Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
chortle
I seem to remember Blair had quite a broad coalition.
He interpreted it as meaning he could do what he damned well liked.
Misplaced optimism Mr N.
You know me, I'm Mr Optimistic!
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
No need to worry Richard, McDonnell will have the moderating influence of the SNP as he secures largest party status against George Osborne in 2025.
What also worries me about the current Remain campaign is that if a Tory Leaver ever became PM, there may be enough, err, people in the Parliamentary party to cross the floor and lead a "unity government" or "grand coalition" that would ensure we stayed in the EU. Some MPs have shows that their loyalty doesn't lie with this country, but instead with Brussels. Obviously the PM doesn't fit that category, but there are some Tories who I'm beginning to wonder about.
OK, doubtless Ken Clarke tops your list, but after him....?
Osborne.
I'd like that. I'd like the europhiliac rump to p*ss off and find their natural political home in a new Mandelson/Osborne/Cameron/Tony party. If they and their supporters think they're the only thing lending the Tories some sort of suave electability, then they should do fine finding themselves a mass following.
What also worries me about the current Remain campaign is that if a Tory Leaver ever became PM, there may be enough, err, people in the Parliamentary party to cross the floor and lead a "unity government" or "grand coalition" that would ensure we stayed in the EU. Some MPs have shows that their loyalty doesn't lie with this country, but instead with Brussels. Obviously the PM doesn't fit that category, but there are some Tories who I'm beginning to wonder about.
OK, doubtless Ken Clarke tops your list, but after him....?
Osborne.
I guessed it would be. Sorry, mate, you are becoming seriously unhinged and I didn't think I would ever say that to you.
And to assuage your doomladen scenario. Not a chance. If Remain win comfortably, then it's quite possible, perhaps probable, that a Leave supporter will become party leader (e.g. if Gove were a candidate, I'd seriously think of giving him my vote). But the condition would have to be that he accepted the result of the referendum - the people's expressed will - and not seek to overturn it for a generation (as they say these days).
Such a PM would have the inestimable advantage of being up to stand robustly for the UK's interests within the EU.
Ever the optimist JohnO
But the first thing he will be hit with is the next EU crisis and then what ? You've voted in so your bluff has been called, the UKs interest won't count. It's all communautaire by then mon vieux.
What also worries me about the current Remain campaign is that if a Tory Leaver ever became PM, there may be enough, err, people in the Parliamentary party to cross the floor and lead a "unity government" or "grand coalition" that would ensure we stayed in the EU. Some MPs have shows that their loyalty doesn't lie with this country, but instead with Brussels. Obviously the PM doesn't fit that category, but there are some Tories who I'm beginning to wonder about.
Max it seems you are getting a teensy weensy bit hyperbolic, not to say tinfoil hat-ish?
I promise you it is perfectly possible to be loyal to the UK and believe that on balance it is best to remain in the EU. Look on it as a club where all your bessie mates go to drink but you have to wear a suit and tie, which you hate doing; or use FIFA as an analogy if you want: ideally we wouldn't have started from here, but here we are and it works in its way. Certainly better than any alternative.
Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
chortle
I seem to remember Blair had quite a broad coalition.
He interpreted it as meaning he could do what he damned well liked.
Misplaced optimism Mr N.
You know me, I'm Mr Optimistic!
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
Not to worry: Brookie's personal manservant, aka Cedric the Forklift Driver, is managing the industrial empire with flair and vim. No constant whinger is our Cedric.
Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
chortle
I seem to remember Blair had quite a broad coalition.
He interpreted it as meaning he could do what he damned well liked.
Misplaced optimism Mr N.
You know me, I'm Mr Optimistic!
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
were having our third recession in 8 years - two of them George's.
I need to recharge the batteries as it will be tough going for the next year or so.
Surely the main difference between Kippers and Eurosceptic or right-wing Tories is that the latter actually want to get into government so they can implement some of their policies?
Apparently not. The Eurosceptic or right-wing Tories are implacably opposed to Cameron. For winning. Twice.
But winning to what point or purpose, Mr. P? That is a question I hear from Conservatives who are not particularly right-wing or even Eurosceptic. What is the point of working to get a Conservative government elected when what you get is a continuation of what the last Labour government was doing?
This is right. The unfortunate fact is both main parties are made up of a coalition beween careerists/opportunists/pragmatists and those with actually believe in some kind of conservatism or socialism. Unfortunately much of the hard grunt at least away from the metropolis is done by the latter group. Once you've pissed them off the party has problems. Labour have already experienced this hence Corbyn.
The careerist, "they've nowhere else to go" mantra only works for a while, eventually they go looking and find it.
What also worries me about the current Remain campaign is that if a Tory Leaver ever became PM, there may be enough, err, people in the Parliamentary party to cross the floor and lead a "unity government" or "grand coalition" that would ensure we stayed in the EU. Some MPs have shows that their loyalty doesn't lie with this country, but instead with Brussels. Obviously the PM doesn't fit that category, but there are some Tories who I'm beginning to wonder about.
Max it seems you are getting a teensy weensy bit hyperbolic, not to say tinfoil hat-ish?
I promise you it is perfectly possible to be loyal to the UK and believe that on balance it is best to remain in the EU. Look on it as a club where all your bessie mates go to drink but you have to wear a suit and tie, which you hate doing; or use FIFA as an analogy if you want: ideally we wouldn't have started from here, but here we are and it works in its way. Certainly better than any alternative.
