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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LAB in lead for first time since last May as the Tories pay

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    old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238

    Oh dear. Osborne made me leave the Tory party in 2012 and he's now given Labour supporters who actually care about elections their first happy time in yonks. Shame that they don't have a team who could capitalise on that. Real shame.

    Second boy arrived yesterday, by the way. Home and well so all good!

    Congratulations :grin:
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,523
    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    My first Question Time for a while. It is shockingly poor.

    Panel or audience?

    The whole thing. Shit panellists, thick audience and a moderator who is all over the place.

    I had to turn it off, as it was so inane, tedious, irritating, and juvenile. I've never had to do that before. I've often ignored it - in the background. But this drove me to the OFF button.

    It does make one despair over British political discourse. And it makes the US Republican presidential debates look positively Socratic. Depressing.
    Seriously who BOTHERS with Question Time?

    It's been awful for years, with the drones in the audience leading a moronic clapping of virtually *every* single point made by anyone, no matter how retarded, inarticulate or plain stupid it is.

    Life's too short.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,523
    @AndyJS

    Norman Tebbit comes across very well in that 1984 QT.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,128

    Angie's problems continue. CSU saying they have real issues with the Chancellors policies. Fortunately her socialist partners are being"helpful" by saying she's in team SPD. That should cheer up the right wingers.


    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fluechtlingskrise/verkehrsminister-dobrindt-zwischen-csu-und-cdu-ist-eine-ernste-situation-eingetreten-14131979.html

    She's certainly someone who stuck two fingers up to her own voters.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,128
    I think Project Fear is in danger of trashing the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,741
    Tories lose 2 out of their 3 council defences (third one counting this morning).

    Liberal Democrat GAIN Aylsham (Broadland) from Conservative.

    Aylsham (Broadland) result:
    LDEM: 48.0% (+17.1)
    CON: 37.9% (+5.5)
    LAB: 14.1% (-8.0)

    Lincolnshire Independent GAIN Ashby de la Launde & Cranwell (North Kesteven) from Conservative.

    Ashby de la Launde (N. Kesteven) result:
    L-IND: 55.6% (+55.6)
    CON: 36.0% (-31.2)
    LDEM: 8.4% (+8.4)
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sean_F said:

    I think Project Fear is in danger of trashing the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence.

    Actually I think that Geoerge is right to see economic stormclouds gathering. The China slowdown is looking increasingly serious. Pity he has done sod all about it.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,070
    edited March 2016
    It's not looking good for Osborne today, is it? The Tory nightmare now is that Labour comes to its senses and chooses a vaguely credible leader. If they can lead polls with Corbyn in charge, the opportunities should they have a leader who has even a vague hint of credibility are pretty significant. Luckily for the Tories, Labour is very unlikely to understand this - or to care that much.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Danny565 said:

    I can only assume Osborne is on a mission to make Ed Miliband look normal and socially-competent.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FvCUbaf9z8&feature=youtu.be

    This is the sort of socially inept freak we have governing us. We should sneer at people like Osborne treat him with contempt. Unbelievably there are people, this site is a perfect example, who still hold politicians in some esteem simply because they wear the right colour rosette.



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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    edited March 2016

    Tories lose 2 out of their 3 council defences (third one counting this morning).

    Liberal Democrat GAIN Aylsham (Broadland) from Conservative.

    Aylsham (Broadland) result:
    LDEM: 48.0% (+17.1)
    CON: 37.9% (+5.5)
    LAB: 14.1% (-8.0)

    Lincolnshire Independent GAIN Ashby de la Launde & Cranwell (North Kesteven) from Conservative.

    Ashby de la Launde (N. Kesteven) result:
    L-IND: 55.6% (+55.6)
    CON: 36.0% (-31.2)
    LDEM: 8.4% (+8.4)

    Ignoring the one distorted by a local independent, I think the Tories would be quite happy with a national GE vote share change in 2020 of Con +5.5, Lab -8! (Edit: and, yes, even with LD +17.1)
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,070

    Sean_F said:

    I think Project Fear is in danger of trashing the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence.

    Actually I think that Geoerge is right to see economic stormclouds gathering. The China slowdown is looking increasingly serious. Pity he has done sod all about it.

    He has been far too interested in positioning himself to take over from Cameron. Osborne has missed Ed Balls badly this last year. Not having an opposition has hurt him more than any other cabinet minister.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Danny565 said:

    I can only assume Osborne is on a mission to make Ed Miliband look normal and socially-competent.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FvCUbaf9z8&feature=youtu.be

    This is the sort of socially inept freak we have governing us. We should sneer at people like Osborne treat him with contempt. Unbelievably there are people, this site is a perfect example, who still hold politicians in some esteem simply because they wear the right colour rosette.



    Alternatively there are people who think politicians are doing a good job because they're doing what they believe in which is why they support that colour rosette in the first place.

    I care more about what the Chancellor is doing for the economy and taxes than I do how awkward he is when being filmed wish schoolchildren. If you think the latter is more important then more fool you and bring back Blair.
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    I think you are right, SO. Complacency is a terrible thing.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    It's not looking good for Osborne today, is it? The Tory nightmare now is that Labour comes to its senses and chooses a vaguely credible leader. If they can lead polls with Corbyn in charge, the opportunities should they have a leader who has even a vague hint of credibility are pretty significant. Luckily for the Tories, Labour is very unlikely to understand this - or to care that much.

    Shows how low Labour have fallen that a midterm 1 point lead is considered shocking.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,045

    It's not looking good for Osborne today, is it? The Tory nightmare now is that Labour comes to its senses and chooses a vaguely credible leader. If they can lead polls with Corbyn in charge, the opportunities should they have a leader who has even a vague hint of credibility are pretty significant. Luckily for the Tories, Labour is very unlikely to understand this - or to care that much.

    This is why the suggestion 'we'd compromise our principles for power, but not for 250 seats under Yvette' that some of the soft left supporters of Corbyn put forward was so much bunkum. If they had compromised then, they'd be favourites to win in 2020 even on a pretty leftist platform. But nobody with a brain cell or any moral sense at all is going to vote for a party led by Corbyn.

    Agree with your other post too.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Jesus, now Labour are trying to claim credit for the Tampon Tax. Just stop.

    It's risible. I can't believe the desperation of them all.
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    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    HYUFD said:

    Went to the National Portrait Gallery this evening and a man was wearing a 'Making America Great Again' baseball cap, not the place you would normally expect to see a Trump supporter

    Are you sure it wasn't "Make Donald Drumpf Again"?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,523
    Sean_F said:

    I think Project Fear is in danger of trashing the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence.

