'The negotiations were not about reforming the EU'
...and the revisionism continues. Compare and contrast this statement with everything the Prime Minister said about these negotiations before they began, during the process and immediately after.
Tell you what. Stop making personal points. I don't think I've ever been rude to you.
You're voting Remain for understable personal reasons given you're an expat. I have a different view that this is a strategic decision that will impact the lives of Brits for another 40 yrs, and long after my demise.
Towards the end of the 1975 European referendum campaign, someone produced a spoof political broadcast warning of the dire consequences if we voted to leave.
Britain would be invaded by poisonous snakes, many of them millions of miles long, who would creep into our homes in the dead of night and eat our children in their beds.
...I can only assume that someone at this year's Remain campaign has stumbled across this sketch in the archives, failed to realise it was a joke, and has taken it as a blueprint for scaring us to vote to stay in the EU.
This is the game we play after every Republican debate: the mainstream press corps finds some tortured explanation for why Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz won, and then days later Donald Trump rises in the polls. In a night where CNN ran a headline reading “Donald Trump defends size of his penis,” the man has probably won yet again.
The same was true of last night. The very reason why conventional wisdom regularly delivers the death knell to Trump's candidacy is the same reason he appeals to his supporters and continues to outflank his opponents. In that contest the risible comments by @Speedy were an object lesson. He completely misreads Trumpophilia.
Two points I'd highlight from the debate. Firstly according to CNN research Trump dominated the airtime in the debate by a margin of 2:1 over any other candidate and secondly the killer moment for me was when the other candidates were forced to endorse a Trump candidacy if he were the nominee. The grin on Trump's face said it all - his small hands had them all by the goolies regardless of the size of their todger.
Jack W. How do you rate Trump's current odds in terms of value?
GOP nominee 1.53-1.54 POTUS 4.9-5.0
The nominee odds look too skinny. It'll be Trump unless he marginally falls short and a brokered convention ensues. With many winner takes all primaries looming and Trump's poll numbers holding up a brokered convention looks vanishingly unlikely.
The POTUS odds remain value as a trading bet. There's bound to be a shortening movement during the campaign. The trick, as ever, will be when to cash in.
Thanks. That's how I see it too. Trump's implied odds for POTUS once he's nominee are 3.2 which seem too big to me. But of course the attacks on him by his "own side" won't help his ultimate bid to be POTUS.
I see a bit more value in POTUS at this stage rather than Rep Nom.
You could always take the 8-15 DEM from Skybet and back Trump on Betfair if you don't mind tieing up stake and are feeling particularly cautious.
'The negotiations were not about reforming the EU'
...and the revisionism continues. Compare and contrast this statement with everything the Prime Minister said about these negotiations before they began, during the process and immediately after.
Here are Cameron's own words about reforming the EU.
This is the game we play after every Republican debate: the mainstream press corps finds some tortured explanation for why Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz won, and then days later Donald Trump rises in the polls. In a night where CNN ran a headline reading “Donald Trump defends size of his penis,” the man has probably won yet again.
The same was true of last night. The very reason why conventional wisdom regularly delivers the death knell to Trump's candidacy is the same reason he appeals to his supporters and continues to outflank his opponents. In that contest the risible comments by @Speedy were an object lesson. He completely misreads Trumpophilia.
Two points I'd highlight from the debate. Firstly according to CNN research Trump dominated the airtime in the debate by a margin of 2:1 over any other candidate and secondly the killer moment for me was when the other candidates were forced to endorse a Trump candidacy if he were the nominee. The grin on Trump's face said it all - his small hands had them all by the goolies regardless of the size of their todger.
Jack W. How do you rate Trump's current odds in terms of value?
GOP nominee 1.53-1.54 POTUS 4.9-5.0
The nominee odds look too skinny. It'll be Trump unless he marginally falls short and a brokered convention ensues. With many winner takes all primaries looming and Trump's poll numbers holding up a brokered convention looks vanishingly unlikely.
The POTUS odds remain value as a trading bet. There's bound to be a shortening movement during the campaign. The trick, as ever, will be when to cash in.
Jack how is your ARSE looking in terms of DTWNBPOTUS against DTICIPOTUS?
In fine shape.
Clearly we're still a few months away from the formal unveiling of my ARSE for POTUS and there are some internals to be worked on but I hope as usual to provide an unparalleled and exclusive service to the PB community as in 08 and 12.
Notwithstanding the above I can confidently confirm that for 2016 :
Donald Trump Will Not Be Elected President of The United States
Towards the end of the 1975 European referendum campaign, someone produced a spoof political broadcast warning of the dire consequences if we voted to leave.
Britain would be invaded by poisonous snakes, many of them millions of miles long, who would creep into our homes in the dead of night and eat our children in their beds.
...I can only assume that someone at this year's Remain campaign has stumbled across this sketch in the archives, failed to realise it was a joke, and has taken it as a blueprint for scaring us to vote to stay in the EU.
This morning I was talking to a non-political friend, who takes little or no interest in politics most of the time, suddenly raised the EU with me. His family own a flat in Spain - he seemed genuinely fearful about what could happen to it if we leave. "I couldn't sell it, all the Brits would be leaving, they would lose free healthcare etc etc". He said the EU ref was desperately important to him and leaving would be a disaster.
Project Fear is working. And there will be more......
'The negotiations were not about reforming the EU'
...and the revisionism continues. Compare and contrast this statement with everything the Prime Minister said about these negotiations before they began, during the process and immediately after.
Andrew Neil made the point on This Week that it's incredible to contrast Cameron's statements but a few weeks back - that he would lead the Brexit charge, if he didn't get the miniscule changes he was demanding** with Cameron now predicting Armageddon if we leave.
Tell you what. Stop making personal points. I don't think I've ever been rude to you.
You're voting Remain for understable personal reasons given you're an expat. I have a different view that this is a strategic decision that will impact the lives of Brits for another 40 yrs, and long after my demise.
Towards the end of the 1975 European referendum campaign, someone produced a spoof political broadcast warning of the dire consequences if we voted to leave.
Britain would be invaded by poisonous snakes, many of them millions of miles long, who would creep into our homes in the dead of night and eat our children in their beds.
...I can only assume that someone at this year's Remain campaign has stumbled across this sketch in the archives, failed to realise it was a joke, and has taken it as a blueprint for scaring us to vote to stay in the EU.
This is the game we play after every Republican debate: the mainstream press corps finds some tortured explanation for why Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz won, and then days later Donald Trump rises in the polls. In a night where CNN ran a headline reading “Donald Trump defends size of his penis,” the man has probably won yet again.
The same was true of last night. The very reason why conventional wisdom regularly delivers the death knell to Trump's candidacy is the same reason he appeals to his supporters and continues to outflank his opponents. In that contest the risible comments by @Speedy were an object lesson. He completely misreads Trumpophilia.
Two points I'd highlight from the debate. Firstly according to CNN research Trump dominated the airtime in the debate by a margin of 2:1 over any other candidate and secondly the killer moment for me was when the other candidates were forced to endorse a Trump candidacy if he were the nominee. The grin on Trump's face said it all - his small hands had them all by the goolies regardless of the size of their todger.
Jack W. How do you rate Trump's current odds in terms of value?
GOP nominee 1.53-1.54 POTUS 4.9-5.0
The nominee odds look too skinny. It'll be Trump unless he marginally falls short and a brokered convention ensues. With many winner takes all primaries looming and Trump's poll numbers holding up a brokered convention looks vanishingly unlikely.
The POTUS odds remain value as a trading bet. There's bound to be a shortening movement during the campaign. The trick, as ever, will be when to cash in.
Thanks. That's how I see it too. Trump's implied odds for POTUS once he's nominee are 3.2 which seem too big to me. But of course the attacks on him by his "own side" won't help his ultimate bid to be POTUS.
I see a bit more value in POTUS at this stage rather than Rep Nom.
You could always take the 8-15 DEM from Skybet and back Trump on Betfair if you don't mind tieing up stake and are feeling particularly cautious.