FIFA, like the EU, needs to be disbanded, its members decide what it's supposed to be for and how it should go about it from scratch.
Surely the main difference between Kippers and Eurosceptic or right-wing Tories is that the latter actually want to get into government so they can implement some of their policies?
Apparently not. The Eurosceptic or right-wing Tories are implacably opposed to Cameron. For winning. Twice.
But winning to what point or purpose, Mr. P? That is a question I hear from Conservatives who are not particularly right-wing or even Eurosceptic. What is the point of working to get a Conservative government elected when what you get is a continuation of what the last Labour government was doing?
This is right. The unfortunate fact is both main parties are made up of a coalition beween careerists/opportunists/pragmatists and those with actually believe in some kind of conservatism or socialism. Unfortunately much of the hard grunt at least away from the metropolis is done by the latter group. Once you've pissed them off the party has problems. Labour have already experienced this hence Corbyn.
The careerist, "they've nowhere else to go" mantra only works for a while, eventually they go looking and find it.
UKIP is much bigger than almost any of us expected, it's just voter inefficiency that kills them.
Sandy Rentool..You need to get out of London more often..oop North is still using yesterdays papers..big blocks of unopened Guardians dropped off..unopened newsprint is probably the most hygienic wrapper of all..untouched by human hand.
Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
chortle
I seem to remember Blair had quite a broad coalition.
He interpreted it as meaning he could do what he damned well liked.
Misplaced optimism Mr N.
You know me, I'm Mr Optimistic!
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
Not to worry: Brookie's personal manservant, aka Cedric the Forklift Driver, is managing the industrial empire with flair and vim. No constant whinger is our Cedric.
JohnO I had you down as a street fighting man of the people, instead I discover you're an effete Oxonian. It's like finding out you french kiss camels.
What also worries me about the current Remain campaign is that if a Tory Leaver ever became PM, there may be enough, err, people in the Parliamentary party to cross the floor and lead a "unity government" or "grand coalition" that would ensure we stayed in the EU. Some MPs have shows that their loyalty doesn't lie with this country, but instead with Brussels. Obviously the PM doesn't fit that category, but there are some Tories who I'm beginning to wonder about.
Max it seems you are getting a teensy weensy bit hyperbolic, not to say tinfoil hat-ish?
I promise you it is perfectly possible to be loyal to the UK and believe that on balance it is best to remain in the EU. Look on it as a club where all your bessie mates go to drink but you have to wear a suit and tie, which you hate doing; or use FIFA as an analogy if you want: ideally we wouldn't have started from here, but here we are and it works in its way. Certainly better than any alternative.
FIFA, like the EU, needs to be disbanded, its members decide what it's supposed to be for and how it should go about it from scratch.
Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
chortle
I seem to remember Blair had quite a broad coalition.
He interpreted it as meaning he could do what he damned well liked.
Misplaced optimism Mr N.
You know me, I'm Mr Optimistic!
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
Not to worry: Brookie's personal manservant, aka Cedric the Forklift Driver, is managing the industrial empire with flair and vim. No constant whinger is our Cedric.
JohnO I had you down as a street fighting man of the people, instead I discover you're an effete Oxonian. It's like finding out you french kiss camels.
I make sure I get there early and get a pretty one.
What's this about the Guardian closing? I've had a huge migraine today and haven't been following the news so much?
It is far from confirmed. It is a tweet from Toby Young saying he heard a rumour. But then there was a rumour 4-5 years ago that was reported in the Telegraph and nothing came of that either.
Sandy Rentool..You need to get out of London more often..oop North is still using yesterdays papers..big blocks of unopened Guardians dropped off..unopened newsprint is probably the most hygienic wrapper of all..untouched by human hand.
Hygienic but poisonous? I wouldn't want to consume the ink.
Sandy Rentool..You need to get out of London more often..oop North is still using yesterdays papers..big blocks of unopened Guardians dropped off..unopened newsprint is probably the most hygienic wrapper of all..untouched by human hand.
London, me? I've just moved south to Yorkshire! (And they only sell haddock, never cod)
Guardian closing ..chaos in the Fish and Chip industry..what the hell will they use for wrapping paper
Ah well by one of those fortuitous coincidences it was made illegal to wrap fish and chips in newspaper by the EU in 1986 under directives 86/388/EEC, updated by 89/109/EEC and regulation 1935/2004
Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
chortle
I seem to remember Blair had quite a broad coalition.
He interpreted it as meaning he could do what he damned well liked.
Misplaced optimism Mr N.
You know me, I'm Mr Optimistic!
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
Not to worry: Brookie's personal manservant, aka Cedric the Forklift Driver, is managing the industrial empire with flair and vim. No constant whinger is our Cedric.
JohnO I had you down as a street fighting man of the people, instead I discover you're an effete Oxonian. It's like finding out you french kiss camels.
I make sure I get there early and get a pretty one.
I guessed it would be. Sorry, mate, you are becoming seriously unhinged and I didn't think I would ever say that to you.
And to assuage your doomladen scenario. Not a chance. If Remain win comfortably, then it's quite possible, perhaps probable, that a Leave supporter will become party leader (e.g. if Gove were a candidate, I'd seriously think of giving him my vote). But the condition would have to be that he accepted the result of the referendum - the people's expressed will - and not seek to overturn it for a generation (as they say these days).
Such a PM would have the inestimable advantage of being up to stand robustly for the UK's interests within the EU.
In the event that the EU just carries on as normal and forces us into all of the ever closer union rulings coming out of the ECJ (i.e. it becomes clear that our opt-out is meaningless) and the political integration continues unabated the case for a new referendum becomes much more obvious.