    "If we were independent, we simply couldn't handle the powers we'd have without the EU; the country would become a basket case on our watch."
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    SandraMSandraM Posts: 206

    Bold prediction, those disability cuts are getting reversed PDQ

    Ahem. As I said on an earlier thread, I hoped it was the equivalent of a stripper's thong and was put on only to be discarded with a flourish. Otherwise, they have handed Labour an open goal even Corbyn couldn't miss.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,070

    It's not looking good for Osborne today, is it? The Tory nightmare now is that Labour comes to its senses and chooses a vaguely credible leader. If they can lead polls with Corbyn in charge, the opportunities should they have a leader who has even a vague hint of credibility are pretty significant. Luckily for the Tories, Labour is very unlikely to understand this - or to care that much.

    Shows how low Labour have fallen that a midterm 1 point lead is considered shocking.

    It is absolutely extraordinary that a party led by Jeremy Corbyn should be in the lead in even one opinion poll. But as others have pointed out, the latest YouGov confirms a trend from other polls which has seen the gap between the two parties narrow or even close. The Tories are doing this to themselves.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,081
    Speedy said:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/trackers/2016-03-18/trump-clinton-hold-large-leads-in-n-y-primary-races-poll

    New York, Emerson:

    Trump 64
    Cruz 12
    Kasich 1

    Hillary 71
    Sanders 23

    Trump would probably gain all 95 N.Y. delegates, that will erase most of his deficit from Ohio, Utah and N.Dakota.

    Goodnight.

    No surprise Trump going down well and Cruz like cold sick in New York.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,523

    Sean_F said:

    I think Project Fear is in danger of trashing the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence.

    Actually I think that Geoerge is right to see economic stormclouds gathering. The China slowdown is looking increasingly serious. Pity he has done sod all about it.

    He has been far too interested in positioning himself to take over from Cameron. Osborne has missed Ed Balls badly this last year. Not having an opposition has hurt him more than any other cabinet minister.
    He does have opposition, it's just it's from his own backbenches.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    It could've been knitted for him :smiley:
    SandraM said:

    Bold prediction, those disability cuts are getting reversed PDQ

    Ahem. As I said on an earlier thread, I hoped it was the equivalent of a stripper's thong and was put on only to be discarded with a flourish. Otherwise, they have handed Labour an open goal even Corbyn couldn't miss.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,070

    Toby Young ‏@toadmeister
    If you're interested in the case for #Brexit, I set it out here (and consider the case for Remain, too) http://www.eu-facts.org.uk/2016/03/17/toby-young-why-ill-be-voting-leave-on-23-june/ … #bbcqt


    Toby Young: Why I’ll be voting Leave on 23 June

    http://www.eu-facts.org.uk/2016/03/17/toby-young-why-ill-be-voting-leave-on-23-june/

    Even by Toby's standards that is a very poor effort. The idea that access to the EU free market is remotely the same as being a part of it is laughable; as is the notion that leaving the EU will make it much harder for German citizens to enter the UK.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,128

    Sean_F said:

    I think Project Fear is in danger of trashing the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence.

    "If we were independent, we simply couldn't handle the powers we'd have without the EU; the country would become a basket case on our watch."
    Eking a victory in the Referendum would be cold comfort if the Conservative Party was left as a heap of smoking rubble.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,780
    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Danny565 said:

    I can only assume Osborne is on a mission to make Ed Miliband look normal and socially-competent.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FvCUbaf9z8&feature=youtu.be

    This is the sort of socially inept freak we have governing us. We should sneer at people like Osborne treat him with contempt. Unbelievably there are people, this site is a perfect example, who still hold politicians in some esteem simply because they wear the right colour rosette.



    Alternatively there are people who think politicians are doing a good job because they're doing what they believe in which is why they support that colour rosette in the first place.

    I care more about what the Chancellor is doing for the economy and taxes than I do how awkward he is when being filmed wish schoolchildren. If you think the latter is more important then more fool you and bring back Blair.
    Bring back Blair? What an extraordinary thing to say, another example of tribalism.

    If I honestly believed that, as you opine, they're doing what they believe in I wouldn't be so critical, most of them simply follow the whip for the good of their career, it has nothing to do with principles.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,070
    SandraM said:

    Bold prediction, those disability cuts are getting reversed PDQ

    Ahem. As I said on an earlier thread, I hoped it was the equivalent of a stripper's thong and was put on only to be discarded with a flourish. Otherwise, they have handed Labour an open goal even Corbyn couldn't miss.

    He has already missed it. If the changes are reversed it will be because of Tory backbenchers, not Jeremy Corbyn. To be fair, though, that assumes looking after the disabled is a Corbyn priority. He seems to be much more interested in getting rid of Trident.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,081
    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    Well said, this is ultimately what will do for George - it's his U-turning at the first whiff of gunpowder every time.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    It's not looking good for Osborne today, is it? The Tory nightmare now is that Labour comes to its senses and chooses a vaguely credible leader. If they can lead polls with Corbyn in charge, the opportunities should they have a leader who has even a vague hint of credibility are pretty significant. Luckily for the Tories, Labour is very unlikely to understand this - or to care that much.

    Shows how low Labour have fallen that a midterm 1 point lead is considered shocking.

    It is absolutely extraordinary that a party led by Jeremy Corbyn should be in the lead in even one opinion poll. But as others have pointed out, the latest YouGov confirms a trend from other polls which has seen the gap between the two parties narrow or even close. The Tories are doing this to themselves.

    Well said sir, the pb tories who talk of Cameron as some sort of God need a reality check. This is a poll, not an election, but the fact so many prefer Corbyn to Cameron says all you need to know.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,780
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    Well said, this is ultimately what will do for George - it's his U-turning at the first whiff of gunpowder every time.
    The problem is not him. The problem is a small majority and some pathetic back benchers who will not give the measures consistent support. If he doesn't have the votes he doesn't have the votes and that, once again, seems to be where we are.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,523
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think Project Fear is in danger of trashing the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence.

    "If we were independent, we simply couldn't handle the powers we'd have without the EU; the country would become a basket case on our watch."
    Eking a victory in the Referendum would be cold comfort if the Conservative Party was left as a heap of smoking rubble.
    I don't think Cameron cares. Nothing won't be sacrificed to win this.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think Project Fear is in danger of trashing the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence.

