We would as the EEA allows for an emergency brake to be triggered unilaterally.
We would not need to pay benefits to any EU migrants (as Switzerland does not, for example).
And you could require private health insurance for all non UK citizens resident for more than three months, which would have the effect of eliminating all but skilled immigration.
Hi RCS1000 Hope u don't mind me asking but since upgrading to Windows 10 yesterday I am getting "expected" script errors on IE 11 on PB but its fine on chrome
Any ideas svp apart from the fact that Microsoft is crap ?
Interesting little piece on Ireland. If Leave wins do we get new passport checks? As you would expect the only significant Northern politician in favour of Brexit is the leader of the DUP.
Surprisingly the Irish Republic are said to be worried. I'd have thought they'd be the big winners. Companies leaving the UK would be falling over themselves to set up in Southern Ireland
No. Unless Ireland joins Schengen they stay in the UK Ireland free movement area.
And those landing in Dublin from Poland? They can enter the UK without passports then?
They can't go to Ireland without a passport either.
We are a bigger market for their manufactured goods than all the other EU countries combined, and we take nearly half of all their food produce and livestock exports as well.
Most of Ireland's European "partners" are a complete trading irrelevance.
I would guess that this would lead to real risks for the Eurozone if Ireland was caught in their currency whilst needing our custom post Brexit.
Or for wages to be able to fall. It's noticeable that the USA for instance while a single nation actually has relatively very few labour regulations set by the Federal government. The idea of the US Federal Government passing regulations like the EU has in the Working Time Directive etc is a total non starter.
Those who support the idea of a United States of Europe miss what it is that makes the United States of America successful in the first place.
What both right and left miss about America is the very high levels of public spending. It just looks low as a percentage of GDP because the economy is so large.
What impact on turnout do we think Euro 2016 will have? There are no matches on the 23rd, but surely the football will crowd out politics for a large segment of the population?
Glastonbury as well means that 100,000 people need to get their postal votes sorted...
Genuine question. Is there a rule about members of the public not voting while under the influence of narcotics? Because if so that's another factor t consider for the Glastonbury thousands.
They also need to get their place of residence sorted out as well, of course, given that some may have been registered in their university maugre their consent...
I think the idea is they post their votes before Glastonbury, not two days in.
Interesting little piece on Ireland. If Leave wins do we get new passport checks? As you would expect the only significant Northern politician in favour of Brexit is the leader of the DUP.
Surprisingly the Irish Republic are said to be worried. I'd have thought they'd be the big winners. Companies leaving the UK would be falling over themselves to set up in Southern Ireland
No. Unless Ireland joins Schengen they stay in the UK Ireland free movement area.
And those landing in Dublin from Poland? They can enter the UK without passports then?
Us Northerners can have both a UK and irish passport. So Brit cirizens and EU citizens at the same time. Needless to say if we Leave us Europeans will be voting to keep riffraff ad directors out of our country.
How do you stop 77 million Turkish visitors to Dublin making their way to the fleshpots of Soho without passport checks? There would be no checks between South and North nor between North and the rest of the UK. Would there?
PS As an Irishman you'll love 'Sing Street'. A fab Irish film out now.
Interesting little piece on Ireland. If Leave wins do we get new passport checks? As you would expect the only significant Northern politician in favour of Brexit is the leader of the DUP.
Surprisingly the Irish Republic are said to be worried. I'd have thought they'd be the big winners. Companies leaving the UK would be falling over themselves to set up in Southern Ireland
No. Unless Ireland joins Schengen they stay in the UK Ireland free movement area.
And those landing in Dublin from Poland? They can enter the UK without passports then?
Us Northerners can have both a UK and irish passport. So Brit cirizens and EU citizens at the same time. Needless to say if we Leave us Europeans will be voting to keep riffraff ad directors out of our country.
Unfortunately this does not speak to the problem.
Following a Brexit the porousness of the Ireland/Northern Ireland border becomes quite a problem . LEAVE's insistence that Brexit is necessary for border control congenitally ignores this problem ("we are an island nation", "the border is the Channel", "we are the people of England who have not spoken yet"). Roger's point that everybody in the EU can legally go to Dublin, drive to Belfast, ferry to Liverpool, train to London and unless the Brits instal checkpoints there is f**k all they can do to stop it.
The Common Travel Area only continues to exist because the Continent->Dublin->Belfast route is little used. What happens when every refo in the EU looks at a map?
What impact on turnout do we think Euro 2016 will have? There are no matches on the 23rd, but surely the football will crowd out politics for a large segment of the population?
Glastonbury as well means that 100,000 people need to get their postal votes sorted...
Glastonbury attendees are more likely to be Remainers. (Young, naïve, left-wing) - keep quiet.
There's a lot of middle-aged people at Glastonbury, and many of the bands have free bus passes.
Interesting little piece on Ireland. If Leave wins do we get new passport checks? As you would expect the only significant Northern politician in favour of Brexit is the leader of the DUP.
Surprisingly the Irish Republic are said to be worried. I'd have thought they'd be the big winners. Companies leaving the UK would be falling over themselves to set up in Southern Ireland
No. Unless Ireland joins Schengen they stay in the UK Ireland free movement area.
And those landing in Dublin from Poland? They can enter the UK without passports then?
Us Northerners can have both a UK and irish passport. So Brit cirizens and EU citizens at the same time. Needless to say if we Leave us Europeans will be voting to keep riffraff ad directors out of our country.
Unfortunately this does not speak to the problem.
Following a Brexit the porousness of the Ireland/Northern Ireland border becomes quite a problem . LEAVE's insistence that Brexit is necessary for border control congenitally ignores this problem ("we are an island nation", "the border is the Channel", "we are the people of England who have not spoken yet"). Roger's point that everybody in the EU can legally go to Dublin, drive to Belfast, ferry to Liverpool, train to London and unless the Brits instal checkpoints there is f**k all they can do to stop it.
The Common Travel Area only continues to exist because the Continent->Dublin->Belfast route is little used. What happens when every refo in the EU looks at a map?
You seem to think the Irish can't control their borders.
What impact on turnout do we think Euro 2016 will have? There are no matches on the 23rd, but surely the football will crowd out politics for a large segment of the population?
Glastonbury as well means that 100,000 people need to get their postal votes sorted...
Glastonbury attendees are more likely to be Remainers. (Young, naïve, left-wing) - keep quiet.