I can see where you are coming from, but if, say, PM Patel in 2019 after our deal has been given some kind of legal status goes to an EU summit for a new EU Army. Naturally she stands up for our interests and vetoes it. The EU takes our veto to the ECJ and overturns our veto under the remit of "ever closer union of the European people" and our opt-out is found to be in basic violation of the Treaty of Rome. Does PM Patel call another referendum, she is an avowed outer, how does the rest of the party react, those who have recently fought so hard for a Remain victory?
I can't see any future for this country in the EU as long as we are on the sidelines, our position is unsustainable and the people are being sold this unsustainable status quo. Whoever is PM after Cameron is going to have to face up to this, a Leave PM might decide to take it to the people once again, "our deal has been declared void by the ECJ, they have not lived up to their side of the bargain, therefore I am putting the question back to the people, should we stay or leave, I'm going to recommend a leave vote", a Remain PM might say "well this is what we signed up to, it's not ideal but we'll make the best of a bad situation, remember, you lot all voted to stay". There is no in between. In the latter I could see the Tory party split irrevocably. In the former I could see the hardcore EUphiles decide that the issue is "settled for a generation" and split, form a new party and put a "grand coalition" into power who will deny the people a second vote which would almost certainly be won by the leave.
We will be faced with a choice, integrate fully into the EU or leave, at some point that is going to happen, the EU is a political union, and as much as our politicians wish to ignore it, it doesn't change the fact that the EU wants complete political integration of all nations within the EU.
Imagine a parallel universe where Farage had stayed resigned after the election, with Suzanne Evans or Douglas Carswell becoming leader. They would be potentially looking at a few dozen defections to them now, with the loss of the Conservative majority in the aftermath of the referendum.
I have a feeling that fish and chips in newspaper alone was banned all the way back in the 80's, concerns about ink contamination or some such bollocks. I think then what they did was white paper in the inside then wrapped around with newspaper. Now it is overwhelmingly those damn styrofoam containers, which have to be far worse for the environment than reused paper.
On topic I have to say that Stephan Shakespeare (if you read his whole piece in context) sounds a sensible fellow - I'd suggest that Kellner was put out to grass just in the nick of time.
I cannot believe these overpaid leftie 'luvvies' are rattling on about staying in. They have this counter effect on me whenever they show their faces lecturing us on charitable giving, refugees, or any topical subject. Just who do they think they are though I will concede that a few of them are very good at what they do. They make me want to vote 'leave' but before leavers get too excited I will vote remain but quite frankly I am not fazed either way.
The interview he did with Hannity, it is clear he is going to fight as dirty as the Clintons. He was throwing around all sorts of allegations in the form of well there are questions about this story and that story.
Interesting how little coverage the quickly debunked New York Times piece has got. Sounds like they are going to have to pay a big settlement to Trump. Now who it is in charge of that operation again?
What also worries me about the current Remain campaign is that if a Tory Leaver ever became PM, there may be enough, err, people in the Parliamentary party to cross the floor and lead a "unity government" or "grand coalition" that would ensure we stayed in the EU. Some MPs have shows that their loyalty doesn't lie with this country, but instead with Brussels. Obviously the PM doesn't fit that category, but there are some Tories who I'm beginning to wonder about.
Max it seems you are getting a teensy weensy bit hyperbolic, not to say tinfoil hat-ish?
I promise you it is perfectly possible to be loyal to the UK and believe that on balance it is best to remain in the EU. Look on it as a club where all your bessie mates go to drink but you have to wear a suit and tie, which you hate doing; or use FIFA as an analogy if you want: ideally we wouldn't have started from here, but here we are and it works in its way. Certainly better than any alternative.
Remain at what cost though? I already think the cost is too high, obviously your threshold is higher than mine (as is the PM's), there are some who I think would remain at any cost. For me the political downsides of the EU already outweigh the economic benefits, I think over the next few years the economic benefits are going to start falling dramatically as well and the political costs will get higher, I hope I'm wrong and there aren't more than just a handful of Conservative MPs who would stay in at any cost, but the last few months have been eye-opening.
What's this about the Guardian closing? I've had a huge migraine today and haven't been following the news so much?
It is far from confirmed. It is a tweet from Toby Young saying he heard a rumour. But then there was a rumour 4-5 years ago that was reported in the Telegraph and nothing came of that either.
Thanks for the update @Francis, pity it's only a rumor though.
Surely the main difference between Kippers and Eurosceptic or right-wing Tories is that the latter actually want to get into government so they can implement some of their policies?
Apparently not. The Eurosceptic or right-wing Tories are implacably opposed to Cameron. For winning. Twice.
But winning to what point or purpose, Mr. P? That is a question I hear from Conservatives who are not particularly right-wing or even Eurosceptic. What is the point of working to get a Conservative government elected when what you get is a continuation of what the last Labour government was doing?
The mirror image of Labour and Tony Blair. All parties should accept that PR using STV is the way forward. Stand for what you believe in rather than shoehorning yourself into one of the coalitions that are the Tory and Labour parties.
And shoehorn yourself - if you are lucky - into some kind of incoherent coalition after the election with a rag-bag of directly contradictory aims chosen more or less at random, and for which precisely no-one voted.
A lot of posters on here - I have the impression that most of them are Tories - are forever bemoaning that existence of party whips, and positively yearning for MPs who stand, as it were, on and by their own policies.
