This is huge if true. So huge it goes beyond comprehension.
I comprehend this very well. The trouble is that people are so brain-washed by our MSM and liberal elite that they don't believe what is happening before their very eyes. Very worrying.
Now reporting on French TV that the death toll for the Bataclan may be revised down to 70. The 100 figure is for all attacks combined. That is my rough translation so may need checking
Sky News saying that Paris City Hall has confirmed the 140 figure.
It appears it's turned into a massacre. This will fundamentally change Europe now. The chilling thing is that it will one day happen here.
I'm still hopeful it won't happen here. After 7/7 people said it would happen again before long but we've had more than a decade without any serious attacks.
It's much harder to infiltrate through UK borders, and our security services do exceptional work. And, of course, their best successes are almost always unknown.
Nevertheless, their resources are not limitless and neither are they infallible.
Richard - this is nothing less than a clash of "civilizations" - to compare the current situation to the IRA is frankly laughable.
The IRA were more sophisticated. They almost managed to bump off the UK government. They also lobbed mortars at No 10.
Look, I've been one of those arguing for us not to under-estimate the threat of terrorist attacks, arguing against people who have complacently said that the risk is not a big deal. But equally, we need to keep a sense of perspective. This is not the Blitz.
What we have not faced is waves of attacks. How do we deal with that this could turn into a series of incidents?
It's a bit early but I wonder what went wrong with the concert rescue attempt. Maybe they should have gone in sooner.
I guess it takes a little time to get all your resources in place, and firm up some sort of plan. You can't just assault a place like that with no workable plan.
BBC - AFP reports French President Francois Hollande is travelling to the Bataclan concert hall. The latest reports, from French media, say around 100 people are dead there.
''The french went on a huge march post Charlie Hebdo. Didnt help them tonight.''
Perhaps that is because their leaders ignored them.
For me, these are crocodile tears from our leaders. This is the system they believe in, and were taught to believe in by those who preceded them. Tonight is its product.
It is the utter failure of their policy of the last 30 years that is shaking them. Not the dreadful deaths in Paris. Shame on them.
Moslem Camp at Calais now burning in possible revenge attack by locals. (BBC)
Good to see that the French people at least remain our friends and care about us, even if the French government, Calais municipality and our Home Office don't.
This is huge if true. So huge it goes beyond comprehension.
Hopefully it kicks us into action in Syria. Maybe with this and the airliner bomb, there can be a coordinated international approach (UK, US, EU, Russia)?
How would bombing Syria have prevented this attack?
I'm talking boots on the ground to take out ISIS entirely.
The sea is our very good friend. Border controls too. Schengen is dead.
Interesting that on France 24 the commentators are still talking about how Hollande will have trouble closing the borders because of Schengen. They seem totally divorced from the reality of what is happening.
Of course. That is how ingrained the mix of wet-lefty-liberal mentality together with the European integration dream is with the majority on the continent (and many here in Britain). Our leaders either need to get real - NOW - or we will face collapse as a civilizaton.
As Nick Cohen has said, there are plenty of them who wouldn't raise a finger to defend our values even if the terrorists were in their own back yard.
At the end of the day, it's a mental fight: what do we fear more? Being accused of racism, or preserving our way of life?
We defeated the Nazis and Communism, we'll defeat Islamic Terror too.
Amen.
I'll never forget that I was in Madrid on 7/7 and the aftermath.
The Spaniards couldn't understand how calmly Londoners carried on, almost like nothing had happened, which was in stark contrast to the Spanish reaction to the Madrid bombings a year earlier.
It was quietly explained to them this how we are, we keep calm and carry on, is why we've not known fascism or communism running our country.
We need that resolve and stoicism again.
Of all our values, it's that which makes me the most proud to British.
This is a huge attack. Multiple people, clearly a large network. How can this happen ?
It's concerning they could do this without being infiltrated by the security services or having their communications hacked.
On the basis of fhis let the intelligence services have every single thing they bloody well need.
I don't understand how objections would survive but they will, from the usual suspects.
Perhaps it would help if you realised that the French already have the snooping laws you are trying to support in the UK and it has made not a blind bit of difference. The French authorities have far more power over the population than we have in the UK and what good has that done them?
Accepting my ignorance of French laws on surveillance, I would suggest that any failure of surveillance should not lead to us dropping our guard or failing to doing our best to pick up whatever intelligence we can by whatever means lies within our grasp, subject to safeguards exercised by the judiciary.