There's a lot of middle-aged people at Glastonbury, and many of the bands have free bus passes.
Interesting little piece on Ireland. If Leave wins do we get new passport checks? As you would expect the only significant Northern politician in favour of Brexit is the leader of the DUP.
Surprisingly the Irish Republic are said to be worried. I'd have thought they'd be the big winners. Companies leaving the UK would be falling over themselves to set up in Southern Ireland
No. Unless Ireland joins Schengen they stay in the UK Ireland free movement area.
And those landing in Dublin from Poland? They can enter the UK without passports then?
Us Northerners can have both a UK and irish passport. So Brit cirizens and EU citizens at the same time. Needless to say if we Leave us Europeans will be voting to keep riffraff ad directors out of our country.
How do you stop 77 million Turkish visitors to Dublin making their way to the fleshpots of Soho without passport checks? There would be no checks between South and North nor between North and the rest of the UK. Would there?
PS As an Irishman you'll love 'Sing Street'. A fab Irish film out now.
Like all Paddies you wouldn;t let trhem in in the first place.
Interesting little piece on Ireland. If Leave wins do we get new passport checks? As you would expect the only significant Northern politician in favour of Brexit is the leader of the DUP.
Surprisingly the Irish Republic are said to be worried. I'd have thought they'd be the big winners. Companies leaving the UK would be falling over themselves to set up in Southern Ireland
No. Unless Ireland joins Schengen they stay in the UK Ireland free movement area.
And those landing in Dublin from Poland? They can enter the UK without passports then?
Us Northerners can have both a UK and irish passport. So Brit cirizens and EU citizens at the same time. Needless to say if we Leave us Europeans will be voting to keep riffraff ad directors out of our country.
Unfortunately this does not speak to the problem.
Following a Brexit the porousness of the Ireland/Northern Ireland border becomes quite a problem . LEAVE's insistence that Brexit is necessary for border control congenitally ignores this problem ("we are an island nation", "the border is the Channel", "we are the people of England who have not spoken yet"). Roger's point that everybody in the EU can legally go to Dublin, drive to Belfast, ferry to Liverpool, train to London and unless the Brits instal checkpoints there is f**k all they can do to stop it.
The Common Travel Area only continues to exist because the Continent->Dublin->Belfast route is little used. What happens when every refo in the EU looks at a map?
You seem to think the Irish can't control their borders.
I am certain that the Irish state can My worry is that it won't, at least not sufficiently
Interesting little piece on Ireland. If Leave wins do we get new passport checks? As you would expect the only significant Northern politician in favour of Brexit is the leader of the DUP.
Surprisingly the Irish Republic are said to be worried. I'd have thought they'd be the big winners. Companies leaving the UK would be falling over themselves to set up in Southern Ireland
No. Unless Ireland joins Schengen they stay in the UK Ireland free movement area.
And those landing in Dublin from Poland? They can enter the UK without passports then?
Us Northerners can have both a UK and irish passport. So Brit cirizens and EU citizens at the same time. Needless to say if we Leave us Europeans will be voting to keep riffraff ad directors out of our country.
Unfortunately this does not speak to the problem.
Following a Brexit the porousness of the Ireland/Northern Ireland border becomes quite a problem . LEAVE's insistence that Brexit is necessary for border control congenitally ignores this problem ("we are an island nation", "the border is the Channel", "we are the people of England who have not spoken yet"). Roger's point that everybody in the EU can legally go to Dublin, drive to Belfast, ferry to Liverpool, train to London and unless the Brits instal checkpoints there is f**k all they can do to stop it.
The Common Travel Area only continues to exist because the Continent->Dublin->Belfast route is little used. What happens when every refo in the EU looks at a map?
You seem to think the Irish can't control their borders.
I am certain that the Irish state can My worry is that it won't, at least not sufficiently
The irish no more want 77 million more peoiple than the UK does.
Leave must leave the Turkey story behind, and move on to immigration. Why? Firstly, because it's not true. Secondly, every second that is spent on a non-story like this, is a second that is wasted by our campaign
If we are going to win this, we need to be focused and disciplined. Turkey joining in 2026, presumably following Greece and Cyprus leaving the EU, is just not a story that resonates with voters.
If we want to include it, saion work.
PB is full of clever, right-wing, intellectual people who are motivated by the legal and philosophical case for Brexit.
However, out in the country as a whole, the only majority for LEAVE involves people who are agitated by Muslims and foreigners, and who can be convinced that Muslims are a more clear and present danger than what the boffins say about the economy. It is a low-return and high-risk strategy, but perhaps that means it is the only one that can possibly work.
I have always felt that EFTA/EEA was a sensible destination. Contrary to the claims of many, it would enable sensible regulation of immigation (and through the price mechanism, rather than some absurd system of quotas). It would take us out of EU regulation of (for Sunil and Sandy) railways. It would preserve access to the Single Market and Passporting for financial services. And it would massively diminish the bills to the Treasury.
In other words, it would be popular with small business because leaving would not entail much risk.
Many of the x thousand pounds claims would simply not be possible if EFTA/EEA were the destination.
It does my head in that Leave can't get a coherent alternative.
On the other hand it probably also does Remain's head in too. If leave said we want X we'd be bomabarded by nonsense that X means automatic death, penury and a Jimmy Savile in every home.
Is wrestling fog harder to deal with than a clear position ?
Whereas if we vote Remain we will all have half a dozen Turks living in our spare rooms by Christmas
It is undoubtedly easier to obfuscate and disagreements in the Leave camp have been easier to paper over by adopting that approach but a disciplined campaign in favour of a clear option would have had a better chance of success.
Leave must leave the Turkey story behind, and move on to immigration. Why? Firstly, because it's not true. Secondly, every second that is spent on a non-story like this, is a second that is wasted by our campaign
If we are going to win this, we need to be focused and disciplined. Turkey joining in 2026, presumably following Greece and Cyprus leaving the EU, is just not a story that resonates with voters.
If we want to include it, say something like: "Of course, the expansion of the EU is not likely to end with Romania and Bulgaria. There are other countries, with larger and poorer populations, that could join in the longer term - such as Belorussia, Ukraine and Turkey." Which would at least have the benefit of being factually true.
The core of my Brexit thesis has always been a simple one: we are not - and will never be - happy members of the EU club. Our legal and democratic systems, as well as our history and philosophy, are very different. Attempting to fit our culture into the EU system is never going to make us happy, and isn't going to work for the EU either.