For those interested on the possibility of a contested convention. FiveThirtyEight have a tracker of whether The Donald is on target with delegates. He is 113% of target at present, apparently:
Tory members far less bothered about the EU than is apparent from reading some of the posters on here. Who knew?
I've written Sunday's thread on that, headlined
Not even Tory members are obsessed about the EU, so if you are, then you're a loon in a minority.
I'll waste no time in reading your cogitations. Thanks for the spoiler.
ROFL - nothing like an open mind
And you have nothing like an open mind.
Another one who doesn't want to read the poll info.
I read the poll info in May thanks, turned out to be as funny as the Daily Meeks.
The poll was done a few days ago - do keep up.
Nigel was referring to the lack of accuracy of the polls ahead of last year's GE. Do keep up.
I agree there are problems with polling - not least over this issue - doesn't mean on this site they get ignored. BTW are you standing in as he's on a break?
Towards the end of the 1975 European referendum campaign, someone produced a spoof political broadcast warning of the dire consequences if we voted to leave.
Britain would be invaded by poisonous snakes, many of them millions of miles long, who would creep into our homes in the dead of night and eat our children in their beds.
...I can only assume that someone at this year's Remain campaign has stumbled across this sketch in the archives, failed to realise it was a joke, and has taken it as a blueprint for scaring us to vote to stay in the EU.
This morning I was talking to a non-political friend, who takes little or no interest in politics most of the time, suddenly raised the EU with me. His family own a flat in Spain - he seemed genuinely fearful about what could happen to it if we leave. "I couldn't sell it, all the Brits would be leaving, they would lose free healthcare etc etc". He said the EU ref was desperately important to him and leaving would be a disaster.
Project Fear is working. And there will be more......
As one if the guilty parties in the bad language and insults game I would like to propose a truce.
OGH is on Daily Politics today and that is likely to drag in a lot of extra interest in the site. Given that a lot if us are regulars who want this site to survive and thrive can I suggest that for the next couple of days we try and get rid of the insults and swearing. I realise that for some of us - me included - that is like trying to get Father Jack to give up drink but I figure the last thing people want to see when get visit to see what we are about is insults and personal attacks.
As one if the guilty parties in the bad language and insults game I would like to propose a truce.
OGH is on Daily Politics today and that is likely to drag in a lot of extra interest in the site. Given that a lot if us are regulars who want this site to survive and thrive can I suggest that for the next couple of days we try and get rid of the insults and swearing. I realise that for some of us - me included - that is like trying to get Father Jack to give up drink but I figure the last thing people want to see when get visit to see what we are about is insults and personal attacks.
This is the game we play after every Republican debate: the mainstream press corps finds some tortured explanation for why Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz won, and then days later Donald Trump rises in the polls. In a night where CNN ran a headline reading “Donald Trump defends size of his penis,” the man has probably won yet again.
The same was true of last night. The very reason why conventional wisdom regularly delivers the death knell to Trump's candidacy is the same reason he appeals to his supporters and continues to outflank his opponents. In that contest the risible comments by @Speedy were an object lesson. He completely misreads Trumpophilia.
Two points I'd highlight from the debate. Firstly according to CNN research Trump dominated the airtime in the debate by a margin of 2:1 over any other candidate and secondly the killer moment for me was when the other candidates were forced to endorse a Trump candidacy if he were the nominee. The grin on Trump's face said it all - his small hands had them all by the goolies regardless of the size of their todger.
Jack W. How do you rate Trump's current odds in terms of value?
GOP nominee 1.53-1.54 POTUS 4.9-5.0
The nominee odds look too skinny. It'll be Trump unless he marginally falls short and a brokered convention ensues. With many winner takes all primaries looming and Trump's poll numbers holding up a brokered convention looks vanishingly unlikely.
The POTUS odds remain value as a trading bet. There's bound to be a shortening movement during the campaign. The trick, as ever, will be when to cash in.
Jack how is your ARSE looking in terms of DTWNBPOTUS against DTICIPOTUS?
In fine shape.
Clearly we're still a few months away from the formal unveiling of my ARSE for POTUS and there are some internals to be worked on but I hope as usual to provide an unparalleled and exclusive service to the PB community as in 08 and 12.
Notwithstanding the above I can confidently confirm that for 2016 :
Donald Trump Will Not Be Elected President of The United States
DTWNBEPOTUS
When do you anticipate the first exertions of your EuroARSE? I am on tenterhooks.
As one if the guilty parties in the bad language and insults game I would like to propose a truce.
OGH is on Daily Politics today and that is likely to drag in a lot of extra interest in the site. Given that a lot if us are regulars who want this site to survive and thrive can I suggest that for the next couple of days we try and get rid of the insults and swearing. I realise that for some of us - me included - that is like trying to get Father Jack to give up drink but I figure the last thing people want to see when get visit to see what we are about is insults and personal attacks.
Tory members far less bothered about the EU than is apparent from reading some of the posters on here. Who knew?
I've written Sunday's thread on that, headlined
Not even Tory members are obsessed about the EU, so if you are, then you're a loon in a minority.
Labour members are deliriously happy with Corbyn. Three million Labour voters are not.
What is the evidence that the voters are turning away from Cam's Conservative party?
The evidence that he is on the wrong side of his 2015 vote over the EU is contained in poll after poll.
Imagining that opposition will remain permanently comatose under Corbyn is a dangerous game.
When the economy turns, and it shows signs that it already is, Cameron and Osborne will become the Blue Blair and Brown.
We had 5 years of this sort of nonsense after 2010 - your nerves are frayed - guess who the PM and CoE are?
They were elected to do a repair job.
Only fools would have expected it to be done on day one.
It is now year six. Therein lies the difference.
Surely the big difference is that the Tory poll lead is somewhat bigger now than it was for most of the last Parliament. I'm not being complacent but I think it's best not to get over-excited by things like monthly PMIs or the shenanigans over the referendum which the sceptics wanted and Cameron has delivered.
London’s technology sector could employ talent from the UK.
I don't think there are that many unemployed 24 year old computer science graduates in the UK.
A friend of mine was made redundant a week ago, he had an interview yesterday for a job that pays £50k, today he was given it subject to referencing. There is a massive skills shortage in the sector.
London already sucks in so much ComSci talent from the rest of the country. My cousin from Scotland came down last year for a job with Parkopedia and isn't going back to Glasgow for love nor money.
Isn't it remarkable that Cameron is so weak that he's forced to allow such a level of disloyalty from IDS a man with a history of disloyalty?
It shows how weak his position in his own party is and for he has Jeremy Corbyn to thank. With even a half decent opposition IDS would be out on his ear after calling his own leader 'dishonest'
No it isn't. Its the price of having won the election, allowing free debate on the EU... The Dave bashers on here are so one eyed, its scarcely readable..
and the sycophants have their lips to close to his @rse they can't see what is happening in the world.
They missed seeing a supine Cameron cowering before Hollande on behalf of a 'weak and weedy' Britain 'incapable of making it in the world alone', in Amiens yesterday.
What an unedifying spectacle.
" Lions led by donkeys ". I wish Donkey Dave would go away.
Dave's centrist mush increasingly resembles the under-performing, under-delivering Blair's. When he talks about the NHS he babbles on about 'inputs' in typical New Labour way.
This week's Markit PMIs when looked at in conjunction with Public Sector Finances and Migration figures point to a whole stack of trouble just around the bend and an economy and public sector no better placed than when Brown was at number 11.
It is becoming clearer that Cameron and Osborne are not fit for purpose.
As one if the guilty parties in the bad language and insults game I would like to propose a truce.
OGH is on Daily Politics today and that is likely to drag in a lot of extra interest in the site. Given that a lot if us are regulars who want this site to survive and thrive can I suggest that for the next couple of days we try and get rid of the insults and swearing. I realise that for some of us - me included - that is like trying to get Father Jack to give up drink but I figure the last thing people want to see when get visit to see what we are about is insults and personal attacks.
Just a suggestion.
Well said.
