Of course Out is Out. The issue is what Out actually means. Will it make it harder for British businesses to access the single market, will it lead to significant reductions in immigration and so on?
"Of course Out is Out."
Really? I saw dozens of posts on here claiming that Boris only wanted to LEAVE so he could hold a second referendum
As for repeatedly asking me what Boris thinks of things I know nothing about Im afraid I cant help you.. I get the feeling you don't like him!
I dislike his opportunism and intellectual dishonesty, and I think he will be a very poor PM/cabinet minister, but I know that you are going to end up disliking him a lot more than I will. He is never going to disappoint me or leave me feeling betrayed.
I can take or leave him to be honest, but he seems to be an asset for LEAVE
Of that there is no doubt. But we'll see how Leave voters think of him after he's negotiated the Brexit deal. Remember you heard it here first - he will not put free movement of goods, services and capital in peril to restrict free movement of peoples.
If Boris thinks being praised by Nigel Farage is a good idea he is bonkers.
Sadly, Boris's intervention hasn't given Leave the sprinkling of political stardust I'd hoped. His initial musing on using Leave as merely a glorified debating tool has rather gummed up the works. And agreed - Farage's sponsorship is neither here nor there. Neutral at best.
'John Brabender, the chief strategist for Rick Santorum’s campaign in 2012, adds:
“It speaks to the complexity of Donald Trump. I saw a poll out today, which had him leading in Texas, one leading in Florida, and one leading in Massachusetts. There’s an absurdity in that. You should not have a presidential candidate leading in all three of those states because the voting universes are so different.”
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
Doesn't worry me. Tory majority would still be likely, with a Leaver as leader (and Prime Minister) who the public would be happy to see negotiate our new settlement with Europe.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
Some men just want to watch the world burn. #oscars
'Voters will not be negotiating Brexit. This government will be. Being in the EEA means no significant change to current levels of EU immigration. Is that really just small print?'
Having a laugh ?
You seriously believe that if Leave wins, the government (most likely with a new PM) is going to ignore one of the main reasons for the Leave vote ?
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
That is just wishful thinking. The Conservative party will allow David Cameron to continue irrespective of the result though in the case of leave this may well be for an interim period until the party has decided on a successor. They are not going to get caught out by a No Confidence vote as the one thing the Conservative party possess that Labour does not is an absolute desire for power.
In the event of a leave vote has anyone considered how difficult it will be to get the legislation through the House of Lords who will have a majority pro remain
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
Doesn't worry me. Tory majority would still be likely, with a Leaver as leader (and Prime Minister) who the public would be happy to see negotiate our new settlement with Europe.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
I have to admit I would be more secure in my Leave vote if I knew what to expect from whoever (Boris) took over when Cameron goes. I'll still vote Leave, but that some people on the same side are selling it as not only Leaving but in cancelling out the premiership which otherwise I have no real objections to (other than being more incompetent than I would like, but in intent for the most part it's ok) and which I feel attempts to appeal to non-Tories on a centrish=centre right bent, does annoy somewhat. But internal party quagmires are up to them I guess.
If Farage does this then we know that he is putting his ego before winning the referendum. How long is UKIP going to be viable with antics like this? AFAIK Carswell controls the UKIP short money so UKIP's resources are going to be very limited going forward. http://news.sky.com/story/1648918/ukip-infighting-over-rival-leave-eu-campaigns
Whether you or I like it or not, Richard, immigration is Leave's biggest and most effective calling card.
1. It may be as you say but that doesn't mean it will be enough to win them the referendum on its own. 2. Since we are all clear on here what the status of immigration is with the various posters and their views on its impact on the campaign it is surely more constructive in terms of debate to look at the other areas that will be impacted by the referendum result. That is what many of the Leave side on here are doing and it is pointless for you to keep banging on about immigration in that case. 3. In the wider debate Leave have already won the immigration controls vote. Remain won't win those back. What you need to be doing is trying to win in the other areas where the real battleground lies. I almost get the impression the reason you and other Remain supporters spend so much time banging on about immigration is you are frightened you are losing the debate in other policy areas.
Your impression is wrong. I have no significant problem with the UK leaving the EU and being part of the EEA. That protects our unhindered access to the single market, which, I believe is vital. My point is a political one - I am not sure Leave will get close to a majority on that prospectus. The big calling card they have is significant reductions to immigration. That is a card that will be played with gusto and it can only lead to disappointment and, therefore, further ongoing uncertainty.
Put another way: the Tory version of Leave does not frighten me at all, but will not get Leave across the line; the UKIP version (or the Farsgr version, perhsps more accurately) frightens the life out of me, could get Leave a victory, but will never happen in practice. Politically, I find that fascinating.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
Doesn't worry me. Tory majority would still be likely, with a Leaver as leader (and Prime Minister) who the public would be happy to see negotiate our new settlement with Europe.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
Doesn't worry me. Tory majority would still be likely, with a Leaver as leader (and Prime Minister) who the public would be happy to see negotiate our new settlement with Europe.
Bill Cash could become leader and the Tories will still beat Labour in 2020. Labour under Corbyn are a complete irrelevance.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
Wishful thinking, Roger. No Tory MP is going to vote against the government on a parliamentary VoNC. If Leave MPs feel sufficiently strongly that Cameron should go then they simply need to write to the chairman of the 1922 cttee - there are more than enough to force an internal VoNC.