I thought you were one of them Mr Navabi. But perhaps I am wrong.
But if the House of Commons were ever to be elected by STV, you might find that the power and control of the party whips was lessened, if not broken completely. And every vote would be a free one.
That would make politics much more interesting, at the same time as it caused problems for the government control freaks. But I am not much bothered about them.
I cannot believe these overpaid leftie 'luvvies' are rattling on about staying in. They have this counter effect on me whenever they show their faces lecturing us on charitable giving, refugees, or any topical subject. Just who do they think they are though I will concede that a few of them are very good at what they do. They make me want to vote 'leave' but before leavers get too excited I will vote remain but quite frankly I am not fazed either way.
WIsh somebody would take a super injunction out on them, so we don't have to hear their opinions on anything.
Except it takes a stretch to come to the meaning ascribed by the self-appointed grammarians.
Other grammar mistakes aside, the 'shared by a majority of Texans' is part of a subordinate clause starting with 'that'. As such, it would clearly modify the statements in the subordinate clause, not the statements made before the 'that'. Thus it is pretty clear that it qualifies 'ordained by God' and 'recognized by our founders', not 'homosexuality'.
It would take a willful misunderstanding even to create an ambiguity, let alone come to the conclusion that that is either the only or the intended meaning.
I am against the crass nature of the policy described. But criticize it on substance, not on incorrect grammar analysis.
I cannot believe these overpaid leftie 'luvvies' are rattling on about staying in. They have this counter effect on me whenever they show their faces lecturing us on charitable giving, refugees, or any topical subject. Just who do they think they are though I will concede that a few of them are very good at what they do. They make me want to vote 'leave' but before leavers get too excited I will vote remain but quite frankly I am not fazed either way.
WIsh somebody would take a super injunction out on them, so we don't have to hear their opinions on anything.
What's this about the Guardian closing? I've had a huge migraine today and haven't been following the news so much?
It is far from confirmed. It is a tweet from Toby Young saying he heard a rumour. But then there was a rumour 4-5 years ago that was reported in the Telegraph and nothing came of that either.
Thanks for the update @Francis, pity it's only a rumor though.
I have to say I am quite skeptical. I am sure it has been raised in meeting etc as a possibility, but at the moment their web operation loses loads of money too, so it isn't like it is no brainer switch (plus they still have the old offshore reserves to dip into).
I wouldn't be surprised if "blue sky thought shower" style meetings have been held where they have role played option, but I think more likely it is that they will try to take the Guardian in the direction to monetarise the website properly and then we will have the option to close the lose making print operation.
On topic I have to say that Stephan Shakespeare (if you read his whole piece in context) sounds a sensible fellow - I'd suggest that Kellner was put out to grass just in the nick of time.
Pretty sure we can guess who Rod is talking about here..
"I think the chap had been invited to tell us all what would happen at the polls — and indeed he delivered a lengthy and earnest peroration on this subject, utilising all the expertise and political nous he had built up over the years.
The following week, then, we dinner-party guests would be able to muse how a pig, blinded at birth by inherited syphilis, deafened by having a knitting needle inserted into both of its eardrums, and rendered utterly insentient through having ingested vast quantities of heroin, ketamine and crack cocaine, would have made a much better stab at predicting the election outcome than this unctuous pharisiacal joker."
LOL! I look forward to a tsunami of condemnation from the usual suspects who pounce on any bonkers* claim, saying how they could never vote for a party led by someone who lies like that etc etc.
* well, any bonkers claim from the Remain side, at least.
One group who will be voting to leave are our indigenous beleaguered "sex workers". Apparently Romanian and Polish sex workers are flooding in and undercutting their rates substantially. Mind you punters have more choice as a result so maybe they'll be voting to remain. I probably should add I have no personal interest in this matter.
One group who will be voting to leave are our indigenous beleaguered "sex workers". Apparently Romanian and Polish sex workers are flooding in and undercutting their rates substantially. Mind you punters have more choice as a result so maybe they'll be voting to remain. I probably should add I have no personal interest in this matter.
You do though seem incredibly well briefed on this issue ;-)
I guessed it would be. Sorry, mate, you are becoming seriously unhinged and I didn't think I would ever say that to you.
And to assuage your doomladen scenario. Not a chance. If Remain win comfortably, then it's quite possible, perhaps probable, that a Leave supporter will become party leader (e.g. if Gove were a candidate, I'd seriously think of giving him my vote). But the condition would have to be that he accepted the result of the referendum - the people's expressed will - and not seek to overturn it for a generation (as they say these days).
Such a PM would have the inestimable advantage of being up to stand robustly for the UK's interests within the EU.
es PM Patel call another referendum, she is an avowed outer, how does the rest of the party react, those who have recently fought so hard for a Remain victory?
We will be faced with a choice, integrate fully into the EU or leave, at some point that is going to happen, the EU is a political union, and as much as our politicians wish to ignore it, it doesn't change the fact that the EU wants complete political integration of all nations within the EU.
Isn't it possible?
Also, I don't trust Osborne at all.
Max, I think we had a similar conversation a week or so ago, and were the EU to become terminally insane (UK forced to be part of an EU army or coerced into a common foreign policy etc), then the case for an early second referendum would be hard to resist (and I certainly wouldn't). So we are agreed on that.
But I would submit that the likelihood is remote and that, inadequate as many see them, the essentials of Cameron's re-negotiation will all remain in place and that should be a more reliable basis for deciding if and when a further in-out referendum is justified.
