If he didn't get what he wanted? There is lots of leave stuff on social media contrasting what he did say to what he is saying now.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
So the special branch chaps always hanging around as I have gone from NI to GB as you exit the boat or plane, were just having some fun? Sure they were not officially doing border control but back in the real world that's exactly what they were doing.
The "official" bit is important.
No it isnt. The de facto reality is.
Then we must disagree. The de jure element is important.
I have no problem disagreeing with someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I have crossed both the UK Irish border and mainland NI border more times than you ever will and frankly you are arguing from a position of ignorance.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
If parliament so legislates they can do so. Another advantage of regaining sovereignty
If you're establishing an internal border within the UK which people need passport checks to cross, then you've lost control of the state. That's not gaining sovereignty, that's losing it.
oh FFS the internal border is already policed on flights when you have to turn up with ID. Really have you ever travelled on anything other than a bus ?
That's an ID check for security to ensure you are the person you claim to be, not a border check.
I disagree. The data is screened to see who is on the flight.
If you take a flight from Dublin to London you do not go through passport control when you land. This is not the case if you fly from Paris to London.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
So the special branch chaps always hanging around as I have gone from NI to GB as you exit the boat or plane, were just having some fun? Sure they were not officially doing border control but back in the real world that's exactly what they were doing.
The "official" bit is important.
No it isnt. The de facto reality is.
Then we must disagree. The de jure element is important.
I have no problem disagreeing with someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I have crossed both the UK Irish border and mainland NI border more times than you ever will and frankly you are arguing from a position of ignorance.
And yet you prefer to insult me rather than inform me.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
If parliament so legislates they can do so. Another advantage of regaining sovereignty
If you're establishing an internal border within the UK which people need passport checks to cross, then you've lost control of the state. That's not gaining sovereignty, that's losing it.
oh FFS the internal border is already policed on flights when you have to turn up with ID. Really have you ever travelled on anything other than a bus ?
That's an ID check for security to ensure you are the person you claim to be, not a border check.
I disagree. The data is screened to see who is on the flight.
If you take a flight from Dublin to London you do not go through passport control when you land. This is not the case if you fly from Paris to London.
The last time I went to Dublin ( Feb ) I had to produce ID and my passport was checked.
I like this post. The idea that the phone polls have probably got it right is hard to support , and Matt Singh's work doesn't hack it where the referendum is concerned. The idea that "phone polls are good" has relevance only to Remainer propaganda and to pollsters who track its success by asking people which side they think will win.
I have never before seen that question asked so much in polls. It smells of Mandy's dark princely arts. They're saying treat the referendum as if it were Facebook. They're saying Remain has mustered far more "likes" than Leave, leaving the punter to internalise the implied command to follow the crowd. "Eight out of ten cats say their owners prefer to stay in the EU".
I support Remain but I am teetering, because I'd love the British population to sock the political class in the mouth in the referendum. The decades-long major party consensus on immigration has never been supported by most of the population.
That said, whilst I support far tougher restrictions on immigration than the political class and the employers do, I strongly dislike xenophobia and racism. How "unfortunate" it is that immigration has received so little straightforward and honest consideration in the political conversation. But the same is true of most other important issues, such as destroying industry, abolishing mandatory student grants, and letting moneylenders push personal indebtedness through the roof.
A shorter list of points runs like this:
* for many many people, the referendum is about immigration all the way
(At least one poll has reported results based on separating immigration into three or more issues, and then making it compete with issues with which it overlaps, such as jobs and the economy. Which goes to show that just because you can select a sample, design a poll, collect data, extract statistics and draw charts, that doesn't mean you've got any sense, as any Yorkshireman can confirm.)
* many people feel very strongly about immigration
* and make that a fortiori, because people haven't had a chance to show their feelings about immigration before at the ballot box, since the only parties that want to restrict it as much as they do have been the BNP and UKIP - parties they don't want to have in government.
* this time they have got a chance, because the referendum isn't about parties or politicians. Viewing it as about politicians helps Remain.
