Rafael Behr @rafaelbehr Labour's poster "elections are about taking sides" is wrong in a very revealing way. Most people plump for least worst option on ballot
It takes a v insular, tribal view of politics to presume that people will rally to the party that says: "Be with us or you're one of them
.....Which Is a very deep-rooted arrogance in Labour about its entitlement to be the good guys
..
It's the Left's insufferable belief in its own moral superiority ....... even as it crawls round in the gutter.
Did you miss Michael Howard's 'Are you thinking what we're thinking' campaign?
Nope, didn't miss Labour's Shylock posters either...
I quite like the cut of Margaret Hodge's gib, but she does seem to have a bit of baggage, and I just can't see her beating Corbyn, or the 'Corbyn continuity' candidate.
Nor can I really see any of the other prominent moderates doing so.
As chair of the Public Accounts Select Committee Margaret Hodge was constantly grandstanding because of her own ignorance and lack of forensic capabability.
As a result she generated more heat than light about public spending.
Whilst also attempting to conceal the very unusual tax arrangements her family has with regards to their businesses
She is a grade A Labour hypocrite - she should go far
Are they saying he's anti semitic too? As I just said to Floater this quickly gets out of hand! Read what he's accused of doing. I'd decided to stop posting on this subject-I don't even like Corbyn's Labour Party-but I felt they were being treated unfairly.
Then I read Guido's latest on Paul Flynn.......
.....I don't know him or anything about him. But he wrote to a Jewish constituent saying he's been in the Party for 30 years and he had never seen any anti semitism (why would he?) He sounded crushed. The constituent unkindly sent the letter to Guido who returned the favour by doing a character assasination on Flynn.
That's where this thing has led and why people have to speak up.
I've never been in the Labour Party but I am aware of an undercurrent of antisemitism even if it has been brought to my attention recently. If Mr Flynn really hasn't seen any in 30 years then he has been looking the other way.
I'll make a clumsy attempt at defending him. I think he's in N Wales, I doubt anti semitism is ever mentioned there in any context, it just won't exist amongst ordinary Welsh people.
So the Welsh can't be antisemitic? Really?
That is a pretty clumsy attempt at defending him!
Clumsy or not I believe the Welsh aren't anti-semitic. The majority of the electorate will be looking at all of this very puzzled.
So Paul Flynn is saying that someone should be disbarred from doing a job solely because of their religion?
Aren't there laws against that?!
Reading all that seems he needs to "clarify" pretty quickly what he means. Does he mean that being jewish and being British are in some way not compatible?
Rafael Behr @rafaelbehr Labour's poster "elections are about taking sides" is wrong in a very revealing way. Most people plump for least worst option on ballot
It takes a v insular, tribal view of politics to presume that people will rally to the party that says: "Be with us or you're one of them
.....Which Is a very deep-rooted arrogance in Labour about its entitlement to be the good guys
..
It's the Left's insufferable belief in its own moral superiority ....... even as it crawls round in the gutter.
Did you miss Michael Howard's 'Are you thinking what we're thinking' campaign?
No. And I didn't vote for him. Your point being?
I didn't miss either Labour's attempts to make something of Howard's and Letwin's Jewishness in a pretty unpleasant dog-whistle campaign - quite some years ago. For that party to attack Goldsmith now is rich, given its own sordid history of dog whistling. See, for instance, Livingstone the last time he stood for Mayor.
My point being that we were comparing bad political posters weren't we?
Are they saying he's anti semitic too? As I just said to Floater this quickly gets out of hand! Read what he's accused of doing. I'd decided to stop posting on this subject-I don't even like Corbyn's Labour Party-but I felt they were being treated unfairly.
Then I read Guido's latest on Paul Flynn.......
.....I don't know him or anything about him. But he wrote to a Jewish constituent saying he's been in the Party for 30 years and he had never seen any anti semitism (why would he?) He sounded crushed. The constituent unkindly sent the letter to Guido who returned the favour by doing a character assasination on Flynn.
That's where this thing has led and why people have to speak up.
I've never been in the Labour Party but I am aware of an undercurrent of antisemitism even if it has been brought to my attention recently. If Mr Flynn really hasn't seen any in 30 years then he has been looking the other way.
I'll make a clumsy attempt at defending him. I think he's in N Wales, I doubt anti semitism is ever mentioned there in any context, it just won't exist amongst ordinary Welsh people.
So the Welsh can't be antisemitic? Really?
That is a pretty clumsy attempt at defending him!
Clumsy or not I believe the Welsh aren't anti-semitic. The majority of the electorate will be looking at all of this very puzzled.
On a factual note Wales' Islamic population at 2011 was 1.5% (about 45K - of which I would guess 30-50% is in Cardiff), Hindus and Buddhists are 0.3% each and Jews 0.1% or just over 2K again a large proportion of which I would guess are in Cardiff.
Are they saying he's anti semitic too? As I just said to Floater this quickly gets out of hand! Read what he's accused of doing. I'd decided to stop posting on this subject-I don't even like Corbyn's Labour Party-but I felt they were being treated unfairly.
Then I read Guido's latest on Paul Flynn.......
.....I don't know him or anything about him. But he wrote to a Jewish constituent saying he's been in the Party for 30 years and he had never seen any anti semitism (why would he?) He sounded crushed. The constituent unkindly sent the letter to Guido who returned the favour by doing a character assasination on Flynn.
That's where this thing has led and why people have to speak up.
I've never been in the Labour Party but I am aware of an undercurrent of antisemitism even if it has been brought to my attention recently. If Mr Flynn really hasn't seen any in 30 years then he has been looking the other way.
I'll make a clumsy attempt at defending him. I think he's in N Wales, I doubt anti semitism is ever mentioned there in any context, it just won't exist amongst ordinary Welsh people.
So the Welsh can't be antisemitic? Really?
That is a pretty clumsy attempt at defending him!
Clumsy or not I believe the Welsh aren't anti-semitic. The majority of the electorate will be looking at all of this very puzzled.