    "If we were independent, we simply couldn't handle the powers we'd have without the EU; the country would become a basket case on our watch."
    Eking a victory in the Referendum would be cold comfort if the Conservative Party was left as a heap of smoking rubble.
    One would have to be some sort of europhile idiot to even attempt it... oh wait!

    The only thing that prevents me having no sympathy at all is Corbyn, on balance I would prefer him not to run the country, but otherwise Camborne's persistent attempts to stiff their party and the public means they deserve what they get.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,741
    Indigo said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think Project Fear is in danger of trashing the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence.

    "If we were independent, we simply couldn't handle the powers we'd have without the EU; the country would become a basket case on our watch."
    Eking a victory in the Referendum would be cold comfort if the Conservative Party was left as a heap of smoking rubble.
    One would have to be some sort of europhile idiot to even attempt it... oh wait!

    The only thing that prevents me having no sympathy at all is Corbyn, on balance I would prefer him not to run the country, but otherwise Camborne's persistent attempts to stiff their party and the public means they deserve what they get.
    He's not 'stiffing' the majority of the public.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,523
    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.

    Very well said, David. I agree entirely.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    On the subject of Apple v. FBI the FBI seem to have managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by getting the public all riled up about snooping, shame people in the UK are more gullable

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/16/internet-security-fbi-apple-encryption-privacy

    For people like Navabi who bang on about "armchair experts" commenting on security issues while simultaneously having no idea what he is talking about, and no idea of the skills and experience of his correspondents, these people should perhaps give him pause for thought.
    But the intelligence community also seems to be on the side of better internet security. Defense secretary Ashton Carter made unusually forceful remarks about the importance of encryption in his recent visit to Silicon Valley and came out against any legislation that would weaken or ban it. “Several key NSA officials” also reportedly disagree with the FBI’s move to force Apple’s hand.

    And Richard Clarke, counter-terrorism czar under Clinton and Bush, had a harsh message for the FBI in an NPR interview this week, claiming that the FBI and justice department are alone in this fight, and that virtually all other federal agencies recognize that the benefits encryption provide to cybersecurity far outweigh its potential drawbacks.
    So the DoD, the NSA, various counterterrorism units and most of the federal government think it's a daft idea, seems to be only the FBI and Cameron/May that haven't got the memo. It has also spurred most of the tech companies into adding more encryption to their products. I was offered a job at Cheltenham a decade ago, I didn't take it, how can I put this, they pay rather less than their private sector equivalents, guess who most of the best people work for.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think Project Fear is in danger of trashing the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence.

    "If we were independent, we simply couldn't handle the powers we'd have without the EU; the country would become a basket case on our watch."
    Eking a victory in the Referendum would be cold comfort if the Conservative Party was left as a heap of smoking rubble.
    To me it looks the optimum result.

    :-)
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,352
    I'm no fan of Osborne, but to be fair to him ... nope, can't think of anything.

    Don't panic Tories, this is all part of the cunning plan to keep Jezza in place. And it's working.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited March 2016

    Indigo said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think Project Fear is in danger of trashing the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence.

    "If we were independent, we simply couldn't handle the powers we'd have without the EU; the country would become a basket case on our watch."
    Eking a victory in the Referendum would be cold comfort if the Conservative Party was left as a heap of smoking rubble.
    One would have to be some sort of europhile idiot to even attempt it... oh wait!

    The only thing that prevents me having no sympathy at all is Corbyn, on balance I would prefer him not to run the country, but otherwise Camborne's persistent attempts to stiff their party and the public means they deserve what they get.
    He's not 'stiffing' the majority of the public.
    That is a little presumptuous, I think we will find that out in due course. Besides even the majority of lukewarm Remainers can recognise bullshit when they see it.... and lies.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,070
    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    Well said, this is ultimately what will do for George - it's his U-turning at the first whiff of gunpowder every time.
    The problem is not him. The problem is a small majority and some pathetic back benchers who will not give the measures consistent support. If he doesn't have the votes he doesn't have the votes and that, once again, seems to be where we are.

    The problem is that Tory backbenchers know that Osborne will cave in.

    If the deficit is such an issue, why cut CGT right now?

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    Indigo said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think Project Fear is in danger of trashing the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence.

    "If we were independent, we simply couldn't handle the powers we'd have without the EU; the country would become a basket case on our watch."
    Eking a victory in the Referendum would be cold comfort if the Conservative Party was left as a heap of smoking rubble.
    One would have to be some sort of europhile idiot to even attempt it... oh wait!

    The only thing that prevents me having no sympathy at all is Corbyn, on balance I would prefer him not to run the country, but otherwise Camborne's persistent attempts to stiff their party and the public means they deserve what they get.
    He's not 'stiffing' the majority of the public.
    He would be if the majority of the public had the intelligence to be Thatcherites. Or have I misunderstood something, someone or somewhere?

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,081

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think Project Fear is in danger of trashing the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence.

    "If we were independent, we simply couldn't handle the powers we'd have without the EU; the country would become a basket case on our watch."
    Eking a victory in the Referendum would be cold comfort if the Conservative Party was left as a heap of smoking rubble.
    I don't think Cameron cares. Nothing won't be sacrificed to win this.
    I don't think anyone would involve the Quee...

    Oh wait.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    When Yes Minister is less ridiculous
    https://youtu.be/YpipqJNFDOQ
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    GB is heading for its nightmare scenario..Out of Europe and headed by Corbyn and his crew...good place not to be..
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,703
    edited March 2016
    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.

    Good post: nous sommes @Alanbrooke

    We wondered if Coalition Cam was being held back by the LibDems and hence was unable to show himself a Tory red in tooth and claw: was it an iron or blancmange fist inside the velvet glove? As PM with a Cons majority I am not 100% sure it's not blancmange (he is saved, for me, by his eu ref activity).

    And now with GO: one administration spent making u-turns at the slightest whiff of controversy may be regarded as misfortune, to spend two administrations doing the same thing looks like carelessness.

  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited March 2016
    Yup, there's enough of us just on here very unhappy with Cameron's tactics.

    Hopefully the worst is over, but I doubt it. It gives me no pleasure at all. I'm supporting my Party despite him, not because of him.

    The Budget was Meh, bar the business tax reductions.
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think Project Fear is in danger of trashing the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence.

    "If we were independent, we simply couldn't handle the powers we'd have without the EU; the country would become a basket case on our watch."
    Eking a victory in the Referendum would be cold comfort if the Conservative Party was left as a heap of smoking rubble.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    DavidL said:

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.

