I wouldn't normally cite Heffer, however he's making the Boris point too. DT clearly thinks this is a winner with their readers.
The curious thing about that argument, if you agree with it, is that Boris is proposing that instead of standing up to the Germans like Churchill we run away and hide.
It's bizarre
It's been clearly demonstrated that we are unable to deflect the EU from its centralising/federaling agenda.
Given that we're voting in the full knowledge of this fact, there are three options:
(1) Vote to Remain, and carry on as we have been, carping about and/or resisting centralisation in (as it will be seen in other EU capitals) direct contradiction to the public vote, thus frustrating and irritating other EU leaders; (2) Vote to Remain and sign up to the agenda, joining Schengen and the Euro as soon as possible and certainly within 5 years; (3) Vote to Leave.
I can't understand why so many people think option 1 is the best.
Because Option 3 is being propounded by people who think that Germany is establishing a Fourth Reich.
Which is a logical fallacy.
Not at all.
Yes it is: judging an argument by some of the other beliefs of some of the people making it is just about the worst logical fallacy in the book.
Since it would be inevitable after a Leave vote that the government would be controlled by Leavers
It's inevitable that after a Leave vote the government would be controlled by the British people through the medium of parliamentary elections, just like now. And I trust the British people on the whole to make sensible decisions in parliamentary elections.
Not, potentially, for the next four years. Why should I risk giving Liam Fox, Iain Duncan Smith or Jacob Rees-Mogg more power?
I don't know whether you don't get it, or don't want to, but the 'dull competence' of these powerful people you so admire doesn't exist.
You can wheel in as many of the great and good as you like but in a world where CEOs trough salaries 150* that of their employees (hat tip Boris) all the likes of Lagarde, Carney and Obama are seen as is mill owners trying to feed propaganda to further they and their Oligarchies nests.
It's great to see that Boris has suddenly discovered the earnings gap. But it's unclear how that squares with his oft-stated belief that very rich people should be paying even less tax than they do now.
Consistency was never his long suit though was it? I seem to remember he used to talk a lot about the importance of family life and supporting marriage as well...
Yep, Boris is so eaten up with concern about this issue that he has never taken any steps as either an MP or as London mayor to do anything about it.
That would be the same Boris leading the Leave campaign who described himself eight months ago as "basically pro immigration" and calling for an illegal immigrant amnesty?
Of course the prevailing wind was different that day...
But, but, but ... Hitler
Of course, like many Leavers on here, eight months ago Boris was a fully signed up supporter og government fiscal and economic policies predicated on EU membership and large scale immigration.
“I believe that will mean net migration to this country will be in the order of tens of thousands each year, not the hundreds of thousands every year that we have seen over the last decade. Britain will always be open to the best and brightest from around the world and those fleeing persecution. But with us, our borders will be under control and immigration will be at levels our country can manage. No ifs. No buts. That’s a promise we made to the British people, and it’s a promise we are keeping.”
I wonder if Nigel will use that on ITV?
He should do - it was a foolish promise to make & Cameron deserves to have it thrown back at him.
@ThreeQuidder Those people will get more influence by being part of the cabal that will take over the direction of this government. It's not complicated.
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.
An article destined to piss off Zoomers and Brexiteers both. Ruth Davidson in The Times
There are two key lessons to draw between the two votes. The first is what might be described as the certainty test. In the independence referendum, the SNP was at its happiest when condemning the institutions of the UK. It was at its weakest when trying to explain how exactly it intended to replace them. In short, it didn’t have a clue.
I do not accuse my colleagues in the Out campaign of matching Alex Salmond’s egregious fantasy economics. However, there are similarities. Outers offer trenchant criticisms of the status quo. Less persuasive are the arguments for showing how Brexit would be better, or even an agreed position of what it might look like.
@ThreeQuidder Those people will get more influence by being part of the cabal that will take over the direction of this government. It's not complicated.
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.
What has proved true is that your illogical decision has caused you to be increasingly swivel-eyed, both above and below the line.
A "cabal"? "Taking over the direction of the government"? Jesus wept.
@ThreeQuidder Those people will get more influence by being part of the cabal that will take over the direction of this government. It's not complicated.
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.
A "cabal"? "Taking over the direction of the government"? Jesus wept.
At least Mr Meeks left the 'H-word' out of it......
Given how often the Great & Good have been wrong on the ERM, Euro, 2008 crash, forecasting in general - it'd be refreshing to understand why Remainers are so keen to believe them now.
Or are they just a fig-leaf for their own position?
Cameron is throwing the kitchen sink at this. He must belief his own rhetoric. I think he is writing his own legacy, in that he now does not care as much about his own party but becoming an historical prime minister of note. He will bow out undefeated in general elections and securing EU membership. In recent times that puts him in the Blair, Wilson, Group and above Brown, Eden, Douglas -Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major.
@ThreeQuidder After a Leave vote do you expect David Cameron to carry on as before? Far more likely, he will resign and be replaced, in all likelihood by a prominent Leaver. That Leaver will then appoint his pals to the key positions.
If David Cameron does cling to office, he will be surrounded, perforce, by prominent Leavers, who will then dictate central aspects of government policy on what will then become the all-consuming topic of the next few years.
Either way we can look forward to a government dominated by headbangers who cheerfully liken the EU to a Fourth Reich.
@ThreeQuidder Those people will get more influence by being part of the cabal that will take over the direction of this government. It's not complicated.
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.
A "cabal"? "Taking over the direction of the government"? Jesus wept.
At least Mr Meeks left the 'H-word' out of it......
Humility? Well, nobody's ever accused him of that...
Cameron is throwing the kitchen sink at this. He must belief his own rhetoric. I think he is writing his own legacy, in that he now does not care as much about his own party but becoming an historical prime minister of note. He will bow out undefeated in general elections and securing EU membership. In recent times that puts him in the Blair, Wilson, Group and above Brown, Eden, Douglas -Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major.
@PeterMannionMP: 300 business people, incl • somebody you've never heard of; • someone who used to be somebody you've never heard of; sign VoteLeave letter.
@PeterMannionMP: ..and all signatories 'in a personal capacity' because many companies they work do not back #Leave. #StrongerIn
Cameron is throwing the kitchen sink at this. He must belief his own rhetoric. I think he is writing his own legacy, in that he now does not care as much about his own party but becoming an historical prime minister of note. He will bow out undefeated in general elections and securing EU membership. In recent times that puts him in the Blair, Wilson, Group and above Brown, Eden, Douglas -Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major.