It'll be talk about augmenting capabilities, co-operation and so forth. But there'll still be the drift towards centralisation as sovereignty ebbs away.
For European countries (including the UK) to augment their capabilities would be a very good thing given current capabilities and threats, irrespective of the EU.
The umbrella protection from the USA is going to go and when the decision is made it will be rapid..
Yes. That is one reason that has pushed me towards a European answer. What does the US get out of NATO?
So is that what you are waiting for David?
No. As I mentioned in my 11.06 post, armed forces are a defining feature of a state. Unless the will is there, among both public an politicians, to build that state then it shouldn't be attempted. It will fail for one reason or another, but probably to do with inadequate or contradictory control.
SimonStClare suggested that "member states [would be] required to beef up their military capability where necessary and introduce legislation for minimum military budget expenditure" but even that would would be too much of a fudge. In reality, it'd need to be the EU itself which set and funded the budget - and that would have many constitutional implications.
But it comes back to the public. It would be stupid to try to build new European structures when there's so little confidence in existing ones. best to sort that out first.
@cyclefree. You gave a very good reply to my post last night.
Seeing the jubilation at Leicester today, I have often thought sport is a much better way to settle local and national differences and a great way to proudly assert our identity.
Are they saying he's anti semitic too? As I just said to Floater this quickly gets out of hand! Read what he's accused of doing. I'd decided to stop posting on this subject-I don't even like Corbyn's Labour Party-but I felt they were being treated unfairly.
Then I read Guido's latest on Paul Flynn.......
.....I don't know him or anything about him. But he wrote to a Jewish constituent saying he's been in the Party for 30 years and he had never seen any anti semitism (why would he?) He sounded crushed. The constituent unkindly sent the letter to Guido who returned the favour by doing a character assasination on Flynn.
That's where this thing has led and why people have to speak up.
The criticism there is two-fold: first it is not accurate. If only a fraction of what has been said about Jews in the last few days had been said about Muslims we'd have heard wails of Islamophobia up and down the land. Second, people have been wary of criticising Muslims precisely because of the concern of violent reaction from some in that community.
Do you really need reminding, Roger, that people have been killed for saying something about Muslims or Islam that some Muslim somewhere didn't like?
So what he says is factually inaccurate.
Finally, he implies that there is some great Jewish lobby behind all the complaints orchestrating this. That - if not anti-Semitic in itself - is perilously close to some well-worn anti-Semitic tropes.
The people now arguing most strongly for the right to offend Jews are those who have shouted the loudest about not offending other groups. Well, if offence is to be the measure then all groups are entitled to take offence, Jews included. Or we could be a bit more grown up and accept that we are entitled to say things that others don't like and that this applies to all, including Muslims - usually the quickest to play the "I'm offended" card.
It's the double standards which grate.
I'm not sure anyone is arguing for the right to offend Jews. Most seem to be arguing that people are confusing 'Israel' with 'Jews' which I think a large minority of British Jews would find offensive. I AM arguing for the right to offend. Jews and Muslims. I found the 'I am Charlie' invigorating though I now realize it could never withstand a Daily Mail firestorm.
(I must say though I did like your post. It was much more thoughtful than many of the lurid ones that this subject seems to attract)
A sure sign of a slimy professional power hungry politician is switching parties - normal people don't go from blue to red when offended by a particular event.
Are they saying he's anti semitic too? As I just said to Floater this quickly gets out of hand! Read what he's accused of doing. I'd decided to stop posting on this subject-I don't even like Corbyn's Labour Party-but I felt they were being treated unfairly.
Then I read Guido's latest on Paul Flynn.......
.....I don't know him or anything about him. But he wrote to a Jewish constituent saying he's been in the Party for 30 years and he had never seen any anti semitism (why would he?) He sounded crushed. The constituent unkindly sent the letter to Guido who returned the favour by doing a character assasination on Flynn.
That's where this thing has led and why people have to speak up.
I've never been in the Labour Party but I am aware of an undercurrent of antisemitism even if it has been brought to my attention recently. If Mr Flynn really hasn't seen any in 30 years then he has been looking the other way.
I'll make a clumsy attempt at defending him. I think he's in N Wales, I doubt anti semitism is ever mentioned there in any context, it just won't exist amongst ordinary Welsh people.
So the Welsh can't be antisemitic? Really?
That is a pretty clumsy attempt at defending him!
Clumsy or not I believe the Welsh aren't anti-semitic. The majority of the electorate will be looking at all of this very puzzled.
It'll be talk about augmenting capabilities, co-operation and so forth. But there'll still be the drift towards centralisation as sovereignty ebbs away.
For European countries (including the UK) to augment their capabilities would be a very good thing given current capabilities and threats, irrespective of the EU.
The umbrella protection from the USA is going to go and when the decision is made it will be rapid..
Yes. That is one reason that has pushed me towards a European answer. What does the US get out of NATO?
So is that what you are waiting for David?
No. As I mentioned in my 11.06 post, armed forces are a defining feature of a state. Unless the will is there, among both public an politicians, to build that state then it shouldn't be attempted. It will fail for one reason or another, but probably to do with inadequate or contradictory control.
SimonStClare suggested that "member states [would be] required to beef up their military capability where necessary and introduce legislation for minimum military budget expenditure" but even that would would be too much of a fudge. In reality, it'd need to be the EU itself which set and funded the budget - and that would have many constitutional implications.
But it comes back to the public. It would be stupid to try to build new European structures when there's so little confidence in existing ones. best to sort that out first.
The eternal contradictions in the EU remain just that, contradictions, which can never be reconciled with democracy. In trying to make a new European Wehrmacht the whole organization will implode.
Are they saying he's anti semitic too? As I just said to Floater this quickly gets out of hand! Read what he's accused of doing. I'd decided to stop posting on this subject-I don't even like Corbyn's Labour Party-but I felt they were being treated unfairly.
Then I read Guido's latest on Paul Flynn.......
.....I don't know him or anything about him. But he wrote to a Jewish constituent saying he's been in the Party for 30 years and he had never seen any anti semitism (why would he?) He sounded crushed. The constituent unkindly sent the letter to Guido who returned the favour by doing a character assasination on Flynn.
