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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After nearly a week without polls the sentiment on Betfair

SystemSystem Posts: 11,725
edited May 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After nearly a week without polls the sentiment on Betfair is moving back to REMAIN

From a straightforward trading perspective there is a good reason to back IN at the moment. The third week of the month is when we get the phone polls which have been showing very solid IN leads. For whatever reason they all seem to come together and I’m expecting three or perhaps four this coming week.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048
    The problem is that the betfair percentages haven't changed in response to any polling really. Even if you accept Mike's claims about phone polls being more accurate (which I don't think has any validity) then the phone polls have shown the Remain lead almost halving over the last few months with no apparent response from the betting fraternity.

    I have always kind of believed that you should follow the money to get a good idea of what is happening but in this case the money seems to be ignoring any kind of movement in the polling at all.
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Ya Boo!
    Second like remain
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'I think ultimately there will have to be a clear division between the Eurozone and non Eurozone, even Juncker has accepted there may be an EU 'outer core' which is not in the Euro and the Federalist core'


    -------------------------------------


    Yes, the EU already has clear plans for dividing itself into fast and slow lanes. The latter will be called 'Associate members'.



    But -

    1) these Associate members will not have a looser relationship with the EU than they do now.

    2) they will be expected to move towards joining the federal core, just at a slower pace.

    3) they will also include the EEA countries - yes that's right, the EU wants to fold them in also.

    The Prime Minister went to Iceland recently and, remarkably, was arguing to the Icelanders to join as Associate members.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,987
    Very puzzling. This referendum feels to me like it is Leave's to lose. In reducing immigration they have by far the most accessible argument and one that Remain just cannot counter.
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Daniel Hannan ‏@DanHannanMEP
    Some of you think my #ProjectFear tweets about bears, orcs etc are over-the-top. But listen to these idiots.


    Christopher Hope
    @christopherhope
    NEW Three million EU citizens in the UK could be deported if Britons vote for a 'Brexit', Home Office suggests http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/three-million-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-could-be-deported-if-britons/
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,714
    I think punters are in danger of seeing this referendum as being a re-run of the Indyref.

    That might how it pans out, status quo wins, but I can't see turnout approaching Indyref levels, and the lower the turnout, the better it is for Leave.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    The problem is that the betfair percentages haven't changed in response to any polling really. Even if you accept Mike's claims about phone polls being more accurate (which I don't think has any validity) then the phone polls have shown the Remain lead almost halving over the last few months with no apparent response from the betting fraternity.

    I have always kind of believed that you should follow the money to get a good idea of what is happening but in this case the money seems to be ignoring any kind of movement in the polling at all.

    Most people bet on the basis of what they want to see happen, rather than what they think will happen. That's how bookies make their money.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960
    Are Labour going to repeat the Scottish Indy Ref mistake all over again - being on the wrong side of the argument, painted as stooges of a disliked establishment, and unable to recover afterwards?


    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/15/labour-pro-eu-stance-brexit-is-recruitment-agent-for-ukip
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048
    edited May 2016
    FPT
    HYUFD said:


    Yes I know you did not include Denmark in your list but that does not mean their opt-out can be ignored. In reality the others will effectively reject their Treaty commitments, none of their governments have shown the slightest inclination to join the Euro and given its recent history I doubt they ever will!

    You do understand what happens legally if you reject treaty commitments don't you? It means that the treaty falls. So you are suggesting that the treaty that forms the basis for the whole of the EU should now be ignored or rejected by several of its signatories?
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    ViceroyViceroy Posts: 128

    Very puzzling. This referendum feels to me like it is Leave's to lose. In reducing immigration they have by far the most accessible argument and one that Remain just cannot counter.

    Isn't there talk that Leave are keeping their powder dry and that will be near the end of the campaign? I certainly would use such a tactic: at the moment simply keep rebutting and laughing at Remain's terribly over the top scare stories which are going through one ear and out of the other (as shown by the polling).

    It reminds me of the Indyref in Scotland how the polls starting moving towards Independence in the final weeks in the face of endless Unionist bs stories. In the end, the Unionists fell back on the emotional arguments which saved the day... a problem for Remain is that there is no emotional argument for Remain.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,170
    Sean_F said:

    Most people bet on the basis of what they want to see happen, rather than what they think will happen. That's how bookies make their money.

    For the second time this weekend (tho' to a different person): if you genuinely think that...why are you on a betting site?

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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Daniel Hannan ‏@DanHannanMEP
    Some of you think my #ProjectFear tweets about bears, orcs etc are over-the-top. But listen to these idiots.


    Christopher Hope
    @christopherhope
    NEW Three million EU citizens in the UK could be deported if Britons vote for a 'Brexit', Home Office suggests http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/three-million-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-could-be-deported-if-britons/

    That's utter bullshit, I mean come on deportation???

    When WW3 starts won't we just intern them in camps rather than deport?
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    Very puzzling. This referendum feels to me like it is Leave's to lose. In reducing immigration they have by far the most accessible argument and one that Remain just cannot counter.

    and there has been so little focus on it so far....
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Say goodbye to Batty Bennett
    https://twitter.com/CityAM/status/731963145044922370
    ...and with that I'll say goodnight.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Moses_ said:

    Daniel Hannan ‏@DanHannanMEP
    Some of you think my #ProjectFear tweets about bears, orcs etc are over-the-top. But listen to these idiots.


    Christopher Hope
    @christopherhope
    NEW Three million EU citizens in the UK could be deported if Britons vote for a 'Brexit', Home Office suggests http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/three-million-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-could-be-deported-if-britons/

    That's utter bullshit, I mean come on deportation???

    When WW3 starts won't we just intern them in camps rather than deport?
    ...in battery farms. We'll need to eat them when the food shortages start.
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    Mortimer said:

    Are Labour going to repeat the Scottish Indy Ref mistake all over again - being on the wrong side of the argument, painted as stooges of a disliked establishment, and unable to recover afterwards?
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/15/labour-pro-eu-stance-brexit-is-recruitment-agent-for-ukip

    "Vote Leave chair says by taking position against Brexit the party shows voters worried about immigration that it does not care"

    Corbyn is quite open about the fact that he does not care about how many more migrants there are. When the debate fully focuses on immigration it could be electoral suicide for Labour.
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    viewcode said:

    Sean_F said:

    Most people bet on the basis of what they want to see happen, rather than what they think will happen. That's how bookies make their money.

    For the second time this weekend (tho' to a different person): if you genuinely think that...why are you on a betting site?

    Well if what Sean says is true, it would mean markets are often badly mispriced so lots of opportunities to make money.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,228
    Viceroy said:

    Very puzzling. This referendum feels to me like it is Leave's to lose. In reducing immigration they have by far the most accessible argument and one that Remain just cannot counter.

    Isn't there talk that Leave are keeping their powder dry and that will be near the end of the campaign? I certainly would use such a tactic: at the moment simply keep rebutting and laughing at Remain's terribly over the top scare stories which are going through one ear and out of the other (as shown by the polling).

    It reminds me of the Indyref in Scotland how the polls starting moving towards Independence in the final weeks in the face of endless Unionist bs stories. In the end, the Unionists fell back on the emotional arguments which saved the day... a problem for Remain is that there is no emotional argument for Remain.
    It was not emotional arguments which won it for Remain, it was fears over the economy and 'the Vow'
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,228
    Mortimer said:

    Are Labour going to repeat the Scottish Indy Ref mistake all over again - being on the wrong side of the argument, painted as stooges of a disliked establishment, and unable to recover afterwards?


    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/15/labour-pro-eu-stance-brexit-is-recruitment-agent-for-ukip

    Except on EU ref Labour is on the side of most of its voters, it is the Tory leadership which is not
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Moses_ said:

    Daniel Hannan ‏@DanHannanMEP
    Some of you think my #ProjectFear tweets about bears, orcs etc are over-the-top. But listen to these idiots.


    Christopher Hope
    @christopherhope
    NEW Three million EU citizens in the UK could be deported if Britons vote for a 'Brexit', Home Office suggests http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/three-million-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-could-be-deported-if-britons/

    That's utter bullshit, I mean come on deportation???

    When WW3 starts won't we just intern them in camps rather than deport?
    Its obviously nonsense, as we do not deport the illegals that we already know about. Barring them from re-entry will be as far as it goes.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,228
    edited May 2016

    FPT

    HYUFD said:


    Yes I know you did not include Denmark in your list but that does not mean their opt-out can be ignored. In reality the others will effectively reject their Treaty commitments, none of their governments have shown the slightest inclination to join the Euro and given its recent history I doubt they ever will!