    The problem is conviction politics is so passe at the moment, wishy washy centrist metro liberals with no firm views on anything are the preferred lobby fodder. We get the government we deserve if we keep selecting/electing unprincipled PR people to be MPs and ministers we can't that surprised if they don't really care that much about fixing difficult problem if they get in the way of a fast climb up the grease pole.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,780

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    Well said, this is ultimately what will do for George - it's his U-turning at the first whiff of gunpowder every time.
    The problem is not him. The problem is a small majority and some pathetic back benchers who will not give the measures consistent support. If he doesn't have the votes he doesn't have the votes and that, once again, seems to be where we are.

    The problem is that Tory backbenchers know that Osborne will cave in.

    If the deficit is such an issue, why cut CGT right now?

    Because we need growth and we need to encourage small businesses to buy, sell and invest in assets that might attract CGT as well as realise assets they are sitting on that others might use more productively. We also need to encourage investment. There is a lot of cash sitting about in our companies doing very little at the moment.

    Our economy is stuttering thanks to the international situation and it is likely to get more difficult as this year develops. With severe pressure on public finances the government must do what it can to create a more entrepreneurial environment. Whether this was the best use of the limited shot available time will tell but its possible.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think Project Fear is in danger of trashing the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence.

    "If we were independent, we simply couldn't handle the powers we'd have without the EU; the country would become a basket case on our watch."
    Eking a victory in the Referendum would be cold comfort if the Conservative Party was left as a heap of smoking rubble.
    One would have to be some sort of europhile idiot to even attempt it... oh wait!

    The only thing that prevents me having no sympathy at all is Corbyn, on balance I would prefer him not to run the country, but otherwise Camborne's persistent attempts to stiff their party and the public means they deserve what they get.
    He's not 'stiffing' the majority of the public.
    He would be if the majority of the public had the intelligence to be Thatcherites. Or have I misunderstood something, someone or somewhere?

    Wouldn't surprise me ;)
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.


    So what you are saying is that Gordon Brown really screwed the country.

  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    TOPPING said:

    As PM with a Cons majority I am not 100% sure it's not blancmange (he is saved, for me, by his eu ref activity).

    So it's fair to say that if they EU promises disintegrate at the first test (wrecked by EU Parliament, shredded by the ECJ, or just turn out not to be quite a legally binding as we were led to believe) you are not going to be a happy bunny ? I certainly wouldn't be so ungentlemanly as to say "told you so", but others might not have my scruples :D
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Always something to cheer us up

    Gordon Brown to make 'major intervention' in EU referendum in bid to stop Brexit - https://t.co/Wv1frIhMR2 https://t.co/tthygHPsAS

    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.


    So what you are saying is that Gordon Brown really screwed the country.

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,780
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.

    Good post: nous sommes @Alanbrooke

    We wondered if Coalition Cam was being held back by the LibDems and hence was unable to show himself a Tory red in tooth and claw: was it an iron or blancmange fist inside the velvet glove? As PM with a Cons majority I am not 100% sure it's not blancmange (he is saved, for me, by his eu ref activity).

    And now with GO: one administration spent making u-turns at the slightest whiff of controversy may be regarded as misfortune, to spend two administrations doing the same thing looks like carelessness.

    Curiously, the Lib Dems on the whole gave more consistent support than the awkward squad so the Coalition with a much larger majority was able to provide more stable government than the Tories are managing on their own.

    Small majority government is difficult. I remember Callaghan's government surviving from day to day and it was chaotic. A united Tory party could get on with things but they are not united and only partly because of Europe although that is the major factor.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,378
    My horses for the day , hopefully better day than yesterday.
    1:30 Zubayr
    2:10 Blue Hell
    2:50 Barters Hill
    3:30 Don Cossack
    4:10 Paint the Clouds
    4:50 Qualando
    5:30 Rock the World

    I will start with Patent on Zubayr , Blue Hell and Don Cossack.
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Tampon Tax: A simple measure that should have been a tick-box change for the UK Chancellor...

    ... requires the agreement of the whole EU (which we only got given the current referendum).

    How does this possibly make the EU look good?

  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.

    However the Coalition and now the Con government have endlessly said that the deficit would not be brought down "on the backs of the disabled", repeated last night by Nicky Morgan.

    Last Friday this was a done deal deal and now it's up for negotiation. Some might say the Conservative rebels are simply following the agreed path and that it is IDS and co who require more backbone to enforce the governments mantra.

    Either way it wasn't smart politics to cut disabled benefits and provide tax cuts for higher earners n the same breath.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    It turns out that Conservatives are just as fervent believers in the magic money tree as Labour supporters - just different branches.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,780

    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.


    So what you are saying is that Gordon Brown really screwed the country.

    Oh yes. Big time.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Noone should believe the actual polling figures, the only thing to note is the direction of travel. Ever since the pollsters screwed up at GE 2015 multiple fixes have been taking place and no one knows if those fixes are the right ones.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited March 2016

    It turns out that Conservatives are just as fervent believers in the magic money tree as Labour supporters - just different branches.

    There are some Conservatives that feel Camborne are in the wrong party, they might well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.... but you would struggle to get a cigarette paper between Camborne and Clegg on most policies, apparently now including the EU.
  • Options
    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    As PM with a Cons majority I am not 100% sure it's not blancmange (he is saved, for me, by his eu ref activity).

    So it's fair to say that if they EU promises disintegrate at the first test (wrecked by EU Parliament, shredded by the ECJ, or just turn out not to be quite a legally binding as we were led to believe) you are not going to be a happy bunny ? I certainly wouldn't be so ungentlemanly as to say "told you so", but others might not have my scruples :D
    Just like JC - getting others to do your dirty work for you, eh?

  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Always something to cheer us up

    Gordon Brown to make 'major intervention' in EU referendum in bid to stop Brexit - https://t.co/Wv1frIhMR2 https://t.co/tthygHPsAS

    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.


    So what you are saying is that Gordon Brown really screwed the country.

    That's it then. Remain are doomed!

  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    It probably won't even require a set-piece repudiation of the 'deal' by the EU. The EU will simply table a series of centralising proposals on various areas which the deal doesn't explicitly cover or using the massive get out clauses which are already in the said 'deal'.

    So after a year or two it will become clear to those who are looking that nothing has really changed and the whole 'deal' was just window dressing.

    But I doubt there will be any dramatic bust up - not least because the government here will connive at avoiding one and claim whatever further centralising measures are proposed are either minor, not covered by the 'deal' or 'in Britain's interest'.

    Note in this regard the opt back into justice and home affairs measures...
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,780
    JackW said:

    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.

