A major plank of the Eurosceptic cause for 25 years has been the line that "when we voted in 1975 we thought we were voting for a free trade agreement, not what the EU has become today". And it is the argument that we have never voted for what we have that has sustained the cause as a major issue within frontline politics. Well we now have a vote. If Remain wins then I expect the vast majority of Conservative MPs will consider the issue dead as something worth elevating above all other concerns. There will still be fights no doubt, but they will be about how we manage our interaction within the EU not about whether we should be part of it.
Mr. Eagles, Visser's back for Scotland. Italy have been playing pretty well, second half disintegration against England aside. If Scotland can get ahead, Italy could unravel. If Italy are ahead or stay close, I think they'll win.
I had something similar written (but not as good as this) for tomorrow.
Specifically how and who she chooses her running mate. The last thing she needs is a Spiro Agnew de nos jour and Paul Ryan becomes POTUS
I'll take the blame. I suggested that David might want to upgrade his excellent response (to a query I made a couple of days back) into a full thread. Sorry and all that. But it is a good thread!
I had something similar written (but not as good as this) for tomorrow.
Specifically how and who she chooses her running mate. The last thing she needs is a Spiro Agnew de nos jour and Paul Ryan becomes POTUS
Quite. But who? A Senator - like she was before becoming SoS? (Who will be the SoS?). Who is there outside congress? The Republican Party can only dream of being as thick and stupid as the Democrats.
Mr. Eagles, Visser's back for Scotland. Italy have been playing pretty well, second half disintegration against England aside. If Scotland can get ahead, Italy could unravel. If Italy are ahead or stay close, I think they'll win.
I'm just worried about the shellacking Ireland will give us.
I had something similar written (but not as good as this) for tomorrow.
Specifically how and who she chooses her running mate. The last thing she needs is a Spiro Agnew de nos jour and Paul Ryan becomes POTUS
That sounds like a good thread. I've been wondering who Clinton could have given how weak the Democratic field seems to be. The Republican one will surely be one of Christie or Haley.
So that was Thatcher's advice shortly before the party removed her? I think that says it all.
There will be every need to heal wounds unless the party wants to become an irrelevance again.
The Tories areneeds to be completely drained, with the wound laid open so it cannot re-form. It should then be left to heal by secondary intention.
In other words: the toxic material needs to be removed and disposed of. The original article is right.
The toxic together.
The obsession with Europe will not end while there are Bitter Enders still fighting a guerilla war, claiming a stab in the back etc.
If one or two obsessives want to leave and go to UKIP or the Lib Dems or wherever then that may be for the best. What would be fatal would be a witchhunt based solely on which side individuals supported.
Witch hunts rarely end well and a line must be drawn to stop endless recriminations on many divisive issues. But some figures get excluded from acts of indemnity and oblivion because to draw that line and move on the most senior figures do need to face consequences to stop things just festering further.
I've no doubt the Tories will go for reconciliation and hugs, and well done them if it works. But I feel very confident they will continue to be torn I this issue as they have been my entire life, and trying to include all in both sides will result in power struggles. Even if they don't mean to - alternate leadership is already talked of with this split, and speculation will talk the non winners up as still wanting that.
The EEA route basically means more of the same. Day to day voters will notice no change. That means continued Tory civil war.
I'm coming to the conclusion that thats because the 'Control the Borders' Tories lack the intellectual courage to spell out to voters the full ramifications of that.
No, you can't have 'the Common Market' and 'closed borders'.
I had something similar written (but not as good as this) for tomorrow.
Specifically how and who she chooses her running mate. The last thing she needs is a Spiro Agnew de nos jour and Paul Ryan becomes POTUS
I'll take the blame. I suggested that David might want to upgrade his excellent response (to a query I made a couple of days back) into a full thread. Sorry and all that. But it is a good thread!
I'll guess I'll have to publish my what Brexit means for Scottish Independence piece instead, or my Is adopting AV the only way to keep Scotland in the UK pieces.
"If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent."
That is a subjective opinion for which there is no evidence. I wouldn't call it bullshit, but it represents the Mr Hyde of Alastair Meeks rather than the Dr Jekyll of Antifrank.
"Indeed, the British are not that much better travelled when you consider travel outside Europe. Only 44% of Britons have been to North America, 30% have been to Africa, 27% to Asia, 14% to Australia and 12% to South America."
I'm surprised as many as 30% of Brits have been to Africa, although I guess that's mainly because of Morocco, Egypt, Tunisia, etc, rather than sub-Saharan Africa.
I have been to all continents and not the standard holiday spots either but normally some way out places. I have also been to the Arctic and Antartica. I wonder what % that falls into?
I also consider myself very very lucky to have the opportunity to have been able to do so.
Likewise - nearly 80 countries, on all continents. Several of those I could not now safely go back to. I feel very fortunate to have seen them whilst they were still open.
That is a sentiment very much shared by my wife and I
"By my wife and ME"!
Sorry no. My wife and I was the regular and proper way to refer up until the 80's and 90's. Very bad to say "me" and was chastised for it meany times when at School. Still struggle not to say I even now but me seems to be the new way.
No it wasn't. "My wife and me" has always been correct if it's in the accusative case, and "My wife and I" has always been correct if it's in the nominative case. Any teachers at school who told you otherwise were insane.
The simple thing to do was to remove "My wife and" and then decide whether 'me' or 'I' sounds correct. "Me went fishing" is something a 3-year old would say.
So that was Thatcher's advice shortly before the party removed her? I think that says it all.
There will be every need to heal wounds unless the party wants to become an irrelevance again.
The Tories areneeds to be completely drained, with the wound laid open so it cannot re-form. It should then be left to heal by secondary intention.
In other words: the toxic material needs to be removed and disposed of. The original article is right.
The toxic together.
The obsession with Europe will not end while there are Bitter Enders still fighting a guerilla war, claiming a stab in the back etc.
If one or two obsessives want to leave and go to UKIP or the Lib Dems or wherever then that may be for the best. What would be fatal would be a witchhunt based solely on which side individuals supported.
Witch hunts rarely end well and a line must be drawn to stop endless recriminations on many divisive issues. But some figures get excluded from acts of indemnity and oblivion because to draw that line and move on the most senior figures do need to face consequences to stop things just festering further.
I've no doubt the Tories will go for reconciliation and hugs, and well done them if it works. But I feel very confident they will continue to be torn I this issue as they have been my entire life, and trying to include all in both sides will result in power struggles. Even if they don't mean to - alternate leadership is already talked of with this split, and speculation will talk the non winners up as still wanting that.
The EEA route basically means more of the same. Day to day voters will notice no change. That means continued Tory civil war.
