I do hope that Hodge does not challenge Corbyn, as she is Jewish. It would merely add fuel to the general perception that Jews and Zionist sympathisers are currently trying to knife the Labour leadership and lead to an increase in anti-Semitism. However deplorable their views, the witch hunt against Labour representatives expressing anti-Semitic opinions will back-fire on the Jewish community as a whole, particularly if this brings down the Labour leadership. The malevolent Guido Fawkes is doing the Jews no favours.
I am sorry but I do not understand how will it backfire on the Jewish Community as a whole
They will get the blame and it will be held against them long-term, just like the behaviour of Judeo-Bolshevists did in the defeated Central Powers in 1918-9. It is best for Jews if they stay out of controversial areas of public life, such as politics and big business.
I read the last sentence twice bleary eyed at this hour as I am. Then I read it a third time slowly and yes my first reaction was right - WTF?! If you substitute "Welsh" for "Jews" ( I could pick many others!) that would be ok in your world would it?
Why did Kinnock lose in 1992? Why were the posters of Ed M in Salmond's shirt pocket so effective last year?
Because they were crap socialists the public could not imagine as responsible Prime Minister material.
off topic - one thing that continues to please me about modern, PL football, and I appreciate that there is still work to be done on the terraces, is the sheer, natural inclusiveness and colourblindness of black, brown, white, asian footballers.
Looking at any goal celebration, and in particular the Leicester players celebrating at Jamie Vardy's in Melton, one has to be encouraged.
There's more than a touch of work to be done in the stands. Look at the faces at a Bradford, Blackburn or Leicester (rugby or soccer) match. If the grounds are selling out you can argue that it doesn't matter but that's not a claim that Bradford could ever make.
Incidentally, I was browsing elsewhere and this quote came along, which seemed rather apt: "Henry Brooks Adams: Politics... have always been the systematic organization of hatreds."
Re the Labour plotters - how do they cope with the quite likely scenario where Jeremy is reelected?
Therein lies the problem. You could argue that 'sending a message' is a legitimate aim but what message would it send if Corbyn wins? This isn't like Thatcher vs Meyer, when all Meyer votes were clearly proxies for anti-Thatcher (not least because of the Tory system; genuine contenders could enter at a later stage if needs be, unlike with Labour), and the aim was mainly to send a shot across her bows anyway.
If Corbyn were to win again, the centre would find it very difficult to mount a second challenge later in the parliament: Labour would have seen Corbyn in action and endorsed him. A second challenge would also likely take place at the time of parliamentary re/selections.
Which is why Hodge isn't an adequate challenger. If someone is to go up against Corbyn, it has to be a heavyweight; someone who could do the job and is capable of looking prime ministerial. Put simply, someone who the membership can see is clearly a better bet for 2020. They need to persuade Yvette.
They need to persuade Chukka, who is not tainted with defeat. But not yet I think.
Chuka will probably be Labour leader but not until after a 2020 loss, he would then most likely win the 2025 election. Pre 2020 the most likely replacement is McDonnell
RE: Leicester, I think 'Dilly Ding DIlly Dong, Raneiri's catchphrase will be in the Oxford English Dictionary next year. I will tweet it with each Conservative victory this week. And will Facebook the video ofLeicester team celebrations if Zac wins.
I do hope that Hodge does not challenge Corbyn, as she is Jewish. It would merely add fuel to the general perception that Jews and Zionist sympathisers are currently trying to knife the Labour leadership and lead to an increase in anti-Semitism. However deplorable their views, the witch hunt against Labour representatives expressing anti-Semitic opinions will back-fire on the Jewish community as a whole, particularly if this brings down the Labour leadership. The malevolent Guido Fawkes is doing the Jews no favours.
SO posted an interesting poll yesterday which said that only 4% of Labour voters might be prejudiced against a Jewish leader. That compared with 18% for UKIP and somewhere around 8% for Conservatives. I doubt very much that a Jewish leader will make a scrap of difference. I suspect if it had been a Gypsy leader the Tory numbers would be hitting the high 50's
Both main parties have had Jewish leaders in the recent past, of course.
Thatcher had a number of prominent Jews in her cabinets - Lawson, Joseph, Brittan all spring to mind - I don't recall it being a problem for many people, although I was quite young then
Yes it was - it was (somewhat inaccurately) labelled as a cabinet of old Estonians rather than Etonians (unlike the current bunch of toffs),
Not in any circle I frequented it wasn't. Nor in the media. Your views are genuinely repulsive. I have not read the like for some time.
I think it was a joke by Harold Macmillan.
Not a joke, a wry observation. There's a difference. This is worth a read:
Thatcher did a great deal to change perceptions of Jews and judaism inside the Conservative party. It's probably one of the reasons why the hard left has been so willing to embrace anti-semtism.
I do hope that Hodge does not challenge Corbyn, as she is Jewish. It would merely add fuel to the general perception that Jews and Zionist sympathisers are currently trying to knife the Labour leadership and lead to an increase in anti-Semitism. However deplorable their views, the witch hunt against Labour representatives expressing anti-Semitic opinions will back-fire on the Jewish community as a whole, particularly if this brings down the Labour leadership. The malevolent Guido Fawkes is doing the Jews no favours.
I am sorry but I do not understand how will it backfire on the Jewish Community as a whole
They will get the blame and it will be held against them long-term, just like the behaviour of Judeo-Bolshevists did in the defeated Central Powers in 1918-9. It is best for Jews if they stay out of controversial areas of public life, such as politics and big business.
Saying certain groups should avoid prominent controversial positions of public life or else their wider community will suffer is without question, whatever your justification or insistence no doubt that you wish it werent so but that's life, extremely odious,
Sadly I don't believe that is a spoof comment, particular with posters I respected talking about others being Mossad operatives using a term Google directs to what appeared to be a neo nazi ish version of Wikipedia.
I think I'll call it quits for the day, or possibly week, that comment, even as no surprise in the last few days, has just broken me with its offensiveness,
This is so exciting Jack - even more than the final 30 minutes at Turf Moor last night
Indeed so Mike ....
I considered delaying publication by 24 hours to enable you to restore your usual equilibrium and masterful sangfroid but in wider interests of PB I finally decided to hit the presses as usual ....
I saw something else yesterday from Remain saying it wouldn't be £4300, but something like £1800. Now we could be seeing misspeaking or a change in strategy. Either way - it's most peculiar after the Dresden style doom bombing by StrongerIn so far.
Obviously the 100,000 figure is bullshit. They forgot to net off the tens of thousands of extra civil servants and legal experts we'd need to hire to rewrite the minutiae of our lawbook and renegotiate trade agreements from scratch.
British jobs for British lawyers paid for by British taxpayers.
Dunnit make you proud?
It doesn't really matter what it costs at the end of the day, does it? We'll finally be free to wear our special union jack underpants every day like we always used to before the evil fascist EUrocrats banned us.
I'm tired of the anti semitic accusations and defences now but I will say:
How do those apples taste Roger and (some) labour supporters?
