@Sean_F This is a referendum on a question of policy, not a general election. The government is entitled (indeed morally obliged) to have a view on the subject in its capacity as a government. It is entitled (and arguably morally obliged) to communicate that view on a question of policy to the public.
If the government is morally obliged to spend over £9 million on one leaflet alone in order to get its message across, why is the opposition capped at spending £7 million?
It's a bit reminiscent of the electoral process in a typical African republic.
After the referendum Dave's going to change his title from Prime Minister to
"His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Doctor David Cameron, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the Eurosceptics in Great Britain in General and the Tory Party in Particular"
Assuming Remain does win. Do you really think that there will never be another eurosceptic Tory in the party ever again? I admire your optimism fellah.
If remain win, and if it is more than a 5-10% win, then eurosceptics will have to ask themselves what matters most: their euroscepticism or the continuation of a Conservative government. For the one thing Labour will want most is further chaos and infighting within the government.
Likewise, if leave win, and if it is more than a 5-10% win, then the remainers will have to accept that we are leaving the EU. Although the arguments about what the vote meant will just be starting, and give them an opportunity to somewhat shape things the way they want. After all, the leave groups may well be at each other's throats after a leave vote.
The really interesting situation will occur if there is 5-10% in the result either way. And that seems to be the way things are heading.
I will take huge pleasure in pointing out every time they do something that Remain claimed would not or could not happen due to Dave's amazing negotiating skills.
Conversely, in the event of Leave I shall take no pleasure in pointing out that I was right if the economy tanks badly. I hope I'm wrong on that.
Odd no one has been mentioning these quotes from the electoral commission.
But the Electoral Commission this afternoon backed the Government's decision to send out the leaflet, noting in a statement:
"The regulated spending period for the referendum comes into force on 15 April. The commission recommended after the referendum on Scottish independence that during the regulated period, the Government should conduct no taxpayer funded advertising activity.
"However, parliament decided not to put any legal restrictions on government activity until 28 days before the poll, which are the same rules that were in place for other recent referendums."
They were noted.
They say the government is following the rules.
Not exactly a shocker since the government wrote them.
How it is seen in the country might be a different matter entirely. When committed europhiles like OKC of this parish feel the propaganda brochure might be ill advised, there is a chance that you are not seeing the whole picture.
According to today's YouGov poll of 4,000 people, 40% thought it was fair that the Government was sending out a leaflet supporting REMAIN, and 46% thought it was unfair.
I suspect all the 40% were REMAINERS, though some of the 46% may also be REMAINERS with a sense of fair play.
Obviously the truly fair thing to have done is had a booklet where both sides got equal space to explain their side of the argument. It probably would have been a hell of a lot cheaper than each side then doing loads of different mail shots etc.
I wonder how farmers will end up voting? Many of them absolutely detest the EU, and understandably so given the nightmare of the Rural Payments Agency plus all the regulatory stuff they have to put up with. But on the other hand there's no guarantee they'll get so much loot if we do leave the CAP; it would obviously depend on what view UK governments took in the future.
I think it's unlikely that a British government would abolish agricultural subsidies entirely, but also unlikely that they would want to maintain subsidies at their current level.
I will take huge pleasure in pointing out every time they do something that Remain claimed would not or could not happen due to Dave's amazing negotiating skills.
Conversely, in the event of Leave I shall take no pleasure in pointing out that I was right if the economy tanks badly. I hope I'm wrong on that.
The economy is going to tank anyway. We're overdue a recession. Markets remain way overpriced. Debt is still unsustainably high in far , far too many countries. If (as is still likely) we get a Remain and a recession will you say it was Remain that caused it?
"Business as usual in Brussels despite Dutch ‘no’ to Ukraine
The Dutch ‘no’ vote in Wednesday’s referendum on the EU’s treaty with Ukraine will have no impact on the implementation of the agreement, a spokesman for the European Commission told broadcaster Nos. The treaty has already been signed and unanimously accepted by all EU leaders and the Dutch ‘no’ will not change that, the spokesman is quoted as saying."
Not surprised by this, once a treaty is ratified by all, a referendum after the event is worthless.
A bit like UK referendums?
I mean this is the second referendum on leaving our continental partners.
Oooh, I've got an idea for a thread.
Were Leave to lose, they must stop acting like the EU/Scot Nats, and respect the will of the people.
The more you try to fix the referendum the less likely that becomes.
I for one will certainly not stop campaigning against the EU if Remain win. I will take huge pleasure in pointing out every time they do something that Remain claimed would not or could not happen due to Dave's amazing negotiating skills.
Dave's "deal" is worse than that between Darth Vader and Lando Calrissian in "The Empire Strikes Back"!
We are just praying Junker doesn't alter it further.....
@Sean_F This is a referendum on a question of policy, not a general election. The government is entitled (indeed morally obliged) to have a view on the subject in its capacity as a government. It is entitled (and arguably morally obliged) to communicate that view on a question of policy to the public.
If the government is morally obliged to spend over £9 million on one leaflet alone in order to get its message across, why is the opposition capped at spending £7 million?
It's a bit reminiscent of the electoral process in a typical African republic.