Can't we just stick with personal insults which have nothing to do with politics Dorothy ?
Tory members far less bothered about the EU than is apparent from reading some of the posters on here. Who knew?
I've written Sunday's thread on that, headlined
Not even Tory members are obsessed about the EU, so if you are, then you're a loon in a minority.
I'll waste no time in reading your cogitations. Thanks for the spoiler.
ROFL - nothing like an open mind
And you have nothing like an open mind.
Another one who doesn't want to read the poll info.
I read the poll info in May thanks, turned out to be as funny as the Daily Meeks.
The poll was done a few days ago - do keep up.
Nigel was referring to the lack of accuracy of the polls ahead of last year's GE. Do keep up.
I agree there are problems with polling - not least over this issue - doesn't mean on this site they get ignored. BTW are you standing in as he's on a break?
Towards the end of the 1975 European referendum campaign, someone produced a spoof political broadcast warning of the dire consequences if we voted to leave.
Britain would be invaded by poisonous snakes, many of them millions of miles long, who would creep into our homes in the dead of night and eat our children in their beds.
...I can only assume that someone at this year's Remain campaign has stumbled across this sketch in the archives, failed to realise it was a joke, and has taken it as a blueprint for scaring us to vote to stay in the EU.
This morning I was talking to a non-political friend, who takes little or no interest in politics most of the time, suddenly raised the EU with me. His family own a flat in Spain - he seemed genuinely fearful about what could happen to it if we leave. "I couldn't sell it, all the Brits would be leaving, they would lose free healthcare etc etc". He said the EU ref was desperately important to him and leaving would be a disaster.
Project Fear is working. And there will be more......
Cameron no longer needs the Tory Party - this is about his place in history. He does not want to go down as the PM who destroyed the EU, and potentially broke up the UK. For many people Europe is an issue which transcends party loyalty. Cameron managed to kid many Tories that he put the Party first, but he was dissembling. There was never any possibility he would take the side of Leave.
Towards the end of the 1975 European referendum campaign, someone produced a spoof political broadcast warning of the dire consequences if we voted to leave.
Britain would be invaded by poisonous snakes, many of them millions of miles long, who would creep into our homes in the dead of night and eat our children in their beds.
...I can only assume that someone at this year's Remain campaign has stumbled across this sketch in the archives, failed to realise it was a joke, and has taken it as a blueprint for scaring us to vote to stay in the EU.
This morning I was talking to a non-political friend, who takes little or no interest in politics most of the time, suddenly raised the EU with me. His family own a flat in Spain - he seemed genuinely fearful about what could happen to it if we leave. "I couldn't sell it, all the Brits would be leaving, they would lose free healthcare etc etc". He said the EU ref was desperately important to him and leaving would be a disaster.
Project Fear is working. And there will be more......
Not the view of most members according to the polling and most of the cabinet 'remain[ed]' onside.
Tory members far less bothered about the EU than is apparent from reading some of the posters on here. Who knew?
I've written Sunday's thread on that, headlined
Not even Tory members are obsessed about the EU, so if you are, then you're a loon in a minority.
I'll waste no time in reading your cogitations. Thanks for the spoiler.
ROFL - nothing like an open mind
And you have nothing like an open mind.
Another one who doesn't want to read the poll info.
I read the poll info in May thanks, turned out to be as funny as the Daily Meeks.
The poll was done a few days ago - do keep up.
Nigel was referring to the lack of accuracy of the polls ahead of last year's GE. Do keep up.
I agree there are problems with polling - not least over this issue - doesn't mean on this site they get ignored. BTW are you standing in as he's on a break?
As one if the guilty parties in the bad language and insults game I would like to propose a truce.
OGH is on Daily Politics today and that is likely to drag in a lot of extra interest in the site. Given that a lot if us are regulars who want this site to survive and thrive can I suggest that for the next couple of days we try and get rid of the insults and swearing. I realise that for some of us - me included - that is like trying to get Father Jack to give up drink but I figure the last thing people want to see when get visit to see what we are about is insults and personal attacks.
Just a suggestion.
Well said.
Can't we just stick with personal insults which have nothing to do with politics Dorothy ?
Isn't it remarkable that Cameron is so weak that he's forced to allow such a level of disloyalty from IDS a man with a history of disloyalty?
It shows how weak his position in his own party is and for he has Jeremy Corbyn to thank. With even a half decent opposition IDS would be out on his ear after calling his own leader 'dishonest'
No it isn't. Its the price of having won the election, allowing free debate on the EU... The Dave bashers on here are so one eyed, its scarcely readable..
and the sycophants have their lips to close to his @rse they can't see what is happening in the world.
They missed seeing a supine Cameron cowering before Hollande on behalf of a 'weak and weedy' Britain 'incapable of making it in the world alone', in Amiens yesterday.
What an unedifying spectacle.
" Lions led by donkeys ". I wish Donkey Dave would go away.
Dave's centrist mush increasingly resembles the under-performing, under-delivering Blair's. When he talks about the NHS he babbles on about 'inputs' in typical New Labour way.
This week's Markit PMIs when looked at in conjunction with Public Sector Finances and Migration figures point to a whole stack of trouble just around the bend and an economy and public sector no better placed than when Brown was at number 11.
It is becoming clearer that Cameron and Osborne are not fit for purpose.
And yet somehow one is Prime Minister, the other Chancellor of the Exchequer....posts they have occupied for nearly six years.....
As one if the guilty parties in the bad language and insults game I would like to propose a truce.
OGH is on Daily Politics today and that is likely to drag in a lot of extra interest in the site. Given that a lot if us are regulars who want this site to survive and thrive can I suggest that for the next couple of days we try and get rid of the insults and swearing. I realise that for some of us - me included - that is like trying to get Father Jack to give up drink but I figure the last thing people want to see when get visit to see what we are about is insults and personal attacks.
Just a suggestion.
Well said.
Can't we just stick with personal insults which have nothing to do with politics Dorothy ?
Tory members far less bothered about the EU than is apparent from reading some of the posters on here. Who knew?
I've written Sunday's thread on that, headlined
Not even Tory members are obsessed about the EU, so if you are, then you're a loon in a minority.
I'll waste no time in reading your cogitations. Thanks for the spoiler.
ROFL - nothing like an open mind
And you have nothing like an open mind.
Another one who doesn't want to read the poll info.
I read the poll info in May thanks, turned out to be as funny as the Daily Meeks.
The poll was done a few days ago - do keep up.
Nigel was referring to the lack of accuracy of the polls ahead of last year's GE. Do keep up.
I agree there are problems with polling - not least over this issue - doesn't mean on this site they get ignored. BTW are you standing in as he's on a break?
As one if the guilty parties in the bad language and insults game I would like to propose a truce.
OGH is on Daily Politics today and that is likely to drag in a lot of extra interest in the site. Given that a lot if us are regulars who want this site to survive and thrive can I suggest that for the next couple of days we try and get rid of the insults and swearing. I realise that for some of us - me included - that is like trying to get Father Jack to give up drink but I figure the last thing people want to see when get visit to see what we are about is insults and personal attacks.
Just a suggestion.
Well said.
Can't we just stick with personal insults which have nothing to do with politics Dorothy ?
Isn't it remarkable that Cameron is so weak that he's forced to allow such a level of disloyalty from IDS a man with a history of disloyalty?
It shows how weak his position in his own party is and for he has Jeremy Corbyn to thank. With even a half decent opposition IDS would be out on his ear after calling his own leader 'dishonest'
No it isn't. Its the price of having won the election, allowing free debate on the EU... The Dave bashers on here are so one eyed, its scarcely readable..
and the sycophants have their lips to close to his @rse they can't see what is happening in the world.
They missed seeing a supine Cameron cowering before Hollande on behalf of a 'weak and weedy' Britain 'incapable of making it in the world alone', in Amiens yesterday.
What an unedifying spectacle.
" Lions led by donkeys ". I wish Donkey Dave would go away.
Dave's centrist mush increasingly resembles the under-performing, under-delivering Blair's. When he talks about the NHS he babbles on about 'inputs' in typical New Labour way.