I'm coming to the conclusion that thats because the 'Control the Borders' Tories lack the intellectual courage to spell out to voters the full ramifications of that.
No, you can't have 'the Common Market' and 'closed borders'.
One. Or the other. Not both.
of course, that's correct. Free trade is not the same as the free movement we have now. And none of the major Tory Leavers are advocating any restrictions on free movement.
Excellent thread header. If it had its origins in any comment by me it has been thought through and brought to logical conclusions I didn't reach.
My point is that there is relatively little in this investigation that could not be resolved to anyone's satisfaction in an afternoon. Tim B made the point that the status of the e-mails sent had to be investigated and I suppose that could take into the following morning. The longer this goes on and the more gargantuan the investigation gets the more it looks and feels like interference with the democratic process. Sanders, to his credit, has already said enough. Republicans will not be so forgiving but America went through this with the Bill impeachment and it did the republicans little good.
If there is going to ever be an indictment it should be now, arguably it should have been well before now so the Democrats could have a proper choice. I fear the smear will just go on and on. It's the American way.
At some stage I hope Boris explains what freedom of movement British businesses currently enjoy in the EU he is prepared to negotiate away for a Brexit deal. If it's none, then we know nothing is going to change should there be a Leave vote.
I had something similar written (but not as good as this) for tomorrow.
Specifically how and who she chooses her running mate. The last thing she needs is a Spiro Agnew de nos jour and Paul Ryan becomes POTUS
I'll take the blame. I suggested that David might want to upgrade his excellent response (to a query I made a couple of days back) into a full thread. Sorry and all that. But it is a good thread!
I'll guess I'll have to publish my what Brexit means for Scottish Independence piece instead, or my Is adopting AV the only way to keep Scotland in the UK pieces.
"If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent."
That is a subjective opinion for which there is no evidence. I wouldn't call it bullshit, but it represents the Mr Hyde of Alastair Meeks rather than the Dr Jekyll of Antifrank.
For Remain it's an argument. For Leave it's a crusade.
Leave 58 Remain 42 on 2015 Election turnout levels?
Remain have a very hard task because there are far fewer committed pro-EU types than there are committed anti-EU types. Most voters really aren't that bothered. Turnout is not likely to be at GE levels.
Ironically, a lot of the voters Zthe Tories have helped remove from the electoral rolls would probably lean to Remain.
"If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent."
That is a subjective opinion for which there is no evidence. I wouldn't call it bullshit, but it represents the Mr Hyde of Alastair Meeks rather than the Dr Jekyll of Antifrank.
For Remain it's an argument. For Leave it's a crusade.
It's about leaving the EU, not acquiring Jerusalem....
Mr. Meeks, there's a critical difference between the crusades and Leave, though.
Once we've left, we've left. The crusades were always unstable, reinforcing a strategically difficult situation that was only initially successful due to perfect (and fortunate) timing.
Once we leave, it's over. Whereas the crusades were only over when Christians accepted defeat.
You also neglect that there are some zealots on the pro-EU side, who want Westminster relegated to being a mere regional council of the EU.
Six Nations: two matches today. I do wonder how Scotland will fare away to Italy.
Scottish fans fear their side will put up the most embarrassingly inept performance against any side from Italy since the Battle of Zama
Not so. Scotland have been playing good rugby for at least 60 minutes in each game. There are 2 problems. Firstly the bench is not strong enough and most of your front row needs replaced about that time in the modern game. Secondly, and even more seriously, they seem to have forgotten how to win a 6 nations match. They need to get a lead and play ugly but they are way too open.
I think they will win today but it is heart over head.
"Margaret Beckett, the Foreign Secretary, said: "There is no train crash, the train is firmly on the tracks. Yes, eight chapters have been frozen but 27 out of 35 are not and there is every prospect that things will work steadily and effectively to make Turkey, in the fullness of time, a member of the European Union."
....Others, such as the UK, argue that it is vital for the EU to embrace the large, mostly Muslim, nation to send a message to the Islamic world.....
This is Remain? What is Labour's vision of Remain? Does Remain's vision include Turkey, Albania, Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro?
I had something similar written (but not as good as this) for tomorrow.
Specifically how and who she chooses her running mate. The last thing she needs is a Spiro Agnew de nos jour and Paul Ryan becomes POTUS
I'll take the blame. I suggested that David might want to upgrade his excellent response (to a query I made a couple of days back) into a full thread. Sorry and all that. But it is a good thread!
I'll guess I'll have to publish my what Brexit means for Scottish Independence piece instead, or my Is adopting AV the only way to keep Scotland in the UK pieces.
You're spoiling us, Your Excellency...
You say that now, but I've have half written a thread for next week which will see a lot of PBers coming after me with Pitchforks.
"If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent."
That is a subjective opinion for which there is no evidence. I wouldn't call it bullshit, but it represents the Mr Hyde of Alastair Meeks rather than the Dr Jekyll of Antifrank.
For Remain it's an argument. For Leave it's a crusade.
It's about leaving the EU, not acquiring Jerusalem....
Your fellow Leavers speak joyfully of a shining city of sovereignty, with sturdy walls to keep out the infidels. Sounds like Jerusalem to me.
'Asked whether Mr Cameron’s “emergency brake” on migrant benefits will “work and reduce the numbers”, Mr Johnson said: “It seems unlikely frankly.”
He added: “This is about control. People feel a sense of alienation and frustration because the politicians have no control.”
"I am proud to be Mayor of the most diverse city in the world. But you have got to be fair to local communities and people who have to provide for them.
"The numbers coming in puts massive pressure on housing and other provisions such as social services and education. What we need is managed immigration.” '
Six Nations: two matches today. I do wonder how Scotland will fare away to Italy.
Scottish fans fear their side will put up the most embarrassingly inept performance against any side from Italy since the Battle of Zama
Not so. Scotland have been playing good rugby for at least 60 minutes in each game. There are 2 problems. Firstly the bench is not strong enough and most of your front row needs replaced about that time in the modern game. Secondly, and even more seriously, they seem to have forgotten how to win a 6 nations match. They need to get a lead and play ugly but they are way too open.
I think they will win today but it is heart over head.
But for an incompetent ref a few matches ago you would have been World Cup semi finalists
Leave 58 Remain 42 on 2015 Election turnout levels?
BMG last week had it only 52 to 48% Leave amongst those certain to vote who were just over 50% and Remain ahead including P robables and 50 50s. Given ORB have Leave ahead 52 to 48% anyway certain to vote just increase the margin
I had something similar written (but not as good as this) for tomorrow.
