"Some 85 per cent of those aged 65 or over said they would definitely vote (10/10), compared to 53 per cent of 18-24 year-olds. Only 34 per cent of the oldest age group said Britain should remain in the EU, with 66 per cent saying it should leave. In contrast, 70 per cent of 18-24 year-olds wanted Britain to stay and only 30 per cent believed it should quit."
I only waffle when I found an interesting question but haven't found an answer to it.
I was thinking of tying together two topics today and asking "Is Britain destined to be forever the EU's South Carolina?", talking about nullification, secession threats and so on, and bringing in, inter alia, John C Calhoun, Fort Sumter and other assorted historical highlights of the feisty antebellum state, but couldn't find a way to make it really work.
Both those turnout figures exceed the rate in 2015 for their respective age groups.
Response rates in polls routinely put certainty to vote higher than it is. Even the Scottish independence referendum - the highest ever turnout in the UK's history - saw polls implying that it would top 90%.
Note - I'm not sure what the theoretical maximum turnout is, given double-registration of students and others with properties in more than one council area, and others on the electoral roll who legally can't vote for one reason or another e.g. EU citizens at GEs.
They have been saying that for months if not years, Rome was built faster than this investigation as the article at the top of this thread makes clear the longer it goes on the more farcical it could become
The FBI has made no public statement on the state of the investigation until today. Information has previously come primarily from National Security correspondents.
With the FBI the longer the investigation goes on the more likely the recommendation of an indictment. If they don't feel there of the political calendar.
Judicial Watch has taken a huge leap forward with discovery. That means that whatever the FBI decides, the email scandal will linger long past the election.
Regardless it depends what they indict her for if they do at all they have had ample time to do so. Unless she is convicted of high treason the point remains there is no constitutional bar to her continuing to c
If she is indicted she is gone - the Democratic Party will already have a Plan B for this eventuality - assuming it's before the election, which it probably will be.
Stop fixating on legal technicalities. Once the recommendation is issued (if) it becomes a political process to replace her. That will happen very quickly. The legal process will take over a year.
They are not just legal technicalities, they go to the very heart of the impact on the campaign and any potential presidency. If she is indicted on very serious charges then it may be her delegates go to Biden and he is nominee but otherwise she may well stay in the race. As I said if she gets to the Oval Office her powers will be such she can end the process in effect, if she loses then the process would continue but her political career would be over anyway
If she pardoned herself then I don't think she could rely on her Democrat colleagues in Congress to protect her from impeachment. She would effectively be declaring herself above the law.
Were she incredibly popular, such a move would tarnish her badly but her aura would protect her sufficiently. But she's not popular and such a move would look (and be) like the tawdry attempts of political desperation. What would Democrat congressmen and senators gain from tying themselves to such an outrageous manoeuvre?
The article is fanciful and imaginative and interesting, but it is all based on the supposition that a tangled Constitutional crisis would be preferable to the straightforward democratic election of a (possible) crook as POTUS. If the whole investigation process gets really serious - to the extent of forcing Hillary form office through impeachment - then it will all happen after the 45th POTUS is already safely elected and in office - whether that's Hillary or anybody else.
Conspiracy theorists might also think that the FBI would want to ensure Hillary gets a smooth ride to the White House anyway - because they wouldn't want to have to deal with President Trump.
"Indeed, the British are not that much better travelled when you consider travel outside Europe. Only 44% of Britons have been to North America, 30% have been to Africa, 27% to Asia, 14% to Australia and 12% to South America."
I'm surprised as many as 30% of Brits have been to Africa, although I guess that's mainly because of Morocco, Egypt, Tunisia, etc, rather than sub-Saharan Africa.
I have been to all continents and not the standard holiday spots either but normally some way out places. I have also been to the Arctic and Antartica. I wonder what % that falls into?
I also consider myself very very lucky to have the opportunity to have been able to do so.
Likewise - nearly 80 countries, on all continents. Several of those I could not now safely go back to. I feel very fortunate to have seen them whilst they were still open.
That is a sentiment very much shared by my wife and I
"By my wife and ME"!
Sorry no. My wife and I was the regular and proper way to refer up until the 80's and 90's. Very bad to say "me" and was chastised for it meany times when at School. Still struggle not to say I even now but me seems to be the new way.
No it wasn't. "My wife and me" has always been correct if it's in the accusative case, and "My wife and I" has always been correct if it's in the nominative case. Any teachers at school who told you otherwise were insane.
"Indeed, the British are not that much better travelled when you consider travel outside Europe. Only 44% of Britons have been to North America, 30% have been to Africa, 27% to Asia, 14% to Australia and 12% to South America."
I'm surprised as many as 30% of Brits have been to Africa, although I guess that's mainly because of Morocco, Egypt, Tunisia, etc, rather than sub-Saharan Africa.
I have been to 12 countries (one of which doesn't exist any more) and I have never been outside Europe.
"Indeed, the British are not that much better travelled when you consider travel outside Europe. Only 44% of Britons have been to North America, 30% have been to Africa, 27% to Asia, 14% to Australia and 12% to South America."
I'm surprised as many as 30% of Brits have been to Africa, although I guess that's mainly because of Morocco, Egypt, Tunisia, etc, rather than sub-Saharan Africa.
I have been to all continents and not the standard holiday spots either but normally some way out places. I have also been to the Arctic and Antartica. I wonder what % that falls into?
I also consider myself very very lucky to have the opportunity to have been able to do so.
Likewise - nearly 80 countries, on all continents. Several of those I could not now safely go back to. I feel very fortunate to have seen them whilst they were still open.
That is a sentiment very much shared by my wife and I
"By my wife and ME"!
Sorry no. My wife and I was the regular and proper way to refer up until the 80's and 90's. Very bad to say "me" and was chastised for it meany times when at School. Still struggle not to say I even now but me seems to be the new way.
No it wasn't. "My wife and me" has always been correct if it's in the accusative case, and "My wife and I" has always been correct if it's in the nominative case. Any teachers at school who told you otherwise were insane.
The article is fanciful and imaginative and interesting, but it is all based on the supposition that a tangled Constitutional crisis would be preferable to the straightforward democratic election of a (possible) crook as POTUS.
You don't think that if the FBI came around and slapped on the handcuffs and charge her with committing a felony under the Espionage Act 1917 that might slightly impact her electoral chances ?
"Indeed, the British are not that much better travelled when you consider travel outside Europe. Only 44% of Britons have been to North America, 30% have been to Africa, 27% to Asia, 14% to Australia and 12% to South America."
I'm surprised as many as 30% of Brits have been to Africa, although I guess that's mainly because of Morocco, Egypt, Tunisia, etc, rather than sub-Saharan Africa.
I have been to 12 countries (one of which doesn't exist any more) and I have never been outside Europe.
Over 70, several of which no longer exist.
Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Poland, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, France, Spain, Switzerland, Italy, San Marino, Monaco, Austria, Slovenia, Greece, Malta, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Turkey, Russia, Liechtenstein, Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, Sudan, Djibouti, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen (YAR, PDRY both), UAE, Qater, Bahrain, Kuwait, Iraq, Ghana, Nigeria, Kenya, South Africa, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, The Maldives, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Australia, Fiji, Tahiti, China, Hong Kong, Macau, Canada, US, Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Ecuador, Venezuela, Trinidad (and Tobago), Grenada, St Vincent and the Grenadines, Anguilla, Bermuda, Barbados, the Dominican Republic, Turks and Caicos
The article is fanciful and imaginative and interesting, but it is all based on the supposition that a tangled Constitutional crisis would be preferable to the straightforward democratic election of a (possible) crook as POTUS.
You don't think that if the FBI came around and slapped on the handcuffs and charge her with committing a felony under the Espionage Act 1917 that might slightly impact her electoral chances ?
Of course it would. But it's not in their interests to do that until after the inauguration.
When ticking off countries, surely one ought to count states/provinces within larger ones.
For the USA I have been to: Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, Tennessee, Maryland, Washington DC, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, California, Oregon, US Virgin Islands and Peurto Rico. 24 states and 3 territories. I haven't covered the Midwest or Great Plains very well, but the Sunbelt is ticked off completely. My favourite state was New Mexico. So much to do there and so much beautiful scenery.
The article is fanciful and imaginative and interesting, but it is all based on the supposition that a tangled Constitutional crisis would be preferable to the straightforward democratic election of a (possible) crook as POTUS.