Yes...3 million expulsions, £4300 losses per household, World War III...
...you might well refer to anyone coming out with this kind of hysterical rhetoric as 'baying at the moon'.
Definitely not the dull competence we want from our leaders.
That Leaver will then appoint his pals to the key positions.
If they want to win the next election, they'll have a balanced cabinet, moving out a few people who are only their because of their loyalty to Cameron and/or Osborne.
who will then dictate central aspects of government policy on what will then become the all-consuming topic of the next few years.
Keeping Corbyn and McDonnell away from Downing Street.
This referendum will settle it - either we Leave or we Remain. What we won't do is have another referendum any time soon, probably not in my lifetime unless the pro-EUers grow a pair and actually openly advocate for federalism.
That Leaver will then appoint his pals to the key positions.
If they want to win the next election, they'll have a balanced cabinet, moving out a few people who are only their because of their loyalty to Cameron and/or Osborne.
who will then dictate central aspects of government policy on what will then become the all-consuming topic of the next few years.
Keeping Corbyn and McDonnell away from Downing Street.
This referendum will settle it - either we Leave or we Remain. What we won't do is have another referendum any time soon, probably not in my lifetime unless the pro-EUers grow a pair and actually openly advocate for federalism.
Cameron is throwing the kitchen sink at this. He must belief his own rhetoric. I think he is writing his own legacy, in that he now does not care as much about his own party but becoming an historical prime minister of note. He will bow out undefeated in general elections and securing EU membership. In recent times that puts him in the Blair, Wilson, Group and above Brown, Eden, Douglas -Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major.
Yes...3 million expulsions, £4300 losses per household, World War III...
...you might well refer to anyone coming out with this kind of hysterical rhetoric as 'baying at the moon'.
Definitely not the dull competence we want from our leaders.
Given Leave is given a lot more credit for being truthful - the ever diminishing returns HMG can wring out of such absurd scaremongering is obvious. And yet they continue to damage themselves with the active encouragement of Number 10. This stuff is so off the charts compared to even the silliest GE campaigning.
@ThreeQuidder I simply disagree with your analysis. The idea that the future of government is going to be the same whether Remain or Leave wins is one I find wholly fanciful. If Leave win, the loonies are going to get much more power.
And trying to stop that is far more important to me than the referendum itself.
On 31 October, Papandreou announced his government's plans to hold a referendum on the acceptance of the terms of a eurozone bailout deal. The referendum was to be held in December 2011 or January 2012. However, following the insistence of EU leaders at the G20 summit in Cannes that the referendum should be on Greece's continued membership of the eurozone, and severe criticism of such a referendum by Greek Finance Minister Venizelos and within parliament, Papandreou scrapped the plan on 3 November.
On 5 November, his government only narrowly won a confidence vote in parliament and opposition leader Antonis Samaras called for immediate elections. The next day Papandreou met with opposition leaders trying to reach an agreement on the formation of an interim national unity government. However, Samaras gave in only after Papandreou agreed to step aside, allowing the EU bailout to proceed and paving the way for elections on 19 February 2012. Both the Communist Party (KKE) and the leftist SYRIZA coalition had refused Papandreou's invitation to join talks on a new unity government.
After several days of intense negotiations, the two major parties along with the Popular Orthodox Rally agreed to form a grand coalition headed by former Vice President of the European Central Bank Lucas Papademos. On 10 November, George Papandreou formally resigned as Prime Minister of Greece. The new coalition cabinet and Prime Minister Lucas Papademos were formally sworn in on 11 November 2011.
You can wheel in as many of the great and good as you like but in a world where CEOs trough salaries 150* that of their employees (hat tip Boris) all the likes of Lagarde, Carney and Obama are seen as is mill owners trying to feed propaganda to further they and their Oligarchies nests.
It's great to see that Boris has suddenly discovered the earnings gap. But it's unclear how that squares with his oft-stated belief that very rich people should be paying even less tax than they do now.
Consistency was never his long suit though was it? I seem to remember he used to talk a lot about the importance of family life and supporting marriage as well...
Yep, Boris is so eaten up with concern about this issue that he has never taken any steps as either an MP or as London mayor to do anything about it.
That would be the same Boris leading the Leave campaign who described himself eight months ago as "basically pro immigration" and calling for an illegal immigrant amnesty?
Of course the prevailing wind was different that day...
But, but, but ... Hitler
Of course, like many Leavers on here, eight months ago Boris was a fully signed up supporter og government fiscal and economic policies predicated on EU membership and large scale immigration.
“I believe that will mean net migration to this country will be in the order of tens of thousands each year, not the hundreds of thousands every year that we have seen over the last decade. Britain will always be open to the best and brightest from around the world and those fleeing persecution. But with us, our borders will be under control and immigration will be at levels our country can manage. No ifs. No buts. That’s a promise we made to the British people, and it’s a promise we are keeping.”
I wonder if Nigel will use that on ITV?
He should do - it was a foolish promise to make & Cameron deserves to have it thrown back at him.
Interesting, if I were to use you as a weather vane I'd be fearing for the PM
@ThreeQuidder I simply disagree with your analysis. The idea that the future of government is going to be the same whether Remain or Leave wins is one I find wholly fanciful.
Why? The candidates to replace Cameron will be the same - the ambitious Tory MPs. The electorate will be the same - the Tory membership. And the check on their power will be the same - the small majority and the Lords.
Given how often the Great & Good have been wrong on the ERM, Euro, 2008 crash, forecasting in general - it'd be refreshing to understand why Remainers are so keen to believe them now.
Or are they just a fig-leaf for their own position?
They are grateful that people are attempting to intellectualise their own weak position. If you ask a Remainer WHY they believe so strongly in the EU they rarely, if ever, give you a coherent answer.
Take Meeks, the self appointed sage of PB, his overriding reason for Remaining is that people like me call him names. He was undecided for ages, if the economic argument was so compelling why the hesitancy?
Cameron is throwing the kitchen sink at this. He must belief his own rhetoric. I think he is writing his own legacy, in that he now does not care as much about his own party but becoming an historical prime minister of note. He will bow out undefeated in general elections and securing EU membership. In recent times that puts him in the Blair, Wilson, Group and above Brown, Eden, Douglas -Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major.
He's throwing both of EdM's at it too.