Specifically how and who she chooses her running mate. The last thing she needs is a Spiro Agnew de nos jour and Paul Ryan becomes POTUS
Quite. But who? A Senator - like she was before becoming SoS? (Who will be the SoS?). Who is there outside congress? The Republican Party can only dream of being as thick and stupid as the Democrats.
Her VP nominee will be Housing Secretary Julian Castro
Mr. Meeks, there's a critical difference between the crusades and Leave, though.
Once we've left, we've left. The crusades were always unstable, reinforcing a strategically difficult situation that was only initially successful due to perfect (and fortunate) timing.
Once we leave, it's over. Whereas the crusades were only over when Christians accepted defeat.
You also neglect that there are some zealots on the pro-EU side, who want Westminster relegated to being a mere regional council of the EU.
Once we Leave there are the terms of the Brexit deal to fall out over. EEA means the same as now on a practical basis.
Free trade is not the same as free movement. It is very different, as anyone who has tried to open an office in the US can tell you!
Six Nations: two matches today. I do wonder how Scotland will fare away to Italy.
Scottish fans fear their side will put up the most embarrassingly inept performance against any side from Italy since the Battle of Zama
Not so. Scotland have been playing good rugby for at least 60 minutes in each game. There are 2 problems. Firstly the bench is not strong enough and most of your front row needs replaced about that time in the modern game. Secondly, and even more seriously, they seem to have forgotten how to win a 6 nations match. They need to get a lead and play ugly but they are way too open.
I think they will win today but it is heart over head.
But for an incompetent ref a few matches ago you would have been World Cup semi finalists
I know. But that wasn't in the 6 nations. I think it is 10 defeats in a row now. Certainly getting close. Today is a very big day for Scottish rugby.
Excellent thread header. If it had its origins in any comment by me it has been thought through and brought to logical conclusions I didn't reach.
My point is that there is relatively little in this investigation that could not be resolved to anyone's satisfaction in an afternoon. Tim B made the point that the status of the e-mails sent had to be investigated and I suppose that could take into the following morning. The longer this goes on and the more gargantuan the investigation gets the more it looks and feels like interference with the democratic process. Sanders, to his credit, has already said enough. Republicans will not be so forgiving but America went through this with the Bill impeachment and it did the republicans little good.
If there is going to ever be an indictment it should be now, arguably it should have been well before now so the Democrats could have a proper choice. I fear the smear will just go on and on. It's the American way.
Thanks for your comment. The inspiration to flesh out a comment into a full leader was I believe yours, so cheers again for the suggestion.
I agree that it's absurd that this has gone on so long and seems likely to remain a known-unknown for quite some time longer yet!
'Asked whether Mr Cameron’s “emergency brake” on migrant benefits will “work and reduce the numbers”, Mr Johnson said: “It seems unlikely frankly.”
He added: “This is about control. People feel a sense of alienation and frustration because the politicians have no control.”
"I am proud to be Mayor of the most diverse city in the world. But you have got to be fair to local communities and people who have to provide for them.
"The numbers coming in puts massive pressure on housing and other provisions such as social services and education. What we need is managed immigration.” '
Talk is very cheap. The key is the deal he actually negotiates. He will not put at risk free movement of goods, services and capital in order to restrict free movement of people.
@DMcCaffreySKY: Farage tells me he's increasingly confident @Grassroots_Out will win official designation #euref because it is genuinely cross party.
Is he as confident as he was about winning his seat at the election? All the heavyweights are in Leave.org including UKIPs MP and, allegedly, most of their councillors.
As a junior minister, Oliver Letwin scattered official secrets all around London's parks and was promoted to Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Even if people should care, they don't.
Whereupon he handed over millions to Kids Company despite being told not to do so by his civil servants.
Something he refuses to apologise for.
Yet no action was taken against him.
It seems some government spending needs to show less restraint than we're told it should:
Of course Out is Out. The issue is what Out actually means. Will it make it harder for British businesses to access the single market, will it lead to significant reductions in immigration and so on?
@DMcCaffreySKY: Farage tells me he's increasingly confident @Grassroots_Out will win official designation #euref because it is genuinely cross party.
Is he as confident as he was about winning his seat at the election? All the heavyweights are in Leave.org including UKIPs MP and, allegedly, most of their councillors.
The question is will he promise to quit as leader if Grassroots Out don't get it ?
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do wont it look politically motivated
It wouldn't be a lazy mistake, because they had to set up their own systems then train people who presumably get information security policy training telling to use their official addresses to use the parallel system instead.
They may also have wanted to conceal information from potential future congressional investigations, since the Clintons have had negative experiences with congressional investigations in the past.
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do wont it look politically motivated
It wouldn't be a lazy mistake, because they had to set up their own systems then train people who presumably get information security policy training telling to use their official addresses to use the parallel system instead.
They may also have wanted to conceal information from potential future congressional investigations, since the Clintons have had negative experiences with congressional investigations in the past.
I suspect she wanted to ensure there was a coordinated and consistent approach to something that Congress was going to look into very carefully. She wanted to be able to talk freely and discuss the options off the official record. Which might have been fine if she was not sending official secrets by the same route. That was extremely stupid and a clear security risk. Whether it warrants criminal prosecution is a different question.
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do wont it look politically motivated
It wouldn't be a lazy mistake, because they had to set up their own systems then train people who presumably get information security policy training telling to use their official addresses to use the parallel system instead.
They may also have wanted to conceal information from potential future congressional investigations, since the Clintons have had negative experiences with congressional investigations in the past.
I suspect she wanted to ensure there was a coordinated and consistent approach to something that Congress was going to look into very carefully. She wanted to be able to talk freely and discuss the options off the official record. Which might have been fine if she was not sending official secrets by the same route. That was extremely stupid and a clear security risk. Whether it warrants criminal prosecution is a different question.
I doubt she is alone. Michael Gove did something similar over here, didn't he?
Of course Out is Out. The issue is what Out actually means. Will it make it harder for British businesses to access the single market, will it lead to significant reductions in immigration and so on?
"Of course Out is Out."
Really? I saw dozens of posts on here claiming that Boris only wanted to LEAVE so he could hold a second referendum
As for repeatedly asking me what Boris thinks of things I know nothing about Im afraid I cant help you.. I get the feeling you don't like him!
@DMcCaffreySKY: Farage tells me he's increasingly confident @Grassroots_Out will win official designation #euref because it is genuinely cross party.
Is he as confident as he was about winning his seat at the election? All the heavyweights are in Leave.org including UKIPs MP and, allegedly, most of their councillors.
The question is will he promise to quit as leader if Grassroots Out don't get it ?
Are we talking about a long resignation or a short one?