This week's Markit PMIs when looked at in conjunction with Public Sector Finances and Migration figures point to a whole stack of trouble just around the bend and an economy and public sector no better placed than when Brown was at number 11.
It is becoming clearer that Cameron and Osborne are not fit for purpose.
And yet somehow one is Prime Minister, the other Chancellor of the Exchequer....posts they have occupied for nearly six years.....
As one if the guilty parties in the bad language and insults game I would like to propose a truce.
OGH is on Daily Politics today and that is likely to drag in a lot of extra interest in the site. Given that a lot if us are regulars who want this site to survive and thrive can I suggest that for the next couple of days we try and get rid of the insults and swearing. I realise that for some of us - me included - that is like trying to get Father Jack to give up drink but I figure the last thing people want to see when get visit to see what we are about is insults and personal attacks.
Tory members far less bothered about the EU than is apparent from reading some of the posters on here. Who knew?
I've written Sunday's thread on that, headlined
Not even Tory members are obsessed about the EU, so if you are, then you're a loon in a minority.
I'll waste no time in reading your cogitations. Thanks for the spoiler.
ROFL - nothing like an open mind
And you have nothing like an open mind.
Another one who doesn't want to read the poll info.
I read the poll info in May thanks, turned out to be as funny as the Daily Meeks.
The poll was done a few days ago - do keep up.
Nigel was referring to the lack of accuracy of the polls ahead of last year's GE. Do keep up.
I agree there are problems with polling - not least over this issue - doesn't mean on this site they get ignored. BTW are you standing in as he's on a break?
As one if the guilty parties in the bad language and insults game I would like to propose a truce.
OGH is on Daily Politics today and that is likely to drag in a lot of extra interest in the site. Given that a lot if us are regulars who want this site to survive and thrive can I suggest that for the next couple of days we try and get rid of the insults and swearing. I realise that for some of us - me included - that is like trying to get Father Jack to give up drink but I figure the last thing people want to see when get visit to see what we are about is insults and personal attacks.
Just a suggestion.
Well said.
Can't we just stick with personal insults which have nothing to do with politics Dorothy ?
Isn't it remarkable that Cameron is so weak that he's forced to allow such a level of disloyalty from IDS a man with a history of disloyalty?
It shows how weak his position in his own party is and for he has Jeremy Corbyn to thank. With even a half decent opposition IDS would be out on his ear after calling his own leader 'dishonest'
No it isn't. Its the price of having won the election, allowing free debate on the EU... The Dave bashers on here are so one eyed, its scarcely readable..
and the sycophants have their lips to close to his @rse they can't see what is happening in the world.
They missed seeing a supine Cameron cowering before Hollande on behalf of a 'weak and weedy' Britain 'incapable of making it in the world alone', in Amiens yesterday.
What an unedifying spectacle.
" Lions led by donkeys ". I wish Donkey Dave would go away.
Dave's centrist mush increasingly resembles the under-performing, under-delivering Blair's. When he talks about the NHS he babbles on about 'inputs' in typical New Labour way.
This week's Markit PMIs when looked at in conjunction with Public Sector Finances and Migration figures point to a whole stack of trouble just around the bend and an economy and public sector no better placed than when Brown was at number 11.
It is becoming clearer that Cameron and Osborne are not fit for purpose.
And yet somehow one is Prime Minister, the other Chancellor of the Exchequer....posts they have occupied for nearly six years.....
Osborne is not the chancellor on merit, he is there because his best mate lives next door. I don't agree that Dave isn't fit for purpose, I think he is a pretty good PM, if he hadn't fumbled so badly with the EU negotiation then he could have gone down as one of the greats.
It is a long time ago now, when I was a very young lecturer at Imperial in the maths department I taught a lot of courses for computer science undergrads. I don't think the computer science degree added much of use day to day. The two best programers I know are an ex squaddie and an ex Plessey wireman. The generic computer science graduates came and went without leaving much trace.
Before the war you would have a 5 year apprenticeship in watch repairing - compressed to 6 months during the war. Why not 6 month courses in applicable software training, companies could sponser the course to match their needs. Commercial programming isn't an IQ test...
As one if the guilty parties in the bad language and insults game I would like to propose a truce.
OGH is on Daily Politics today and that is likely to drag in a lot of extra interest in the site. Given that a lot if us are regulars who want this site to survive and thrive can I suggest that for the next couple of days we try and get rid of the insults and swearing. I realise that for some of us - me included - that is like trying to get Father Jack to give up drink but I figure the last thing people want to see when get visit to see what we are about is insults and personal attacks.
Just a suggestion.
Well said.
But what when all these new visitors to the site discover they have been sold a false prospectus? Can't we at least still fight about the Punic Wars?
As Aneurin Bevan advised Winston Churchill, why look in the crystal ball when we can read the book? The obvious book to read is the ‘Book of Countries Which Have Left the EU’. It is, alas, both short and written in Inuit.
This is the game we play after every Republican debate: the mainstream press corps finds some tortured explanation for why Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz won, and then days later Donald Trump rises in the polls. In a night where CNN ran a headline reading “Donald Trump defends size of his penis,” the man has probably won yet again.
The same was true of last night. The very reason why conventional wisdom regularly delivers the death knell to Trump's candidacy is the same reason he appeals to his supporters and continues to outflank his opponents. In that contest the risible comments by @Speedy were an object lesson. He completely misreads Trumpophilia.
Two points I'd highlight from the debate. Firstly according to CNN research Trump dominated the airtime in the debate by a margin of 2:1 over any other candidate and secondly the killer moment for me was when the other candidates were forced to endorse a Trump candidacy if he were the nominee. The grin on Trump's face said it all - his small hands had them all by the goolies regardless of the size of their todger.
Jack W. How do you rate Trump's current odds in terms of value?
GOP nominee 1.53-1.54 POTUS 4.9-5.0
The nominee odds look too skinny. It'll be Trump unless he marginally falls short and a brokered convention ensues. With many winner takes all primaries looming and Trump's poll numbers holding up a brokered convention looks vanishingly unlikely.
The POTUS odds remain value as a trading bet. There's bound to be a shortening movement during the campaign. The trick, as ever, will be when to cash in.
Jack how is your ARSE looking in terms of DTWNBPOTUS against DTICIPOTUS?
In fine shape.
Clearly we're still a few months away from the formal unveiling of my ARSE for POTUS and there are some internals to be worked on but I hope as usual to provide an unparalleled and exclusive service to the PB community as in 08 and 12.
Notwithstanding the above I can confidently confirm that for 2016 :
Donald Trump Will Not Be Elected President of The United States
DTWNBEPOTUS
When do you anticipate the first exertions of your EuroARSE? I am on tenterhooks.
End of the month. A little later than I'd hoped ....
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Quite
and Leave's best chances are either to get a set of arguments on why we;re better off out ( ie lie as much as the other side ) or change the vote to a referendum on something else like the UK establishment ( the french option )
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Perhaps Leave are not being aggressive enough. They should be spreading fear about what will happen if we stay in. Its not as if there isn't enough ammunition.
An excellent illustration of just how gullible Merkel and the media are,just 29% of so called asylum seekers in 2015 were from Syria followed by 26% from 'Other' countries.
As Aneurin Bevan advised Winston Churchill, why look in the crystal ball when we can read the book? The obvious book to read is the ‘Book of Countries Which Have Left the EU’. It is, alas, both short and written in Inuit.
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Perhaps Leave are not being aggressive enough. They should be spreading fear about what will happen if we stay in. Its not as if there isn't enough ammunition.
The trouble is, we've been fed a steady diet of the calamity that is the EU and how disaster is just around to corner from Nigel & his merry men for years now......why should they start being believable now?
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Perhaps Leave are not being aggressive enough. They should be spreading fear about what will happen if we stay in. Its not as if there isn't enough ammunition.
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Perhaps Leave are not being aggressive enough. They should be spreading fear about what will happen if we stay in. Its not as if there isn't enough ammunition.