Certainly not wanting to get into any sort of argument with you tonight of all nights. My point is just that it is not necessarily the case that more and more surveillance makes us any safer. In many cases the knowledge that every piece of electronic communication is being monitored just means the terrorists return to more traditional means of communication. In effect you drive them off the grid. It doesn't make us any safer it just makes us think we are.
To use an attack like tonight as a reason for more Government snooping is not necessarily the right reaction.
''The french went on a huge march post Charlie Hebdo. Didnt help them tonight.''
Perhaps that is because their leaders ignored them.
For me, these are crocodile tears from our leaders. This is the system they believe in, and were taught to believe in by those who preceded them. Tonight is its product.
It is the utter failure of their policy of the last 30 years that is shaking them. Not the dreadful deaths in Paris. Shame on them.
One of the problems IMO is the way the French and other mainland European countries allow newcomers into their country but then don't really accept them as full members of society. It has to be all or nothing, not a half-way house.
The sea is our very good friend. Border controls too. Schengen is dead.
Interesting that on France 24 the commentators are still talking about how Hollande will have trouble closing the borders because of Schengen. They seem totally divorced from the reality of what is happening.
Of course. That is how ingrained the mix of wet-lefty-liberal mentality together with the European integration dream is with the majority on the continent (and many here in Britain). Our leaders either need to get real - NOW - or we will face collapse as a civilizaton.
As Nick Cohen has said, there are plenty of them who wouldn't raise a finger to defend our values even if the terrorists were in their own back yard.
At the end of the day, it's a mental fight: what do we fear more? Being accused of racism, or preserving our way of life?
We defeated the Nazis and Communism, we'll defeat Islamic Terror too.
Amen.
I'll never forget that I was in Madrid on 7/7 and the aftermath.
The Spaniards couldn't understand how calmly Londoners carried on, almost like nothing had happened, which was in stark contrast to the Spanish reaction to the Madrid bombings a year earlier.
It was quietly explained to them this how we are, we keep calm and carry on, is why we've not known fascism or communism running our country.
We need that resolve and stoicism again.
Of all our values, it's that which makes me the most proud to British.
I've always liked the "I've been blown up by a better class of bastard than you" line too.
Now reporting on French TV that the death toll for the Bataclan may be revised down to 70. The 100 figure is for all attacks combined. That is my rough translation so may need checking
Let's hope so but a City official on Sky breaking news. has stated 100 with 40 others dead at other Paris locations.
Moslem Camp at Calais now burning in possible revenge attack by locals. (BBC)
Good to see that the French people at least remain our friends and care about us, even if the French government, Calais municipality and our Home Office don't.
You're actually pleased that the camp at Calais is being attacked in revenge?
What we have not faced is waves of attacks. How do we deal with that this could turn into a series of incidents?
Yes, that is a very good question.
The difficulty is that these sorts of attacks don't need a huge organisation or much sophistication - just a few guys with automatic weapons in any random crowded place is enough.
Coordinating a wave of attacks sounds harder, but it must be what the intelligence services and governments most fear.
The sea is our very good friend. Border controls too. Schengen is dead.
Interesting that on France 24 the commentators are still talking about how Hollande will have trouble closing the borders because of Schengen. They seem totally divorced from the reality of what is happening.
Of course. That is how ingrained the mix of wet-lefty-liberal mentality together with the European integration dream is with the majority on the continent (and many here in Britain). Our leaders either need to get real - NOW - or we will face collapse as a civilizaton.
As Nick Cohen has said, there are plenty of them who wouldn't raise a finger to defend our values even if the terrorists were in their own back yard.
At the end of the day, it's a mental fight: what do we fear more? Being accused of racism, or preserving our way of life?
We defeated the Nazis and Communism, we'll defeat Islamic Terror too.
That included internment camps for German and Italians. All muslims report to police stations?
How about all people who live in the UK who clearly are terrorist sympathizers (don't care what religion they are) are either imprisoned or exiled.
Anyone like to argue against that?
Oh and human rights lawyers who are clearly taking the Michael to lose their professional status.
Like Corbyn? according to Dave he's the biggest threat to british security.
He's not a sympathiser - just incredibly naive.
Labour are going to increasingly look like utter prats having him as leader in this new age, especially amongst the non-metro luvvies (ie much of the traditional Labour voter base).
The sea is our very good friend. Border controls too. Schengen is dead.
Interesting that on France 24 the commentators are still talking about how Hollande will have trouble closing the borders because of Schengen. They seem totally divorced from the reality of what is happening.