What does it mean for a poll to be wrong? Pollsters aren't measuring the vote. They get a sample, they report the result, and in a culture where so many people watch sport on the television, they and the politicians and journalists spew out the line that "X is leading in the polls", which is basically a wrapper for a prediction based on the poll. That prediction can be right or wrong. If pollsters had more self-confidence, they would make more predictions that weren't simply copies of their poll results. What is actually happening is they admit that their sampling in polls for the referendum is crap.
In Peter Kellner's words, "(The pollsters) can only reach a small portion of the population: people who go online a lot, and people who are actually willing to complete an over-the-phone poll and not just put the phone down."
Those of us who are interested in the betting market for the referendum talk too much about damned polls.
Which is not to say I think Leave will win. It may be that enough people who feel strongly about immigration, and who oppose British membership of the EU, can be lulled into staying at home or indeed into voting Remain without understanding what they're doing.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
So the special branch chaps always hanging around as I have gone from NI to GB as you exit the boat or plane, were just having some fun? Sure they were not officially doing border control but back in the real world that's exactly what they were doing.
The "official" bit is important.
No it isnt. The de facto reality is.
Then we must disagree. The de jure element is important.
I have no problem disagreeing with someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I have crossed both the UK Irish border and mainland NI border more times than you ever will and frankly you are arguing from a position of ignorance.
And yet you prefer to insult me rather than inform me.
You can only inform if the other side is prepared to listen. You keep upping the ante with ever more unfounded claims while myself and other told you you had it wrong.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
If parliament so legislates they can do so. Another advantage of regaining sovereignty
If you're establishing an internal border within the UK which people need passport checks to cross, then you've lost control of the state. That's not gaining sovereignty, that's losing it.
So when I have to show my passport at a bank to open an account - the government has lost control of the state?
If you have to show your passport to move from point A to point B, then yes, you have. If you are using it as ID, then no.
To digress for a moment, don't you have to provide ID with your address on it to open a bank account?
You need both: Proof of you (ID), and proof of address.
Eg passport and utility bill.
You need to show your driving licence to use our local recycling site (Chigwell Road)!
The FT headline has been foreshadowed for weeks. @RichardNabavi noted we could expect this at least three weeks ago.
Did he write it ?
I doubt it. It only took the ability to read to see what was coming.
If Leave aren't prepared for this, it is even more of a shambles than I thought.
If Leave aren't prepared for the forthcoming Remain campaign focus on the NHS, they are a right shambles
That's nearly as good as Scott's Lying Tory bastards posts.
if they're all such a shambles why aren#t Remain 40 points ahead ? Could it be they're also a shower of shite ?
Remain are making sure they aren't peaking too soon.
Nice try but if the omnishable Leave is so ridiculous why aren't you massively ahead ?
Why is it that a bunch of incoherent nutters is making your life difficult ?
Well if the phone polls are accurate, Remain are massively ahead, and generally speaking Don't Knows break for the status quo.
yeah but why aren't you 40 points ahead ? You sledge the opposition daily and yet they hang in their depite their obvious incoherence.
Well Dave won the AV referendum by 35%, so winning by 40% is unlikely.
TSE: What have I done?
Darth Gideon (aka Chancellor Osborne): You are fulfilling your destiny, TSE. Become my apprentice. Learn to use the Daft Side of the Force. There's no turning back now.
TSE: I will do whatever you ask. Just help me save Theresa's political career. I can't live without her. If she resigns, I don't know what I will do.
Darth Gideon: To cheat political osbcurity is a power only one has achieved through centuries of the study of the Force. But if we work together, I know we can discover the secret to eternal AV Threads!
TSE: I pledge myself to your teachings. To the ways of the REMAIN Campaign.
Darth Gideon: Good. Good! The Force is strong with you, TSE. A powerful REMAINER you will become. Henceforth, you shall be known as Darth... Eagles.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
If parliament so legislates they can do so. Another advantage of regaining sovereignty
If you're establishing an internal border within the UK which people need passport checks to cross, then you've lost control of the state. That's not gaining sovereignty, that's losing it.
oh FFS the internal border is already policed on flights when you have to turn up with ID. Really have you ever travelled on anything other than a bus ?