That's where this thing has led and why people have to speak up.
I've never been in the Labour Party but I am aware of an undercurrent of antisemitism even if it has been brought to my attention recently. If Mr Flynn really hasn't seen any in 30 years then he has been looking the other way.
I'll make a clumsy attempt at defending him. I think he's in N Wales, I doubt anti semitism is ever mentioned there in any context, it just won't exist amongst ordinary Welsh people.
So the Welsh can't be antisemitic? Really?
That is a pretty clumsy attempt at defending him!
Clumsy or not I believe the Welsh aren't anti-semitic. The majority of the electorate will be looking at all of this very puzzled.
So have I got the process right on a Labour leadership challenge while it's in opposition?
* In advance of the annual conference, 20% of MPs (+ MEPs?) nominate a challenger. * There's a straight conference vote, if the challenger wins that they're leader, no need for the membership to take time out of their busy schedules to say who they think it should be ???
Fellow progressives, we shouldn't blame everything on Corbyn. Yes, he may eccentric, a clown or even a loon but he won the leadership election by a landslide (even taking out the £3 members). The real issue with the Labour party is the lack of talent in the party. Let's face it and it pains me to say this, the Labour front bench must be the weakest of any political party in British political history.
There are a few MPs not on the front bench who are moderately capable but definitely no stars. To be honest, Ed Milliband is a giant compared to most...
As someone who firmly believes in progressive politics, I really hope Labour can sort itself out. I don't think Corbyn will survive much after 2018 but in that time he and his team could do a lot of damage. And for those thinking there is a messiah waiting in the wings - there isn't sadly.
The one piece of good news is that Sadiq Khan will almost certainly win the Mayoral election in London. But the other news is bleak...
Are they saying he's anti semitic too? As I just said to Floater this quickly gets out of hand! Read what he's accused of doing. I'd decided to stop posting on this subject-I don't even like Corbyn's Labour Party-but I felt they were being treated unfairly.
Then I read Guido's latest on Paul Flynn.......
.....I don't know him or anything about him. But he wrote to a Jewish constituent saying he's been in the Party for 30 years and he had never seen any anti semitism (why would he?) He sounded crushed. The constituent unkindly sent the letter to Guido who returned the favour by doing a character assasination on Flynn.
That's where this thing has led and why people have to speak up.
I've never been in the Labour Party but I am aware of an undercurrent of antisemitism even if it has been brought to my attention recently. If Mr Flynn really hasn't seen any in 30 years then he has been looking the other way.
I'll make a clumsy attempt at defending him. I think he's in N Wales, I doubt anti semitism is ever mentioned there in any context, it just won't exist amongst ordinary Welsh people.
So the Welsh can't be antisemitic? Really?
That is a pretty clumsy attempt at defending him!
As any Englishman who has ever attended an England/Wales rugby match can attest, the Welsh are the most racist bigoted nation in the UK.
I think you could probably say the same for the crowds at any major international sporting fixture.
I hadn't appreciated quite how ancient Flynn is - 81 years of age.
He is a dinosaur in so many ways. It is time for Parliament (both houses) to have a sensible upper age limit for members. There is a case for experience - but that also has to be tempered with the needs of our representatives to active both mentally and physically. His recent comments show that his judgement is certainly flawed.
Introducing one form of discrimination to try to tackle another is never a good idea. Select people on their merits, not their gender, race, religion, sexuality or age. If Flynn is past it then it's down to his party to deselect him or the electorate to pick someone else.
@cyclefree. You gave a very good reply to my post last night.
Seeing the jubilation at Leicester today, I have often thought sport is a much better way to settle local and national differences and a great way to proudly assert our identity.
The mood at Stamford Bridge wasn't quite as attractive unfortunately. Football brings out the best and worst in our national psyche
@cyclefree. You gave a very good reply to my post last night.
Seeing the jubilation at Leicester today, I have often thought sport is a much better way to settle local and national differences and a great way to proudly assert our identity.
My identity is a Spurs-supporting, former Labour voter who wants us to stay in the EU. If I were prone to self-pity I'd be feeling very sorry for myself right now ;-)
@cyclefree. You gave a very good reply to my post last night.
Seeing the jubilation at Leicester today, I have often thought sport is a much better way to settle local and national differences and a great way to proudly assert our identity.
The mood at Stamford Bridge wasn't quite as attractive unfortunately. Football brings out the best and worst in our national psyche
I'm amazed Spurs finished the game with 11 players, I thought Dembele's eye gouging of Costa was a real low point. They looked like very sore losers last night, and completely took Chelsea's bait.
It'll be talk about augmenting capabilities, co-operation and so forth. But there'll still be the drift towards centralisation as sovereignty ebbs away.
For European countries (including the UK) to augment their capabilities would be a very good thing given current capabilities and threats, irrespective of the EU.
The umbrella protection from the USA is going to go and when the decision is made it will be rapid..
Yes. That is one reason that has pushed me towards a European answer. What does the US get out of NATO?
So is that what you are waiting for David?
No. As I mentioned in my 11.06 post, armed forces are a defining feature of a state. Unless the will is there, among both public an politicians, to build that state then it shouldn't be attempted. It will fail for one reason or another, but probably to do with inadequate or contradictory control.
SimonStClare suggested that "member states [would be] required to beef up their military capability where necessary and introduce legislation for minimum military budget expenditure" but even that would would be too much of a fudge. In reality, it'd need to be the EU itself which set and funded the budget - and that would have many constitutional implications.
But it comes back to the public. It would be stupid to try to build new European structures when there's so little confidence in existing ones. best to sort that out first.
The eternal contradictions in the EU remain just that, contradictions, which can never be reconciled with democracy. In trying to make a new European Wehrmacht the whole organization will implode.
They can easily be reconciled with democracy. The answer is more democracy. Of course, it suits a lot of people not to have that democracy, which is why what's there now is far from adequate.
p.s. Using WWII terminology really doesn't help your case.