Of course. That is how ingrained the mix of wet-lefty-liberal mentality together with the European integration dream is with the majority on the continent (and many here in Britain). Our leaders either need to get real - NOW - or we will face collapse as a civilizaton.
We (the West) need to grow a backbone and deal with IS in Syria and Iraq.
Dealing with IS means backing Assad. Someone needs to tell Obama.
This is huge if true. So huge it goes beyond comprehension.
Hopefully it kicks us into action in Syria. Maybe with this and the airliner bomb, there can be a coordinated international approach (UK, US, EU, Russia)?
How would bombing Syria have prevented this attack?
I'm talking boots on the ground to take out ISIS entirely.
This simply has to be on the cards now.
Words just don't capture how awful this series of attacks is. Thoughts and prayers with all those affected.
Moslem Camp at Calais now burning in possible revenge attack by locals. (BBC)
Good to see that the French people at least remain our friends and care about us, even if the French government, Calais municipality and our Home Office don't.
You're actually pleased that the camp at Calais is being attacked in revenge?
@Bonn1eGreer: CORRECTION: "#CalaisJungle is fine. We said treat news with caution.They were old pictures. "-@BBCNews #PenséePourLesVictimes #Paris
''The french went on a huge march post Charlie Hebdo. Didnt help them tonight.''
Perhaps that is because their leaders ignored them.
For me, these are crocodile tears from our leaders. This is the system they believe in, and were taught to believe in by those who preceded them. Tonight is its product.
It is the utter failure of their policy of the last 30 years that is shaking them. Not the dreadful deaths in Paris. Shame on them.
Absolutely nothing will change as a result of the terrible events this evening. Change will only occur when the out of touch politicians are voted out.
Been out for a nice evening, to find out what as happened. Obviously we hope as few people are dead as possible (but reports of gunmen in a venue with 1000 people and reloading 3-4 times sounds like the death toll will be very high), but hopefully no PB'ers will be providing any on the spot reporting as we have had in the past.
This is huge if true. So huge it goes beyond comprehension.
Hopefully it kicks us into action in Syria. Maybe with this and the airliner bomb, there can be a coordinated international approach (UK, US, EU, Russia)?
How would bombing Syria have prevented this attack?
I'm talking boots on the ground to take out ISIS entirely.
This simply has to be on the cards now.
Words just don't capture how awful this series of attacks is. Thoughts and prayers with all those affected.
There are thousands of them in Europe and the UK already, bombing the middle East is not going to stop these attacks
Been out for a nice evening, to find out what as happened. Obviously we hope as few people are dead as possible (but reports of gunmen in a venue with 1000 people and reloading 3-4 times sounds like the death toll will be very high), but hopefully no PB'ers will be providing any on the spot reporting as we have had in the past.
This is huge if true. So huge it goes beyond comprehension.
Hopefully it kicks us into action in Syria. Maybe with this and the airliner bomb, there can be a coordinated international approach (UK, US, EU, Russia)?
How would bombing Syria have prevented this attack?
I'm talking boots on the ground to take out ISIS entirely.
You would require full deployment of much of the armed forces of the US and Russians and would result in many thousands of allied deaths, if it all went well. If it went badly???
What we have not faced is waves of attacks. How do we deal with that this could turn into a series of incidents?
Yes, that is a very good question.
The difficulty is that these sorts of attacks don't need a huge organisation or much sophistication - just a few guys with automatic weapons in any random crowded place is enough.
Coordinating a wave of attacks sounds harder, but it must be what the intelligence services and governments most fear.
The DC shooter, two men and a car brought DC into a state of terrorised paralysis. All they need to do is set up another event in a few weeks, and then another a few weeks after that. The place would be in melt down.
This is huge if true. So huge it goes beyond comprehension.
Hopefully it kicks us into action in Syria. Maybe with this and the airliner bomb, there can be a coordinated international approach (UK, US, EU, Russia)?
How would bombing Syria have prevented this attack?
I'm talking boots on the ground to take out ISIS entirely.
This simply has to be on the cards now.
Words just don't capture how awful this series of attacks is. Thoughts and prayers with all those affected.
There are thousands of them in Europe and the UK already, bombing the middle East is not going to stop these attacks
Quite right. Air attacks are not going to work. Boots on the ground would be entirely necessary as well as domestic policy changes.
''The french went on a huge march post Charlie Hebdo. Didnt help them tonight.''
Perhaps that is because their leaders ignored them.
For me, these are crocodile tears from our leaders. This is the system they believe in, and were taught to believe in by those who preceded them. Tonight is its product.
It is the utter failure of their policy of the last 30 years that is shaking them. Not the dreadful deaths in Paris. Shame on them.