You don't think that if the FBI came around and slapped on the handcuffs and charge her with committing a felony under the Espionage Act 1917 that might slightly impact her electoral chances ?
Of course it would. But it's not in their interests to do that until after the inauguration.
The FBI are apparently ready to proceed with the email indictment recommendation, according to the media, but are still investigating the Clinton Foundation, regarding actions, contributions and contracts awarded during Clinton's time as SoS.
The FBI is not politically oriented. She is potentially facing charges regarding improper handling of classified information, about 1800 counts, and also public corruption charges. Both are big deals and carry substantial penalties, both fines and jail time.
It's in the FBI's interest to proceed as soon as their case is complete.
They have been saying that for months if not years, Rome was built faster than this investigation as the article at the top of this thread makes clear the longer it goes on the more farcical it could become
The FBI has made no public statement on the state of the investigation until today. Information has previously come primarily from National Security correspondents.
With the FBI the longer the investigation goes on the more likely the recommendation of an indictment. If they don't feel there of the political calendar.
Judicial Watch has taken a huge leap forward with discovery. That means that whatever the FBI decides, the email scandal will linger long past the election.
Regardless it depends what they indict her for if they do at all they have had ample time to do so. Unless she is convicted of high treason the point remains there is no constitutional bar to her continuing to c
If she is indicted she is gone - the Democratic Party will already have a Plan B for this eventuality - assuming it's before the election, which it probably will be.
Stop fixating on legal technicalities. Once the recommendation is issued (if) it becomes a political process to replace her. That will happen very quickly. The legal process will take over a year.
They are not just legal technicalities, they go to the very heart of the impact on the campaign and any potential presidency. If she is indicted on very serious charges then it may be her delegates go to Biden and he is nominee but otherwise she may well stay in the race. As I said if she gets to the Oval Office her powers will be such she can end the process in effect, if she loses then the process would continue but her political career would be over anyway
If she pardoned herself then I don't think she could rely on her Democrat colleagues in Congress to protect her from impeachment. She would effectively be declaring herself above the law.
Were she incredibly popular, such a move would tarnish her badly but her aura would protect her sufficiently. But she's not popular and such a move would look (and be) like the tawdry attempts of political desperation. What would Democrat congressmen and senators gain from tying themselves to such an outrageous manoeuvre?
If a President controlling both houses of Congress could successfully pardon him/herself, Nixon would not have had to resign over Watergate, which was arguably a rather less serious matter than these rumours are suggesting the FBI believes this to be.
Osborne preparing everybody for cuts; immigration figures through the roof again;, Conservative party split in two, looks like Dave knew what he was doing when he said he'd be getting out.
It might be a bit early to talk of rats and sinking ships but before long that will be the message from labour. Let's be honest, Dave is quite good at winning elections but beyond that he's not much cop. I find that disappointing, he had a mandate and an opportunity to make a big difference.
Osborne preparing everybody for cuts; immigration figures through the roof again;, Conservative party split in two, looks like Dave knew what he was doing when he said he'd be getting out.
It might be a bit early to talk of rats and sinking ships but before long that will be the message from labour. Let's be honest, Dave is quite good at winning elections but beyond that he's not much cop. I find that disappointing, he had a mandate and an opportunity to make a big difference.
You should look through the threads from 2010 - much the same if not worse forecasts of doom abounded. Osborne is enormously clever at flying kites. Both Cameron and he remain in power and the country is far better for it. Meanwhile, Labour is in a mess of denial and 80s militancy, UKIP is tanking, and the LDs barely exist.
@GPW_Portland: Plenty Ministers, MPs and staffers expressing real concern to me this week about how DC heals wounds post referendum.
They are wrong. There is no need to heal wounds
Tory civil war winner must crush the losers
Forget the vapid posturing about the “Conservative family” “re-uniting”. The family is dysfunctional. Its agonies will not cease until it can make a clear decision about what it stands for on Europe. June 24 will be no time to bury the hatchet, but to sharpen it. An argument will have been settled. That’s what referendums are for.
A crisp instruction will have been issued by the electorate on a question to which no party with pretensions to government can continue to offer two contradictory answers. The months ahead are the Tory party’s chance, with the electorate’s guidance, to make up its mind. Once done, let that moment of clarity be seized, not lost in a flood of eyewash about conciliation.
For a very long time now, a vague sense of perpetual struggle for the Conservative party’s soul has dogged it and the country. Whatever the result, the message on the dawn of June 24 should be not “come together” but “come over — or walk.”
@GPW_Portland: Plenty Ministers, MPs and staffers expressing real concern to me this week about how DC heals wounds post referendum.
They are wrong. There is no need to heal wounds
Tory civil war winner must crush the losers
Forget the vapid posturing about the “Conservative family” “re-uniting”. The family is dysfunctional. Its agonies will not cease until it can make a clear decision about what it stands for on Europe. June 24 will be no time to bury the hatchet, but to sharpen it. An argument will have been settled. That’s what referendums are for.
A crisp instruction will have been issued by the electorate on a question to which no party with pretensions to government can continue to offer two contradictory answers. The months ahead are the Tory party’s chance, with the electorate’s guidance, to make up its mind. Once done, let that moment of clarity be seized, not lost in a flood of eyewash about conciliation.
For a very long time now, a vague sense of perpetual struggle for the Conservative party’s soul has dogged it and the country. Whatever the result, the message on the dawn of June 24 should be not “come together” but “come over — or walk.”
The FBI has made no public statement on the state of the investigation until today. Information has previously come primarily from National Security correspondents.
With the FBI the longer the investigation goes on the more likely the recommendation of an indictment. If they don't feel there of the political calendar.
Judicial Watch has taken a huge leap forward with discovery. That means that whatever the FBI decides, the email scandal will linger long past the election.
Regardless it depends what they indict her for if they do at all they have had ample time to do so. Unless she is convicted of high treason the point remains there is no constitutional bar to her continuing to c
If she is indicted she is gone - the Democratic Party will already have a Plan B for this eventuality - assuming it's before the election, which it probably will be.
Stop fixating on legal technicalities. Once the recommendation is issued (if) it becomes a political process to replace her. That will happen very quickly. The legal process will take over a year.
They are not just legal technicalities, they go to the very heart of the impact on the campaign and any potential presidency. If she is indicted on very serious charges then it may be her delegates go to Biden and he is nominee but otherwise she may well stay in the race. As I said if she gets to the Oval Office her powers will be such she can end the process in effect, if she loses then the process would continue but her political career would be over anyway
If she pardoned herself then I don't think she could rely on her Democrat colleagues in Congress to protect her from impeachment. She would effectively be declaring herself above the law.
Were she incredibly popular, such a move would tarnish her badly but her aura would protect her sufficiently. But she's not popular and such a move would look (and be) like the tawdry attempts of political desperation. What would Democrat congressmen and senators gain from tying themselves to such an outrageous manoeuvre?
If a President controlling both houses of Congress could successfully pardon him/herself, Nixon would not have had to resign over Watergate, which was arguably a rather less serious matter than these rumours are suggesting the FBI believes this to be.
The Republicans controlled neither House in 1973-4 but they did have a blocking minority against supermajority measures including impeachment, so your point stands. And Nixon in 1972 was much more popular than Hillary is now, never mind what she'd be if she pardoned herself as president.
There will be every need to heal wounds unless the party wants to become an irrelevance again.
No
"irrelevance again" - When were they irrelevant before?
A party that aligns behind the majority position of the British people can hardly be described as irrelevant, but that alignment requires losers to know they lost
Quick count.... I think I have been to a handfull more but don't recollect and a few islands and bizarre out of the way places.......
Algeria ,Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas,Bahrain,Bangladesh, Barbados,Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina,Brazil, Brunei, Bulgaria, Cameroon, Canada, Central African Republic, Chile,China, Colombia, Congo, Republic of the, Congo, Democratic Republic of the, Costa Rica, Côte d'Ivoire, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, Equatorial Guinea, Fiji, Finland, France, Gabon, Germany, Greece, Greenland, Guyana, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Libya, Luxembourg, Madagascar, Malaysia, Malta, Mexico, Monaco,Montenegro, Morocco, Myanmar (Burma), Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Panama Papua New Guinea, Peru,Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Romania, Russia, St. Kitts and Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent and The Grenadines, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, Seychelles, Singapore, Slovakia, Solomon Islands, South Africa South Korea, South Sudan, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Thailand, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia Turkey, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, USA (United States of America), Uruguay, Vatican City (Holy See), Venezuela, Vietnam, Yemen, Zimbabwe.