The 'long one' lasts until about Monday, it seems. A short one is about the length of that of a European Commissioner under Santer
So that was Thatcher's advice shortly before the party removed her? I think that says it all.
There will be every need to heal wounds unless the party wants to become an irrelevance again.
The Tories areneeds to be completely drained, with the wound laid open so it cannot re-form. It should then be left to heal by secondary intention.
In other words: the toxic material needs to be removed and disposed of. The original article is right.
The toxic together.
The obsession with Europe will not end while there are Bitter Enders still fighting a guerilla war, claiming a stab in the back etc.
If one or two obsessives want to leave and go to UKIP or the Lib Dems or wherever then that may be for the best. What would be fatal would be a witchhunt based solely on which side individuals supported.
Witch hunts rarely end well and a line must be drawn to stop endless recriminations on many divisive issues. But some figures get excluded from acts of indemnity and oblivion because to draw that line and move on the most senior figures do need to face consequences to stop things just festering further.
I've no doubt the Tories will go for reconciliation and hugs, and well done them if it works. But I feel very confident they will continue to be torn I this issue as they have been my entire life, and trying to include all in both sides will result in power struggles. Even if they don't mean to - alternate leadership is already talked of with this split, and speculation will talk the non winners up as still wanting that.
The EEA route basically means more of the same. Day to day voters will notice no change. That means continued Tory civil war.
I'm coming to the conclusion that thats because the 'Control the Borders' Tories lack the intellectual courage to spell out to voters the full ramifications of that.
No, you can't have 'the Common Market' and 'closed borders'.
One. Or the other. Not both.
As I have said many times, you can get 99% access to single market with no free movement. Canada has it, so we can too.
Polls show quite clearly that even if we remain, three quarters of the public want more powers back from the EU. Party needs to decide whether, in event of Remain vote, they want to be more pro-EU than general public and accept status quo and further integration by EU laws.
Personally think best approach would be to push for further repatriation when Eurozone integrates, but do it properly this time.
Does anyone know why Hilary chose to use private emails? From what I've read it was just a lazy mistake with no intention of being deceitful. If this is in fact the case I can't imagine the public being bothered by some procedural error and if the authorities do wont it look politically motivated
You just don't do "lazy mistakes" with the most highly classified and secret information and protocols where people's lives are placed at risk and if you wish to be POTUS. Any normal person breaching these protocols would by now be out of the building and most likely in handcuffs.
Anyway, Somehow I just cannot imagine you being as "sympathetic" and "understanding" of a right wing candidate.
I just some things are worthy of bringing down a political career and some aren't. And this surely isn't
Maybe?
It remains an act that had a lesser mortal committed it would receive an instant dismissal. Even in the commercial world had this been done with strategic company information this would have been likely. It was also stated on previous revelations that various people were named in the Emails putting them at very serious risk. (reports indicate)
Mind you, not to worry about all that minor petty stuff , can't put Hilary's career at risk now can we, eh?
As a junior minister, Oliver Letwin scattered official secrets all around London's parks and was promoted to Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Even if people should care, they don't.
He dumped them in a single bin. Just as bad but he should have been dealt with in the same way. Really appalling behaviour but lives I understand we're not at risk.
Still no excuse whatsoever but the left had a field day then where now they seem to be very forgiving all of a sudden. Simple error etc ein c
However when he stands for POTUS I would raise the same issues.
Polls show quite clearly that even if we remain, three quarters of the public want more powers back from the EU. Party needs to decide whether, in event of Remain vote, they want to be more pro-EU than general public and accept status quo and further integration by EU laws.
Personally think best approach would be to push for further repatriation when Eurozone integrates, but do it properly this time.
And earlier on I got criticised for suggesting that Leavers wouldn't respect the referendum result if they lost...
"If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent."
That is a subjective opinion for which there is no evidence. I wouldn't call it bullshit, but it represents the Mr Hyde of Alastair Meeks rather than the Dr Jekyll of Antifrank.
For Remain it's an argument. For Leave it's a crusade.
In last couple of weeks I've found must of the emotionally charged insults and snide comments have come from Remain side.
"If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent."
That is a subjective opinion for which there is no evidence. I wouldn't call it bullshit, but it represents the Mr Hyde of Alastair Meeks rather than the Dr Jekyll of Antifrank.
For Remain it's an argument. For Leave it's a crusade.
In last couple of weeks I've found must of the emotionally charged insults and snide comments have come from Remain side.
They just like to talk about themselves and feel important
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
I'm calling specious bullshit on that.
Leavers are better at abuse than rational argument. You make Alistair's point for him.
At least Leavers make points about the argument supported by facts.i have never seen you do anything other than make snide comments on the debate.
You suck the intelligence out of any debate by your mere presence.
Like Scottish independence, or Northern Ireland voting to join the Republic, Out is Out. In doesn't settle the issue unless it's a big vote in. Those seeking to maintain the status quo have to keep winning. Those seeking to change it only have to win once. It's got nothing to do with the good faith of either side.
Polls show quite clearly that even if we remain, three quarters of the public want more powers back from the EU. Party needs to decide whether, in event of Remain vote, they want to be more pro-EU than general public and accept status quo and further integration by EU laws.
Personally think best approach would be to push for further repatriation when Eurozone integrates, but do it properly this time.
And earlier on I got criticised for suggesting that Leavers wouldn't respect the referendum result if they lost...
Not respecting the referendum result would mean immediately leaving regardless. I am only saying more powers should be repatriated inside EU. Its like the SNP shouldn't have to stop arguing for more powers to Holyrood if they lost.
Of course Out is Out. The issue is what Out actually means. Will it make it harder for British businesses to access the single market, will it lead to significant reductions in immigration and so on?
"Of course Out is Out."
Really? I saw dozens of posts on here claiming that Boris only wanted to LEAVE so he could hold a second referendum
As for repeatedly asking me what Boris thinks of things I know nothing about Im afraid I cant help you.. I get the feeling you don't like him!
I dislike his opportunism and intellectual dishonesty, and I think he will be a very poor PM/cabinet minister, but I know that you are going to end up disliking him a lot more than I will. He is never going to disappoint me or leave me feeling betrayed.
Of course Out is Out. The issue is what Out actually means. Will it make it harder for British businesses to access the single market, will it lead to significant reductions in immigration and so on?
"Of course Out is Out."
Really? I saw dozens of posts on here claiming that Boris only wanted to LEAVE so he could hold a second referendum
As for repeatedly asking me what Boris thinks of things I know nothing about Im afraid I cant help you.. I get the feeling you don't like him!