After the referendum Dave's going to change his title from Prime Minister to
"His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Doctor David Cameron, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the Eurosceptics in Great Britain in General and the Tory Party in Particular"
"Business as usual in Brussels despite Dutch ‘no’ to Ukraine
The Dutch ‘no’ vote in Wednesday’s referendum on the EU’s treaty with Ukraine will have no impact on the implementation of the agreement, a spokesman for the European Commission told broadcaster Nos. The treaty has already been signed and unanimously accepted by all EU leaders and the Dutch ‘no’ will not change that, the spokesman is quoted as saying."
Not surprised by this, once a treaty is ratified by all, a referendum after the event is worthless.
A bit like UK referendums?
I mean this is the second referendum on leaving our continental partners.
Oooh, I've got an idea for a thread.
Were Leave to lose, they must stop acting like the EU/Scot Nats, and respect the will of the people.
The more you try to fix the referendum the less likely that becomes.
I for one will certainly not stop campaigning against the EU if Remain win. I will take huge pleasure in pointing out every time they do something that Remain claimed would not or could not happen due to Dave's amazing negotiating skills.
That's fine, that's democracy, and were UKIP to put in their manifesto for 2020, were they to win a majority they would take us out of the EU, sans referendum, I would be fine with that too.
If there Tories don't elect a strong leaver with some credibility, and possibly even then, those voters that were wavering with the kippers last time around and came back because they trusted Dave on the referendum are GONE. The Tory party has next to no credibility with the half the country that want to leave, I wonder how it plans to get it back in time for 2020. Ten years ago I was a party member, now I might as well vote Lib Dem, I would get the same policies, and at least they are honest about it.
What isn't clear is that before or after the money has been laundered? I mean, I know for a fact that places like Panama used to do a roaring trade in washing the drug cartels money. If it then ends up with HSBC Panama and then transferred to HSBC UK and property brought etc, technically what they say is true, but isn't necessarily because the UK is a soft touch etc, it is more to do with a stable economy and fantastic housing market (from investors point of view).
@Sean_F This is a referendum on a question of policy, not a general election. The government is entitled (indeed morally obliged) to have a view on the subject in its capacity as a government. It is entitled (and arguably morally obliged) to communicate that view on a question of policy to the public.
If the government is morally obliged to spend over £9 million on one leaflet alone in order to get its message across, why is the opposition capped at spending £7 million?
It's a bit reminiscent of the electoral process in a typical African republic.
After the referendum Dave's going to change his title from Prime Minister to
"His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Doctor David Cameron, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the Eurosceptics in Great Britain in General and the Tory Party in Particular"
Assuming Remain does win. Do you really think that there will never be another eurosceptic Tory in the party ever again? I admire your optimism fellah.
If Remain wins, Euroscepticism will be alive and kicking in the Tory Party for years and decades to come, however the more sensible Eurosceptics like Michael Gove know if they hold another referendum on it, and lose, it really will settle UK membership of the EU for a generation.
Plus, Gove also knows, wanting to re-run the referendum so soon again will give succour to the SNP.
If the EU wasn't a moving target I would be inclined to agree with you. As the EU creaks ever forward, new opportunities will present themselves.
My prediction is Remain will win in 2016, but we will vote to Leave by 2025 as the EU becomes dominated by the Eurozone block and the de facto option is either Leave or Join the Eurozone.
I wonder how farmers will end up voting? Many of them absolutely detest the EU, and understandably so given the nightmare of the Rural Payments Agency plus all the regulatory stuff they have to put up with. But on the other hand there's no guarantee they'll get so much loot if we do leave the CAP; it would obviously depend on what view UK governments took in the future.
@Sean_F This is a referendum on a question of policy, not a general election. The government is entitled (indeed morally obliged) to have a view on the subject in its capacity as a government. It is entitled (and arguably morally obliged) to communicate that view on a question of policy to the public.
If the government is morally obliged to spend over £9 million on one leaflet alone in order to get its message across, why is the opposition capped at spending £7 million?
It's a bit reminiscent of the electoral process in a typical African republic.
After the referendum Dave's going to change his title from Prime Minister to
"His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Doctor David Cameron, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the Eurosceptics in Great Britain in General and the Tory Party in Particular"
And King of Scotland.
King of the Northern Powerhouse. Osborne would be demoted to a mere Viceroy.
I wonder how farmers will end up voting? Many of them absolutely detest the EU, and understandably so given the nightmare of the Rural Payments Agency plus all the regulatory stuff they have to put up with. But on the other hand there's no guarantee they'll get so much loot if we do leave the CAP; it would obviously depend on what view UK governments took in the future.
I think there is a clear distinction between attitudes of the big corporate farmers and those of the smaller family farmers. I don't believe that either under CAP or any system after Brexit we should be using Government money to support large agribusinesses. I think those businesses are aware of this and know that they have a better chance of retaining the grants if they stay in the EU. The smaller farmers I know are pretty much like the smaller businesses, far more affected by the one size fits all business regulation that comes out of Brussels and so more likely to be in favour of leaving as long as they get some assurance that there will be some form of Governmental support for them after Brexit akin to that provided by CAP.