Also Pitcairn Island , the Falklands both Arctic and Antarctic circles. Most of those countries I have been too more than once.
Like said previously I consider myself very fortunate to have been able to do so.
@GPW_Portland: Plenty Ministers, MPs and staffers expressing real concern to me this week about how DC heals wounds post referendum.
They are wrong. There is no need to heal wounds
Tory civil war winner must crush the losers
Forget the vapid posturing about the “Conservative family” “re-uniting”. The family is dysfunctional. Its agonies will not cease until it can make a clear decision about what it stands for on Europe. June 24 will be no time to bury the hatchet, but to sharpen it. An argument will have been settled. That’s what referendums are for.
A crisp instruction will have been issued by the electorate on a question to which no party with pretensions to government can continue to offer two contradictory answers. The months ahead are the Tory party’s chance, with the electorate’s guidance, to make up its mind. Once done, let that moment of clarity be seized, not lost in a flood of eyewash about conciliation.
For a very long time now, a vague sense of perpetual struggle for the Conservative party’s soul has dogged it and the country. Whatever the result, the message on the dawn of June 24 should be not “come together” but “come over — or walk.”
So that was Thatcher's advice shortly before the party removed her? I think that says it all.
There will be every need to heal wounds unless the party wants to become an irrelevance again.
The Tories are not "lancing the boil" over Europe, they are merely prodding at it ineffectively!
To lance a boil effectively, it needs to "point" and after the incision, the pus needs to be completely drained, with the wound laid open so it cannot re-form. It should then be left to heal by secondary intention.
In other words: the toxic material needs to be removed and disposed of. The original article is right.
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do wont it look politically motivated
@GPW_Portland: Plenty Ministers, MPs and staffers expressing real concern to me this week about how DC heals wounds post referendum.
They are wrong. There is no need to heal wounds
Tory civil war winner must crush the losers
Forget the vapid posturing about the “Conservative family” “re-uniting”. The family is dysfunctional. Its agonies will not cease until it can make a clear decision about what it stands for on Europe. June 24 will be no time to bury the hatchet, but to sharpen it. An argument will have been settled. That’s what referendums are for.
A crisp instruction will have been issued by the electorate on a question to which no party with pretensions to government can continue to offer two contradictory answers. The months ahead are the Tory party’s chance, with the electorate’s guidance, to make up its mind. Once done, let that moment of clarity be seized, not lost in a flood of eyewash about conciliation.
For a very long time now, a vague sense of perpetual struggle for the Conservative party’s soul has dogged it and the country. Whatever the result, the message on the dawn of June 24 should be not “come together” but “come over — or walk.”
So that was Thatcher's advice shortly before the party removed her? I think that says it all.
There will be every need to heal wounds unless the party wants to become an irrelevance again.
Its pretty clear many Tory Remain supporters do not have any tolerance at all for Leave supporters. Leave supporters should remember that when they choose the next leader. Especially as buyers remorse is likely with a Remain win.
The Republicans controlled neither House in 1973-4 but they did have a blocking minority against supermajority measures including impeachment, so your point stands. And Nixon in 1972 was much more popular than Hillary is now, never mind what she'd be if she pardoned herself as president.
Out of curiosity, can a President even legally attempt to pardon themselves, or do conflict of interest rules apply?
Ford did of course pardon Nixon. My personal view remains that if it's emails only, and Trump is the GOP candidate, Obama might still pardon Clinton and say she was acting with his approval. Moreover, it's not inconceivable she could still beat Trump on that basis although it would be a horrible campaign.
These other allegations however, if they are true and the FBI did prosecute, might well be a different matter. A pardon for such offences would be a much murkier business.
So the Tories were irrelevant when they were led by people who want out of Europe (IDS, Howard), and in Government when led by someone who wants to remain.
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do it'll look politically motivated
I think that unless there is evidence of harm to a US agent or operation then the breach of email policy will not fly as an issue. So far I have seen no evidence of harm, and I suspect that the US electorate will not either.
I think HRC will be an excellent President, though my betting position is on Hair Bear!
Its pretty clear many Tory Remain supporters do not have any tolerance at all for Leave supporters. Leave supporters should remember that when they choose the next leader. Especially as buyers remorse is likely with a Remain win.
No.
Again, as the article states, if In wins, the Outers must "sign in blood" or join UKIP.
The reverse is also true. If Out wins, Inners likewise have to sign up or find another party
@GPW_Portland: Plenty Ministers, MPs and staffers expressing real concern to me this week about how DC heals wounds post referendum.
They are wrong. There is no need to heal wounds
Tory civil war winner must crush the losers
Forget the vapid posturing about the “Conservative family” “re-uniting”. The family is dysfunctional. Its agonies will not cease until it can make a clear decision about what it stands for on Europe. June 24 will be no time to bury the hatchet, but to sharpen it. An argument will have been settled. That’s what referendums are for.
A crisp instruction will have been issued by the electorate on a question to which no party with pretensions to government can continue to offer two contradictory answers. The months ahead are the Tory party’s chance, with the electorate’s guidance, to make up its mind. Once done, let that moment of clarity be seized, not lost in a flood of eyewash about conciliation.
For a very long time now, a vague sense of perpetual struggle for the Conservative party’s soul has dogged it and the country. Whatever the result, the message on the dawn of June 24 should be not “come together” but “come over — or walk.”
So that was Thatcher's advice shortly before the party removed her? I think that says it all.
There will be every need to heal wounds unless the party wants to become an irrelevance again.
The Tories are not "lancing the boil" over Europe, they are merely prodding at it ineffectively!
To lance a boil effectively, it needs to "point" and after the incision, the pus needs to be completely drained, with the wound laid open so it cannot re-form. It should then be left to heal by secondary intention.
In other words: the toxic material needs to be removed and disposed of. The original article is right.
The toxic material is the obsession with Europe. It is not either side of people. If those who support Leave or those who support Remain make it so then they doom their party. Possibly not for 2020 as Corbyn is even more unelectable but certainly as soon as Labour get their act together.
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do wont it look politically motivated
You just don't do "lazy mistakes" with the most highly classified and secret information and protocols where people's lives are placed at risk and if you wish to be POTUS. Any normal person breaching these protocols would by now be out of the building and most likely in handcuffs.
Anyway, Somehow I just cannot imagine you being as "sympathetic" and "understanding" of a right wing candidate.
In other words: the toxic material needs to be removed and disposed of. The original article is right.
Quite.
As the article also states, it does of course cut both ways. If the Outers win, the Inners are doomed.
Boris (or Gove) as PM with Gove (or Boris) as Chancellor, as we embark on the journey to a brave new world...
Yep. One side or the other needs to prevail.
Labour's road back to power in the nineties was marked by an end to Unilateralism (withdrawal from EU, from NATO and from the nuclear power). Parties seeking election as governments cannot ignore the wider world.
"Some 85 per cent of those aged 65 or over said they would definitely vote (10/10), compared to 53 per cent of 18-24 year-olds. Only 34 per cent of the oldest age group said Britain should remain in the EU, with 66 per cent saying it should leave. In contrast, 70 per cent of 18-24 year-olds wanted Britain to stay and only 30 per cent believed it should quit."
@GPW_Portland: Plenty Ministers, MPs and staffers expressing real concern to me this week about how DC heals wounds post referendum.
They are wrong. There is no need to heal wounds
Tory civil war winner must crush the losers
Forget the vapid posturing about the “Conservative family” “re-uniting”. The family is dysfunctional. Its agonies will not cease until it can make a clear decision about what it stands for on Europe. June 24 will be no time to bury the hatchet, but to sharpen it. An argument will have been settled. That’s what referendums are for.
A crisp instruction will have been issued by the electorate on a question to which no party with pretensions to government can continue to offer two contradictory answers. The months ahead are the Tory party’s chance, with the electorate’s guidance, to make up its mind. Once done, let that moment of clarity be seized, not lost in a flood of eyewash about conciliation.
For a very long time now, a vague sense of perpetual struggle for the Conservative party’s soul has dogged it and the country. Whatever the result, the message on the dawn of June 24 should be not “come together” but “come over — or walk.”
So that was Thatcher's advice shortly before the party removed her? I think that says it all.
There will be every need to heal wounds unless the party wants to become an irrelevance again.