I agree Plato . He certainly has not followed the Harold Wilson rule book in the 75 referendum. Wilson did not take the lead as Cameron has. Cameron owns the result what ever it is.
@ThreeQuidder I simply disagree with your analysis. The idea that the future of government is going to be the same whether Remain or Leave wins is one I find wholly fanciful.
Why? The candidates to replace Cameron will be the same - the ambitious Tory MPs. The electorate will be the same - the Tory membership. And the check on their power will be the same - the small majority and the Lords.
Quite - it's the most bizarre assertion. Cameron is now damaged goods - he's not the gold-plated asset he was, and was standing down in any event. I can't think of any Tory who wants Osborne - so the mantle will go to an established big name as it always would.
@ThreeQuidder If Leave win, the big question of the next few years is going to be the terms of disengagement from the EU. That inevitably is going to need to be led by those who can credibly speak for those who voted for that outcome. It is fanciful to imagine that those who voted for Leave are not going to be in the ascendant in those circumstances.
Unlike Cincinnatus, the Leave politicians are not going to return to their funny farms. The opposite - the lunatics are going to take over the asylum.
What should be most telling about the Remain campaign is that it isn't actually campaigning FOR the EU, the aims of the founders or any ideal of a modern superstate in Europe.
That makes remain as deceitful a campaign as the main Leave campaign with their daft £350m claim .
I suppose we couldn’t have an unfortunate juxtaposition of events; a Leave vote and 25 or so Tories being at least temporarily unseated by the Electoral Commission.
Given how often the Great & Good have been wrong on the ERM, Euro, 2008 crash, forecasting in general - it'd be refreshing to understand why Remainers are so keen to believe them now.
Or are they just a fig-leaf for their own position?
They are grateful that people are attempting to intellectualise their own weak position. If you ask a Remainer WHY they believe so strongly in the EU they rarely, if ever, give you a coherent answer.
Take Meeks, the self appointed sage of PB, his overriding reason for Remaining is that people like me call him names. He was undecided for ages, if the economic argument was so compelling why the hesitancy?
I'm still chuckling over Mossad agents and vapid bilge hissy-fit.
If Leave do get it then one thing will indeed be truly different for the first time in ages - the plebs will have landed a meaningful blow on the establishment. We keep hearing about how pissed off voters are with the elites and the status quo everywhere, and the rise of AfD, Trump, Le Pen, UKIP etc. But these have not actually gained power anywhere or yet had a concrete result to crow about. The establishment and the status quo still win every time. A Leave vote would change that. It would shake the rotten and complacent EU to its core and prompt all sorts of ructions within. I think it would also somehow be a boon for Trump. Democracy is rotten unless it throws out the occasional two fingers to the slippery greased piglets who run our lives.
It is more important to Meeks to avoid letting some Tories he dislikes have a temporary ascendence than the future of our freedom. It is much more important to me to see the machine brought low by the ordinary people. I'm feeding off the fear these establishment shitbags emanate with their every breath.
Boris Johnson's Hitler analogy gains little newspaper backing National press reaction to his hyperbolic Nazi argument is largely hostile, and even the Brexit titles offer him only muted support
Cameron is throwing the kitchen sink at this. He must belief his own rhetoric. I think he is writing his own legacy, in that he now does not care as much about his own party but becoming an historical prime minister of note. He will bow out undefeated in general elections and securing EU membership. In recent times that puts him in the Blair, Wilson, Group and above Brown, Eden, Douglas -Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major.
He's throwing both of EdM's at it too.
I agree Plato . He certainly has not followed the Harold Wilson rule book in the 75 referendum. Wilson did not take the lead as Cameron has. Cameron owns the result what ever it is.
It's an interesting chart. Does it mean that those with the longest experience of the EU are the ones most likely to vote Leave? Generally - and I realise this is a huge generalisation - the older you get the more risk-averse you are and, whatever else can be said for it, leaving the EU involves risk.
Another way of looking at it is.....the future is voting for REMAIN, the past for LEAVE......(or youthful folly & wisdom...depending on your point of view...)
@ThreeQuidder I simply disagree with your analysis. The idea that the future of government is going to be the same whether Remain or Leave wins is one I find wholly fanciful. If Leave win, the loonies are going to get much more power.
And trying to stop that is far more important to me than the referendum itself.
The electorate will be the same though, as will the date of the next election.
Whoever does the negotiating will be conscious of both those things.
If Leave do get it then one thing will indeed be truly different for the first time in ages - the plebs will have landed a meaningful blow on the establishment. We keep hearing about how pissed off voters are with the elites and the status quo everywhere, and the rise of AfD, Trump, Le Pen, UKIP etc. But these have not actually gained power anywhere or yet had a concrete result to crow about. The establishment and the status quo still win every time. A Leave vote would change that. It would shake the rotten and complacent EU to its core and prompt all sorts of ructions within. I think it would also somehow be a boon for Trump. Democracy is rotten unless it throws out the occasional two fingers to the slippery greased piglets who run our lives.
It is more important to Meeks to avoid letting some Tories he dislikes have a temporary ascendence than the future of our freedom. It is much more important to me to see the machine brought low by the ordinary people. I'm feeding off the fear these establishment shitbags emanate with their every breath.
Yep, those plucky billionaires, Tory cabinet ministers, and newspaper editors and owners sticking two fingers up at the Establishment. It's great to see.
If Leave do get it then one thing will indeed be truly different for the first time in ages - the plebs will have landed a meaningful blow on the establishment. We keep hearing about how pissed off voters are with the elites and the status quo everywhere, and the rise of AfD, Trump, Le Pen, UKIP etc. But these have not actually gained power anywhere or yet had a concrete result to crow about. The establishment and the status quo still win every time. A Leave vote would change that. It would shake the rotten and complacent EU to its core and prompt all sorts of ructions within. I think it would also somehow be a boon for Trump. Democracy is rotten unless it throws out the occasional two fingers to the slippery greased piglets who run our lives.
It is more important to Meeks to avoid letting some Tories he dislikes have a temporary ascendence than the future of our freedom. It is much more important to me to see the machine brought low by the ordinary people. I'm feeding off the fear these establishment shitbags emanate with their every breath.
Well said Patrick, the EU itself is actually becoming a side issue here, its about something even bigger. Its about telling the BBC, Thornberry, Meeks, Clegg, Cameron, Blair etc etc who specialise in sneering control freakery, that actually, you don't know best.