It would be better for both us and the EU if we were to leave. Not in rancour, but because our membership diminishes both us and the EU. We'll be better friends with the EU if we are not constantly chafing at its restrictions. And they'll be able to make the institutional reform needed to make their currency union work.
PB is full of clever, right-wing, intellectual people who are motivated by the legal and philosophical case for Brexit.
However, out in the country as a whole, the only majority for LEAVE involves people who are agitated by Muslims and foreigners, and who can be convinced that Muslims are a more clear and present danger than what the boffins say about the economy. It is a low-return and high-risk strategy, but perhaps that means it is the only one that can possibly work.
I have always felt that EFTA/EEA was a sensible destination. Contrary to the claims of many, it would enable sensible regulation of immigation (and through the price mechanism, rather than some absurd system of quotas). It would take us out of EU regulation of (for Sunil and Sandy) railways. It would preserve access to the Single Market and Passporting for financial services. And it would massively diminish the bills to the Treasury.
In other words, it would be popular with small business because leaving would not entail much risk.
Many of the x thousand pounds claims would simply not be possible if EFTA/EEA were the destination.
Leave must leave the Turkey story behind, and move on to immigration. Why? Firstly, because it's not true. Secondly, every second that is spent on a non-story like this, is a second that is wasted by our campaign
If we are going to win this, we need to be focused and disciplined. Turkey joining in 2026, presumably following Greece and Cyprus leaving the EU, is just not a story that resonates with voters.
If we want to include it, saion work.
PB is full of clever, right-wing, intellectual people who are motivated by the legal and philosophical case for Brexit.
However, out in the country as a whole, the only majority for LEAVE involves people who are agitated by Muslims and foreigners, and who can be convinced that Muslims are a more clear and present danger than what the boffins say about the economy. It is a low-return and high-risk strategy, but perhaps that means it is the only one that can possibly work.
I have always felt that EFTA/EEA was a sensible destination. Contrary to the claims of many, it would enable sensible regulation of immigation (and through the price mechanism, rather than some absurd system of quotas). It would take us out of EU regulation of (for Sunil and Sandy) railways. It would preserve access to the Single Market and Passporting for financial services. And it would massively diminish the bills to the Treasury.
In other words, it would be popular with small business because leaving would not entail much risk.
Many of the x thousand pounds claims would simply not be possible if EFTA/EEA were the destination.
It does my head in that Leave can't get a coherent alternative.
On the other hand it probably also does Remain's head in too. If leave said we want X we'd be bomabarded by nonsense that X means automatic death, penury and a Jimmy Savile in every home.
Is wrestling fog harder to deal with than a clear position ?
Whereas if we vote Remain we will all have half a dozen Turks living in our spare rooms by Christmas
It is undoubtedly easier to obfuscate and disagreements in the Leave camp have been easier to paper over by adopting that approach but a disciplined campaign in favour of a clear option would have had a better chance of success.
On balance yes. but since theres no coherent message from Leave Remain by definition will struggle to issue a coherent rebuttal/ It's probably why theye making up so much crap , Long term the Tories are doing themselves damage by association.
Just Alsergrund in Vienna to come and that's it for today, whole country counted in 2 hours after final polls close, thanks to polling station count and staggered poll close.
TV projection still 50/50, but projecting Van der Bellen to win by 3K votes nationwide once postals counted - he will win Vienna, Vorarlberg, Tirol (projection after postals).
Hofer wins Carinthia, Styria, Burgenland, Salzburg, Lower Austria. Upper Austria may flip to VdB after postals, currently Hofer 50.7%.
Looks like Hofer is nearly 4% ahead with postals to come:
Interesting little piece on Ireland. If Leave wins do we get new passport checks? As you would expect the only significant Northern politician in favour of Brexit is the leader of the DUP.
Surprisingly the Irish Republic are said to be worried. I'd have thought they'd be the big winners. Companies leaving the UK would be falling over themselves to set up in Southern Ireland
No. Unless Ireland joins Schengen they stay in the UK Ireland free movement area.
And those landing in Dublin from Poland? They can enter the UK without passports then?
Us Northerners can have both a UK and irish passport. So Brit cirizens and EU citizens at the same time. Needless to say if we Leave us Europeans will be voting to keep riffraff ad directors out of our country.
Unfortunately this does not speak to the problem.
Following a Brexit the porousness of the Ireland/Northern Ireland border becomes quite a problem . LEAVE's insistence that Brexit is necessary for border control congenitally ignores this problem ("we are an island nation", "the border is the Channel", "we are the people of England who have not spoken yet"). Roger's point that everybody in the EU can legally go to Dublin, drive to Belfast, ferry to Liverpool, train to London and unless the Brits instal checkpoints there is f**k all they can do to stop it.
The Common Travel Area only continues to exist because the Continent->Dublin->Belfast route is little used. What happens when every refo in the EU looks at a map?
You seem to think the Irish can't control their borders.
I am certain that the Irish state can My worry is that it won't, at least not sufficiently
The irish no more want 77 million more peoiple than the UK does.
Dublin Airport Arrivals Processing * Q Purpose of journey? * A Tourism. I have friends in Sligo...
Interesting little piece on Ireland. If Leave wins do we get new passport checks? As you would expect the only significant Northern politician in favour of Brexit is the leader of the DUP.
Surprisingly the Irish Republic are said to be worried. I'd have thought they'd be the big winners. Companies leaving the UK would be falling over themselves to set up in Southern Ireland
No. Unless Ireland joins Schengen they stay in the UK Ireland free movement area.
And those landing in Dublin from Poland? They can enter the UK without passports then?
Us Northerners can have both a UK and irish passport. So Brit cirizens and EU citizens at the same time. Needless to say if we Leave us Europeans will be voting to keep riffraff ad directors out of our country.
Unfortunately this does not speak to the problem.
Following a Brexit the porousness of the Ireland/Northern Ireland border becomes quite a problem . LEAVE's insistence that Brexit is necessary for border control congenitally ignores this problem ("we are an island nation", "the border is the Channel", "we are the people of England who have not spoken yet"). Roger's point that everybody in the EU can legally go to Dublin, drive to Belfast, ferry to Liverpool, train to London and unless the Brits instal checkpoints there is f**k all they can do to stop it.
