The motion, which has been approved for a debate and vote by the Manchester Students' Union, reads:
“David Cameron and his right-wing Tory government were elected by a minority of the electorate." “Zero students voted Tory. Therefore, we must make a stand against this undemocratic regime by banning David Cameron and his Tory government from our democratic Students’ Union and our university campus." “In addition, David Cameron has continually violated the safe-space policy by implementing changes to junior doctors’ NHS contracts." “We must fight back against the Tory steamroller which is destroying the NHS and destroying the United Kingdom and also Europe." “Also David Cameron has said we should vote to stay in the EU, but he is a Tory and therefore he must have lied."
Will someone be opposing the motion, or is that not allowed under "safe space" policies ?
Still ploughing through the earlier comments so this may have been answered ...
But can anyone tell me why junior doctors contracts have anything to do with "safe spaces", please?
And what did these university undergrads do with their brains after they qualified to get there? Leave them at school?
Also would like to see a source for the claim "zero students voted Tory". I doubt that, I know many students who voted Tory in 2001 when I was towards the end of my first year of my undergrad course and suspect the proportion voting Tory was higher last year (given it was an election winning year).
Richard N. was telling us not half an hour ago its what the people wanted, or as I rephrased it, what the people (collectively) least disliked. Having read that article I think we overlooked turnout, its not going to be good enough being the least hated if that translates into voter apathy.
The reason the sceptical parties are winning on the continent is the passion of their followers, it's all very well saying the Blairite/Cameron positioning is the safe, "nice" option, but it boring the public to death, the politically engaged are going to start looking for more exciting flags to gather under, and the less engaged are going to snooze in front of the TV on polling night, feeling that there is no point in voting because they get the same whoever they vote for.
The other thing is that once the Meeks tendency get their way, and we are in the EU for another 5-10 years (maybe), the real elephant in the room will come back to haunt the government with a vengeance. 76% of people want less immigration, and 52% want a lot less, and immigration has been the top concern for voters for the last 8-10 months. Going to be interesting when the EU start trying to force massed migrants on the country by central fiat.
"Compared with claims made by the Vote Leave and Grassroots Out campaigns and the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign, the government leaflet comes much closer to the gold standard of reporting opinions that are both true and fair. It is much less misleading than the Vote Leave rebuttal, which prioritises length over accuracy...
The fact that the vast majority of the outrage surrounds the leaflet’s publication rather than its content, gives a good indication that the claims made are generally true and largely fair. "
"Compared with claims made by the Vote Leave and Grassroots Out campaigns and the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign, the government leaflet comes much closer to the gold standard of reporting opinions that are both true and fair. It is much less misleading than the Vote Leave rebuttal, which prioritises length over accuracy...
The fact that the vast majority of the outrage surrounds the leaflet’s publication rather than its content, gives a good indication that the claims made are generally true and largely fair. "
The FT....
That is like asking The Economist to review Hillary's campaign material.
"Compared with claims made by the Vote Leave and Grassroots Out campaigns and the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign, the government leaflet comes much closer to the gold standard of reporting opinions that are both true and fair. It is much less misleading than the Vote Leave rebuttal, which prioritises length over accuracy...
The fact that the vast majority of the outrage surrounds the leaflet’s publication rather than its content, gives a good indication that the claims made are generally true and largely fair. "
If you were going to price up "Which constituency has the biggest out vote", you wouldn't have the Isle of Wight too long.
This petition map is a great resource for seeing Eurosceptic areas.
Not really - or at least remember that the population sample in each region does vary. Also of course those who have signed it so far are probably NOT the C2DEs working from 9.00 - 5.00. They are coming online now and if the BBC announce it on the news (fair play to them if they have) then we would expect a post 6.00pm spike.
"Compared with claims made by the Vote Leave and Grassroots Out campaigns and the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign, the government leaflet comes much closer to the gold standard of reporting opinions that are both true and fair. It is much less misleading than the Vote Leave rebuttal, which prioritises length over accuracy...
The fact that the vast majority of the outrage surrounds the leaflet’s publication rather than its content, gives a good indication that the claims made are generally true and largely fair. "
And the FT is impartial in the EU referendum debate, of course.
"Compared with claims made by the Vote Leave and Grassroots Out campaigns and the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign, the government leaflet comes much closer to the gold standard of reporting opinions that are both true and fair. It is much less misleading than the Vote Leave rebuttal, which prioritises length over accuracy...
The fact that the vast majority of the outrage surrounds the leaflet’s publication rather than its content, gives a good indication that the claims made are generally true and largely fair. "
that's about as surprising as a murder in MIdsomer.