You've thrown around racist accusations like confetti, now you're on the receiving end, fairly or not. Be careful in the future of labelling people, what goes around comes around.
I am not sure Jews fit the left wing idea of a minority anyway. They are white, have generally integrated into British society, and are as affluent as society in general. While they have a different religion, many wear it lightly and some are secular. Their status as Western Europe's scapegoats and general whipping boys up to 1945 can be ignored by those with little respect for history. I wouldn't be surprised if some left-wing activists see them as no more than an hereditary, affluent clique who can be hated, rather like Tories.
And add that general *like Tories* wink wink to the deep dislike many Muslims have for Jews - it's a toxic mix.
I don't believe Muslims do have a deep dislike for Jews any more than Jews have a deep dislike for Muslims. Both see themselves as minorities and there has always been solidarity among minorites. It's just a guess but I'd be surprised if the labour party doesn't have more jewish members than all other parties put together. The Jews have always been champions of the oppressed. Witness apartheid South Africa.
More utter tripe from Rodger.
I have worked extensively in the Middle East and had 2 passports because to attempt to enter another Middle East country with an Israeli stamp in your passport resulted in serious issues.. Don't even consider trying to enter Saudi. There is a visceral hatred even if you can't see it all the way from your posh pad in France.
"I don't believe Muslims do have a deep dislike for Jews."
As with any subjective opinion, it could be right and it could be wrong. My subjective opinion is the opposite. I can only go on the people I meet and Muslims tend to be easier to recognise.
I assume that most people in your profession are gay but that's based on very few contacts.
I believe there is polling on this (the Muslim question, I mean) so I'm sure some of our more erudite contributors can enlighten us.
This daodao is a bit of a rum un..Total fruitcake..
I wonder if he is a Labour sockpuppet. "This is what an antisemite looks like. Nothing to do with us."
A Mossad agent provocateur - Mark Senior was alleging that last night...
Indeed, that claim of Mossad agents infesting and posting on PB had to be the height of tinfoilery . I think Cyclefree was even outed as a potential Mossad sleeper last night.
This is so exciting Jack - even more than the final 30 minutes at Turf Moor last night
Congratulations to Burnley on promotion. Been there done that. Who knows what the future might hold for next season!
5000/1 would put even a certain bet for Obama in the shade!
My bet on Leicester was a little late. I only got a pound ew at 3000/1 ;-)
Congrats by the way. Leicester's success is a great sporting achievement. How many new borns in Leicester will be names Jamie or Cladio or Wes? (My sons are names Michael Thomas and Andrew Michael Thomas after Mickey Thomas's expliots for The Arse in 1989. The wife didn't fancy the name Anthony Adam or David with Seaman as middle names!)
I do hope that Hodge does not challenge Corbyn, as she is Jewish. It would merely add fuel to the general perception that Jews and Zionist sympathisers are currently trying to knife the Labour leadership and lead to an increase in anti-Semitism. However deplorable their views, the witch hunt against Labour representatives expressing anti-Semitic opinions will back-fire on the Jewish community as a whole, particularly if this brings down the Labour leadership. The malevolent Guido Fawkes is doing the Jews no favours.
I am sorry but I do not understand how will it backfire on the Jewish Community as a whole
They will get the blame and it will be held against them long-term, just like the behaviour of Judeo-Bolshevists did in the defeated Central Powers in 1918-9. It is best for Jews if they stay out of controversial areas of public life, such as politics and big business.
Saying certain groups should avoid prominent controversial positions of public life or else their wider community will suffer is without question, whatever your justification or insistence no doubt that you wish it werent so but that's life, extremely odious,
Sadly I don't believe that is a spoof comment, particular with posters I respected talking about others being Mossad operatives using a term Google directs to what appeared to be a neo nazi ish version of Wikipedia.
I think I'll call it quits for the day, or possibly week, that comment, even as no surprise in the last few days, has just broken me with its offensiveness,
Do stay - when I saw you mentioning metapedia - I didn't know what it was, but having seen conservapedia or somesuch - I did wonder.
I've noticed in recent days the tone from Remain has altered, both on here and elsewhere. The sneering from Meeks and Nabavi along with goading from TSE has disappeared. Not sure why and it may be that other events have taken over but for sure this isn't going the way the way they foresaw.
Wheeling out Blair cannot be a positive, he seems determined to have his say but I'm sure he's a busted flush, a vote loser.
I've noticed in recent days the tone from Remain has altered, both on here and elsewhere. The sneering from Meeks and Nabavi along with goading from TSE has disappeared. Not sure why and it may be that other events have taken over but for sure this isn't going the way the way they foresaw.
Wheeling out Blair cannot be a positive, he seems determined to have his say but I'm sure he's a busted flush, a vote loser.
A 3 times election winner is never a loser, he could help with centrist voters and undecideds
I've noticed in recent days the tone from Remain has altered, both on here and elsewhere. The sneering from Meeks and Nabavi along with goading from TSE has disappeared. Not sure why and it may be that other events have taken over but for sure this isn't going the way the way they foresaw.
Wheeling out Blair cannot be a positive, he seems determined to have his say but I'm sure he's a busted flush, a vote loser.
..... and introducing another interfering, post his sell by date former POTUS isn't going to help REMAIN's cause either.
This daodao is a bit of a rum un..Total fruitcake..
I wonder if he is a Labour sockpuppet. "This is what an antisemite looks like. Nothing to do with us."
A Mossad agent provocateur - Mark Senior was alleging that last night...
Indeed, that claim of Mossad agents infesting and posting on PB had to be the height of tinfoilery . I think Cyclefree was even outed as a potential Mossad sleeper last night.
It's the outer fringe of David Ickery. Given Mr Senior isn't known for his sense of humour - I just looked on as others hoped he was joking... alas not.
I do hope that Hodge does not challenge Corbyn, as she is Jewish. It would merely add fuel to the general perception that Jews and Zionist sympathisers are currently trying to knife the Labour leadership and lead to an increase in anti-Semitism. However deplorable their views, the witch hunt against Labour representatives expressing anti-Semitic opinions will back-fire on the Jewish community as a whole, particularly if this brings down the Labour leadership. The malevolent Guido Fawkes is doing the Jews no favours.
I am sorry but I do not understand how will it backfire on the Jewish Community as a whole
They will get the blame and it will be held against them long-term, just like the behaviour of Judeo-Bolshevists did in the defeated Central Powers in 1918-9. It is best for Jews if they stay out of controversial areas of public life, such as politics and big business.
Substitute "blacks" or "Muslims" or "women" in that last sentence and see if you can work out just how offensive and repulsive it is.
I've noticed in recent days the tone from Remain has altered, both on here and elsewhere. The sneering from Meeks and Nabavi along with goading from TSE has disappeared. Not sure why and it may be that other events have taken over but for sure this isn't going the way the way they foresaw.
Wheeling out Blair cannot be a positive, he seems determined to have his say but I'm sure he's a busted flush, a vote loser.