I dislike his opportunism and intellectual dishonesty, and I think he will be a very poor PM/cabinet minister, but I know that you are going to end up disliking him a lot more than I will. He is never going to disappoint me or leave me feeling betrayed.
I can take or leave him to be honest, but he seems to be an asset for LEAVE
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
I'm calling specious bullshit on that.
Leavers are better at abuse than rational argument. You make Alistair's point for him.
At least Leavers make points about the argument supported by facts.i have never seen you do anything other than make snide comments on the debate.
You suck the intelligence out of any debate by your mere presence.
Like Scottish independence, or Northern Ireland voting to join the Republic, Out is Out. In doesn't settle the issue unless it's a big vote in. Those seeking to maintain the status quo have to keep winning. Those seeking to change it only have to win once. It's got nothing to do with the good faith of either side.
We had a big vote In in 1975. By 1983 Labour were campaigning to leave the EEC.
I expect Leave to show as much good faith as then even if they lose badly. They are convinced they know best.
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
I'm calling specious bullshit on that.
Leavers are better at abuse than rational argument. You make Alistair's point for him.
At least Leavers make points about the argument supported by facts.i have never seen you do anything other than make snide comments on the debate.
You suck the intelligence out of any debate by your mere presence.
Like Scottish independence, or Northern Ireland voting to join the Republic, Out is Out. In doesn't settle the issue unless it's a big vote in. Those seeking to maintain the status quo have to keep winning. Those seeking to change it only have to win once. It's got nothing to do with the good faith of either side.
I expect Leave to show as much good faith as then even if they lose badly. They are convinced they know best.
The last sentence applies to all political arguments.
Of course Out is Out. The issue is what Out actually means. Will it make it harder for British businesses to access the single market, will it lead to significant reductions in immigration and so on?
"Of course Out is Out."
Really? I saw dozens of posts on here claiming that Boris only wanted to LEAVE so he could hold a second referendum
As for repeatedly asking me what Boris thinks of things I know nothing about Im afraid I cant help you.. I get the feeling you don't like him!
I dislike his opportunism and intellectual dishonesty, and I think he will be a very poor PM/cabinet minister, but I know that you are going to end up disliking him a lot more than I will. He is never going to disappoint me or leave me feeling betrayed.
I can take or leave him to be honest, but he seems to be an asset for LEAVE
Of that there is no doubt. But we'll see how Leave voters think of him after he's negotiated the Brexit deal. Remember you heard it here first - he will not put free movement of goods, services and capital in peril to restrict free movement of peoples.
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
I'm calling specious bullshit on that.
Leavers are better at abuse than rational argument. You make Alistair's point for him.
At least Leavers make points about the argument supported by facts.i have never seen you do anything other than make snide comments on the debate.
You suck the intelligence out of any debate by your mere presence.
Like Scottish independence, or Northern Ireland voting to join the Republic, Out is Out. In doesn't settle the issue unless it's a big vote in. Those seeking to maintain the status quo have to keep winning. Those seeking to change it only have to win once. It's got nothing to do with the good faith of either side.
We had a big vote In in 1975. By 1983 Labour were campaigning to leave the EEC.
I expect Leave to show as much good faith as then even if they lose badly. They are convinced they know best.
Given the young back the EU by a big margin even if Leave win in a few decades perhaps we could rejoin, though unlikely
Neither of them are able to put forward an argument that isn't like trying to read a plate of alphabetti, spaghetti. The side that can deliver their argument without resorting to paragraphs stuffed with acronyms that no one but they understand, much less care about, will win No normal person is going to worry about, ttip, ecj, or any of the rest of the minutiae that people on here seem to think is the ace of trumps for their argument.
A good communicator, is going to be worth their weight in gold, but I haven't heard from one yet.
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
I'm calling specious bullshit on that.
Leavers are better at abuse than rational argument. You make Alistair's point for him.
At least Leavers make points about the argument supported by facts.i have never seen you do anything other than make snide comments on the debate.
You suck the intelligence out of any debate by your mere presence.
Like Scottish independence, or Northern Ireland voting to join the Republic, Out is Out. In doesn't settle the issue unless it's a big vote in. Those seeking to maintain the status quo have to keep winning. Those seeking to change it only have to win once. It's got nothing to do with the good faith of either side.
We had a big vote In in 1975. By 1983 Labour were campaigning to leave the EEC.
I expect Leave to show as much good faith as then even if they lose badly. They are convinced they know best.
Provided people act according to the norms of democracy, they're fully entitled to keep campaigning for their cause. Just as Scottish or Irish nationalists are entitled to.
Exactly, and the referendum is the end of that obsession, either way.
There must be winners, and losers, either way. No consolation prizes. winner takes all.
Leaving the EU is more important than party loyalty for many Leavers. There will be no respect shown for the referendum result, no matter what the margin, by such people, who will fervently believe that the public were wickedly duped.
The double standard here is astonishing. Osborne was threatening MPs with their careers ending if they didn't back Leave. After an initial agreement that Cameron wouldn't continue to pump the deal while ministers were still gagged, he then did another tour of TV studios. Cameron effectively charged leading Leave Tory as doing it for careerist reasons on floor of Commons. No 10 has banned justice department civil servants from talking to justice minister on EU matters because he backs leave. And then had his aides brief that he might lose his job if he is too high profile.
Meanwhile Leave Tories have been very restrained and praised the weak deal for being the best it couod have been. Theres one side that is putting EU issue ahead of party unity, and its not Leave.
Of course Out is Out. The issue is what Out actually means. Will it make it harder for British businesses to access the single market, will it lead to significant reductions in immigration and so on?
"Of course Out is Out."
Really? I saw dozens of posts on here claiming that Boris only wanted to LEAVE so he could hold a second referendum
As for repeatedly asking me what Boris thinks of things I know nothing about Im afraid I cant help you.. I get the feeling you don't like him!
I dislike his opportunism and intellectual dishonesty, and I think he will be a very poor PM/cabinet minister, but I know that you are going to end up disliking him a lot more than I will. He is never going to disappoint me or leave me feeling betrayed.
I can take or leave him to be honest, but he seems to be an asset for LEAVE
Of that there is no doubt. But we'll see how Leave voters think of him after he's negotiated the Brexit deal. Remember you heard it here first - he will not put free movement of goods, services and capital in peril to restrict free movement of peoples.
As long as it is the policy of our govt, and that govt can be voted out and the policy changed, we are in a better position than we are now where we are bound by a higher parliament
I had something similar written (but not as good as this) for tomorrow.
Specifically how and who she chooses her running mate. The last thing she needs is a Spiro Agnew de nos jour and Paul Ryan becomes POTUS
I'll take the blame. I suggested that David might want to upgrade his excellent response (to a query I made a couple of days back) into a full thread. Sorry and all that. But it is a good thread!