The Tories are not "lancing the boil" over Europe, they are merely prodding at it ineffectively!
To lance a boil effectively, it needs to "point" and after the incision, the pus needs to be completely drained, with the wound laid open so it cannot re-form. It should then be left to heal by secondary intention.
In other words: the toxic material needs to be removed and disposed of. The original article is right.
The toxic material is the obsession with Europe. It is not either side of people. If those who support Leave or those who support Remain make it so then they doom their party. Possibly not for 2020 as Corbyn is even more unelectable but certainly as soon as Labour get their act together.
The obsession with Europe will not end while there are Bitter Enders still fighting a guerilla war, claiming a stab in the back etc.
"Indeed, the British are not that much better travelled when you consider travel outside Europe. Only 44% of Britons have been to North America, 30% have been to Africa, 27% to Asia, 14% to Australia and 12% to South America."
I'm surprised as many as 30% of Brits have been to Africa, although I guess that's mainly because of Morocco, Egypt, Tunisia, etc, rather than sub-Saharan Africa.
I have been to all continents and not the standard holiday spots either but normally some way out places. I have also been to the Arctic and Antartica. I wonder what % that falls into?
I also consider myself very very lucky to have the opportunity to have been able to do so.
Likewise - nearly 80 countries, on all continents. Several of those I could not now safely go back to. I feel very fortunate to have seen them whilst they were still open.
That is a sentiment very much shared by my wife and I
"By my wife and ME"!
Sorry no. My wife and I was the regular and proper way to refer up until the 80's and 90's. Very bad to say "me" and was chastised for it meany times when at School. Still struggle not to say I even now but me seems to be the new way.
Slipping standards like that mirror the decline of the country, Is it any wonder it is a merde heap nowadays.
So the Tories were irrelevant when they were led by people who want out of Europe (IDS, Howard), and in Government when led by someone who wants to remain.
Interesting...
Oh don't be bloody ridiculous. They were irrelevant because they were in opposition against mountain-sized Labour majorities. They were in opposition in no small part because of their perceived obsession with Europe, whether or not the public agreed (which largely they did).
@GPW_Portland: Plenty Ministers, MPs and staffers expressing real concern to me this week about how DC heals wounds post referendum.
They are wrong. There is no need to heal wounds
Tory civil war winner must crush the losers
Forget the vapid posturing about the “Conservative family” “re-uniting”. The family is dysfunctional. Its agonies will not cease until it can make a clear decision about what it stands for on Europe. June 24 will be no time to bury the hatchet, but to sharpen it. An argument will have been settled. That’s what referendums are for.
A crisp instruction will have been issued by the electorate on a question to which no party with pretensions to government can continue to offer two contradictory answers. The months ahead are the Tory party’s chance, with the electorate’s guidance, to make up its mind. Once done, let that moment of clarity be seized, not lost in a flood of eyewash about conciliation.
For a very long time now, a vague sense of perpetual struggle for the Conservative party’s soul has dogged it and the country. Whatever the result, the message on the dawn of June 24 should be not “come together” but “come over — or walk.”
So that was Thatcher's advice shortly before the party removed her? I think that says it all.
There will be every need to heal wounds unless the party wants to become an irrelevance again.
Its pretty clear many Tory Remain supporters do not have any tolerance at all for Leave supporters. Leave supporters should remember that when they choose the next leader. Especially as buyers remorse is likely with a Remain win.
This advice is from that arch snob Matthew Parris. Is there a writer more out of touch?
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do it'll look politically motivated
I think that unless there is evidence of harm to a US agent or operation then the breach of email policy will not fly as an issue. So far I have seen no evidence of harm, and I suspect that the US electorate will not either.
I think HRC will be an excellent President, though my betting position is on Hair Bear!
There's something reassuring about Hilary as there is in most female leaders (Thatcher and Goda Meir apart) It would be a nice feeling to know the US's vast arsenal was in her hands
Exactly, and the referendum is the end of that obsession, either way.
There must be winners, and losers, either way. No consolation prizes. winner takes all.
Leaving the EU is more important than party loyalty for many Leavers. There will be no respect shown for the referendum result, no matter what the margin, by such people, who will fervently believe that the public were wickedly duped.
The Republicans controlled neither House in 1973-4 but they did have a blocking minority against supermajority measures including impeachment, so your point stands. And Nixon in 1972 was much more popular than Hillary is now, never mind what she'd be if she pardoned herself as president.
Out of curiosity, can a President even legally attempt to pardon themselves, or do conflict of interest rules apply?
Ford did of course pardon Nixon. My personal view remains that if it's emails only, and Trump is the GOP candidate, Obama might still pardon Clinton and say she was acting with his approval. Moreover, it's not inconceivable she could still beat Trump on that basis although it would be a horrible campaign.
These other allegations however, if they are true and the FBI did prosecute, might well be a different matter. A pardon for such offences would be a much murkier business.
Legally, yes: it's a constitutional right of any president and isn't restricted. Impeachment is the check and balance against misuse.
The problem with Obama pardoning her prospectively is that it implies that there was a case against her which would then be written off. I can't see him doing that before the election because of the effect it would have with the public. I's a possibility if charges haven't been laid by the election he might do it between November and January.
Ford's pardon of Nixon was after the latter's career had already crashed in flames.
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do wont it look politically motivated
You just don't do "lazy mistakes" with the most highly classified and secret information and protocols where people's lives are placed at risk and if you wish to be POTUS. Any normal person breaching these protocols would by now be out of the building and most likely in handcuffs.
Anyway, Somehow I just cannot imagine you being as "sympathetic" and "understanding" of a right wing candidate.
Yes, that was the pb Tory reaction to Michael Gove using private email addresses. George Bush doing likewise was similarly unremarkable. Short of Hillary having snow on her boots, this is going nowhere.
@GPW_Portland: Plenty Ministers, MPs and staffers expressing real concern to me this week about how DC heals wounds post referendum.
They are wrong. There is no need to heal wounds
Tory civil war winner must crush the losers
Forget the vapid posturing about the “Conservative family” “re-uniting”. The family is dysfunctional. Its agonies will not cease until it can make a clear decision about what it stands for on Europe. June 24 will be no time to bury the hatchet, but to sharpen it. An argument will have been settled. That’s what referendums are for.
A crisp instruction will have been issued by the electorate on a question to which no party with pretensions to government can continue to offer two contradictory answers. The months ahead are the Tory party’s chance, with the electorate’s guidance, to make up its mind. Once done, let that moment of clarity be seized, not lost in a flood of eyewash about conciliation.
For a very long time now, a vague sense of perpetual struggle for the Conservative party’s soul has dogged it and the country. Whatever the result, the message on the dawn of June 24 should be not “come together” but “come over — or walk.”
So that was Thatcher's advice shortly before the party removed her? I think that says it all.
There will be every need to heal wounds unless the party wants to become an irrelevance again.
The Tories are not "lancing the boil" over Europe, they are merely prodding at it ineffectively!
To lance a boil effectively, it needs to "point" and after the incision, the pus needs to be completely drained, with the wound laid open so it cannot re-form. It should then be left to heal by secondary intention.
In other words: the toxic material needs to be removed and disposed of. The original article is right.
The toxic material is the obsession with Europe. It is not either side of people. If those who support Leave or those who support Remain make it so then they doom their party. Possibly not for 2020 as Corbyn is even more unelectable but certainly as soon as Labour get their act together.
The obsession with Europe will not end while there are Bitter Enders still fighting a guerilla war, claiming a stab in the back etc.
If one or two obsessives want to leave and go to UKIP or the Lib Dems or wherever then that may be for the best. What would be fatal would be a witchhunt based solely on which side individuals supported.
"Indeed, the British are not that much better travelled when you consider travel outside Europe. Only 44% of Britons have been to North America, 30% have been to Africa, 27% to Asia, 14% to Australia and 12% to South America."
I'm surprised as many as 30% of Brits have been to Africa, although I guess that's mainly because of Morocco, Egypt, Tunisia, etc, rather than sub-Saharan Africa.
I have been to all continents and not the standard holiday spots either but normally some way out places. I have also been to the Arctic and Antartica. I wonder what % that falls into?
I also consider myself very very lucky to have the opportunity to have been able to do so.
Likewise - nearly 80 countries, on all continents. Several of those I could not now safely go back to. I feel very fortunate to have seen them whilst they were still open.
That is a sentiment very much shared by my wife and I
"By my wife and ME"!