Hilarious that after rubbishing every e-petition that comes along and claiming you get 100,000 people to sign anything online certain posters are jumping up and down like excited schoolgirls now that there is a petition that they agree with, breathlesslessly telling us when it has gone up another 1000. Priceless!
If you were going to price up "Which constituency has the biggest out vote", you wouldn't have the Isle of Wight too long.
This petition map is a great resource for seeing Eurosceptic areas.
I wonder which region will have the highest Out vote.
I think either the West Midlands or East Midlands.
I can't have the West Midlands for that, more likely to be East of England or the South East I think. I reckon the Southwest may well be more sceptic than the West Midlands.
Well that's four Leaver comments on the FT article, all devoid of any content beyond "pshaw". Any Leaver prepared to do anything other than splutter over their gin and tonic?
Well that's four Leaver comments on the FT article, all devoid of any content beyond "pshaw". Any Leaver prepared to do anything other than splutter over their gin and tonic?
Nothing much to do really - however it is important to look at the quality of the sources of information - a fact that someone seems to be forgetting.
If you were going to price up "Which constituency has the biggest out vote", you wouldn't have the Isle of Wight too long.
This petition map is a great resource for seeing Eurosceptic areas.
I wonder which region will have the highest Out vote.
I think either the West Midlands or East Midlands.
I can't have the West Midlands for that, more likely to be East of England or the South East I think. I reckon the Southwest may well be more sceptic than the West Midlands.
I reckon Yorkshire and the Humber could be the winner.
North Yorkshire heavily Tory.
South Yorkshire (Dore apart) is full of the WWC peasants
Well that's four Leaver comments on the FT article, all devoid of any content beyond "pshaw". Any Leaver prepared to do anything other than splutter over their gin and tonic?
I'm afraid that the FT is part of the sneering metropolitan class and it's analysis should be disregarded. Or something. We should rely on the wisdom of crowds (as brought to you by the Daily Mail and Paul Staines) tweets and petitions (which I'd understood were for fools until today).
Well that's four Leaver comments on the FT article, all devoid of any content beyond "pshaw". Any Leaver prepared to do anything other than splutter over their gin and tonic?
Or prepared to point out the mega porkie in the response by Gisela Stuart as quoted by Plato?
The indignation seems remarkably one-sided. Well that's a surprise.
If you were going to price up "Which constituency has the biggest out vote", you wouldn't have the Isle of Wight too long.
This petition map is a great resource for seeing Eurosceptic areas.
I wonder which region will have the highest Out vote.
I think either the West Midlands or East Midlands.
I can't have the West Midlands for that, more likely to be East of England or the South East I think. I reckon the Southwest may well be more sceptic than the West Midlands.
I reckon Yorkshire and the Humber could be the winner.
North Yorkshire heavily Tory.
South Yorkshire (Dore apart) is full of the WWC peasants
West Yorkshire could go either way
Humberside, maybe.
Sheffield proper will deliver a monolithic remain vote. As will Birmingham - which is mainly why I've ruled West Mids
Well that's four Leaver comments on the FT article, all devoid of any content beyond "pshaw". Any Leaver prepared to do anything other than splutter over their gin and tonic?
What do you actually expect Alistair it was pure clickbait. We happily obliged.
Hilarious that after rubbishing every e-petition that comes along and claiming you get 100,000 people to sign anything online certain posters are jumping up and down like excited schoolgirls now that there is a petition that they agree with, breathlesslessly telling us when it has gone up another 1000. Priceless!
My views on petitions and their signatories have not changed....
BBC is mentioning the petition in their article. Could it reach 100k today?
What's the record for fastest to 100k? This could come close.
If the Leave campaign does have a weakness it's doubts about those who are backing their campaign. It therefore seems an odd decision to cry foul over the Prime Minister's leaflet. No serious seeker after truth is going to be persuaded towards either camp because a government leaflet might seem to give one side an advantage. They might though be reinforced in their belief that leavers are obsessives
Well that's four Leaver comments on the FT article, all devoid of any content beyond "pshaw". Any Leaver prepared to do anything other than splutter over their gin and tonic?
Or prepared to point out the mega porkie in the response by Gisela Stuart as quoted by Plato?
The indignation seems remarkably one-sided. Well that's a surprise.
Mega porkies ? I mean really Richard is that all you have ?
Well that's four Leaver comments on the FT article, all devoid of any content beyond "pshaw". Any Leaver prepared to do anything other than splutter over their gin and tonic?
Or prepared to point out the mega porkie in the response by Gisela Stuart as quoted by Plato?
The indignation seems remarkably one-sided. Well that's a surprise.