The Common Travel Area only continues to exist because the Continent->Dublin->Belfast route is little used. What happens when every refo in the EU looks at a map?
You seem to think the Irish can't control their borders.
I am certain that the Irish state can My worry is that it won't, at least not sufficiently
The irish no more want 77 million more peoiple than the UK does.
Dublin Airport Arrivals Processing * Q Purpose of journey? * A Tourism. I have friends in Sligo...
36 hours later, he's in Oxford Street...
Right so paddy can't manage a piss up in a brewery.
Maybe you should invade the place and show the thickies how to do things.
I didn't watch Peston earlier. Did Cameron really say this? The guy has really lost his marbles if he did.
Asked if the UK would be "stronger, safer and better off" in the EU under Labour or out under the Tories the Prime Minister said the Europe vote is the more important decision.
I'm not sure that his sort of stuff is going to cut through any more.
Are they trying to say Cameron is a moron who would have campaigned for a long recession if he didn't get bugger all from the EU? The voters are not stupid*
Leave must leave the Turkey story behind, and move on to immigration. Why? Firstly, because it's not true. Secondly, every second that is spent on a non-story like this, is a second that is wasted by our campaign
If we are going to win this, we need to be focused and disciplined. Turkey joining in 2026, presumably following Greece and Cyprus leaving the EU, is just not a story that resonates with voters.
If we want to include it, saion work.
PB is full of clever, right-wing, intellectual people who are motivated by the legal and philosophical case for Brexit.
However, out in the country as a whole, the only majority for LEAVE involves people who are agitated by Muslims and foreigners, and who can be convinced that Muslims are a more clear and present danger than what the boffins say about the economy. It is a low-return and high-risk strategy, but perhaps that means it is the only one that can possibly work.
I have always felt that EFTA/EEA was a sensible destination. Contrary to the claims of many, it would enable sensible regulation of immigation (and through the price mechanism, rather than some absurd system of quotas). It would take us out of EU regulation of (for Sunil and Sandy) railways. It would preserve access to the Single Market and Passporting for financial services. And it would massively diminish the bills to the Treasury.
In other words, it would be popular with small business because leaving would not entail much risk.
Many of the x thousand pounds claims would simply not be possible if EFTA/EEA were the destination.
It does my head in that Leave can't get a coherent alternative.
On the other hand it probably also does Remain's head in too. If leave said we want X we'd be bomabarded by nonsense that X means automatic death, penury and a Jimmy Savile in every home.
Is wrestling fog harder to deal with than a clear position ?
Whereas if we vote Remain we will all have half a dozen Turks living in our spare rooms by Christmas
It is undoubtedly easier to obfuscate and disagreements in the Leave camp have been easier to paper over by adopting that approach but a disciplined campaign in favour of a clear option would have had a better chance of success.
On balance yes. but since theres no coherent message from Leave Remain by definition will struggle to issue a coherent rebuttal/ It's probably why theye making up so much crap , Long term the Tories are doing themselves damage by association.
Leave must leave the Turkey story behind, and move on to immigration. Why? Firstly, because it's not true. Secondly, every second that is spent on a non-story like this, is a second that is wasted by our campaign
If we are going to win this, we need to be focused and disciplined. Turkey joining in 2026, presumably following Greece and Cyprus leaving the EU, is just not a story that resonates with voters.
If we want to include it, saion work.
PB is full of clever, right-wing, intellectual people who are motivated by the legal and philosophical case for Brexit.
However, out in the country as a whole, the only majority for LEAVE involves people who are agitated by Muslims and foreigners, and who can be convinced that Muslims are a more clear and present danger than what the boffins say about the economy. It is a low-return and high-risk strategy, but perhaps that means it is the only one that can possibly work.
I have always felt that EFTA/EEA was a sensible destination. Contrary to the claims of many, it would enable sensible regulation of immigation (and through the price mechanism, rather than some absurd system of quotas). It would take us out of EU regulation of (for Sunil and Sandy) railways. It would preserve access to the Single Market and Passporting for financial services. And it would massively diminish the bills to the Treasury.
In other words, it would be popular with small business because leaving would not entail much risk.
Many of the x thousand pounds claims would simply not be possible if EFTA/EEA were the destination.
It does my head in that Leave can't get a coherent alternative.
On the other hand it probably also does Remain's head in too. If leave said we want X we'd be bomabarded by nonsense that X means automatic death, penury and a Jimmy Savile in every home.
Is wrestling fog harder to deal with than a clear position ?
Whereas if we vote Remain we will all have half a dozen Turks living in our spare rooms by Christmas
It is undoubtedly easier to obfuscate and disagreements in the Leave camp have been easier to paper over by adopting that approach but a disciplined campaign in favour of a clear option would have had a better chance of success.
On balance yes. but since theres no coherent message from Leave Remain by definition will struggle to issue a coherent rebuttal/ It's probably why theye making up so much crap , Long term the Tories are doing themselves damage by association.
I didn't watch Peston earlier. Did Cameron really say this? The guy has really lost his marbles if he did.
Asked if the UK would be "stronger, safer and better off" in the EU under Labour or out under the Tories the Prime Minister said the Europe vote is the more important decision.
I'm not sure that his sort of stuff is going to cut through any more.
Are they trying to say Cameron is a moron who would have campaigned for a long recession if he didn't get bugger all from the EU? The voters are not stupid*
*Well, some of them aren't.
As it's a treasury forecast, is there a betting market on the number of "coulds', 'ifs' or 'maybes' in it?
Right so paddy can't manage a piss up in a brewery. Maybe you should invade the place and show the thickies how to do things.
That's not what I meant and, with respect, it was obvious that that was not what I meant.
As long as the Ireland/Northern Ireland border remains porous, then neither Dublin nor London can claim to control their borders. This situation has only kept going because historically movement across the border has been by people with a British or Irish passport.
LEAVE claims that Brexit will enable the Brits to control their borders. But the Ireland/Northern Ireland border is uncontrolled - there's a motorway running thru it. Following a Brexit, I assume people in the EU that wish to enter the UK but are denied would instead take advantage of that porous border and travel to the UK via Ireland. Ireland would at that point have choices: tune its entry policy to match the UK's (at which point it's operating a UK-border-by-proxy, which will irk) or operate a different one (in which case there will be gaps, and we're back to the beginning)
If you imply racism again I will simply repeat this point.