Why wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election? Under what circumstance do you see it happening?
If Farage does this then we know that he is putting his ego before winning the referendum. How long is UKIP going to be viable with antics like this? AFAIK Carswell controls the UKIP short money so UKIP's resources are going to be very limited going forward. http://news.sky.com/story/1648918/ukip-infighting-over-rival-leave-eu-campaigns
I never thought I would say this but the antics of Farage disgust me. He seems to be going out of his way to sabotage our chance of leaving the EU.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
Doesn't worry me. Tory majority would still be likely, with a Leaver as leader (and Prime Minister) who the public would be happy to see negotiate our new settlement with Europe.
Bill Cash could become leader and the Tories will still beat Labour in 2020. Labour under Corbyn are a complete irrelevance.
If Labour can find someone unappealing to the mass electorate, so can the Tories. At the very least the possibility if they choose a nutter that they might not win against even Corbyn cannot be discounted entirely. Why would a Tory nutter be more appealing than a Labour one?
In the event of a leave vote has anyone considered how difficult it will be to get the legislation through the House of Lords who will have a majority pro remain
It won't be a problem.
1. It's an election commitment backed by a referendum. It's highly unlikely that the Lords will play silly beggars. 2. If they do, the government can use the Parliament Act - the negotiations will take long enough to permit that. 3. If time becomes of the essence, the government can threaten the Lords with the nuclear option of full democratic reform, kicking out all the recalcitrants, many of whom would in this scenario either sit for a party that has little current democratic legitimacy, or be crossbench 'independents' with even less.
@JohnZims - Corbyn as LOTO gives the Tories free rein to do whatever they like. My sense is that more than half of the party's MPs would be prepared to accept an EEA-style agreement in order to preserve free movement of goods, capital and services. If that is the case, we are not going to see much difference day-to-day in how this country looks and feels (except Scotland might leave).
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
I have to admit I would be more secure in my Leave vote if I knew what to expect from whoever (Boris) took over when Cameron goes. I'll still vote Leave, but that some people on the same side are selling it as not only Leaving but in cancelling out the premiership which otherwise I have no real objections to (other than being more incompetent than I would like, but in intent for the most part it's ok) and which I feel attempts to appeal to non-Tories on a centrish=centre right bent, does annoy somewhat. But internal party quagmires are up to them I guess.
The referendum question is pretty simple, as are the consequences and position of the Nation after the vote, no matter which side wins:
The question is very simple: Leave or stay in the EU.
If Stay wins:
We may or may not have some opt outs, depending on your view. The Euro zone countries will have to integrate for the currency to survive.
We will be on the sidelines as far as the euro zone countries are concerned with modest to little influence.
If leave wins:
Cameron will invoke article 50 - a one way street out of the EU.
The government of the day (which may have a different PM) will be tasked with negotiating our exit and the best terms for UK outside the EU. Trade deals, EFTA and all that included.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
Doesn't worry me. Tory majority would still be likely, with a Leaver as leader (and Prime Minister) who the public would be happy to see negotiate our new settlement with Europe.
Deluded fantasy suicide .
Yes of course, Mark. Tim Farron would be marching into Downing Street wouldn't he, along with his massed ranks of MPs safe from defeat due to their local strength?
Fact is that even were a GE to follow the referendum, which it won't for many reasons, the Tories would win simply because Corbyn is unelectable. The data is there in the polls for anyone who can be bothered to look. CCHQ wouldn't even need to use the middlemen of Salmond and Sturgeon as scares this time; the LotO is more than enough by himself.
And a Labour campaign run by Corbyn and Milne will be as bad as 1983.
European Union officials aren’t just determined to keep mum during the U.K.’s referendum campaign: They are refusing to move key legislation out of fear that they might fuel support for a Brexit.
Officials and politicians said several EU initiatives have been put on ice or pushed off the agenda in an effort to avoid stirring up controversy before the June 23
@JohnZims - Corbyn as LOTO gives the Tories free rein to do whatever they like. My sense is that more than half of the party's MPs would be prepared to accept an EEA-style agreement in order to preserve free movement of goods, capital and services. If that is the case, we are not going to see much difference day-to-day in how this country looks and feels (except Scotland might leave).
The malignant growth of the SNP has occurred since the UK joined the Common Market,/EEC,/EU, post-liberation it will wither away.
If Farage does this then we know that he is putting his ego before winning the referendum. How long is UKIP going to be viable with antics like this? AFAIK Carswell controls the UKIP short money so UKIP's resources are going to be very limited going forward. http://news.sky.com/story/1648918/ukip-infighting-over-rival-leave-eu-campaigns
I never thought I would say this but the antics of Farage disgust me. He seems to be going out of his way to sabotage our chance of leaving the EU.
If Farage had stood down last summer and someone sensible and presentable such as Suzanne had taken over, then UKIP would today be in Vote Leave only and be building the links to a post referendum party on the right along with many Conservative LEAVE figures. Instead Farage is not only undermining the chances of a referendum but creating the split within UKIP which may see UKIP Vote Leave people co-operating with Conservatives post the referendum.
What Farage is doing will also help the Conservatives to stick together.
In the event of a leave vote has anyone considered how difficult it will be to get the legislation through the House of Lords who will have a majority pro remain
It won't be a problem.