    However the Coalition and now the Con government have endlessly said that the deficit would not be brought down "on the backs of the disabled", repeated last night by Nicky Morgan.

    Last Friday this was a done deal deal and now it's up for negotiation. Some might say the Conservative rebels are simply following the agreed path and that it is IDS and co who require more backbone to enforce the governments mantra.

    Either way it wasn't smart politics to cut disabled benefits and provide tax cuts for higher earners n the same breath.
    It is not good politics but it is good government. We need more of the latter.
  • Options

    It turns out that Conservatives are just as fervent believers in the magic money tree as Labour supporters - just different branches.

    I think it's the voters who believe in the magic money tree.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,703
    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    As PM with a Cons majority I am not 100% sure it's not blancmange (he is saved, for me, by his eu ref activity).

    So it's fair to say that if they EU promises disintegrate at the first test (wrecked by EU Parliament, shredded by the ECJ, or just turn out not to be quite a legally binding as we were led to believe) you are not going to be a happy bunny ? I certainly wouldn't be so ungentlemanly as to say "told you so", but others might not have my scruples :D
    No I think that's right. If 28 countries do a deal and it is codified into EU directives, and then it is struck down by either the EU parliament or the ECJ, then I would not be a happy bunny.

    But then again, aside from the obvious why would they do that, they haven't as yet done it. I might need your shoulder and ridicule when it happens but as yet it is mere speculation.

    FWIW I think it was just Gove being a cheeky monkey to suggest it, knowing that it was hugely unlikely but to plant the seed nevertheless, but all's fair in love and war...
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    That Osborne claimed it as a victory last night made me LOL

    It's such a piffling concession.


    Tampon Tax: A simple measure that should have been a tick-box change for the UK Chancellor...

    ... requires the agreement of the whole EU (which we only got given the current referendum).

    How does this possibly make the EU look good?

  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    It turns out that Conservatives are just as fervent believers in the magic money tree as Labour supporters - just different branches.

    I think it's the voters who believe in the magic money tree.
    Precisely
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,073
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: will check how P1 and P2 went. Unlikely to offer a qualifying tip (the odds when I lasted checked were tight) but perhaps something will jump out.

    Miss Plato, indeed. Zip colours and gimp suits spring to mind.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    JackW said:

    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.

    However the Coalition and now the Con government have endlessly said that the deficit would not be brought down "on the backs of the disabled", repeated last night by Nicky Morgan.

    Last Friday this was a done deal deal and now it's up for negotiation. Some might say the Conservative rebels are simply following the agreed path and that it is IDS and co who require more backbone to enforce the governments mantra.

    Either way it wasn't smart politics to cut disabled benefits and provide tax cuts for higher earners n the same breath.
    It is not good politics but it is good government. We need more of the latter.
    I will once again ask, not with much hope of getting an answer: what proportion of the electorate creates wealth? I suspect it's tiny - maybe even less than 1%. It's a suspicion and not a belief because my belief is that economists haven't got a clue.

  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Indigo said:

    It turns out that Conservatives are just as fervent believers in the magic money tree as Labour supporters - just different branches.

    There are some Conservatives that feel Camborne are in the wrong party, they might well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.... but you would struggle to get a cigarette paper between Camborne and Clegg on most policies, apparently now including the EU.
    Oh it's the populist right that believe most fervently in the magic money tree. They wouldn't agree to tax credit cuts, they wouldn't agree to pensions tax rises, they're now plotting against the Chancellor about changes to disability benefits. You can argue about each of these but there comes a point where you have to accept that the money needs to come from somewhere. The Conservative right, in its Europhobic mania, is regressing to infantility.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    DavidL said:

    JackW said:

    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.

    However the Coalition and now the Con government have endlessly said that the deficit would not be brought down "on the backs of the disabled", repeated last night by Nicky Morgan.

    Last Friday this was a done deal deal and now it's up for negotiation. Some might say the Conservative rebels are simply following the agreed path and that it is IDS and co who require more backbone to enforce the governments mantra.

    Either way it wasn't smart politics to cut disabled benefits and provide tax cuts for higher earners n the same breath.
    It is not good politics but it is good government. We need more of the latter.
    I know it's a somewhat old fashioned concept and certainly novel in the modern political world but I think it's "good government" to keep your word especially to those most at risk in our society.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,523
    JackW said:

    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.

    However the Coalition and now the Con government have endlessly said that the deficit would not be brought down "on the backs of the disabled", repeated last night by Nicky Morgan.

    Last Friday this was a done deal deal and now it's up for negotiation. Some might say the Conservative rebels are simply following the agreed path and that it is IDS and co who require more backbone to enforce the governments mantra.

    Either way it wasn't smart politics to cut disabled benefits and provide tax cuts for higher earners n the same breath.
    The uprating of the 40p threshold is very long overdue.

    I agree that on corporation tax and top rate capital gains tax cuts Osborne just looks like he's pleasing his donors.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,703
    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expen getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.

    Good post: nous sommes @Alanbrooke

    We wondered if Coalition Cam was being held back by the LibDems and hence was unable to show himself a Tory red in tooth and claw: was it an iron or blancmange fist inside the velvet glove? As PM with a Cons majority I am not 100% sure it's not blancmange (he is saved, for me, by his eu ref activity).

    And now with GO: one administration spent making u-turns at the slightest whiff of controversy may be regarded as misfortune, to spend two administrations doing the same thing looks like carelessness.

    Curiously, the Lib Dems on the whole gave more consistent support than the awkward squad so the Coalition with a much larger majority was able to provide more stable government than the Tories are managing on their own.

    Small majority government is difficult. I remember Callaghan's government surviving from day to day and it was chaotic. A united Tory party could get on with things but they are not united and only partly because of Europe although that is the major factor.
    Yes I agree. They blamed Cam for not getting an overall majority and blamed him a second time for not enacting legislation (whether he wanted to or not is a separate issue) which was impossible without an overall majority.

    I remember the description solipsistic idiots being typed by me several times over the past five years describing some Cons backbenchers.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    As PM with a Cons majority I am not 100% sure it's not blancmange (he is saved, for me, by his eu ref activity).

    So it's fair to say that if they EU promises disintegrate at the first test (wrecked by EU Parliament, shredded by the ECJ, or just turn out not to be quite a legally binding as we were led to believe) you are not going to be a happy bunny ? I certainly wouldn't be so ungentlemanly as to say "told you so", but others might not have my scruples :D
    No I think that's right. If 28 countries do a deal and it is codified into EU directives, and then it is struck down by either the EU parliament or the ECJ, then I would not be a happy bunny.