Right so paddy can't manage a piss up in a brewery. Maybe you should invade the place and show the thickies how to do things.
That's not what I meant and, with respect, it was obvious that that was not what I meant.
As long as the Ireland/Northern Ireland border remains porous, then neither Dublin nor London can claim to control their borders. This situation has only kept going because historically movement across the border has been by people with a British or Irish passport.
LEAVE claims that Brexit will enable the Brits to control their borders. But the Ireland/Northern Ireland border is uncontrolled - there's a motorway running thru it. Following a Brexit, I assume people in the EU that wish to enter the UK but are denied would instead take advantage of that porous border and travel to the UK via Ireland. Ireland would at that point have choices: tune its entry policy to match the UK's (at which point it's operating a UK-border-by-proxy, which will irk) or operate a different one (in which case there will be gaps, and we're back to the beginning)
If you imply racism again I will simply repeat this point.
Both countries are islands. They both protect their borders in the same way. If only a percentage of the immigrant "tsunami" stopped in Ireland ir would fk the economy.
Why is it so hard for the English to accept that the Irish don't want mass immigration ?
The whole talk about recession smacks of short-termism. What about the long term outlook/vision for the country, which surely should be the focus of the debate.
Right so paddy can't manage a piss up in a brewery. Maybe you should invade the place and show the thickies how to do things.
That's not what I meant and, with respect, it was obvious that that was not what I meant.
As long as the Ireland/Northern Ireland border remains porous, then neither Dublin nor London can claim to control their borders. This situation has only kept going because historically movement across the border has been by people with a British or Irish passport.
LEAVE claims that Brexit will enable the Brits to control their borders. But the Ireland/Northern Ireland border is uncontrolled - there's a motorway running thru it. Following a Brexit, I assume people in the EU that wish to enter the UK but are denied would instead take advantage of that porous border and travel to the UK via Ireland. Ireland would at that point have choices: tune its entry policy to match the UK's (at which point it's operating a UK-border-by-proxy, which will irk) or operate a different one (in which case there will be gaps, and we're back to the beginning)
If you imply racism again I will simply repeat this point.
Both countries are islands. They both protect their borders in the same way. If only a percentage of the immigrant "tsunami" stopped in Ireland ir would fk the economy.
Why is it so hard for the English to accept that the Irish don't want mass immigration ?
I've always thought the Irish liked mass immigration in Ireland, they loved the mass English immigration to Ireland, after all it had been blessed by the Bishop of Rome.
We are a bigger market for their manufactured goods than all the other EU countries combined, and we take nearly half of all their food produce and livestock exports as well.
Most of Ireland's European "partners" are a complete trading irrelevance.
I would guess that this would lead to real risks for the Eurozone if Ireland was caught in their currency whilst needing our custom post Brexit.
That's true and not true. Before Corib came on steam, the Irish were dependent on imports from the UK. But, the gas they bought was transshipped from Norway. So, it counts as export to the EU and imports from out the EU in the UK national accounts.
The FT headline has been foreshadowed for weeks. @RichardNabavi noted we could expect this at least three weeks ago.
Did he write it ?
I doubt it. It only took the ability to read to see what was coming.
If Leave aren't prepared for this, it is even more of a shambles than I thought.
If Leave aren't prepared for the forthcoming Remain campaign focus on the NHS, they are a right shambles
REMAIN will win, but are REMAIN prepared for the revenge that will follow? The contempt and disgust of the British people, bullied into voting for an EU they dislike? The absolute loathing of Tory activists, members, supports, needing to vent their self hatred and shame?
It will be bitter and bloody and savage. Cameron and Osborne will be hate-figures for decades. I don't think they begin to comprehend how they are now viewed, nor the other Tory quislings, like yourself.
And your abject referendum isn't even won yet.
I find your lack of faith in the UK electorate disturbing.
Do you honestly think the UK public can be bullied?
The FT headline has been foreshadowed for weeks. @RichardNabavi noted we could expect this at least three weeks ago.
Did he write it ?
I doubt it. It only took the ability to read to see what was coming.
If Leave aren't prepared for this, it is even more of a shambles than I thought.
If Leave aren't prepared for the forthcoming Remain campaign focus on the NHS, they are a right shambles
REMAIN will win, but are REMAIN prepared for the revenge that will follow? The contempt and disgust of the British people, bullied into voting for an EU they dislike? The absolute loathing of Tory activists, members, supports, needing to vent their self hatred and shame?
It will be bitter and bloody and savage. Cameron and Osborne will be hate-figures for decades. I don't think they begin to comprehend how they are now viewed, nor the other Tory quislings, like yourself.
And your abject referendum isn't even won yet.
Yup
Cameron's problem is he will win the referendum but not the argument.
He had to do both and failed. Tory blood letting is always fascinating to watch.
I think it's a good ad - it contrasts very pleasingly with the stupid hyperbole that's become the norm for this referendum.
I don't think it matters what it's really saying. It sounds like a balanced judgment from a sensible bloke. (Which, actually, I don't think describes Mr Corbyn - but that won't matter to most people.)
The FT headline has been foreshadowed for weeks. @RichardNabavi noted we could expect this at least three weeks ago.
Did he write it ?
I doubt it. It only took the ability to read to see what was coming.
If Leave aren't prepared for this, it is even more of a shambles than I thought.
If Leave aren't prepared for the forthcoming Remain campaign focus on the NHS, they are a right shambles
REMAIN will win, but are REMAIN prepared for the revenge that will follow? The contempt and disgust of the British people, bullied into voting for an EU they dislike? The absolute loathing of Tory activists, members, supports, needing to vent their self hatred and shame?
It will be bitter and bloody and savage. Cameron and Osborne will be hate-figures for decades. I don't think they begin to comprehend how they are now viewed, nor the other Tory quislings, like yourself.
The FT headline has been foreshadowed for weeks. @RichardNabavi noted we could expect this at least three weeks ago.
Did he write it ?
I doubt it. It only took the ability to read to see what was coming.
If Leave aren't prepared for this, it is even more of a shambles than I thought.
If Leave aren't prepared for the forthcoming Remain campaign focus on the NHS, they are a right shambles
REMAIN will win, but are REMAIN prepared for the revenge that will follow? The contempt and disgust of the British people, bullied into voting for an EU they dislike? The absolute loathing of Tory activists, members, supports, needing to vent their self hatred and shame?