The trouble is, we've been fed a steady diet of the calamity that is the EU and how disaster is just around to corner from Nigel & his merry men for years now......why should they start being believable now?
It is a long time ago now, when I was a very young lecturer at Imperial in the maths department I taught a lot of courses for computer science undergrads. I don't think the computer science degree added much of use day to day. The two best programers I know are an ex squaddie and an ex Plessey wireman. The generic computer science graduates came and went without leaving much trace.
Before the war you would have a 5 year apprenticeship in watch repairing - compressed to 6 months during the war. Why not 6 month courses in applicable software training, companies could sponser the course to match their needs. Commercial programming isn't an IQ test...
Apparently there are " 'concerns from industry about the skills, agility and work-readiness' of computer science graduates."
So fits with your analysis.
I too taught programming a good few years ago. Many of the students were on combined courses with other subjects - they were the ones who really struggled with programming. I felt we were teaching them the wrong language - C++. Far too complicated for a first language. Bring back Pascal.
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Quite
and Leave's best chances are either to get a set of arguments on why we;re better off out ( ie lie as much as the other side ) or change the vote to a referendum on something else like the UK establishment ( the french option )
It is very hard for Leave to deal conclusively with the fear factor since they have to convince people that bad things - loss of trade, visa restrictions, hordes of jihadis coming through Calais etc etc - would NOT happen. Remain, on the other hand, does not have to convince people that bad things WOULD happen if we left - all they have to do is arouse fears that they MIGHT happen. This is much easier. At the moment Leave seem to have no coherent response to this dilemma. Dismissing BMW and the French government (and anyone else they disagree with) as scaremongers is wholly unconvincing.
'It's incredible to contrast Cameron's statements but a few weeks back - that he would lead the Brexit charge, if he didn't get the miniscule changes he was demanding** with Cameron now predicting Armageddon if we leave. '
It is a long time ago now, when I was a very young lecturer at Imperial in the maths department I taught a lot of courses for computer science undergrads. I don't think the computer science degree added much of use day to day. The two best programers I know are an ex squaddie and an ex Plessey wireman. The generic computer science graduates came and went without leaving much trace.
Before the war you would have a 5 year apprenticeship in watch repairing - compressed to 6 months during the war. Why not 6 month courses in applicable software training, companies could sponser the course to match their needs. Commercial programming isn't an IQ test...
Apparently there are " 'concerns from industry about the skills, agility and work-readiness' of computer science graduates."
So fits with your analysis.
I too taught programming a good few years ago. Many of the students were on combined courses with other subjects - they were the ones who really struggled with programming. I felt we were teaching them the wrong language - C++. Far too complicated for a first language. Bring back Pascal.
I see the subject that shrewides say LEAVE should avoid mentioning is top of people's concerns in the latest IPSOS MORI, while stories of Migrants causing havoc all over Europe dominate the headlines
But your average voter is motivated by the affect on the city and GDP they say...
You repeat this often, but I don’t think anyone is saying discussion on immigration should be ignored, just that such a blunt tool should not be the be all and end all of the Leave campaign.
This is the game we play after every Republican debate: the mainstream press corps finds some tortured explanation for why Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz won, and then days later Donald Trump rises in the polls. In a night where CNN ran a headline reading “Donald Trump defends size of his penis,” the man has probably won yet again.
The same was true of last night. The very reason why conventional wisdom regularly delivers the death knell to Trump's candidacy is the same reason he appeals to his supporters and continues to outflank his opponents. In that contest the risible comments by @Speedy were an object lesson. He completely misreads Trumpophilia.
Two points I'd highlight from the debate. Firstly according to CNN research Trump dominated the airtime in the debate by a margin of 2:1 over any other candidate and secondly the killer moment for me was when the other candidates were forced to endorse a Trump candidacy if he were the nominee. The grin on Trump's face said it all - his small hands had them all by the goolies regardless of the size of their todger.
Jack W. How do you rate Trump's current odds in terms of value?
GOP nominee 1.53-1.54 POTUS 4.9-5.0
The nominee odds look too skinny. It'll be Trump unless he marginally falls short and a brokered convention ensues. With many winner takes all primaries looming and Trump's poll numbers holding up a brokered convention looks vanishingly unlikely.
The POTUS odds remain value as a trading bet. There's bound to be a shortening movement during the campaign. The trick, as ever, will be when to cash in.
Jack how is your ARSE looking in terms of DTWNBPOTUS against DTICIPOTUS?
In fine shape.
Clearly we're still a few months away from the formal unveiling of my ARSE for POTUS and there are some internals to be worked on but I hope as usual to provide an unparalleled and exclusive service to the PB community as in 08 and 12.
Notwithstanding the above I can confidently confirm that for 2016 :
Donald Trump Will Not Be Elected President of The United States
DTWNBEPOTUS
Interesting.
Do let us know when the internals of your ARSE have been resolved.
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Quite
and Leave's best chances are either to get a set of arguments on why we;re better off out ( ie lie as much as the other side ) or change the vote to a referendum on something else like the UK establishment ( the french option )
It is very hard for Leave to deal conclusively with the fear factor since they have to convince people that bad things - loss of trade, visa restrictions, hordes of jihadis coming through Calais etc etc - would NOT happen. Remain, on the other hand, does not have to convince people that bad things WOULD happen if we left - all they have to do is arouse fears that they MIGHT happen. This is much easier. At the moment Leave seem to have no coherent response to this dilemma. Dismissing BMW and the French government (and anyone else they disagree with) as scaremongers is wholly unconvincing.
They should be using the Mandy Rice Davies defence and then go on the attack as to why big business is lining it's pockets at everyone elses expense.
There is still a very surly mood following the recession that the economic fruits are not fairly distributed - tie that to EU porkbarelling and Leave could hack in to a huge slew of voters on the left,
Leave are definitely playing defence, not offence right now.
And it's the Tories who are struggling with the unexpected assault from their own side.
Leave needs to decide how to deal with this whilst not alienating their colleagues and fellow friends. Fortunately, there's 100 days to go and Remain have deployed the kitchen sink already.
I think Cameron has made a massive error in his behaviour here. And know I'm not alone amongst members.
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Quite
and Leave's best chances are either to get a set of arguments on why we;re better off out ( ie lie as much as the other side ) or change the vote to a referendum on something else like the UK establishment ( the french option )
It is very hard for Leave to deal conclusively with the fear factor since they have to convince people that bad things - loss of trade, visa restrictions, hordes of jihadis coming through Calais etc etc - would NOT happen. Remain, on the other hand, does not have to convince people that bad things WOULD happen if we left - all they have to do is arouse fears that they MIGHT happen. This is much easier. At the moment Leave seem to have no coherent response to this dilemma. Dismissing BMW and the French government (and anyone else they disagree with) as scaremongers is wholly unconvincing.
It is a long time ago now, when I was a very young lecturer at Imperial in the maths department I taught a lot of courses for computer science undergrads. I don't think the computer science degree added much of use day to day. The two best programers I know are an ex squaddie and an ex Plessey wireman. The generic computer science graduates came and went without leaving much trace.
Before the war you would have a 5 year apprenticeship in watch repairing - compressed to 6 months during the war. Why not 6 month courses in applicable software training, companies could sponser the course to match their needs. Commercial programming isn't an IQ test...
Mrs Thatcher's government had that (sort of) for the long-term unemployed. I had to choose between a postgrad diploma in AI and six months of Unix and C. There were lots of non-computer courses too, iirc. Trouble is, the introduction of tuition fees makes it harder to repeat these offers, or would-be postgrads will game the system by leaving their jobs to qualify and save themselves £8,000 or whatever an MSc costs these days.
'They should be using the Mandy Rice Davies defence and then go on the attack as to why big business is lining it's pockets at everyone elses expense.'
Or just quote Lord Rose that EU exit will lead to higher wages.