"Business as usual in Brussels despite Dutch ‘no’ to Ukraine
The Dutch ‘no’ vote in Wednesday’s referendum on the EU’s treaty with Ukraine will have no impact on the implementation of the agreement, a spokesman for the European Commission told broadcaster Nos. The treaty has already been signed and unanimously accepted by all EU leaders and the Dutch ‘no’ will not change that, the spokesman is quoted as saying."
Not surprised by this, once a treaty is ratified by all, a referendum after the event is worthless.
A bit like UK referendums?
I mean this is the second referendum on leaving our continental partners.
Oooh, I've got an idea for a thread.
Were Leave to lose, they must stop acting like the EU/Scot Nats, and respect the will of the people.
The more you try to fix the referendum the less likely that becomes.
I for one will certainly not stop campaigning against the EU if Remain win. I will take huge pleasure in pointing out every time they do something that Remain claimed would not or could not happen due to Dave's amazing negotiating skills.
That's fine, that's democracy, and were UKIP to put in their manifesto for 2020, were they to win a majority they would take us out of the EU, sans referendum, I would be fine with that too.
If there Tories don't elect a strong leaver with some credibility, and possibly even then, those voters that were wavering with the kippers last time around and came back because they trusted Dave on the referendum are GONE. The Tory party has next to no credibility with the half the country that want to leave, I wonder how it plans to get it back in time for 2020. Ten years ago I was a party member, now I might as well vote Lib Dem, I would get the same policies, and at least they are honest about it.
This is why I'm so cynical about Boris' stance on the issue.
Interesting tactic. Ask the kids to convince the oldies to go with the Establishment.
Not sure that one's a winner.
More likely the opposite! I mean if you are young, naïve and don't have the facts and you meet someone who does, has a lot of experience and a better education, who is likely to change their mind?
"Business as usual in Brussels despite Dutch ‘no’ to Ukraine
The Dutch ‘no’ vote in Wednesday’s referendum on the EU’s treaty with Ukraine will have no impact on the implementation of the agreement, a spokesman for the European Commission told broadcaster Nos. The treaty has already been signed and unanimously accepted by all EU leaders and the Dutch ‘no’ will not change that, the spokesman is quoted as saying."
Not surprised by this, once a treaty is ratified by all, a referendum after the event is worthless.
A bit like UK referendums?
I mean this is the second referendum on leaving our continental partners.
Oooh, I've got an idea for a thread.
Were Leave to lose, they must stop acting like the EU/Scot Nats, and respect the will of the people.
The more you try to fix the referendum the less likely that becomes.
I for one will certainly not stop campaigning against the EU if Remain win. I will take huge pleasure in pointing out every time they do something that Remain claimed would not or could not happen due to Dave's amazing negotiating skills.
That's fine, that's democracy, and were UKIP to put in their manifesto for 2020, were they to win a majority they would take us out of the EU, sans referendum, I would be fine with that too.
If there Tories don't elect a strong leaver with some credibility, and possibly even then, those voters that were wavering with the kippers last time around and came back because they trusted Dave on the referendum are GONE. The Tory party has next to no credibility with the half the country that want to leave, I wonder how it plans to get it back in time for 2020. Ten years ago I was a party member, now I might as well vote Lib Dem, I would get the same policies, and at least they are honest about it.
you would probably get the same policies if you voted labour too.
And that's the problem with the west right now. You can vote who you want, what you end up with is a kind of insipid social democracy.
The economy is going to tank anyway. We're overdue a recession. Markets remain way overpriced. Debt is still unsustainably high in far , far too many countries. If (as is still likely) we get a Remain and a recession will you say it was Remain that caused it?
No, obviously not, although there could be an effect through the rise in sterling which would follow a Remain result.
If it's a Leave, then it should be reasonably clear whether any economic downturn is concentrated in the UK and Europe, rather than being a problem of the world as a whole.
I wonder how farmers will end up voting? Many of them absolutely detest the EU, and understandably so given the nightmare of the Rural Payments Agency plus all the regulatory stuff they have to put up with. But on the other hand there's no guarantee they'll get so much loot if we do leave the CAP; it would obviously depend on what view UK governments took in the future.
@Sean_F This is a referendum on a question of policy, not a general election. The government is entitled (indeed morally obliged) to have a view on the subject in its capacity as a government. It is entitled (and arguably morally obliged) to communicate that view on a question of policy to the public.
If the government is morally obliged to spend over £9 million on one leaflet alone in order to get its message across, why is the opposition capped at spending £7 million?
It's a bit reminiscent of the electoral process in a typical African republic.
After the referendum Dave's going to change his title from Prime Minister to
"His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Doctor David Cameron, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the Eurosceptics in Great Britain in General and the Tory Party in Particular"
Assuming Remain does win. Do you really think that there will never be another eurosceptic Tory in the party ever again? I admire your optimism fellah.
If Remain wins, Euroscepticism will be alive and kicking in the Tory Party for years and decades to come, however the more sensible Eurosceptics like Michael Gove know if they hold another referendum on it, and lose, it really will settle UK membership of the EU for a generation.