That's an ID check for security to ensure you are the person you claim to be, not a border check.
I disagree. The data is screened to see who is on the flight.
If you take a flight from Dublin to London you do not go through passport control when you land. This is not the case if you fly from Paris to London.
The last time I went to Dublin ( Feb ) I had to produce ID and my passport was checked.
I think you're confusing the need to produce ID to get on a flight - i.e. proving that the name on the ticket matches the person travelling, with immigration control on entry. Most check-in staff will ask to see your passport but certainly for an internal flight a photo driving licence is just as valid.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
So the special branch chaps always hanging around as I have gone from NI to GB as you exit the boat or plane, were just having some fun? Sure they were not officially doing border control but back in the real world that's exactly what they were doing.
The "official" bit is important.
No it isnt. The de facto reality is.
Then we must disagree. The de jure element is important.
I have no problem disagreeing with someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I have crossed both the UK Irish border and mainland NI border more times than you ever will and frankly you are arguing from a position of ignorance.
And yet you prefer to insult me rather than inform me.
You can only inform if the other side is prepared to listen. You keep upping the ante with ever more unfounded claims while myself and other told you you had it wrong.
I didn't "up the ante". I stated my original point, you implied I was racist, I restated my original point, you implied I was racist again, I restated my original point, you moved from implying racism to simply insulting me.
This is the same "PM" who was "quite prepared" to leave the EU if he didn't get utterly trivial reforms to child benefit?
Cameron is a cockroach.
Cameron is a winner - he won two elections for you lot. He's a cut above the rest in the Tory party though there is little competition from the brainless comedic buffoons, right-wing nutters and charisma-less drones.
You usually are. Like young Meeks you can't get inside the mind of a Leaver.
That's true. Well, at least it's true that I can't get inside the mind of the sort of Leaver who believes (and I'm sure that they honestly believe) that every single independent academic or institution who has warned of the economic risks is by definition an Osborne stooge or a liar or (most hilariously ludicrous of all) has been bought off by the EU.
I see BTW that the predicted blow has fallen. It didn't require much prescience to predict it, given that the previous Treasury report explicitly mentioned it. So presumably the Leave campaign have their rebuttal ready to go out, right?
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
If parliament so legislates they can do so. Another advantage of regaining sovereignty
If you're establishing an internal border within the UK which people need passport checks to cross, then you've lost control of the state. That's not gaining sovereignty, that's losing it.
oh FFS the internal border is already policed on flights when you have to turn up with ID. Really have you ever travelled on anything other than a bus ?
That's an ID check for security to ensure you are the person you claim to be, not a border check.
I disagree. The data is screened to see who is on the flight.
If you take a flight from Dublin to London you do not go through passport control when you land. This is not the case if you fly from Paris to London.
The last time I went to Dublin ( Feb ) I had to produce ID and my passport was checked.
I think you're confusing the need to produce ID to get on a flight - i.e. proving that the name on the ticket matches the person travelling, with immigration control on entry. Most check-in staff will ask to see your passport but certainly for an internal flight a photo driving licence is just as valid.
No this was to get past border control. All the people on my flight from Birmingham were directed there. My wife and brother in law also had to show theirs.
I think theres a tendancy to forget that anti terrorist measure are de facto border control on a lot of travel. As I said down tread I have more security screening when flying to\ from Belfast in 2016 than I did in 1986.
@SamCoatesTimes: Exc: Brexit Tory MP Sarah Wollaston writes for Times tearing into Vote Leave for cynically distorting facts and "treating ppl like fools"
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
So the special branch chaps always hanging around as I have gone from NI to GB as you exit the boat or plane, were just having some fun? Sure they were not officially doing border control but back in the real world that's exactly what they were doing.
The "official" bit is important.
No it isnt. The de facto reality is.
Then we must disagree. The de jure element is important.
I have no problem disagreeing with someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I have crossed both the UK Irish border and mainland NI border more times than you ever will and frankly you are arguing from a position of ignorance.
And yet you prefer to insult me rather than inform me.