Sorry no. My wife and I was the regular and proper way to refer up until the 80's and 90's. Very bad to say "me" and was chastised for it meany times when at School. Still struggle not to say I even now but me seems to be the new way.
Slipping standards like that mirror the decline of the country, Is it any wonder it is a merde heap nowadays.
What about "How are you?" . Reply: "I am good". If the latter was feeling unwell, would he/she have said "I am bad". They might, who knows ?
Exactly, and the referendum is the end of that obsession, either way.
There must be winners, and losers, either way. No consolation prizes. winner takes all.
Leaving the EU is more important than party loyalty for many Leavers. There will be no respect shown for the referendum result, no matter what the margin, by such people, who will fervently believe that the public were wickedly duped.
Remaining in EU is ......etc etc... Look at how far Cameron is willing to cause trouble in his own party.
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do wont it look politically motivated
You just don't do "lazy mistakes" with the most highly classified and secret information and protocols where people's lives are placed at risk and if you wish to be POTUS. Any normal person breaching these protocols would by now be out of the building and most likely in handcuffs.
Anyway, Somehow I just cannot imagine you being as "sympathetic" and "understanding" of a right wing candidate.
Yes, that was the pb Tory reaction to Michael Gove using private email addresses. George Bush doing likewise was similarly unremarkable. Short of Hillary having snow on her boots, this is going nowhere.
Didn't Brown and Harman do it as well? Or am I muddling them up with McBride?
It's not something most people are going to be exercised about if they already like her. If it was Bill, we probably wouldn't even be talking about it. It is precisely because very few people actually like her that it's a potential issue, much as with Gove.
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do wont it look politically motivated
"Indeed, the British are not that much better travelled when you consider travel outside Europe. Only 44% of Britons have been to North America, 30% have been to Africa, 27% to Asia, 14% to Australia and 12% to South America."
I'm surprised as many as 30% of Brits have been to Africa, although I guess that's mainly because of Morocco, Egypt, Tunisia, etc, rather than sub-Saharan Africa.
I have been to all continents and not the standard holiday spots either but normally some way out places. I have also been to the Arctic and Antartica. I wonder what % that falls into?
I also consider myself very very lucky to have the opportunity to have been able to do so.
Likewise - nearly 80 countries, on all continents. Several of those I could not now safely go back to. I feel very fortunate to have seen them whilst they were still open.
That is a sentiment very much shared by my wife and I
"By my wife and ME"!
Sorry no. My wife and I was the regular and proper way to refer up until the 80's and 90's. Very bad to say "me" and was chastised for it meany times when at School. Still struggle not to say I even now but me seems to be the new way.
Slipping standards like that mirror the decline of the country, Is it any wonder it is a merde heap nowadays.
My youngest at Uni spends more time texting and me than calling for a chat. Texts me every day pretty much but I wonder if this has led to some decline as well. Even handwriting styles are being lost in general. I was taught to write in pure italics (with an italic ink pen) when I was at junior school and had to use ink pen up to my O levels. I still use italics today, one of the few things I am complimented on when people see my normal handwriting. I have succumbed a bit lately to a thin fibre tipped ink pen but really don't like biros except when I was on site where if lost its not a worry.
Exactly, and the referendum is the end of that obsession, either way.
There must be winners, and losers, either way. No consolation prizes. winner takes all.
Leaving the EU is more important than party loyalty for many Leavers. There will be no respect shown for the referendum result, no matter what the margin, by such people, who will fervently believe that the public were wickedly duped.
Remaining in EU is ......etc etc... Look at how far Cameron is willing to cause trouble in his own party.
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
"Indeed, the British are not that much better travelled when you consider travel outside Europe. Only 44% of Britons have been to North America, 30% have been to Africa, 27% to Asia, 14% to Australia and 12% to South America."
I'm surprised as many as 30% of Brits have been to Africa, although I guess that's mainly because of Morocco, Egypt, Tunisia, etc, rather than sub-Saharan Africa.
I have been to all continents and not the standard holiday spots either but normally some way out places. I have also been to the Arctic and Antartica. I wonder what % that falls into?
I also consider myself very very lucky to have the opportunity to have been able to do so.
Likewise - nearly 80 countries, on all continents. Several of those I could not now safely go back to. I feel very fortunate to have seen them whilst they were still open.
That is a sentiment very much shared by my wife and I
"By my wife and ME"!
Sorry no. My wife and I was the regular and proper way to refer up until the 80's and 90's. Very bad to say "me" and was chastised for it meany times when at School. Still struggle not to say I even now but me seems to be the new way.
Slipping standards like that mirror the decline of the country, Is it any wonder it is a merde heap nowadays.
What about "How are you?" . Reply: "I am good". If the latter was feeling unwell, would he/she have said "I am bad". They might, who knows ?
I thought normal greetings these days when meeting were
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do wont it look politically motivated
You just don't do "lazy mistakes" with the most highly classified and secret information and protocols where people's lives are placed at risk and if you wish to be POTUS. Any normal person breaching these protocols would by now be out of the building and most likely in handcuffs.
Anyway, Somehow I just cannot imagine you being as "sympathetic" and "understanding" of a right wing candidate.
It's just some things are worthy of bringing down a political career and some aren't. And this surely isn't
"Indeed, the British are not that much better travelled when you consider travel outside Europe. Only 44% of Britons have been to North America, 30% have been to Africa, 27% to Asia, 14% to Australia and 12% to South America."
I'm surprised as many as 30% of Brits have been to Africa, although I guess that's mainly because of Morocco, Egypt, Tunisia, etc, rather than sub-Saharan Africa.
I have been to all continents and not the standard holiday spots either but normally some way out places. I have also been to the Arctic and Antartica. I wonder what % that falls into?
I also consider myself very very lucky to have the opportunity to have been able to do so.
Likewise - nearly 80 countries, on all continents. Several of those I could not now safely go back to. I feel very fortunate to have seen them whilst they were still open.
That is a sentiment very much shared by my wife and I
"By my wife and ME"!
Sorry no. My wife and I was the regular and proper way to refer up until the 80's and 90's. Very bad to say "me" and was chastised for it meany times when at School. Still struggle not to say I even now but me seems to be the new way.
Slipping standards like that mirror the decline of the country, Is it any wonder it is a merde heap nowadays.
My youngest at Uni spends more time texting and me than calling for a chat. Texts me every day pretty much but I wonder if this has led to some decline as well. Even handwriting styles are being lost in general. I was taught to write in pure italics (with an italic ink pen) when I was at junior school and had to use ink pen up to my O levels. I still use italics today, one of the few things I am complimented on when people see my normal handwriting. I have succumbed a bit lately to a thin fibre tipped ink pen but really don't like biros except when I was on site where if lost its not a worry.
Pilot makes disposable fountain pens which imo are better than the real thing (but don't tell the greens). That said, my pen of choice is the Pilot G2-07 gel ink rollerball. Next time you win £25 on the lottery, buy a variety of different pens and try them -- pens and ink have improved since our schooldays.
Exactly, and the referendum is the end of that obsession, either way.
There must be winners, and losers, either way. No consolation prizes. winner takes all.
Leaving the EU is more important than party loyalty for many Leavers. There will be no respect shown for the referendum result, no matter what the margin, by such people, who will fervently believe that the public were wickedly duped.
Remaining in EU is ......etc etc... Look at how far Cameron is willing to cause trouble in his own party.
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
Just like the Scottish referendum, and nutshells what is wrong with referenda.
Exactly, and the referendum is the end of that obsession, either way.
There must be winners, and losers, either way. No consolation prizes. winner takes all.
It won't end. We've already seen bleating about the prospect of people being fired in the event of remain. We've already seen the narrative to excuse leave if it fails re Cameron unfairness. Will most on both sides want to play nice? Probably. But enough will be seething whatever happens. Either a PM was taken down by rivals, or we are in the eu - strong reasons to continue bitterness.
Thinking about it leave might be best for visible unity at least as unlike leave the conservative remainers do not have another party option that is appropriate. For MPs and party members anyway.
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do wont it look politically motivated
You just don't do "lazy mistakes" with the most highly classified and secret information and protocols where people's lives are placed at risk and if you wish to be POTUS. Any normal person breaching these protocols would by now be out of the building and most likely in handcuffs.
Anyway, Somehow I just cannot imagine you being as "sympathetic" and "understanding" of a right wing candidate.