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Quite
and Leave's best chances are either to get a set of arguments on why we;re better off out ( ie lie as much as the other side ) or change the vote to a referendum on something else like the UK establishment ( the french option )
It is very hard for Leave to deal conclusively with the fear factor since they have to convince people that bad things - loss of trade, visa restrictions, hordes of jihadis coming through Calais etc etc - would NOT happen. Remain, on the other hand, does not have to convince people that bad things WOULD happen if we left - all they have to do is arouse fears that they MIGHT happen. This is much easier. At the moment Leave seem to have no coherent response to this dilemma. Dismissing BMW and the French government (and anyone else they disagree with) as scaremongers is wholly unconvincing.
I think there's a good deal more cynicism towards the great and the good than there was, say, in 1975. So, I think the fear factor is less potent than it would once have been.
Isn't it remarkable that Cameron is so weak that he's forced to allow such a level of disloyalty from IDS a man with a history of disloyalty?
'
No it isn't. Its the price of having won the election, allowing free debate on the EU... The Dave bashers on here are so one eyed, its scarcely readable..
and the sycophants have their lips to close to his @rse they can't see what is happening in the world.
What an unedifying spectacle.
" Lions led by donkeys ". I wish Donkey Dave would go away.
Dave's centrist mush increasingly resembles the under-performing, under-delivering Blair's. When he talks about the NHS he babbles on about 'inputs' in typical New Labour way.
This week's Markit PMIs when looked at in conjunction with Public Sector Finances and Migration figures point to a whole stack of trouble just around the bend and an economy and public sector no better placed than when Brown was at number 11.
It is becoming clearer that Cameron and Osborne are not fit for purpose.
And yet somehow one is Prime Minister, the other Chancellor of the Exchequer....posts they have occupied for nearly six years.....
Osborne is not the chancellor on merit, he is there because his best mate lives next door. I don't agree that Dave isn't fit for purpose, I think he is a pretty good PM, if he hadn't fumbled so badly with the EU negotiation then he could have gone down as one of the greats.
People who actually know the EU, Lord Lawson for one, made it clear for years that there was never going to be a great renegotiation. And that was at a time when the Eurozone problems were all that were preoccupying them. Now you have the migration issue as well and yet we think there's going to be a fundamental re-arrangement in our relationship with the EU when everyone else is fixated elsewhere? It was a fantasy, one I never believed largely on the basis that the people who were persuaded by it seemed to have little grasp of the EU (watch Sue Cameron on the BBC night after the election programme for one).
Perhaps Cameron could have played his hand a little better but the bigger problem for him was that Flashman never really had any cash in the bank with other EU leaders (just as he doesn't with his own MPs). I know that's a novel concept for a lot of Tories who think international diplomacy is all about threatening people with handbags but it matters. The truth is no-one really likes Dave.
As one if the guilty parties in the bad language and insults game I would like to propose a truce.
OGH is on Daily Politics today and that is likely to drag in a lot of extra interest in the site. Given that a lot if us are regulars who want this site to survive and thrive can I suggest that for the next couple of days we try and get rid of the insults and swearing. I realise that for some of us - me included - that is like trying to get Father Jack to give up drink but I figure the last thing people want to see when get visit to see what we are about is insults and personal attacks.
Just a suggestion.
Well said.
But what when all these new visitors to the site discover they have been sold a false prospectus? Can't we at least still fight about the Punic Wars?
Leave are definitely playing defence, not offence right now.
And it's the Tories who are struggling with the unexpected assault from their own side.
Leave needs to decide how to deal with this whilst not alienating their colleagues and fellow friends. Fortunately, there's 100 days to go and Remain have deployed the kitchen sink already.
I think Cameron has made a massive error in his behaviour here. And know I'm not alone amongst members.
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Quite
and Leave's best chances are either to get a set of arguments on why we;re better off out ( ie lie as much as the other side ) or change the vote to a referendum on something else like the UK establishment ( the french option )
It is very hard for Leave to deal conclusively with the fear factor since they have to convince people that bad things - loss of trade, visa restrictions, hordes of jihadis coming through Calais etc etc - would NOT happen. Remain, on the other hand, does not have to convince people that bad things WOULD happen if we left - all they have to do is arouse fears that they MIGHT happen. This is much easier. At the moment Leave seem to have no coherent response to this dilemma. Dismissing BMW and the French government (and anyone else they disagree with) as scaremongers is wholly unconvincing.
While I'm quite vituperative about Osborne, I generally leave Dave alone as he does a reasonable job in the circumstances.
But yesterday ? In front of Hollande ? That was just demeaning, his frist real mistake in this campaign.
There's no point trying to trade on the authority of the office of PM and then standinng by like a chastened schoolboy while someone threatens the state you're meant to protect.
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Quite
and Leave's best chances are either to get a set of arguments on why we;re better off out ( ie lie as much as the other side ) or change the vote to a referendum on something else like the UK establishment ( the french option )
It is very hard for Leave to deal conclusively with the fear factor since they have to convince people that bad things - loss of trade, visa restrictions, hordes of jihadis coming through Calais etc etc - would NOT happen. Remain, on the other hand, does not have to convince people that bad things WOULD happen if we left - all they have to do is arouse fears that they MIGHT happen. This is much easier. At the moment Leave seem to have no coherent response to this dilemma. Dismissing BMW and the French government (and anyone else they disagree with) as scaremongers is wholly unconvincing.
I think there's a good deal more cynicism towards the great and the good than there was, say, in 1975. So, I think the fear factor is less potent than it would once have been.
But Leave aren't actively trading on that cynicism, so it's of limited value atm.
Leave are definitely playing defence, not offence right now.
And it's the Tories who are struggling with the unexpected assault from their own side.
Leave needs to decide how to deal with this whilst not alienating their colleagues and fellow friends. Fortunately, there's 100 days to go and Remain have deployed the kitchen sink already.
I think Cameron has made a massive error in his behaviour here. And know I'm not alone amongst members.
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Quite
and Leave's best chances are either to get a set of arguments on why we;re better off out ( ie lie as much as the other side ) or change the vote to a referendum on something else like the UK establishment ( the french option )
It is very hard for Leave to deal conclusively with the fear factor since they have to convince people that bad things - loss of trade, visa restrictions, hordes of jihadis coming through Calais etc etc - would NOT happen. Remain, on the other hand, does not have to convince people that bad things WOULD happen if we left - all they have to do is arouse fears that they MIGHT happen. This is much easier. At the moment Leave seem to have no coherent response to this dilemma. Dismissing BMW and the French government (and anyone else they disagree with) as scaremongers is wholly unconvincing.
While I'm quite vituperative about Osborne, I generally leave Dave alone as he does a reasonable job in the circumstances.
But yesterday ? In front of Hollande ? That was just demeaning, his frist real mistake in this campaign.
There's no point trying to trade on the authority of the office of PM and then standinng by like a chastened schoolboy while someone threatens the state you're meant to protect.
rottenborough - we can agree on Delphi, there is a lot to be said for a first language that produces visible results and is uncrashable - except that desktop products are so out of favour.
'They should be using the Mandy Rice Davies defence and then go on the attack as to why big business is lining it's pockets at everyone elses expense.'
Or just quote Lord Rose that EU exit will lead to higher wages.
Lord Rose says leave the EU and it's higher wages for YOU.
We say stay in the EU and it's higher wages for just HIM.
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Quite
and Leave's best chances are either to get a set of arguments on why we;re better off out ( ie lie as much as the other side ) or change the vote to a referendum on something else like the UK establishment ( the french option )
It is very hard for Leave to deal conclusively with the fear factor since they have to convince people that bad things - loss of trade, visa restrictions, hordes of jihadis coming through Calais etc etc - would NOT happen. Remain, on the other hand, does not have to convince people that bad things WOULD happen if we left - all they have to do is arouse fears that they MIGHT happen. This is much easier. At the moment Leave seem to have no coherent response to this dilemma. Dismissing BMW and the French government (and anyone else they disagree with) as scaremongers is wholly unconvincing.
They should be using the Mandy Rice Davies defence and then go on the attack as to why big business is lining it's pockets at everyone elses expense.