Natalie Bennett gives up. Search for a new Green Leader starts, perhaps soundings need to be taken to work out if they can find someone other than Caroline Lucas whom the bookmakers, punters and public have heard about.
It's an interesting chart. Does it mean that those with the longest experience of the EU are the ones most likely to vote Leave? Generally - and I realise this is a huge generalisation - the older you get the more risk-averse you are and, whatever else can be said for it, leaving the EU involves risk.
Its one of the conundrums of the referendum - the older/risk averse in favour of change, the younger/adventurous in favour of the status quo.
How this will all shake out, goodness knows.....
I reckon a good 'Pensions scare Warning if Brexit' may be coming to us soon....that and moral blackmail 'think of your grand kids'.....
It's an interesting chart. Does it mean that those with the longest experience of the EU are the ones most likely to vote Leave? Generally - and I realise this is a huge generalisation - the older you get the more risk-averse you are and, whatever else can be said for it, leaving the EU involves risk.
Staying in the EU involves risks. For the older generation, it involves the risk of Germany again throwing its weight around. Running riot through EU democracy. Such as opening up the EU's collective borders whenever it says so, for example...
Another way of looking at it is.....the future is voting for REMAIN, the past for LEAVE......(or youthful folly & wisdom...depending on your point of view...)
Is it simply that, on average, people become more right-wing as they age and Leave is associated with the right in this country?
If Leave were predominantly a left-wing cause (which is possible) would the age profile be reversed?
@ThreeQuidder Those people will get more influence by being part of the cabal that will take over the direction of this government. It's not complicated.
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.
What has proved true is that your illogical decision has caused you to be increasingly swivel-eyed, both above and below the line.
A "cabal"? "Taking over the direction of the government"? Jesus wept.
If Brexit wins Boris et al will surely be taking the lead in the negotiations and therefore the future direction of the country. To suggest otherwise is nonsense and if anyone tried to do otherwise there would rightly be howls of anger from the Leavers.
If Leave win it has to be their show from then on. The negotiations should be a hoot given that the Leavers have insulted just about everyone they are going to be negotiating with. Having likened the EU to Hitler Boris is of course then going to negotiate a fabulous deal for us all from the EU.
Given how often the Great & Good have been wrong on the ERM, Euro, 2008 crash, forecasting in general - it'd be refreshing to understand why Remainers are so keen to believe them now.
Or are they just a fig-leaf for their own position?
I seem to remember Lords Lawson and Lamont being quite involved in the ERM fiasco; while plenty of Remainers were opposed to the UK joining the Eurozone.
What I find more puzzling is why so many Tory Leavers ever supported government fiscal and economic policies predicated on continued EU membership and high levels of EU immigration. Cabinet ministers lauded it, MPs cheered it, supporters sung its praises. How quickly things change.
@ThreeQuidder Those people will get more influence by being part of the cabal that will take over the direction of this government. It's not complicated.
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.
What has proved true is that your illogical decision has caused you to be increasingly swivel-eyed, both above and below the line.
A "cabal"? "Taking over the direction of the government"? Jesus wept.
If Brexit wins Boris et al will surely be taking the lead in the negotiations and therefore the future direction of the country. To suggest otherwise is nonsense and if anyone tried to do otherwise there would rightly be howls of anger from the Leavers.
If Leave win it has to be their show from then on. The negotiations should be a hoot given that the Leavers have insulted just about everyone they are going to be negotiating with. Having likened the EU to Hitler Boris is of course then going to negotiate a fabulous deal for us all from the EU.
Of course he (or more likely Gove) would.
There's no point crying over spilt milk. If we vote to Leave then our trading partners will have little choice but to respect that and make a deal because they'd want one too. Just as when we go into a General Election the reality is our partners will work with whoever we elect as PM and not just those they find agreeable.
It's an interesting chart. Does it mean that those with the longest experience of the EU are the ones most likely to vote Leave? Generally - and I realise this is a huge generalisation - the older you get the more risk-averse you are and, whatever else can be said for it, leaving the EU involves risk.
Staying in the EU involves risks. For the older generation, it involves the risk of Germany again throwing its weight around. Running riot through EU democracy. Such as opening up the EU's collective borders whenever it says so, for example...
Given I started out as a reluctant Remain [I wanted Cameron to get a reasonable deal], and have shifted to committed Leave - and in my 40s... I feel that chart is talking about People Like Me.
I've been hearing these words for almost 20 years. It hasn't stopped euroscepticism from growing.
Given that almost half the population supports Brexit I can only conclude that Remainers think that the half the population is mad. In which case, it's a wonder we can survive at all.
Maybe they'll take such beliefs to their grave, like Heseletine, even if the UK resoundingly rejects the EU.
@blackburn63 - I'm honoured to rank number three in that list. Nick Clegg might be a bit annoyed to have been demoted after me.
I'm afraid you've dropped to No 2 in the tipping compo now too, I've decided to include Mr Dancer's Verstappen tip as a 40-1 (Price available at time of tip) 1/2 stake "tiny sum" winner.
If Leave do get it then one thing will indeed be truly different for the first time in ages - the plebs will have landed a meaningful blow on the establishment. We keep hearing about how pissed off voters are with the elites and the status quo everywhere, and the rise of AfD, Trump, Le Pen, UKIP etc. But these have not actually gained power anywhere or yet had a concrete result to crow about. The establishment and the status quo still win every time. A Leave vote would change that. It would shake the rotten and complacent EU to its core and prompt all sorts of ructions within. I think it would also somehow be a boon for Trump. Democracy is rotten unless it throws out the occasional two fingers to the slippery greased piglets who run our lives.
It is more important to Meeks to avoid letting some Tories he dislikes have a temporary ascendence than the future of our freedom. It is much more important to me to see the machine brought low by the ordinary people. I'm feeding off the fear these establishment shitbags emanate with their every breath.
Well said Patrick, the EU itself is actually becoming a side issue here, its about something even bigger. Its about telling the BBC, Thornberry, Meeks, Clegg, Cameron, Blair etc etc who specialise in sneering control freakery, that actually, you don't know best.
I thought @chestnut's observation that ABs are more ignorant of EU funding, than CDEs was fascinating.
It's an interesting chart. Does it mean that those with the longest experience of the EU are the ones most likely to vote Leave? Generally - and I realise this is a huge generalisation - the older you get the more risk-averse you are and, whatever else can be said for it, leaving the EU involves risk.
Its one of the conundrums of the referendum - the older/risk averse in favour of change, the younger/adventurous in favour of the status quo.