I just some things are worthy of bringing down a political career and some aren't. And this surely isn't
Maybe?
It remains an act that had a lesser mortal committed it would receive an instant dismissal. Even in the commercial world had this been done with strategic company information this would have been likely. It was also stated on previous revelations that various people were named in the Emails putting them at very serious risk. (reports indicate)
Mind you, not to worry about all that minor petty stuff , can't put Hilary's career at risk now can we, eh?
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do wont it look politically motivated
You just don't do "lazy mistakes" with the most highly classified and secret information and protocols where people's lives are placed at risk and if you wish to be POTUS. Any normal person breaching these protocols would by now be out of the building and most likely in handcuffs.
Anyway, Somehow I just cannot imagine you being as "sympathetic" and "understanding" of a right wing candidate.
It's just some things are worthy of bringing down a political career and some aren't. And this surely isn't
It maybe should be - it sounds like not a minor slip with very sensitive info, but major - but you are probably right. If someone was not harmed many will not care even though they should.
So that was Thatcher's advice shortly before the party removed her? I think that says it all.
There will be every need to heal wounds unless the party wants to become an irrelevance again.
The Tories are not "lancing the boil" over Europe, they are merely prodding at it ineffectively!
To lance a boil effectively, it needs to "point" and after the incision, the pus needs to be completely drained, with the wound laid open so it cannot re-form. It should then be left to heal by secondary intention.
In other words: the toxic material needs to be removed and disposed of. The original article is right.
The toxic material is the obsession with Europe. It is not either side of people. If those who support Leave or those who support Remain make it so then they doom their party. Possibly not for 2020 as Corbyn is even more unelectable but certainly as soon as Labour get their act together.
Europe, the EU the Eurozone exist. It, they, are not going to go away. Its not a boil its a birthmark and we have to live with it. The obsession is stupid because leaving the EU will leave us is a position very little different from now. The real fruit loops are the ones who want to leave the planet completely and do not want to access the single market by joining the EEA. They ignore what a 'free trade' agreement really means. For these people the EU is just a surrogate for their obsession with and hatred for immigrants no matter where they come from and the majority of immigrants come from outside the EU. I am not voting for representatives of or apologists for BNPlite. Any tory looking at the EU referendum as a beauty parade for next leader needs to be careful because they may just end up parading themselves looking stupid.
"Indeed, the British are not that much better travelled when you consider travel outside Europe. Only 44% of Britons have been to North America, 30% have been to Africa, 27% to Asia, 14% to Australia and 12% to South America."
I'm surprised as many as 30% of Brits have been to Africa, although I guess that's mainly because of Morocco, Egypt, Tunisia, etc, rather than sub-Saharan Africa.
I have been to all continents and not the standard holiday spots either but normally some way out places. I have also been to the Arctic and Antartica. I wonder what % that falls into?
I also consider myself very very lucky to have the opportunity to have been able to do so.
Likewise - nearly 80 countries, on all continents. Several of those I could not now safely go back to. I feel very fortunate to have seen them whilst they were still open.
That is a sentiment very much shared by my wife and I
"By my wife and ME"!
Sorry no. My wife and I was the regular and proper way to refer up until the 80's and 90's. Very bad to say "me" and was chastised for it meany times when at School. Still struggle not to say I even now but me seems to be the new way.
Slipping standards like that mirror the decline of the country, Is it any wonder it is a merde heap nowadays.
My youngest at Uni spends more time texting and me than calling for a chat. Texts me every day pretty much but I wonder if this has led to some decline as well. Even handwriting styles are being lost in general. I was taught to write in pure italics (with an italic ink pen) when I was at junior school and had to use ink pen up to my O levels. I still use italics today, one of the few things I am complimented on when people see my normal handwriting. I have succumbed a bit lately to a thin fibre tipped ink pen but really don't like biros except when I was on site where if lost its not a worry.
Pilot makes disposable fountain pens which imo are better than the real thing (but don't tell the greens). That said, my pen of choice is the Pilot G2-07 gel ink rollerball. Next time you win £25 on the lottery, buy a variety of different pens and try them -- pens and ink have improved since our schooldays.
The fact that Hillary Clinton is the subject of an FBI criminal investigation has been known for several months, as is the fact that 150 FBI special agents are working on it - a huge number. This merely confirms it publicly.
There is another track to this. A FOIA request by Judicial Watch was granted discovery by a federal court judge yesterday. This could easily result in Hillary being deposed under oath.
They have been saying that for months if not years, Rome was built faster than this investigation as the article at the top of this thread makes clear the longer it goes on the more farcical it could become
I'm tempted to agree. Its not that the voters are not aware. They are still going to vote for her. The FBI should be investigating the Republican Party. How is it that they have let a total turd like Trump into their Primary process? Have they been infiltrated by communists? Trump has had no political background or interest whatsoever and is only in this campaign for himself. Yet they allow him to pretend he is a Republican and represent them. Dickheads.
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
I'm calling specious bullshit on that.
Leavers are better at abuse than rational argument. You make Alistair's point for him.
What I object to to is the underlying smugness that Remainers are claiming to be better democrats than Leavers. Because they will accept the democratic will of the people. That is bullshit. Leave wins by 51% to 49%. The EU panic and offer better terms to keep us in. Who is going to be saying "Hang on, let's not be hasty. Let's hear what they have to say...." The Leavers? Sure...yeah...whatever.... They won't be the ones not accepting the outcome.
I'll call out bullshit where I see it. And I'm seeing it in Mr Meeks' post.
Turnout is clearly going to be a major deciding factor in June. I cannot see it being at GE levels. It'll be lower. You'll know if the Remain side agrees when the focus of its campaign turns to pensions.
A Leave vote may also make the case against Corbyn stronger within Labour. It will certainly help to concentrate union minds facing not only anti-union Tory legislation, but also the loss of EU worker rights. Against that, I guess, is that plenty of deluded souls will convince themselves that the Tories at war will give Labour a chance in 2020, bless them.
@GPW_Portland: Plenty Ministers, MPs and staffers expressing real concern to me this week about how DC heals wounds post referendum.
They are wrong. There is no need to heal wounds
Tory civil war winner must crush the losers
Forget the vapid posturing about the “Conservative family” “re-uniting”. The family is dysfunctional. Its agonies will not cease until it can make a clear decision about what it stands for on Europe. June 24 will be no time to bury the hatchet, but to sharpen it. An argument will have been settled. That’s what referendums are for.
A crisp instruction will have been issued by the electorate on a question to which no party with pretensions to government can continue to offer two contradictory answers. The but “come over — or walk.”
So that was Thatcher's advice shortly before the party removed her? I think that says it all.
There will be every need to heal wounds unless the party wants to become an irrelevance again.
The Tories areneeds to be completely drained, with the wound laid open so it cannot re-form. It should then be left to heal by secondary intention.
In other words: the toxic material needs to be removed and disposed of. The original article is right.
The toxic together.
The obsession with Europe will not end while there are Bitter Enders still fighting a guerilla war, claiming a stab in the back etc.
If one or two obsessives want to leave and go to UKIP or the Lib Dems or wherever then that may be for the best. What would be fatal would be a witchhunt based solely on which side individuals supported. Witch hunts rarely end well and a line must be drawn to stop endless recriminations on many divisive issues. But some figures get excluded from acts of indemnity and oblivion because to draw that line and move on the most senior figures do need to face consequences to stop things just festering further.
I've no doubt the Tories will go for reconciliation and hugs, and well done them if it works. But I feel very confident they will continue to be torn I this issue as they have been my entire life, and trying to include all in both sides will result in power struggles. Even if they don't mean to - alternate leadership is already talked of with this split, and speculation will talk the non winners up as still wanting that.
The Hilary e-mail situation is surely dependent on what was in them - a little like phone hacking. If they're the equivalent of Steve Coogan's or Hugh Grant's private life, then no one will be interested. The Milly Dowler case was different.
One American paper I read suggested they could lead to deaths of agents abroad. But I suspect they were guessing too, like the posters on here. That's why trying the equivalence excuse is silly.
Allowing foreign agents access to Bill's sex secrets is not the same as breaking the cover and dooming your agents abroad.
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do wont it look politically motivated
You just don't do "lazy mistakes" with the most highly classified and secret information and protocols where people's lives are placed at risk and if you wish to be POTUS. Any normal person breaching these protocols would by now be out of the building and most likely in handcuffs.