You can only inform if the other side is prepared to listen. You keep upping the ante with ever more unfounded claims while myself and other told you you had it wrong.
I didn't "up the ante". I stated my original point, you implied I was racist, I restated my original point, you implied I was racist again, I restated my original point, you moved from implying racism to simply insulting me.
"racist" is a recent english middle class invention . The inability to see things from an Irish perspective is centuries old. As I said if you reversed the position you could flood Germany via Belfast. I doubt either the EU or the UK would let that happen. But somehow your border only flowed in one direction.
This is the same "PM" who was "quite prepared" to leave the EU if he didn't get utterly trivial reforms to child benefit?
Cameron is a cockroach.
Cameron is a winner - he won two elections for you lot. He's a cut above the rest in the Tory party though there is little competition from the brainless comedic buffoons, right-wing nutters and charisma-less drones.
You usually are. Like young Meeks you can't get inside the mind of a Leaver.
That's true. Well, at least it's true that I can't get inside the mind of the sort of Leaver who believes (and I'm sure that they honestly believe) that every single independent academic or institution who has warned of the economic risks is by definition an Osborne stooge or a liar or (most hilariously ludicrous of all) has been bought off by the EU.
I see BTW that the predicted blow has fallen. It didn't require much prescience to predict it, given that the previous Treasury report explicitly mentioned it. So presumably the Leave campaign have their rebuttal ready to go out, right?
it's a value issue Mr N. Your values are mostly money based, for leavers money is only one of a range of considerations and not necessarily the most important.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
So the special branch chaps always hanging around as I have gone from NI to GB as you exit the boat or plane, were just having some fun? Sure they were not officially doing border control but back in the real world that's exactly what they were doing.
The "official" bit is important.
No it isnt. The de facto reality is.
Then we must disagree. The de jure element is important.
I have no problem disagreeing with someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I have crossed both the UK Irish border and mainland NI border more times than you ever will and frankly you are arguing from a position of ignorance.
And yet you prefer to insult me rather than inform me.
You can only inform if the other side is prepared to listen. You keep upping the ante with ever more unfounded claims while myself and other told you you had it wrong.
I didn't "up the ante". I stated my original point, you implied I was racist, I restated my original point, you implied I was racist again, I restated my original point, you moved from implying racism to simply insulting me.
"racist" is a recent english middle class invention . The inability to see things from an Irish perspective is centuries old. As I said if you reversed the position you could flood Germany via Belfast. I doubt either the EU or the UK would let that happen. But somehow your border only flowed in one direction.
Following the megashambles of the sold-gold loony, easily rebuttable, counter-productive claim about Turkey, I'd expected that the more excitable Leavers would be a tad chastened, and perhaps a smidgen less keen on flinging around accusations of bad faith or scaremongering about an EU army.
You usually are. Like young Meeks you can't get inside the mind of a Leaver.
That's true. Well, at least it's true that I can't get inside the mind of the sort of Leaver who believes (and I'm sure that they honestly believe) that every single independent academic or institution who has warned of the economic risks is by definition an Osborne stooge or a liar or (most hilariously ludicrous of all) has been bought off by the EU.
I see BTW that the predicted blow has fallen. It didn't require much prescience to predict it, given that the previous Treasury report explicitly mentioned it. So presumably the Leave campaign have their rebuttal ready to go out, right?
it's a value issue Mr N. Your values are mostly money based, for leavers money is only one of a range of considerations and not necessarily the most important.
No. If that were true, they'd accept that there are economic risks, and argue that these are worth taking to get the other benefits. Of our distinguished Leavers here, only the excellent Sean Fear and a handful of others are honest and sensible enough to make that argument; most (and of course the entire official and unofficial Leave campaigns) answer every single economic argument by attempting to shoot the messenger.
I expect we are about to see a very fine example of that phenomenon.
Right, so there were no searches of people and luggage flying into Belfast during the Troubles? And no exclusion orders for Gerry Adams and Martin Galvin?
I'm sorry, are you saying internal security appropriate to the Troubles is something LEAVE want to go back to?