    You do understand what happens legally if you reject treaty commitments don't you? It means that the treaty falls. So you are suggesting that the treaty that forms the basis for the whole of the EU should now be ignored or rejected by several of its signatories?
    They will not explicitly reject it, just never bring it into force, they cannot, the Swedish voters for example are overwhelmingly opposed to the Euro
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    MikeK said:

    Say goodbye to Batty Bennett
    https://twitter.com/CityAM/status/731963145044922370
    ...and with that I'll say goodnight.

    If we Brexit she's threatened to come back. :wink:
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,622
    GeoffM said:

    Moses_ said:

    Daniel Hannan ‏@DanHannanMEP
    Some of you think my #ProjectFear tweets about bears, orcs etc are over-the-top. But listen to these idiots.


    Christopher Hope
    @christopherhope
    NEW Three million EU citizens in the UK could be deported if Britons vote for a 'Brexit', Home Office suggests http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/three-million-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-could-be-deported-if-britons/

    That's utter bullshit, I mean come on deportation???

    When WW3 starts won't we just intern them in camps rather than deport?
    ...in battery farms. We'll need to eat them when the food shortages start.
    Arbeit macht Fry-ups?
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    edited May 2016
    MikeK said:

    Say goodbye to Batty Bennett
    [snip pic of woman with a face like a stamped on lasagna]
    ...and with that I'll say goodnight.

    And that moment ends her one single contribution to public life...

    ...as the answer to a question in your pub quiz Politics round.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited May 2016
    More hilarity, I see!

    The Telegraph headline: "Three million EU citizens in the UK could be deported if Britons vote for a 'Brexit', Home Office suggests "

    The Telegraph article:

    Lord Keen of Elie, a Government minister, said: “As set out in the Government’s White Paper: ‘The process for withdrawing from the European Union’, published on 29 February, the withdrawal process is unprecedented.

    “No country has ever used Article 50 – it is untested. There is a great deal of uncertainty about how it would work.

    “UK citizens get the right to live and work in the other 27 member states from our membership of the EU.

    “If the UK voted to leave the EU, the Government would do all it could to secure a positive outcome for the country, but there would be no requirement under EU law for these rights to be maintained.”


    i.e. the Home Office suggested nothing of the sort (and was actually talking about UK citizens in other EU countries, but that's by the by). What the minister actually said is exactly what the Leavers tout as an advantage of Brexit - namely that it would be up to the government of the day (and for other EU governments, in respect of UK citizens) to decide, since EU law would no longer apply. That's kinda the idea of Brexit, isn't it?
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    Moses_ said:

    Daniel Hannan ‏@DanHannanMEP
    Some of you think my #ProjectFear tweets about bears, orcs etc are over-the-top. But listen to these idiots.


    Christopher Hope
    @christopherhope
    NEW Three million EU citizens in the UK could be deported if Britons vote for a 'Brexit', Home Office suggests http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/three-million-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-could-be-deported-if-britons/

    That's utter bullshit, I mean come on deportation???

    When WW3 starts won't we just intern them in camps rather than deport?
    ...in battery farms. We'll need to eat them when the food shortages start.
    Arbeit macht Fry-ups?
    v good!
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,228

    Mortimer said:

    Are Labour going to repeat the Scottish Indy Ref mistake all over again - being on the wrong side of the argument, painted as stooges of a disliked establishment, and unable to recover afterwards?
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/15/labour-pro-eu-stance-brexit-is-recruitment-agent-for-ukip

    "Vote Leave chair says by taking position against Brexit the party shows voters worried about immigration that it does not care"

    Corbyn is quite open about the fact that he does not care about how many more migrants there are. When the debate fully focuses on immigration it could be electoral suicide for Labour.
    Most of the Labour voters who were most concerned about immigration are already in UKIP, Labour voters are now more middle class and ethnic minority than before
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,333
    edited May 2016
    Somebody is for the high jump after leaving a training device at man utd!

    Bob did you make sure you picked up all those fake bombs after the training exercise as we wouldn't want a security alert...Yes boss...sits down to watch the man utd game on sky...did I pick that one up out the bogs...Can't remember....yeah sure I did...oh look security alert at old Trafford wonder what has gone on there then....ooohhhhhhh
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    More hilarity, I see!

    The Telegraph headline: "Three million EU citizens in the UK could be deported if Britons vote for a 'Brexit', Home Office suggests "

    The Telegraph article:

    Lord Keen of Elie, a Government minister, said: “As set out in the Government’s White Paper: ‘The process for withdrawing from the European Union’, published on 29 February, the withdrawal process is unprecedented.

    “No country has ever used Article 50 – it is untested. There is a great deal of uncertainty about how it would work.

    “UK citizens get the right to live and work in the other 27 member states from our membership of the EU.

    “If the UK voted to leave the EU, the Government would do all it could to secure a positive outcome for the country, but there would be no requirement under EU law for these rights to be maintained.”


    i.e. the Home Office suggested nothing of the sort (and was actually talking about UK citizens in other EU countries, but that's by the by). What the minister actually said is exactly what the Leavers tout as an advantage of Brexit - namely that it would be up to the government of the day (and for other EU governments, in respect of UK citizens) to decide, since EU law would no longer apply. That's kinda the idea of Brexit, isn't it?

    Yes,yes all very good but please can you tell us when WW3 is to start. As I've previously mentioned I'm a bit busy in early July and have a dental appointment on the 12th so anytime after mid July would be ideal.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048
    HYUFD said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:


    Yes I know you did not include Denmark in your list but that does not mean their opt-out can be ignored. In reality the others will effectively reject their Treaty commitments, none of their governments have shown the slightest inclination to join the Euro and given its recent history I doubt they ever will!

    You do understand what happens legally if you reject treaty commitments don't you? It means that the treaty falls. So you are suggesting that the treaty that forms the basis for the whole of the EU should now be ignored or rejected by several of its signatories?
    They will not explicitly reject it, just never bring it into force, they cannot, the Swedish voters for example are overwhelmingly opposed to the Euro
    The two problems with that scenario being that the EU cannot afford to go on ignoring it forever and that, more importantly, it only takes a case at the ECJ to bring it to a head. The Euro committed countries don't have a legal leg to stand on.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited May 2016
    Moses_ said:

    Yes,yes all very good but please can you tell us when WW3 is to start. As I've previously mentioned I'm a bit busy in early July and have a dental appointment on the 12th so anytime after mid July would be ideal.

    You need to ask the newspapers. They made up the story. Presumably they are pencilling in the mass deportation they invented first
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048

    Moses_ said:

    More hilarity, I see!

    The Telegraph headline: "Three million EU citizens in the UK could be deported if Britons vote for a 'Brexit', Home Office suggests "

    The Telegraph article:

    Lord Keen of Elie, a Government minister, said: “As set out in the Government’s White Paper: ‘The process for withdrawing from the European Union’, published on 29 February, the withdrawal process is unprecedented.

    “No country has ever used Article 50 – it is untested. There is a great deal of uncertainty about how it would work.

    “UK citizens get the right to live and work in the other 27 member states from our membership of the EU.

    “If the UK voted to leave the EU, the Government would do all it could to secure a positive outcome for the country, but there would be no requirement under EU law for these rights to be maintained.”


    i.e. the Home Office suggested nothing of the sort (and was actually talking about UK citizens in other EU countries, but that's by the by). What the minister actually said is exactly what the Leavers tout as an advantage of Brexit - namely that it would be up to the government of the day (and for other EU governments, in respect of UK citizens) to decide, since EU law would no longer apply. That's kinda the idea of Brexit, isn't it?

    Yes,yes all very good but please can you tell us when WW3 is to start. As I've previously mentioned I'm a bit busy in early July and have a dental appointment on the 12th so anytime after mid July would be ideal.
    You need to ask the newspapers. They made up the story.
    No they didn't. Cameron did then dumped it when he saw the adverse reaction. Unless of course you believe that the Guardian and the Times are in secret cahoots with the Leave campaign.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,622

    Somebody is for the high jump after leaving a training device at man utd!

    Must be a REMAIN supporter! :lol:
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048
    Moses_ said:

    More hilarity, I see!