An interesting article. I wonder if he is right? A failed coup would surely be worse for Labour than no coup.
Has Corbyn given the plotters a hostage by saying labour won;t lose seats?
Yup, a huge one. The big problem for the plotters is how to persuade the membership that Corbyn was obviously going to lose the election. I know that's how it looks to us, but they don't have good benchmarks for this kind of thing, and they don't trust the media ones either.
I've just come back from a saunter around England- Oxford and Norwich, specifically. I have never seen so many Labour posts up. The liberal intelligentsia love him- support for Jezza is a badge of honour for hip lefties who want to impress their kids and their kids mates and their neighbours. The Glasto crowd, invariably middle aged. And the Unions. It is not even worth arguing with anyone because the fact that Jez is unelectable is neither here nor there- being leader of the Labour party is the prize they cherish.
That said, there is an undercurrent of party members who share my views which is certainly increasing- many though are too timid to express such heretical views publicly.
I have met with serious racism in Scotland but the worst was in Wales..absolutely appalling stuff..From the Producer and his team on a film I shot there in Cardiff..the Exec wanted me to take them to court.. Due to that I turned down the new Dr Who Series..on the basis of.. Who needs this ignorant racist shit..
I've just come back from a saunter around England- Oxford and Norwich, specifically. I have never seen so many Labour posts up. The liberal intelligentsia love him- support for Jezza is a badge of honour for hip lefties who want to impress their kids and their kids mates and their neighbours. The Glasto crowd, invariably middle aged. And the Unions. It is not even worth arguing with anyone because the fact that Jez is unelectable is neither here nor there- being leader of the Labour party is the prize they cherish.
That said, there is an undercurrent of party members who share my views which is certainly increasing- many though are too timid to express such heretical views publicly.
I do hope that Hodge does not challenge Corbyn, as she is Jewish. It would merely add fuel to the general perception that Jews and Zionist sympathisers are currently trying to knife the Labour leadership and lead to an increase in anti-Semitism. However deplorable their views, the witch hunt against Labour representatives expressing anti-Semitic opinions will back-fire on the Jewish community as a whole, particularly if this brings down the Labour leadership. The malevolent Guido Fawkes is doing the Jews no favours.
This is a view I find far scarier than open racism. The Jewish community should abnegate their rights and hide themselves from public eye so that they don't make discrimination against them worse.
No. In our society, everyone has the right to exercise all their rights and to be proud about who they are. That is something we should protect for everyone, regardless of ethnicity, religion, sex, orientation etc...
The moment we advise someone not to run for office, or be too public, we are doing two things: 1. making them second-class citizens (and in so doing punishing the victims) 2. giving up on our way of life, values and political philosophy.
At least with open racism we have a nastiness to attack and in so doing stand up for our way. This position poses as reasonableness and simply throws away our standing.
Please tell me that you do not really mean what you have posted.
I do hope that Hodge does not challenge Corbyn, as she is Jewish. It would merely add fuel to the general perception that Jews and Zionist sympathisers are currently trying to knife the Labour leadership and lead to an increase in anti-Semitism. However deplorable their views, the witch hunt against Labour representatives expressing anti-Semitic opinions will back-fire on the Jewish community as a whole, particularly if this brings down the Labour leadership. The malevolent Guido Fawkes is doing the Jews no favours.
I am sorry but I do not understand how will it backfire on the Jewish Community as a whole
They will get the blame and it will be held against them long-term, just like the behaviour of Judeo-Bolshevists did in the defeated Central Powers in 1918-9. It is best for Jews if they stay out of controversial areas of public life, such as politics and big business.
I read the last sentence twice bleary eyed at this hour as I am. Then I read it a third time slowly and yes my first reaction was right - WTF?! If you substitute "Welsh" for "Jews" ( I could pick many others!) that would be ok in your world would it?
Why did Kinnock lose in 1992? Why were the posters of Ed M in Salmond's shirt pocket so effective last year?
Are you suggesting that Howard lost because he was Welsh? Or Home because he was Scottish?
Since the Welsh Wizard (DLG), it has been a handicap for the main British political parties to have a non-English leader. Howard was perceived as Jewish, not Welsh. Surveys show that Sturgeon is once of the most disliked politicians in the UK as a whole, however highly regarded she is in Scotland.
Is it worth reminding you daodoa that Labour did far better under Blair in Wales than they did under Kinnock? Kinnock's problem was not his Welshness but his uselessness.
Blair was of course not English either. However unlike Sturgeon he had the sense not to make a fetish of his Scottishness or base it on anti-English feelings.
Blair was never Scottish , and Sturgeon has never ever expressed any anti English feelings. Not like you to be posting such absolute rubbish , usually one of the most measured posters on the site.
I've just come back from a saunter around England- Oxford and Norwich, specifically. I have never seen so many Labour posts up. The liberal intelligentsia love him- support for Jezza is a badge of honour for hip lefties who want to impress their kids and their kids mates and their neighbours. The Glasto crowd, invariably middle aged. And the Unions. It is not even worth arguing with anyone because the fact that Jez is unelectable is neither here nor there- being leader of the Labour party is the prize they cherish.
That said, there is an undercurrent of party members who share my views which is certainly increasing- many though are too timid to express such heretical views publicly.
Yup, a huge one. The big problem for the plotters is how to persuade the membership that Corbyn was obviously going to lose the election. I know that's how it looks to us, but they don't have good benchmarks for this kind of thing, and they don't trust the media ones either.
The plotters don't want to persuade the membership that Corbyn was obviously going to lose the election; if anything, they want the reverse, so it's portrayed as a huge unexpected loss.
Having said that, I don't think it matters much anyway. The Corbynistas are by definition immune to reason; they'll find someone other than Jezza to blame (Blairites, the Mail, the wicked Tories, Guido, the mainstream media, etc etc.)
I have met with serious racism in Scotland but the worst was in Wales..absolutely appalling stuff..From the Producer and his team on a film I shot there in Cardiff..the Exec wanted me to take them to court.. Due to that I turned down the new Dr Who Series..on the basis of.. Who needs this ignorant racist shit..