Well, haven't you noticed the increase in terrorism? Wouldn't surprise me if you haven't as you seem so purblind to so much.
And yes, if we want immigration controls, then will need security checks between NI and the mainland as we will have an open border between the Irish Republic and NI.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain.
No there can't. Somebody on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool isn't crossing a UK border.
So the special branch chaps always hanging around as I have gone from NI to GB as you exit the boat or plane, were just having some fun? Sure they were not officially doing border control but back in the real world that's exactly what they were doing.
The "official" bit is important.
No it isnt. The de facto reality is.
Then we must disagree. The de jure element is important.
I have no problem disagreeing with someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I have crossed both the UK Irish border and mainland NI border more times than you ever will and frankly you are arguing from a position of ignorance.
And yet you prefer to insult me rather than inform me.
You can only inform if the other side is prepared to listen. You keep upping the ante with ever more unfounded claims while myself and other told you you had it wrong.
I didn't "up the ante". I stated my original point, you implied I was racist, I restated my original point, you implied I was racist again, I restated my original point, you moved from implying racism to simply insulting me.
"racist" is a recent english middle class invention . The inability to see things from an Irish perspective is centuries old. As I said if you reversed the position you could flood Germany via Belfast. I doubt either the EU or the UK would let that happen. But somehow your border only flowed in one direction.
My border did not flow in one direction.
Did you once look at how the inverse might look and then think the Iish and EU wouldn't put up with that for long ?
You usually are. Like young Meeks you can't get inside the mind of a Leaver.
That's true. Well, at least it's true that I can't get inside the mind of the sort of Leaver who believes (and I'm sure that they honestly believe) that every single independent academic or institution who has warned of the economic risks is by definition an Osborne stooge or a liar or (most hilariously ludicrous of all) has been bought off by the EU.
I see BTW that the predicted blow has fallen. It didn't require much prescience to predict it, given that the previous Treasury report explicitly mentioned it. So presumably the Leave campaign have their rebuttal ready to go out, right?
The problem with the "many experts" theory (which Leave have failed to rebut) is that many experts are no more valid than one.
They are all using the same starting point, broadly the same model and assumptions so unsurprisingly come to broadly the same result.
It isn't a shock and requires no conspiracy. I'd expect every "mainstream economist" to agree. Obviously Cameron is a very bad man and lacks judgement for even suggesting he'd campaign for leave.
Counting your experts as some sort of proof your right is however misguided particularly when it comes to "economic experts" who failed to predict any major crash, clung to the gold standard impoverishing people, in favour of all sorts of daft stuff, wrote to say how the 1981 budget was wrong and so on and so forth.
Thing is if you read the reports (and it would be nice if Leave did) you note that the assumptions for leave are a bit off for a start and the growth figures for remain are based on the Euro fixing itself which seems a bit unlikely in both the short and medium term.
Of course Osbourne has ignored experts before, which is fine because they are mostly wrong as in this case. It's odd that he is now seeking to rely on them.
You usually are. Like young Meeks you can't get inside the mind of a Leaver.
That's true. Well, at least it's true that I can't get inside the mind of the sort of Leaver who believes (and I'm sure that they honestly believe) that every single independent academic or institution who has warned of the economic risks is by definition an Osborne stooge or a liar or (most hilariously ludicrous of all) has been bought off by the EU.
I see BTW that the predicted blow has fallen. It didn't require much prescience to predict it, given that the previous Treasury report explicitly mentioned it. So presumably the Leave campaign have their rebuttal ready to go out, right?
it's a value issue Mr N. Your values are mostly money based, for leavers money is only one of a range of considerations and not necessarily the most important.
No. If that were true, they'd accept that there are economic risks, and argue that these are worth taking to get the other benefits. Of our distinguished Leavers here, only the excellent Sean Fear and a handful of others are honest and sensible enough to make that argument; most (and of course the entire official and unofficial Leave campaigns) answer every single economic argument by attempting to shoot the messenger.
I expect we are about to see a very fine example of that phenomenon.
"No. If that were true, they'd accept that there are economic risks, and argue that these are worth taking to get the other benefits."