How this will all shake out, goodness knows.....
I reckon a good 'Pensions scare Warning if Brexit' may be coming to us soon....that and moral blackmail 'think of your grand kids'.....
It could be that the younger generation haven't had their optimism ground out of them - yet and feel that there's a chance to 'change the EU from the inside'
Mr. Royale, or, as Alan Johnson helpfully put it, 'extremist'. A word usually associated with terrorists.
Still, I am having second thoughts. I'm not fond of the EU, but don't want to be £43,000 a year worse off. I'd need to take out a loan for that. And the thought of global war and the extinction of the human race if Leave wins is worrying.
@ThreeQuidder If Leave win, the big question of the next few years is going to be the terms of disengagement from the EU. That inevitably is going to need to be led by those who can credibly speak for those who voted for that outcome. It is fanciful to imagine that those who voted for Leave are not going to be in the ascendant in those circumstances.
Unlike Cincinnatus, the Leave politicians are not going to return to their funny farms. The opposite - the lunatics are going to take over the asylum.
An oddly gurning Osbrown maxing out the national credit card. David Cameron spinning for his life and threatening war. Michael Fallon wanting to bomb everywhere with our three planes. 27 year olds running the treasury. Newsflash: the lunatics are already here. The only thing these people have going for them is the patina of power and influence.
You can wheel in as many of the great and good as you like but in a world where CEOs trough salaries 150* that of their employees (hat tip Boris) all the likes of Lagarde, Carney and Obama are seen as is mill owners trying to feed propaganda to further they and their Oligarchies nests.
It's great to see that Boris has suddenly discovered the earnings gap. But it's unclear how that squares with his oft-stated belief that very rich people should be paying even less tax than they do now.
Consistency was never his long suit though was it? I seem to remember he used to talk a lot about the importance of family life and supporting marriage as well...
Yep, Boris is so eaten up with concern about this issue that he has never taken any steps as either an MP or as London mayor to do anything about it.
That would be the same Boris leading the Leave campaign who described himself eight months ago as "basically pro immigration" and calling for an illegal immigrant amnesty?
Of course the prevailing wind was different that day...
But, but, but ... Hitler
Of course, like many Leavers on here, eight months ago Boris was a fully signed up supporter og government fiscal and economic policies predicated on EU membership and large scale immigration.
Excuse me?
Considering the preponderance of Tories and Kippers on this board, where exactly are these Leavers who supported large scale immigration?
Remember this?
“I believe that will mean net migration to this country will be in the order of tens of thousands each year, not the hundreds of thousands every year that we have seen over the last decade. Britain will always be open to the best and brightest from around the world and those fleeing persecution. But with us, our borders will be under control and immigration will be at levels our country can manage. No ifs. No buts. That’s a promise we made to the British people, and it’s a promise we are keeping.”
All those who supported Osborne's plans to eliminate the deficit by 2020/1 were supporting a plan reliant on high-levels of continued immigration from the EU. If they don't now support his plan, what are they proposing? Moving the target, raising taxes, more cuts in public spending, or what?
It's an interesting chart. Does it mean that those with the longest experience of the EU are the ones most likely to vote Leave? Generally - and I realise this is a huge generalisation - the older you get the more risk-averse you are and, whatever else can be said for it, leaving the EU involves risk.
I have a theory on this.
The younger you are (over eighteen), the more mobile you are. You move to university, move to your first job, move to another country, move in with your partner somewhere mutually acceptable, etc.
As you get older, you settle down, your kids go to a limited number of nearby schools (hence my comment about over eighteen) and you get to know an increasing number of people in social clubs, your neighbourhood and parish.
Then, as you mature, you see your children and relatives' children being forced out of social housing by more deserving incomers, being forced to move into the periphery by increasing house prices and the neighbourhood changing because of this.
So the older you are, the more roots you've put down, the more you dislike rapid change because the option to move is no longer open to you. Notice a certain poster emphasis on how young immigrants are.
To use a horticultural reference, you move from seed, to seedling, to plant.
It's an interesting chart. Does it mean that those with the longest experience of the EU are the ones most likely to vote Leave? Generally - and I realise this is a huge generalisation - the older you get the more risk-averse you are and, whatever else can be said for it, leaving the EU involves risk.
Its one of the conundrums of the referendum - the older/risk averse in favour of change, the younger/adventurous in favour of the status quo.
How this will all shake out, goodness knows.....
I reckon a good 'Pensions scare Warning if Brexit' may be coming to us soon....that and moral blackmail 'think of your grand kids'.....
Generalising wildly, of course, I think the older/risk averse tend to see leaving the EU as a way of putting the brakes on change in an environment that is already changing more rapidly then they would like. They don't see leaving the EU as a risk; they see it as a respite.
The young, on the other hand, see the EU as an opportunity to expand their horizons and feel that leaving the EU would be curtailing these opportunities. For them, leaving the EU isn't a risk at all, it's a brake on their ambition.
though the headline is misleading, because it seems to say it was a combination of scottish office and local policies, followed by thatcherism as the icing on the cake.
But fair to say that labour in scotland probably pretty much deserves the kicking it is belatedly getting
To be scrupulously fair to Labour, something I'm not naturally inclined to be, they only held overall control of Glasgow Council for slightly over half of the period between 1934-1980 when the Glasgow Effect might be said to have taken root. Of course SLab, SCons, Libs/LDs, Progressives, the feeble 50, the Scottish Office (controlled by Lab, Cons or Libs/LDs) and the Westminster government controlling national economic policy all share one basic political imperative.
I've been hearing these words for almost 20 years. It hasn't stopped euroscepticism from growing.
Given that almost half the population supports Brexit I can only conclude that Remainers think that the half the population is mad. In which case, it's a wonder we can survive at all.
Maybe they'll take such beliefs to their grave, like Heseletine, even if the UK resoundingly rejects the EU.
This is all so this... Jonathon Haidt on liberal left distain.
All those who supported Osborne's plans to eliminate the deficit by 2020/1 were supporting a plan reliant on high-levels of continued immigration from the EU. If they don't now support his plan, what are they proposing? Moving the target, raising taxes, more cuts in public spending, or what?
One thing that went under the radar was Ed Balls making a reference to "zero" budgeting in the run up to GE2015. It was an interesting thought - though I doubt many noticed it and those that did wouldn't trust Labour to deliver...