It will be bitter and bloody and savage. Cameron and Osborne will be hate-figures for decades. I don't think they begin to comprehend how they are now viewed, nor the other Tory quislings, like yourself.
And your abject referendum isn't even won yet.
Yup
Cameron's problem is he will win the referendum but not the argument.
He had to do both and failed. Tory blood letting is always fascinating to watch.
To misuse a phrase: Cameron is in the tent, pissing in.
I think it's a good ad - it contrasts very pleasingly with the stupid hyperbole that's become the norm for this referendum.
I don't think it matters what it's really saying. It sounds like a balanced judgment from a sensible bloke. (Which, actually, I don't think describes Mr Corbyn - but that won't matter to most pople.)
Makes you wonder how we got any "change" before being in the EU
The FT headline has been foreshadowed for weeks. @RichardNabavi noted we could expect this at least three weeks ago.
Did he write it ?
I doubt it. It only took the ability to read to see what was coming.
If Leave aren't prepared for this, it is even more of a shambles than I thought.
If Leave aren't prepared for the forthcoming Remain campaign focus on the NHS, they are a right shambles
REMAIN will win, but are REMAIN prepared for the revenge that will follow? The contempt and disgust of the British people, bullied into voting for an EU they dislike? The absolute loathing of Tory activists, members, supports, needing to vent their self hatred and shame?
It will be bitter and bloody and savage. Cameron and Osborne will be hate-figures for decades. I don't think they begin to comprehend how they are now viewed, nor the other Tory quislings, like yourself.
And your abject referendum isn't even won yet.
I find your lack of faith in the UK electorate disturbing.
Do you honestly think the UK public can be bullied?
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
The leaders are irrelevant . The facts are important but the fear of the Unknown will determine the result which will be close and if Leave do not win it will not be the end because the EU is falling apart . Politicians have destroyed what could have been a good economic structure.
Right so paddy can't manage a piss up in a brewery. Maybe you should invade the place and show the thickies how to do things.
That's not what I meant and, with respect, it was obvious that that was not what I meant.
As long as the Ireland/Northern Ireland border remains porous, then neither Dublin nor London can claim to control their borders. This situation has only kept going because historically movement across the border has been by people with a British or Irish passport.
LEAVE claims that Brexit will enable the Brits to control their borders. But the Ireland/Northern Ireland border is uncontrolled - there's a motorway running thru it. Following a Brexit, I assume people in the EU that wish to enter the UK but are denied would instead take advantage of that porous border and travel to the UK via Ireland. Ireland would at that point have choices: tune its entry policy to match the UK's (at which point it's operating a UK-border-by-proxy, which will irk) or operate a different one (in which case there will be gaps, and we're back to the beginning)
If you imply racism again I will simply repeat this point.
Both countries are islands. They both protect their borders in the same way. If only a percentage of the immigrant "tsunami" stopped in Ireland ir would fk the economy.
Why is it so hard for the English to accept that the Irish don't want mass immigration ?
Are you saying Ireland may also leave the EU? As things stand any EU citizen can live and work in Ireland. Post-Brexit, if the open border remains that means any EU citizen will be able to travel free, unfettered and unchecked into the UK. That is not sustainable.
The Leave position on Turkey just seems totally bizarre to me. Apparently every single Turk intends to descend on Scunthorpe, Blackpool and Rhyl, because life in Bodrum is just so... Meh. Even if Turkey just became uninhabitable, no Turk would want to go anywhere else, other than Basildon or Swindon. It is obvious bolleux, yet they repeat this stuff ad nauseam. In a way, I can see their point of view, because, of course, Boris is part Turkish.
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
I don't dispute that Leave is a shambles but Remain are not treating this as an important debate, they are merely spinning like tops.
The problem is that many can see through the spin and laugh at it whilst others get angry.
It could be worse. Remain could win and something go horribly wrong like us having to bail out Greece etc.
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
Believe you me, I am frustrated with the Leave campaign.
I wrote to them almost three months ago predicting all of this.
Right so paddy can't manage a piss up in a brewery. Maybe you should invade the place and show the thickies how to do things.
That's not what I meant and, with respect, it was obvious that that was not what I meant.
As long as the Ireland/Northern Ireland border remains porous, then neither Dublin nor London can claim to control their borders. This situation has only kept going because historically movement across the border has been by people with a British or Irish passport.
LEAVE claims that Brexit will enable the Brits to control their borders. But the Ireland/Northern Ireland border is uncontrolled - there's a motorway running thru it. Following a Brexit, I assume people in the EU that wish to enter the UK but are denied would instead take advantage of that porous border and travel to the UK via Ireland. Ireland would at that point have choices: tune its entry policy to match the UK's (at which point it's operating a UK-border-by-proxy, which will irk) or operate a different one (in which case there will be gaps, and we're back to the beginning)
If you imply racism again I will simply repeat this point.
Both countries are islands. They both protect their borders in the same way. If only a percentage of the immigrant "tsunami" stopped in Ireland ir would fk the economy.
Why is it so hard for the English to accept that the Irish don't want mass immigration ?
Are you saying Ireland may also leave the EU? As things stand any EU citizen can live and work in Ireland. Post-Brexit, if the open border remains that means any EU citizen will be able to travel free, unfettered and unchecked into the UK. That is not sustainable.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain. If you have an EU (non-Irish) passport, then you don't get to waltz past the border.
The Leave position on Turkey just seems totally bizarre to me. Apparently every single Turk intends to descend on Scunthorpe, Blackpool and Rhyl, because life in Bodrum is just so... Meh. Even if Turkey just became uninhabitable, no Turk would want to go anywhere else, other than Basildon or Swindon. It is obvious bolleux, yet they repeat this stuff ad nauseam. In a way, I can see their point of view, because, of course, Boris is part Turkish.
Leave are in danger of doing a Zac Goldsmith, and losing with dishonour.
The Leave position on Turkey just seems totally bizarre to me. Apparently every single Turk intends to descend on Scunthorpe, Blackpool and Rhyl, because life in Bodrum is just so... Meh. Even if Turkey just became uninhabitable, no Turk would want to go anywhere else, other than Basildon or Swindon. It is obvious bolleux, yet they repeat this stuff ad nauseam. In a way, I can see their point of view, because, of course, Boris is part Turkish.
Just look what happened during the last phases of EU expansion.