    But then again, aside from the obvious why would they do that, they haven't as yet done it. I might need your shoulder and ridicule when it happens but as yet it is mere speculation.

    FWIW I think it was just Gove being a cheeky monkey to suggest it, knowing that it was hugely unlikely but to plant the seed nevertheless, but all's fair in love and war...
    Well the the ECJ is the big risk, it can't act until someone complains, and someone can't complain until the law is enacted. If the referendum is Remain and the deal survives more or less intact in the EU Parliament (although key members have already said it is too generous and they plan to tone it down further) then a challenge to migrants benefits will definitely go to the ECJ with a reasonable chance of success.

    For me the interesting question is what happens if its not wrecked, but just gently chewed, they are unlikely to tear it up and drive us away, but I can see salami tactics gently paring away at our deal in the ECJ so that in five years time we have nothing less, but each change will be small enough that our government isn't going to talk out over it.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,780

    DavidL said:

    JackW said:

    DavidL said:

    However the Coalition and now the Con government have endlessly said that the deficit would not be brought down "on the backs of the disabled", repeated last night by Nicky Morgan.

    Last Friday this was a done deal deal and now it's up for negotiation. Some might say the Conservative rebels are simply following the agreed path and that it is IDS and co who require more backbone to enforce the governments mantra.

    Either way it wasn't smart politics to cut disabled benefits and provide tax cuts for higher earners n the same breath.
    It is not good politics but it is good government. We need more of the latter.
    I will once again ask, not with much hope of getting an answer: what proportion of the electorate creates wealth? I suspect it's tiny - maybe even less than 1%. It's a suspicion and not a belief because my belief is that economists haven't got a clue.

    I am not sure that I really understand the question. There are a record 33m+ of us in work at the moment. We are the economy and our collective efforts create the money to pay for public services and all the other fripperies that we want (plus the money we are stealing from our children natch).

    Clearly there are a tiny handful who are exceptionally creative or driven who create a lot more than the average by building new companies or industries but we all contribute in the public and private sector alike.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.

    However the Coalition and now the Con government have endlessly said that the deficit would not be brought down "on the backs of the disabled", repeated last night by Nicky Morgan.

    Last Friday this was a done deal deal and now it's up for negotiation. Some might say the Conservative rebels are simply following the agreed path and that it is IDS and co who require more backbone to enforce the governments mantra.

    Either way it wasn't smart politics to cut disabled benefits and provide tax cuts for higher earners n the same breath.
    The uprating of the 40p threshold is very long overdue.

    I agree that on corporation tax and top rate capital gains tax cuts Osborne just looks like he's pleasing his donors.
    I accept the uprating of the 40p threshold for middle earners but I and many other top earners do not require it.
  • Options
    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited March 2016
    2020 might not be a nailed on win then for the Tories? What a surprise. Complacency will do for them, and Osborne's continued silly games. He's Brown to the core.

    How many points will Project Fear add to the Labour score when Cameron and Co really ramp up the ludicrous horror stories, and the proper fighting starts?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,819
    edited March 2016
    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.

    Hear hear.

    It turns out that Conservatives are just as fervent believers in the magic money tree as Labour supporters - just different branches.

    Oh yes - it's one reason the left right spectrum is mostly nonsense. There's very tentative ideological divisions between the parties, they are not the same in policies, but it is nowhere near as stark a divide in that ideology as tribal supporters pretend. They are not different on any consistent ideological grounds, just tactical grounds dressed up in ideology.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,780

    Indigo said:

    It turns out that Conservatives are just as fervent believers in the magic money tree as Labour supporters - just different branches.

    There are some Conservatives that feel Camborne are in the wrong party, they might well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.... but you would struggle to get a cigarette paper between Camborne and Clegg on most policies, apparently now including the EU.
    Oh it's the populist right that believe most fervently in the magic money tree. They wouldn't agree to tax credit cuts, they wouldn't agree to pensions tax rises, they're now plotting against the Chancellor about changes to disability benefits. You can argue about each of these but there comes a point where you have to accept that the money needs to come from somewhere. The Conservative right, in its Europhobic mania, is regressing to infantility.
    That's exactly what my rants have been about this morning.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,780
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.

    However the Coalition and now the Con government have endlessly said that the deficit would not be brought down "on the backs of the disabled", repeated last night by Nicky Morgan.

    Last Friday this was a done deal deal and now it's up for negotiation. Some might say the Conservative rebels are simply following the agreed path and that it is IDS and co who require more backbone to enforce the governments mantra.

    Either way it wasn't smart politics to cut disabled benefits and provide tax cuts for higher earners n the same breath.
    The uprating of the 40p threshold is very long overdue.

    I agree that on corporation tax and top rate capital gains tax cuts Osborne just looks like he's pleasing his donors.
    I accept the uprating of the 40p threshold for middle earners but I and many other top earners do not require it.
    As a top earner you don't get it Jack. You get no PA at all. Just like me.
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    CD13 said:

    I'm no fan of Osborne, but to be fair to him ... nope, can't think of anything.

    Don't panic Tories, this is all part of the cunning plan to keep Jezza in place. And it's working.

    In place, and in Number 10.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RodCrosby said:

    Jews to boycott Trump
    http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/group-rabbis-plan-boycott-trump-speech

    Well they can't buy him...

    That sort of remark isn't called for, or welcome.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    DavidL said:

    Indigo said:

    It turns out that Conservatives are just as fervent believers in the magic money tree as Labour supporters - just different branches.

    There are some Conservatives that feel Camborne are in the wrong party, they might well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.... but you would struggle to get a cigarette paper between Camborne and Clegg on most policies, apparently now including the EU.
    Oh it's the populist right that believe most fervently in the magic money tree. They wouldn't agree to tax credit cuts, they wouldn't agree to pensions tax rises, they're now plotting against the Chancellor about changes to disability benefits. You can argue about each of these but there comes a point where you have to accept that the money needs to come from somewhere. The Conservative right, in its Europhobic mania, is regressing to infantility.
    That's exactly what my rants have been about this morning.
    These are the people you're lining up with in the referendum. And it's their complete lack of realism and perspective that I have repeatedly warned about.
  • Options
    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    It's not looking good for Osborne today, is it? The Tory nightmare now is that Labour comes to its senses and chooses a vaguely credible leader. If they can lead polls with Corbyn in charge, the opportunities should they have a leader who has even a vague hint of credibility are pretty significant. Luckily for the Tories, Labour is very unlikely to understand this - or to care that much.