What kind of racism? And where? Was it in the Cardiff Bay area?
South Cardiff is probably the most multi-cultural area in Wales.
In my opinion Wales is an incredibly friendly and easy-going place.
You can call the lack of talent waiting in the wings for all parties. The Tory party is convulsing with existential crisis at the prospect of replacing DC.
I personally think after a pro EU vote DC may stay on to fight another election- especially if Labour continues to implode down a vacuum. The prospect of winning a resounding second majority is too enticing, and the risk of handing on the mantel to a bitterly divided party too great.
The big political story of the next years will be Dave's U turn rather than some feeble non attempt to replace Jezza by a gutless Parliamentary party.
Fellow progressives, we shouldn't blame everything on Corbyn. Yes, he may eccentric, a clown or even a loon but he won the leadership election by a landslide (even taking out the £3 members). The real issue with the Labour party is the lack of talent in the party. Let's face it and it pains me to say this, the Labour front bench must be the weakest of any political party in British political history.
There are a few MPs not on the front bench who are moderately capable but definitely no stars. To be honest, Ed Milliband is a giant compared to most...
As someone who firmly believes in progressive politics, I really hope Labour can sort itself out. I don't think Corbyn will survive much after 2018 but in that time he and his team could do a lot of damage. And for those thinking there is a messiah waiting in the wings - there isn't sadly.
The one piece of good news is that Sadiq Khan will almost certainly win the Mayoral election in London. But the other news is bleak...
@cyclefree. You gave a very good reply to my post last night.
Seeing the jubilation at Leicester today, I have often thought sport is a much better way to settle local and national differences and a great way to proudly assert our identity.
The mood at Stamford Bridge wasn't quite as attractive unfortunately. Football brings out the best and worst in our national psyche
I'm amazed Spurs finished the game with 11 players, I thought Dembele's eye gouging of Costa was a real low point. They looked like very sore losers last night, and completely took Chelsea's bait.
So I'm completely biased, but is there a case for docking points? The last time the FA did that for disciplinary reasons was in 1990 when Man Utd and Arsenal had a big fight. I think the behavior of Spurs players was worse last night.
Some us are still ploughing on in series 4 when Jon Snow looks to be alive and well and doing a good job at the Knight's Watch. I hope nothing bad happens to him......
@cyclefree. You gave a very good reply to my post last night.
Seeing the jubilation at Leicester today, I have often thought sport is a much better way to settle local and national differences and a great way to proudly assert our identity.
The mood at Stamford Bridge wasn't quite as attractive unfortunately. Football brings out the best and worst in our national psyche
I'm amazed Spurs finished the game with 11 players, I thought Dembele's eye gouging of Costa was a real low point. They looked like very sore losers last night, and completely took Chelsea's bait.
So I'm completely biased, but is there a case for docking points? The last time the FA did that for disciplinary reasons was in 1990 when Man Utd and Arsenal had a big fight. I think the behavior of Spurs players was worse last night.
I think the eye gouging should be a longer ban than 3 matches - that is incredibly low and dangerous
(It matters not that the victim wasn't exactly St Francis of Assissi)
For Rugby Union the scales are as follows:
Scales of the offence
Lower end: up to 12-week ban. Mid range: up to 18-week ban. Top end: greater than 24-week ban.
The maximum sanction is a 156-week (3 year) ban.
I think Dembele should get a 10 match minimum tbh.
You can immediately redeem yourself if you (or anyone else for that matter) could remind me of the odd, lengthy word Andrew Neil used a few months ago, maybe about Ed Balls. I have a vague notion it was akin to paternoster, but that clearly wasn't it. It's just bugging me (I thought I'd made a note of it, as it's an old-fashioned, slightly obscure word that might be useful for comedy).
Edited extra bit: I realise the level of detail is unhelpful, but it was a stand-out unusual term.
Labour Voter: "You are absolutely dreadful; I can't believe what you've done. Corbyn is an absolute joke, his leadership is abysmal and his management of the party an absolute outrage." Canvasser: "Can I count on your vote?" Labour Voter: "Yeah, I always vote Labour."
@cyclefree. You gave a very good reply to my post last night.
Seeing the jubilation at Leicester today, I have often thought sport is a much better way to settle local and national differences and a great way to proudly assert our identity.
The mood at Stamford Bridge wasn't quite as attractive unfortunately. Football brings out the best and worst in our national psyche
I'm amazed Spurs finished the game with 11 players, I thought Dembele's eye gouging of Costa was a real low point. They looked like very sore losers last night, and completely took Chelsea's bait.
So I'm completely biased, but is there a case for docking points? The last time the FA did that for disciplinary reasons was in 1990 when Man Utd and Arsenal had a big fight. I think the behavior of Spurs players was worse last night.
I think the eye gouging should be a longer ban than 3 matches - that is incredibly low and dangerous
For Rugby Union the scales are as follows:
Scales of the offence
Lower end: up to 12-week ban. Mid range: up to 18-week ban. Top end: greater than 24-week ban.
The maximum sanction is a 156-week (3 year) ban.
I think Tomas Francis got eight weeks for what he did against England.
A couple of things.. Firstly are there any bookmakers offering odds on seats lost, seats gained in the locals on this Thursday? PP normally do but they havent anything up.
Secondly there is a massively heightened security presence at the moment. I came back from Dubai into Gatwick yesterday lunchtime and the police were there in droves inside the passport hall all tooled up with sniffer dogs checking everybody out. Everybody had to walk in single file. Then i hear this morning that they are stopping buses in Shepherds bush sending armed police onto them and hauling certain individuals off. Any body else seen any of this?
@MrHarryCole: Suspended Labour cllr on Daily Politics says he is 'disappointed' his Hitler tweet has come to light. I bet.
@MrHarryCole: Labour cllr says his suspension is "unfortunate" but is "expected" during "witch-hunt". He just defended comparing Jews to Hitler live on TV
@MrAndyboy: "I'm a Musim councillor and therefore my comments have been taken out of context" #bbcp
This daodao is a bit of a rum un..Total fruitcake..