I got it wrong earlier , I said I thought it was DavidL. I was close though, I knew it was a dyed in the wool Tory who had said it.
Well if remain win then we can rename ourselves the 27th district, sing Ode to Joy with great gusto and pay homage to the Capitol Brussels by sending selected children to participate in a compulsory annual televised death match.
'Asked whether Mr Cameron’s “emergency brake” on migrant benefits will “work and reduce the numbers”, Mr Johnson said: “It seems unlikely frankly.”
He added: “This is about control. People feel a sense of alienation and frustration because the politicians have no control.”
"I am proud to be Mayor of the most diverse city in the world. But you have got to be fair to local communities and people who have to provide for them.
"The numbers coming in puts massive pressure on housing and other provisions such as social services and education. What we need is managed immigration.” '
Talk is very cheap. The key is the deal he actually negotiates. He will not put at risk free movement of goods, services and capital in order to restrict free movement of people.
Equally, it is unlikely that the EU will put the free movement of goods, services and capital at risk in order to impose the free movement of people on an economy as valuable as the UK.
Merkel talks about the privileged partnership of Turkey with the EU. A type of free trade associate membership, but no people, thank you very much. It is very clear that an arms-length association is something the EU has an open mind to.
We start from a position of 35 agreed chapters and a two year no-change, negotiating period, so the foundations of any future deal and arrangement are already in place.
The Eurozone is increasingly the EU. The rest are already outside and would probably be better served by breaking away en masse to improve the equilibrium of the relationship between the EZ and the Outer Zone.
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
I'm calling specious bullshit on that.
Leavers are better at abuse than rational argument. You make Alistair's point for him.
At least Leavers make points about the argument supported by facts.i have never seen you do anything other than make snide comments on the debate.
You suck the intelligence out of any debate by your mere presence.
Like Scottish independence, or Northern Ireland voting to join the Republic, Out is Out. In doesn't settle the issue unless it's a big vote in. Those seeking to maintain the status quo have to keep winning. Those seeking to change it only have to win once. It's got nothing to do with the good faith of either side.
We had a big vote In in 1975. By 1983 Labour were campaigning to leave the EEC.
I expect Leave to show as much good faith as then even if they lose badly. They are convinced they know best.
Gay rights activists continued to fight for gay marriage after losing referenda. Should they have stopped and accepted public knew best??
No wonder the Beeb felt the need to throw a dead Tony the Tiger onto the table....
If the story in the Sun is an accuate precis of the report then it's extremely thin. Nearly everyone by 1995 had heard rumours. I'd heard from the creative director of a major ad agency who were planning to use him in an ad for a large supermarket but was advised not to by someone who knew. I normally wouldn't be reticent to give more specific details but if all they've got are various celebs possibly having heard rumours then my information is more concrete than theirs
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
I'm calling specious bullshit on that.
Leavers are better at abuse than rational argument. You make Alistair's point for him.
What I object to to is the underlying smugness that Remainers are claiming to be better democrats than Leavers.
Not just better democrats; better people.
Sean Fear is more honest. At least he admits that a referendum defeat would be just a staging post rather than settling the argument and that he sees it as asymmetric.
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
I'm calling specious bullshit on that.
Leavers are better at abuse than rational argument. You make Alistair's point for him.
At least Leavers make points about the argument supported by facts.i have never seen you do anything other than make snide comments on the debate.
You suck the intelligence out of any debate by your mere presence.
Like Scottish independence, or Northern Ireland voting to join the Republic, Out is Out. In doesn't settle the issue unless it's a big vote in. Those seeking to maintain the status quo have to keep winning. Those seeking to change it only have to win once. It's got nothing to do with the good faith of either side.
We had a big vote In in 1975. By 1983 Labour were campaigning to leave the EEC.
I expect Leave to show as much good faith as then even if they lose badly. They are convinced they know best.
As they are entitled to do. And the public can and will take a view of their campaign.
Of course Out is Out. The issue is what Out actually means. Will it make it harder for British businesses to access the single market, will it lead to significant reductions in immigration and so on?
"Of course Out is Out."
Really? I saw dozens of posts on here claiming that Boris only wanted to LEAVE so he could hold a second referendum
As for repeatedly asking me what Boris thinks of things I know nothing about Im afraid I cant help you.. I get the feeling you don't like him!
I dislike his opportunism and intellectual dishonesty, and I think he will be a very poor PM/cabinet minister, but I know that you are going to end up disliking him a lot more than I will. He is never going to disappoint me or leave me feeling betrayed.
I can take or leave him to be honest, but he seems to be an asset for LEAVE
Of that there is no doubt. But we'll see how Leave voters think of him after he's negotiated the Brexit deal. Remember you heard it here first - he will not put free movement of goods, services and capital in peril to restrict free movement of peoples.
As long as it is the policy of our govt, and that govt can be voted out and the policy changed, we are in a better position than we are now where we are bound by a higher parliament
The policy of our government now is to Remain. But from your response it is clear you are going to be severely disappointed by the results of a Leave win. By the time of the next general election we will have a new, binding agreement with the EU, negotiated by the Tory government, which will enshrine free movement of goods, services, capital and people.
Six Nations: two matches today. I do wonder how Scotland will fare away to Italy.
Scottish fans fear their side will put up the most embarrassingly inept performance against any side from Italy since the Battle of Zama
Not so. Scotland have been playing good rugby for at least 60 minutes in each game. There are 2 problems. Firstly the bench is not strong enough and most of your front row needs replaced about that time in the modern game. Secondly, and even more seriously, they seem to have forgotten how to win a 6 nations match. They need to get a lead and play ugly but they are way too open.
I think they will win today but it is heart over head.
But for an incompetent ref a few matches ago you would have been World Cup semi finalists
I know. But that wasn't in the 6 nations. I think it is 10 defeats in a row now. Certainly getting close. Today is a very big day for Scottish rugby.
David, it is 10 Six nations games in a row if they lose today, but never fear they will win handsomely.
Of course Out is Out. The issue is what Out actually means. Will it make it harder for British businesses to access the single market, will it lead to significant reductions in immigration and so on?
"Of course Out is Out."
Really? I saw dozens of posts on here claiming that Boris only wanted to LEAVE so he could hold a second referendum
As for repeatedly asking me what Boris thinks of things I know nothing about Im afraid I cant help you.. I get the feeling you don't like him!
I dislike his opportunism and intellectual dishonesty, and I think he will be a very poor PM/cabinet minister, but I know that you are going to end up disliking him a lot more than I will. He is never going to disappoint me or leave me feeling betrayed.