1. It's an election commitment backed by a referendum. It's highly unlikely that the Lords will play silly beggars. 2. If they do, the government can use the Parliament Act - the negotiations will take long enough to permit that. 3. If time becomes of the essence, the government can threaten the Lords with the nuclear option of full democratic reform, kicking out all the recalcitrants, many of whom would in this scenario either sit for a party that has little current democratic legitimacy, or be crossbench 'independents' with even less.
If the Lords blocked the will of the people expressed by a referendum then they will be instantly abolished. Forget reform or packing the place with oodles of government peers, there would be Parliamentary revolution.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
Doesn't worry me. Tory majority would still be likely, with a Leaver as leader (and Prime Minister) who the public would be happy to see negotiate our new settlement with Europe.
Deluded fantasy suicide .
Yes of course, Mark. Tim Farron would be marching into Downing Street wouldn't he, along with his massed ranks of MPs safe from defeat due to their local strength?
Fact is that even were a GE to follow the referendum, which it won't for many reasons, the Tories would win simply because Corbyn is unelectable. The data is there in the polls for anyone who can be bothered to look. CCHQ wouldn't even need to use the middlemen of Salmond and Sturgeon as scares this time; the LotO is more than enough by himself.
And a Labour campaign run by Corbyn and Milne will be as bad as 1983.
If Farage does this then we know that he is putting his ego before winning the referendum. How long is UKIP going to be viable with antics like this? AFAIK Carswell controls the UKIP short money so UKIP's resources are going to be very limited going forward. http://news.sky.com/story/1648918/ukip-infighting-over-rival-leave-eu-campaigns
I never thought I would say this but the antics of Farage disgust me. He seems to be going out of his way to sabotage our chance of leaving the EU.
Yes, Leave's tactics and organization so far have been woeful. It's chaotic. Even I've lost track of which group represents whom and wants what. Leave Now, Go Now, No to EU, EU Out, Out from EU. It's a real bugger's muddle utterly bereft of leadership and focus. Two things need to happen. UKIP should close itself down - it's served its purpose and thanks for the memories, but is now more of a hindrance than a help. All Leavers should then unite beneath an unapologetically eclectic umbrella organization headed by Gove.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
I have to admit I would be more secure in my Leave vote if I knew what to expect from whoever (Boris) took over when Cameron goes. I'll still vote Leave, but that some people on the same side are selling it as not only Leaving but in cancelling out the premiership which otherwise I have no real objections to (other than being more incompetent than I would like, but in intent for the most part it's ok) and which I feel attempts to appeal to non-Tories on a centrish=centre right bent, does annoy somewhat. But internal party quagmires are up to them I guess.
The referendum question is pretty simple, as are the consequences and position of the Nation after the vote, no matter which side wins:
The question is very simple: Leave or stay in the EU.
If Stay wins:
We may or may not have some opt outs, depending on your view. The Euro zone countries will have to integrate for the currency to survive.
We will be on the sidelines as far as the euro zone countries are concerned with modest to little influence.
If leave wins:
Cameron will invoke article 50 - a one way street out of the EU.
The government of the day (which may have a different PM) will be tasked with negotiating our exit and the best terms for UK outside the EU. Trade deals, EFTA and all that included.
It's not the negotiation afterwards I'm concerned about in the event of Leave - it's general government policy. Cameron and co generally appear to aim for moderateness; other leaders might not.
I'm not so concerned I won't vote Leave, but for all his faults we could have done worse than Cameron as PM, and as we will get new one sometime after he loses, I hope we get someone as good or better, but we could also get a lot worse.
George Morrell Support for disarmament is still as low as it was 35yrs ago. Corbyn & #StopTrident crowd don't represent the people. https://t.co/nSXDXFtxiX
@JohnZims - Corbyn as LOTO gives the Tories free rein to do whatever they like. My sense is that more than half of the party's MPs would be prepared to accept an EEA-style agreement in order to preserve free movement of goods, capital and services. If that is the case, we are not going to see much difference day-to-day in how this country looks and feels (except Scotland might leave).
The malignant growth of the SNP has occurred since the UK joined the Common Market,/EEC,/EU, post-liberation it will wither away.
Wrong about the signatures needed, don't think it would work anyway.
I was right about Christie, Attorney General for Trump? Is New Jersey in play for Trump in the general, big white vote that the Republicans don't get a large share of?
'John Brabender, the chief strategist for Rick Santorum’s campaign in 2012, adds:
“It speaks to the complexity of Donald Trump. I saw a poll out today, which had him leading in Texas, one leading in Florida, and one leading in Massachusetts. There’s an absurdity in that. You should not have a presidential candidate leading in all three of those states because the voting universes are so different.”
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
I have to admit I would be more secure in my Leave vote if I knew what to expect from whoever (Boris) took over when Cameron goes. I'll still vote Leave, but that some people on the same side are selling it as not only Leaving but in cancelling out the premiership which otherwise I have no real objections to (other than being more incompetent than I would like, but in intent for the most part it's ok) and which I feel attempts to appeal to non-Tories on a centrish=centre right bent, does annoy somewhat. But internal party quagmires are up to them I guess.
The referendum question is pretty simple, as are the consequences and position of the Nation after the vote, no matter which side wins:
The question is very simple: Leave or stay in the EU.