Plus, Gove also knows, wanting to re-run the referendum so soon again will give succour to the SNP.
If the EU wasn't a moving target I would be inclined to agree with you. As the EU creaks ever forward, new opportunities will present themselves.
My prediction is Remain will win in 2016, but we will vote to Leave by 2025 as the EU becomes dominated by the Eurozone block and the de facto option is either Leave or Join the Eurozone.
That is what I have been saying for a while. If the Remain camp proposed to remain in order to go all the way, join the Euro, the whole nine yards it would make sense, but tearing the Tory party apart to put off the evil hour for 5-10 years and in passing make the separation more traumatic seems idiotic.
I will take huge pleasure in pointing out every time they do something that Remain claimed would not or could not happen due to Dave's amazing negotiating skills.
Conversely, in the event of Leave I shall take no pleasure in pointing out that I was right if the economy tanks badly. I hope I'm wrong on that.
@Sean_F This is a referendum on a question of policy, not a general election. The government is entitled (indeed morally obliged) to have a view on the subject in its capacity as a government. It is entitled (and arguably morally obliged) to communicate that view on a question of policy to the public.
If the government is morally obliged to spend over £9 million on one leaflet alone in order to get its message across, why is the opposition capped at spending £7 million?
It's a bit reminiscent of the electoral process in a typical African republic.
After the referendum Dave's going to change his title from Prime Minister to
"His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Doctor David Cameron, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the Eurosceptics in Great Britain in General and the Tory Party in Particular"
And King of Scotland.
King of the Northern Powerhouse. Osborne would be demoted to a mere Viceroy.
"Business as usual in Brussels despite Dutch ‘no’ to Ukraine
The Dutch ‘no’ vote in Wednesday’s referendum on the EU’s treaty with Ukraine will have no impact on the implementation of the agreement, a spokesman for the European Commission told broadcaster Nos. The treaty has already been signed and unanimously accepted by all EU leaders and the Dutch ‘no’ will not change that, the spokesman is quoted as saying."
Not surprised by this, once a treaty is ratified by all, a referendum after the event is worthless.
A bit like UK referendums?
I mean this is the second referendum on leaving our continental partners.
Oooh, I've got an idea for a thread.
Were Leave to lose, they must stop acting like the EU/Scot Nats, and respect the will of the people.
The more you try to fix the referendum the less likely that becomes.
I for one will certainly not stop campaigning against the EU if Remain win. I will take huge pleasure in pointing out every time they do something that Remain claimed would not or could not happen due to Dave's amazing negotiating skills.
That's fine, that's democracy, and were UKIP to put in their manifesto for 2020, were they to win a majority they would take us out of the EU, sans referendum, I would be fine with that too.
If there Tories don't elect a strong leaver with some credibility, and possibly even then, those voters that were wavering with the kippers last time around and came back because they trusted Dave on the referendum are GONE. The Tory party has next to no credibility with the half the country that want to leave, I wonder how it plans to get it back in time for 2020. Ten years ago I was a party member, now I might as well vote Lib Dem, I would get the same policies, and at least they are honest about it.
This is why I'm so cynical about Boris' stance on the issue.
Boris is the insurance. He's a remainer sitting in the leave camp to continue the Cameron legacy if Leave wins and damaged Dave and Osborne irreparably.
“The fact that they are mostly not flying on weekends suggests these are relatively run-of-the-mill investigations,” Nathan Freed Wessler, an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union’s (ACLU) Project on Speech, Privacy, and Technology, told BuzzFeed News
“The fact that they are mostly not flying on weekends suggests these are relatively run-of-the-mill investigations,” Nathan Freed Wessler, an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union’s (ACLU) Project on Speech, Privacy, and Technology, told BuzzFeed News
It just made me chuckle....we only do spying 9-5....not weekends or public holidays...
“That’s painful,” Wedick told BuzzFeed News. He suspects that the weekend dip reflects the controversial practice of using undercover agents and informants to entice suspects into joining fake terrorist plots devised by the FBI. “The FBI today is better able to control investigations, enabling agents to orchestrate events when more resources were available,” Wedick said.
So if somebody offers you a big coke deal or to join ISIS, if they say lets meet in the week be suspicious, if they say Sunday OK, you know you are ok ;-)
The data all came from Flightradar24, so I doubt proper super secret flights get logged on that.
And that's the problem with the west right now. You can vote who you want, what you end up with is a kind of insipid social democracy.
Because that's what voters as a whole want, presumably.
I think more realistically it's because it's what most voters dislike the least. It something everyone can tolerate never mind how gritted their teeth, stronger views always have someone that dislikes them enough to oppose them. Its the political equivalent of serving a medium sweet rose at your party, its a bit crap, but everyone will drink it, no one will spit it out, but crucially, almost no one will enjoy it either.
Mr. Eagles, you might make the same criticism of Remain.
If you think we're going to leave anyway, surely it's better to leave now rather than get entangled further and worsen the difficulty when we do leave?