Anyway, Somehow I just cannot imagine you being as "sympathetic" and "understanding" of a right wing candidate.
I just some things are worthy of bringing down a political career and some aren't. And this surely isn't
Maybe?
It remains an act that had a lesser mortal committed it would receive an instant dismissal. Even in the commercial world had this been done with strategic company information this would have been likely. It was also stated on previous revelations that various people were named in the Emails putting them at very serious risk. (reports indicate)
Mind you, not to worry about all that minor petty stuff , can't put Hilary's career at risk now can we, eh?
As a junior minister, Oliver Letwin scattered official secrets all around London's parks and was promoted to Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Even if people should care, they don't.
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do wont it look politically motivated
You just don't do "lazy mistakes" with the most highly classified and secret information and protocols where people's lives are placed at risk and if you wish to be POTUS. Any normal person breaching these protocols would by now be out of the building and most likely in handcuffs.
Anyway, Somehow I just cannot imagine you being as "sympathetic" and "understanding" of a right wing candidate.
It's just some things are worthy of bringing down a political career and some aren't. And this surely isn't
Depends on the career. It would have been a tragedy if Lincoln's defeat in a House election had led to the antislavery movement abandoning him. But Clinton is more a Buchanan than a Lincoln.
@GPW_Portland: Plenty Ministers, MPs and staffers expressing real concern to me this week about how DC heals wounds post referendum.
They are wrong. There is no need to heal wounds
Tory civil war winner must crush the losers
Forget the vapid posturing about the “Conservative family” “re-uniting”. The family is dysfunctional. Its agonies will not cease until it can make a clear decision about what it stands for on Europe. June 24 will be no time to bury the hatchet, but to sharpen it. An argument will have been settled. That’s what referendums are for.
A crisp instruction will have been issued by the electorate on a question to which no party with pretensions to government can continue to offer two contradictory answers. The but “come over — or walk.”
So that was Thatcher's advice shortly before the party removed her? I think that says it all.
There will be every need to heal wounds unless the party wants to become an irrelevance again.
The Tories areneeds to be completely drained, with the wound laid open so it cannot re-form. It should then be left to heal by secondary intention.
In other words: the toxic material needs to be removed and disposed of. The original article is right.
The toxic together.
The obsession with Europe will not end while there are Bitter Enders still fighting a guerilla war, claiming a stab in the back etc.
If one or two obsessives want to leave and go to UKIP or the Lib Dems or wherever then that may be for the best. What would be fatal would be a witchhunt based solely on which side individuals supported.
Witch hunts rarely end well and a line must be drawn to stop endless recriminations on many divisive issues. But some figures get excluded from acts of indemnity and oblivion because to draw that line and move on the most senior figures do need to face consequences to stop things just festering further.
I've no doubt the Tories will go for reconciliation and hugs, and well done them if it works. But I feel very confident they will continue to be torn I this issue as they have been my entire life, and trying to include all in both sides will result in power struggles. Even if they don't mean to - alternate leadership is already talked of with this split, and speculation will talk the non winners up as still wanting that.
The EEA route basically means more of the same. Day to day voters will notice no change. That means continued Tory civil war.
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do wont it look politically motivated
You just don't do "lazy mistakes" with the most highly classified and secret information and protocols where people's lives are placed at risk and if you wish to be POTUS. Any normal person breaching these protocols would by now be out of the building and most likely in handcuffs.
Anyway, Somehow I just cannot imagine you being as "sympathetic" and "understanding" of a right wing candidate.
I just some things are worthy of bringing down a political career and some aren't. And this surely isn't
Maybe?
It remains an act that had a lesser mortal committed it would receive an instant dismissal. Even in the commercial world had this been done with strategic company information this would have been likely. It was also stated on previous revelations that various people were named in the Emails putting them at very serious risk. (reports indicate)
Mind you, not to worry about all that minor petty stuff , can't put Hilary's career at risk now can we, eh?
As a junior minister, Oliver Letwin scattered official secrets all around London's parks and was promoted to Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Even if people should care, they don't.
Somebody trusted Oliver Letwin with official secrets?!!!
"Indeed, the British are not that much better travelled when you consider travel outside Europe. Only 44% of Britons have been to North America, 30% have been to Africa, 27% to Asia, 14% to Australia and 12% to South America."
I'm surprised as many as 30% of Brits have been to Africa, although I guess that's mainly because of Morocco, Egypt, Tunisia, etc, rather than sub-Saharan Africa.
I have been to all continents and not the standard holiday spots either but normally some way out places. I have also been to the Arctic and Antartica. I wonder what % that falls into?
I also consider myself very very lucky to have the opportunity to have been able to do so.
Likewise - nearly 80 countries, on all continents. Several of those I could not now safely go back to. I feel very fortunate to have seen them whilst they were still open.
That is a sentiment very much shared by my wife and I
"By my wife and ME"!
I think either are OK. What is offensive though are people who refer to THE wife!
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do wont it look politically motivated
You just don't do "lazy mistakes" with the most highly classified and secret information and protocols where people's lives are placed at risk and if you wish to be POTUS. Any normal person breaching these protocols would by now be out of the building and most likely in handcuffs.
Anyway, Somehow I just cannot imagine you being as "sympathetic" and "understanding" of a right wing candidate.
I just some things are worthy of bringing down a political career and some aren't. And this surely isn't
Maybe?
It remains an act that had a lesser mortal committed it would receive an instant dismissal. Even in the commercial world had this been done with strategic company information this would have been likely. It was also stated on previous revelations that various people were named in the Emails putting them at very serious risk. (reports indicate)
Mind you, not to worry about all that minor petty stuff , can't put Hilary's career at risk now can we, eh?
As a junior minister, Oliver Letwin scattered official secrets all around London's parks and was promoted to Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Even if people should care, they don't.
That must have been to keep him out of the way of any sensitive information. Doesn't the Dutchy of Lancaster just deal with Prince Charles's gardening hints?
Comments
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-voters-more-likely-to-turn-out-in-force-poll-finds-a6898766.html
3.8
I was thinking of tying together two topics today and asking "Is Britain destined to be forever the EU's South Carolina?", talking about nullification, secession threats and so on, and bringing in, inter alia, John C Calhoun, Fort Sumter and other assorted historical highlights of the feisty antebellum state, but couldn't find a way to make it really work.
Note - I'm not sure what the theoretical maximum turnout is, given double-registration of students and others with properties in more than one council area, and others on the electoral roll who legally can't vote for one reason or another e.g. EU citizens at GEs.
Were she incredibly popular, such a move would tarnish her badly but her aura would protect her sufficiently. But she's not popular and such a move would look (and be) like the tawdry attempts of political desperation. What would Democrat congressmen and senators gain from tying themselves to such an outrageous manoeuvre?
Conspiracy theorists might also think that the FBI would want to ensure Hillary gets a smooth ride to the White House anyway - because they wouldn't want to have to deal with President Trump.
Not a vast number, sure i must have missed some.
Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Poland, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, France, Spain, Switzerland, Italy, San Marino, Monaco, Austria, Slovenia, Greece, Malta, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Turkey, Russia, Liechtenstein, Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, Sudan, Djibouti, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen (YAR, PDRY both), UAE, Qater, Bahrain, Kuwait, Iraq, Ghana, Nigeria, Kenya, South Africa, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, The Maldives, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Australia, Fiji, Tahiti, China, Hong Kong, Macau, Canada, US, Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Ecuador, Venezuela, Trinidad (and Tobago), Grenada, St Vincent and the Grenadines, Anguilla, Bermuda, Barbados, the Dominican Republic, Turks and Caicos
For the USA I have been to: Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, Tennessee, Maryland, Washington DC, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, California, Oregon, US Virgin Islands and Peurto Rico. 24 states and 3 territories. I haven't covered the Midwest or Great Plains very well, but the Sunbelt is ticked off completely. My favourite state was New Mexico. So much to do there and so much beautiful scenery.
The FBI is not politically oriented. She is potentially facing charges regarding improper handling of classified information, about 1800 counts, and also public corruption charges. Both are big deals and carry substantial penalties, both fines and jail time.
It's in the FBI's interest to proceed as soon as their case is complete.
How do they recruit to their panel?
It might be a bit early to talk of rats and sinking ships but before long that will be the message from labour. Let's be honest, Dave is quite good at winning elections but beyond that he's not much cop. I find that disappointing, he had a mandate and an opportunity to make a big difference.