There is still a very surly mood following the recession that the economic fruits are not fairly distributed - tie that to EU porkbarelling and Leave could hack in to a huge slew of voters on the left,
My feeling is that 'Leave's' only chance is to ignore the scares and invent one of their own about immigrants. Farage has already done it but no one yet wants to be seen joining him in that sesspit.
But it's all 'Leave' have got that has any chance of gaining traction and though it's plainly false never underestimate the power of blind prejudice. Remember Michael Howard and his Gypsies? Shocking but it nearly worked
It is a long time ago now, when I was a very young lecturer at Imperial in the maths department I taught a lot of courses for computer science undergrads. I don't think the computer science degree added much of use day to day. The two best programers I know are an ex squaddie and an ex Plessey wireman. The generic computer science graduates came and went without leaving much trace.
Before the war you would have a 5 year apprenticeship in watch repairing - compressed to 6 months during the war. Why not 6 month courses in applicable software training, companies could sponser the course to match their needs. Commercial programming isn't an IQ test...
Mrs Thatcher's government had that (sort of) for the long-term unemployed. I had to choose between a postgrad diploma in AI and six months of Unix and C. There were lots of non-computer courses too, iirc. Trouble is, the introduction of tuition fees makes it harder to repeat these offers, or would-be postgrads will game the system by leaving their jobs to qualify and save themselves £8,000 or whatever an MSc costs these days.
An MSc course always cost £8000. You could argue it was gaming the system previously by taking it for free. As an interested question - is computer programming dependent on mathematics or scientific ability/knowledge? Is computer science really related to programming or does it lead to other fields of study/work?
Leave are definitely playing defence, not offence right now.
And it's the Tories who are struggling with the unexpected assault from their own side.
Leave needs to decide how to deal with this whilst not alienating their colleagues and fellow friends. Fortunately, there's 100 days to go and Remain have deployed the kitchen sink already.
I think Cameron has made a massive error in his behaviour here. And know I'm not alone amongst members.
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Quite
and Leave's best chances are either to get a set of arguments on why we;re better off out ( ie lie as much as the other side ) or change the vote to a referendum on something else like the UK establishment ( the french option )
It is very hard for Leave to deal conclusively with the fear factor since they have to convince people that bad things - loss of trade, visa restrictions, hordes of jihadis coming through Calais etc etc - would NOT happen. Remain, on the other hand, does not have to convince people that bad things WOULD happen if we left - all they have to do is arouse fears that they MIGHT happen. This is much easier. At the moment Leave seem to have no coherent response to this dilemma. Dismissing BMW and the French government (and anyone else they disagree with) as scaremongers is wholly unconvincing.
While I'm quite vituperative about Osborne, I generally leave Dave alone as he does a reasonable job in the circumstances.
But yesterday ? In front of Hollande ? That was just demeaning, his frist real mistake in this campaign.
There's no point trying to trade on the authority of the office of PM and then standinng by like a chastened schoolboy while someone threatens the state you're meant to protect.
It is a long time ago now, when I was a very young lecturer at Imperial in the maths department I taught a lot of courses for computer science undergrads. I don't think the computer science degree added much of use day to day. The two best programers I know are an ex squaddie and an ex Plessey wireman. The generic computer science graduates came and went without leaving much trace.
Before the war you would have a 5 year apprenticeship in watch repairing - compressed to 6 months during the war. Why not 6 month courses in applicable software training, companies could sponser the course to match their needs. Commercial programming isn't an IQ test...
Mrs Thatcher's government had that (sort of) for the long-term unemployed. I had to choose between a postgrad diploma in AI and six months of Unix and C. There were lots of non-computer courses too, iirc. Trouble is, the introduction of tuition fees makes it harder to repeat these offers, or would-be postgrads will game the system by leaving their jobs to qualify and save themselves £8,000 or whatever an MSc costs these days.
An MSc course always cost £8000. You could argue it was gaming the system previously by taking it for free. As an interested question - is computer programming dependent on mathematics or scientific ability/knowledge? Is computer science really related to programming or does it lead to other fields of study/work?
We should be careful not to confuse Computer Science and Computer Programming. Again, unfortunately many kids are mis-sold degrees under this guise.
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Quite
and Leave's best chances are either to get a set of arguments on why we;re better off out ( ie lie as much as the other side ) or change the vote to a referendum on something else like the UK establishment ( the french option )
It is very hard for Leave they disagree with) as scaremongers is wholly unconvincing.
They should be using the Mandy Rice Davies defence and then go on the attack as to why big business is lining it's pockets at everyone elses expense.
There is still a very surly mood following the recession that the economic fruits are not fairly distributed - tie that to EU porkbarelling and Leave could hack in to a huge slew of voters on the left,
My feeling is that 'Leave's' only chance is to ignore the scares and invent one of their own about immigrants. Farage has already done it but no one yet wants to be seen joining him in that sesspit. But it's all Leave have got that has any chance of gaining traction and though its plainly false never underestimate the power of blind prejudice. Remember Michael Howard and his Gypsies?
Nah Roger, the immigration argument has already been won for Leave they can refresh memories at any time. It would be like Germany invading Poland again because they're good at it.
They have to go on the attack on their opponents turf.and take on the eonomic argument. That means finding an angle that clicks with voters and puts Rewmain on the defensive.
Leave are definitely playing defence, not offence right now.
And it's the Tories who are struggling with the unexpected assault from their own side.
Leave needs to decide how to deal with this whilst not alienating their colleagues and fellow friends. Fortunately, there's 100 days to go and Remain have deployed the kitchen sink already.
I think Cameron has made a massive error in his behaviour here. And know I'm not alone amongst members.
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Quite
and Leave's best chances are either to get a set of arguments on why we;re better off out ( ie lie as much as the other side ) or change the vote to a referendum on something else like the UK establishment ( the french option )
It is very hard for Leave to deal conclusively with the fear factor since they have to convince people that bad things - loss of trade, visa restrictions, hordes of jihadis coming through Calais etc etc - would NOT happen. Remain, on the other hand, does not have to convince people that bad things WOULD happen if we left - all they have to do is arouse fears that they MIGHT happen. This is much easier. At the moment Leave seem to have no coherent response to this dilemma. Dismissing BMW and the French government (and anyone else they disagree with) as scaremongers is wholly unconvincing.
While I'm quite vituperative about Osborne, I generally leave Dave alone as he does a reasonable job in the circumstances.
But yesterday ? In front of Hollande ? That was just demeaning, his frist real mistake in this campaign.
There's no point trying to trade on the authority of the office of PM and then standinng by like a chastened schoolboy while someone threatens the state you're meant to protect.
Foolish
I couldn't agree more. It was so embarrassing watching him standing next to the grinning Hollande. He has totally miscalculated with this "Project Fear" and I think he knows it. I detect there may be some rowing back soon.
At the end of the day, this is OUR VOTE and politicians and the media should remember that.
@gabyhinsliff: The more indignant Outers get about Project Fear, the more I conclude it's working. Winning sides don't moan about the other's tactics.
That's a fair summation, Leave know they have an uphill task and are on the defensive.
Fear won the Indyref and the General Election. There is every sign that it will do the same in the EU referendum.
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
Quite
and Leave's best chances are either to get a set of arguments on why we;re better off out ( ie lie as much as the other side ) or change the vote to a referendum on something else like the UK establishment ( the french option )
It is very hard for Leave to deal conclusively with the fear factor since they have to convince people that bad things - loss of trade, visa restrictions, hordes of jihadis coming through Calais etc etc - would NOT happen. Remain, on the other hand, does not have to convince people that bad things WOULD happen if we left - all they have to do is arouse fears that they MIGHT happen. This is much easier. At the moment Leave seem to have no coherent response to this dilemma. Dismissing BMW and the French government (and anyone else they disagree with) as scaremongers is wholly unconvincing.
I think there's a good deal more cynicism towards the great and the good than there was, say, in 1975. So, I think the fear factor is less potent than it would once have been.
But Leave aren't actively trading on that cynicism, so it's of limited value atm.