Absolutely nothing will change as a result of the terrible events this evening. Change will only occur when the out of touch politicians are voted out.
And the first job for all of us is to vote OUT in the EU referendum.
This is huge if true. So huge it goes beyond comprehension.
Hopefully it kicks us into action in Syria. Maybe with this and the airliner bomb, there can be a coordinated international approach (UK, US, EU, Russia)?
How would bombing Syria have prevented this attack?
I'm talking boots on the ground to take out ISIS entirely.
That's exactly what's needed.
But will never happen: America under Obama will prevaricate until he's out-of-office, we no longer count, Russia have not the logistical means, and the EU neither the will or the means.
So it will be ramped up and broadened air strikes, more money to the Kurds and training support.
The only serious alternative is to do a deal with the devil.
Worth maybe reposting the following post downthread as it will be interesting to see if subsequent information proves out that the French authorities were on a firm early track.
'I'm woefully lacking in detail here but it looks as if the French authorities have:
a) identified a watch lister who isn't at home b) an initial thought not all the perpetrators are French
This is early days and they will be working through such a stream of data and ideas that things will come to the front and then be replaced but we'll see.'
Just to update on this, there is a definite line of inquiry that indeed some of those involved were not French in citizenship or in long term residence. Some very early reports on the news in the last hour or so suggest some arrests have been made and they were not French.
The French authorities do indeed seem to have established a major line of thinking early on.
If that line lasts another few hours, its the runner.
Can someone explain why these people keep attacking France? Why not Germany, Italy or Britain?
One possible reason is that Muslims aren't as well integrated in France as in the other countries you mention (except Italy where the Muslim population is much lower).
Moslem Camp at Calais now burning in possible revenge attack by locals. (BBC)
Good to see that the French people at least remain our friends and care about us, even if the French government, Calais municipality and our Home Office don't.
You're actually pleased that the camp at Calais is being attacked in revenge?
It is an understandable reaction (you know, by ordinary people, clearly not aloof sorts like yourself) to just one example of the utter p*ss-taking our politicians have towards us. That camp should not exist. It is utterly preposterous. It and its inhabitants lie outside the law - a situation maintained by its supporters (including the local government) who turn a blind eye to one form of law-breaking (ie illegal settlements and immigration).
The people you should be blaming are not the ordinary French folk but the idiots who think that what's going on in Europe right now can continue without any reaction by the European people or any consequences to society.
In the same vane, we cannot really blame the poor immigrants who are at the camp nor indeed the millions streaming into Europe right now. The people to blame for all this mess is our useless politicans, journalists and other elite sort who think they can just wish niceness onto the world and regard ordinary people with ordinary concerns as ignorant plebs.
This is mis-government of colossal proportions, on a continental scale, with civilization-breaking consequences.
Can someone explain why these people keep attacking France? Why not Germany, Italy or Britain?
High Muslim population with established and strong networks to North Africa and Middle East and France are bombing ISIS in Syria and Iraq.
The security expert on the radio suggested Britain are high target, but it seems the networks aren't as strong as in France, but it seems that intell has been saying for a long time that trying to get something going.
Germany less so because they aren't involved in bombing etc.
Moslem Camp at Calais now burning in possible revenge attack by locals. (BBC)
Good to see that the French people at least remain our friends and care about us, even if the French government, Calais municipality and our Home Office don't.
You're actually pleased that the camp at Calais is being attacked in revenge?
It is an understandable reaction (you know, by ordinary people, clearly not aloof sorts like yourself) to just one example of the utter p*ss-taking our politicians have towards us. That camp should not exist. It is utterly preposterous. It and its inhabitants lie outside the law - a situation maintained by its supporters (including the local government) who turn a blind eye to one form of law-breaking (ie illegal settlements and immigration).
The people you should be blaming are not the ordinary French folk but the idiots who think that what's going on in Europe right now can continue without any reaction by the European people or any consequences to society.
In the same vane, we cannot really blame the poor immigrants who are at the camp nor indeed the millions streaming into Europe right now. The people to blame for all this mess is our useless politicans, journalists and other elite sort who think they can just wish niceness onto the world and regard ordinary people with ordinary concerns as ignorant plebs.
BBC now saying that they were mistaken in reporting Calais attack. They saw old film it seems and 2 + 2= 5.
The DC shooter, two men and a car brought DC into a state of terrorised paralysis. All they need to do is set up another event in a few weeks, and then another a few weeks after that. The place would be in melt down.