Distrusting Osborne is a far cry from effectively calling him a traitor.
What's this about the Guardian closing? I've had a huge migraine today and haven't been following the news so much?
It is far from confirmed. It is a tweet from Toby Young saying he heard a rumour. But then there was a rumour 4-5 years ago that was reported in the Telegraph and nothing came of that either.
Thanks for the update @Francis, pity it's only a rumor though.
I have to say I am quite skeptical. I am sure it has been raised in meeting etc as a possibility, but at the moment their web operation loses loads of money too, so it isn't like it is no brainer switch (plus they still have the old offshore reserves to dip into).
I wouldn't be surprised if "blue sky thought shower" style meetings have been held where they have role played option, but I think more likely it is that they will try to take the Guardian in the direction to monetarise the website properly and then we will have the option to close the lose making print operation.
As it happens their web site looks to be edited better than the actual paper itself. In fact even I can commend it sometimes.
Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
chortle
I seem to remember Blair had quite a broad coalition.
He interpreted it as meaning he could do what he damned well liked.
Misplaced optimism Mr N.
You know me, I'm Mr Optimistic!
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
Not to worry: Brookie's personal manservant, aka Cedric the Forklift Driver, is managing the industrial empire with flair and vim. No constant whinger is our Cedric.
JohnO I had you down as a street fighting man of the people, instead I discover you're an effete Oxonian. It's like finding out you french kiss camels.
I make sure I get there early and get a pretty one.
You do know that, in Arabic, the root for camel and beauty is the same (JML). Camel is jamal, beautiful is jameel.
What's this about the Guardian closing? I've had a huge migraine today and haven't been following the news so much?
It is far from confirmed. It is a tweet from Toby Young saying he heard a rumour. But then there was a rumour 4-5 years ago that was reported in the Telegraph and nothing came of that either.
Thanks for the update @Francis, pity it's only a rumor though.
I have to say I am quite skeptical. I am sure it has been raised in meeting etc as a possibility, but at the moment their web operation loses loads of money too, so it isn't like it is no brainer switch (plus they still have the old offshore reserves to dip into).
I wouldn't be surprised if "blue sky thought shower" style meetings have been held where they have role played option, but I think more likely it is that they will try to take the Guardian in the direction to monetarise the website properly and then we will have the option to close the lose making print operation.
As it happens their web site looks to be edited better than the actual paper itself. In fact even I can commend it sometimes.
I think worldwide "readership" the Guardian website gets a lot of traffic, but with adblocking , demographic that reads it etc etc etc they don't make any money at it, compared to for example the Daily Mail. They are like the twitter of news sites, compared to the Daily Mail being Facebook.
Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
chortle
I seem to remember Blair had quite a broad coalition.
He interpreted it as meaning he could do what he damned well liked.
Misplaced optimism Mr N.
You know me, I'm Mr Optimistic!
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
Not to worry: Brookie's personal manservant, aka Cedric the Forklift Driver, is managing the industrial empire with flair and vim. No constant whinger is our Cedric.
JohnO I had you down as a street fighting man of the people, instead I discover you're an effete Oxonian. It's like finding out you french kiss camels.
I make sure I get there early and get a pretty one.
You do know that, in Arabic, the root for camel and beauty is the same (JML). Camel is jamal, beautiful is jameel.
Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
chortle
I seem to remember Blair had quite a broad coalition.
He interpreted it as meaning he could do what he damned well liked.
Misplaced optimism Mr N.
You know me, I'm Mr Optimistic!
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
Not to worry: Brookie's personal manservant, aka Cedric the Forklift Driver, is managing the industrial empire with flair and vim. No constant whinger is our Cedric.
JohnO I had you down as a street fighting man of the people, instead I discover you're an effete Oxonian. It's like finding out you french kiss camels.
I make sure I get there early and get a pretty one.
You do know that, in Arabic, the root for camel and beauty is the same (JML). Camel is jamal, beautiful is jameel.
What's this about the Guardian closing? I've had a huge migraine today and haven't been following the news so much?
It is far from confirmed. It is a tweet from Toby Young saying he heard a rumour. But then there was a rumour 4-5 years ago that was reported in the Telegraph and nothing came of that either.
Thanks for the update @Francis, pity it's only a rumor though.
I have to say I am quite skeptical. I am sure it has been raised in meeting etc as a possibility, but at the moment their web operation loses loads of money too, so it isn't like it is no brainer switch (plus they still have the old offshore reserves to dip into).
I wouldn't be surprised if "blue sky thought shower" style meetings have been held where they have role played option, but I think more likely it is that they will try to take the Guardian in the direction to monetarise the website properly and then we will have the option to close the lose making print operation.
As it happens their web site looks to be edited better than the actual paper itself. In fact even I can commend it sometimes.
After they clearly had the intern lay out this morning's front page, that's not too difficult!
Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
chortle
I seem to remember Blair had quite a broad coalition.
He interpreted it as meaning he could do what he damned well liked.
Misplaced optimism Mr N.
You know me, I'm Mr Optimistic!
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
Not to worry: Brookie's personal manservant, aka Cedric the Forklift Driver, is managing the industrial empire with flair and vim. No constant whinger is our Cedric.
JohnO I had you down as a street fighting man of the people, instead I discover you're an effete Oxonian. It's like finding out you french kiss camels.
I make sure I get there early and get a pretty one.
You do know that, in Arabic, the root for camel and beauty is the same (JML). Camel is jamal, beautiful is jameel.