    The Telegraph headline: "Three million EU citizens in the UK could be deported if Britons vote for a 'Brexit', Home Office suggests "

    The Telegraph article:

    Lord Keen of Elie, a Government minister, said: “As set out in the Government’s White Paper: ‘The process for withdrawing from the European Union’, published on 29 February, the withdrawal process is unprecedented.

    “No country has ever used Article 50 – it is untested. There is a great deal of uncertainty about how it would work.

    “UK citizens get the right to live and work in the other 27 member states from our membership of the EU.

    “If the UK voted to leave the EU, the Government would do all it could to secure a positive outcome for the country, but there would be no requirement under EU law for these rights to be maintained.”


    i.e. the Home Office suggested nothing of the sort (and was actually talking about UK citizens in other EU countries, but that's by the by). What the minister actually said is exactly what the Leavers tout as an advantage of Brexit - namely that it would be up to the government of the day (and for other EU governments, in respect of UK citizens) to decide, since EU law would no longer apply. That's kinda the idea of Brexit, isn't it?

    Yes,yes all very good but please can you tell us when WW3 is to start. As I've previously mentioned I'm a bit busy in early July and have a dental appointment on the 12th so anytime after mid July would be ideal.
    Ooo I don't want WW3 starting on the 12th. It's my birthday.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Did another 2 hours' leafleting for Vote Leave this morning, as I have every Saturday and Sunday for the last two months. Have most people received literature from both sides (excluding the Government pamphlet)?
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    RoyalBlue said:

    Did another 2 hours' leafleting for Vote Leave this morning, as I have every Saturday and Sunday for the last two months. Have most people received literature from both sides (excluding the Government pamphlet)?

    No
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    No they didn't. Cameron did then dumped it when he saw the adverse reaction. Unless of course you believe that the Guardian and the Times are in secret cahoots with the Leave campaign.

    So you keep saying, with zero evidence. As I said before, I go by what politicians say, not by what newspapers looking to sell copies wrongly claim they are about to say, or indeed claim they have said, such as 'Three million EU citizens in the UK could be deported if Britons vote for a 'Brexit'' which the very same article shows is garbage.
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    HYUFD said:

    Mortimer said:

    Are Labour going to repeat the Scottish Indy Ref mistake all over again - being on the wrong side of the argument, painted as stooges of a disliked establishment, and unable to recover afterwards?
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/15/labour-pro-eu-stance-brexit-is-recruitment-agent-for-ukip

    "Vote Leave chair says by taking position against Brexit the party shows voters worried about immigration that it does not care"

    Corbyn is quite open about the fact that he does not care about how many more migrants there are. When the debate fully focuses on immigration it could be electoral suicide for Labour.
    Most of the Labour voters who were most concerned about immigration are already in UKIP, Labour voters are now more middle class and ethnic minority than before
    Not what the Yougov data from June 2015 shows. Class DE was 2 Labour for every 1 UKIP.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2015#Voter_demographics
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,228

    HYUFD said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:


    Yes I know you did not include Denmark in your list but that does not mean their opt-out can be ignored. In reality the others will effectively reject their Treaty commitments, none of their governments have shown the slightest inclination to join the Euro and given its recent history I doubt they ever will!

    You do understand what happens legally if you reject treaty commitments don't you? It means that the treaty falls. So you are suggesting that the treaty that forms the basis for the whole of the EU should now be ignored or rejected by several of its signatories?
    They will not explicitly reject it, just never bring it into force, they cannot, the Swedish voters for example are overwhelmingly opposed to the Euro
    The two problems with that scenario being that the EU cannot afford to go on ignoring it forever and that, more importantly, it only takes a case at the ECJ to bring it to a head. The Euro committed countries don't have a legal leg to stand on.
    The EU is not going to bring a case to the ECJ demanding these countries join the Euro, it is not realistic, would be ignored and if anything would push them toward the exit door themselves!
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    More than £11m has been traded on betfair on the referendum, at the moment £35k is waiting to lay IN at 2/5. The people involved here aren't INNERS or OUTERS they're traders and arbers, probably not interested in politics.Ordinary remainers aren't walking into a High St bookie and having a fiver at 4/11.
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Wanderer said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Did another 2 hours' leafleting for Vote Leave this morning, as I have every Saturday and Sunday for the last two months. Have most people received literature from both sides (excluding the Government pamphlet)?

    No
    Very coy! Which side have you received leaflets from if any?
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Moses_ said:

    More hilarity, I see!

    The Telegraph headline: "Three million EU citizens in the UK could be deported if Britons vote for a 'Brexit', Home Office suggests "

    The Telegraph article:

    Lord Keen of Elie, a Government minister, said: “As set out in the Government’s White Paper: ‘The process for withdrawing from the European Union’, published on 29 February, the withdrawal process is unprecedented.

    “No country has ever used Article 50 – it is untested. There is a great deal of uncertainty about how it would work.

    “UK citizens get the right to live and work in the other 27 member states from our membership of the EU.

    “If the UK voted to leave the EU, the Government would do all it could to secure a positive outcome for the country, but there would be no requirement under EU law for these rights to be maintained.”


    i.e. the Home Office suggested nothing of the sort (and was actually talking about UK citizens in other EU countries, but that's by the by). What the minister actually said is exactly what the Leavers tout as an advantage of Brexit - namely that it would be up to the government of the day (and for other EU governments, in respect of UK citizens) to decide, since EU law would no longer apply. That's kinda the idea of Brexit, isn't it?

    Yes,yes all very good but please can you tell us when WW3 is to start. As I've previously mentioned I'm a bit busy in early July and have a dental appointment on the 12th so anytime after mid July would be ideal.
    Ooo I don't want WW3 starting on the 12th. It's my birthday.
    *checks diary*

    Ok I'm free on the 16th would that suit? Would you prefer a Morning or afternoon declaration of nuclear holocaust or can we just take that as read?
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,675

    Moses_ said:

    More hilarity, I see!

    The Telegraph headline: "Three million EU citizens in the UK could be deported if Britons vote for a 'Brexit', Home Office suggests "

    The Telegraph article:

    Lord Keen of Elie, a Government minister, said: “As set out in the Government’s White Paper: ‘The process for withdrawing from the European Union’, published on 29 February, the withdrawal process is unprecedented.

    “No country has ever used Article 50 – it is untested. There is a great deal of uncertainty about how it would work.

    “UK citizens get the right to live and work in the other 27 member states from our membership of the EU.

    “If the UK voted to leave the EU, the Government would do all it could to secure a positive outcome for the country, but there would be no requirement under EU law for these rights to be maintained.”


    i.e. the Home Office suggested nothing of the sort (and was actually talking about UK citizens in other EU countries, but that's by the by). What the minister actually said is exactly what the Leavers tout as an advantage of Brexit - namely that it would be up to the government of the day (and for other EU governments, in respect of UK citizens) to decide, since EU law would no longer apply. That's kinda the idea of Brexit, isn't it?

    Yes,yes all very good but please can you tell us when WW3 is to start. As I've previously mentioned I'm a bit busy in early July and have a dental appointment on the 12th so anytime after mid July would be ideal.
    You need to ask the newspapers. They made up the story.
    No they didn't. Cameron did then dumped it when he saw the adverse reaction. Unless of course you believe that the Guardian and the Times are in secret cahoots with the Leave campaign.
    It's not a loony conspiracy theory when it's proposed by Remainers remember.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048
    edited May 2016

    No they didn't. Cameron did then dumped it when he saw the adverse reaction. Unless of course you believe that the Guardian and the Times are in secret cahoots with the Leave campaign.

    So you keep saying, with zero evidence. As I said before, I go by what politicians say, not by what newspapers looking to sell copies wrongly claim they are about to say, or indeed claim they have said, such as 'Three million EU citizens in the UK could be deported if Britons vote for a 'Brexit'' which the very same article shows is garbage.
    So half a dozen newspapers - including two that support Remain - and the two main TV news channels all spontaneously decided to run the same fictional story out of the blue on the same night with no input from CCHQ?

    I know you have some wild and fanciful ideas but that really is beyond belief. You have become a parody of yourself.
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Moses_ said:


    Yes,yes all very good but please can you tell us when WW3 is to start. As I've previously mentioned I'm a bit busy in early July and have a dental appointment on the 12th so anytime after mid July would be ideal.

    I have an operation on the 24th July so that's not convenient. How's August looking?