I can take or leave him to be honest, but he seems to be an asset for LEAVE
Of that there is no doubt. But we'll see how Leave voters think of him after he's negotiated the Brexit deal. Remember you heard it here first - he will not put free movement of goods, services and capital in peril to restrict free movement of peoples.
As long as it is the policy of our govt, and that govt can be voted out and the policy changed, we are in a better position than we are now where we are bound by a higher parliament
The policy of our government now is to Remain. But from your response it is clear you are going to be severely disappointed by the results of a Leave win. By the time of the next general election we will have a new, binding agreement with the EU, negotiated by the Tory government, which will enshrine free movement of goods, services, capital and people.
Would that be harder or easier to leave than the EU?
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
I'm calling specious bullshit on that.
Leavers are better at abuse than rational argument. You make Alistair's point for him.
What I object to to is the underlying smugness that Remainers are claiming to be better democrats than Leavers. Because they will accept the democratic will of the people. That is bullshit. Leave wins by 51% to 49%. The EU panic and offer better terms to keep us in. Who is going to be saying "Hang on, let's not be hasty. Let's hear what they have to say...." The Leavers? Sure...yeah...whatever.... They won't be the ones not accepting the outcome.
I'll call out bullshit where I see it. And I'm seeing it in Mr Meeks' post.
I am still persuadable on the EU but one thing that inclines me to REMAIN is the obsessive nature of many (not all) LEAVERS - look at any comment section and they are full of people hurling abuse at anyone who raises an objection to BREXIT. It's a mob mentality similar to the pro-independence camp in the Scottish Ref.
Mr Meeks is also 100% correct that core LEAVERS will not accept a REMAIN vote, For at least the 25 years there has been a very vocal minority largely on the right of British politics that simply cannot consider the issue rationally and just rant. In the end I think that is why the majority will, like me, end up as fairly reluctant REMAINERS.
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
I'm calling specious bullshit on that.
Leavers are better at abuse than rational argument. You make Alistair's point for him.
At least Leavers make points about the argument supported by facts.i have never seen you do anything other than make snide comments on the debate.
You suck the intelligence out of any debate by your mere presence.
Like Scottish independence, or Northern Ireland voting to join the Republic, Out is Out. In doesn't settle the issue unless it's a big vote in. Those seeking to maintain the status quo have to keep winning. Those seeking to change it only have to win once. It's got nothing to do with the good faith of either side.
We had a big vote In in 1975. By 1983 Labour were campaigning to leave the EEC.
I expect Leave to show as much good faith as then even if they lose badly. They are convinced they know best.
Given the young back the EU by a big margin even if Leave win in a few decades perhaps we could rejoin, though unlikely
I think its very unlikely, because socialism is in the Eurozone's DNA. It is doomed to a cycle of slow growth, increasing debt and rising taxes
No wonder the Beeb felt the need to throw a dead Tony the Tiger onto the table....
If the story in the Sun is an accuate precis of the report then it's extremely thin. Nearly everyone by 1995 had heard rumours. I'd heard from the creative director of a major ad agency who were planning to use him in an ad for a large supermarket but was advised not to by someone who knew. I normally wouldn't be reticent to give more specific details but if all they've got are various celebs possibly having heard rumours then my information is more concrete than theirs
'Asked whether Mr Cameron’s “emergency brake” on migrant benefits will “work and reduce the numbers”, Mr Johnson said: “It seems unlikely frankly.”
He added: “This is about control. People feel a sense of alienation and frustration because the politicians have no control.”
"I am proud to be Mayor of the most diverse city in the world. But you have got to be fair to local communities and people who have to provide for them.
"The numbers coming in puts massive pressure on housing and other provisions such as social services and education. What we need is managed immigration.” '
Talk is very cheap. The key is the deal he actually negotiates. He will not put at risk free movement of goods, services and capital in order to restrict free movement of people.
Equally, it is unlikely that the EU will put the free movement of goods, services and capital at risk in order to impose the free movement of people on an economy as valuable as the UK.
Merkel talks about the privileged partnership of Turkey with the EU. A type of free trade associate membership, but no people, thank you very much. It is very clear that an arms-length association is something the EU has an open mind to.
We start from a position of 35 agreed chapters and a two year no-change, negotiating period, so the foundations of any future deal and arrangement are already in place.
The Eurozone is increasingly the EU. The rest are already outside and would probably be better served by breaking away en masse to improve the equilibrium of the relationship between the EZ and the Outer Zone.
We are a net exporter of capital and services. We import goods and people. The people we import are largely productive, the ones we export are not. On balance, our hand is not as strong as we are led by some to believe.
US Navy --- Admiral Michelle J. Howard, the first female four-star admiral in the U.S. Navy. She is also the armed forces' first African-American to achieve four-stars.
If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent.
I'm calling specious bullshit on that.
Leavers are better at abuse than rational argument. You make Alistair's point for him.
What I object to to is the underlying smugness that Remainers are claiming to be better democrats than Leavers.
Not just better democrats; better people.
Sean Fear is more honest. At least he admits that a referendum defeat would be just a staging post rather than settling the argument and that he sees it as asymmetric.
It can't be anything other than asymmetric. If, say, we had another Border Poll in Northern Ireland, it would probably result in about a 60/40 vote to stay in the UK. But, I'd be very surprised if the SDLP and Sinn Fein stopped campaigning for Irish Unification. Likewise, the SNP will campaign still to leave the UK, despite the vote in 2014.
But, if Irish or Scottish nationalists won, that would be that. What's now the status quo would become a lost cause.
Comments
The Republican Party can only dream of being as thick and stupid as the Democrats.
But if it's got to be the celebrated AV thread...
I'm coming to the conclusion that thats because the 'Control the Borders' Tories lack the intellectual courage to spell out to voters the full ramifications of that.
No, you can't have 'the Common Market' and 'closed borders'.
One. Or the other. Not both.
"If there is a Leave vote, most Remainians will accept it. If there is a Remain vote, most Leavers will not accept it. That much is already apparent."
That is a subjective opinion for which there is no evidence. I wouldn't call it bullshit, but it represents the Mr Hyde of Alastair Meeks rather than the Dr Jekyll of Antifrank.
No, you can't have 'the Common Market' and 'closed borders'.
One. Or the other. Not both.
of course, that's correct. Free trade is not the same as the free movement we have now. And none of the major Tory Leavers are advocating any restrictions on free movement.
10/10: 69% (more than the GE2015 and EU1975 turnout)
9/10+: 76%
8/10+: 82%
7/10+: 85% (Sindy Turnout)
London joint lowest on 10/10 to vote.