Mega porkies ? I mean really Richard is that all you have ?
Well that's four Leaver comments on the FT article, all devoid of any content beyond "pshaw". Any Leaver prepared to do anything other than splutter over their gin and tonic?
Not while there is chance of being patronised and deliberately misunderstood by the loud Remainer tendency.
Well that's four Leaver comments on the FT article, all devoid of any content beyond "pshaw". Any Leaver prepared to do anything other than splutter over their gin and tonic?
Or prepared to point out the mega porkie in the response by Gisela Stuart as quoted by Plato?
The indignation seems remarkably one-sided. Well that's a surprise.
Mega porkies ? I mean really Richard is that all you have ?
Of course not. What else would you like?
I've yet to hear a positive argument as to why we will be better off in say ten years time thatn today by staying in the EU. What does it give us that we can't do better ourselves ?
As a thought experiment, if Leave had been given £9 million to put a leaflet on every doorstep setting out its prospectus, what would have been in its pages?
As a thought experiment, if Leave had been given £9 million to put a leaflet on every doorstep setting out its prospectus, what would have been in its pages?
I wonder the if 9m includes the cost of civil service writers and production?
As a thought experiment, if Leave had been given £9 million to put a leaflet on every doorstep setting out its prospectus, what would have been in its pages?
I wonder the if 9m includes the cost of civil service writers and production?
They spent £500k on the writing/ production for 14 pages, 7 of which are just pictures.
I've yet to hear a positive argument as to why we will be better off in say ten years time thatn today by staying in the EU. What does it give us that we can't do better ourselves ?
Full access to the Single Market, principally. But of course it's hard to give a positive reason for the status quo - all you can do is look at the alternatives, which don't look very attractive.
BBC is mentioning the petition in their article. Could it reach 100k today?
What's the record for fastest to 100k? This could come close.
If the Leave campaign does have a weakness it's doubts about those who are backing their campaign. It therefore seems an odd decision to cry foul over the Prime Minister's leaflet. No serious seeker after truth is going to be persuaded towards either camp because a government leaflet might seem to give one side an advantage. They might though be reinforced in their belief that leavers are obsessives
Comments like that convince me that you're entirely out of touch with the common man Roger.
Since when did anyone ever not vote for a party or individual because some political 'obsessive' had the audacity to canvass them....
As a thought experiment, if Leave had been given £9 million to put a leaflet on every doorstep setting out its prospectus, what would have been in its pages?
You could, presumably, do a fence-sitter's prospectus at rather short notice (my thought experiment).
Well that's four Leaver comments on the FT article, all devoid of any content beyond "pshaw". Any Leaver prepared to do anything other than splutter over their gin and tonic?
Or prepared to point out the mega porkie in the response by Gisela Stuart as quoted by Plato?
The indignation seems remarkably one-sided. Well that's a surprise.
Mega porkies ? I mean really Richard is that all you have ?
Of course not. What else would you like?
I've yet to hear a positive argument as to why we will be better off in say ten years time thatn today by staying in the EU. What does it give us that we can't do better ourselves ?
For me there are never any better arguments than freedom and self determination. There never were and there never will be.
The pamphlet seems to suggest that freedom and democracy amount to not much more than doubt, disruption and uncertainty.
Well that's four Leaver comments on the FT article, all devoid of any content beyond "pshaw". Any Leaver prepared to do anything other than splutter over their gin and tonic?
I'm afraid that the FT is part of the sneering metropolitan class and it's analysis should be disregarded. Or something. We should rely on the wisdom of crowds (as brought to you by the Daily Mail and Paul Staines) tweets and petitions (which I'd understood were for fools until today).
I expect that, within the next 10 years, a leftie will be assassinated by a member of the white working class whom the jury will acquit as a "justifiable homicide". OGH will close this site down, very possibly on police advice.
As a thought experiment, if Leave had been given £9 million to put a leaflet on every doorstep setting out its prospectus, what would have been in its pages?
Makes little odds, by the time Grassroots and UKOut had decided, it would be July or later.
BBC is mentioning the petition in their article. Could it reach 100k today?
What's the record for fastest to 100k? This could come close.
If the Leave campaign does have a weakness it's doubts about those who are backing their campaign. It therefore seems an odd decision to cry foul over the Prime Minister's leaflet. No serious seeker after truth is going to be persuaded towards either camp because a government leaflet might seem to give one side an advantage. They might though be reinforced in their belief that leavers are obsessives
Unlikely.