..... and introducing another interfering, post his sell by date former POTUS isn't going to help REMAIN's cause either.
I do hope that Hodge does not challenge Corbyn, as she is Jewish. It would merely add fuel to the general perception that Jews and Zionist sympathisers are currently trying to knife the Labour leadership and lead to an increase in anti-Semitism. However deplorable their views, the witch hunt against Labour representatives expressing anti-Semitic opinions will back-fire on the Jewish community as a whole, particularly if this brings down the Labour leadership. The malevolent Guido Fawkes is doing the Jews no favours.
I am sorry but I do not understand how will it backfire on the Jewish Community as a whole
They will get the blame and it will be held against them long-term, just like the behaviour of Judeo-Bolshevists did in the defeated Central Powers in 1918-9. It is best for Jews if they stay out of controversial areas of public life, such as politics and big business.
Substitute "blacks" or "Muslims" or "women" in that last sentence and see if you can work out just how offensive and repulsive it is.
I've noticed in recent days the tone from Remain has altered, both on here and elsewhere. The sneering from Meeks and Nabavi along with goading from TSE has disappeared. Not sure why and it may be that other events have taken over but for sure this isn't going the way the way they foresaw.
Wheeling out Blair cannot be a positive, he seems determined to have his say but I'm sure he's a busted flush, a vote loser.
..... and introducing another interfering, post his sell by date former POTUS isn't going to help REMAIN's cause either.
I've noticed in recent days the tone from Remain has altered, both on here and elsewhere. The sneering from Meeks and Nabavi along with goading from TSE has disappeared. Not sure why and it may be that other events have taken over but for sure this isn't going the way the way they foresaw.
Wheeling out Blair cannot be a positive, he seems determined to have his say but I'm sure he's a busted flush, a vote loser.
..... and introducing another interfering, post his sell by date former POTUS isn't going to help REMAIN's cause either.
Labour has secretly suspended 50 of its members over anti-Semitic and racist comments as officials struggle to cope with the crisis engulfing the party.
Senior sources reveal that Labour's compliance unit has been swamped by the influx of hard-left supporters following Jeremy Corbyn's election.
The suspensions that have been made public so far are said to be just the tip of the iceberg.
"I don't believe Muslims do have a deep dislike for Jews."
As with any subjective opinion, it could be right and it could be wrong. My subjective opinion is the opposite. I can only go on the people I meet and Muslims tend to be easier to recognise.
I assume that most people in your profession are gay but that's based on very few contacts.
I believe there is polling on this (the Muslim question, I mean) so I'm sure some of our more erudite contributors can enlighten us.
More gays than average and more Jews and I suppose less Muslims. .
I do hope that Hodge does not challenge Corbyn, as she is Jewish. It would merely add fuel to the general perception that Jews and Zionist sympathisers are currently trying to knife the Labour leadership and lead to an increase in anti-Semitism. However deplorable their views, the witch hunt against Labour representatives expressing anti-Semitic opinions will back-fire on the Jewish community as a whole, particularly if this brings down the Labour leadership. The malevolent Guido Fawkes is doing the Jews no favours.
I am sorry but I do not understand how will it backfire on the Jewish Community as a whole
They will get the blame and it will be held against them long-term, just like the behaviour of Judeo-Bolshevists did in the defeated Central Powers in 1918-9. It is best for Jews if they stay out of controversial areas of public life, such as politics and big business.
Substitute "blacks" or "Muslims" or "women" in that last sentence and see if you can work out just how offensive and repulsive it is.
My word, Jews should stay out of big business? Without Jews lots of big businesses wouldn't be big.
Hey fellow travellers in Labour lets lay your cards on the table, all that shouting racist at Ukip, was it all just a diversionary tactic?
I'm tired of the anti semitic accusations and defences now but I will say:
How do those apples taste Roger and (some) labour supporters?
You've thrown around racist accusations like confetti, now you're on the receiving end, fairly or not. Be careful in the future of labelling people, what goes around comes around.
It seems a little like the way Labour trashed the conservatives for decades in Scotland. Equating them with virtually sub human scum. Their tarnishing of the brand Tory was so overwhelming and so successful, that when Labour shared a platform with the Conservatives to remain in the Union, they essentially contaminated their own brand with all the poison they themselves had spent years administering.
It is on some levels extraordinary to watch some people, who in other circumstances see racism everywhere, an overused cliché, but many acted like Witchfinder Generals. There was no institution, no organisation, nothing that a group of white people could do that they could not see racism in. But now when they actually have some slapping them in the face, it's move along, nothing to see.
I saw something else yesterday from Remain saying it wouldn't be £4300, but something like £1800. Now we could be seeing misspeaking or a change in strategy. Either way - it's most peculiar after the Dresden style doom bombing by StrongerIn so far.
Well Miliband has claimed that BREXIT would destroy the earth - which just leaves the solar system, galaxy and universe, so one assumes they must be running out of ammunition.
I've noticed in recent days the tone from Remain has altered, both on here and elsewhere. The sneering from Meeks and Nabavi along with goading from TSE has disappeared. Not sure why and it may be that other events have taken over but for sure this isn't going the way the way they foresaw.
Wheeling out Blair cannot be a positive, he seems determined to have his say but I'm sure he's a busted flush, a vote loser.
..... and introducing another interfering, post his sell by date former POTUS isn't going to help REMAIN's cause either.
Albeit husband of the likely next POTUS
Have you seen/heard Bill Clinton speaking lately ....... oh dearie me!
"I don't believe Muslims do have a deep dislike for Jews."
As with any subjective opinion, it could be right and it could be wrong. My subjective opinion is the opposite. I can only go on the people I meet and Muslims tend to be easier to recognise.
I assume that most people in your profession are gay but that's based on very few contacts.
I believe there is polling on this (the Muslim question, I mean) so I'm sure some of our more erudite contributors can enlighten us.
More gays than average and more Jews and I suppose less Muslims. .
When you say "more gays than average", what's the average?
I am not sure Jews fit the left wing idea of a minority anyway. They are white, have generally integrated into British society, and are as affluent as society in general. While they have a different religion, many wear it lightly and some are secular. Their status as Western Europe's scapegoats and general whipping boys up to 1945 can be ignored by those with little respect for history. I wouldn't be surprised if some left-wing activists see them as no more than an hereditary, affluent clique who can be hated, rather like Tories.
And add that general *like Tories* wink wink to the deep dislike many Muslims have for Jews - it's a toxic mix.
I don't believe Muslims do have a deep dislike for Jews any more than Jews have a deep dislike for Muslims. Both see themselves as minorities and there has always been solidarity among minorites. It's just a guess but I'd be surprised if the labour party doesn't have more jewish members than all other parties put together. The Jews have always been champions of the oppressed. Witness apartheid South Africa.
More utter tripe from Rodger.
I have worked extensively in the Middle East and had 2 passports because to attempt to enter another Middle East country with an Israeli stamp in your passport resulted in serious issues.. Don't even consider trying to enter Saudi. There is a visceral hatred even if you can't see it all the way from your posh pad in France.