I'm not an expert, but I'd think that organising that would be quite hard, without either generating intelligence traffic, or leaving enough clues from the first attack for the security services to know where to look to find the accomplices. At least I hope it's hard.
With the best will in the world can the concept of refugees and asylum seekers survive much more of this? When does the risk become unacceptable?
We are still using laws and concepts from a different age.
It's worth remembering that many many refugees and asylum seekers are escaping from nutters like these.
And how do you tell the difference?
Remember that they can come as refugees and turn into terrorists, as Jihadi John did.
Why take the risk? Governments have a duty to their own citizens above all.
Though police work and intelligence. Which sadly has not been enough tonight.
How much police work and intelligence is going on at the borders of Germany, do you suppose?
It takes time and hard work to do intelligence. When many of those have thrown away their passports or are travelling on false ones, how do you vet such people?
This has got to be a turning point, surely? Over 100 dead...
I just don't know.
Terrible things like this happen. Rigby, London, Madrid, 9/11, Charlie Hebdo.. We're extremely shocked, and very angry for a few days..
And then life seems to go on.
I don't know if we're becoming hardened to it, but I just don't know if there will be a political gearshift or not.
I'm not holding my breath for the European continent. If it does happen, it'll be based on the electorate not those in charge at the moment. I think it'd take the actual election of politicians on the right/far-right for that.
In the UK, it might mean more resources for GCHQ/MI5/MI6 in the Defence Review, with a further beefing up of special forces and RAF strike forces. Theresa May's bill will sail through, Parliament and there could be further security measures to come over the next few months.
It could affect the Syria vote, if Cameron pushes for it again, but the choices there are very simple and, unpleasant, now: Asad or ISIS.
That's a no brainer - who'd go with ISIS? Hold on someone comes to mind.
Meh. It's all very nice, but I really want more from our leaders this time than the usual well wore-clichés about solidarity, empathy and nebulous rhetoric about 'values'.
Words are all very well and good. But they need to be defiant, inspirational and rallying words, linked to a clear understanding of the root-cause of the problem, and then backed and then followed through with clear resolve to take all necessary action to defeat this cancer.
And that's no matter where we are in the political cycle, no matter how long it takes, and no matter what the cost.
Meh. It's all very nice, but I really want more from our leaders this time than the usual well wore-clichés about solidarity, empathy and nebulous rhetoric about 'values'.
Words are all very well and good. But they need to be defiant, inspirational and rallying words, linked to a clear understanding of the root-cause of the problem, and then backed and then followed through with clear resolve to take all necessary action to defeat this cancer.
And that's no matter where we are in the political cycle, no matter how long it takes, and no matter what the cost.
Meh. It's all very nice, but I really want more from our leaders this time than the usual well wore-clichés about solidarity, empathy and nebulous rhetoric about 'values'.
Words are all very well and good. But they need to be defiant, inspirational and rallying words, linked to a clear understanding of the root-cause of the problem, and then backed and then followed through with clear resolve to take all necessary action to defeat this cancer.
And that's no matter where we are in the political cycle, no matter how long it takes, and no matter what the cost.
This has got to be a turning point, surely? Over 100 dead...
I just don't know.
Terrible things like this happen. Rigby, London, Madrid, 9/11, Charlie Hebdo.. We're extremely shocked, and very angry for a few days..
And then life seems to go on.
I don't know if we're becoming hardened to it, but I just don't know if there will be a political gearshift or not.
I'm not holding my breath for the European continent. If it does happen, it'll be based on the electorate not those in charge at the moment. I think it'd take the actual election of politicians on the right/far-right for that.
In the UK, it might mean more resources for GCHQ/MI5/MI6 in the Defence Review, with a further beefing up of special forces and RAF strike forces. Theresa May's bill will sail through, Parliament and there could be further security measures to come over the next few months.
It could affect the Syria vote, if Cameron pushes for it again, but the choices there are very simple and, unpleasant, now: Asad or ISIS.
That's a no brainer - who'd go with ISIS? Hold on someone comes to mind.
The example of Saddam and Gaddafi shows we need such people.
Can someone explain why these people keep attacking France? Why not Germany, Italy or Britain?
High Muslim population with established and strong networks to North Africa and Middle East and France are bombing ISIS in Syria and Iraq.
The security expert on the radio suggested Britain are high target, but it seems the networks aren't as strong as in France, but it seems that intell has been saying for a long time that trying to get something going.
Germany less so because they aren't involved in bombing etc.