LOL Richard if that were true then the august institutions would also look at the upside of leaving as well as the risks. I suspect that's why they lack credibility with Leavers, that and the over the top scaremongering. Risk and reward as you point out go together,
@BenedictWhite - Yes, that would be a sensible (if somewhat fingers-in-the-ears) response to the problem that nearly all experts agree.
But it's not the response the Leavers have made. Instead we have been treated to an ever-increasing and ever-more-ludicrous list of accusations of bad faith against the PM, the Chancellor, the Treasury, the CBI, the TUC, the Institute of Directors, the IMF, the OECD, the Bank of England, the NIESR, the G20 finance ministers, the President of the United States, an impressive list of former US treasury secretaries, all investment banks, most fund managers, the vast majority of academic economists, the ratings agencies, etc etc
Accusing that lot of being dishonest stooges is beyond stupid, because quite obviously they aren't. The politics of this isn't hard, surely?
Right, so there were no searches of people and luggage flying into Belfast during the Troubles? And no exclusion orders for Gerry Adams and Martin Galvin?
I'm sorry, are you saying internal security appropriate to the Troubles is something LEAVE want to go back to?
Well, haven't you noticed the increase in terrorism? Wouldn't surprise me if you haven't as you seem so purblind to so much.
And yes, if we want immigration controls, then will need security checks between NI and the mainland as we will have an open border between the Irish Republic and NI.
If you have an open border between the Irish Republic and NI...then you haven't got immigration controls.
You usually are. Like young Meeks you can't get inside the mind of a Leaver.
That's true. Well, at least it's true that I can't get inside the mind of the sort of Leaver who believes (and I'm sure that they honestly believe) that every single independent academic or institution who has warned of the economic risks is by definition an Osborne stooge or a liar or (most hilariously ludicrous of all) has been bought off by the EU.
So, how many of these august institutions receive no UK Government or EU funding?
How many of these august institutions even entertained the possibility of the Great Financial Crash?
Incidentally, rather ironic use of independent in your post. Haven't you Remainers been telling us than there is no such thing as absolute independence?
This is the same "PM" who was "quite prepared" to leave the EU if he didn't get utterly trivial reforms to child benefit?
Cameron is a cockroach.
Cameron is a winner - he won two elections for you lot. He's a cut above the rest in the Tory party though there is little competition from the brainless comedic buffoons, right-wing nutters and charisma-less drones.
He's your best asset - get over it!!
Wrong,best asset is the labour leader,if your a tory.
Did you once look at how the inverse might look and then think the Iish and EU wouldn't put up with that for long ? All you posts were Ireland to UK.
If we were discussing other states leaving the EU, or if Ireland had a land border with another country, then I would have looked at it. But we weren't so I didn't.
Comments
Perhaps if you weren't so stuntedly anglocentric you'd see your argument also applies in reverse. What;s to stop the UK allowing 77 million Turks to access Germany via Belfast airport, and how likely do you think that is to happen ?
Or is it just the paddies cheat and cant be trusted while you are honest ?
The only reason the SindyRef has gone away (for now) is the economic case for iScotland has got worse.
After a Remain victory, if anything, the case for Brexit will get stronger.
It is even possible the GE2020 will be fought with a Eurosceptic Tory leader putting "Leave" as a manifesto commitment. Without a referendum.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3602683/Invasion-EU-army-Worried-Euro-tanks-park-lawn-Minister-late-here.html#ixzz49KNzcev5
In the meantime, let's put everything we've got into running it as close as possible.
Donate. Deliver leaflets. Offer to canvass. Talk to your friends and colleagues. Fight for the principles, and make the argument.
It won't work, but he can feel better about having done it.
That of course caused peace and love all round for the next 200 years.....
As long as the Ireland/Northern Ireland border remains porous, then neither Dublin nor London can claim to control their borders. This situation has only kept going because historically movement across the border has been by people with a British or Irish passport.