Stick to what you know which is the Oscars.
There is a visceral hatred of Israel and Jews in the Middle East. It's stupid to claim otherwise. I thought that the Israelis didn't stamp passports if asked not to.
If Trump gets elected he is going to try to ban Moslems from entering the US, of course.
We'll see if the Hodge coup comes to pass. It's a febrile time and many rumours no doubt. If it does though some of us on PB who have been saying for months that there will be an attempt this summer and have bet on labour leadership candidates accordingly will be relieved.
It's not as if Labour didn't have any previous embarrassing incidents of anti-semitism to give them a chance to get their house in order. This was over 10 years ago now:
While Tony's presence on the Remain bench can only help us, I suspect Bill remains popular in the UK, and that he is more likely to strike a chord with voters than Obama. Fortunately, I think he'll probably be busy with his wife's election campaign.
I'm tired of the anti semitic accusations and defences now but I will say:
How do those apples taste Roger and (some) labour supporters?
You've thrown around racist accusations like confetti, now you're on the receiving end, fairly or not. Be careful in the future of labelling people, what goes around comes around.
It seems a little like the way Labour trashed the conservatives for decades in Scotland. Equating them with virtually sub human scum. Their tarnishing of the brand Tory was so overwhelming and so successful, that when Labour shared a platform with the Conservatives to remain in the Union, they essentially contaminated their own brand with all the poison they themselves had spent years administering.
It is on some levels extraordinary to watch some people, who in other circumstances see racism everywhere, an overused cliché, but many acted like Witchfinder Generals. There was no institution, no organisation, nothing that a group of white people could do that they could not see racism in. But now when they actually have some slapping them in the face, it's move along, nothing to see.
It's not as if Labour didn't have any previous embarrassing incidents of anti-semitism to give them a chance to get their house in order. This was over 10 years ago now:
I do hope that Hodge does not challenge Corbyn, as she is Jewish. It would merely add fuel to the general perception that Jews and Zionist sympathisers are currently trying to knife the Labour leadership and lead to an increase in anti-Semitism. However deplorable their views, the witch hunt against Labour representatives expressing anti-Semitic opinions will back-fire on the Jewish community as a whole, particularly if this brings down the Labour leadership. The malevolent Guido Fawkes is doing the Jews no favours.
So let me get this right - the Jews in Labour should just STFU so as not to give any credence to Labour being anti-semitic?
Yes, so as not to get the blame, not for the reason you have stated.
Why would they get the blame for something they hadn't done and weren't responsible for unless Labour was institutionally anti-Semitic? I think your comment just adds to all we already know about the answer to that.
Re the Labour plotters - how do they cope with the quite likely scenario where Jeremy is reelected?
Therein lies the problem. You could argue that 'sending a message' is a legitimate aim but what message would it send if Corbyn wins? This isn't like Thatcher vs Meyer, when all Meyer votes were clearly proxies for anti-Thatcher (not least because of the Tory system; genuine contenders could enter at a later stage if needs be, unlike with Labour), and the aim was mainly to send a shot across her bows anyway.
If Corbyn were to win again, the centre would find it very difficult to mount a second challenge later in the parliament: Labour would have seen Corbyn in action and endorsed him. A second challenge would also likely take place at the time of parliamentary re/selections.
Which is why Hodge isn't an adequate challenger. If someone is to go up against Corbyn, it has to be a heavyweight; someone who could do the job and is capable of looking prime ministerial. Put simply, someone who the membership can see is clearly a better bet for 2020. They need to persuade Yvette.
They need to persuade Chukka, who is not tainted with defeat. But not yet I think.
Oh noes! He's such an empty suit. Far too metrosexual. Whenever I see him on TV, I find him so shallow and rather elitist. There must be someone better than him. And he's already dumped his leadership ambitions once before. Who'd come out for him without worrying he'd do it again?
In the land of the blind the one eyed man is King... (are we still allowed to say this or is it discrimination against disabilities? It is so confusing these days.) Who else? Saint Andy? Again?
Somewhere is a moment in time when all of Andy Burnham's various takes on multiple opinions coalesce into a credible politician. If only he could find that moment and trap it in amber...
I think OGH summed him up well as a wally whose main achievement was to be a scouser who'd gone to Cambridge.
While Tony's presence on the Remain bench can only help us, I suspect Bill remains popular in the UK, and that he is more likely to strike a chord with voters than Obama. Fortunately, I think he'll probably be busy with his wife's re-election campaign.
I don't believe Clinton is popular with people most likely to vote.
This is going to be all about who feels most strongly, there's no doubt the younger generation favour Remain but in the middle of the Euros they'll be too busy painting their faces and watching football in pubs.
PBers discuss nuances, the wider electorate is far more simplistic.
While Tony's presence on the Remain bench can only help us, I suspect Bill remains popular in the UK, and that he is more likely to strike a chord with voters than Obama. Fortunately, I think he'll probably be busy with his wife's re-election campaign.
I don't believe Clinton is popular with people most likely to vote.
This is going to be all about who feels most strongly, there's no doubt the younger generation favour Remain but in the middle of the Euros they'll be too busy painting their faces and watching football in pubs.
PBers discuss nuances, the wider electorate is far more simplistic.
I'm less optimistic than you. Having looked through the history of EU referendums across Europe, they typically get turnouts in-line or above general elections. Why should we be any different?
While Tony's presence on the Remain bench can only help us, I suspect Bill remains popular in the UK, and that he is more likely to strike a chord with voters than Obama. Fortunately, I think he'll probably be busy with his wife's election campaign.
Bill Clinton popular in the UK? Really? Last time I checked he was a laughing stock amongst those who remember him in office, and most of the under 30s don't know who he is.
Personally, I can't wait for his punch to my solar plexus.
While Tony's presence on the Remain bench can only help us, I suspect Bill remains popular in the UK, and that he is more likely to strike a chord with voters than Obama. Fortunately, I think he'll probably be busy with his wife's re-election campaign.
I don't believe Clinton is popular with people most likely to vote.
This is going to be all about who feels most strongly, there's no doubt the younger generation favour Remain but in the middle of the Euros they'll be too busy painting their faces and watching football in pubs.
PBers discuss nuances, the wider electorate is far more simplistic.
I saw something else yesterday from Remain saying it wouldn't be £4300, but something like £1800. Now we could be seeing misspeaking or a change in strategy. Either way - it's most peculiar after the Dresden style doom bombing by StrongerIn so far.
Well Miliband has claimed that BREXIT would destroy the earth - which just leaves the solar system, galaxy and universe, so one assumes they must be running out of ammunition.
Brexit will obviously lead to the universe suffering gravitational collapse and disappearing within its own event horizon. As shown by the dummy variables in the Treasury trade equations.
This daodao is a bit of a rum un..Total fruitcake..
I wonder if he is a Labour sockpuppet. "This is what an antisemite looks like. Nothing to do with us."
A Mossad agent provocateur - Mark Senior was alleging that last night...