  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    HYUFD said:

    The EU is not going to bring a case to the ECJ demanding these countries join the Euro, it is not realistic, would be ignored and if anything would push them toward the exit door themselves!

    Richard T has a religious faith in the ability of the EU to work around agreements when it suits them, except when it suits his preconceptions to have a religious faith in the absolute rigidity of the letter of EU agreements.
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    RoyalBlue said:

    Did another 2 hours' leafleting for Vote Leave this morning, as I have every Saturday and Sunday for the last two months. Have most people received literature from both sides (excluding the Government pamphlet)?

    Wiltshire... Received both
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,228

    HYUFD said:

    The EU is not going to bring a case to the ECJ demanding these countries join the Euro, it is not realistic, would be ignored and if anything would push them toward the exit door themselves!

    Richard T has a religious faith in the ability of the EU to work around agreements when it suits them, except when it suits his preconceptions to have a religious faith in the absolute rigidity of the letter of EU agreements.
    Indeed
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    RoyalBlue said:

    Wanderer said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Did another 2 hours' leafleting for Vote Leave this morning, as I have every Saturday and Sunday for the last two months. Have most people received literature from both sides (excluding the Government pamphlet)?

    No
    Very coy! Which side have you received leaflets from if any?
    The only thing I've received is the Government leaflet.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited May 2016

    So half a dozen newspapers - including two that support Remain - and the two main TV news channels all spontaneously decided to run the same fictional story out of the blue on the same night with no input from CCHQ?

    I know you have some wild and fanciful ideas but that really is beyond belief. You have become a parody of yourself.

    I didn't say they had no input. But the media obviously misunderstood, or exaggerated, the briefing, no doubt because they say an opportunity for a sensational headline.

    The wild and fanciful idea here is that Cameron would make such an obviously counter-productive claim. which is completely unsupported by his actual speech. I mean, for heaven's sake, get a grip!
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,254
    Good evening all.

    I managed to go through my entire time at school studying history with barely a mention of Hitler, there being many many period of fascinating history to learn about, and now you can barely read the paper or switch on the radio without some idiot politician referring to him. Is there something in the water at Westminster?

    This referendum is beginning to make me lose the will to live. Both campaigns are utter shite. If only they could both lose.

    O/T HMQ's Birthday celebrations on ITV from Windsor is well worth watching. Some superb horsemanship and some bizarrely entrancing acts: Switzerland's Top Secret Drummers, for instance......

    Also O/T the roses in my garden - I have 16 varieties - are full of buds and beginning to flower. It is going to be a wonderful year for them........
  • Options

    No they didn't. Cameron did then dumped it when he saw the adverse reaction. Unless of course you believe that the Guardian and the Times are in secret cahoots with the Leave campaign.

    So you keep saying, with zero evidence. As I said before, I go by what politicians say, not by what newspapers looking to sell copies wrongly claim they are about to say, or indeed claim they have said, such as 'Three million EU citizens in the UK could be deported if Britons vote for a 'Brexit'' which the very same article shows is garbage.
    So half a dozen newspapers - including two that support Remain - and the two main TV news channels all spontaneously decided to run the same fictional story out of the blue on the same night with no input from CCHQ?

    I know you have some wild and fanciful ideas but that really is beyond belief. You have become a parody of yourself.
    RichardT - You should give up trying to explain to some REMAIN people such as Richard N about how PR works with the main media.

    Meanwhile in the real world the Labour paper the Mirror is running an article from Cameron to encourage Labour people to vote for REMAIN. Cameron is trusted by just 11% of Labour voters. (Yougov). Great news for LEAVE.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,675
    Viceroy said:

    Very puzzling. This referendum feels to me like it is Leave's to lose. In reducing immigration they have by far the most accessible argument and one that Remain just cannot counter.

    Isn't there talk that Leave are keeping their powder dry and that will be near the end of the campaign? I certainly would use such a tactic: at the moment simply keep rebutting and laughing at Remain's terribly over the top scare stories which are going through one ear and out of the other (as shown by the polling).

    It reminds me of the Indyref in Scotland how the polls starting moving towards Independence in the final weeks in the face of endless Unionist bs stories. In the end, the Unionists fell back on the emotional arguments which saved the day... a problem for Remain is that there is no emotional argument for Remain.
    And perhaps even more crucially, Better Together offered 'The Vow'; which enabled people to vote 'No' with a clear conscience. I don't see how a 'Vow' can be pulled out by Cameron - Europe can't and won't stump up any serious concessions, and anything 'homegrown' would simply beg the question of why it wasn't done before.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,714
    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening all.

    I managed to go through my entire time at school studying history with barely a mention of Hitler, there being many many period of fascinating history to learn about, and now you can barely read the paper or switch on the radio without some idiot politician referring to him. Is there something in the water at Westminster?

    This referendum is beginning to make me lose the will to live. Both campaigns are utter shite. If only they could both lose.

    O/T HMQ's Birthday celebrations on ITV from Windsor is well worth watching. Some superb horsemanship and some bizarrely entrancing acts: Switzerland's Top Secret Drummers, for instance......

    Also O/T the roses in my garden - I have 16 varieties - are full of buds and beginning to flower. It is going to be a wonderful year for them........

    I hope those 16 varieties of roses are all white?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,228
    edited May 2016

    HYUFD said:

    Mortimer said:

    Are Labour going to repeat the Scottish Indy Ref mistake all over again - being on the wrong side of the argument, painted as stooges of a disliked establishment, and unable to recover afterwards?
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/15/labour-pro-eu-stance-brexit-is-recruitment-agent-for-ukip

    "Vote Leave chair says by taking position against Brexit the party shows voters worried about immigration that it does not care"

    Corbyn is quite open about the fact that he does not care about how many more migrants there are. When the debate fully focuses on immigration it could be electoral suicide for Labour.
    Most of the Labour voters who were most concerned about immigration are already in UKIP, Labour voters are now more middle class and ethnic minority than before
    Not what the Yougov data from June 2015 shows. Class DE was 2 Labour for every 1 UKIP.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2015#Voter_demographics
    Labour won 31% of the vote, UKIP 12%. Labour won 31% of C2s, so about their national voteshare. UKIP won 12% nationally and 17% of C2s so well above its national voteshare. UKIP also won 18% of DEs while Labour won 37% of DEs. DEs are more likely to be newly arrived immigrants or on welfare than C2s so less concerned by immigration so probably less room to squeeze but as I said most of those most concerned about immigration will already have moved, other Labour voters in those groups clearly put other concerns first
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:


    Yes I know you did not include Denmark in your list but that does not mean their opt-out can be ignored. In reality the others will effectively reject their Treaty commitments, none of their governments have shown the slightest inclination to join the Euro and given its recent history I doubt they ever will!

    You do understand what happens legally if you reject treaty commitments don't you? It means that the treaty falls. So you are suggesting that the treaty that forms the basis for the whole of the EU should now be ignored or rejected by several of its signatories?
    They will not explicitly reject it, just never bring it into force, they cannot, the Swedish voters for example are overwhelmingly opposed to the Euro
    The two problems with that scenario being that the EU cannot afford to go on ignoring it forever and that, more importantly, it only takes a case at the ECJ to bring it to a head. The Euro committed countries don't have a legal leg to stand on.
    The EU is not going to bring a case to the ECJ demanding these countries join the Euro, it is not realistic, would be ignored and if anything would push them toward the exit door themselves!
    Sorry HYUFD but it gets really tiring having to educate you and Richard on how the EU works. Most cases before the ECJ are not bought by the EU. They are bought by individual EU citizens. As I mentioned the other day the ECJ is not the political court it's detractors claim. But the way it is setup and the guidelines it follows give it the impression of being such because it's main aim.is to enforce the provisions if the treaties. The EU could not stop it hearing a case even if they wanted to.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,987
    RoyalBlue said:

    Did another 2 hours' leafleting for Vote Leave this morning, as I have every Saturday and Sunday for the last two months. Have most people received literature from both sides (excluding the Government pamphlet)?

    Nothing from either side. Have yet to see any local sign at all that the referendum is happening.

  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048

    HYUFD said:

    The EU is not going to bring a case to the ECJ demanding these countries join the Euro, it is not realistic, would be ignored and if anything would push them toward the exit door themselves!

    Richard T has a religious faith in the ability of the EU to work around agreements when it suits them, except when it suits his preconceptions to have a religious faith in the absolute rigidity of the letter of EU agreements.
    Nope. Just having to deal with your ignorance.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,622

    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening all.