I wonder if he is a Labour sockpuppet. "This is what an antisemite looks like. Nothing to do with us."
A Mossad agent provocateur - Mark Senior was alleging that last night...
Indeed, that claim of Mossad agents infesting and posting on PB had to be the height of tinfoilery . I think Cyclefree was even outed as a potential Mossad sleeper last night.
Clive Lewis on the naughty step, at least he didn't use that transportation word.
Is he not quoting someone else?
Is not quoting someone like that endorsing the sentiment?
Erm....no?
Has Guido Fawkes been endorsing the sentiment of the various anti-Semitic tweets over the past few days, simply because he's been quoting them?
There is something very different about reporting something and repeating something
Lewis repeated something - without further comment or elaboration. It is not unreasonable to interpret that as support for the sentiments expressed.
Do we even know there was no further comment or elaboration? We have no idea if he made any tweets immediately before/after that one, given Twitter character limits and all.
@cyclefree. You gave a very good reply to my post last night.
Seeing the jubilation at Leicester today, I have often thought sport is a much better way to settle local and national differences and a great way to proudly assert our identity.
The mood at Stamford Bridge wasn't quite as attractive unfortunately. Football brings out the best and worst in our national psyche
I'm amazed Spurs finished the game with 11 players, I thought Dembele's eye gouging of Costa was a real low point. They looked like very sore losers last night, and completely took Chelsea's bait.
So I'm completely biased, but is there a case for docking points? The last time the FA did that for disciplinary reasons was in 1990 when Man Utd and Arsenal had a big fight. I think the behavior of Spurs players was worse last night.
I think the eye gouging should be a longer ban than 3 matches - that is incredibly low and dangerous
(It matters not that the victim wasn't exactly St Francis of Assissi)
For Rugby Union the scales are as follows:
Scales of the offence
Lower end: up to 12-week ban. Mid range: up to 18-week ban. Top end: greater than 24-week ban.
The maximum sanction is a 156-week (3 year) ban.
I think Dembele should get a 10 match minimum tbh.
I think that sounds about right for Dembele. I suspect Spurs might get a hefty fine for failing to control their players.
It'll be talk about augmenting capabilities, co-operation and so forth. But there'll still be the drift towards centralisation as sovereignty ebbs away.
For European countries (including the UK) to augment their capabilities would be a very good thing given current capabilities and threats, irrespective of the EU.
The umbrella protection from the USA is going to go and when the decision is made it will be rapid..
Yes. That is one reason that has pushed me towards a European answer. What does the US get out of NATO?
So is that what you are waiting for David?
No. As I mentioned in my 11.06 post, armed forces are a defining feature of a state. Unless the will is there, among both public an politicians, to build that state then it shouldn't be attempted. It will fail for one reason or another, but probably to do with inadequate or contradictory control.
SimonStClare suggested that "member states [would be] required to beef up their military capability where necessary and introduce legislation for minimum military budget expenditure" but even that would would be too much of a fudge. In reality, it'd need to be the EU itself which set and funded the budget - and that would have many constitutional implications.
But it comes back to the public. It would be stupid to try to build new European structures when there's so little confidence in existing ones. best to sort that out first.
The eternal contradictions in the EU remain just that, contradictions, which can never be reconciled with democracy. In trying to make a new European Wehrmacht the whole organization will implode.
They can easily be reconciled with democracy. The answer is more democracy. Of course, it suits a lot of people not to have that democracy, which is why what's there now is far from adequate.
p.s. Using WWII terminology really doesn't help your case.
I'm not making a case, as such. If a European wide EU Army is launched the kingpin will be Germany's Bundeswehr, which itself is based on the old Wehrmacht of the Nazi period, which in turn was based on the old Imperial German Army.
Worth noting that one thing Labour's antiSemitism crisis has done is drive the Blue-on-Blue EURef attacks out of the news. That alone may be worth 2-3% to the Tories.
I used to like Chelsea in the Ranieri days, until I had the misfortune to watch a match against Man U in a pub near London with a large group of them. They actually achieved the impossible- they made me want Utd to win.
@cyclefree. You gave a very good reply to my post last night.
Seeing the jubilation at Leicester today, I have often thought sport is a much better way to settle local and national differences and a great way to proudly assert our identity.
The mood at Stamford Bridge wasn't quite as attractive unfortunately. Football brings out the best and worst in our national psyche
I have met with serious racism in Scotland but the worst was in Wales..absolutely appalling stuff..From the Producer and his team on a film I shot there in Cardiff..the Exec wanted me to take them to court.. Due to that I turned down the new Dr Who Series..on the basis of.. Who needs this ignorant racist shit..
I'm sure lots of people get called stupid, old English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish ****s in loads of places, not necessarily prima facie cases of racism though.
Worth noting that one thing Labour's antiSemitism crisis has done is drive the Blue-on-Blue EURef attacks out of the news. That alone may be worth 2-3% to the Tories.
Red on Red has been in the background ever since Jezza took the Labour Helm, no?
I have met with serious racism in Scotland but the worst was in Wales..absolutely appalling stuff..From the Producer and his team on a film I shot there in Cardiff..the Exec wanted me to take them to court.. Due to that I turned down the new Dr Who Series..on the basis of.. Who needs this ignorant racist shit..
And England is any better , are you deluded or just myopic. People in glass houses and all that
@cyclefree. You gave a very good reply to my post last night.
Seeing the jubilation at Leicester today, I have often thought sport is a much better way to settle local and national differences and a great way to proudly assert our identity.
The mood at Stamford Bridge wasn't quite as attractive unfortunately. Football brings out the best and worst in our national psyche
I'm amazed Spurs finished the game with 11 players, I thought Dembele's eye gouging of Costa was a real low point. They looked like very sore losers last night, and completely took Chelsea's bait.
So I'm completely biased, but is there a case for docking points? The last time the FA did that for disciplinary reasons was in 1990 when Man Utd and Arsenal had a big fight. I think the behavior of Spurs players was worse last night.