    Shows how low Labour have fallen that a midterm 1 point lead is considered shocking.
    Midterm? The GE was less than a year ago.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,780

    DavidL said:

    Indigo said:

    It turns out that Conservatives are just as fervent believers in the magic money tree as Labour supporters - just different branches.

    There are some Conservatives that feel Camborne are in the wrong party, they might well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.... but you would struggle to get a cigarette paper between Camborne and Clegg on most policies, apparently now including the EU.
    Oh it's the populist right that believe most fervently in the magic money tree. They wouldn't agree to tax credit cuts, they wouldn't agree to pensions tax rises, they're now plotting against the Chancellor about changes to disability benefits. You can argue about each of these but there comes a point where you have to accept that the money needs to come from somewhere. The Conservative right, in its Europhobic mania, is regressing to infantility.
    That's exactly what my rants have been about this morning.
    These are the people you're lining up with in the referendum. And it's their complete lack of realism and perspective that I have repeatedly warned about.
    Sigh. Now you are just depressing me. I am off to earn some more taxes for George.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Mortimer said:

    SeanT said:

    Mortimer said:

    Alistair said:

    I'm surprised the whole, remove all schools from local authory control thing, hasn't had more air time.

    Councils are not exactly highly regarded as institutions...

    One size fits all education has never been overwhelmingly popular either.

    The only people on my timeline who are angry at this are old fashioned Northern lefities. The sort who would rail against the Tories for anything.
    On this - and not much else - I will defend the govt (and indeed the Labour govt prior, which introduced them). Academies are popular. Councils aren't. This is not a vote-changer.

    (Nor is it an election winner, as it is seen as bipartisan, if anything)
    Agreed.

    Short of reintroducing Grammar schools, Academies are an education policy I can support.
    Grammar schools are too much of a one-size fits all.

    If they lifted the ban on academic selection, then some academies could effectively become grammar-like. I wouldn't be surprised if (let's say if they win in 2020) the Tories do make that change - once academies are bedded down
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    It turns out that Conservatives are just as fervent believers in the magic money tree as Labour supporters - just different branches.

    There are some Conservatives that feel Camborne are in the wrong party, they might well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.... but you would struggle to get a cigarette paper between Camborne and Clegg on most policies, apparently now including the EU.
    Oh it's the populist right that believe most fervently in the magic money tree. They wouldn't agree to tax credit cuts, they wouldn't agree to pensions tax rises, they're now plotting against the Chancellor about changes to disability benefits. You can argue about each of these but there comes a point where you have to accept that the money needs to come from somewhere. The Conservative right, in its Europhobic mania, is regressing to infantility.
    Bollocks.

    The tax credit cuts was killed in the lords by Labour and Libdem peers. Those speaking against it in the commons were people like Heidi Allen hardly a populist rightwinger.

    The Tory right want Osborne to actual cut spending, not this "reducing the level of increase" nonsense we have had over the past 5-6 years. The government should DO LESS, not try and do more on the cheap.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,819

    DavidL said:

    Indigo said:

    It turns out that Conservatives are just as fervent believers in the magic money tree as Labour supporters - just different branches.

    There are some Conservatives that feel Camborne are in the wrong party, they might well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.... but you would struggle to get a cigarette paper between Camborne and Clegg on most policies, apparently now including the EU.
    Oh it's the populist right that believe most fervently in the magic money tree. They wouldn't agree to tax credit cuts, they wouldn't agree to pensions tax rises, they're now plotting against the Chancellor about changes to disability benefits. You can argue about each of these but there comes a point where you have to accept that the money needs to come from somewhere. The Conservative right, in its Europhobic mania, is regressing to infantility.
    That's exactly what my rants have been about this morning.
    These are the people you're lining up with in the referendum. And it's their complete lack of realism and perspective that I have repeatedly warned about.
    Even people who are wrong about a lot of things can be right about some things. And you just said the other lot believe in the magic money tree, so both sides in the referendum contain large groups who lack realism and perspective on some issues.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    watford30 said:

    2020 might not be a nailed on win then for the Tories? What a surprise. Complacency will do for them, and Osborne's continued silly games. He's Brown to the core.

    How many points will Project Fear add to the Labour score when Cameron and Co really ramp up the ludicrous horror stories, and the proper fighting starts?

    Any PBer who seriously thinks the British electorate will put Jezza into Downing Street over any evenly mildly incompetent Conservative is having a brain fart of such epic proportions that it makes the late lamented @Cromwell assertion that Rubio would be the next president appear as a genius moment of political punditry.
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    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    JackW said:

    DavidL said:

    However the Coalition and now the Con government have endlessly said that the deficit would not be brought down "on the backs of the disabled", repeated last night by Nicky Morgan.

    Last Friday this was a done deal deal and now it's up for negotiation. Some might say the Conservative rebels are simply following the agreed path and that it is IDS and co who require more backbone to enforce the governments mantra.

    Either way it wasn't smart politics to cut disabled benefits and provide tax cuts for higher earners n the same breath.
    It is not good politics but it is good government. We need more of the latter.
    I will once again ask, not with much hope of getting an answer: what proportion of the electorate creates wealth? I suspect it's tiny - maybe even less than 1%. It's a suspicion and not a belief because my belief is that economists haven't got a clue.

    I am not sure that I really understand the question. There are a record 33m+ of us in work at the moment. We are the economy and our collective efforts create the money to pay for public services and all the other fripperies that we want (plus the money we are stealing from our children natch).

    Clearly there are a tiny handful who are exceptionally creative or driven who create a lot more than the average by building new companies or industries but we all contribute in the public and private sector alike.
    I would like to think so, too - but when you hear people on this site using the phrase what they tend to mean is "people I approve of" so soldiers create wealth but social workers don't and so on and so forth.

    And the reason we can't educate people to think differently is that we don't know what to put in its place. Because the so-called experts don't know.

    Most Tories on this site can't even give a coherent explanation as to why the Labour Party should be legal, beyond "it always has been", which is OK I suppose if you prefer tradition to reason as a basis for public policy.

  • Options
    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    JackW said:

    watford30 said:

    2020 might not be a nailed on win then for the Tories? What a surprise. Complacency will do for them, and Osborne's continued silly games. He's Brown to the core.

    How many points will Project Fear add to the Labour score when Cameron and Co really ramp up the ludicrous horror stories, and the proper fighting starts?