If Stay wins:
We may or may not have some opt outs, depending on your view. The Euro zone countries will have to integrate for the currency to survive.
We will be on the sidelines as far as the euro zone countries are concerned with modest to little influence.
If leave wins:
Cameron will invoke article 50 - a one way street out of the EU.
The government of the day (which may have a different PM) will be tasked with negotiating our exit and the best terms for UK outside the EU. Trade deals, EFTA and all that included.
It's not the negotiation afterwards I'm concerned about in the event of Leave - it's general government policy. Cameron and co generally appear to aim for moderateness; other leaders might not.
I'm not so concerned I won't vote Leave, but for all his faults we could have done worse than Cameron as PM, and as we will get new one sometime after he loses, I hope we get someone as good or better, but we could also get a lot worse.
The idea of the top two gone and the Tories led by some nutcase Booer is frightening.I shall vote remain in the best interest of the nation.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
Doesn't worry me. Tory majority would still be likely, with a Leaver as leader (and Prime Minister) who the public would be happy to see negotiate our new settlement with Europe.
Deluded fantasy suicide .
Yes of course, Mark. Tim Farron would be marching into Downing Street wouldn't he, along with his massed ranks of MPs safe from defeat due to their local strength?
Fact is that even were a GE to follow the referendum, which it won't for many reasons, the Tories would win simply because Corbyn is unelectable. The data is there in the polls for anyone who can be bothered to look. CCHQ wouldn't even need to use the middlemen of Salmond and Sturgeon as scares this time; the LotO is more than enough by himself.
And a Labour campaign run by Corbyn and Milne will be as bad as 1983.
Are you sure it would be that good?
Michael Foot was a deluded patriot. At least he had that going for him. Corbyn? McDonnell? They have a real problem with patriotism.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
I have to admit I would be more secure in my Leave vote if I knew what to expect from whoever (Boris) took over when Cameron goes. I'll still vote Leave, but that some people on the same side are selling it as not only Leaving but in cancelling out the premiership which otherwise I have no real objections to (other than being more incompetent than I would like, but in intent for the most part it's ok) and which I feel attempts to appeal to non-Tories on a centrish=centre right bent, does annoy somewhat. But internal party quagmires are up to them I guess.
The referendum question is pretty simple, as are the consequences and position of the Nation after the vote, no matter which side wins:
The question is very simple: Leave or stay in the EU.
If Stay wins:
We may or may not have some opt outs, depending on your view. The Euro zone countries will have to integrate for the currency to survive.
We will be on the sidelines as far as the euro zone countries are concerned with modest to little influence.
If leave wins:
Cameron will invoke article 50 - a one way street out of the EU.
The government of the day (which may have a different PM) will be tasked with negotiating our exit and the best terms for UK outside the EU. Trade deals, EFTA and all that included.
It's not the negotiation afterwards I'm concerned about in the event of Leave - it's general government policy. Cameron and co generally appear to aim for moderateness; other leaders might not.
I'm not so concerned I won't vote Leave, but for all his faults we could have done worse than Cameron as PM, and as we will get new one sometime after he loses, I hope we get someone as good or better, but we could also get a lot worse.
It is hard to identify a better PM on the green benches. As you say he has had some moderating influence and left ministers in post long enough to get on with the job.
If Farage does this then we know that he is putting his ego before winning the referendum. How long is UKIP going to be viable with antics like this? AFAIK Carswell controls the UKIP short money so UKIP's resources are going to be very limited going forward. http://news.sky.com/story/1648918/ukip-infighting-over-rival-leave-eu-campaigns
I never thought I would say this but the antics of Farage disgust me. He seems to be going out of his way to sabotage our chance of leaving the EU.
If Farage had stood down last summer and someone sensible and presentable such as Suzanne had taken over, then UKIP would today be in Vote Leave only and be building the links to a post referendum party on the right along with many Conservative LEAVE figures. Instead Farage is not only undermining the chances of a referendum but creating the split within UKIP which may see UKIP Vote Leave people co-operating with Conservatives post the referendum.
What Farage is doing will also help the Conservatives to stick together.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
I have to admit I would be more secure in my Leave vote if I knew what to expect from whoever (Boris) took over when Cameron goes. I'll still vote Leave, but that some people on the same side are selling it as not only Leaving but in cancelling out the premiership which otherwise I have no real objections to (other than being more incompetent than I would like, but in intent for the most part it's ok) and which I feel attempts to appeal to non-Tories on a centrish=centre right bent, does annoy somewhat. But internal party quagmires are up to them I guess.
The referendum question is pretty simple, as are the consequences and position of the Nation after the vote, no matter which side wins:
The question is very simple: Leave or stay in the EU.
If Stay wins:
We may or may not have some opt outs, depending on your view. The Euro zone countries will have to integrate for the currency to survive.
We will be on the sidelines as far as the euro zone countries are concerned with modest to little influence.
If leave wins:
Cameron will invoke article 50 - a one way street out of the EU.
The government of the day (which may have a different PM) will be tasked with negotiating our exit and the best terms for UK outside the EU. Trade deals, EFTA and all that included.
It's not the negotiation afterwards I'm concerned about in the event of Leave - it's general government policy. Cameron and co generally appear to aim for moderateness; other leaders might not.
I'm not so concerned I won't vote Leave, but for all his faults we could have done worse than Cameron as PM, and as we will get new one sometime after he loses, I hope we get someone as good or better, but we could also get a lot worse.