It’s weird though. What a strange system, where it seems anyone can claim they are a Party member and run on the party’s ticket.
They are wrong. There is no need to heal wounds
Tory civil war winner must crush the losers http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4700654.ece
FG 24.8, Labour 7.1%, Fianna Fáil 21.1% , Sinn Féin 16, Independents 11%;
(AAA-PBP 4.7%; Social Democrats 3.7%; Green Party 3.6%, the Independent Alliance 3%, Renua 2.4% and Others 2.6%)
http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0227/771143-general-election-saturday/
So that was Thatcher's advice shortly before the party removed her? I think that says it all.
There will be every need to heal wounds unless the party wants to become an irrelevance again.
I agree with those upthread that fresh elections seem the only answer.
"irrelevance again" - When were they irrelevant before?
A party that aligns behind the majority position of the British people can hardly be described as irrelevant, but that alignment requires losers to know they lost
No prizes for all
Algeria ,Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas,Bahrain,Bangladesh, Barbados,Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina,Brazil, Brunei, Bulgaria, Cameroon, Canada, Central African Republic, Chile,China, Colombia, Congo, Republic of the, Congo, Democratic Republic of the, Costa Rica, Côte d'Ivoire, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, Equatorial Guinea, Fiji, Finland, France, Gabon, Germany, Greece, Greenland, Guyana, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Libya, Luxembourg, Madagascar, Malaysia, Malta, Mexico, Monaco,Montenegro, Morocco, Myanmar (Burma), Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Panama Papua New Guinea, Peru,Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Romania, Russia, St. Kitts and Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent and The Grenadines, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, Seychelles, Singapore, Slovakia, Solomon Islands, South Africa South Korea, South Sudan, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Thailand, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia Turkey, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, USA (United States of America), Uruguay, Vatican City (Holy See),
Venezuela, Vietnam, Yemen, Zimbabwe.
Also Pitcairn Island , the Falklands both Arctic and Antarctic circles.
Most of those countries I have been too more than once.
Like said previously I consider myself very fortunate to have been able to do so.
There will be every need to heal wounds unless the party wants to become an irrelevance again.
The Tories are not "lancing the boil" over Europe, they are merely prodding at it ineffectively!
To lance a boil effectively, it needs to "point" and after the incision, the pus needs to be completely drained, with the wound laid open so it cannot re-form. It should then be left to heal by secondary intention.
In other words: the toxic material needs to be removed and disposed of. The original article is right.
There will be every need to heal wounds unless the party wants to become an irrelevance again.
Its pretty clear many Tory Remain supporters do not have any tolerance at all for Leave supporters. Leave supporters should remember that when they choose the next leader. Especially as buyers remorse is likely with a Remain win.
As the article also states, it does of course cut both ways. If the Outers win, the Inners are doomed.
Boris (or Gove) as PM with Gove (or Boris) as Chancellor, as we embark on the journey to a brave new world...
Ford did of course pardon Nixon. My personal view remains that if it's emails only, and Trump is the GOP candidate, Obama might still pardon Clinton and say she was acting with his approval. Moreover, it's not inconceivable she could still beat Trump on that basis although it would be a horrible campaign.
These other allegations however, if they are true and the FBI did prosecute, might well be a different matter. A pardon for such offences would be a much murkier business.
Interesting...
I think HRC will be an excellent President, though my betting position is on Hair Bear!
Again, as the article states, if In wins, the Outers must "sign in blood" or join UKIP.
The reverse is also true. If Out wins, Inners likewise have to sign up or find another party
To lance a boil effectively, it needs to "point" and after the incision, the pus needs to be completely drained, with the wound laid open so it cannot re-form. It should then be left to heal by secondary intention.
In other words: the toxic material needs to be removed and disposed of. The original article is right.
The toxic material is the obsession with Europe. It is not either side of people. If those who support Leave or those who support Remain make it so then they doom their party. Possibly not for 2020 as Corbyn is even more unelectable but certainly as soon as Labour get their act together.
Anyway, Somehow I just cannot imagine you being as "sympathetic" and "understanding" of a right wing candidate.
Not sure I can see Clinton being stopped.
There must be winners, and losers, either way. No consolation prizes. winner takes all.
Labour's road back to power in the nineties was marked by an end to Unilateralism (withdrawal from EU, from NATO and from the nuclear power). Parties seeking election as governments cannot ignore the wider world.
The obsession with Europe will not end while there are Bitter Enders still fighting a guerilla war, claiming a stab in the back etc.
This advice is from that arch snob Matthew Parris. Is there a writer more out of touch?
The problem with Obama pardoning her prospectively is that it implies that there was a case against her which would then be written off. I can't see him doing that before the election because of the effect it would have with the public. I's a possibility if charges haven't been laid by the election he might do it between November and January.
Ford's pardon of Nixon was after the latter's career had already crashed in flames.
If one or two obsessives want to leave and go to UKIP or the Lib Dems or wherever then that may be for the best. What would be fatal would be a witchhunt based solely on which side individuals supported.
It's not something most people are going to be exercised about if they already like her. If it was Bill, we probably wouldn't even be talking about it. It is precisely because very few people actually like her that it's a potential issue, much as with Gove.
With Trump as her rival, however...
The wooden spoon decider between Scotland and Italy...
"alright?"
"Alright?"
"Yeah mate you?"
"Good"
"Ok".........
Thinking about it leave might be best for visible unity at least as unlike leave the conservative remainers do not have another party option that is appropriate. For MPs and party members anyway.
It remains an act that had a lesser mortal committed it would receive an instant dismissal. Even in the commercial world had this been done with strategic company information this would have been likely. It was also stated on previous revelations that various people were named in the Emails putting them at very serious risk. (reports indicate)
Mind you, not to worry about all that minor petty stuff , can't put Hilary's career at risk now can we, eh?
#PullThePlugSaturday
Europe, the EU the Eurozone exist. It, they, are not going to go away. Its not a boil its a birthmark and we have to live with it.
The obsession is stupid because leaving the EU will leave us is a position very little different from now. The real fruit loops are the ones who want to leave the planet completely and do not want to access the single market by joining the EEA. They ignore what a 'free trade' agreement really means. For these people the EU is just a surrogate for their obsession with and hatred for immigrants no matter where they come from and the majority of immigrants come from outside the EU. I am not voting for representatives of or apologists for BNPlite.
Any tory looking at the EU referendum as a beauty parade for next leader needs to be careful because they may just end up parading themselves looking stupid.
The FBI should be investigating the Republican Party. How is it that they have let a total turd like Trump into their Primary process? Have they been infiltrated by communists? Trump has had no political background or interest whatsoever and is only in this campaign for himself. Yet they allow him to pretend he is a Republican and represent them. Dickheads.
I'll call out bullshit where I see it. And I'm seeing it in Mr Meeks' post.
A Leave vote may also make the case against Corbyn stronger within Labour. It will certainly help to concentrate union minds facing not only anti-union Tory legislation, but also the loss of EU worker rights. Against that, I guess, is that plenty of deluded souls will convince themselves that the Tories at war will give Labour a chance in 2020, bless them.
Witch hunts rarely end well and a line must be drawn to stop endless recriminations on many divisive issues. But some figures get excluded from acts of indemnity and oblivion because to draw that line and move on the most senior figures do need to face consequences to stop things just festering further.
I've no doubt the Tories will go for reconciliation and hugs, and well done them if it works. But I feel very confident they will continue to be torn I this issue as they have been my entire life, and trying to include all in both sides will result in power struggles. Even if they don't mean to - alternate leadership is already talked of with this split, and speculation will talk the non winners up as still wanting that.
One American paper I read suggested they could lead to deaths of agents abroad. But I suspect they were guessing too, like the posters on here. That's why trying the equivalence excuse is silly.
Allowing foreign agents access to Bill's sex secrets is not the same as breaking the cover and dooming your agents abroad.
I had something similar written (but not as good as this) for tomorrow.
Specifically how and who she chooses her running mate. The last thing she needs is a Spiro Agnew de nos jour and Paul Ryan becomes POTUS
I've no doubt the Tories will go for reconciliation and hugs, and well done them if it works. But I feel very confident they will continue to be torn I this issue as they have been my entire life, and trying to include all in both sides will result in power struggles. Even if they don't mean to - alternate leadership is already talked of with this split, and speculation will talk the non winners up as still wanting that.
The EEA route basically means more of the same. Day to day voters will notice no change. That means continued Tory civil war.