LEAVE claims that Brexit will enable the Brits to control their borders. But the Ireland/Northern Ireland border is uncontrolled - there's a motorway running thru it. Following a Brexit, I assume people in the EU that wish to enter the UK but are denied would instead take advantage of that porous border and travel to the UK via Ireland. Ireland would at that point have choices: tune its entry policy to match the UK's (at which point it's operating a UK-border-by-proxy, which will irk) or operate a different one (in which case there will be gaps, and we're back to the beginning)
If you imply racism again I will simply repeat this point.
He has a shelf life of 3 years max. no majority if the bastards cut rough and a party split down the middle. With a split he himself is making bigger.
The baddies will just tough it out and then piss all over him. His influence declines by the day,
That's the difference between the AV referendum and IndyRef. In the former he won the argument, in the latter there was the now familiar sturm und drang.
After the referendum the Conservative party looks set to be utterly ungovernable under almost anyone. Worse, large parts of that party are uninterested in finding the unity candidates who would stand a (slim) chance.
"Your name will go on ze list!"
Following the megashambles of the sold-gold loony, easily rebuttable, counter-productive claim about Turkey, I'd expected that the more excitable Leavers would be a tad chastened, and perhaps a smidgen less keen on flinging around accusations of bad faith or scaremongering about an EU army.
I was wrong.
And no exclusion orders for Gerry Adams and Martin Galvin?
How old are you?
It really is a lose lose for the Remainians in the longer-term unless miraculously the EU starts to become accountable, sensitive to electorates, responsive to their needs, and agile in responding to a rapidly changing international political and economic environment.
I do not expect even one of those things to come to pass.
So when I have to show my passport at a bank to open an account - the government has lost control of the state?
In the forthcoming work, edited by the backbencher Tristram Hunt, five failed and five successful candidates who stood in English seats at last year’s general election, including the MP and former Ed Miliband adviser Jon Cruddas, reflect on their personal experiences on the doorstep as Labour drifted towards defeat – and warn that the party has increasingly lost touch with its working-class roots.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/22/labour-activists-in-2015-were-like-middle-class-ryanair-passengers?CMP=twt_a-politics_b-gdnukpolitics
If you are using it as ID, then no.
To digress for a moment, don't you have to provide ID with your address on it to open a bank account?
If youd ever travelled to Ni youd understand these days you get more security screening on a plane than you did at the height on the conflict.
You need both: Proof of you (ID), and proof of address.
Eg passport and utility bill.
Corbyn losing the plot or throwing some meat to the loons. Telegraph could be creating mischief.
As for The Telegraph front page, Matt had this a few days ago didn't he - something like we won't be worried about the economy given that there will be a war on.
At best he is going to look a tad stupid.
There's a slight problem with this thesis
Remain is most of the Tory Parliamentary Party, Labour, the Lib Dems and the SNP, and some others
If it killed all of them...
I have never before seen that question asked so much in polls. It smells of Mandy's dark princely arts. They're saying treat the referendum as if it were Facebook. They're saying Remain has mustered far more "likes" than Leave, leaving the punter to internalise the implied command to follow the crowd. "Eight out of ten cats say their owners prefer to stay in the EU".
I support Remain but I am teetering, because I'd love the British population to sock the political class in the mouth in the referendum. The decades-long major party consensus on immigration has never been supported by most of the population.
That said, whilst I support far tougher restrictions on immigration than the political class and the employers do, I strongly dislike xenophobia and racism. How "unfortunate" it is that immigration has received so little straightforward and honest consideration in the political conversation. But the same is true of most other important issues, such as destroying industry, abolishing mandatory student grants, and letting moneylenders push personal indebtedness through the roof.
A shorter list of points runs like this:
* for many many people, the referendum is about immigration all the way
(At least one poll has reported results based on separating immigration into three or more issues, and then making it compete with issues with which it overlaps, such as jobs and the economy. Which goes to show that just because you can select a sample, design a poll, collect data, extract statistics and draw charts, that doesn't mean you've got any sense, as any Yorkshireman can confirm.)
* many people feel very strongly about immigration
* and make that a fortiori, because people haven't had a chance to show their feelings about immigration before at the ballot box, since the only parties that want to restrict it as much as they do have been the BNP and UKIP - parties they don't want to have in government.