The idea of the top two gone and the Tories led by some nutcase Booer is frightening.I shall vote remain in the best interest of the nation.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
Doesn't worry me. Tory majority would still be likely, with a Leaver as leader (and Prime Minister) who the public would be happy to see negotiate our new settlement with Europe.
Deluded fantasy suicide .
Yes of course, Mark. Tim Farron would be marching into Downing Street wouldn't he, along with his massed ranks of MPs safe from defeat due to their local strength?
Fact is that even were a GE to follow the referendum, which it won't for many reasons, the Tories would win simply because Corbyn is unelectable. The data is there in the polls for anyone who can be bothered to look. CCHQ wouldn't even need to use the middlemen of Salmond and Sturgeon as scares this time; the LotO is more than enough by himself.
And a Labour campaign run by Corbyn and Milne will be as bad as 1983.
Are you sure it would be that good?
Michael Foot was a deluded patriot. At least he had that going for him. Corbyn? McDonnell? They have a real problem with patriotism.
Who said what about patriotism? I’ve no problem with being proud of Britain, but it’s never going to be “my country, right or wrong” for me.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
I have to admit I would be more secure in my Leave vote if I knew what to expect from whoever (Boris) took over when Cameron goes. I'll still vote Leave, but that some people on the same side are selling it as not only Leaving but in cancelling out the premiership which otherwise I have no real objections to (other than being more incompetent than I would like, but in intent for the most part it's ok) and which I feel attempts to appeal to non-Tories on a centrish=centre right bent, does annoy somewhat. But internal party quagmires are up to them I guess.
The referendum question is pretty simple, as are the consequences and position of the Nation after the vote, no matter which side wins:
The question is very simple: Leave or stay in the EU.
If Stay wins:
We may or may not have some opt outs, depending on your view. The Euro zone countries will have to integrate for the currency to survive.
We will be on the sidelines as far as the euro zone countries are concerned with modest to little influence.
If leave wins:
Cameron will invoke article 50 - a one way street out of the EU.
The government of the day (which may have a different PM) will be tasked with negotiating our exit and the best terms for UK outside the EU. Trade deals, EFTA and all that included.
It's not the negotiation afterwards I'm concerned about in the event of Leave - it's general government policy. Cameron and co generally appear to aim for moderateness; other leaders might not.
I'm not so concerned I won't vote Leave, but for all his faults we could have done worse than Cameron as PM, and as we will get new one sometime after he loses, I hope we get someone as good or better, but we could also get a lot worse.
The idea of the top two gone and the Tories led by some nutcase Booer is frightening.I shall vote remain in the best interest of the nation.
Would Boris or Graham Brady as PM and Andrea Leadsom as CofE be nutcases in your judgement? Leadsom actually has real work experience in the Finance sector, far more than Osborne ever had.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
I have to admit I would be more secure in my Leave vote if I knew what to expect from whoever (Boris) took over when Cameron goes. I'll still vote Leave, but that some people on the same side are selling it as not only Leaving but in cancelling out the premiership which otherwise I have no real objections to (other than being more incompetent than I would like, but in intent for the most part it's ok) and which I feel attempts to appeal to non-Tories on a centrish=centre right bent, does annoy somewhat. But internal party quagmires are up to them I guess.
The referendum question is pretty simple, as are the consequences and position of the Nation after the vote, no matter which side wins:
The question is very simple: Leave or stay in the EU.
If Stay wins:
We may or may not have some opt outs, depending on your view. The Euro zone countries will have to integrate for the currency to survive.
We will be on the sidelines as far as the euro zone countries are concerned with modest to little influence.
If leave wins:
Cameron will invoke article 50 - a one way street out of the EU.
The government of the day (which may have a different PM) will be tasked with negotiating our exit and the best terms for UK outside the EU. Trade deals, EFTA and all that included.
It's not the negotiation afterwards I'm concerned about in the event of Leave - it's general government policy. Cameron and co generally appear to aim for moderateness; other leaders might not.
I'm not so concerned I won't vote Leave, but for all his faults we could have done worse than Cameron as PM, and as we will get new one sometime after he loses, I hope we get someone as good or better, but we could also get a lot worse.
The idea of the top two gone and the Tories led by some nutcase Booer is frightening.I shall vomain in the best interest of the nation.
Would Boris or Graham Brady as PM and Andrea Leadsom as CofE be nutcases in your judgement? Leadsom actually has real work experience in the Finance sector, far more than Osborne ever had.
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
I'm calling specious bullshit on that.
Leavers are better at abuse than rational argument. You make Alistair's point for him.
At least Leavers make points about the argument supported by facts.i have never seen you do anything other than make snide comments on the debate.
You suck the intelligence out of any debate by your mere presence.
Like Scottish independence, or Northern Ireland voting to join the Republic, Out is Out. In doesn't settle the issue unless it's a big vote in. Those seeking to maintain the status quo have to keep winning. Those seeking to change it only have to win once. It's got nothing to do with the good faith of either side.
We had a big vote In in 1975. By 1983 Labour were campaigning to leave the EEC.
I expect Leave to show as much good faith as then even if they lose badly. They are convinced they know best.