    Any PBer who seriously thinks the British electorate will put Jezza into Downing Street over any evenly mildly incompetent Conservative is having a brain fart of such epic proportions that it makes the late lamented @Cromwell assertion that Rubio would be the next president appear as a genius moment of political punditry.
    Like I said, complacency. And arrogance.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Indigo said:

    It turns out that Conservatives are just as fervent believers in the magic money tree as Labour supporters - just different branches.

    There are some Conservatives that feel Camborne are in the wrong party, they might well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.... but you would struggle to get a cigarette paper between Camborne and Clegg on most policies, apparently now including the EU.
    Oh it's the populist right that believe most fervently in the magic money tree. They wouldn't agree to tax credit cuts, they wouldn't agree to pensions tax rises, they're now plotting against the Chancellor about changes to disability benefits. You can argue about each of these but there comes a point where you have to accept that the money needs to come from somewhere. The Conservative right, in its Europhobic mania, is regressing to infantility.
    That's exactly what my rants have been about this morning.
    These are the people you're lining up with in the referendum. And it's their complete lack of realism and perspective that I have repeatedly warned about.
    Even people who are wrong about a lot of things can be right about some things. And you just said the other lot believe in the magic money tree, so both sides in the referendum contain large groups who lack realism and perspective on some issues.
    Ask yourself this: if Leave wins, will it be the realists in the ascendant or the infantile fantasists? Which is more likely to produce good governance for the country?
  • Options
    JackW said:

    watford30 said:

    2020 might not be a nailed on win then for the Tories? What a surprise. Complacency will do for them, and Osborne's continued silly games. He's Brown to the core.

    How many points will Project Fear add to the Labour score when Cameron and Co really ramp up the ludicrous horror stories, and the proper fighting starts?

    Any PBer who seriously thinks the British electorate will put Jezza into Downing Street over any evenly mildly incompetent Conservative is having a brain fart of such epic proportions that it makes the late lamented @Cromwell assertion that Rubio would be the next president appear as a genius moment of political punditry.
    Quite.

  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Indigo said:

    It turns out that Conservatives are just as fervent believers in the magic money tree as Labour supporters - just different branches.

    There are some Conservatives that feel Camborne are in the wrong party, they might well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.... but you would struggle to get a cigarette paper between Camborne and Clegg on most policies, apparently now including the EU.
    Oh it's the populist right that believe most fervently in the magic money tree. They wouldn't agree to tax credit cuts, they wouldn't agree to pensions tax rises, they're now plotting against the Chancellor about changes to disability benefits. You can argue about each of these but there comes a point where you have to accept that the money needs to come from somewhere. The Conservative right, in its Europhobic mania, is regressing to infantility.
    That's exactly what my rants have been about this morning.
    These are the people you're lining up with in the referendum. And it's their complete lack of realism and perspective that I have repeatedly warned about.
    Even people who are wrong about a lot of things can be right about some things. And you just said the other lot believe in the magic money tree, so both sides in the referendum contain large groups who lack realism and perspective on some issues.
    Ask yourself this: if Leave wins, will it be the realists in the ascendant or the infantile fantasists? Which is more likely to produce good governance for the country?
    Are you trying to turn this largely EU-free Osbrown bashing thread into another Leave-Remain bunfight ? ;)
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    It turns out that Conservatives are just as fervent believers in the magic money tree as Labour supporters - just different branches.

    There are some Conservatives that feel Camborne are in the wrong party, they might well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.... but you would struggle to get a cigarette paper between Camborne and Clegg on most policies, apparently now including the EU.
    Oh it's the populist right that believe most fervently in the magic money tree. They wouldn't agree to tax credit cuts, they wouldn't agree to pensions tax rises, they're now plotting against the Chancellor about changes to disability benefits. You can argue about each of these but there comes a point where you have to accept that the money needs to come from somewhere. The Conservative right, in its Europhobic mania, is regressing to infantility.
    Bollocks.

    The tax credit cuts was killed in the lords by Labour and Libdem peers. Those speaking against it in the commons were people like Heidi Allen hardly a populist rightwinger.

    The Tory right want Osborne to actual cut spending, not this "reducing the level of increase" nonsense we have had over the past 5-6 years. The government should DO LESS, not try and do more on the cheap.
    http://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2015/10/20-conservatives-revolt-over-tax-credits-five-of-them-are-2015-intake-members.html

    Messrs Davis, Hollobone, Jenkins and Rees-Mogg reporting for duty SIR.
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    Having a terrible Cheltenham but then I haven't been concentrating.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    DavidL said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    DavidL said:

    So now we are supposedly going to have to restore disability spending which wasn't actually in the budget but which has become cause of the day. I am getting a little tired of Tory backbenchers who say that they want sweeping cuts in public spending and a balanced budget but not that particular cut. First we had the nonsense on in work benefits and now this.

    The fact is that the level of expenditure on benefits in this country was and is too high. It distorts public spending away from necessary capital investment into current spending. This in turn undermines our productivity, our long term growth prospects and feeds our balance of payments problems.

    The speed with which IDS has been able to bring in Universal Credit has had me tearing my hair out for several years now but the fact is that he was given targets to meet in cutting benefits as part of the deficit reduction strategy. He has chosen some low hanging fruit which includes a lot of people who were getting DLA for reasons that were frequently not particularly obvious. At the same time those with more serious disabilities are already getting more money and support than ever before.

    Tory backbenchers really need to grow some backbone. The deficit reduction targets are difficult and are going to get more so. Tories are either committed to reduce the size and cost of the State in the belief that the economy will grow faster and create yet more jobs if we spend more of our own money or they aren't. The WTC fiasco cost the taxayer about £4bn. Now we are talking about another £4bn on disability benefits. The deficit is simply not going to come down, the economy is not going to be rebalanced, capital spending is not going to increase and the trade deficit is not going to fall if we go on like this.

    Either way it wasn't smart politics to cut disabled benefits and provide tax cuts for higher earners n the same breath.
    The uprating of the 40p threshold is very long overdue.

    I agree that on corporation tax and top rate capital gains tax cuts Osborne just looks like he's pleasing his donors.
    I accept the uprating of the 40p threshold for middle earners but I and many other top earners do not require it.
    As a top earner you don't get it Jack. You get no PA at all. Just like me.
    I get many things you don't get .... :smile:

    My previous comment was badly worded. In essence I did very well from the budget. The disabled need the held I certainly don't.

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Sean_F said:

    I think Project Fear is in danger of trashing the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence.

    "If we were independent, we simply couldn't handle the powers we'd have without the EU; the country would become a basket case on our watch."
    TBF, on the past week's evidence there's a case to be made that Cameron and Osborne can;t handle the powers they have *now* let alone any new ones
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