I think more realistically it's because it's what most voters dislike the least. It something everyone can tolerate never mind how gritted their teeth, stronger views always have someone that dislikes them enough to oppose them. Its the political equivalent of serving a medium sweet rose at your party, its a bit crap, but everyone will drink it, no one will spit it out, but crucially, almost no one will enjoy it either.
OK, fair point, but it doesn't alter the fact that there's a good democratic reason for 'insipid social democracy'.
I wonder how farmers will end up voting? Many of them absolutely detest the EU, and understandably so given the nightmare of the Rural Payments Agency plus all the regulatory stuff they have to put up with. But on the other hand there's no guarantee they'll get so much loot if we do leave the CAP; it would obviously depend on what view UK governments took in the future.
"Business as usual in Brussels despite Dutch ‘no’ to Ukraine
The Dutch ‘no’ vote in Wednesday’s referendum on the EU’s treaty with Ukraine will have no impact on the implementation of the agreement, a spokesman for the European Commission told broadcaster Nos. The treaty has already been signed and unanimously accepted by all EU leaders and the Dutch ‘no’ will not change that, the spokesman is quoted as saying."
Not surprised by this, once a treaty is ratified by all, a referendum after the event is worthless.
A bit like UK referendums?
I mean this is the second referendum on leaving our continental partners.
Oooh, I've got an idea for a thread.
Were Leave to lose, they must stop acting like the EU/Scot Nats, and respect the will of the people.
The more you try to fix the referendum the less likely that becomes.
I for one will certainly not stop campaigning against the EU if Remain win. I will take huge pleasure in pointing out every time they do something that Remain claimed would not or could not happen due to Dave's amazing negotiating skills.
That's fine, that's democracy, and were UKIP to put in their manifesto for 2020, were they to win a majority they would take us out of the EU, sans referendum, I would be fine with that too.
If there Tories don't elect a strong leaver with some credibility, and possibly even then, those voters that were wavering with the kippers last time around and came back because they trusted Dave on the referendum are GONE. The Tory party has next to no credibility with the half the country that want to leave, I wonder how it plans to get it back in time for 2020. Ten years ago I was a party member, now I might as well vote Lib Dem, I would get the same policies, and at least they are honest about it.
In your own undoubted passion, you are overestimating the passion others feel for the topic. I've been asking for a referendum for years, and now we've got one. I'm trying to take a sober look at the arguments and make my mind up - which is proving difficult considering both sides are acting like monkeys flinging sh*t.
I'm probably going to vote leave, and will be part of the 'half of the country' that voted that way. It's just that at the next election the issue of Europe will probably be low on the list of things that will alter my vote (*). Just as it was at the 2015 GE. And I doubt I'll be alone.
You are mixing up your own feelings with those of the majority.
In your own undoubted passion, you are overestimating the passion others feel for the topic. I've been asking for a referendum for years, and now we've got one. I'm trying to take a sober look at the arguments and make my mind up - which is proving difficult considering both sides are acting like monkeys flinging sh*t.
I'm probably going to vote leave, and will be part of the 'half of the country' that voted that way. It's just that at the next election the issue of Europe will probably be low on the list of things that will alter my vote (*). Just as it was at the 2015 GE. And I doubt I'll be alone.
You are mixing up your own feelings with those of the majority.
(*) unless some weird circumstances occur.
Dave presumably though the numbers involved were significant enough to offer the referendum and lure enough Tory waverers away from the Kippers to win his majority. All I am saying is that giving his behaviour since, that was a one time gambit, none of those people is going to believe him, and possibly the Tory party on the subject of the EU for quite a while.
This is getting a bit stupid now. We know where they got the device and there are copy cats if you do a cursory google search. Do you not think Apple don't already know of the likes of the Israeli company making these devices.
He will need that kind of showing again in New York to have a ghost of a chance.
I don't understand some of that article. They talk about the results of an exit poll in New York and Pennsylvania, but they've not voted, so how can there be an exit poll?
TSE, you could balance a spirit level on those two lines - and more than £3 million matched.
My own hunch, the private polling of both sides is showing a similar picture of the outcome.
Which is why we are seeing so little of Boris. He can see a loss on the horizon and doesn't want to be tarred with it, at the same time if there is a call for a leaver to be the next PM, he wants to be that leaver. He will wait and see which way the wind is blowing after the referendum and then either tell everyone that he was solid for leave, or that he was a remainer all along that got briefly tempted against this better judgement. Tricky call, and I think he has completely blown it, fine calculations like that only work when people can't see that your are making them.
Dave presumably though the numbers involved were significant enough to offer the referendum and lure enough Tory waverers away from the Kippers to win his majority. All I am saying is that giving his behaviour since, that was a one time gambit, none of those people is going to believe him, and possibly the Tory party on the subject of the EU for quite a while.
There will be many people who were like me: the idea of a referendum was appealing, but just one of many issues that swayed our votes. If anything I'm thankful for Cameron giving me a chance to vote on this issue. I'm not bothered that he's chosen one side or the other: I can make up my own mind.
With 'none of these people', you are again projecting your opinions on others whose views will be far more mixed and nuanced than you make out.
TSE, you could balance a spirit level on those two lines - and more than £3 million matched.