Just as the EU is convinced it knows best when it ignores referendum results it doesn't like as it has done in Denmark, Ireland, France and the Netherlands.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
The referendum question is pretty simple, as are the consequences and position of the Nation after the vote, no matter which side wins:
The question is very simple: Leave or stay in the EU.
If Stay wins:
We may or may not have some opt outs, depending on your view. The Euro zone countries will have to integrate for the currency to survive.
We will be on the sidelines as far as the euro zone countries are concerned with modest to little influence.
If leave wins:
Cameron will invoke article 50 - a one way street out of the EU.
The government of the day (which may have a different PM) will be tasked with negotiating our exit and the best terms for UK outside the EU. Trade deals, EFTA and all that included.
It's not the negotiation afterwards I'm concerned about in the event of Leave - it's general government policy. Cameron and co generally appear to aim for moderateness; other leaders might not.
I'm not so concerned I won't vote Leave, but for all his faults we could have done worse than Cameron as PM, and as we will get new one sometime after he loses, I hope we get someone as good or better, but we could also get a lot worse.
The idea of the top two gone and the Tories led by some nutcase Booer is frightening.I shall vote remain in the best interest of the nation.
Would Boris or Graham Brady as PM and Andrea Leadsom as CofE be nutcases in your judgement? Leadsom actually has real work experience in the Finance sector, far more than Osborne ever had.
Graham Brady? I seem to remember that one of the posters on here went to school with him - said he was a bit of an oddball. The fact that he resigned over the Tory 'grammar school row' - an obvious bit of media silliness - speaks volumes about his judgement and attitude. That he should now be spoken of as prime-ministerial material is amazing.
What Tory Leavers have to ask themselves is whether they would be happy losing their Prime Minister AND Chancellor the morning after the referendum because you can now be absolutely certain that that would be the result of a Leave vote.
I wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election
Doesn't worry me. Tory majority would still be likely, with a Leaver as leader (and Prime Minister) who the public would be happy to see negotiate our new settlement with Europe.
Deluded fantasy suicide .
Yes of course, Mark. Tim Farron would be marching into Downing Street wouldn't he, along with his massed ranks of MPs safe from defeat due to their local strength?
Fact is that even were a GE to follow the referendum, which it won't for many reasons, the Tories would win simply because Corbyn is unelectable. The data is there in the polls for anyone who can be bothered to look. CCHQ wouldn't even need to use the middlemen of Salmond and Sturgeon as scares this time; the LotO is more than enough by himself.
And a Labour campaign run by Corbyn and Milne will be as bad as 1983.
Are you sure it would be that good?
Michael Foot was a deluded patriot. At least he had that going for him. Corbyn? McDonnell? They have a real problem with patriotism.
Who said what about patriotism? I’ve no problem with being proud of Britain, but it’s never going to be “my country, right or wrong” for me.
You are probably not a typical swing voter though...
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
I'm calling specious bullshit on that.
Leavers are better at abuse than rational argument. You make Alistair's point for him.
At least Leavers make points about the argument supported by facts.i have never seen you do anything other than make snide comments on the debate.
You suck the intelligence out of any debate by your mere presence.
Like Scottish independence, or Northern Ireland voting to join the Republic, Out is Out. In doesn't settle the issue unless it's a big vote in. Those seeking to maintain the status quo have to keep winning. Those seeking to change it only have to win once. It's got nothing to do with the good faith of either side.
We had a big vote In in 1975. By 1983 Labour were campaigning to leave the EEC.
I expect Leave to show as much good faith as then even if they lose badly. They are convinced they know best.
Just as the EU is convinced it knows best when it ignores referendum results it doesn't like as it has done in Denmark, Ireland, France and the Netherlands.
I really don't understand people's attitudes to this topic. Whoever wins will be the majority, but when has that ever invalidated the losers? The SNP didn't curl up into a ball and die because they lost Indyref. The Lib Dems appear to be a going concern despite losing very badly.
I'd hope we all respect each others convictions - I'm certainly going to accept the result if Remain win, but it won't change my view that the EU is an outdated institution too large and sprawling to adapt to 21st century challenges. We've already had hints that they're holding back legislation so as to not frighten the horses prior to our referendum.
with the refugee migration season not even upon us, these latest polls are bad numbers for remain.
It'll be interesting what the EU does now, if anything. Germany's business lobby is already getting very restive.
The British electorate is a far better poker player than its Prime Minister.
At the moment LEAVE are getting away with implying that immigration will disappear if we vote BREXIT. That position is going to come under severe scrutiny between now and June. Do you accept that if we move from EU to EFTA/EEA (the dominant LEAVE option) that immigration will be barely affected?
YOu are getting this the wrong way around.
I think voters want to start with the immigration system they want. A points system. That's the main priority for them. They want to stop the modern politician's practise of replacing the old electorate with a new one so beloved of Tony Blair.
EFTA, EEA, this is just alphabet soup to them. Small print. Whatever. They will get the best on trade they can.
I pretty much agree about what a majority of voters probably want re immigration but you are not really addressing the issue of what they are going to do when they discover that BREXIT makes little difference because we will almost certainly join EFTA/EEA post-exit.
Before voting I am really going to want to know exactly what is going to happen next if we leave and whilst I accept that it is up to the government of the day to negotiate that is not going to cut it for me it terms of deciding which way I vote.
Of course Out is Out. The issue is what Out actually means. Will it make it harder for British businesses to access the single market, will it lead to significant reductions in immigration and so on?