If the pet hobbies of both the left (International aid, some benefits) and the right (triple lock, nuclear weapons) were canned we could probably get there.
If Leave do get it then one thing will indeed be truly different for the first time in ages - the plebs will have landed a meaningful blow on the establishment. We keep hearing about how pissed off voters are with the elites and the status quo everywhere, and the rise of AfD, Trump, Le Pen, UKIP etc. But these have not actually gained power anywhere or yet had a concrete result to crow about. The establishment and the status quo still win every time. A Leave vote would change that. It would shake the rotten and complacent EU to its core and prompt all sorts of ructions within. I think it would also somehow be a boon for Trump. Democracy is rotten unless it throws out the occasional two fingers to the slippery greased piglets who run our lives.
It is more important to Meeks to avoid letting some Tories he dislikes have a temporary ascendence than the future of our freedom. It is much more important to me to see the machine brought low by the ordinary people. I'm feeding off the fear these establishment shitbags emanate with their every breath.
Yep, those plucky billionaires, Tory cabinet ministers, and newspaper editors and owners sticking two fingers up at the Establishment. It's great to see.
I think it will be more about the demographic of those who choose to leave, which I think will be skewed heavily to the working class as opposed to the fairly asset rich middle class who have more to lose from potential changes
@ThreeQuidder Those people will get more influence by being part of the cabal that will take over the direction of this government. It's not complicated.
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.
What has proved true is that your illogical decision has caused you to be increasingly swivel-eyed, both above and below the line.
A "cabal"? "Taking over the direction of the government"? Jesus wept.
If Brexit wins Boris et al will surely be taking the lead in the negotiations and therefore the future direction of the country. To suggest otherwise is nonsense and if anyone tried to do otherwise there would rightly be howls of anger from the Leavers.
If Leave win it has to be their show from then on. The negotiations should be a hoot given that the Leavers have insulted just about everyone they are going to be negotiating with. Having likened the EU to Hitler Boris is of course then going to negotiate a fabulous deal for us all from the EU.
Of course he (or more likely Gove) would.
There's no point crying over spilt milk. If we vote to Leave then our trading partners will have little choice but to respect that and make a deal because they'd want one too. Just as when we go into a General Election the reality is our partners will work with whoever we elect as PM and not just those they find agreeable.
I think it's highly likely that our EU partners will be as difficult as possible if we Brexit partly because they will be pissed off at the abuse from Leavers, pissed off at the disruption caused but also to deter others who may consider following suit. Those banking on a quick and easy ride are taking a huge risk.
I've been hearing these words for almost 20 years. It hasn't stopped euroscepticism from growing.
Given that almost half the population supports Brexit I can only conclude that Remainers think that the half the population is mad. In which case, it's a wonder we can survive at all.
Maybe they'll take such beliefs to their grave, like Heseletine, even if the UK resoundingly rejects the EU.
Mr. Observer, you must surely agree that a substantial majority of the Establishment is for Remain?
[It doesn't matter overly much, what counts is the arguments on either side...].
I see the Establishment dominating both sides of the argument, with ordinary people seemingly split half and half - or at least those ordinary people taking any intetest.
Mr. Pulpstar, to be honest, I wouldn't have tipped it (probably) at 41, but I'm glad you got on it.
Monaco could be interesting. Might be more value looking at the back rather than the front (Sainz had a good race in Spain but got sod all airtime, for obvious reasons).
Mr. Royale, or, as Alan Johnson helpfully put it, 'extremist'. A word usually associated with terrorists.
Still, I am having second thoughts. I'm not fond of the EU, but don't want to be £43,000 a year worse off. I'd need to take out a loan for that. And the thought of global war and the extinction of the human race if Leave wins is worrying.
Apparently cat breeds from non-trade deal nations will be put down too. Vote Remain or Tiddles gets it.
You can wheel in as many of the great and good as you like but in a world where CEOs trough salaries 150* that of their employees (hat tip Boris) all the likes of Lagarde, Carney and Obama are seen as is mill owners trying to feed propaganda to further they and their Oligarchies nests.
It's great to see that Boris has suddenly discovered the earnings gap. But it's unclear how that squares with his oft-stated belief that very rich people should be paying even less tax than they do now.
Consistency was never his long suit though was it? I seem to remember he used to talk a lot about the importance of family life and supporting marriage as well...
Yep, Boris is so eaten up with concern about this issue that he has never taken any steps as either an MP or as London mayor to do anything about it.
But, but, but ... Hitler
Of course, like many Leavers on here, eight months ago Boris was a fully signed up supporter og government fiscal and economic policies predicated on EU membership and large scale immigration.
Excuse me?
Considering the preponderance of Tories and Kippers on this board, where exactly are these Leavers who supported large scale immigration?
Remember this?
“I believe that will mean net migration to this country will be in the order of tens of thousands each year, not the hundreds of thousands every year that we have seen over the last decade. Britain will always be open to the best and brightest from around the world and those fleeing persecution. But with us, our borders will be under control and immigration will be at levels our country can manage. No ifs. No buts. That’s a promise we made to the British people, and it’s a promise we are keeping.”
All those who supported Osborne's plans to eliminate the deficit by 2020/1 were supporting a plan reliant on high-levels of continued immigration from the EU. If they don't now support his plan, what are they proposing? Moving the target, raising taxes, more cuts in public spending, or what?
Really? I don't remember that being that being pointed out. In fact, I actually quoted David Cameron saying that he would restrict immigration, but have blithely ignored that in preference to your made-up "facts".
And what exactly is wrong with cutting back on Labour's ludicrous overspending?
Mr. Pulpstar, to be honest, I wouldn't have tipped it (probably) at 41, but I'm glad you got on it.
Monaco could be interesting. Might be more value looking at the back rather than the front (Sainz had a good race in Spain but got sod all airtime, for obvious reasons).
I didn't get on it - I'm merely trying to keep a record of all tips generated from the site and related blogs
@ThreeQuidder Those people will get more influence by being part of the cabal that will take over the direction of this government. It's not complicated.
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.
What has proved true is that your illogical decision has caused you to be increasingly swivel-eyed, both above and below the line.
A "cabal"? "Taking over the direction of the government"? Jesus wept.
If Brexit wins Boris et al will surely be taking the lead in the negotiations and therefore the future direction of the country. To suggest otherwise is nonsense and if anyone tried to do otherwise there would rightly be howls of anger from the Leavers.