    I managed to go through my entire time at school studying history with barely a mention of Hitler, there being many many period of fascinating history to learn about, and now you can barely read the paper or switch on the radio without some idiot politician referring to him. Is there something in the water at Westminster?

    This referendum is beginning to make me lose the will to live. Both campaigns are utter shite. If only they could both lose.

    O/T HMQ's Birthday celebrations on ITV from Windsor is well worth watching. Some superb horsemanship and some bizarrely entrancing acts: Switzerland's Top Secret Drummers, for instance......

    Also O/T the roses in my garden - I have 16 varieties - are full of buds and beginning to flower. It is going to be a wonderful year for them........

    I hope those 16 varieties of roses are all white?
    Racist REMAINER!
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Sorry HYUFD but it gets really tiring having to educate you and Richard on how the EU works. Most cases before the ECJ are not bought by the EU. They are bought by individual EU citizens. As I mentioned the other day the ECJ is not the political court it's detractors claim. But the way it is setup and the guidelines it follows give it the impression of being such because it's main aim.is to enforce the provisions if the treaties. The EU could not stop it hearing a case even if they wanted to.

    So why hasn't such a case been brought so far?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,714

    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening all.

    I managed to go through my entire time at school studying history with barely a mention of Hitler, there being many many period of fascinating history to learn about, and now you can barely read the paper or switch on the radio without some idiot politician referring to him. Is there something in the water at Westminster?

    This referendum is beginning to make me lose the will to live. Both campaigns are utter shite. If only they could both lose.

    O/T HMQ's Birthday celebrations on ITV from Windsor is well worth watching. Some superb horsemanship and some bizarrely entrancing acts: Switzerland's Top Secret Drummers, for instance......

    Also O/T the roses in my garden - I have 16 varieties - are full of buds and beginning to flower. It is going to be a wonderful year for them........

    I hope those 16 varieties of roses are all white?
    Racist REMAINER!
    The White Rose of Yorkshire old bean.
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    GeoffM said:

    Moses_ said:


    Yes,yes all very good but please can you tell us when WW3 is to start. As I've previously mentioned I'm a bit busy in early July and have a dental appointment on the 12th so anytime after mid July would be ideal.

    I have an operation on the 24th July so that's not convenient. How's August looking?

    *sighs*

    Between you and Mr Tyndall it's making the diary arrangements for WW3 increasingly difficult. I guess you must think nuclear holocaust's can just be arranged at a drop of a hat. Not to worry, will check with Dave and get back to you

    Laters.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,622

    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening all.

    I managed to go through my entire time at school studying history with barely a mention of Hitler, there being many many period of fascinating history to learn about, and now you can barely read the paper or switch on the radio without some idiot politician referring to him. Is there something in the water at Westminster?

    This referendum is beginning to make me lose the will to live. Both campaigns are utter shite. If only they could both lose.

    O/T HMQ's Birthday celebrations on ITV from Windsor is well worth watching. Some superb horsemanship and some bizarrely entrancing acts: Switzerland's Top Secret Drummers, for instance......

    Also O/T the roses in my garden - I have 16 varieties - are full of buds and beginning to flower. It is going to be a wonderful year for them........

    I hope those 16 varieties of roses are all white?
    Racist REMAINER!
    The White Rose of Yorkshire old bean.
    Yeah, yeah - we believe you :lol:
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048

    So half a dozen newspapers - including two that support Remain - and the two main TV news channels all spontaneously decided to run the same fictional story out of the blue on the same night with no input from CCHQ?

    I know you have some wild and fanciful ideas but that really is beyond belief. You have become a parody of yourself.

    I didn't say they had no input. But the media obviously misunderstood, or exaggerated, the briefing, no doubt because they say an opportunity for a sensational headline.

    The wild and fanciful idea here is that Cameron would make such an obviously counter-productive claim. which is completely unsupported by his actual speech. I mean, for heaven's sake, get a grip!
    Why? When you consider how many.other wild and unsupportable claims he has made.
  • Options
    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited May 2016

    Viceroy said:

    Very puzzling. This referendum feels to me like it is Leave's to lose. In reducing immigration they have by far the most accessible argument and one that Remain just cannot counter.

    Isn't there talk that Leave are keeping their powder dry and that will be near the end of the campaign? I certainly would use such a tactic: at the moment simply keep rebutting and laughing at Remain's terribly over the top scare stories which are going through one ear and out of the other (as shown by the polling).

    It reminds me of the Indyref in Scotland how the polls starting moving towards Independence in the final weeks in the face of endless Unionist bs stories. In the end, the Unionists fell back on the emotional arguments which saved the day... a problem for Remain is that there is no emotional argument for Remain.
    And perhaps even more crucially, Better Together offered 'The Vow'; which enabled people to vote 'No' with a clear conscience. I don't see how a 'Vow' can be pulled out by Cameron - Europe can't and won't stump up any serious concessions, and anything 'homegrown' would simply beg the question of why it wasn't done before.
    Compare.
    Scots referendum. The No (IN) campaign recognised that Labour voters were key and appointed Labour's Alistair Darling as its front man. Darling had a 56% trust rating with SLAB voters in the week before the vote.

    European referendum. The biggest group of voters for REMAIN (IN) is going to come from Labour voters. REMAIN has had Cameron fronting REMAIN for 11 weeks. Cameron has an 11% trust rating with Labour voters.

    Anyone explain the logic?

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,228

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:


    Yes I know you did not include Denmark in your list but that does not mean their opt-out can be ignored. In reality the others will effectively reject their Treaty commitments, none of their governments have shown the slightest inclination to join the Euro and given its recent history I doubt they ever will!

    You do understand what happens legally if you reject treaty commitments don't you? It means that the treaty falls. So you are suggesting that the treaty that forms the basis for the whole of the EU should now be ignored or rejected by several of its signatories?
    They will not explicitly reject it, just never bring it into force, they cannot, the Swedish voters for example are overwhelmingly opposed to the Euro
    The two problems with that scenario being that the EU cannot afford to go on ignoring it forever and that, more importantly, it only takes a case at the ECJ to bring it to a head. The Euro committed countries don't have a legal leg to stand on.
    The EU is not going to bring a case to the ECJ demanding these countries join the Euro, it is not realistic, would be ignored and if anything would push them toward the exit door themselves!
    Sorry HYUFD but it gets really tiring having to educate you and Richard on how the EU works. Most cases before the ECJ are not bought by the EU. They are bought by individual EU citizens. As I mentioned the other day the ECJ is not the political court it's detractors claim. But the way it is setup and the guidelines it follows give it the impression of being such because it's main aim.is to enforce the provisions if the treaties. The EU could not stop it hearing a case even if they wanted to.
    I await with interest a case to be brought by an arch Federalist Swede demanding his country joins the Euro with immediate effect!
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    RoyalBlue said:

    Did another 2 hours' leafleting for Vote Leave this morning, as I have every Saturday and Sunday for the last two months. Have most people received literature from both sides (excluding the Government pamphlet)?

    Nothing from either side. Have yet to see any local sign at all that the referendum is happening.

    I'm politically engaged, just about everybody that knows me is aware of that, virtually nobody discusses the referendum. I stand by my ongoing assertion that Leave wins on a low turnout.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,714

    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening all.

    I managed to go through my entire time at school studying history with barely a mention of Hitler, there being many many period of fascinating history to learn about, and now you can barely read the paper or switch on the radio without some idiot politician referring to him. Is there something in the water at Westminster?

    This referendum is beginning to make me lose the will to live. Both campaigns are utter shite. If only they could both lose.

    O/T HMQ's Birthday celebrations on ITV from Windsor is well worth watching. Some superb horsemanship and some bizarrely entrancing acts: Switzerland's Top Secret Drummers, for instance......

    Also O/T the roses in my garden - I have 16 varieties - are full of buds and beginning to flower. It is going to be a wonderful year for them........

    I hope those 16 varieties of roses are all white?
    Racist REMAINER!
    The White Rose of Yorkshire old bean.
    Yeah, yeah - we believe you :lol:
    Is Kippers and Leavers who are the real racists. See below

    https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/731937712152907776
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited May 2016

    Why? When you consider how many.other wild and unsupportable claims he has made.

    Yes, exactly. You think he must have made such a claim, because of your prejudice against him.