There's nothing to say that Western democracy will inevitably triumph worldwide, nor that what we have at the moment is permanent either.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm experiencing the equivalent of the Fall of Rome - of the modern age - in slow motion.
the depressing reality is nothing will change. The problem is of millions of people at the least sympathising with the events we see now, or more concerned with not overreacting, and in effect under reacting, and temporary outrage won't effect that. Is in previous forms lost support for being brutal to their own support base, and it might happen again, but like the taliban still retaining huge influence, too many people agree with them or don't hate them no matter what and tolerate them as a result. We could do nothing or everything, and while things might die down for awhile, the problem of those people who helped them rise or tolerated them will remain for another day. As it is, our populations, not just our leaders, and I include myself as the former, lack the will to do more than paper over cracks. The world has always been brutal, we've just been lucky to live in times peaceful enough to have the luxury of pretending otherwise, but brutality is normal, historically.
Can someone explain why these people keep attacking France? Why not Germany, Italy or Britain?
High Muslim population with established and strong networks to North Africa and Middle East and France are bombing ISIS in Syria and Iraq.
The security expert on the radio suggested Britain are high target, but it seems the networks aren't as strong as in France, but it seems that intell has been saying for a long time that trying to get something going.
Germany less so because they aren't involved in bombing etc.
Andrew Hussey's The French Intifada: The Long War between France and its Arabs is very good at explaining the hatred which many 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation Muslim youths have for France and how linked much of this is to France's colonial past mixed with Islamist ideology.
Meh. It's all very nice, but I really want more from our leaders this time than the usual well wore-clichés about solidarity, empathy and nebulous rhetoric about 'values'.
Words are all very well and good. But they need to be defiant, inspirational and rallying words, linked to a clear understanding of the root-cause of the problem, and then backed and then followed through with clear resolve to take all necessary action to defeat this cancer.
And that's no matter where we are in the political cycle, no matter how long it takes, and no matter what the cost.
Will never happen.
Too much pride. These people never admit they were wrong
I can almost hear people on here thinking " everyone I disagreed with was right all along, how can I save face?"
This is a huge attack. Multiple people, clearly a large network. How can this happen ?
It's concerning they could do this without being infiltrated by the security services or having their communications hacked.
On the basis of fhis let the intelligence services have every single thing they bloody well need.
I don't understand how objections would survive but they will, from the usual suspects.
Perhaps it would help if you realised that the French already have the snooping laws you are trying to support in the UK and it has made not a blind bit of difference. The French authorities have far more power over the population than we have in the UK and what good has that done them?
Accepting my ignorance of French laws on surveillance, I would suggest that any failure of surveillance should not lead to us dropping our guard or failing to doing our best to pick up whatever intelligence we can by whatever means lies within our grasp, subject to safeguards exercised by the judiciary.
Certainly not wanting to get into any sort of argument with you tonight of all nights. My point is just that it is not necessarily the case that more and more surveillance makes us any safer. In many cases the knowledge that every piece of electronic communication is being monitored just means the terrorists return to more traditional means of communication. In effect you drive them off the grid. It doesn't make us any safer it just makes us think we are.
To use an attack like tonight as a reason for more Government snooping is not necessarily the right reaction.
Leaving aside our different perspectives, I think we probably both know what the reaction to tonight's events will likely be, right or wrong.
At times like these I look at the world leaders we have (and their likely replacements) and it seems a lot bleaker. Far too many weak weak leaders. Obama, Holland, Cameron, none of men for making really tough decisions. Their likely replacements are no better.
This is huge if true. So huge it goes beyond comprehension.
Hopefully it kicks us into action in Syria. Maybe with this and the airliner bomb, there can be a coordinated international approach (UK, US, EU, Russia)?
How would bombing Syria have prevented this attack?
I'm talking boots on the ground to take out ISIS entirely.
You would require full deployment of much of the armed forces of the US and Russians and would result in many thousands of allied deaths, if it all went well. If it went badly???
And what do you do afterwards?
A heavy price, but to get rid of ISIS it may be worth it. A good question about afterwards. UN mandates don't have a particularly good track record.
This is huge if true. So huge it goes beyond comprehension.
Hopefully it kicks us into action in Syria. Maybe with this and the airliner bomb, there can be a coordinated international approach (UK, US, EU, Russia)?
How would bombing Syria have prevented this attack?
I'm talking boots on the ground to take out ISIS entirely.
You would require full deployment of much of the armed forces of the US and Russians and would result in many thousands of allied deaths, if it all went well. If it went badly???
And what do you do afterwards?
A heavy price, but to get rid of ISIS it may be worth it. A good question about afterwards. UN mandates don't have a particularly good track record.