My own hunch, the private polling of both sides is showing a similar picture of the outcome.
Which is why we are seeing so little of Boris. He can see a loss on the horizon and doesn't want to be tarred with it, at the same time if there is a call for a leaver to be the next PM, he wants to be that leaver. He will wait and see which way the wind is blowing after the referendum and then either tell everyone that he was solid for leave, or that he was a remainer all along that got briefly tempted against this better judgement. Tricky call, and I think he has completely blown it, fine calculations like that only work when people can't see that your are making them.
Ah - So he's preparing for a spot of aftertiming. I think you've nailed it there
If there Tories don't elect a strong leaver with some credibility, and possibly even then, those voters that were wavering with the kippers last time around and came back because they trusted Dave on the referendum are GONE. The Tory party has next to no credibility with the half the country that want to leave, I wonder how it plans to get it back in time for 2020. Ten years ago I was a party member, now I might as well vote Lib Dem, I would get the same policies, and at least they are honest about it.
You have to consider the state of the other parties though.
Labour's civil war has gone quiet but will come back with a vengeance (probably at their conference) The LDs are nowhere UKIP look unlikely to breakthrough until Farage goes.
Dave presumably though the numbers involved were significant enough to offer the referendum and lure enough Tory waverers away from the Kippers to win his majority. All I am saying is that giving his behaviour since, that was a one time gambit, none of those people is going to believe him, and possibly the Tory party on the subject of the EU for quite a while.
There will be many people who were like me: the idea of a referendum was appealing, but just one of many issues that swayed our votes. If anything I'm thankful for Cameron giving me a chance to vote on this issue. I'm not bothered that he's chosen one side or the other: I can make up my own mind.
With 'none of these people', you are again projecting your opinions on others whose views will be far more mixed and nuanced than you make out.
The problem is not the "I can make up my own mind" sort of people - it is the "Nanny State knows best" ones.
I wonder how farmers will end up voting? Many of them absolutely detest the EU, and understandably so given the nightmare of the Rural Payments Agency plus all the regulatory stuff they have to put up with. But on the other hand there's no guarantee they'll get so much loot if we do leave the CAP; it would obviously depend on what view UK governments took in the future.
I'm not sure 'The Government' should or indeed does believe that remaining in the EU is in the best interests of the United Kingdom. The majority of it certainly does, but a minority back Leave. The civil service (which undoubtedly backs Remain to the hilt) is supposed to be neutral.
This is getting a bit stupid now. We know where they got the device and there are copy cats if you do a cursory google search. Do you not think Apple don't already know of the likes of the Israeli company making these devices.
(Snip).
My view: the CIA already could hack the phone, and knew the contents. But they might not be able to use the information in court without revealing they could hack the phone. Therefore they wanted to publicise they needed 'help' to do it.
Apple's security is strong, and they're making attacks and exploits increasingly difficult. But the people wanting to get in will be more numerous, and have more desire to get in, than Apple have to keep them out.
TSE, you could balance a spirit level on those two lines - and more than £3 million matched.
My own hunch, the private polling of both sides is showing a similar picture of the outcome.
Which is why we are seeing so little of Boris. He can see a loss on the horizon and doesn't want to be tarred with it, at the same time if there is a call for a leaver to be the next PM, he wants to be that leaver. He will wait and see which way the wind is blowing after the referendum and then either tell everyone that he was solid for leave, or that he was a remainer all along that got briefly tempted against this better judgement. Tricky call, and I think he has completely blown it, fine calculations like that only work when people can't see that your are making them.
I'm so dissapointed in his lack of personal ambition and raging ego combined with keen intelligence. I never had him down as God's gift to the UK, but I always thought there was killer instinct under that mop - it seems not.
The man runs London. Ok it's not the trump card of running the UK, but it's pretty damn close. He could have genuinely swung it. Lack of testicular fortitude.
If there Tories don't elect a strong leaver with some credibility, and possibly even then, those voters that were wavering with the kippers last time around and came back because they trusted Dave on the referendum are GONE. The Tory party has next to no credibility with the half the country that want to leave, I wonder how it plans to get it back in time for 2020. Ten years ago I was a party member, now I might as well vote Lib Dem, I would get the same policies, and at least they are honest about it.
You have to consider the state of the other parties though.
Labour's civil war has gone quiet but will come back with a vengeance (probably at their conference) The LDs are nowhere UKIP look unlikely to breakthrough until Farage goes.
Oh I agree, I just see lots of Tory voters in the spectrum from disillusioned through to seriously pissed off deciding to stay on the sofa. Less people voted for Blair than voted for Major, Tory governments fall because Tory voters stay a home.
This is getting a bit stupid now. We know where they got the device and there are copy cats if you do a cursory google search. Do you not think Apple don't already know of the likes of the Israeli company making these devices.
(Snip).
My view: the CIA already could hack the phone, and knew the contents. But they might not be able to use the information in court without revealing they could hack the phone. Therefore they wanted to publicise they needed 'help' to do it.
Apple's security is strong, and they're making attacks and exploits increasingly difficult. But the people wanting to get in will be more numerous, and have more desire to get in, than Apple have to keep them out.