Indeed, that claim of Mossad agents infesting and posting on PB had to be the height of tinfoilery . I think Cyclefree was even outed as a potential Mossad sleeper last night.
I do hope that Hodge does not challenge Corbyn, as she is Jewish. It would merely add fuel to the general perception that Jews and Zionist sympathisers are currently trying to knife the Labour leadership and lead to an increase in anti-Semitism. However deplorable their views, the witch hunt against Labour representatives expressing anti-Semitic opinions will back-fire on the Jewish community as a whole, particularly if this brings down the Labour leadership. The malevolent Guido Fawkes is doing the Jews no favours.
SO posted an interesting poll yesterday which said that only 4% of Labour voters might be prejudiced against a Jewish leader. That compared with 18% for UKIP and somewhere around 8% for Conservatives. I doubt very much that a Jewish leader will make a scrap of difference. I suspect if it had been a Gypsy leader the Tory numbers would be hitting the high 50's
Both main parties have had Jewish leaders in the recent past, of course.
Thatcher had a number of prominent Jews in her cabinets - Lawson, Joseph, Brittan all spring to mind - I don't recall it being a problem for many people, although I was quite young then
“that it includes more Old Estonians than it does Old Etonians.”
While Tony's presence on the Remain bench can only help us, I suspect Bill remains popular in the UK, and that he is more likely to strike a chord with voters than Obama. Fortunately, I think he'll probably be busy with his wife's re-election campaign.
I don't believe Clinton is popular with people most likely to vote.
This is going to be all about who feels most strongly, there's no doubt the younger generation favour Remain but in the middle of the Euros they'll be too busy painting their faces and watching football in pubs.
PBers discuss nuances, the wider electorate is far more simplistic.
I'm less optimistic than you. Having looked through the history of EU referendums across Europe, they typically get turnouts in-line or above general elections. Why should we be any different?
I think there is a fundamental difference between the UK and other Eu populations, in that the British are not that engaged with the project - at least not as engaged as our politicians.
I could easily see this being a very low turnout. Already the newspapers are moving on, the public aren't talking about it much. There's been a bit of heat, not much light, and both sides are seen as fairly dishonest (even by some of those who support either principle fully).
While Tony's presence on the Remain bench can only help us, I suspect Bill remains popular in the UK, and that he is more likely to strike a chord with voters than Obama. Fortunately, I think he'll probably be busy with his wife's re-election campaign.
I don't believe Clinton is popular with people most likely to vote.
This is going to be all about who feels most strongly, there's no doubt the younger generation favour Remain but in the middle of the Euros they'll be too busy painting their faces and watching football in pubs.
PBers discuss nuances, the wider electorate is far more simplistic.
I'm less optimistic than you. Having looked through the history of EU referendums across Europe, they typically get turnouts in-line or above general elections. Why should we be any different?
How many referenda has the UK held? I don't mean Scotland, that was an issue that absorbed a country in a way the EU simply doesn't.
Look, its all about opinions, this place is by no means representative. I'm a politically engaged person, virtually nobody talks about the EU in everyday life.
I'll stick by my long held belief that Leave wins on a low turnout, yes its wishful thinking but time and again I've explained why.
I am not sure Jews fit the left wing idea of a minority anyway. They are white, have generally integrated into British society, and are as affluent as society in general. While they have a different religion, many wear it lightly and some are secular. Their status as Western Europe's scapegoats and general whipping boys up to 1945 can be ignored by those with little respect for history. I wouldn't be surprised if some left-wing activists see them as no more than an hereditary, affluent clique who can be hated, rather like Tories.
And add that general *like Tories* wink wink to the deep dislike many Muslims have for Jews - it's a toxic mix.
I don't believe Muslims do have a deep dislike for Jews any more than Jews have a deep dislike for Muslims. Both see themselves as minorities and there has always been solidarity among minorites. It's just a guess but I'd be surprised if the labour party doesn't have more jewish members than all other parties put together. The Jews have always been champions of the oppressed. Witness apartheid South Africa.
More utter tripe from Rodger.
I have worked extensively in the Middle East and had 2 passports because to attempt to enter another Middle East country with an Israeli stamp in your passport resulted in serious issues.. Don't even consider trying to enter Saudi. There is a visceral hatred even if you can't see it all the way from your posh pad in France.
Stick to what you know which is the Oscars.
I too have worked often in the Middle East and it's true that if you have 'Israel' stamped on your passport you will need a second passport for the arab countries. But I have never encountered prejudice or seen it.
But these conversations are silly. Who are we talking about? I work with educated people. Far more of the people I work with in the Arab countries are tri lingual and have a university education than would be the case in the UK.
As for Saudi it's another planet. I have shot hair commercials there where you are not permitted to see face and hair in the same shot. When you see the face the hair has to be covered. The set can't have windows which can in any way form a cross or have any pictures on the wall other than script. But the people are very nice. Much nicer than the American clients who are employing me
Re the Labour plotters - how do they cope with the quite likely scenario where Jeremy is reelected?
Therein lies the problem. You could argue that 'sending a message' is a legitimate aim but what message would it send if Corbyn wins? This isn't like Thatcher vs Meyer, when all Meyer votes were clearly proxies for anti-Thatcher (not least because of the Tory system; genuine contenders could enter at a later stage if needs be, unlike with Labour), and the aim was mainly to send a shot across her bows anyway.
If Corbyn were to win again, the centre would find it very difficult to mount a second challenge later in the parliament: Labour would have seen Corbyn in action and endorsed him. A second challenge would also likely take place at the time of parliamentary re/selections.
Which is why Hodge isn't an adequate challenger. If someone is to go up against Corbyn, it has to be a heavyweight; someone who could do the job and is capable of looking prime ministerial. Put simply, someone who the membership can see is clearly a better bet for 2020. They need to persuade Yvette.
They need to persuade Chukka, who is not tainted with defeat. But not yet I think.
Oh noes! He's such an empty suit. Far too metrosexual. Whenever I see him on TV, I find him so shallow and rather elitist. There must be someone better than him. And he's already dumped his leadership ambitions once before. Who'd come out for him without worrying he'd do it again?
In the land of the blind the one eyed man is King... (are we still allowed to say this or is it discrimination against disabilities? It is so confusing these days.) Who else? Saint Andy? Again?
Somewhere is a moment in time when all of Andy Burnham's various takes on multiple opinions coalesce into a credible politician. If only he could find that moment and trap it in amber...
In fairness he did with the Hillsborough Inquiry and I give him a lot of respect for that. But he has struggled to achieve that focus anywhere else.
But the Hillsborough Inquiry was effectively a model of how to run a backbench single-issue campaign. That he happened to be on the front-bench at the time is beside the point. His success there says little about whether he has the skills needed as a leader.
We'll see if the Hodge coup comes to pass. It's a febrile time and many rumours no doubt. If it does though some of us on PB who have been saying for months that there will be an attempt this summer and have bet on labour leadership candidates accordingly will be relieved.