Hardly anyone will know a "leaver" and the few that do won't have heard them say a lot except a little gentle poking in the direction of leave maybe, or more likely a few leading questions left hanging in the air for people to ponder. People are much more circumspect with their friends than on an largely anonymous online forum.
But just ponder this, the average voter, gets their information from the BBC which is absurdly pro-EU, gets a nice glossy brochure from the PM and listens to his warm words on the TV. According to you they then look at people like Farage who they clearly see, in your world, as an obsessive and a nutter, and yet after all that the latest poll is neck and neck, no wonder the PM doesn't want to play fair, he would lose by some margin. Anyone that claims on the basis of a wafer thin win, after this biased charade, that the British public aren't largely sceptical about the EU will have no credibility at all.
As a thought experiment, if Leave had been given £9 million to put a leaflet on every doorstep setting out its prospectus, what would have been in its pages?
My doorstep received a leaflet today entitled The UK and the European Union: The Facts.
I assumed it was the government issue one, but I doubt if it is.
Quite strong words from the Justice Secretary on the six o'clock news. Gove comes across as quite authoritative when he speaks on this subject so hopefully we'll hear more from him during the campaign proper.
For me there are never any better arguments than freedom and self determination. There never were and there never will be.
At the meeting I chaired a few days ago, the chap who was advocating Leave made exactly that point, using the word 'sovereignty' as the key reason for leaving.
One of our members, who is a barrister, asked a very good question: 'Other than immigration, which particular areas would you cite as those where sovereignty would most make a practical difference?'
Well that's four Leaver comments on the FT article, all devoid of any content beyond "pshaw". Any Leaver prepared to do anything other than splutter over their gin and tonic?
I'm afraid that the FT is part of the sneering metropolitan class and it's analysis should be disregarded. Or something. We should rely on the wisdom of crowds (as brought to you by the Daily Mail and Paul Staines) tweets and petitions (which I'd understood were for fools until today).
I expect that, within the next 10 years, a leftie will be assassinated by a member of the white working class whom the jury will acquit as a "justifiable homicide". OGH will close this site down, very possibly on police advice.
Mr. Urquhart, they were robbed. I would've done it for £100k.
I suspect a few on here would have been happy to do it gratis, especially as it is apparently the governments moral responsibility to provide such propaganda.
"Compared with claims made by the Vote Leave and Grassroots Out campaigns and the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign, the government leaflet comes much closer to the gold standard of reporting opinions that are both true and fair. It is much less misleading than the Vote Leave rebuttal, which prioritises length over accuracy...
The fact that the vast majority of the outrage surrounds the leaflet’s publication rather than its content, gives a good indication that the claims made are generally true and largely fair. "
"Compared with claims made by the Vote Leave and Grassroots Out campaigns and the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign, the government leaflet comes much closer to the gold standard of reporting opinions that are both true and fair. It is much less misleading than the Vote Leave rebuttal, which prioritises length over accuracy...
The fact that the vast majority of the outrage surrounds the leaflet’s publication rather than its content, gives a good indication that the claims made are generally true and largely fair. "
Well that's four Leaver comments on the FT article, all devoid of any content beyond "pshaw". Any Leaver prepared to do anything other than splutter over their gin and tonic?
I'm afraid that the FT is part of the sneering metropolitan class and it's analysis should be disregarded. Or something. We should rely on the wisdom of crowds (as brought to you by the Daily Mail and Paul Staines) tweets and petitions (which I'd understood were for fools until today).
I expect that, within the next 10 years, a leftie will be assassinated by a member of the white working class whom the jury will acquit as a "justifiable homicide". OGH will close this site down, very possibly on police advice.
As a thought experiment, if Leave had been given £9 million to put a leaflet on every doorstep setting out its prospectus, what would have been in its pages?
I've received two Leave leaflets so far. They have concentrated on five key themes:
1) The EU spends £350m of our money each day - contrasted to cuts 2) The impact of immigration and the expectation of Turkey joining; 3) The pressures on public services - nice pictures of smiling NHS nurses 4) Sovereignty - borders, dealing with criminals 5) The right to sack governments we don't want/that fail us.
This whole leaflet business will work for Cameron only if the government is actually popular.
The government trying to persuade people who have a negative opinion about it will probably have the opposite result of the governments intention.
When I suggested that Corbyn should campaign for Remain in solid Tory areas it was more of a joke, because it will push those Tories in the opposite direction. Between the leaftlet and Cameron visiting a University trying to convince students who hate him to vote Remain, it's pretty clear that the Remain campaign has taken my joke too literal.
I've yet to hear a positive argument as to why we will be better off in say ten years time thatn today by staying in the EU. What does it give us that we can't do better ourselves ?