If you are going to put large numbers of boots on the ground, you need to answer 3 questions up front -
1) why are we there? 2) what does victory look like? 3) how do we know when we've got there?
then there's the killer question -
Then what?
It's the question that was never asked in Iraq - so you remove Saddam Hussein: then what?
The French authorities were aware that the theatre might be targeted at some point.
If that is so then that really is absolutely massive and puts Hollande on the spot as well as his government. They could not possibly survive such a revelation.
This is huge if true. So huge it goes beyond comprehension.
Hopefully it kicks us into action in Syria. Maybe with this and the airliner bomb, there can be a coordinated international approach (UK, US, EU, Russia)?
How would bombing Syria have prevented this attack?
I'm talking boots on the ground to take out ISIS entirely.
You would require full deployment of much of the armed forces of the US and Russians and would result in many thousands of allied deaths, if it all went well. If it went badly???
And what do you do afterwards?
A heavy price, but to get rid of ISIS it may be worth it. A good question about afterwards. UN mandates don't have a particularly good track record.
If you are going to put large numbers of boots on the ground, you need to answer 3 questions up front -
1) why are we there? 2) what does victory look like? 3) how do we know when we've got there?
then there's the killer question -
Then what?
It's the question that was never asked in Iraq - so you remove Saddam Hussein: then what?
Well, you have "full spectrum dominance", as Dubya crowed.
The French authorities were aware that the theatre might be targeted at some point.
If that is so then that really is absolutely massive and puts Hollande on the spot as well as his government. They could not possibly survive such a revelation.
I don't know. We know in the UK that for instance a number of high profile shopping centres and football stadiums have been in the plans of Islamic terrorists over the past few years. The list of possible targets will be absolutely enormous.
I wouldn't call for Cameron to go if god forbid terrorists did manage to realize their plans.
This is huge if true. So huge it goes beyond comprehension.
Hopefully it kicks us into action in Syria. Maybe with this and the airliner bomb, there can be a coordinated international approach (UK, US, EU, Russia)?
How would bombing Syria have prevented this attack?
I'm talking boots on the ground to take out ISIS entirely.
You would require full deployment of much of the armed forces of the US and Russians and would result in many thousands of allied deaths, if it all went well. If it went badly???
And what do you do afterwards?
A heavy price, but to get rid of ISIS it may be worth it. A good question about afterwards. UN mandates don't have a particularly good track record.
If you are going to put large numbers of boots on the ground, you need to answer 3 questions up front -
1) why are we there? 2) what does victory look like? 3) how do we know when we've got there?
then there's the killer question -
Then what?
It's the question that was never asked in Iraq - so you remove Saddam Hussein: then what?
No military expert but surely there's at least one other question:
how many are we going to need for our own territory?
This has got to be a turning point, surely? Over 100 dead...
I just don't know.
Terrible things like this happen. Rigby, London, Madrid, 9/11, Charlie Hebdo.. We're extremely shocked, and very angry for a few days..
And then life seems to go on.
I don't know if we're becoming hardened to it, but I just don't know if there will be a political gearshift or not.
I'm not holding my breath for the European continent. If it does happen, it'll be based on the electorate not those in charge at the moment. I think it'd take the actual election of politicians on the right/far-right for that.
In the UK, it might mean more resources for GCHQ/MI5/MI6 in the Defence Review, with a further beefing up of special forces and RAF strike forces. Theresa May's bill will sail through, Parliament and there could be further security measures to come over the next few months.
It could affect the Syria vote, if Cameron pushes for it again, but the choices there are very simple and, unpleasant, now: Asad or ISIS.
That's a no brainer - who'd go with ISIS? Hold on someone comes to mind.
The example of Saddam and Gaddafi shows we need such people.
This is huge if true. So huge it goes beyond comprehension.
Hopefully it kicks us into action in Syria. Maybe with this and the airliner bomb, there can be a coordinated international approach (UK, US, EU, Russia)?
How would bombing Syria have prevented this attack?
I'm talking boots on the ground to take out ISIS entirely.
You would require full deployment of much of the armed forces of the US and Russians and would result in many thousands of allied deaths, if it all went well. If it went badly???
And what do you do afterwards?
A heavy price, but to get rid of ISIS it may be worth it. A good question about afterwards. UN mandates don't have a particularly good track record.
If you are going to put large numbers of boots on the ground, you need to answer 3 questions up front -
1) why are we there? 2) what does victory look like? 3) how do we know when we've got there?
then there's the killer question -
Then what?