Careful. Brookie will be there before me whispering sweet nothings in her ear.
Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
chortle
I seem to remember Blair had quite a broad coalition.
He interpreted it as meaning he could do what he damned well liked.
Misplaced optimism Mr N.
You know me, I'm Mr Optimistic!
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
Not to worry: Brookie's personal manservant, aka Cedric the Forklift Driver, is managing the industrial empire with flair and vim. No constant whinger is our Cedric.
JohnO I had you down as a street fighting man of the people, instead I discover you're an effete Oxonian. It's like finding out you french kiss camels.
I make sure I get there early and get a pretty one.
You do know that, in Arabic, the root for camel and beauty is the same (JML). Camel is jamal, beautiful is jameel.
Imagine a parallel universe where Farage had stayed resigned after the election, with Suzanne Evans or Douglas Carswell becoming leader. They would be potentially looking at a few dozen defections to them now, with the loss of the Conservative majority in the aftermath of the referendum.
The government has effectively lost its majority already - in the past couple of months it has lost key parts of its budget, its schools policy, most of the TU bill. It seems unlikely it will be able to restore discipline amongst its MPs anytime soon.
What's this about the Guardian closing? I've had a huge migraine today and haven't been following the news so much?
It is far from confirmed. It is a tweet from Toby Young saying he heard a rumour. But then there was a rumour 4-5 years ago that was reported in the Telegraph and nothing came of that either.
Thanks for the update @Francis, pity it's only a rumor though.
I have to say I am quite skeptical. I am sure it has been raised in meeting etc as a possibility, but at the moment their web operation loses loads of money too, so it isn't like it is no brainer switch (plus they still have the old offshore reserves to dip into).
I wouldn't be surprised if "blue sky thought shower" style meetings have been held where they have role played option, but I think more likely it is that they will try to take the Guardian in the direction to monetarise the website properly and then we will have the option to close the lose making print operation.
As it happens their web site looks to be edited better than the actual paper itself. In fact even I can commend it sometimes.
After they clearly had the intern lay out this morning's front page, that's not too difficult!
I presume they changed that for the later edition...I can imagine they got some lovely calls this morning from their luuvie readership...
Surely the main difference between Kippers and Eurosceptic or right-wing Tories is that the latter actually want to get into government so they can implement some of their policies?
Apparently not. The Eurosceptic or right-wing Tories are implacably opposed to Cameron. For winning. Twice.
But winning to what point or purpose, Mr. P? That is a question I hear from Conservatives who are not particularly right-wing or even Eurosceptic. What is the point of working to get a Conservative government elected when what you get is a continuation of what the last Labour government was doing?
The mirror image of Labour and Tony Blair. All parties should accept that PR using STV is the way forward. Stand for what you believe in rather than shoehorning yourself into one of the coalitions that are the Tory and Labour parties.
And shoehorn yourself - if you are lucky - into some kind of incoherent coalition after the election with a rag-bag of directly contradictory aims chosen more or less at random, and for which precisely no-one voted.
A lot of posters on here - I have the impression that most of them are Tories - are forever bemoaning that existence of party whips, and positively yearning for MPs who stand, as it were, on and by their own policies.
I thought you were one of them Mr Navabi. But perhaps I am wrong.
But if the House of Commons were ever to be elected by STV, you might find that the power and control of the party whips was lessened, if not broken completely. And every vote would be a free one.
That would make politics much more interesting, at the same time as it caused problems for the government control freaks. But I am not much bothered about them.
I am not a Tory but have long argued that all votes should be free votes and the whips should be abolished in their current incarnation.
But I don't see how electing by STV would reduced the power of the parties or the whips?
So within the EU the UK population will rise between now and 2030 at a slower rate than it has under the current and previous governments of which Gove is and has been a member?
What's this about the Guardian closing? I've had a huge migraine today and haven't been following the news so much?
It is far from confirmed. It is a tweet from Toby Young saying he heard a rumour. But then there was a rumour 4-5 years ago that was reported in the Telegraph and nothing came of that either.
Thanks for the update @Francis, pity it's only a rumor though.
I have to say I am quite skeptical. I am sure it has been raised in meeting etc as a possibility, but at the moment their web operation loses loads of money too, so it isn't like it is no brainer switch (plus they still have the old offshore reserves to dip into).
I wouldn't be surprised if "blue sky thought shower" style meetings have been held where they have role played option, but I think more likely it is that they will try to take the Guardian in the direction to monetarise the website properly and then we will have the option to close the lose making print operation.
As it happens their web site looks to be edited better than the actual paper itself. In fact even I can commend it sometimes.
After they clearly had the intern lay out this morning's front page, that's not too difficult!
What's this about the Guardian closing? I've had a huge migraine today and haven't been following the news so much?
It is far from confirmed. It is a tweet from Toby Young saying he heard a rumour. But then there was a rumour 4-5 years ago that was reported in the Telegraph and nothing came of that either.
Thanks for the update @Francis, pity it's only a rumor though.
I have to say I am quite skeptical. I am sure it has been raised in meeting etc as a possibility, but at the moment their web operation loses loads of money too, so it isn't like it is no brainer switch (plus they still have the old offshore reserves to dip into).
I wouldn't be surprised if "blue sky thought shower" style meetings have been held where they have role played option, but I think more likely it is that they will try to take the Guardian in the direction to monetarise the website properly and then we will have the option to close the lose making print operation.
As it happens their web site looks to be edited better than the actual paper itself. In fact even I can commend it sometimes.