You're usually quite sensible and fair talking about Spurs but come off it. They completely lost it last night, 1 or 2 could easily have got reds but docking points is just silly, it would set a dreadful precedent. I don't share many views with Wenger but I'm sure we'd agree on Costa, when I saw Chelsea v Arsenal earlier in the season it was the first and only time I've wanted Arsenal to win a game.
btw I saw Fabregas at Spurs earlier in the season, first time live in years - was he always so slow?
There was also a previous by election where Labour totalled 52%.
These two seats may provide some real mood music on the referendum.
You're not really comparing like with like in Sheffield though.
The seat is very different now to what the predecessor seat was in 1997.
Yes, I've amalgamated the results from the separate Sheffield seats from pre-2010, so it won't be a precise science, just some general mood music.
It's less mood music, more comparing the opera to heavy metal.
Sheffield Hillsborough Labour share of the vote in 1997: 56.9%
Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough share of the vote in 2015: 56.6%
...and Brightside in 1997 was 76.9%.
Amalgamated electorate 86889 - Labour vote 55051 (63.4%).
But it is silly to assume everything was amalgamated into the new seat.
Some of it was shunted to Sheffield Central.
I've already acknowledged that it isn't precise
It is not meant to be taken as absolute gospel, just a broad pointer towards mood. By all means exercise judgement and discount the numbers pre-2010 if you feel that's the thing to do.
I have met with serious racism in Scotland but the worst was in Wales..absolutely appalling stuff..From the Producer and his team on a film I shot there in Cardiff..the Exec wanted me to take them to court.. Due to that I turned down the new Dr Who Series..on the basis of.. Who needs this ignorant racist shit..
What kind of racism? And where? Was it in the Cardiff Bay area?
South Cardiff is probably the most multi-cultural area in Wales.
In my opinion Wales is an incredibly friendly and easy-going place.
Doddsy is your typical Little Englander , bigoted to the core. One idiot means the whole country is racist.
I have met with serious racism in Scotland but the worst was in Wales..absolutely appalling stuff..From the Producer and his team on a film I shot there in Cardiff..the Exec wanted me to take them to court.. Due to that I turned down the new Dr Who Series..on the basis of.. Who needs this ignorant racist shit..
What kind of racism? And where? Was it in the Cardiff Bay area?
South Cardiff is probably the most multi-cultural area in Wales.
In my opinion Wales is an incredibly friendly and easy-going place.
I have met with serious racism in Scotland but the worst was in Wales..absolutely appalling stuff..From the Producer and his team on a film I shot there in Cardiff..the Exec wanted me to take them to court.. Due to that I turned down the new Dr Who Series..on the basis of.. Who needs this ignorant racist shit..
What kind of racism? And where? Was it in the Cardiff Bay area?
South Cardiff is probably the most multi-cultural area in Wales.
In my opinion Wales is an incredibly friendly and easy-going place.
Doddsy is your typical Little Englander , bigoted to the core.
No racism in Scotland! No Sireeeee!
Scotland has no time for racism, they're all too busying engaging in sectarianism
They can easily be reconciled with democracy. The answer is more democracy. Of course, it suits a lot of people not to have that democracy, which is why what's there now is far from adequate.
So trying to cut my way through David's elliptical reasoning, I think he is trying to say a European Army is a good thing but would need to come about as a result of the creation of a 'democratic' United States of Europe, rather than precede it.
This of course is not how the EU works. But even if it were, there is the rather serious issue of the UK population not wanting the UK to be part of a United States of Europe, whether it be 'democratic' or not.
Comments
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/03/a-coup-against-jeremy-corbyn-is-probably-doomed-but-labour-still/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4223091.stm
The 'fagin' advert was copied. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwjkla233b3MAhUDDSwKHYSvCRQQjRwIBw&url=http://order-order.com/2005/02/&psig=AFQjCNFGOrdjtHlMydlah64UO7x9grnANw&ust=1462358650270805
She is a grade A Labour hypocrite - she should go far
Aren't there laws against that?!
Reading all that seems he needs to "clarify" pretty quickly what he means. Does he mean that being jewish and being British are in some way not compatible?
I can't wait another day, so quivering with excitement at my new forecast, which is:
1. Remain are now ahead by only a sliver in winning the referendum. 50.47% to 49.53%
2. Donald Trump wins nomination easily and is ahead of Hillary by 52,2% to 47.80%
3. chaos and mayhem possible on Thursday night as the election results come in. Eating of hats mandatory. No Sepuku please.
But you have to be honest about it and do all you can to confront/challenge it. Not become an apologist for it or a denier.
SimonStClare suggested that "member states [would be] required to beef up their military capability where necessary and introduce legislation for minimum military budget expenditure" but even that would would be too much of a fudge. In reality, it'd need to be the EU itself which set and funded the budget - and that would have many constitutional implications.
But it comes back to the public. It would be stupid to try to build new European structures when there's so little confidence in existing ones. best to sort that out first.
Seeing the jubilation at Leicester today, I have often thought sport is a much better way to settle local and national differences and a great way to proudly assert our identity.
https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/727445494058868736
Rump Labour under Corbyn could continue in their fight for purity
New Reformed Labour under whoever could start to rebuild as a credible left-of-centre force
Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough
Labour (UK Independence/Nationalists in brackets)
1997 63.4% (2.6%)
2001 64.3% (1.9%)
2005 57.3% (7.9%)
2010 55.0% (11.9%)
2015 56.6% (22.1%)
Ogmore
Labour (UK Independence/Nationalists in brackets)
1997 74.0 (0%)
2001 62.0% (0%)
2005 60.4% (0%)
2010 53.8% (5.9%)
2015 52.9% (15.4%)
There was also a previous by election where Labour totalled 52%.
These two seats may provide some real mood music on the referendum.
Flynn is at best a denier in this - at worst an apologist.
* In advance of the annual conference, 20% of MPs (+ MEPs?) nominate a challenger.