Both our main parties are wallowing in a cesspit of civil war, hate, recrimination and feelings of betrayal. In both cases 100% caused by the leader. One is a total see you next Thursday who at heart simply does not love his country and has allowed it to morph into unthinking support for an ideology that will ultimately ruin us. The other is....exactly the same.
"I don't believe Muslims do have a deep dislike for Jews."
As with any subjective opinion, it could be right and it could be wrong. My subjective opinion is the opposite. I can only go on the people I meet and Muslims tend to be easier to recognise.
I assume that most people in your profession are gay but that's based on very few contacts.
I believe there is polling on this (the Muslim question, I mean) so I'm sure some of our more erudite contributors can enlighten us.
The recent poll gives a clue. It does not paint the pretty picture Roger would like to think. And there is the Mehdi Hasan article from a couple of years back,of course.
This daodao is a bit of a rum un..Total fruitcake..
I wonder if he is a Labour sockpuppet. "This is what an antisemite looks like. Nothing to do with us."
A Mossad agent provocateur - Mark Senior was alleging that last night...
Indeed, that claim of Mossad agents infesting and posting on PB had to be the height of tinfoilery . I think Cyclefree was even outed as a potential Mossad sleeper last night.
I wasn't sure if Mark Senior was joking.
To be fair, people are also regularly accused of being Kremlin trolls.
This is so exciting Jack - even more than the final 30 minutes at Turf Moor last night
Congratulations to Burnley on promotion. Been there done that. Who knows what the future might hold for next season!
Shocking news reaching me from the south Midlands ....
Reports are starting to filter through that following Gary Linicker's pledge earlier in the season that should Leicester FC win the Premier league that he would present MotD in his underpants that Mike Smithson has indicated that in the unlikely event of Burnley FC gaining more points than Aston Villa did this year he will pose naked on the front page of the Bedford Pig Breeders and Liberal Agricultural Workers Focus Newsletter for May 2017.
The Home Secretary has been alerted and the Head of the Obscene Publications Squad has cancelled his holiday in Rochdale .....
Mr. Putney, it must be said, a terrible start to the season is traditional (although this year's has been a bit worse than I would've expected, even so).
London non-anedote alert: Mood in camps - Tories, realistic. Labour, nervous. Turnout forecast sub 35%. London has more Labour supporters, but will Tories have more voters? Come on you blues. Is Zac 5,000 to 1 like Leicester? I'm off for my first of 4 two hour sessions. Cheerio now.
This daodao is a bit of a rum un..Total fruitcake..
I wonder if he is a Labour sockpuppet. "This is what an antisemite looks like. Nothing to do with us."
A Mossad agent provocateur - Mark Senior was alleging that last night...
Indeed, that claim of Mossad agents infesting and posting on PB had to be the height of tinfoilery . I think Cyclefree was even outed as a potential Mossad sleeper last night.
I wasn't sure if Mark Senior was joking.
To be fair, people are also regularly accused of being Kremlin trolls.
I'd have thought Mossad agents would have bigger fish to fry than posting on blogs.
off topic - one thing that continues to please me about modern, PL football, and I appreciate that there is still work to be done on the terraces, is the sheer, natural inclusiveness and colourblindness of black, brown, white, asian footballers.
Looking at any goal celebration, and in particular the Leicester players celebrating at Jamie Vardy's in Melton, one has to be encouraged.
There's more than a touch of work to be done in the stands. Look at the faces at a Bradford, Blackburn or Leicester (rugby or soccer) match. If the grounds are selling out you can argue that it doesn't matter but that's not a claim that Bradford could ever make.
Not far off, actually. 18000 attendances regularly this season.
But the culture among Bradford's Pakistani/Bangladeshi community is that it's 'not cool' to support minor teams. nearly all who have an interest in football (which is many) support the top premiership teams who are competing for a Europa League place. Interestingly, they do tend to support England - presumably because England is reasonably successful whereas Pakistan and Bangladesh aren't (that national-level support doesn't cross over into cricket, for example).
Either Remain's strategy is working, in which case the addition of Blair and Clinton is I suppose at least neutral, or it isn't, in which case this looks a like a mistake.
It's also becoming embarrassingly obvious how much the US is terrified of losing its EU mole.
"I don't believe Muslims do have a deep dislike for Jews."
As with any subjective opinion, it could be right and it could be wrong. My subjective opinion is the opposite. I can only go on the people I meet and Muslims tend to be easier to recognise.
I assume that most people in your profession are gay but that's based on very few contacts.
I believe there is polling on this (the Muslim question, I mean) so I'm sure some of our more erudite contributors can enlighten us.
More gays than average and more Jews and I suppose less Muslims. .
When you say "more gays than average", what's the average?
Hair and make up about 50%. Male stylists about the same. I think that's above average?
"I don't believe Muslims do have a deep dislike for Jews."
As with any subjective opinion, it could be right and it could be wrong. My subjective opinion is the opposite. I can only go on the people I meet and Muslims tend to be easier to recognise.
I assume that most people in your profession are gay but that's based on very few contacts.
I believe there is polling on this (the Muslim question, I mean) so I'm sure some of our more erudite contributors can enlighten us.
The recent poll gives a clue. It does not paint the pretty picture Roger would like to think. And there is the Mehdi Hasan article from a couple of years back,of course.
ICM, which interviewed 1,081 adults between April and May last year, for a Channel 4 programme called ‘What British Muslims Really Think,’ aired on Wednesday night.
More than a quarter of respondents felt Jews were “responsible for most wars,” compared to a 6 per cent average across the UK, while almost four in ten felt Jews had “too much control over global affairs,” compared to a ten per cent average over the general population.
The survey also showed that 34 per cent “don’t care what happens to anyone but their own kind,” with the same percentage thought that “Jews still talk too much about the Holocaust”.
Elsewhere, three in ten said Jews “think they are better than other people” and four in ten said Jews were “more loyal to Israel than to the UK,” but only a quarter felt anti-Semitism was a problem in the UK.
This daodao is a bit of a rum un..Total fruitcake..
I wonder if he is a Labour sockpuppet. "This is what an antisemite looks like. Nothing to do with us."
A Mossad agent provocateur - Mark Senior was alleging that last night...
Indeed, that claim of Mossad agents infesting and posting on PB had to be the height of tinfoilery . I think Cyclefree was even outed as a potential Mossad sleeper last night.
I'm quite proud of that, I must say.
From being half-dead in a NY hospital to Mossad agent in less than a week. It's not my normal sort of week.
Indeed. Usual sanctimonious bollocks. In advertising, you have to be believable. This isn't.
Wasnt there a perception issue identified though, that the Labour Party was seen as the party of the workshy and the undeserving? If so, it could be said that kind of campaign was counter productive... “Across all the groups, the Labour party was felt to be on the side of the undeserving – particularly the workshy and immigrants. In the six years I’ve been doing focus groups with these people, I have never seen Labour’s core brand strength of being ‘for ordinary people’ more recessive. It is part of the party’s past, but a very long way from being part of the present reputation of the party.