After they clearly had the intern lay out this morning's front page, that's not too difficult!
I presume they changed that for the later edition...I can imagine they got some lovely calls this morning from their luuvie readership...
Miss @Plato_says watched the morning paper reviews and they hadn't changed it by then. Can't imagine the luvvies were happy at all!
Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
chortle
I seem to remember Blair had quite a broad coalition.
He interpreted it as meaning he could do what he damned well liked.
Misplaced optimism Mr N.
You know me, I'm Mr Optimistic!
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
Not to worry: Brookie's personal manservant, aka Cedric the Forklift Driver, is managing the industrial empire with flair and vim. No constant whinger is our Cedric.
JohnO I had you down as a street fighting man of the people, instead I discover you're an effete Oxonian. It's like finding out you french kiss camels.
I make sure I get there early and get a pretty one.
You do know that, in Arabic, the root for camel and beauty is the same (JML). Camel is jamal, beautiful is jameel.
Careful. Brookie will be there before me.
I'll toss you for ends
and that's not an offer I make every day :-)
You'll do WHAT with me?!! I may be an effete Oxonian, but not THAT effete!
Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
chortle
I seem to remember Blair had quite a broad coalition.
He interpreted it as meaning he could do what he damned well liked.
Misplaced optimism Mr N.
You know me, I'm Mr Optimistic!
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
Not to worry: Brookie's personal manservant, aka Cedric the Forklift Driver, is managing the industrial empire with flair and vim. No constant whinger is our Cedric.
JohnO I had you down as a street fighting man of the people, instead I discover you're an effete Oxonian. It's like finding out you french kiss camels.
I make sure I get there early and get a pretty one.
You do know that, in Arabic, the root for camel and beauty is the same (JML). Camel is jamal, beautiful is jameel.
Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
chortle
I seem to remember Blair had quite a broad coalition.
He interpreted it as meaning he could do what he damned well liked.
Misplaced optimism Mr N.
You know me, I'm Mr Optimistic!
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
Not to worry: Brookie's personal manservant, aka Cedric the Forklift Driver, is managing the industrial empire with flair and vim. No constant whinger is our Cedric.
JohnO I had you down as a street fighting man of the people, instead I discover you're an effete Oxonian. It's like finding out you french kiss camels.
I make sure I get there early and get a pretty one.
You do know that, in Arabic, the root for camel and beauty is the same (JML). Camel is jamal, beautiful is jameel.
Careful. Brookie will be there before me.
I'll toss you for ends
and that's not an offer I make every day :-)
You'll do WHAT with me?!! I may be an effete Oxonian, but not THAT effete!
You English are so sexually repressed. You need a holiday in Ulster to loosen you up.
Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
chortle
I seem to remember Blair had quite a broad coalition.
He interpreted it as meaning he could do what he damned well liked.
Misplaced optimism Mr N.
You know me, I'm Mr Optimistic!
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
Not to worry: Brookie's personal manservant, aka Cedric the Forklift Driver, is managing the industrial empire with flair and vim. No constant whinger is our Cedric.
JohnO I had you down as a street fighting man of the people, instead I discover you're an effete Oxonian. It's like finding out you french kiss camels.
I make sure I get there early and get a pretty one.
You do know that, in Arabic, the root for camel and beauty is the same (JML). Camel is jamal, beautiful is jameel.
Careful. Brookie will be there before me.
I'll toss you for ends
and that's not an offer I make every day :-)
You'll do WHAT with me?!! I may be an effete Oxonian, but not THAT effete!
You English are so sexually repressed. You need a holiday in Ulster to loosen you up.
The passenger manifest for MS804 contained no known names on current terror watch lists, three European security officials have said, according to the Associated Press news agency.
Well I can see how you wouldn't like the FPTP stranglehold broken, but at some point there will be another Labour Govt and then you'll do a volte face.
No I won't. If and when (Allah forbid) we get another Labour government, under FPTP it can only be one which has built an internal coalition broad enough to include a wide range of voters in a wide range of constituencies. That will limit the damage.
chortle
I seem to remember Blair had quite a broad coalition.
He interpreted it as meaning he could do what he damned well liked.
Misplaced optimism Mr N.
You know me, I'm Mr Optimistic!
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
Not to worry: Brookie's personal manservant, aka Cedric the Forklift Driver, is managing the industrial empire with flair and vim. No constant whinger is our Cedric.
JohnO I had you down as a street fighting man of the people, instead I discover you're an effete Oxonian. It's like finding out you french kiss camels.
I make sure I get there early and get a pretty one.
You do know that, in Arabic, the root for camel and beauty is the same (JML). Camel is jamal, beautiful is jameel.
Careful. Brookie will be there before me.
I'll toss you for ends
and that's not an offer I make every day :-)
You'll do WHAT with me?!! I may be an effete Oxonian, but not THAT effete!
You English are so sexually repressed. You need a holiday in Ulster to loosen you up.
One group who will be voting to leave are our indigenous beleaguered "sex workers". Apparently Romanian and Polish sex workers are flooding in and undercutting their rates substantially. Mind you punters have more choice as a result so maybe they'll be voting to remain. I probably should add I have no personal interest in this matter.
Just as well the Electoral Commission decided against an IN OUT referendum
Just had our pink notices for the referendum confirming the postal votes will be with us around 3rd June. So just over two weeks to postal votes going in.
Comments
Anyway, what are you doing skiving off? Doesn't the future of British industry depend on you working your socks off to counter the baleful effect of Osbornomics?