The Leave position on Turkey just seems totally bizarre to me. Apparently every single Turk intends to descend on Scunthorpe, Blackpool and Rhyl, because life in Bodrum is just so... Meh. Even if Turkey just became uninhabitable, no Turk would want to go anywhere else, other than Basildon or Swindon. It is obvious bolleux, yet they repeat this stuff ad nauseam. In a way, I can see their point of view, because, of course, Boris is part Turkish.
Leave are in danger of doing a Zac Goldsmith, and losing with dishonour.
Obvious wind up/ Kowtow Cameron has to face the music post the vote.
The Leave position on Turkey just seems totally bizarre to me. Apparently every single Turk intends to descend on Scunthorpe, Blackpool and Rhyl, because life in Bodrum is just so... Meh. Even if Turkey just became uninhabitable, no Turk would want to go anywhere else, other than Basildon or Swindon. It is obvious bolleux, yet they repeat this stuff ad nauseam. In a way, I can see their point of view, because, of course, Boris is part Turkish.
If Turkey did join the EU, there's no doubt in my mind that we'd see immigration in the hundreds of thousands from Turkey to the UK, and possibly even into seven figures.
The objection Leave should have made to Turkish membership is that it's UK Government policy, and has been for many years, not that we don't have any veto.
But, if it gets serious, Cameron will just promise another future referendum on Turkish membership anyway, which will never need to be called, so I don't see it as a massively profitable line of attack.
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
Believe you me, I am frustrated with the Leave campaign.
I wrote to them almost three months ago predicting all of this.
I can sympathise. If Leave win it will be despite not because of its campaign.
The Remain campaign has been uninspired but efficient and well-drilled.
Both sides have offered more heat than light. This is a problem for David Cameron even if Remain wins because many Leavers will forget their own mendacities and dwell on Remain's. There will be a dark brooding.
Right so paddy can't manage a piss up in a brewery. Maybe you should invade the place and show the thickies how to do things.
That's not what I meant and, with respect, it was obvious that that was not what I meant.
As long as the Ireland/Northern Ireland border remains porous, then neither Dublin nor London can claim to control their borders. This situation has only kept going because historically movement across the border has been by people with a British or Irish passport.
LEAVE claims that Brexit will enable the Brits to control their borders. But the Ireland/Northern Ireland border is uncontrolled - there's a motorway running thru it. Following a Brexit, I assume people in the EU that wish to enter the UK but are denied would instead take advantage of that porous border and travel to the UK via Ireland. Ireland would at that point have choices: tune its entry policy to match the UK's (at which point it's operating a UK-border-by-proxy, which will irk) or operate a different one (in which case there will be gaps, and we're back to the beginning)
If you imply racism again I will simply repeat this point.
Both countries are islands. They both protect their borders in the same way. If only a percentage of the immigrant "tsunami" stopped in Ireland ir would fk the economy.
Why is it so hard for the English to accept that the Irish don't want mass immigration ?
Are you saying Ireland may also leave the EU? As things stand any EU citizen can live and work in Ireland. Post-Brexit, if the open border remains that means any EU citizen will be able to travel free, unfettered and unchecked into the UK. That is not sustainable.
Ireland isn't in Schengen it has the same opt out as the UK.
I didn't watch Peston earlier. Did Cameron really say this? The guy has really lost his marbles if he did.
Asked if the UK would be "stronger, safer and better off" in the EU under Labour or out under the Tories the Prime Minister said the Europe vote is the more important decision.
Cameron's lack of a set of beliefs and principles continues.
"“I feel about a thousand times more strongly about our United Kingdom than I do about the European Union,” Cameron told BBC radio when asked about a statement he would have been heartbroken to see Scotland leave the United Kingdom. Cameron said his preference was for Britain to stay in a reformed EU after a new settlement with Brussels, but said that the relationship was not working. When asked whether it would break his heart to see a British EU exit, he said: “The United Kingdom was an issue of heartbreak. This is a matter of important pragmatism. What is best for our United Kingdom? How do we get the best deal for Britain? That is what I feel strongly about.”"
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
Believe you me, I am frustrated with the Leave campaign.
I wrote to them almost three months ago predicting all of this.
I can sympathise. If Leave win it will be despite not because of its campaign.
The Remain campaign has been uninspired but efficient and well-drilled.
Both sides have offered more heat than light. This is a problem for David Cameron even if Remain wins because many Leavers will forget their own mendacities and dwell on Remain's. There will be a dark brooding.
Cameron has obviously taken the wrong lesson from the Scottish referendum. Were UKIP to do half of what the SNP managed.... Or even a quarter.
What he didn't say is if you vote to stay in you can't get rid of whoever is running the EU.
I want him gone.
What I can't get over is why are him and Osborne doing this Samson act on their own party. Yes, they will probably win their referendum, but at what price?
I can't begin to understand the hardcore Leaver mentality. Before the campaign proper started, they told us that it was the most important vote in 1,000 years.
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
Believe you me, I am frustrated with the Leave campaign.
I wrote to them almost three months ago predicting all of this.
I can sympathise. If Leave win it will be despite not because of its campaign.
The Remain campaign has been uninspired but efficient and well-drilled.
Both sides have offered more heat than light. This is a problem for David Cameron even if Remain wins because many Leavers will forget their own mendacities and dwell on Remain's. There will be a dark brooding.
Cameron has obviously taken the wrong lesson from the Scottish referendum. Were UKIP to do half of what the SNP managed.... Or even a quarter.
Hating the EU is a niche interest and most of those for whom it is a top priority already vote UKIP.
The risk is more that the Conservative Parliamentary party will remain in the anarchy where it currently resides.
The Leave position on Turkey just seems totally bizarre to me. Apparently every single Turk intends to descend on Scunthorpe, Blackpool and Rhyl, because life in Bodrum is just so... Meh. Even if Turkey just became uninhabitable, no Turk would want to go anywhere else, other than Basildon or Swindon. It is obvious bolleux, yet they repeat this stuff ad nauseam. In a way, I can see their point of view, because, of course, Boris is part Turkish.
If Turkey did join the EU, there's no doubt in my mind that we'd see immigration in the hundreds of thousands from Turkey to the UK, and possibly even into seven figures.
The objection Leave should have made to Turkish membership is that it's UK Government policy, and has been for many years, not that we don't have any veto.