“Participants really struggled to dredge up any positive associations with the Labour party. The most commonly mentioned strength was investment in schools and hospitals and there was also a sense that Labour kept interest rates low for a long time. But the abiding sense was that the last 13 years have ended in failure, with the country plunging downhill.”
He wrote: “There were three very clear threshold issues where the party needs to show a new approach: immigration, benefits and the deficit/economy.”
Either Remain's strategy is working, in which case the addition of Blair and Clinton is I suppose at least neutral, or it isn't, in which case this looks a like a mistake.
It's also becoming embarrassingly obvious how much the US is terrified of losing its EU mole.
Is Blair really neutral nowadays... Once upon he might have been, now for many he is going to be seen as a pig in the trough...
I've noticed in recent days the tone from Remain has altered, both on here and elsewhere. The sneering from Meeks and Nabavi along with goading from TSE has disappeared. Not sure why and it may be that other events have taken over but for sure this isn't going the way the way they foresaw.
Wheeling out Blair cannot be a positive, he seems determined to have his say but I'm sure he's a busted flush, a vote loser.
..... and introducing another interfering, post his sell by date former POTUS isn't going to help REMAIN's cause either.
Mentioning Clinton, has anyone determined what his title will be after January next year, or will he - confusingly - continue to be referred to as 'Mr President Clinton', as is customary for ex-POTUS's?
@ScottyNational: Populism: The SNP aren't just populists willing to jump on any old bandwagon to link it to independence , says Leicester fan Nicola Sturgeon
I do hope that Hodge does not challenge Corbyn, as she is Jewish. It would merely add fuel to the general perception that Jews and Zionist sympathisers are currently trying to knife the Labour leadership and lead to an increase in anti-Semitism. However deplorable their views, the witch hunt against Labour representatives expressing anti-Semitic opinions will back-fire on the Jewish community as a whole, particularly if this brings down the Labour leadership. The malevolent Guido Fawkes is doing the Jews no favours.
SO posted an interesting poll yesterday which said that only 4% of Labour voters might be prejudiced against a Jewish leader. That compared with 18% for UKIP and somewhere around 8% for Conservatives. I doubt very much that a Jewish leader will make a scrap of difference. I suspect if it had been a Gypsy leader the Tory numbers would be hitting the high 50's
Both main parties have had Jewish leaders in the recent past, of course.
Thatcher had a number of prominent Jews in her cabinets - Lawson, Joseph, Brittan all spring to mind - I don't recall it being a problem for many people, although I was quite young then
Yes it was - it was (somewhat inaccurately) labelled as a cabinet of old Estonians rather than Etonians (unlike the current bunch of toffs),
Not in any circle I frequented it wasn't. Nor in the media. Your views are genuinely repulsive. I have not read the like for some time.
I think it was a joke by Harold Macmillan.
Not a joke, a wry observation. There's a difference. This is worth a read:
Thatcher did a great deal to change perceptions of Jews and judaism inside the Conservative party. It's probably one of the reasons why the hard left has been so willing to embrace anti-semtism.
Thanks - fascinating article and possibly one of the sources of some of the Left's anti-semitetism today.
Hmm I've still not received my PCC postal vote. Seems I'll be disenfranchised for this election - not too fussed as it is the PCC, but I ticked the box for postal votes at all future and I'd quite fancy a vote on Brexit or Remain...
I'm tired of the anti semitic accusations and defences now but I will say:
How do those apples taste Roger and (some) labour supporters?
You've thrown around racist accusations like confetti, now you're on the receiving end, fairly or not. Be careful in the future of labelling people, what goes around comes around.
It seems a little like the way Labour trashed the conservatives for decades in Scotland. Equating them with virtually sub human scum. Their tarnishing of the brand Tory was so overwhelming and so successful, that when Labour shared a platform with the Conservatives to remain in the Union, they essentially contaminated their own brand with all the poison they themselves had spent years administering.
It is on some levels extraordinary to watch some people, who in other circumstances see racism everywhere, an overused cliché, but many acted like Witchfinder Generals. There was no institution, no organisation, nothing that a group of white people could do that they could not see racism in. But now when they actually have some slapping them in the face, it's move along, nothing to see.
In the Left's mind racism is something you accuse others of being not something you can be accused of.
This is the mess you get into when you have no principles but simply work on the basis of identity. That is why the Left find it so difficult to accept that Muslims (their current favourite "oppressed" group) might themselves be both victims of prejudice and a source of it. Labour are not against racism, whoever the racist is - the principled position. They are against it only if it can be shown to be by a group they dislike and against a group they like. Hence the current hysterical attempts to downplay the anti-Semitism displayed by some of their own members and supporters and shameful attempts to blame the victims for their fate.
As I posted last night: I don't think Labour has been in the vanguard of the fight against racism for some time now. It seems to me that it uses racism as a sword to prevent scrutiny of an odious moral and cultural relativity which has led it to fail to make any distinction between the liberal and the illiberal, between the democratic and the authoritarian, between the egalitarian and the misogynist, between the socially liberal and the homophobe, between the tolerant and the intolerant.
Labour has been living on the moral credit of its past fights against intolerance. Recent events have shown how empty that bank of moral credit now really is.
When Labour return to believing in and sticking with values rather than arbitrary identities then they will be the morally decent party they once were.
I've noticed in recent days the tone from Remain has altered, both on here and elsewhere. The sneering from Meeks and Nabavi along with goading from TSE has disappeared. Not sure why and it may be that other events have taken over but for sure this isn't going the way the way they foresaw.
Wheeling out Blair cannot be a positive, he seems determined to have his say but I'm sure he's a busted flush, a vote loser.
..... and introducing another interfering, post his sell by date former POTUS isn't going to help REMAIN's cause either.
Mentioning Clinton, has anyone determined what his title will be after January next year, or will he - confusingly - continue to be referred to as 'Mr President Clinton', as is customary for ex-POTUS's?
Comments
Do stalking horses work under Labour's rulebook?
Incidentally, I was browsing elsewhere and this quote came along, which seemed rather apt:
"Henry Brooks Adams: Politics... have always been the systematic organization of hatreds."
http://www.jidaily.com/8f340
Thatcher did a great deal to change perceptions of Jews and judaism inside the Conservative party. It's probably one of the reasons why the hard left has been so willing to embrace anti-semtism.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/02/the-eu-exists-only-to-become-a-superstate-britain-has-no-place-i/
Sadly I don't believe that is a spoof comment, particular with posters I respected talking about others being Mossad operatives using a term Google directs to what appeared to be a neo nazi ish version of Wikipedia.
I think I'll call it quits for the day, or possibly week, that comment, even as no surprise in the last few days, has just broken me with its offensiveness,
I considered delaying publication by 24 hours to enable you to restore your usual equilibrium and masterful sangfroid but in wider interests of PB I finally decided to hit the presses as usual ....
British jobs for British lawyers paid for by British taxpayers.
Dunnit make you proud?
It doesn't really matter what it costs at the end of the day, does it? We'll finally be free to wear our special union jack underpants every day like we always used to before the evil fascist EUrocrats banned us.