If Leave win it has to be their show from then on. The negotiations should be a hoot given that the Leavers have insulted just about everyone they are going to be negotiating with. Having likened the EU to Hitler Boris is of course then going to negotiate a fabulous deal for us all from the EU.
Of course he (or more likely Gove) would.
There's no point crying over spilt milk. If we vote to Leave then our trading partners will have little choice but to respect that and make a deal because they'd want one too. Just as when we go into a General Election the reality is our partners will work with whoever we elect as PM and not just those they find agreeable.
Indeed, everyone in the know (including the REMAIN side's leaders) is well aware that there will be a rapid deal between the UK and the EU after Brexit. It will preserve tariff-free trade and some aspects of free movement - but not all.
We could have cut a deal like this any time in the last twenty-five years. It's only the reluctance of our own political and bureaucratic establishment to the will of the people - related to their desire to keep trying to pull the voters toward EU political integration (with the goodies that means for them) - that has prevented this.
Mr. Pulpstar, to be honest, I wouldn't have tipped it (probably) at 41, but I'm glad you got on it.
Monaco could be interesting. Might be more value looking at the back rather than the front (Sainz had a good race in Spain but got sod all airtime, for obvious reasons).
Please, let us know any feelings from the vapours you get - you clearly know your stuff !
If Leave do get it then one thing will indeed be truly different for the first time in ages - the plebs will have landed a meaningful blow on the establishment. We keep hearing about how pissed off voters are with the elites and the status quo everywhere, and the rise of AfD, Trump, Le Pen, UKIP etc. But these have not actually gained power anywhere or yet had a concrete result to crow about. The establishment and the status quo still win every time. A Leave vote would change that. It would shake the rotten and complacent EU to its core and prompt all sorts of ructions within. I think it would also somehow be a boon for Trump. Democracy is rotten unless it throws out the occasional two fingers to the slippery greased piglets who run our lives.
It is more important to Meeks to avoid letting some Tories he dislikes have a temporary ascendence than the future of our freedom. It is much more important to me to see the machine brought low by the ordinary people. I'm feeding off the fear these establishment shitbags emanate with their every breath.
Yep, those plucky billionaires, Tory cabinet ministers, and newspaper editors and owners sticking two fingers up at the Establishment. It's great to see.
I think it will be more about the demographic of those who choose to leave, which I think will be skewed heavily to the working class as opposed to the fairly asset rich middle class who have more to lose from potential changes
Cameron has belatedly realised this hence pleading with Mirror readers.
I've been hearing these words for almost 20 years. It hasn't stopped euroscepticism from growing.
Given that almost half the population supports Brexit I can only conclude that Remainers think that the half the population is mad. In which case, it's a wonder we can survive at all.
Maybe they'll take such beliefs to their grave, like Heseletine, even if the UK resoundingly rejects the EU.
I can understand support for Brexit, what I find harder to comprehend is the almost religious fervour of SOME leavers. Its like the quest for the holy grail and, to me at least, its not a vote winner.
Given how often the Great & Good have been wrong on the ERM, Euro, 2008 crash, forecasting in general - it'd be refreshing to understand why Remainers are so keen to believe them now.
Or are they just a fig-leaf for their own position?
I seem to remember Lords Lawson and Lamont being quite involved in the ERM fiasco; while plenty of Remainers were opposed to the UK joining the Eurozone.
What I find more puzzling is why so many Tory Leavers ever supported government fiscal and economic policies predicated on continued EU membership and high levels of EU immigration. Cabinet ministers lauded it, MPs cheered it, supporters sung its praises. How quickly things change.
Lawson and Lamont were the biggest proponents of the ERM. Gordon Brown made sure Britain never entered the Eurozone by creating the 5 tests which could never be achieved.
I've been hearing these words for almost 20 years. It hasn't stopped euroscepticism from growing.
Given that almost half the population supports Brexit I can only conclude that Remainers think that the half the population is mad. In which case, it's a wonder we can survive at all.
Maybe they'll take such beliefs to their grave, like Heseletine, even if the UK resoundingly rejects the EU.
You forgot moon-howler.
And xenophobe, waycist, vulgar... I must add - Jeremy Kyle is a shoutfest today. It really should be included in sentencing options for the insufferably smug.
Mr. Pulpstar, ha, it was just lucky to notice the driver change as it happened, and get on the bet. Still relied on Mercedes having a double DNF.
Only the winner's market up on Betfair. Verstappen's down to 9 (as are Vettel and Ricciardo). Too short. Sainz is 7th favourite (NB *not* backing him). That's unfortunate, as I was thinking of checking his points odds, but those will probably be far too short.
Going to post an article at the year end with your findings?
I've been hearing these words for almost 20 years. It hasn't stopped euroscepticism from growing.
Given that almost half the population supports Brexit I can only conclude that Remainers think that the half the population is mad. In which case, it's a wonder we can survive at all.
Maybe they'll take such beliefs to their grave, like Heseletine, even if the UK resoundingly rejects the EU.
I can understand support for Brexit, what I find harder to comprehend is the almost religious fervour of SOME leavers. Its like the quest for the holy grail and, to me at least, its not a vote winner.
I think it will be more about the demographic of those who choose to leave, which I think will be skewed heavily to the working class as opposed to the fairly asset rich middle class who have more to lose from potential changes
Apart from those of us who bought gold. I have almost zero faith in politicians and central bankers and bought quite a bit of gold when I left my previous employer last summer. It's done excellently over the last 12 months and looks set to explode if we get another recession or the Pound takes a pummelling.
Comments
I tipped the Verstappen bet here, after a bit of uming and ahing. Was only available for a short time, maybe quarter of an hour.
Mr. HYUFD, well, that adds to my point, but I was actually referring to the EU army.
Wow.
I knew some Brexiteers were barking, but that's seems excessive
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.
http://novinite.com/articles/174486/Bulgaria,+Romania+'Could+Veto+EU-Canada+Free+Trade+Deal'
First you say the claims aren't in the video.
Then you say they're in the Treaty of Lisbon, but can't quote the article.
Then its pointed out the Treaty of Lisbon directly contradicts the claims.
Now it's 'bad things will happen' bluster bluster mutter mutter fudge....
In a word....piffle
Heck, even the video says so......
A "cabal"? "Taking over the direction of the government"? Jesus wept.
Or are they just a fig-leaf for their own position?
He must belief his own rhetoric.
I think he is writing his own legacy, in that he now does not care as much about his own party but becoming an historical prime minister of note.