T'was ever thus in computer security.
Of course they could....we know NSA have hacked far harder things than an out of date iPhone e.g. OpenVPN. Help of highly skilled Israeli friends have also been longed used e.g Stuxnet.
He will need that kind of showing again in New York to have a ghost of a chance.
I don't understand some of that article. They talk about the results of an exit poll in New York and Pennsylvania, but they've not voted, so how can there be an exit poll?
Here is Bernie's big upcoming problem that will have the Young Turks crying into their cornflakes "racially diverse states that don’t allow independents to vote in primaries."
I'm afraid the notion of impartial public servants went out of the window along time ago, being finally buried under New Labour, when we even had chief police officers driving around with Vote Labour stickers in their car windows.
On the topic of the EU there is no danger whatever of impartiality - as was recently noted much of the public sector is now just an implementation body for the EU. They will just do as their bosses say.
Polly is calling on the government to scrap IHT....wonders will never cease!!!
Why? - or is pending mortality and a multimillion property portfolio reason enough.
Anyone left of centre holds inheritance tax as a sacred totem of social justice. After all, fewer young people can ever own homes without parents to pony up a deposit. Social mobility is falling: in 1991 17% of top earners came from low-earning families, but that fell to 13% by 2000, with 42% from the richest families. Is there revolution in the air? Alas not.
Deep in the psyche of this feudal-minded nation, with its monarchy, peerage and crown-protected tax havens, inheritance tax is detested by those who will never pay it. So misled have people been by the barrage of bogus stories about the taxman coming after their hard-earned savings that almost every home-owner wrongly fears small bequests will be snatched from their children. Labour voters are almost as opposed as Tory voters.
Take a deep breath – now is the time for Labour to declare it will abolish inheritance tax altogether. The argument is lost, the public’s ears are blocked.
Polly is calling on the government to scrap IHT....wonders will never cease!!!
Why? - or is pending mortality and a multimillion property portfolio reason enough.
Anyone left of centre holds inheritance tax as a sacred totem of social justice. After all, fewer young people can ever own homes without parents to pony up a deposit. Social mobility is falling: in 1991 17% of top earners came from low-earning families, but that fell to 13% by 2000, with 42% from the richest families. Is there revolution in the air? Alas not.
Deep in the psyche of this feudal-minded nation, with its monarchy, peerage and crown-protected tax havens, inheritance tax is detested by those who will never pay it. So misled have people been by the barrage of bogus stories about the taxman coming after their hard-earned savings that almost every home-owner wrongly fears small bequests will be snatched from their children. Labour voters are almost as opposed as Tory voters.
Take a deep breath – now is the time for Labour to declare it will abolish inheritance tax altogether. The argument is lost, the public’s ears are blocked.
He will need that kind of showing again in New York to have a ghost of a chance.
I don't understand some of that article. They talk about the results of an exit poll in New York and Pennsylvania, but they've not voted, so how can there be an exit poll?
It was referring to NY and Pennsylvania exit polls from 2008.
In New York, for example, 87 percent of 2008 primary voters identified as Democrats in the exit poll — significantly more than the 71 percent in Wisconsin’s open primary on Tuesday. In Pennsylvania, Democrats made up 82 percent of the 2008 closed primary electorate.
He will need that kind of showing again in New York to have a ghost of a chance.
I don't understand some of that article. They talk about the results of an exit poll in New York and Pennsylvania, but they've not voted, so how can there be an exit poll?
It was referring to NY and Pennsylvania exit polls from 2008.
The motion, which has been approved for a debate and vote by the Manchester Students' Union, reads:
“David Cameron and his right-wing Tory government were elected by a minority of the electorate." “Zero students voted Tory. Therefore, we must make a stand against this undemocratic regime by banning David Cameron and his Tory government from our democratic Students’ Union and our university campus." “In addition, David Cameron has continually violated the safe-space policy by implementing changes to junior doctors’ NHS contracts." “We must fight back against the Tory steamroller which is destroying the NHS and destroying the United Kingdom and also Europe." “Also David Cameron has said we should vote to stay in the EU, but he is a Tory and therefore he must have lied."
Will someone be opposing the motion, or is that not allowed under "safe space" policies ?
Still ploughing through the earlier comments so this may have been answered ...
But can anyone tell me why junior doctors contracts have anything to do with "safe spaces", please?
And what did these university undergrads do with their brains after they qualified to get there? Leave them at school?
Vote Leave has today published its analysis of the false and misleading claims made in the Government’s recently announced £9 million propaganda campaign. The full analysis is contained below.
Commenting, Vote Leave Chair Gisela Stuart MP said:
"This is not the facts, it is a misleading government propaganda campaign paid for by hard-working taxpayers who would rather see their money spent on their priorities. The public want an honest debate conducted by two competing sides, not an attempt by the Prime Minister to buy the referendum result with the public’s money. We already hand Brussels £350 million a week without having to pay more just to bail out David Cameron’s failed renegotiation and the floundering remain campaign."
Polly is calling on the government to scrap IHT....wonders will never cease!!!