The problem is that the only people on the Leave side with any mass credibility potential are all part of the great and the good. The Mayor of London and cabinet ministers railing against the establishment would make themselves look ridiculous.
Comments
:-)
...and the revisionism continues. Compare and contrast this statement with everything the Prime Minister said about these negotiations before they began, during the process and immediately after.
You're voting Remain for understable personal reasons given you're an expat. I have a different view that this is a strategic decision that will impact the lives of Brits for another 40 yrs, and long after my demise. I think you're overloading on the Daily Mail links - and I love their gossip pages.
You could always take the 8-15 DEM from Skybet and back Trump on Betfair if you don't mind tieing up stake and are feeling particularly cautious.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/10700644/David-Cameron-the-EU-is-not-working-and-we-will-change-it.html
And these -
'David Cameron to set out case for EU reform in Hamburg speech'
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/12/david-cameron-eu-reform-hamburg-speech-germany
David Cameron sets out EU reform goals
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34770875
Clearly we're still a few months away from the formal unveiling of my ARSE for POTUS and there are some internals to be worked on but I hope as usual to provide an unparalleled and exclusive service to the PB community as in 08 and 12.
Notwithstanding the above I can confidently confirm that for 2016 :
Donald Trump Will Not Be Elected President of The United States
DTWNBEPOTUS
This morning I was talking to a non-political friend, who takes little or no interest in politics most of the time, suddenly raised the EU with me. His family own a flat in Spain - he seemed genuinely fearful about what could happen to it if we leave. "I couldn't sell it, all the Brits would be leaving, they would lose free healthcare etc etc". He said the EU ref was desperately important to him and leaving would be a disaster.
Project Fear is working. And there will be more......
** He didn't get them.
Que??? My point was valid - it's a political debating site and I think you're overdoing the links.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trump-is-just-barely-on-track-to-win-the-gop-nomination/
Only fools would have expected it to be done on day one.
It is now year six. Therein lies the difference.
Leave expected Cameron to be a huge asset for Remain, but when he's pissing off his own loyal team - he needs to think again.
The Tories are bigger than one referendum or one man. I fear he's demob happy and forgotten this. Never expected to feel like this. This morning I was talking to a non-political friend, who takes little or no interest in politics most of the time, suddenly raised the EU with me. His family own a flat in Spain - he seemed genuinely fearful about what could happen to it if we leave. "I couldn't sell it, all the Brits would be leaving, they would lose free healthcare etc etc". He said the EU ref was desperately important to him and leaving would be a disaster.
Project Fear is working. And there will be more......
As one if the guilty parties in the bad language and insults game I would like to propose a truce.
OGH is on Daily Politics today and that is likely to drag in a lot of extra interest in the site. Given that a lot if us are regulars who want this site to survive and thrive can I suggest that for the next couple of days we try and get rid of the insults and swearing. I realise that for some of us - me included - that is like trying to get Father Jack to give up drink but I figure the last thing people want to see when get visit to see what we are about is insults and personal attacks.
Just a suggestion.
"Sir Nigel Shadbolt, notes that computer science has consistently had the highest rate of unemployed graduates of any subject in the UK."
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/features/what-should-we-be-teaching-the-next-generation-of-computer-scientists
London already sucks in so much ComSci talent from the rest of the country. My cousin from Scotland came down last year for a job with Parkopedia and isn't going back to Glasgow for love nor money.
Cameron no longer needs the Tory Party - this is about his place in history. He does not want to go down as the PM who destroyed the EU, and potentially broke up the UK. For many people Europe is an issue which transcends party loyalty. Cameron managed to kid many Tories that he put the Party first, but he was dissembling. There was never any possibility he would take the side of Leave.
Not the view of most members according to the polling and most of the cabinet 'remain[ed]' onside.
Talking about your friend again?
Concern about #EU stronger among ABs, those aged 65+ & people in the South: https://t.co/FVG2tIisPC https://t.co/4kdQXnnyeB
Before the war you would have a 5 year apprenticeship in watch repairing - compressed to 6 months during the war. Why not 6 month courses in applicable software training, companies could sponser the course to match their needs. Commercial programming isn't an IQ test...
But what when all these new visitors to the site discover they have been sold a false prospectus? Can't we at least still fight about the Punic Wars?
The obvious book to read is the ‘Book of Countries Which Have Left the EU’. It is, alas, both short and written in Inuit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12182032/A-British-free-trade-deal-outside-the-EU-History-shows-thats-easier-said-than-done.html
This is not about a rational debate - it is about winning.
and Leave's best chances are either to get a set of arguments on why we;re better off out ( ie lie as much as the other side ) or change the vote to a referendum on something else like the UK establishment ( the french option )
2015 first time asylum applicants Syria 363 000, Afghanistan 178 000, Iraq 122 000 #Eurostat https://t.co/hpRcn2Gs9F https://t.co/9AIhJFTBq3'
An excellent illustration of just how gullible Merkel and the media are,just 29% of so called asylum seekers in 2015 were from Syria followed by 26% from 'Other' countries.
Its really simple - blame your opponents - or look to yourselves.....which can you change?
Sanders to take Nebraska and Kansas.
Clinton to extend delegate lead with a big Lousiana win that overwhelms the two midwest states.
EU works for well off why not you
You've paid your taxes what about Amazon etc.
I wonder how much worse it is with Angela ?
So fits with your analysis.
I too taught programming a good few years ago. Many of the students were on combined courses with other subjects - they were the ones who really struggled with programming. I felt we were teaching them the wrong language - C++. Far too complicated for a first language. Bring back Pascal.
Yes he has been entirely inconsistent.
These days best to learn Javascript.
Do let us know when the internals of your ARSE have been resolved.
There is still a very surly mood following the recession that the economic fruits are not fairly distributed - tie that to EU porkbarelling and Leave could hack in to a huge slew of voters on the left,
And it's the Tories who are struggling with the unexpected assault from their own side.
Leave needs to decide how to deal with this whilst not alienating their colleagues and fellow friends. Fortunately, there's 100 days to go and Remain have deployed the kitchen sink already.
I think Cameron has made a massive error in his behaviour here. And know I'm not alone amongst members.
'They should be using the Mandy Rice Davies defence and then go on the attack as to why big business is lining it's pockets at everyone elses expense.'
Or just quote Lord Rose that EU exit will lead to higher wages.
Polling is all over the place.
Perhaps Cameron could have played his hand a little better but the bigger problem for him was that Flashman never really had any cash in the bank with other EU leaders (just as he doesn't with his own MPs). I know that's a novel concept for a lot of Tories who think international diplomacy is all about threatening people with handbags but it matters. The truth is no-one really likes Dave.
But yesterday ? In front of Hollande ? That was just demeaning, his frist real mistake in this campaign.
There's no point trying to trade on the authority of the office of PM and then standinng by like a chastened schoolboy while someone threatens the state you're meant to protect.
Foolish
"Foolish"
Desperate.
We say stay in the EU and it's higher wages for just HIM.
It's your choice.
But it's all 'Leave' have got that has any chance of gaining traction and though it's plainly false never underestimate the power of blind prejudice. Remember Michael Howard and his Gypsies? Shocking but it nearly worked
As an interested question - is computer programming dependent on mathematics or scientific ability/knowledge? Is computer science really related to programming or does it lead to other fields of study/work?
I wanted to shout What Are You Doing?!? at the TV.
When I feel that our own man isn't even trying to look after our national pride, there's not much left to say. It's visceral.
They have to go on the attack on their opponents turf.and take on the eonomic argument. That means finding an angle that clicks with voters and puts Rewmain on the defensive.
At the end of the day, this is OUR VOTE and politicians and the media should remember that.
'George Osborne is set to abandon a planned raid on middle-class pensions in the face of a Tory backlash.
Well-placed sources say the Chancellor will reluctantly drop plans to introduce a flat rate of tax relief on pensions in this month’s Budget.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3475761/Osborne-axes-plan-target-middle-class-pension-pots-backlash-Tories.html