It's the question that was never asked in Iraq - so you remove Saddam Hussein: then what?
No military expert but surely there's at least one other question:
how many are we going to need for our own territory?
Protecting your own territory comes before anything else. That's assumed.
Comments
Nevertheless, their resources are not limitless and neither are they infallible.
The right people have to actually arrive there. That could easily take an hour or more even if they are sitting on duty.
Perhaps that is because their leaders ignored them.
For me, these are crocodile tears from our leaders. This is the system they believe in, and were taught to believe in by those who preceded them. Tonight is its product.
It is the utter failure of their policy of the last 30 years that is shaking them. Not the dreadful deaths in Paris. Shame on them.
To use an attack like tonight as a reason for more Government snooping is not necessarily the right reaction.
The difficulty is that these sorts of attacks don't need a huge organisation or much sophistication - just a few guys with automatic weapons in any random crowded place is enough.
Coordinating a wave of attacks sounds harder, but it must be what the intelligence services and governments most fear.
Labour are going to increasingly look like utter prats having him as leader in this new age, especially amongst the non-metro luvvies (ie much of the traditional Labour voter base).
Words just don't capture how awful this series of attacks is. Thoughts and prayers with all those affected.
#PenséePourLesVictimes
#Paris
Why should we risk our ppor armed forces, denuded of power by what is supposed to be a conservative government?
And what do you do afterwards?
https://twitter.com/mch7576/status/665329098734964736
well done the French.
American airlines cancel flights to France.
The DC shooter, two men and a car brought DC into a state of terrorised paralysis. All they need to do is set up another event in a few weeks, and then another a few weeks after that. The place would be in melt down.
But will never happen: America under Obama will prevaricate until he's out-of-office, we no longer count, Russia have not the logistical means, and the EU neither the will or the means.
So it will be ramped up and broadened air strikes, more money to the Kurds and training support.
The only serious alternative is to do a deal with the devil.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34814203
American airlines are delaying flights to Paris despite airports remaining open . Delta flying and United no comment at the moment.
The French authorities do indeed seem to have established a major line of thinking early on.
If that line lasts another few hours, its the runner.
Over 140 dead and still counting.
Her decisions may have ramifications for decades.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11986994/The-migrant-crisis-is-a-mere-gust-of-the-hurricane-that-will-soon-engulf-Europe.html
The people you should be blaming are not the ordinary French folk but the idiots who think that what's going on in Europe right now can continue without any reaction by the European people or any consequences to society.
In the same vane, we cannot really blame the poor immigrants who are at the camp nor indeed the millions streaming into Europe right now. The people to blame for all this mess is our useless politicans, journalists and other elite sort who think they can just wish niceness onto the world and regard ordinary people with ordinary concerns as ignorant plebs.
This is mis-government of colossal proportions, on a continental scale, with civilization-breaking consequences.
The security expert on the radio suggested Britain are high target, but it seems the networks aren't as strong as in France, but it seems that intell has been saying for a long time that trying to get something going.
Germany less so because they aren't involved in bombing etc.
How much police work and intelligence is going on at the borders of Germany, do you suppose?
It takes time and hard work to do intelligence. When many of those have thrown away their passports or are travelling on false ones, how do you vet such people?
May they rest in peace.
I weep for their families and friends.
Words are all very well and good. But they need to be defiant, inspirational and rallying words, linked to a clear understanding of the root-cause of the problem, and then backed and then followed through with clear resolve to take all necessary action to defeat this cancer.
And that's no matter where we are in the political cycle, no matter how long it takes, and no matter what the cost.
terrible, terrible day.
To keep the lid on Hell....
'May they rest in peace.
I weep for their families and friends'
158 mostly young people murdered by medieval vermin.
The hand wringing, happy clappy, solidarity crap isn't going to cut it this time.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm experiencing the equivalent of the Fall of Rome - of the modern age - in slow motion.
Try to sleep well everybody.
Too much pride. These people never admit they were wrong
I can almost hear people on here thinking " everyone I disagreed with was right all along, how can I save face?"
Schengen is dead
Moderate Moslems have a problem but they have to own it not blame it largely on infidels.
1) why are we there?
2) what does victory look like?
3) how do we know when we've got there?
then there's the killer question -
Then what?
It's the question that was never asked in Iraq - so you remove Saddam Hussein: then what?
Rumours are that the number involved is about a dozen.
If that is so, there are people missing.
Job done...
I wouldn't call for Cameron to go if god forbid terrorists did manage to realize their plans.
how many are we going to need for our own territory?