Full access to the Single Market, principally. But of course it's hard to give a positive reason for the status quo - all you can do is look at the alternatives, which don't look very attractive.
we are not looking at the status quo. We are looking at a dynamic organisation which wishes to integrate and which will drag us in its wake.
As for the single market it currently works against many of our industries - mine certainly - nd the areas where we are meant to pick up the slack are stagnating. You haven't actually got a single market but several single markets and some fiefdoms. And that's after 24 years of so called liberalisation.
Comments
This petition map is a great resource for seeing Eurosceptic areas.
The reason the sceptical parties are winning on the continent is the passion of their followers, it's all very well saying the Blairite/Cameron positioning is the safe, "nice" option, but it boring the public to death, the politically engaged are going to start looking for more exciting flags to gather under, and the less engaged are going to snooze in front of the TV on polling night, feeling that there is no point in voting because they get the same whoever they vote for.
The other thing is that once the Meeks tendency get their way, and we are in the EU for another 5-10 years (maybe), the real elephant in the room will come back to haunt the government with a vengeance. 76% of people want less immigration, and 52% want a lot less, and immigration has been the top concern for voters for the last 8-10 months. Going to be interesting when the EU start trying to force massed migrants on the country by central fiat.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b866d24c-fcd3-11e5-b3f6-11d5706b613b.html?ftcamp=published_links/rss/world_uk_politics/feed//product#axzz458FGptnx
Its verdict?
"Compared with claims made by the Vote Leave and Grassroots Out campaigns and the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign, the government leaflet comes much closer to the gold standard of reporting opinions that are both true and fair. It is much less misleading than the Vote Leave rebuttal, which prioritises length over accuracy...
The fact that the vast majority of the outrage surrounds the leaflet’s publication rather than its content, gives a good indication that the claims made are generally true and largely fair. "
I think either the West Midlands or East Midlands.
That is like asking The Economist to review Hillary's campaign material.
+0.3 Electoral Votes to the GOP or something like that.
North Yorkshire heavily Tory.
South Yorkshire (Dore apart) is full of the WWC peasants
West Yorkshire could go either way
Humberside, maybe.
http://thesetupwizard.tumblr.com/tagged/setupwizard/chrono
The indignation seems remarkably one-sided. Well that's a surprise.
Since when did anyone ever not vote for a party or individual because some political 'obsessive' had the audacity to canvass them....
The pamphlet seems to suggest that freedom and democracy amount to not much more than doubt, disruption and uncertainty.
South East 65.5 % (63.1% in 2014 Euros)
East England 65.2% (62.8%)
South West 60.1% (61.2%)
East Mids 59.2% (58.9%)
West Mids 57.5% (55.8%)
Hardly anyone will know a "leaver" and the few that do won't have heard them say a lot except a little gentle poking in the direction of leave maybe, or more likely a few leading questions left hanging in the air for people to ponder. People are much more circumspect with their friends than on an largely anonymous online forum.
But just ponder this, the average voter, gets their information from the BBC which is absurdly pro-EU, gets a nice glossy brochure from the PM and listens to his warm words on the TV. According to you they then look at people like Farage who they clearly see, in your world, as an obsessive and a nutter, and yet after all that the latest poll is neck and neck, no wonder the PM doesn't want to play fair, he would lose by some margin. Anyone that claims on the basis of a wafer thin win, after this biased charade, that the British public aren't largely sceptical about the EU will have no credibility at all.
I assumed it was the government issue one, but I doubt if it is.
One of our members, who is a barrister, asked a very good question: 'Other than immigration, which particular areas would you cite as those where sovereignty would most make a practical difference?'
http://im.ft-static.com/content/images/b2004302-fc8d-11e5-b5f5-070dca6d0a0d.pdf
1) The EU spends £350m of our money each day - contrasted to cuts
2) The impact of immigration and the expectation of Turkey joining;
3) The pressures on public services - nice pictures of smiling NHS nurses
4) Sovereignty - borders, dealing with criminals
5) The right to sack governments we don't want/that fail us.
The government trying to persuade people who have a negative opinion about it will probably have the opposite result of the governments intention.
When I suggested that Corbyn should campaign for Remain in solid Tory areas it was more of a joke, because it will push those Tories in the opposite direction.
Between the leaftlet and Cameron visiting a University trying to convince students who hate him to vote Remain, it's pretty clear that the Remain campaign has taken my joke too literal.
As for the single market it currently works against many of our industries - mine certainly - nd the areas where we are meant to pick up the slack are stagnating. You haven't actually got a single market but several single markets and some fiefdoms. And that's after 24 years of so called liberalisation.