Why? - or is pending mortality and a multimillion property portfolio reason enough.
Wasn't Tyson pouring vitriol over right wingers yesterday for daring to legally reduce their tax bills? Something about the mental state of right wingers to "me me me " and its in their genes as well as being wicked and evil for bar b cueing first born etc etc. Meanwhile he was the model of upstanding probity for paying as much as he could to the government as he couldn't be arsed to do anything else?
Well here we have that known right winger Pollytwaddle wanting to errr ......reduce her tax bill.
Comments
Likewise, if leave win, and if it is more than a 5-10% win, then the remainers will have to accept that we are leaving the EU. Although the arguments about what the vote meant will just be starting, and give them an opportunity to somewhat shape things the way they want. After all, the leave groups may well be at each other's throats after a leave vote.
The really interesting situation will occur if there is 5-10% in the result either way. And that seems to be the way things are heading.
I've got my popcorn ready ...
"UK ‘prime destination for money laundering criminals’"
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/uk-prime-destination-for-money-laundering-criminals-says-new-report-6hg08ksjl
https://twitter.com/EuroGuido/status/718096348164317184
They'll all vote remain and then claim to have voted leave.
"UKIP" posters up in fields for Euro Elections.
NAP
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/news/73003/remain-campaign-launch-grab-granny-strategy
And that's the problem with the west right now. You can vote who you want, what you end up with is a kind of insipid social democracy.
If it's a Leave, then it should be reasonably clear whether any economic downturn is concentrated in the UK and Europe, rather than being a problem of the world as a whole.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/04/bernies-big-breakthrough-221659
He will need that kind of showing again in New York to have a ghost of a chance.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/peteraldhous/spies-in-the-skies
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/35987323
Nobody wants the new format or aggregate qualifying, except for two poison dwarves. Unfortunately, they're Ecclestone and the FIA President.
Let's hope the teams stick to their guns. A return to 2015 is what everyone, save two, wants.
I don't think Leave have a coherent or practicable plan for what Brexit entails.
“The fact that they are mostly not flying on weekends suggests these are relatively run-of-the-mill investigations,” Nathan Freed Wessler, an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union’s (ACLU) Project on Speech, Privacy, and Technology, told BuzzFeed News
The data all came from Flightradar24, so I doubt proper super secret flights get logged on that.
If you think we're going to leave anyway, surely it's better to leave now rather than get entangled further and worsen the difficulty when we do leave?
#Tories4AV
I'm probably going to vote leave, and will be part of the 'half of the country' that voted that way. It's just that at the next election the issue of Europe will probably be low on the list of things that will alter my vote (*). Just as it was at the 2015 GE. And I doubt I'll be alone.
You are mixing up your own feelings with those of the majority.
(*) unless some weird circumstances occur.
[Unless he did so when I was away, of course].
Some idiot nearly spoiled Civil War for me.
This is getting a bit stupid now. We know where they got the device and there are copy cats if you do a cursory google search. Do you not think Apple don't already know of the likes of the Israeli company making these devices.
Talking of wacky Israeli companies...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ML9saG7yPw
Good day a work darling.....yeah we made the latest version of ISIS IED formula....certainly not the dullest of jobs.
With 'none of these people', you are again projecting your opinions on others whose views will be far more mixed and nuanced than you make out.
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/512/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2016/4/7/37b812a3-dd87-47f6-9316-a30620b7a050.jpg
He appears to be modelling himself on some chav who buys all his best clobber in JD Sports. If you fancy a pair of those golf shoes, $200.
Labour's civil war has gone quiet but will come back with a vengeance (probably at their conference)
The LDs are nowhere
UKIP look unlikely to breakthrough until Farage goes.
We'll see what happens.
Apple's security is strong, and they're making attacks and exploits increasingly difficult. But the people wanting to get in will be more numerous, and have more desire to get in, than Apple have to keep them out.
T'was ever thus in computer security.
The man runs London. Ok it's not the trump card of running the UK, but it's pretty damn close. He could have genuinely swung it. Lack of testicular fortitude.
What's the record for fastest to 100k? This could come close.
On the topic of the EU there is no danger whatever of impartiality - as was recently noted much of the public sector is now just an implementation body for the EU. They will just do as their bosses say.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-35614846
http://www.politico.eu/article/euroskeptic-movement-plan-what-comes-after-ukip-brexit/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3526487/Serving-police-office-sparked-security-alert-involved-false-999-call-claiming-radical-Muslim-links-ISIS-planning-kidnap-colleague.html
5,844 signatures in the last hour.
https://petition.parliament.uk/
http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=116762
Or possibly as you say, she has a few quid she needs to pass on...and would save some legal fees.
Or possibly as you say, she has a few quid she needs to pass on...and would say some legal fees.
The birthday present tax rides again.
Expect it to slow down now that the work day is over. Probably won't reach 100k today then.
But can anyone tell me why junior doctors contracts have anything to do with "safe spaces", please?
And what did these university undergrads do with their brains after they qualified to get there? Leave them at school?
Well here we have that known right winger Pollytwaddle wanting to errr ......reduce her tax bill.
Who'd have thunk it?