But the first thing he will be hit with is the next EU crisis and then what ? You've voted in so your bluff has been called, the UKs interest won't count. It's all communautaire by then mon vieux.
I promise you it is perfectly possible to be loyal to the UK and believe that on balance it is best to remain in the EU. Look on it as a club where all your bessie mates go to drink but you have to wear a suit and tie, which you hate doing; or use FIFA as an analogy if you want: ideally we wouldn't have started from here, but here we are and it works in its way. Certainly better than any alternative.
A..As much as it can spend.
Well done Jonny Bairstow on a superb 140, let's hope the bowlers can match the achievement.
I need to recharge the batteries as it will be tough going for the next year or so.
I presume it is in breach of some EU Health & Safety edict or other.
Grammar fail, or do Texas Republicans believe most Texans are gay?
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-texas-lgbt-idUSKCN0YA2RQ
No more needs to be said.
I've had a huge migraine today and haven't been following the news so much?
JohnO I had you down as a street fighting man of the people, instead I discover you're an effete Oxonian. It's like finding out you french kiss camels.
I can see where you are coming from, but if, say, PM Patel in 2019 after our deal has been given some kind of legal status goes to an EU summit for a new EU Army. Naturally she stands up for our interests and vetoes it. The EU takes our veto to the ECJ and overturns our veto under the remit of "ever closer union of the European people" and our opt-out is found to be in basic violation of the Treaty of Rome. Does PM Patel call another referendum, she is an avowed outer, how does the rest of the party react, those who have recently fought so hard for a Remain victory?
I can't see any future for this country in the EU as long as we are on the sidelines, our position is unsustainable and the people are being sold this unsustainable status quo. Whoever is PM after Cameron is going to have to face up to this, a Leave PM might decide to take it to the people once again, "our deal has been declared void by the ECJ, they have not lived up to their side of the bargain, therefore I am putting the question back to the people, should we stay or leave, I'm going to recommend a leave vote", a Remain PM might say "well this is what we signed up to, it's not ideal but we'll make the best of a bad situation, remember, you lot all voted to stay". There is no in between. In the latter I could see the Tory party split irrevocably. In the former I could see the hardcore EUphiles decide that the issue is "settled for a generation" and split, form a new party and put a "grand coalition" into power who will deny the people a second vote which would almost certainly be won by the leave.
We will be faced with a choice, integrate fully into the EU or leave, at some point that is going to happen, the EU is a political union, and as much as our politicians wish to ignore it, it doesn't change the fact that the EU wants complete political integration of all nations within the EU.
Isn't it possible?
Also, I don't trust Osborne at all.
Interesting how little coverage the quickly debunked New York Times piece has got. Sounds like they are going to have to pay a big settlement to Trump. Now who it is in charge of that operation again?
I thought you were one of them Mr Navabi. But perhaps I am wrong.
But if the House of Commons were ever to be elected by STV, you might find that the power and control of the party whips was lessened, if not broken completely. And every vote would be a free one.
That would make politics much more interesting, at the same time as it caused problems for the government control freaks. But I am not much bothered about them.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36341206
Other grammar mistakes aside, the 'shared by a majority of Texans' is part of a subordinate clause starting with 'that'. As such, it would clearly modify the statements in the subordinate clause, not the statements made before the 'that'. Thus it is pretty clear that it qualifies 'ordained by God' and 'recognized by our founders', not 'homosexuality'.
It would take a willful misunderstanding even to create an ambiguity, let alone come to the conclusion that that is either the only or the intended meaning.
I am against the crass nature of the policy described. But criticize it on substance, not on incorrect grammar analysis.
I wouldn't be surprised if "blue sky thought shower" style meetings have been held where they have role played option, but I think more likely it is that they will try to take the Guardian in the direction to monetarise the website properly and then we will have the option to close the lose making print operation.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/the-politically-correct-way-to-do-racism/
"I think the chap had been invited to tell us all what would happen at the polls — and indeed he delivered a lengthy and earnest peroration on this subject, utilising all the expertise and political nous he had built up over the years.
The following week, then, we dinner-party guests would be able to muse how a pig, blinded at birth by inherited syphilis, deafened by having a knitting needle inserted into both of its eardrums, and rendered utterly insentient through having ingested vast quantities of heroin, ketamine and crack cocaine, would have made a much better stab at predicting the election outcome than this unctuous pharisiacal joker."
* well, any bonkers claim from the Remain side, at least.
But I would submit that the likelihood is remote and that, inadequate as many see them, the essentials of Cameron's re-negotiation will all remain in place and that should be a more reliable basis for deciding if and when a further in-out referendum is justified.
Distrusting Osborne is a far cry from effectively calling him a traitor.
and that's not an offer I make every day :-)
But I don't see how electing by STV would reduced the power of the parties or the whips?
Local tv feed in the sandpit is clearly about two minutes behind the play, grr...
https://twitter.com/CallingEngland/status/733657108516900865
Vapid Bilge?
Start the tuk tuk.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/05/20/arsenal-to-sign-granit-xhaka-as-midfielder-heads-to-london-to-co/
Cos you know Arsenal don't have enough midfielders...where as they just have way too many world class defenders and strikers....
Arsenal going for a 2-8-1 formation next season?
https://twitter.com/reFurness/status/733661401399595008
Just don't ask about the £35k sofas hidden in the store cupboard...
https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/733602588898275328
Nevertheless, the Guardian is having to make cuts to reduce the losses and hope that the growth of its online paper will eventually come good.