He will bow out undefeated in general elections and securing EU membership.
In recent times that puts him in the Blair, Wilson, Group and above Brown, Eden, Douglas -Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major.
If David Cameron does cling to office, he will be surrounded, perforce, by prominent Leavers, who will then dictate central aspects of government policy on what will then become the all-consuming topic of the next few years.
Either way we can look forward to a government dominated by headbangers who cheerfully liken the EU to a Fourth Reich.
Liam
Iain
Michael
Boris
• somebody you've never heard of;
• someone who used to be somebody you've never heard of;
sign VoteLeave letter.
@PeterMannionMP: ..and all signatories 'in a personal capacity' because many companies they work do not back #Leave. #StrongerIn
...you might well refer to anyone coming out with this kind of hysterical rhetoric as 'baying at the moon'.
Definitely not the dull competence we want from our leaders.
Clinton 48 .. Sanders 33 - Typical Turnout Model
Clinton 45 .. Sanders 38 - High Turnout Model
http://res.cloudinary.com/bdy4ger4/image/upload/v1463018600/OPBFoxOregonDemocraticPrimaryTypicalTurnoutModel_vwg245.pdf
This referendum will settle it - either we Leave or we Remain. What we won't do is have another referendum any time soon, probably not in my lifetime unless the pro-EUers grow a pair and actually openly advocate for federalism. Untrue, as I have just demonstrated.
My WTF needs recalibrating.
And trying to stop that is far more important to me than the referendum itself.
Take Meeks, the self appointed sage of PB, his overriding reason for Remaining is that people like me call him names. He was undecided for ages, if the economic argument was so compelling why the hesitancy?
Peak age for the Remainers is seven.
He certainly has not followed the Harold Wilson rule book in the 75 referendum.
Wilson did not take the lead as Cameron has.
Cameron owns the result what ever it is.
Unlike Cincinnatus, the Leave politicians are not going to return to their funny farms. The opposite - the lunatics are going to take over the asylum.
That makes remain as deceitful a campaign as the main Leave campaign with their daft £350m claim .
That chart should terrify the Remainers.
I woz fleeced.
It is more important to Meeks to avoid letting some Tories he dislikes have a temporary ascendence than the future of our freedom. It is much more important to me to see the machine brought low by the ordinary people. I'm feeding off the fear these establishment shitbags emanate with their every breath.
What the Papers say:
Boris Johnson's Hitler analogy gains little newspaper backing
National press reaction to his hyperbolic Nazi argument is largely hostile, and even the Brexit titles offer him only muted support
http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2016/may/16/boris-johnsons-hitler-analogy-gains-little-newspaper-backing
Whoever does the negotiating will be conscious of both those things.
They will still end up having to answer to us.
"plebs will have landed a meaningful blow on the establishment."
Indeed. The Weasles and the Stoats from the Wildwood will be befouling Toad Towers and spreading their plebeian views all over the river bank.
How this will all shake out, goodness knows.....
I reckon a good 'Pensions scare Warning if Brexit' may be coming to us soon....that and moral blackmail 'think of your grand kids'.....
[It doesn't matter overly much, what counts is the arguments on either side...].
If Leave were predominantly a left-wing cause (which is possible) would the age profile be reversed?
If Leave win it has to be their show from then on. The negotiations should be a hoot given that the Leavers have insulted just about everyone they are going to be negotiating with. Having likened the EU to Hitler Boris is of course then going to negotiate a fabulous deal for us all from the EU.
"Out-of-date" just doesn't quite cut it.
What I find more puzzling is why so many Tory Leavers ever supported government fiscal and economic policies predicated on continued EU membership and high levels of EU immigration. Cabinet ministers lauded it, MPs cheered it, supporters sung its praises. How quickly things change.
There's no point crying over spilt milk. If we vote to Leave then our trading partners will have little choice but to respect that and make a deal because they'd want one too. Just as when we go into a General Election the reality is our partners will work with whoever we elect as PM and not just those they find agreeable.
I've been hearing these words for almost 20 years. It hasn't stopped euroscepticism from growing.
Given that almost half the population supports Brexit I can only conclude that Remainers think that the half the population is mad. In which case, it's a wonder we can survive at all.
Maybe they'll take such beliefs to their grave, like Heseletine, even if the UK resoundingly rejects the EU.
Still, I am having second thoughts. I'm not fond of the EU, but don't want to be £43,000 a year worse off. I'd need to take out a loan for that. And the thought of global war and the extinction of the human race if Leave wins is worrying.
The younger you are (over eighteen), the more mobile you are. You move to university, move to your first job, move to another country, move in with your partner somewhere mutually acceptable, etc.
As you get older, you settle down, your kids go to a limited number of nearby schools (hence my comment about over eighteen) and you get to know an increasing number of people in social clubs, your neighbourhood and parish.
Then, as you mature, you see your children and relatives' children being forced out of social housing by more deserving incomers, being forced to move into the periphery by increasing house prices and the neighbourhood changing because of this.
So the older you are, the more roots you've put down, the more you dislike rapid change because the option to move is no longer open to you. Notice a certain poster emphasis on how young immigrants are.
To use a horticultural reference, you move from seed, to seedling, to plant.
The young, on the other hand, see the EU as an opportunity to expand their horizons and feel that leaving the EU would be curtailing these opportunities. For them, leaving the EU isn't a risk at all, it's a brake on their ambition.
https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind?language=en
It was an interesting thought - though I doubt many noticed it and those that did wouldn't trust Labour to deliver...
If the pet hobbies of both the left (International aid, some benefits) and the right (triple lock, nuclear weapons) were canned we could probably get there.
Monaco could be interesting. Might be more value looking at the back rather than the front (Sainz had a good race in Spain but got sod all airtime, for obvious reasons).
And what exactly is wrong with cutting back on Labour's ludicrous overspending?
I think its only fair you take some credit for it
We could have cut a deal like this any time in the last twenty-five years. It's only the reluctance of our own political and bureaucratic establishment to the will of the people - related to their desire to keep trying to pull the voters toward EU political integration (with the goodies that means for them) - that has prevented this.
Only the winner's market up on Betfair. Verstappen's down to 9 (as are Vettel and Ricciardo). Too short. Sainz is 7th favourite (NB *not* backing him). That's unfortunate, as I was thinking of checking his points odds, but those will probably be far too short.
Going to post an article at the year end with your findings?