It'll be great. Trust nigel & that boris bloke.
/s
How do those apples taste Roger and (some) labour supporters?
You've thrown around racist accusations like confetti, now you're on the receiving end, fairly or not. Be careful in the future of labelling people, what goes around comes around.
I have worked extensively in the Middle East and had 2 passports because to attempt to enter another Middle East country with an Israeli stamp in your passport resulted in serious issues.. Don't even consider trying to enter Saudi. There is a visceral hatred even if you can't see it all the way from your posh pad in France.
Stick to what you know which is the Oscars.
"I don't believe Muslims do have a deep dislike for Jews."
As with any subjective opinion, it could be right and it could be wrong. My subjective opinion is the opposite. I can only go on the people I meet and Muslims tend to be easier to recognise.
I assume that most people in your profession are gay but that's based on very few contacts.
I believe there is polling on this (the Muslim question, I mean) so I'm sure some of our more erudite contributors can enlighten us.
"Trust me.. I'm a straight kinda guy... if we leave the EU, we'll be 45 minutes away from disaster."
Wheeling out Blair cannot be a positive, he seems determined to have his say but I'm sure he's a busted flush, a vote loser.
She has already flounced about Zac at least twice this year.
Is someone getting desperate to divert attention?
Hey fellow travellers in Labour lets lay your cards on the table, all that shouting racist at Ukip, was it all just a diversionary tactic?
It is on some levels extraordinary to watch some people, who in other circumstances see racism everywhere, an overused cliché, but many acted like Witchfinder Generals. There was no institution, no organisation, nothing that a group of white people could do that they could not see racism in. But now when they actually have some slapping them in the face, it's move along, nothing to see.
If Trump gets elected he is going to try to ban Moslems from entering the US, of course.
We'll see if the Hodge coup comes to pass. It's a febrile time and many rumours no doubt. If it does though some of us on PB who have been saying for months that there will be an attempt this summer and have bet on labour leadership candidates accordingly will be relieved.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4223091.stm
22 minutes 22 seconds
This is going to be all about who feels most strongly, there's no doubt the younger generation favour Remain but in the middle of the Euros they'll be too busy painting their faces and watching football in pubs.
PBers discuss nuances, the wider electorate is far more simplistic.
Roger Cohen, a columnist on The New York Times, recently described how at one US university, the Holocaust had been dismissed as “white-on-white crime”. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/labour-is-sneering-at-the-wrong-kind-of-voter-t7jbsb6kp
Personally, I can't wait for his punch to my solar plexus.
I could easily see this being a very low turnout. Already the newspapers are moving on, the public aren't talking about it much. There's been a bit of heat, not much light, and both sides are seen as fairly dishonest (even by some of those who support either principle fully).
Look, its all about opinions, this place is by no means representative. I'm a politically engaged person, virtually nobody talks about the EU in everyday life.
I'll stick by my long held belief that Leave wins on a low turnout, yes its wishful thinking but time and again I've explained why.
But these conversations are silly. Who are we talking about? I work with educated people. Far more of the people I work with in the Arab countries are tri lingual and have a university education than would be the case in the UK.
As for Saudi it's another planet. I have shot hair commercials there where you are not permitted to see face and hair in the same shot. When you see the face the hair has to be covered. The set can't have windows which can in any way form a cross or have any pictures on the wall other than script. But the people are very nice. Much nicer than the American clients who are employing me
The recent poll gives a clue. It does not paint the pretty picture Roger would like to think. And there is the Mehdi Hasan article from a couple of years back,of course.
Reports are starting to filter through that following Gary Linicker's pledge earlier in the season that should Leicester FC win the Premier league that he would present MotD in his underpants that Mike Smithson has indicated that in the unlikely event of Burnley FC gaining more points than Aston Villa did this year he will pose naked on the front page of the Bedford Pig Breeders and Liberal Agricultural Workers Focus Newsletter for May 2017.
The Home Secretary has been alerted and the Head of the Obscene Publications Squad has cancelled his holiday in Rochdale .....
But the culture among Bradford's Pakistani/Bangladeshi community is that it's 'not cool' to support minor teams. nearly all who have an interest in football (which is many) support the top premiership teams who are competing for a Europa League place. Interestingly, they do tend to support England - presumably because England is reasonably successful whereas Pakistan and Bangladesh aren't (that national-level support doesn't cross over into cricket, for example).
http://order-order.com/2016/05/03/labour-mp-anti-semitism-nasty-smear-distorted-exaggerated-wholly-untrue/
The breaking news is that WIND is reporting to JNN the contents of the latest ARSE4EU Referendum Projection :
Should The United Kingdom Remain A Member Of The European Union Or Leave The European Union?
Remain 54% (-1.5) .. Leave 46% (+1.5)
Turnout Projection 62% (-0.5)
Changes from 29th April.
......................................................................
WIND - Whimsical Independent News Division
JNN - Jacobite News Network
ARSE4EU - Anonymous Random Selection of Electors For European Union
It's also becoming embarrassingly obvious how much the US is terrified of losing its EU mole.
From being half-dead in a NY hospital to Mossad agent in less than a week. It's not my normal sort of week.
“Across all the groups, the Labour party was felt to be on the side of the undeserving – particularly the workshy and immigrants. In the six years I’ve been doing focus groups with these people, I have never seen Labour’s core brand strength of being ‘for ordinary people’ more recessive. It is part of the party’s past, but a very long way from being part of the present reputation of the party.
“Participants really struggled to dredge up any positive associations with the Labour party. The most commonly mentioned strength was investment in schools and hospitals and there was also a sense that Labour kept interest rates low for a long time. But the abiding sense was that the last 13 years have ended in failure, with the country plunging downhill.”
He wrote: “There were three very clear threshold issues where the party needs to show a new approach: immigration, benefits and the deficit/economy.”
This is the mess you get into when you have no principles but simply work on the basis of identity. That is why the Left find it so difficult to accept that Muslims (their current favourite "oppressed" group) might themselves be both victims of prejudice and a source of it. Labour are not against racism, whoever the racist is - the principled position. They are against it only if it can be shown to be by a group they dislike and against a group they like. Hence the current hysterical attempts to downplay the anti-Semitism displayed by some of their own members and supporters and shameful attempts to blame the victims for their fate.
As I posted last night: I don't think Labour has been in the vanguard of the fight against racism for some time now. It seems to me that it uses racism as a sword to prevent scrutiny of an odious moral and cultural relativity which has led it to fail to make any distinction between the liberal and the illiberal, between the democratic and the authoritarian, between the egalitarian and the misogynist, between the socially liberal and the homophobe, between the tolerant and the intolerant.
Labour has been living on the moral credit of its past fights against intolerance. Recent events have shown how empty that bank of moral credit now really is.
When Labour return to believing in and sticking with values rather than arbitrary identities then they will be the morally decent party they once were.
Apparently all postal votes for EU Ref will be received by 3rd June.
The First Lord?