But, if it gets serious, Cameron will just promise another future referendum on Turkish membership anyway, which will never need to be called, so I don't see it as a massively profitable line of attack.
I think a million Turk net inflow is a decent starter for ten given the relative population and immigration of Poles/Bulgarians/Romanians.
Perhaps over four years or so, maybe three or even two and a half.
Comments
Any ideas svp apart from the fact that Microsoft is crap ?
TA
SR
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/ireland-s-energy-crisis-1.2111299
We are a bigger market for their manufactured goods than all the other EU countries combined, and we take nearly half of all their food produce and livestock exports as well.
Most of Ireland's European "partners" are a complete trading irrelevance.
I would guess that this would lead to real risks for the Eurozone if Ireland was caught in their currency whilst needing our custom post Brexit.
PS As an Irishman you'll love 'Sing Street'. A fab Irish film out now.
Following a Brexit the porousness of the Ireland/Northern Ireland border becomes quite a problem . LEAVE's insistence that Brexit is necessary for border control congenitally ignores this problem ("we are an island nation", "the border is the Channel", "we are the people of England who have not spoken yet"). Roger's point that everybody in the EU can legally go to Dublin, drive to Belfast, ferry to Liverpool, train to London and unless the Brits instal checkpoints there is f**k all they can do to stop it.
The Common Travel Area only continues to exist because the Continent->Dublin->Belfast route is little used. What happens when every refo in the EU looks at a map?
My worry is that it won't, at least not sufficiently
30-day median (one week ago)
Clinton National Lead 4.0% (6.0%)
Swing State: Minnesota (North Carolina)
Meta Margin: 5.0% (6.0%)
Trump State Gains Required: 7 (8)
It is undoubtedly easier to obfuscate and disagreements in the Leave camp have been easier to paper over by adopting that approach but a disciplined campaign in favour of a clear option would have had a better chance of success.
https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/734465814938685441
https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/734466160243159040
2/10
* Q Purpose of journey?
* A Tourism. I have friends in Sligo...
36 hours later, he's in Oxford Street...
Maybe you should invade the place and show the thickies how to do things.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/734471846393982976
Did Cameron really say this?
The guy has really lost his marbles if he did.
Asked if the UK would be "stronger, safer and better off" in the EU under Labour or out under the Tories the Prime Minister said the Europe vote is the more important decision.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/22/tory-fury-as-david-cameron-suggests-labour-government-in-europe/
Are they trying to say Cameron is a moron who would have campaigned for a long recession if he didn't get bugger all from the EU? The voters are not stupid*
*Well, some of them aren't.
Saw some nonsense from Labour, stay in for reform to EU.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6KwNnbBO1q4dDwC1r0rujdcNByLHpVI1O2WKpzNfV8/edit?usp=sharing
https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/734453805262082048
"stay in for reform to EU"
Anyone who believes this is either (a) lying, or (b) living in denial.
Take your pick.
If Leave aren't prepared for this, it is even more of a shambles than I thought.
At least it was credible.
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/734461493694070784
What he didn't say is if you vote to stay in you can't get rid of whoever is running the EU.
As long as the Ireland/Northern Ireland border remains porous, then neither Dublin nor London can claim to control their borders. This situation has only kept going because historically movement across the border has been by people with a British or Irish passport.
LEAVE claims that Brexit will enable the Brits to control their borders. But the Ireland/Northern Ireland border is uncontrolled - there's a motorway running thru it. Following a Brexit, I assume people in the EU that wish to enter the UK but are denied would instead take advantage of that porous border and travel to the UK via Ireland. Ireland would at that point have choices: tune its entry policy to match the UK's (at which point it's operating a UK-border-by-proxy, which will irk) or operate a different one (in which case there will be gaps, and we're back to the beginning)
If you imply racism again I will simply repeat this point.
It assumes a 12% fall in the value of the pound. Presumably on June 24th and doesn't change after.
Oh And the £220 is the difference after TWO years.
Peter Pan Politics.
Why is it so hard for the English to accept that the Irish don't want mass immigration ?
if they're all such a shambles why aren#t Remain 40 points ahead ? Could it be they're also a shower of shite ?
Do you honestly think the UK public can be bullied?
Cameron's problem is he will win the referendum but not the argument.
He had to do both and failed. Tory blood letting is always fascinating to watch.
I don't think it matters what it's really saying. It sounds like a balanced judgment from a sensible bloke. (Which, actually, I don't think describes Mr Corbyn - but that won't matter to most people.)
(edited for spelling)
To misuse a phrase: Cameron is in the tent, pissing in.
It's not going to end well.
Why is it that a bunch of incoherent nutters is making your life difficult ?
And then they are appalled that their opponents treat it with the same importance.
The problem is that many can see through the spin and laugh at it whilst others get angry.
It could be worse. Remain could win and something go horribly wrong like us having to bail out Greece etc.
I wrote to them almost three months ago predicting all of this.
There can still be border checks for people coming from NI into Britain. If you have an EU (non-Irish) passport, then you don't get to waltz past the border.
Kowtow Cameron has to face the music post the vote.
The objection Leave should have made to Turkish membership is that it's UK Government policy, and has been for many years, not that we don't have any veto.
But, if it gets serious, Cameron will just promise another future referendum on Turkish membership anyway, which will never need to be called, so I don't see it as a massively profitable line of attack.
The Remain campaign has been uninspired but efficient and well-drilled.
Both sides have offered more heat than light. This is a problem for David Cameron even if Remain wins because many Leavers will forget their own mendacities and dwell on Remain's. There will be a dark brooding.
"“I feel about a thousand times more strongly about our United Kingdom than I do about the European Union,” Cameron told BBC radio when asked about a statement he would have been heartbroken to see Scotland leave the United Kingdom.
Cameron said his preference was for Britain to stay in a reformed EU after a new settlement with Brussels, but said that the relationship was not working.
When asked whether it would break his heart to see a British EU exit, he said: “The United Kingdom was an issue of heartbreak. This is a matter of important pragmatism. What is best for our United Kingdom? How do we get the best deal for Britain? That is what I feel strongly about.”"
http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/uk-about-a-thousand-times-more-important-to-cameron-than-eu/
Yes, they will probably win their referendum, but at what price?
The risk is more that the Conservative Parliamentary party will remain in the anarchy where it currently resides.
Perhaps over four years or so, maybe three or even two and a half.