"Of course Out is Out."
Really? I saw dozens of posts on here claiming that Boris only wanted to LEAVE so he could hold a second referendum
As for repeatedly asking me what Boris thinks of things I know nothing about Im afraid I cant help you.. I get the feeling you don't like him!
I dislike his opportunism and intellectual dishonesty, and I think he will be a very poor PM/cabinet minister, but I know that you are going to end up disliking him a lot more than I will. He is never going to disappoint me or leave me feeling betrayed.
I can take or leave him to be honest, but he seems to be an asset for LEAVE
Of that there is no doubt. But we'll see how Leave voters think of him after he's negotiated the Brexit deal. Remember you heard it here first - he will not put free movement of goods, services and capital in peril to restrict free movement of peoples.
As long as it is the policy of our govt, and that govt can be voted out and the policy changed, we are in a better position than we are now where we are bound by a higher parliament
The policy of our government now is to Remain. But from your response it is clear you are going to be severely disappointed by the results of a Leave win. By the time of the next general election we will have a new, binding agreement with the EU, negotiated by the Tory government, which will enshrine free movement of goods, services, capital and people.
Correct but LEAVERS won't engage on that issue they keep maintaining the myth that a LEAVE vote is somehow going to end immigration. I suspect it's not a line that is going to be able to be maintained through to June. The imponderable is what will the LEAVERS who are primarily motivated by immigration do once it dawns on them that what they will actually be getting is very little different to what they have now.
I pretty much agree about what a majority of voters probably want re immigration but you are not really addressing the issue of what they are going to do when they discover that BREXIT makes little difference because we will almost certainly join EFTA/EEA post-exit.
Which part of the word Leave don't you understand ?
Correct but LEAVERS won't engage on that issue they keep maintaining the myth that a LEAVE vote is somehow going to end immigration. I suspect it's not a line that is going to be able to be maintained through to June. The imponderable is what will the LEAVERS who are primarily motivated by immigration do once it dawns on them that what they will actually be getting is very little different to what they have now.
If we vote REMAIN we WONT get any deal on immigration. LEAVE is bound to be BETTER than that.
(And anyway Cameron promised us last election he would get net immigration down to the tens of thousands - unless 'tens' means 33 of them.)
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
I'm calling specious bullshit on that.
Leavers are better at abuse than rational argument. You make Alistair's point for him.
What I object to to is the underlying smugness that Remainers are claiming to be better democrats than Leavers.
Not just better democrats; better people.
Sean Fear is more honest. At least he admits that a referendum defeat would be just a staging post rather than settling the argument and that he sees it as asymmetric.
It can't be anything other than asymmetric. If, say, we had another Border Poll in Northern Ireland, it would probably result in about a 60/40 vote to stay in the UK. But, I'd be very surprised if the SDLP and Sinn Fein stopped campaigning for Irish Unification. Likewise, the SNP will campaign still to leave the UK, despite the vote in 2014.
But, if Irish or Scottish nationalists won, that would be that. What's now the status quo would become a lost cause.
Leave supporters demanded a referendum now. Sinn Fein and SDLP supporters are not particularly looking for one now. If you ask for one and lose, you need to accept the verdict until circumstances change substantially.
Alastair, you're trying very hard to tar all leavers with the same brush.
I have never demanded a referendum, but given the poor hand delivered by the PM and the dreadful abuse of Govt power in the early stages of the campaign, I've become a firm Leaver. I'm also now considering campaigning.
I don't know a single local Tory activist who is campaigning for Remain....many party loyalists are being driven away by the condescension of the leadership.
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
I'm calling specious bullshit on that.
Leavers are better at abuse than rational argument. You make Alistair's point for him.
What I object to to is the underlying smugness that Remainers are claiming to be better democrats than Leavers.
Not just better democrats; better people.
Sean Fear is more honest. At least he admits that a referendum defeat would be just a staging post rather than settling the argument and that he sees it as asymmetric.
It can't be anything other than asymmetric. If, say, we had another Border Poll in Northern Ireland, it would probably result in about a 60/40 vote to stay in the UK. But, I'd be very surprised if the SDLP and Sinn Fein stopped campaigning for Irish Unification. Likewise, the SNP will campaign still to leave the UK, despite the vote in 2014.
But, if Irish or Scottish nationalists won, that would be that. What's now the status quo would become a lost cause.
Leave supporters demanded a referendum now. Sinn Fein and SDLP supporters are not particularly looking for one now. If you ask for one and lose, you need to accept the verdict until circumstances change substantially.
Alastair, you're trying very hard to tar all leavers with the same brush.
I have never demanded a referendum, but given the poor hand delivered by the PM and the dreadful abuse of Govt power in the early stages of the campaign, I've become a firm Leaver. I'm also now considering campaigning.
I don't know a single local Tory activist who is campaigning for Remain....many party loyalists are being driven away by the condescension of the leadership.
It's Cameron's plot - he wants Brexit so he's campaigning so bad deliberately to ensure that LEAVE wins.
I've just seen Nigel Lawson has now entered the fray. Aren't the leavers worried that their side are starting to look like a freaks circus? Will people really be persuaded by this lot or is it just me.....