    I'm a simpler sort of chap. Given the opportunity, as here, to read the actual words he said, I rely on that, not on third-party accounts of what he allegedly might have been about to say.

    This is a good approach, I recommend it. If more people followed it, they wouldn't get so excited over nonsense.
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536

    So half a dozen newspapers - including two that support Remain - and the two main TV news channels all spontaneously decided to run the same fictional story out of the blue on the same night with no input from CCHQ?

    I know you have some wild and fanciful ideas but that really is beyond belief. You have become a parody of yourself.

    I didn't say they had no input. But the media obviously misunderstood, or exaggerated, the briefing, no doubt because they say an opportunity for a sensational headline.

    The wild and fanciful idea here is that Cameron would make such an obviously counter-productive claim. which is completely unsupported by his actual speech. I mean, for heaven's sake, get a grip!
    Why? When you consider how many.other wild and unsupportable claims he has made.
    Most of which Richard N has enthusiastically parroted.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:


    Yes I know you did not include Denmark in your list but that does not mean their opt-out can be ignored. In reality the others will effectively reject their Treaty commitments, none of their governments have shown the slightest inclination to join the Euro and given its recent history I doubt they ever will!

    You do understand what happens legally if you reject treaty commitments don't you? It means that the treaty falls. So you are suggesting that the treaty that forms the basis for the whole of the EU should now be ignored or rejected by several of its signatories?
    They will not explicitly reject it, just never bring it into force, they cannot, the Swedish voters for example are overwhelmingly opposed to the Euro
    The two problems with that scenario being that the EU cannot afford to go on ignoring it forever and that, more importantly, it only takes a case at the ECJ to bring it to a head. The Euro committed countries don't have a legal leg to stand on.
    The EU is not going to bring a case to the ECJ demanding these countries join the Euro, it is not realistic, would be ignored and if anything would push them toward the exit door themselves!
    Sorry HYUFD but it gets really tiring having to educate you and Richard on how the EU works. Most cases before the ECJ are not bought by the EU. They are bought by individual EU citizens. As I mentioned the other day the ECJ is not the political court it's detractors claim. But the way it is setup and the guidelines it follows give it the impression of being such because it's main aim.is to enforce the provisions if the treaties. The EU could not stop it hearing a case even if they wanted to.
    I await with interest a case to be brought by an arch Federalist Swede demanding his country joins the Euro with immediate effect!
    It won't be. It will be brought by a German or Belgian businessman complaining about the unfair advantage that a Swedish company is enjoying being outside the Eurozone. The pressure isn't there yet but it will come.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,105
    edited May 2016

    Viceroy said:

    Very puzzling. This referendum feels to me like it is Leave's to lose. In reducing immigration they have by far the most accessible argument and one that Remain just cannot counter.

    Isn't there talk that Leave are keeping their powder dry and that will be near the end of the campaign? I certainly would use such a tactic: at the moment simply keep rebutting and laughing at Remain's terribly over the top scare stories which are going through one ear and out of the other (as shown by the polling).

    It reminds me of the Indyref in Scotland how the polls starting moving towards Independence in the final weeks in the face of endless Unionist bs stories. In the end, the Unionists fell back on the emotional arguments which saved the day... a problem for Remain is that there is no emotional argument for Remain.
    And perhaps even more crucially, Better Together offered 'The Vow'; which enabled people to vote 'No' with a clear conscience. I don't see how a 'Vow' can be pulled out by Cameron - Europe can't and won't stump up any serious concessions, and anything 'homegrown' would simply beg the question of why it wasn't done before.
    Compare.
    Scots referendum. The No (IN) campaign recognised that Labour voters were key and appointed Labour's Alistair Darling as its front man. Darling had a 56% trust rating with SLAB voters in the week before the vote.

    European referendum. The biggest group of voters for REMAIN (IN) is going to come from Labour voters. REMAIN has had Cameron fronting REMAIN for 11 weeks. Cameron has an 11% trust rating with Labour voters.

    Anyone explain the logic?

    Who from Labour is stepping up? They have their own In campaign, I believe, but I've heard nothing about it. Granted the PM is hard to upstage, but he has to win as many Tories as possible to try to get a big win and, also, save his job. Labour need to speak to the larger mass of their people too.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    I'm not a soccer fan per se, but am loving a book called Soccernomics. It's similar to sabermetrics about baseball I think.

    It contains a chapter called 'Why England loses'. It can be summed up as 'you overvalue your football heritage and undervalue the benefits of innovation'.

    Is that a fair assessment?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,228

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:


    Yes I know you did not include Denmark in your list but that does not mean their opt-out can be ignored. In reality the others will effectively reject their Treaty commitments, none of their governments have shown the slightest inclination to join the Euro and given its recent history I doubt they ever will!

    You do understand what happens legally if you reject treaty commitments don't you? It means that the treaty falls. So you are suggesting that the treaty that forms the basis for the whole of the EU should now be ignored or rejected by several of its signatories?
    They will not explicitly reject it, just never bring it into force, they cannot, the Swedish voters for example are overwhelmingly opposed to the Euro
    The two problems with that scenario being that the EU cannot afford to go on ignoring it forever and that, more importantly, it only takes a case at the ECJ to bring it to a head. The Euro committed countries don't have a legal leg to stand on.
    The EU is not going to bring a case to the ECJ demanding these countries join the Euro, it is not realistic, would be ignored and if anything would push them toward the exit door themselves!
    Sorry HYUFD but it gets really tiring having to educate you and Richard on how the EU works. Most cases before the ECJ are not bought by the EU. They are bought by individual EU citizens. As I mentioned the other day the ECJ is not the political court it's detractors claim. But the way it is setup and the guidelines it follows give it the impression of being such because it's main aim.is to enforce the provisions if the treaties. The EU could not stop it hearing a case even if they wanted to.
    I await with interest a case to be brought by an arch Federalist Swede demanding his country joins the Euro with immediate effect!
    It won't be. It will be brought by a German or Belgian businessman complaining about the unfair advantage that a Swedish company is enjoying being outside the Eurozone. The pressure isn't there yet but it will come.
    What unfair advantage? If anything the Germans are turning against the Eurozone themselves with the rise of the AfD!
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited May 2016

    It won't be. It will be brought by a German or Belgian businessman complaining about the unfair advantage that a Swedish company is enjoying being outside the Eurozone. The pressure isn't there yet but it will come.

    Thanks for that! It gave me a good laugh to see the sort of religious faith espoused by cults so clearly laid bare. Yes, I'm sure the day will come. Just not quite yet. After all, you've only been waiting 23 years so far - but keep the faith!

    Edit: Sorry, 21 years.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,333
    Tim_B said:

    I'm not a soccer fan per se, but am loving a book called Soccernomics. It's similar to sabermetrics about baseball I think.

    It contains a chapter called 'Why England loses'. It can be summed up as 'you overvalue your football heritage and undervalue the benefits of innovation'.

    Is that a fair assessment?

    Read the book a few years ago, deeply flawed in general.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,254

    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening all.

    I managed to go through my entire time at school studying history with barely a mention of Hitler, there being many many period of fascinating history to learn about, and now you can barely read the paper or switch on the radio without some idiot politician referring to him. Is there something in the water at Westminster?

    This referendum is beginning to make me lose the will to live. Both campaigns are utter shite. If only they could both lose.

    O/T HMQ's Birthday celebrations on ITV from Windsor is well worth watching. Some superb horsemanship and some bizarrely entrancing acts: Switzerland's Top Secret Drummers, for instance......

    Also O/T the roses in my garden - I have 16 varieties - are full of buds and beginning to flower. It is going to be a wonderful year for them........

    I hope those 16 varieties of roses are all white?
    Racist REMAINER!
    The White Rose of Yorkshire old bean.
    Well, the main white one is that superb climber - Mme Alfred Carriere - and on the opposite trellis I have a red climber - Rosa Moyesi.

    Were I to describe my roses - and indeed my garden more generally - the thread would be more interesting (to me, anyway!) but would have morphed into Gardener's World.

    Mind you, I'm prettier than Monty Don, have just as nice a dog, a garden much more like that of most ordinary people .... And can talk the hind legs off a donkey!

    Why I haven't been called by the BBC is a mystery! Tips on gardening, interspersed with comments on City crooks and politics and advice on public etiquette and shoes. What's not to love?!
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Viceroy said:

    Very puzzling. This referendum feels to me like it is Leave's to lose. In reducing immigration they have by far the most accessible argument and one that Remain just cannot counter.