Have I read page 6 correctly?
opinion.co.uk/perch/resources/datatablesfeb2016.pdf
Leave 58 Remain 42 on 2015 Election turnout levels?
My point is that there is relatively little in this investigation that could not be resolved to anyone's satisfaction in an afternoon. Tim B made the point that the status of the e-mails sent had to be investigated and I suppose that could take into the following morning. The longer this goes on and the more gargantuan the investigation gets the more it looks and feels like interference with the democratic process. Sanders, to his credit, has already said enough. Republicans will not be so forgiving but America went through this with the Bill impeachment and it did the republicans little good.
If there is going to ever be an indictment it should be now, arguably it should have been well before now so the Democrats could have a proper choice. I fear the smear will just go on and on. It's the American way.
Ironically, a lot of the voters Zthe Tories have helped remove from the electoral rolls would probably lean to Remain.
Once we've left, we've left. The crusades were always unstable, reinforcing a strategically difficult situation that was only initially successful due to perfect (and fortunate) timing.
Once we leave, it's over. Whereas the crusades were only over when Christians accepted defeat.
You also neglect that there are some zealots on the pro-EU side, who want Westminster relegated to being a mere regional council of the EU.
Not so. Scotland have been playing good rugby for at least 60 minutes in each game. There are 2 problems. Firstly the bench is not strong enough and most of your front row needs replaced about that time in the modern game. Secondly, and even more seriously, they seem to have forgotten how to win a 6 nations match. They need to get a lead and play ugly but they are way too open.
I think they will win today but it is heart over head.
"Margaret Beckett, the Foreign Secretary, said: "There is no train crash, the train is firmly on the tracks. Yes, eight chapters have been frozen but 27 out of 35 are not and there is every prospect that things will work steadily and effectively to make Turkey, in the fullness of time, a member of the European Union."
....Others, such as the UK, argue that it is vital for the EU to embrace the large, mostly Muslim, nation to send a message to the Islamic world.....
This is Remain? What is Labour's vision of Remain? Does Remain's vision include Turkey, Albania, Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro?
'Asked whether Mr Cameron’s “emergency brake” on migrant benefits will “work and reduce the numbers”, Mr Johnson said: “It seems unlikely frankly.”
He added: “This is about control. People feel a sense of alienation and frustration because the politicians have no control.”
"I am proud to be Mayor of the most diverse city in the world. But you have got to be fair to local communities and people who have to provide for them.
"The numbers coming in puts massive pressure on housing and other provisions such as social services and education. What we need is managed immigration.” '
http://tgr.ph/x522C9
You suck the intelligence out of any debate by your mere presence.
It'll be interesting what the EU does now, if anything. Germany's business lobby is already getting very restive.
The British electorate is a far better poker player than its Prime Minister.
https://twitter.com/PopulusPolls/status/703250971342848000
Free trade is not the same as free movement. It is very different, as anyone who has tried to open an office in the US can tell you!
https://twitter.com/PopulusPolls/status/703252653577510913/photo/1
I agree that it's absurd that this has gone on so long and seems likely to remain a known-unknown for quite some time longer yet!
@DMcCaffreySKY: Farage tells me he's increasingly confident @Grassroots_Out will win official designation #euref because it is genuinely cross party.
Who doubted it via the medium of every journalist w a pulse?
@boringsycophanticcameroon: Daves still my fav
https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/703505060597272576
Something he refuses to apologise for.
Yet no action was taken against him.
It seems some government spending needs to show less restraint than we're told it should:
The obvious reason is to avoid Freedom of Information Act requests. See this piece from Gawker:
http://gawker.com/this-is-hillary-clinton-s-secret-email-hdr22-clintonem-1689178736
They may also have wanted to conceal information from potential future congressional investigations, since the Clintons have had negative experiences with congressional investigations in the past.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6958054/Jimmy-Savile-dressed-as-Womble-to-rape-boy-of-10-in-dressing-room.html
Really? I saw dozens of posts on here claiming that Boris only wanted to LEAVE so he could hold a second referendum
As for repeatedly asking me what Boris thinks of things I know nothing about Im afraid I cant help you.. I get the feeling you don't like him!
The 'long one' lasts until about Monday, it seems. A short one is about the length of that of a European Commissioner under Santer
No, you can't have 'the Common Market' and 'closed borders'.
One. Or the other. Not both.
As I have said many times, you can get 99% access to single market with no free movement. Canada has it, so we can too.
Personally think best approach would be to push for further repatriation when Eurozone integrates, but do it properly this time.
Still no excuse whatsoever but the left had a field day then where now they seem to be very forgiving all of a sudden. Simple error etc ein c
However when he stands for POTUS I would raise the same issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kotNxb2YApk
I expect Leave to show as much good faith as then even if they lose badly. They are convinced they know best.
Neither of them are able to put forward an argument that isn't like trying to read a plate of alphabetti, spaghetti. The side that can deliver their argument without resorting to paragraphs stuffed with acronyms that no one but they understand, much less care about, will win
No normal person is going to worry about, ttip, ecj, or any of the rest of the minutiae that people on here seem to think is the ace of trumps for their argument.
A good communicator, is going to be worth their weight in gold, but I haven't heard from one yet.
Meanwhile Leave Tories have been very restrained and praised the weak deal for being the best it couod have been. Theres one side that is putting EU issue ahead of party unity, and its not Leave.
Merkel talks about the privileged partnership of Turkey with the EU. A type of free trade associate membership, but no people, thank you very much. It is very clear that an arms-length association is something the EU has an open mind to.
We start from a position of 35 agreed chapters and a two year no-change, negotiating period, so the foundations of any future deal and arrangement are already in place.
The Eurozone is increasingly the EU. The rest are already outside and would probably be better served by breaking away en masse to improve the equilibrium of the relationship between the EZ and the Outer Zone.
David, it is 10 Six nations games in a row if they lose today, but never fear they will win handsomely.
Avast! The Admiral of car insurance has regenerated as a woman
http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/feb/27/the-new-admiral-advert?CMP=twt_gu
Mr Meeks is also 100% correct that core LEAVERS will not accept a REMAIN vote, For at least the 25 years there has been a very vocal minority largely on the right of British politics that simply cannot consider the issue rationally and just rant. In the end I think that is why the majority will, like me, end up as fairly reluctant REMAINERS.
US Navy --- Admiral Michelle J. Howard, the first female four-star admiral in the U.S. Navy. She is also the armed forces' first African-American to achieve four-stars.
But, if Irish or Scottish nationalists won, that would be that. What's now the status quo would become a lost cause.