My point is its irrelevant isn't it? You need a majority in the Electoral College not a plurality, so either you have a majority or you don't. Dead heats or pluralities don't count, they are all subsumed within the headline "no majority" so Congress decides. winatcrowncasino.com | drharrietdental.com
Comments
'John Brabender, the chief strategist for Rick Santorum’s campaign in 2012, adds:
“It speaks to the complexity of Donald Trump. I saw a poll out today, which had him leading in Texas, one leading in Florida, and one leading in Massachusetts. There’s an absurdity in that. You should not have a presidential candidate leading in all three of those states because the voting universes are so different.”
With that profile, Trump is poised to bridge a geographic and demographic divide that stymied the party’s past two presidential nominees, John McCain and Mitt Romney.'
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/02/trump-is-winning-a-two-front-war/471270/
'Voters will not be negotiating Brexit. This government will be. Being in the EEA means no significant change to current levels of EU immigration. Is that really just small print?'
Having a laugh ?
You seriously believe that if Leave wins, the government (most likely with a new PM) is going to ignore one of the main reasons for the Leave vote ?
Waking up with Nick Clegg*. Every day. For the rest of your life...
EDIT * Other horrific images are available, to taste.
How long is UKIP going to be viable with antics like this?
AFAIK Carswell controls the UKIP short money so UKIP's resources are going to be very limited going forward.
http://news.sky.com/story/1648918/ukip-infighting-over-rival-leave-eu-campaigns
Put another way: the Tory version of Leave does not frighten me at all, but will not get Leave across the line; the UKIP version (or the Farsgr version, perhsps more accurately) frightens the life out of me, could get Leave a victory, but will never happen in practice. Politically, I find that fascinating.
Why wouldn't even rule out a vote of No Confidence leading to a General Election? Under what circumstance do you see it happening?
1. It's an election commitment backed by a referendum. It's highly unlikely that the Lords will play silly beggars.
2. If they do, the government can use the Parliament Act - the negotiations will take long enough to permit that.
3. If time becomes of the essence, the government can threaten the Lords with the nuclear option of full democratic reform, kicking out all the recalcitrants, many of whom would in this scenario either sit for a party that has little current democratic legitimacy, or be crossbench 'independents' with even less.
The question is very simple: Leave or stay in the EU.
If Stay wins:
We may or may not have some opt outs, depending on your view. The Euro zone countries will have to integrate for the currency to survive.
We will be on the sidelines as far as the euro zone countries are concerned with modest to little influence.
If leave wins:
Cameron will invoke article 50 - a one way street out of the EU.
The government of the day (which may have a different PM) will be tasked with negotiating our exit and the best terms for UK outside the EU. Trade deals, EFTA and all that included.
Fact is that even were a GE to follow the referendum, which it won't for many reasons, the Tories would win simply because Corbyn is unelectable. The data is there in the polls for anyone who can be bothered to look. CCHQ wouldn't even need to use the middlemen of Salmond and Sturgeon as scares this time; the LotO is more than enough by himself.
And a Labour campaign run by Corbyn and Milne will be as bad as 1983.
What Farage is doing will also help the Conservatives to stick together.
I'm not so concerned I won't vote Leave, but for all his faults we could have done worse than Cameron as PM, and as we will get new one sometime after he loses, I hope we get someone as good or better, but we could also get a lot worse.
Support for disarmament is still as low as it was 35yrs ago. Corbyn & #StopTrident crowd don't represent the people. https://t.co/nSXDXFtxiX
SNP votes:
1951 - 7299
1955 - 12112
1959 - 21738
1964 - 64044
1966 - 128474
1970 - 306802 (1 MP)
The SNP's growth started long before UK involvement in the EEC.
More fun stuff from Roger Stone. Romney, what a dreadful suggestion.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/doors-gop-consulting-independent-219859
Wrong about the signatures needed, don't think it would work anyway.
I was right about Christie, Attorney General for Trump? Is New Jersey in play for Trump in the general, big white vote that the Republicans don't get a large share of?
Or is this GE polling ?
Majority of the 59 delegates in South Carolina seem to head to Clinton. Latest polls in SC:
C 60, S 37
C 64, S 14
C 61 S 32
We can do a sort of hokey cokey
I'd hope we all respect each others convictions - I'm certainly going to accept the result if Remain win, but it won't change my view that the EU is an outdated institution too large and sprawling to adapt to 21st century challenges. We've already had hints that they're holding back legislation so as to not frighten the horses prior to our referendum.
Before voting I am really going to want to know exactly what is going to happen next if we leave and whilst I accept that it is up to the government of the day to negotiate that is not going to cut it for me it terms of deciding which way I vote.
I pretty much agree about what a majority of voters probably want re immigration but you are not really addressing the issue of what they are going to do when they discover that BREXIT makes little difference because we will almost certainly join EFTA/EEA post-exit.
Which part of the word Leave don't you understand ?
If we vote REMAIN we WONT get any deal on immigration. LEAVE is bound to be BETTER than that.
(And anyway Cameron promised us last election he would get net immigration down to the tens of thousands - unless 'tens' means 33 of them.)
I have never demanded a referendum, but given the poor hand delivered by the PM and the dreadful abuse of Govt power in the early stages of the campaign, I've become a firm Leaver. I'm also now considering campaigning.
I don't know a single local Tory activist who is campaigning for Remain....many party loyalists are being driven away by the condescension of the leadership.
winatcrowncasino.com | drharrietdental.com