    Isn't there talk that Leave are keeping their powder dry and that will be near the end of the campaign? I certainly would use such a tactic: at the moment simply keep rebutting and laughing at Remain's terribly over the top scare stories which are going through one ear and out of the other (as shown by the polling).

    It reminds me of the Indyref in Scotland how the polls starting moving towards Independence in the final weeks in the face of endless Unionist bs stories. In the end, the Unionists fell back on the emotional arguments which saved the day... a problem for Remain is that there is no emotional argument for Remain.
    And perhaps even more crucially, Better Together offered 'The Vow'; which enabled people to vote 'No' with a clear conscience. I don't see how a 'Vow' can be pulled out by Cameron - Europe can't and won't stump up any serious concessions, and anything 'homegrown' would simply beg the question of why it wasn't done before.
    Compare.
    Scots referendum. The No (IN) campaign recognised that Labour voters were key and appointed Labour's Alistair Darling as its front man. Darling had a 56% trust rating with SLAB voters in the week before the vote.

    European referendum. The biggest group of voters for REMAIN (IN) is going to come from Labour voters. REMAIN has had Cameron fronting REMAIN for 11 weeks. Cameron has an 11% trust rating with Labour voters.

    Anyone explain the logic?

    Who from Labour is stepping up? They have their own In campaign, I believe, but I've heard nothing about it.
    I do not know but compare Cameron's 11% with GB Labour voters with the 33% of SLAB voters Cameron had their trust on for his advice in the Scots referendum in 2014......

    Maybe SLAB voters just liked his surname?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,714
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening all.

    I managed to go through my entire time at school studying history with barely a mention of Hitler, there being many many period of fascinating history to learn about, and now you can barely read the paper or switch on the radio without some idiot politician referring to him. Is there something in the water at Westminster?

    This referendum is beginning to make me lose the will to live. Both campaigns are utter shite. If only they could both lose.

    O/T HMQ's Birthday celebrations on ITV from Windsor is well worth watching. Some superb horsemanship and some bizarrely entrancing acts: Switzerland's Top Secret Drummers, for instance......

    Also O/T the roses in my garden - I have 16 varieties - are full of buds and beginning to flower. It is going to be a wonderful year for them........

    I hope those 16 varieties of roses are all white?
    Racist REMAINER!
    The White Rose of Yorkshire old bean.
    Well, the main white one is that superb climber - Mme Alfred Carriere - and on the opposite trellis I have a red climber - Rosa Moyesi.

    Were I to describe my roses - and indeed my garden more generally - the thread would be more interesting (to me, anyway!) but would have morphed into Gardener's World.

    Mind you, I'm prettier than Monty Don, have just as nice a dog, a garden much more like that of most ordinary people .... And can talk the hind legs off a donkey!

    Why I haven't been called by the BBC is a mystery! Tips on gardening, interspersed with comments on City crooks and politics and advice on public etiquette and shoes. What's not to love?!
    You can talk about what you want to talk about.

    My hayfever precludes me from being a gardener.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited May 2016

    Tim_B said:

    I'm not a soccer fan per se, but am loving a book called Soccernomics. It's similar to sabermetrics about baseball I think.

    It contains a chapter called 'Why England loses'. It can be summed up as 'you overvalue your football heritage and undervalue the benefits of innovation'.

    Is that a fair assessment?

    Read the book a few years ago, deeply flawed in general.
    That's not helpful - for example?

    Some of the regression analysis is flawed.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,228

    Viceroy said:

    Very puzzling. This referendum feels to me like it is Leave's to lose. In reducing immigration they have by far the most accessible argument and one that Remain just cannot counter.

    Isn't there talk that Leave are keeping their powder dry and that will be near the end of the campaign? I certainly would use such a tactic: at the moment simply keep rebutting and laughing at Remain's terribly over the top scare stories which are going through one ear and out of the other (as shown by the polling).

    It reminds me of the Indyref in Scotland how the polls starting moving towards Independence in the final weeks in the face of endless Unionist bs stories. In the end, the Unionists fell back on the emotional arguments which saved the day... a problem for Remain is that there is no emotional argument for Remain.
    And perhaps even more crucially, Better Together offered 'The Vow'; which enabled people to vote 'No' with a clear conscience. I don't see how a 'Vow' can be pulled out by Cameron - Europe can't and won't stump up any serious concessions, and anything 'homegrown' would simply beg the question of why it wasn't done before.
    Compare.
    Scots referendum. The No (IN) campaign recognised that Labour voters were key and appointed Labour's Alistair Darling as its front man. Darling had a 56% trust rating with SLAB voters in the week before the vote.

    European referendum. The biggest group of voters for REMAIN (IN) is going to come from Labour voters. REMAIN has had Cameron fronting REMAIN for 11 weeks. Cameron has an 11% trust rating with Labour voters.

    Anyone explain the logic?

    Remain cannot win with Labour voters alone, it has to get at least 35-40% of Tory voters + which is why it needs Cameron. In Scotland Tory voters were overwhelmingly for the Union, it needed a majority of Labour voters too which was why Darling fronted the campaign
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,622
    Tim_B said:

    I'm not a soccer fan per se, but am loving a book called Soccernomics. It's similar to sabermetrics about baseball I think.

    It contains a chapter called 'Why England loses'. It can be summed up as 'you overvalue your football heritage and undervalue the benefits of innovation'.

    Is that a fair assessment?

    Americans playing FOOTball with their hands :lol:
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening all.

    I managed to go through my entire time at school studying history with barely a mention of Hitler, there being many many period of fascinating history to learn about, and now you can barely read the paper or switch on the radio without some idiot politician referring to him. Is there something in the water at Westminster?

    This referendum is beginning to make me lose the will to live. Both campaigns are utter shite. If only they could both lose.

    O/T HMQ's Birthday celebrations on ITV from Windsor is well worth watching. Some superb horsemanship and some bizarrely entrancing acts: Switzerland's Top Secret Drummers, for instance......

    Also O/T the roses in my garden - I have 16 varieties - are full of buds and beginning to flower. It is going to be a wonderful year for them........

    I hope those 16 varieties of roses are all white?
    Racist REMAINER!
    The White Rose of Yorkshire old bean.
    Yeah, yeah - we believe you :lol:
    Is Kippers and Leavers who are the real racists. See below

    https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/731937712152907776
    Calling Leavers racist eh? Good luck with making friends on 24/6
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,228

    Viceroy said:

    Very puzzling. This referendum feels to me like it is Leave's to lose. In reducing immigration they have by far the most accessible argument and one that Remain just cannot counter.

    Isn't there talk that Leave are keeping their powder dry and that will be near the end of the campaign? I certainly would use such a tactic: at the moment simply keep rebutting and laughing at Remain's terribly over the top scare stories which are going through one ear and out of the other (as shown by the polling).

    It reminds me of the Indyref in Scotland how the polls starting moving towards Independence in the final weeks in the face of endless Unionist bs stories. In the end, the Unionists fell back on the emotional arguments which saved the day... a problem for Remain is that there is no emotional argument for Remain.
    And perhaps even more crucially, Better Together offered 'The Vow'; which enabled people to vote 'No' with a clear conscience. I don't see how a 'Vow' can be pulled out by Cameron - Europe can't and won't stump up any serious concessions, and anything 'homegrown' would simply beg the question of why it wasn't done before.
    'The Vow' if anything occurred at the beginning of the campaign but I don't think the 'Vow' in Scotland was pivotal it just gave No a slightly larger margin of victory
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Tim_B said:

    I'm not a soccer fan per se, but am loving a book called Soccernomics. It's similar to sabermetrics about baseball I think.

    It contains a chapter called 'Why England loses'. It can be summed up as 'you overvalue your football heritage and undervalue the benefits of innovation'.

    Is that a fair assessment?

    In the Chapter on why England loses it should just say:

    We try our very best but we're not very good at football.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited May 2016

    Tim_B said:

    I'm not a soccer fan per se, but am loving a book called Soccernomics. It's similar to sabermetrics about baseball I think.

    It contains a chapter called 'Why England loses'. It can be summed up as 'you overvalue your football heritage and undervalue the benefits of innovation'.

    Is that a fair assessment?