* There's a straight conference vote, if the challenger wins that they're leader, no need for the membership to take time out of their busy schedules to say who they think it should be
???
There even seem to be some claims around that Corbyn would need nominations from the parliamentary party so they could just collectively decline to nominate him, but this argument that it wouldn't work seems convincing:
http://labourlist.org/2015/11/should-the-rules-about-leadership-contests-be-changed/
There are a few MPs not on the front bench who are moderately capable but definitely no stars. To be honest, Ed Milliband is a giant compared to most...
As someone who firmly believes in progressive politics, I really hope Labour can sort itself out. I don't think Corbyn will survive much after 2018 but in that time he and his team could do a lot of damage. And for those thinking there is a messiah waiting in the wings - there isn't sadly.
The one piece of good news is that Sadiq Khan will almost certainly win the Mayoral election in London. But the other news is bleak...
The seat is very different now to what the predecessor seat was in 1997.
p.s. Using WWII terminology really doesn't help your case.
OK fair point, maybe I was wrong in giving him the benefit of the doubt
That said, there is an undercurrent of party members who share my views which is certainly increasing- many though are too timid to express such heretical views publicly.
Sheffield Hillsborough Labour share of the vote in 1997: 56.9%
Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough share of the vote in 2015: 56.6%
No. In our society, everyone has the right to exercise all their rights and to be proud about who they are. That is something we should protect for everyone, regardless of ethnicity, religion, sex, orientation etc...
The moment we advise someone not to run for office, or be too public, we are doing two things:
1. making them second-class citizens (and in so doing punishing the victims)
2. giving up on our way of life, values and political philosophy.
At least with open racism we have a nastiness to attack and in so doing stand up for our way. This position poses as reasonableness and simply throws away our standing.
Please tell me that you do not really mean what you have posted.
Clive Lewis on the naughty step, at least he didn't use that transportation word.
Having said that, I don't think it matters much anyway. The Corbynistas are by definition immune to reason; they'll find someone other than Jezza to blame (Blairites, the Mail, the wicked Tories, Guido, the mainstream media, etc etc.)
South Cardiff is probably the most multi-cultural area in Wales.
In my opinion Wales is an incredibly friendly and easy-going place.
Lewis is a former BBC journalist.... he knows what he is doing with language (or at least should)
I personally think after a pro EU vote DC may stay on to fight another election- especially if Labour continues to implode down a vacuum. The prospect of winning a resounding second majority is too enticing, and the risk of handing on the mantel to a bitterly divided party too great.
The big political story of the next years will be Dave's U turn rather than some feeble non attempt to replace Jezza by a gutless Parliamentary party.
https://twitter.com/gsoh31/status/727431312739565569
Amalgamated electorate 86889 - Labour vote 55051 (63.4%).
Some us are still ploughing on in series 4 when Jon Snow looks to be alive and well and doing a good job at the Knight's Watch. I hope nothing bad happens to him......
Has Guido Fawkes been endorsing the sentiment of the various anti-Semitic tweets over the past few days, simply because he's been quoting them?
(It matters not that the victim wasn't exactly St Francis of Assissi)
For Rugby Union the scales are as follows:
Scales of the offence
Lower end: up to 12-week ban.
Mid range: up to 18-week ban.
Top end: greater than 24-week ban.
The maximum sanction is a 156-week (3 year) ban.
I think Dembele should get a 10 match minimum tbh.
Lewis repeated something - without further comment or elaboration. It is not unreasonable to interpret that as support for the sentiments expressed.
You can immediately redeem yourself if you (or anyone else for that matter) could remind me of the odd, lengthy word Andrew Neil used a few months ago, maybe about Ed Balls. I have a vague notion it was akin to paternoster, but that clearly wasn't it. It's just bugging me (I thought I'd made a note of it, as it's an old-fashioned, slightly obscure word that might be useful for comedy).
Edited extra bit: I realise the level of detail is unhelpful, but it was a stand-out unusual term.
Canvasser: "Can I count on your vote?"
Labour Voter: "Yeah, I always vote Labour."
Firstly are there any bookmakers offering odds on seats lost, seats gained in the locals on this Thursday? PP normally do but they havent anything up.
Secondly there is a massively heightened security presence at the moment. I came back from Dubai into Gatwick yesterday lunchtime and the police were there in droves inside the passport hall all tooled up with sniffer dogs checking everybody out. Everybody had to walk in single file. Then i hear this morning that they are stopping buses in Shepherds bush sending armed police onto them and hauling certain individuals off. Any body else seen any of this?
@MrHarryCole: Labour cllr says his suspension is "unfortunate" but is "expected" during "witch-hunt". He just defended comparing Jews to Hitler live on TV
@MrAndyboy: "I'm a Musim councillor and therefore my comments have been taken out of context" #bbcp
Some of it was shunted to Sheffield Central.
That's the chap.
"Don't be stupid, be a smarty, come and join the Labour party"
If the BBC Premiership Table is to be believed only The Foxes and West Ham have points from all of their last TEN matches
btw I saw Fabregas at Spurs earlier in the season, first time live in years - was he always so slow?
It is not meant to be taken as absolute gospel, just a broad pointer towards mood. By all means exercise judgement and discount the numbers pre-2010 if you feel that's the thing to do.
One idiot means the whole country is racist.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/03/jeremy-corbyn-insists-labour-will-not-lose-any-council-seats/
Prior to the Republican nom process starting the polls said Trump was going to win. Trump has now won.
Prior to the Presidential election the polls say Trump is going to lose. How do you turn that into Trump is going to crush Hilary?
They can easily be reconciled with democracy. The answer is more democracy. Of course, it suits a lot of people not to have that democracy, which is why what's there now is far from adequate.
----------------------------------------------------
So trying to cut my way through David's elliptical reasoning, I think he is trying to say a European Army is a good thing but would need to come about as a result of the creation of a 'democratic' United States of Europe, rather than precede it.
This of course is not how the EU works. But even if it were, there is the rather serious issue of the UK population not wanting the UK to be part of a United States of Europe, whether it be 'democratic' or not.