* this time they have got a chance, because the referendum isn't about parties or politicians. Viewing it as about politicians helps Remain.
In Peter Kellner's words, "(The pollsters) can only reach a small portion of the population: people who go online a lot, and people who are actually willing to complete an over-the-phone poll and not just put the phone down."
Those of us who are interested in the betting market for the referendum talk too much about damned polls.
Which is not to say I think Leave will win. It may be that enough people who feel strongly about immigration, and who oppose British membership of the EU, can be lulled into staying at home or indeed into voting Remain without understanding what they're doing.
Darth Gideon (aka Chancellor Osborne): You are fulfilling your destiny, TSE. Become my apprentice. Learn to use the Daft Side of the Force. There's no turning back now.
TSE: I will do whatever you ask. Just help me save Theresa's political career. I can't live without her. If she resigns, I don't know what I will do.
Darth Gideon: To cheat political osbcurity is a power only one has achieved through centuries of the study of the Force. But if we work together, I know we can discover the secret to eternal AV Threads!
TSE: I pledge myself to your teachings. To the ways of the REMAIN Campaign.
Darth Gideon: Good. Good! The Force is strong with you, TSE. A powerful REMAINER you will become. Henceforth, you shall be known as Darth... Eagles.
TSE: Thank you... my Master.
Darth Gideon: Lord Eagles... rise.
http://bit.ly/1Tx2cKL
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/734494601004916737
Something about Osborne Brexit = Recession.
He's your best asset - get over it!!
I see BTW that the predicted blow has fallen. It didn't require much prescience to predict it, given that the previous Treasury report explicitly mentioned it. So presumably the Leave campaign have their rebuttal ready to go out, right?
I think theres a tendancy to forget that anti terrorist measure are de facto border control on a lot of travel. As I said down tread I have more security screening when flying to\ from Belfast in 2016 than I did in 1986.
http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/comment/columns_blogs_columnists/13885065.Hurray_for_the_death_of_the_thong/
I expect we are about to see a very fine example of that phenomenon.
And yes, if we want immigration controls, then will need security checks between NI and the mainland as we will have an open border between the Irish Republic and NI.
All you posts were Ireland to UK.
They are all using the same starting point, broadly the same model and assumptions so unsurprisingly come to broadly the same result.
It isn't a shock and requires no conspiracy. I'd expect every "mainstream economist" to agree. Obviously Cameron is a very bad man and lacks judgement for even suggesting he'd campaign for leave.
Counting your experts as some sort of proof your right is however misguided particularly when it comes to "economic experts" who failed to predict any major crash, clung to the gold standard impoverishing people, in favour of all sorts of daft stuff, wrote to say how the 1981 budget was wrong and so on and so forth.
Thing is if you read the reports (and it would be nice if Leave did) you note that the assumptions for leave are a bit off for a start and the growth figures for remain are based on the Euro fixing itself which seems a bit unlikely in both the short and medium term.
Of course Osbourne has ignored experts before, which is fine because they are mostly wrong as in this case. It's odd that he is now seeking to rely on them.
LOL Richard if that were true then the august institutions would also look at the upside of leaving as well as the risks. I suspect that's why they lack credibility with Leavers, that and the over the top scaremongering. Risk and reward as you point out go together,
Left. 50% Right. 50%
The EU cracking at the edges....................................................
But it's not the response the Leavers have made. Instead we have been treated to an ever-increasing and ever-more-ludicrous list of accusations of bad faith against the PM, the Chancellor, the Treasury, the CBI, the TUC, the Institute of Directors, the IMF, the OECD, the Bank of England, the NIESR, the G20 finance ministers, the President of the United States, an impressive list of former US treasury secretaries, all investment banks, most fund managers, the vast majority of academic economists, the ratings agencies, etc etc
Accusing that lot of being dishonest stooges is beyond stupid, because quite obviously they aren't. The politics of this isn't hard, surely?
How many of these august institutions even entertained the possibility of the Great Financial Crash?
Incidentally, rather ironic use of independent in your post. Haven't you Remainers been telling us than there is no such thing as absolute independence?