    Americans playing FOOTball with their hands :lol:
    You keep harping on about this - both codes of rugby football (union and league) are played with the hands, as is Aussie rules football.
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Tim_B said:

    I'm not a soccer fan per se, but am loving a book called Soccernomics. It's similar to sabermetrics about baseball I think.

    It contains a chapter called 'Why England loses'. It can be summed up as 'you overvalue your football heritage and undervalue the benefits of innovation'.

    Is that a fair assessment?

    Americans playing FOOTball with their hands :lol:
    And lots of padding ?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,714

    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening all.

    I managed to go through my entire time at school studying history with barely a mention of Hitler, there being many many period of fascinating history to learn about, and now you can barely read the paper or switch on the radio without some idiot politician referring to him. Is there something in the water at Westminster?

    This referendum is beginning to make me lose the will to live. Both campaigns are utter shite. If only they could both lose.

    O/T HMQ's Birthday celebrations on ITV from Windsor is well worth watching. Some superb horsemanship and some bizarrely entrancing acts: Switzerland's Top Secret Drummers, for instance......

    Also O/T the roses in my garden - I have 16 varieties - are full of buds and beginning to flower. It is going to be a wonderful year for them........

    I hope those 16 varieties of roses are all white?
    Racist REMAINER!
    The White Rose of Yorkshire old bean.
    Yeah, yeah - we believe you :lol:
    Is Kippers and Leavers who are the real racists. See below

    https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/731937712152907776
    Calling Leavers racist eh? Good luck with making friends on 24/6
    Oh God, you need to read the context of my post.

    Sunil jokingly called me a Racist Remainer because of my White Rose post, and I replied in kind.

    Try reading and before opening your gob, and sticking your feet in there, and deciding to shoot said feet.
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening all.

    I managed to go through my entire time at school studying history with barely a mention of Hitler, there being many many period of fascinating history to learn about, and now you can barely read the paper or switch on the radio without some idiot politician referring to him. Is there something in the water at Westminster?

    This referendum is beginning to make me lose the will to live. Both campaigns are utter shite. If only they could both lose.

    O/T HMQ's Birthday celebrations on ITV from Windsor is well worth watching. Some superb horsemanship and some bizarrely entrancing acts: Switzerland's Top Secret Drummers, for instance......

    Also O/T the roses in my garden - I have 16 varieties - are full of buds and beginning to flower. It is going to be a wonderful year for them........

    I hope those 16 varieties of roses are all white?
    Racist REMAINER!
    The White Rose of Yorkshire old bean.
    Yeah, yeah - we believe you :lol:
    Is Kippers and Leavers who are the real racists. See below

    https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/731937712152907776
    The British Brainwashing Corporation's days are numbered, hopefully.

    The woman in question couldn't act to save her life, in any event...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,228

    kle4 said:

    Viceroy said:

    Very puzzling. This referendum feels to me like it is Leave's to lose. In reducing immigration they have by far the most accessible argument and one that Remain just cannot counter.

    Isn't there talk that Leave are keeping their powder dry and that will be near the end of the campaign? I certainly would use such a tactic: at the moment simply keep rebutting and laughing at Remain's terribly over the top scare stories which are going through one ear and out of the other (as shown by the polling).

    It reminds me of the Indyref in Scotland how the polls starting moving towards Independence in the final weeks in the face of endless Unionist bs stories. In the end, the Unionists fell back on the emotional arguments which saved the day... a problem for Remain is that there is no emotional argument for Remain.
    And perhaps even more crucially, Better Together offered 'The Vow'; which enabled people to vote 'No' with a clear conscience. I don't see how a 'Vow' can be pulled out by Cameron - Europe can't and won't stump up any serious concessions, and anything 'homegrown' would simply beg the question of why it wasn't done before.
    Compare.
    Scots referendum. The No (IN) campaign recognised that Labour voters were key and appointed Labour's Alistair Darling as its front man. Darling had a 56% trust rating with SLAB voters in the week before the vote.

    European referendum. The biggest group of voters for REMAIN (IN) is going to come from Labour voters. REMAIN has had Cameron fronting REMAIN for 11 weeks. Cameron has an 11% trust rating with Labour voters.

    Anyone explain the logic?

    Who from Labour is stepping up? They have their own In campaign, I believe, but I've heard nothing about it.
    I do not know but compare Cameron's 11% with GB Labour voters with the 33% of SLAB voters Cameron had their trust on for his advice in the Scots referendum in 2014......

    Maybe SLAB voters just liked his surname?
    Khan will be playing a big role for London's Labour In campaign
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening all.

    I managed to go through my entire time at school studying history with barely a mention of Hitler, there being many many period of fascinating history to learn about, and now you can barely read the paper or switch on the radio without some idiot politician referring to him. Is there something in the water at Westminster?

    This referendum is beginning to make me lose the will to live. Both campaigns are utter shite. If only they could both lose.

    O/T HMQ's Birthday celebrations on ITV from Windsor is well worth watching. Some superb horsemanship and some bizarrely entrancing acts: Switzerland's Top Secret Drummers, for instance......

    Also O/T the roses in my garden - I have 16 varieties - are full of buds and beginning to flower. It is going to be a wonderful year for them........

    I hope those 16 varieties of roses are all white?
    Racist REMAINER!
    The White Rose of Yorkshire old bean.
    Yeah, yeah - we believe you :lol:
    Is Kippers and Leavers who are the real racists. See below

    https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/731937712152907776
    Calling Leavers racist eh? Good luck with making friends on 24/6
    Oh God, you need to read the context of my post.

    Sunil jokingly called me a Racist Remainer because of my White Rose post, and I replied in kind.

    Try reading and before opening your gob, and sticking your feet in there, and deciding to shoot said feet.
    Yeah, I read it, you showed a tweet from a Ukip bloke and a picture of a black person and said Ukip and Leavers are racist. Oh, but it was a joke, because you've got a kooky sense of humour. You want it both ways mate, you're happy to wave the racist card about if it suits you.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,714

    Cyclefree said:

    Good evening all.

    I managed to go through my entire time at school studying history with barely a mention of Hitler, there being many many period of fascinating history to learn about, and now you can barely read the paper or switch on the radio without some idiot politician referring to him. Is there something in the water at Westminster?

    This referendum is beginning to make me lose the will to live. Both campaigns are utter shite. If only they could both lose.

    O/T HMQ's Birthday celebrations on ITV from Windsor is well worth watching. Some superb horsemanship and some bizarrely entrancing acts: Switzerland's Top Secret Drummers, for instance......

    Also O/T the roses in my garden - I have 16 varieties - are full of buds and beginning to flower. It is going to be a wonderful year for them........

    I hope those 16 varieties of roses are all white?
    Racist REMAINER!
    The White Rose of Yorkshire old bean.
    Yeah, yeah - we believe you :lol:
    Is Kippers and Leavers who are the real racists. See below

    https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/731937712152907776
    Calling Leavers racist eh? Good luck with making friends on 24/6
    Oh God, you need to read the context of my post.

    Sunil jokingly called me a Racist Remainer because of my White Rose post, and I replied in kind.

    Try reading and before opening your gob, and sticking your feet in there, and deciding to shoot said feet.
    Yeah, I read it, you showed a tweet from a Ukip bloke and a picture of a black person and said Ukip and Leavers are racist. Oh, but it was a joke, because you've got a kooky sense of humour. You want it both ways mate, you're happy to wave the racist card about if it suits you.
    Don't be an idiot, Sunil, who is a Leaver initially joked about Racist Remainers.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,254
    @TSE: I suffer from asthma and am allergic to tree pollen. Probably the reason I got hospitalised in NY last month. Hasn't stopped me being a passionate gardener. Keeps me sane. If only I could monetise my passion.....
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,333
    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    I'm not a soccer fan per se, but am loving a book called Soccernomics. It's similar to sabermetrics about baseball I think.

    It contains a chapter called 'Why England loses'. It can be summed up as 'you overvalue your football heritage and undervalue the benefits of innovation'.

    Is that a fair assessment?

    Read the book a few years ago, deeply flawed in general.
    That's not helpful - for example?

    Some of the regression analysis is flawed.
    It's 5 years since I read it so I can't pull an example out, but although quite an enjoyable reason most of their modelling isnt very good or thorough enough. In comparison the original freakonomics book is all tales of peer reviewed research (and even then some is debatable, but you can go & actually read the models in the academic literature).
This discussion has been closed.